One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[AllyB]

I wondered why, when paying for Yale initially seemed so problematic, it was never suggested that Rory commute to her classes. I'm not sure what direction from Hartford, Stars Hollow is supposed to be but even if it was the furthest distance from New Haven it's still commutable and removing accommodation costs from Rory's schooling would have helped. Rory could have listened to study tapes and lecture recordings in her car while she drove and made the commute a useful study time.

[clack]

Yale doesn't allow off-campus commuting for freshmen.

[AllyB]

Yale doesn't allow off-campus commuting for freshmen.

Wow that seems crazy. So even if your family live two blocks away, you have to pay for accommodation and probably meals?

[txhorns79]

Wow that seems crazy. So even if your family live two blocks away, you have to pay for accommodation and probably meals?

 

It is a little crazy.  I wonder if you can simply ask for an exception if you are a townie.  In terms of Rory living in the dorms versus living at home, I would say in her situation, putting some distance between herself and her mother was healthy. 

[Kohola3]

In my day (granted that was last century) all freshmen had to live in the dorm, period.  Didn't matter if you lived around the block. It was intended to boost you into adulthood and taking responsibility for managing your life.

In my day (granted that was last century) all freshmen had to live in the dorm, period.  Didn't matter if you lived around the block. It was intended to boost you into adulthood and taking responsibility for managing your life.

[takalotti]

I'm only talking about chris paying for yale, a very expensive school, not paying child support to Lorelai. And based on lorelai and rory's reaction to chris offering money, seems they didn't like taking money from anyone for anything, that includes Chris.

What reaction was this? When he finally finished babbling about all of his new money, what he was doing for Gigi, checking if there was anything he could buy for Lorelai, he got around to questioning if there was something Rory might like. Lorelai gently and politely said there was nothing she needed or wanted. However, she would check with Rory - which she did. That seemed to me to be a courteous and normal response in such circumstances. It certainly would not have been appropriate for Lorelai to take money, castles or breweries from him.

When Lorelai did speak with Rory, she - somewhat timidly I thought - asked if Christopher could pay for Yale so she could get out from under her obligation to Richard and Emily. After some discussion of the pros and cons, it was decided that it made sense. Lorelai, Rory and Christopher then got together a few days later to catch up and get the college funding process in train. Rory thanked her father most sincerely.

It was all quite warm and civil. There were no nasty cracks or caustic jabs. Given family was involved, it was most un-Gilmore-like ;)

I'm not trying to speak for dirtypop, but I thought the original quote there was referring to a money offer Chris made earlier (either in Christopher Returns or some other interaction while Rory was in HS) and not the one he made post-grandfather-inheritance. I don't remember the scene exactly, but I also have a vague memory of Chris offering assistance and Lorelai turning him down. The only reason I have this vague memory is because I still remember feeling like it was sort of half assed on Chris' part, like he knew he'd get turned down based on past (pre-series) experience so it was an empty offer where he could feel like he did the right thing, but wouldn't have to follow through. But that's all colored by my PO of disliking Chris :)

Because money always came with strings attached. Chris [would have] had to promise to cut the check even if rory never wanted to spend time with him, which is nuts. IMO Most parents aren't cutting huge checks for kids that won't speak to them.

With respect, when did this take place? Certainly not at the time he agreed to pay for Yale. And I think the next time we saw Christopher he was touring the campus with Rory and bonding with Logan.

Again, not trying to speak for dirtypop, even though I did insert the words in brackets there... I think what was being said there was, "Lorelai didn't like taking money from anyone, including Chris, because money always comes with strings attached. The only way Lorelai would have been comfortable with taking money from Chris would have been if he agreed to no strings. Which would mean Chris would have had to promise to give them money whether or not Rory wanted to interact with him, and it seems unlikely Chris would want to agree to that. So there was no way for Chris to assist financially that both L and C would be happy with."

Yale doesn't allow off-campus commuting for freshmen.

Most schools have this "rule" but make exceptions for local kids who will live at home.

The point of the rule is to prevent freshman from finding an apartment off campus. The cynic would say this is because the schools want to make sure their housing gets filled instead of laying around empty not making money.

The rose-tinted glasses person would say this is because the newfound freedom of college is a lot to take in as it is; adding in the extra freedom and responsibility of living in an apartment can cause unnecessary problems. But these concerns don't apply to a kid living at home. You just send them information, and they go "yeah, okay" and then you live at home. I had several friends who did this at a private university. However, even though I lived in walking distance of the same school, my mom and I agreed it would be better for me to live on campus the first year to get fully into college life and make friends. So I agree it would be the healthier decision for Rory and Lorelai as well.

(Same deal with the food plans that are usually "mandatory" freshman year.)

Edited March 20, 2016 by takalotti

[photo fox]

To add to the voices above, my university "required" juniors and below to live on campus, but not if your permanent address was within reasonable driving distance. It was presumably to keep kids on campus where they could be supervised a bit, instead of living in some party house. A few local kids got around it by claiming to live with their parents and getting an apartment, and there wasn't much the school could do about it.

Permanent could mean your parents' address, but it could also mean your own address if you were paying your own bills and lived in town year-round. After all, what if you were 35? Or ex-military? Or married with kids? Surely they're not expected to love in a dorm?

I lived at home, and it definitely saved me a ton of money. In fact, I always got some back each semester to help with living expenses. So if money was really an issue, living at home would have helped. But then Rory and Lorelai put a lot more importance on the college "experience" than I ever did.

[dustylil]

takalotti, I stand second to no one in my dislike of Christopher!  However, I don't recall him making any  offer - half-assed or otherwise - to provide financial assistance for Rory before becoming a gazillionaire. He did once attempt to buy her a book. 

[dirtypop90]

If my memory serves me correct, chris had to make it clear he would pay for yale with no strings attached. I believe he actually used those words to ensure them rory didn't have to interact with him just because he was paying for yale. And he had to do that because rory only accepted the money so she could cut the strings attached with accepting her grandparent's money. IMO The only way they, both Lor and Rory, would accept money from chris is if they could take the money without being obligated to let him in, which is well nuts and not something most people would agree to.

 

And in lorelai's convo with rory re chris paying for yale, she didn't seem happy about it and, to me, came off as if she expected and wanted rory to say no, but she let her make the decision.

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[moonb]

I'm only talking about chris paying for yale, a very expensive school, not paying child support to Lorelai. And based on lorelai and rory's reaction to chris offering money, seems they didn't like taking money from anyone for anything, that includes Chris. Because money always came with strings attached. Chris had to promise to cut the check even if rory never wanted to spend time with him, which is nuts. IMO Most parents aren't cutting huge checks for kids that won't speak to them.

 

In Christopher's case, though, the strings attached to accepting his money might have been that financial assistance inevitably never materialized, at least before his inheritance in season 6. It's implied - and explicit in season 1 - that before PLG Lorelai figured she couldn't rely on either him or his money.  As far as Yale goes, though, Christopher's offer to pay didn't come with any demands on Rory, iirc. He doesn't seem like the type to attach strings, possibly because he's had so much experience avoiding them himself.  And actually, once he paid Rory's tuition, his and Rory's relationship was probably the best it ever had been on the show, not that that's saying much. 

 

he only way they, both Lor or Rory, would accept money from chris is if they could take the money without being obligated to let him in, which is well nuts and not something most people would agree to.

 

Yeah...Christopher's viewing of Lorelai and Rory as a package deal instead of his daughter and his daughter's mother, who needed his financial and emotional support, is definitely out of the ordinary for unmarried co-parents. I took Lorelai's subdued reaction to his paying tuition as not really knowing how to cope with Rory and Christopher having an entirely separate relationship without her. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by moonb

[dirtypop90]

In Christopher's case, though, the strings attached to accepting his money might have been that financial assistance inevitably never materialized, at least before his inheritance in season 6. It's implied - and explicit in season 1 - that before PLG Lorelai figured she couldn't rely on either him or his money.  As far as Yale goes, though, Christopher's offer to pay didn't come with any demands on Rory, iirc. He doesn't seem like the type to attach strings, possibly because he's had so much experience avoiding them himself.  And actually, once he paid Rory's tuition, his and Rory's relationship was probably the best it ever had been on the show, not that that's saying much. 

 

I don't see that as a string. If chris stopped paying, she just would've been in the same position she was in before he offered to pay: using her grandparent's money or taking out loans like most other students. 

 

Doesn't really matter what chris did or didn't do in the past to me. The fact that the money didn't come with even a demand that rory answer when he calls was odd. plenty of students can't stand their parents but have to deal with them, in a respectful manner, if they are footing the bill and that is made clear. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[moonb]

Doesn't really matter what chris did or didn't do in the past to me. The fact that the money didn't come with even a demand that rory answer when he calls was odd. plenty of students can't stand their parents but have to deal with them, in a respectful manner, if they are footing the bill and that is made clear.

 

 I actually wish that Chris/Rory building a reasonable relationship had been given more time on the show. The only time we saw Christopher remotely reprimanding Rory was over being in touch with Lorelai once she was with Luke in season 5. The next time we see him in season 6, he's back to asking Lorelai what his parental opinions "should" be with regards to Logan.  It would have been nice to see Christopher and Rory move forward from that fight and Straub's death to some kind of understanding. 

[andromeda331]

In Christopher's case, though, the strings attached to accepting his money might have been that financial assistance inevitably never materialized, at least before his inheritance in season 6. It's implied - and explicit in season 1 - that before PLG Lorelai figured she couldn't rely on either him or his money.  As far as Yale goes, though, Christopher's offer to pay didn't come with any demands on Rory, iirc. He doesn't seem like the type to attach strings, possibly because he's had so much experience avoiding them himself.  And actually, once he paid Rory's tuition, his and Rory's relationship was probably the best it ever had been on the show, not that that's saying much

I agree I don't think it was much strings then wondering if it was going to fall through. Given how Rory wasn't

surprised by his credit card being declined or Lorelai about him lying about how his business was doing. I can

see why they wanted to be sure Christopher paying for Yale would be him, paying for Yale.

[dirtypop90]

 

Yeah...Christopher's viewing of Lorelai and Rory as a package deal instead of his daughter and his daughter's mother, who needed his financial and emotional support, is definitely out of the ordinary for unmarried co-parents. I took Lorelai's subdued reaction to his paying tuition as not really knowing how to cope with Rory and Christopher having an entirely separate relationship without her. 

 

But Lorelai also viewed her and rory as a package deal. After finding out chris had a stable home and job in PLG, instead of just trying to talk to him about a visitation schedule for rory, she threw herself at him and presented them as a package deal. And, after sookie's wedding, she ignored chris's calls because she was upset he was marrying sherry, instead of picking up the phone and trying to talk to him about rory to ensure chris and rory could continue to build a relationship even though her and chris weren't going to happen. I think lorelai also had an issue with the idea of chris and rory building a separate relationship without her. She wanted chris to get it together for both of them, not just rory.

[Melancholy]

As I read it, Rory generally was respectful and available to Christopher other than two very specific fights- after Chris left Lorelai for Sherri at the start of S3 and after Rory perceived Chris as sabotaging Lorelai's relationship with Luke before the WBB fiasco (with direct repercussions) and after Chris actually sabotaged Luke/Lorelai in WBB (even though I don't think Rory and Chris ever had a storyline about interacting). However, Chris really wouldn't need strings attached to his gift of Yale money. Rory's not the problem in their relationship. Unless she's recently justifiably angry with Chris for pulling crap with her mother, Rory's right there to start a relationship despite Chris's transgressions against Rory. Rory might be a little distant and artificial with Chris- especially in the later seasons- but I view that as a function of how she doesn't know her father very well rather than Rory being purposefully undaughterly. Chris don't put "weekly dinners" strings on Rory for paying for Yale because IMO, unlike Emily/Richard, Chris didn't want to commit to spend that much with Rory. He only wanted to reach out to Rory sporadically and rarely on his terms and according to his moods. 

 

It's interesting that Rory insisted on a loan with Richard/Emily for Yale at the end of S3, even though Richard wanted to make the Yale tuition a gift. However, she took the gift of tuition from Christopher. I'm not completely faulting Rory. She has good reasons to change her mind about whether to take a gift instead of a loan. It's a father's job to put their kid through college, if they have the resources, much more so than grandparents. Chris was making up for years of no child-support. In S3, Rory was taking Lorelai's adult-cues on how to ask for money while once Rory got to Yale, she absorbed the attitudes of kids who were being put through university by their parents. She was closer to the graduation and looking at closer at how life's expensive even if you live a crappy apartment in the slums or how journalism's an unbelievably competitive field and she was typically more jaded as a college junior than a high school senior. However, it does also reflect Rory's brattier, more entitled sentiments in the later seasons. Not the tuition, so much as stuff like:

 

RICHARD: Perhaps your father can reimburse me for the five cases of scotch I had to send the men in the bursar's office.

RORY: I sure he would be happy to.

 

Ick. I'm usually with Rory- but damn girl, yes take tuition, but own up yourself to something as rude as failing to tell the grandparents who were putting you through school that it's no longer their obligation because your mostly entitled hostility against them. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by Melancholy

[andromeda331]

I actually wish that Chris/Rory building a reasonable relationship had been given more time on the show. The only time we saw Christopher remotely reprimanding Rory was over being in touch with Lorelai once she was with Luke in season 5. The next time we see him in season 6, he's back to asking Lorelai what his parental opinions "should" be with regards to Logan.  It would have been nice to see Christopher and Rory move forward from that fight and Straub's death to some kind of understanding.

So do I. I hate Christopher but there were so many things they could have done to build up a Chris/Rory

relationship. Without changing the Lorelai-Rory relationship. They could have kept him coming and going

but referenced him calling his kid often during the 16 years instead of him having no clue his kid didn't play

sports. That could have been a good start to building a relationship. Or in Season two when he had a place

and a job, that would have been a good time too. To spend time together, and for Rory. Not to impress his

girlfriend. Did Rory ever visit? They mention that Sherry was his wife. Did she go to their wedding? It never

sounded like it. There was another good chance as you mention after his father dies. But nope not then either.  

Edited March 20, 2016 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

But Lorelai also viewed her and rory as a package deal. After finding out chris had a stable home and job in PLG, instead of just trying to talk to him about a visitation schedule for rory, she threw herself at him and presented them as a package deal. And, after sookie's wedding, she ignored chris's calls because she was upset he was marrying sherry, instead of picking up the phone and trying to talk to him about rory to ensure chris and rory could continue to build a relationship even though her and chris weren't going to happen. I think lorelai also had an issue with the idea of chris and rory building a separate relationship without her. She wanted chris to get it together for both of them, not just rory.

At Sookie's wedding Christopher promised Rory, he was going to be there this time. Rory was upset all on her 

own that time. She even told Christopher that when he showed up on the Haunted Leg that and he accused Lorelai of

keeping Rory from him. Rory went off on him on her own about how she didn't want to speak to him and for him

to go be someone else's dad. 

[dirtypop90]

 I actually wish that Chris/Rory building a reasonable relationship had been given more time on the show. The only time we saw Christopher remotely reprimanding Rory was over being in touch with Lorelai once she was with Luke in season 5. The next time we see him in season 6, he's back to asking Lorelai what his parental opinions "should" be with regards to Logan.  It would have been nice to see Christopher and Rory move forward from that fight and Straub's death to some kind of understanding. 

 

Did you mean rory reprimanding chris over him calling lorelai for help with gigi? because that actually goes to my UO that rory was a disrespectful brat who frequently got out of line. But yea, for me, it was never clear what exactly they needed/wanted chris to be for rory, likely because chris and rory couldn't get too close and pose a threat to the center of the show, the mom-daughter relationship.  To me, him knocking up sherri wasn't a good reason for rory to shut him out. Yea it shut the door on lor/chris, but I don't get why they (lor and chris) couldn't talk about rory and chris's relationship. It was all or nothing for all of them, not just Chris.

 

A friend of mine who watched GG when it aired (I didn't) always thought that rory just couldn't have a dad/father figure, which is one of the reasons lorelai couldn't marry until rory was out of the house. It was her opinion that father-daughter relationships tend to eclipse mother-daughter relationships on family shows; audiences go gaga over father-daughter relationships and typically don't over mother-daughter relationships. I thought that was interesting and kind of agree. If Chris was the best dad ever, that would've screwed with two major relationships: Lor/Rory and L/L. 

 

And it was my UO that Rory was a disrespectful brat to christopher AND her mom and grandparents.

At Sookie's wedding Christopher promised Rory, he was going to be there this time. Rory was upset all on her 

own that time. She even told Christopher that when he showed up on the Haunted Leg that and he accused Lorelai of

keeping Rory from him. Rory went off on him on her own about how she didn't want to speak to him and for him

to go be someone else's dad. 

 

I sort of answered this above. I never understood why chris marrying sherri and having another baby meant he couldn't be there for rory. I don't understand why it was all or nothing. He could be gigi and rory's dad. 

 

I believe rory said during that ep that she wouldn't go to his wedding because it was the wrong wedding, and I'm like what is with these people? It's like blended families didn't exist in that town. Rory was what 17? So the whole "go be someone else's dad" didn't work for me.

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[txhorns79]

Did you mean rory reprimanding chris over him calling lorelai for help with gigi? because that actually goes to my UO that rory was a disrespectful brat who frequently got out of line.

 

I would agree that Rory was out of line in that moment.  Her mother was a grown up, and it wasn't up to Rory to try and control her relationship with Chris.  And honestly, what did Rory's request say about how she viewed her mother? 

Edited March 20, 2016 by txhorns79

[moonb]

Rory was out of line with regards to Lorelai and Chris not being allowed to be in touch, mostly because it's unrealistic and impractical since they are both her parents. Imo, she was much *more* out of line with respect to Lorelai in Secret and Loans and with Emily and Richard during season 6. With regards to the Christopher/Gigi/Lorelai situation in season 5, I feel like she wanted some real boundaries developed between herself and her parents, even if she couldn't articulate that. Clearly Lorelai wasn't great at doing that either - she did promptly lie to Rory and to omit telling Luke about Chris's call.  The show vaguely addresses this again in season 7 when Rory is mad at Lorelai for sleeping with Chris and possibly jeopardizing *Rory's* relationship with him. Which makes Rory's almost non-reaction to her parents' marriage and later divorce seem really weird.

 

Agreed with everything above that Rory should have had her own separate relationship with Christopher....but then keeping Chris around as a romantic interest for Lorelai in season 7 would have been harder to buy ;). 

 

A friend of mine who watched GG when it aired (I didn't) always thought that rory just couldn't have a dad/father figure, which is one of the reasons lorelai couldn't marry until rory was out of the house. It was her opinion that father-daughter relationships tend to eclipse mother-daughter relationships on family shows; audiences go gaga over father-daughter relationships and typically don't over mother-daughter relationships. I thought that was interesting and kind of agree. If Chris was the best dad ever, that would've screwed with two major relationships: Lor/Rory and L/L.

 

 

Except for Luke/April, widely seen as the low point of the series, ha. But that is an interesting point. Luke is an entirely absentee dad to April until her abrupt entrance into his life, Mr. Kim doesn't exist, and Lorelai and Richard's relationship is even more fractured and distant than Lorelai's with Emily. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by moonb

[Melancholy]

I don't know if this is popular or not, but I didn't really have a problem with Rory telling Chris to stay away from Lorelai. I get that TECHNICALLY it's wrong because it's Rory controlling who her mother sees without informing Lorelai. However, i just agree with Rory a lot that Chris has big romantic toxic destructive hold on Lorelai and it destroys Lorelai's happiness because Lorelai can't break free of Chris but Chris just always seeks to flit into Lorelai's and leave for one reason or another. I can't really fault Rory for trying to fix that, especially since Rory tried to enforce it with her own pain and abandonment because Chris did a number on Rory too. 

 

i don't agree that Chris and Lorelai were bound to see each other and always have each other in their lives once Rory got out Lorelai's home and into Yale. If they chose to play it that way after Rory left for college, Chris could have been a father to Rory but never saw Lorelai except for major events in Rory's life like graduation or weddings. And then, Chris, Lorelai, and Rory would be in the same room- so there'd be less concern that this Chris/Lorelai contact FOR RORY was actually just about their love affair. This "Chris and Lorelai will always be in each other's life FOR RORY" is so disingenuous. It's hardly ever for Rory. Of course, it's more disruptive to Rory's life when Lorelai and Luke are fighting or Lorelai and her parents are fighting because Luke/Emily/Richard are the real extended family to Rory's/Lorelai's immediate family.  By the way, I think that was part of the logic behind Luke understanding without so much as a word why Lorelai was back to FNDs only a several weeks after they got back together after Lorelai promised to cut E/R out of her life but getting upset at Chris entering Lorelai's life in early S6. Of course, the big reason that is that Chris is the romantic rival, himself, and Lorelai's parents aren't. However, the secondary reason is that I think Luke felt E/R were impossible to cut out of Lorelai's life, but Lorelai could make a choice to end a relationship with Chris without it affecting their family or Rory. 

[dirtypop90]

 

 

Except for Luke/April, widely seen as the low point of the series, ha. But that is an interesting point. Luke is an entirely absentee dad to April until her abrupt entrance into his life, Mr. Kim doesn't exist, and Lorelai and Richard's relationship is even more fractured and distant than Lorelai's with Emily. 

 

Yea but April was a side character so her relationships aren't really important to that audience. They are not core GG relationships. Let's say this show was about April, and the audience got to see her relationship with luke vs her relationship with her mom, her relationship with luke would've gotten most of the attention. 

 

Now that you mention it I realize that they really didn't even try with lorelai and richard's relationship.

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

i don't agree that Chris and Lorelai were bound to see each other and always have each other in their lives once Rory got out Lorelai's home and into Yale. If they chose to play it that way after Rory left for college, Chris could have been a father to Rory but never saw Lorelai except for major events in Rory's life like graduation or weddings. And then, Chris, Lorelai, and Rory would be in the same room- so there'd be less concern that this Chris/Lorelai contact FOR RORY was actually just about their love affair. This "Chris and Lorelai will always be in each other's life FOR RORY" is so disingenuous. It's hardly ever for Rory. Of course, it's more disruptive to Rory's life when Lorelai and Luke are fighting or Lorelai and her parents are fighting because Luke/Emily/Richard are the real extended family to Rory's/Lorelai's immediate family.  By the way, I think that was part of the logic behind Luke understanding without so much as a word why Lorelai was back to FNDs only a several weeks after they got back together after Lorelai promised to cut E/R out of her life but getting upset at Chris entering Lorelai's life in early S6. Of course, the big reason that is that Chris is the romantic rival, himself, and Lorelai's parents aren't. However, the secondary reason is that I think Luke felt E/R were impossible to cut out of Lorelai's life, but Lorelai could make a choice to end a relationship with Chris without it affecting their family or Rory. 

 

Chris and Lorelai weren't bound to see each other but they wanted to because they did see themselves as friends. They've know each other since they were 6. They had a relationship for many years pre-rory. And he's the only one from Lorelai's old life she's friends with. So I get why loreali wanted to maintain a friedship with chris and be apart of his life. I don't think it's crazy. I would bet chris and lorelai are still friends. They looked chummy during rory's graduation episode, despite the failed marriage.

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[solotrek]

I thought Rory treated people exactly how I would imagine someone growing up with their mother as a best friend rather than a parent would treat people.

[dustylil]

I believe rory said during that ep that she wouldn't go to his wedding because it was the wrong wedding,

 

If my memory serves me correct, chris had to make it clear he would pay for yale with no strings attached. I believe he actually used those words to ensure them rory didn't have to interact with him just because he was paying for yale.

 

With respect, In which episodes do those scenes and bits of dialogue  take place? Neither rings the faintest bell with me.

[Melancholy]

No, I agree that Chris and Lorelai weren't bound to see each other. They saw each other because of friendship, but even more than that, their friendship was motored in the televised seasons by romance. Chris was always in love with Lorelai. Lorelai was regarded Chris as the man that she wants to want. Even Lorelai, herself, said that she sabotaged her other romances by S2 because she was so hung up on Chris as the ideal- and Lorelai regarded herself saved from that fate from what, *Sherry*? This is what Rory was reacting to. She was technically wrong to manipulate a separation, but emotionally, Rory was hitting on a toxic reality in the Chris/Lorelai relationship and how it's never time well-spent between the two of them because it's all yearning for a romance that cannot be be disguised as platonic friendship. 

 

Maybe we'll see in the revival if Lorelai and Chris could be friends/co-parents without the whole thing be motored by romantic subtext.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Melancholy

[dirtypop90]

With respect, In which episodes do those scenes and bits of dialogue  take place? Neither rings the faintest bell with me.

 

I just watched the first one. the scene happened right after chris crashed FND in season 3 because lorelai and rory were ignoring his calls. rory says that to lorelai as they are walking to the store.

 

The second scene happened during one of chris's meeting with lorelai where he offered to pay for yale. I don't remember which one  exactly but I distinctly remember him saying "no strings."

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[dirtypop90]

No, I agree that Chris and Lorelai weren't bound to see each other. They saw each other because of friendship, but even more than that, their friendship was motored in the televised seasons by romance. Chris was always in love with Lorelai. Lorelai was regarded Chris as the man that she wants to want. Even Lorelai, herself, said that she sabotaged her other romances by S2 because she was so hung up on Chris as the ideal- and Lorelai regarded herself saved from that fate from what, *Sherry*? This is what Rory was reacting to. She was technically wrong to manipulate a separation, but emotionally, Rory was hitting on a toxic reality in the Chris/Lorelai relationship and how it's never time well-spent between the two of them because it's all yearning for a romance that cannot be be disguised as platonic friendship. 

 

Maybe we'll see in the revival if Lorelai and Chris could be friends/co-parents without the whole thing be motored by romantic subtext.

 

Ok. But I always felt there was a lot of telling and not showing when it came to chris and lorelai yearning for a romance. I didn't get that at all from lorelai in season one. I've said before I thought she clearly rejected him in christopher returns because he couldn't give her what she needed. I didn't think chris had anything to do with her walking away from Max, so I was very surprised when in season 2 she said she had been sabotaging relationships because she was hung up on chris. We actually didn't see her sabotage one relationship because of feelings for chris. And tbh I didn't buy chris as being so hung up on lorelai either. He left her and luke (and every other relationship she had) alone until emily got in his ear. He was supportive when she called him and told him she was marrying Max in season 2. And when he first called for help with Gigi, he didn't seem to have romance on the brain. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by dirtypop90

[txhorns79]

I don't know if this is popular or not, but I didn't really have a problem with Rory telling Chris to stay away from Lorelai. I get that TECHNICALLY it's wrong because it's Rory controlling who her mother sees without informing Lorelai. However, i just agree with Rory a lot that Chris has big romantic toxic destructive hold on Lorelai and it destroys Lorelai's happiness because Lorelai can't break free of Chris but Chris just always seeks to flit into Lorelai's and leave for one reason or another. I can't really fault Rory for trying to fix that, especially since Rory tried to enforce it with her own pain and abandonment because Chris did a number on Rory too.

 

I understand this point of view, I just think it's really not up to Rory to try to work out her mother's issues for her.  If Lorelai can't successfully maintain a relationship with Luke because Chris is also in her life, then her problems are well beyond anything Rory can do to help.  

[Taryn74]

I just watched the first one. the scene happened right after chris crashed FND in season 3 because lorelai and rory were ignoring his calls. rory says that to lorelai as they are walking to the store.

 

The second scene happened during one of chris's meeting with lorelai where he offered to pay for yale. I don't remember which one  exactly but I distinctly remember him saying "no strings."

 

 

From Haunted Leg -

 

RORY: I can’t believe he just came over.

LORELAI: He misses you.

RORY: He misses you.

LORELAI: We’re very missable. Honey, he loves you so much, he didn’t mean to mess –

RORY: No, he never means to, but he does. And I don’t care what he says or does, I’m not going to this wedding.

LORELAI: You don’t have to.

RORY: Good.

LORELAI: But you might, at a later point in your life, when you’re not so angry and you make up with your dad, as we both know you will, you might be sorry you missed it.

RORY: It’s the wrong wedding.

 

From Slippin' Em Bread -

 

CHRIS: Weren't Emily and Richard paying for Yale?

LORELAI: Yes, they were.

CHRIS: Something going on there?

LORELAI: Everything's fine.

CHRIS: Why'd she take time off? What happened there?

LORELAI: It's - it's a long story. Listen, Chris, just so we're clear -

CHRIS: We're clear. I'm providing. That's it. I'm just doing what I should have done years ago.

LORELAI: Good.

CHRIS: And it will remain good. Honest.

LORELAI [satisfied]: Okay.

[dustylil]

dirtypop90, thanks for the citation regarding "the wrong wedding".

 

However, in none of the three scenes concerning Christopher's money in He's Slippin' 'em Bread....Dig, the first with Christopher and  Lorelai discussing his newly acquired wealth and he asking if he could buy something for her or for Rory (and Yale funding was not even mentioned), the second with Lorelai and Rory discussing his offer and deciding on Yale and finally the third with all three of them was there anything about there being "no strings".

Here is the exchange between Rory and her father in that scene -

RORY: Dad, I - I thought about it, and Mom and I talked about it, and I think it would be really great if you could pay for Yale.

CHRIS [happy]: Absolutely, absolutely! Nothing would make me happier.

RORY: Good. Thank you.

CHRIS: I am there, I am so there.

LORELAI: That's great.

CHRIS: Let me pay for Chilton too.

LORELAI: Well, that's already taken care of.

RORY: You know, Yale's kind of expensive.

CHRIS: But I'm loaded - didn't you tell her? I'm loaded!

LORELAI: I told her.

CHRIS: So, how do I do this? Do I give you the cash, or do I pay Yale? Do they take checks or does it have to be a money order? What is a money order anyway? I mean, how is it different from a check? Isn't a check a piece of paper forwarding money? What's the difference?

LORELAI: Whoa, Chris, slow down.

CHRIS: This makes me so happy, I can't tell you, Rory.

RORY: It means a lot to me, Dad. This was excellent timing, believe me.

 

To me it sounded like a thrilled father and an appreciative daughter, nothing angry or defensive on either side. And their relationship continued quite happily for sometime to come.

[txhorns79]

"no strings".

 

I'd say it seems fairly well understood, and given that nothing came of it during the series (at least that I recall), what difference does it ultimately make whether it was said directly?  In this case, actions spoke louder than words.  

Edited March 21, 2016 by txhorns79

[dirtypop90]

^IA. Even if he didn't say so directly, it was clear from the scenes that chris would be providing the money no strings attached. 

 

Thanks for the lines Taryn74!

[readster]

Yep, Chris decided to give money to his oldest daughter, get her out of debt and not owing anyone and decided to do it as a father and not with some catch like the elder Gilmores or how his parents were. Speaking of Christopher inheriting all of his grandfather's money for obvious reasons, I would have liked one scene between Chris and Francine where she ended up apologizing for the way Straub was including: "You know how he could be set in his ways and sadly, I went with them, but in our circle, you stand by your man." "I'm sorry it ruined things more for you than not marrying Lorelai and Rory being born, because it wasn't like Rory had a choice." Straub went to his grave still at odds with Christopher even if he blamed everyone else for Chris's faults and never acknowledging Rory as his grand daughter. 

[snarktini]

I saw the "no strings" thing as purely positive and thought it was important considering their families and how money has been used as a weapon. I hear it as: "I want to help you because I can, and won't put conditions on it." Which, IMO, is the only way to gift money to an adult. If you don't want to give freely, don't give. There was every reason to believe Rory would stay in touch and maintain a relationship anyway, over the long haul (a few family spats notwithstanding). And considering his generosity, she may be even more inclined to do so. But demanding that is manipulative.

[andromeda331]

Chris decided to give money to his oldest daughter, get her out of debt and not owing anyone and decided to do it as a father and not with some catch like the elder Gilmores or how his parents were. Speaking of Christopher inheriting all of his grandfather's money for obvious reasons, I would have liked one scene between Chris and Francine where she ended up apologizing for the way Straub was including: "You know how he could be set in his ways and sadly, I went with them, but in our circle, you stand by your man." "I'm sorry it ruined things more for you than not marrying Lorelai and Rory being born, because it wasn't like Rory had a choice." Straub went to his grave still at odds with Christopher even if he blamed everyone else for Chris's faults and never acknowledging Rory as his grand daughter.

I really wish they had Francine do that more then Straub. Because she later would end up babysitting Gigi a

lot. She even continued to babysit Gigi after Christopher and Lorelai got married. And yet never saw Rory

again after that one time in Christopher Returns. How she could spend so much time with Gigi while

ignoring her other granddaughter?

[shron17]

I never understood why chris marrying sherri and having another baby meant he couldn't be there for rory. I don't understand why it was all or nothing. He could be gigi and rory's dad.

Of course he could, but he had to choose to do that.  Instead he left without talking to Rory and asked Lorelai to tell her.  If Chris was so determined to be Rory's dad in the future he should have reassured her that he would always be there for her no matter how many other kids he had and no matter who he married.  And he should have told her himself.  Though Chris's first mistake was making promises to both Lorelai and Rory to be there for them together when he hadn't broken up with Sherri.  Even Jess knew better than that.

 

Christopher did have a bad track record of keeping his promises to Rory over the years.  I couldn't blame her one bit if she had trouble trusting whatever he said.

 

From Presenting Lorelai Gilmore there's this:

LORELAI: Now, I know you would rather sit through "Endless Love" than ever be apart of this scene again. But this is very important to your daughter and she has never asked you for anything, and although no one's keeping track, it would seem that your constant non-presence in her life and your lack of ever showing up when you say you're going to or calling when you say you're going to or basically doing anything when you say you're going to would tend to indicate that you owe her, big time. Now before you say no, I want you to take a minute and remember you have a great daughter who needs you and she has a mother who will hunt you down like a half-priced Kate Spade purse if you disappoint her.

 

and this

LORELAI: Hey Little Debbie, your dad is definitely gonna be there.

RORY: You're kidding!

LORELAI: No, he's gonna walk you down the stairs, and turn you in a circle, watch you curtsy, and announce that Rory Gilmore is officially open for business.

RORY: I can't believe it. And he definitely said definitely?

LORELAI: Definitely.

RORY: So there's a fifty/fifty chance.

LORELAI: I don't know. He sounded pretty sure, I'd say sixty/forty.

 

From He's Slipping 'Em Bread... Dig?

RORY: Look. I know it's a slippery slope. Dad is Dad.

LORELAI: Yes, he is.

RORY: But I'm pretty sure I want to do this.

LORELAI: Well, if you're sure, you're sure. We'll call him.

 

And from Christopher himself in Christopher Returns (after his proposal to Lorelai--apparently he thought they had to be married for him to have a relationship with Rory):

CHRISTOPHER: I’ve been looking for the one Lor, that elusive soul mate - I really have, I just believe it’s you, it’s always been you.

LORELAI: Chris come on.

CHRISTOPHER: Rory might be my only child.

LORELAI: That’s not true. If Tony Randall can crank one out in his seventies you have decades left to spawn.

CHRISTOPHER: No. I don’t know how much I miss Rory until I see her like this. It’s....it’s easier staying away.

LORELAI: No. Don’t stay away. Don’t. Rory needs her dad.

 

And in Norman Mailer I'm Pregnant:

CHRIS: Oh, God, I am so sorry, Lor.

LORELAI: Oh, for what?

CHRIS: Well, I hardly ever call you, or Rory, but the minute I’m in trouble…

LORELAI: Well, that’s what we’re here for.

 

These instances all lead me to believe that it was never Lorelai or Rory pushing Christopher away.  The only mention of Rory refusing to talk her father was that brief period at the beginning of season 3.

Edited March 21, 2016 by shron17

[dustylil]

Christopher did have a bad track record of keeping his promises to Rory over the years.  I couldn't blame her one bit if she had trouble trusting whatever he said

 

Even well into Season 6, he had trouble keeping his word to his elder daughter. When she and Logan - pretty much on the fly -  decided to move into together, by happenstance their first visitor was Christopher. Rory told her father  that she had not yet had a chance to speak Lorelai about her new living arrangements but would be doing so that evening. She asked that he not mention it until she had an opportunity to speak to her mother. Christopher agreed.

He had barely left the apartment  when he telephoned Lorelai with the news. Rory learned of this when  she - as she had said she would - called her mother that evening.

Now if Rory had gone some time - perhaps a week or several days  - without notifying her mother, then Christopher should have spoken to Rory and told her he felt he could no longer keep his promise. And that either one of them should tell Lorelai within the next day or so. But to pretty much leave Rory's home after giving his word and go blabbing, seemed childish and thoughtless - even for Christopher.

 

I didn't buy chris as being so hung up on lorelai either

 

I don't know about that. That a man in his late thirties - and father of two - would view the greatest day of his life as taking place when he was fourteen and was kissed by Lorelai doesn't strike me someone as all that emotionally well-balanced.

[txhorns79]

Now if Rory had gone some time - perhaps a week or several days  - without notifying her mother, then Christopher should have spoken to Rory and told her he felt he could no longer keep his promise. And that either one of them should tell Lorelai within the next day or so. But to pretty much leave Rory's home after giving his word and go blabbing, seemed childish and thoughtless - even for Christopher.

 

I would think conspiring with your daughter to keep secrets from her mother would honestly be the childish and thoughtless thing to do.  Though I suppose it depends on your view of parenting, and whether you view your child as a friend to share secrets with that you'll keep from the other parent.  I certainly know people who view that as their role in their child's life, and I can see why someone might think that is preferable to a more traditional parent/child relationship. 

 

Perhaps the real lesson here is you shouldn't trust your father to keep secrets about your important life events from your mother.   

Edited March 22, 2016 by txhorns79

[dirtypop90]

These instances all lead me to believe that it was never Lorelai or Rory pushing Christopher away. The only mention of Rory refusing to talk her father was that brief period at the beginning of season 3.

I understand that Christopher was welcome to come hang out in stars hollow with Rory. But I was never convinced that Lorelai a. Wanted Chris's hand in actually parenting Rory or b. Was supportive of Chris and Rory having a separate relationship without her.

While watching season 2, I was confused by Lorelei never brining up visitation or child support with Christopher even after he got a job in season 2, and instead deciding to throw herself at him. If that was me, and I'm guessing most other single moms, the respond would've been different. It would've been, "great! Now let's talk about you shouldering some of this responsibility for our daughter." There would've been more questions about his home in Boston and whether Rory could catch a train to visit him in Boston every other weekend and less about whether his girlfriend has seen him naked, ya know? And all of season 2, while Rory and Chris are talking every week, even after Sherri left for Paris, there was no discussion of changing the status quo. I'm not putting all this on Lorelei. Chris was also free to bring up the issue. I suppose my annoyance is more with the show's handling of Chris and Rory. the show dropped Chris/Rory at the end of season 2 when it dropped Chris/lor, and I don't think we were given a good explanation why. I don't get the show's decision to act like blended families didn't exist, and so Chris couldn't be a dad to Rory while being a husband to Sherri and dad to Gigi. IMO the failed Lorelei/Chris reunion shouldn't have killed the relationship between Rory and Chris. I don't believe a 17 year old would be that upset over her parents, who have never been together during her lifetime, not being able to rekindle, such that they wouldn't want to have a relationship with their father over it. I would understand it more if Rory was a young child when the failed reunion happened, but Rory at 17 shutting her dad out because he couldn't be with her mom didn't work for me.

[dirtypop90]

.

I don't know about that. That a man in his late thirties - and father of two - would view the greatest day of his life as taking place when he was fourteen and was kissed by Lorelai doesn't strike me someone as all that emotionally well-balanced.

That was Christopher after being dumped by Sherri and left with a baby correct? The Christopher we were introduced to didn't seem stuck on lorelai. He quickly found someone else after lorelai rejected him in season one and seemed totally fine with her marrying max. He also didn't seem hung up on lorelai when he was with Sherri in season 2.

I personally struggled with the new Christopher. I didn't buy that he wouldn't just find someone else after Sherri, especially after he got all that money, and would be so hung up on lorelai. He was a good looking, rich guy living in a big city. he would've had too many options for him to be sitting around waiting on the mother of his adult child to pick him. That was actually one of many problems I had with the Chris/lorelai/Luke triangle. Luke and lorelai didn't have many options being stuck in that small town but Chris did. He wasn't stuck there and he was loaded so him fighting over lorelai didn't work for me.

Edited March 22, 2016 by dirtypop90

[readster]

Even well into Season 6, he had trouble keeping his word to his elder daughter. When she and Logan - pretty much on the fly -  decided to move into together, by happenstance their first visitor was Christopher. Rory told her father  that she had not yet had a chance to speak Lorelai about her new living arrangements but would be doing so that evening. She asked that he not mention it until she had an opportunity to speak to her mother. Christopher agreed.

He had barely left the apartment  when he telephoned Lorelai with the news. Rory learned of this when  she - as she had said she would - called her mother that evening.

Now if Rory had gone some time - perhaps a week or several days  - without notifying her mother, then Christopher should have spoken to Rory and told her he felt he could no longer keep his promise. And that either one of them should tell Lorelai within the next day or so. But to pretty much leave Rory's home after giving his word and go blabbing, seemed childish and thoughtless - even for Christopher.

 

I don't know about that. That a man in his late thirties - and father of two - would view the greatest day of his life as taking place when he was fourteen and was kissed by Lorelai doesn't strike me someone as all that emotionally well-balanced.

I hated that line and what made me hate Christopher and that hate continued because of that line. Much like his parents, Emily and Richard, they were stuck in the past believing their best days were behind them and that everyone else was just, this. I know it was more of AS-P writing trying to give Rory a pep talk from her dad, but from then on out. Christopher was just a dumbass and that continued on through the series. 

[moonb]

When she and Logan - pretty much on the fly -  decided to move into together, by happenstance their first visitor was Christopher. Rory told her father  that she had not yet had a chance to speak Lorelai about her new living arrangements but would be doing so that evening. She asked that he not mention it until she had an opportunity to speak to her mother. Christopher agreed.

He had barely left the apartment  when he telephoned Lorelai with the news. Rory learned of this when  she - as she had said she would - called her mother that evening.

 

This scene, plus his dealing with bratty, out of control toddler Gigi, are my very favorite Christopher scenes besides Christopher Returns. He's genuinely attempting to be a dad in his late 30s, and 20 years after the fact, but it's a miniscule moment of growth for someone who was always such a lightweight. His talking to Lorelai was like an odd inversion of Lorelai's "mom code," except that, being Chris, he couldn't even be firm or consistent about saying, "Sorry, Rory. I can't keep my word on this." And it's a gray area when he's dealing with a 21-year-old living with her boyfriend instead of a teenager, albeit a 21-year-old who's going to college on Chris's dime. 

 

ETA:

IMO the failed Lorelei/Chris reunion shouldn't have killed the relationship between Rory and Chris. I don't believe a 17 year old would be that upset over her parents, who have never been together during her lifetime, not being able to rekindle, such that they wouldn't want to have a relationship with their father over it.

 

Realistically, there should have been a lot more emotional fallout on Rory's part in season 7 when Lorelai and Chris did reunite and marry. Rory's upset, but more upset that she wasn't at Lorelai's wedding than that her parents married once she was grown and not living at home full time anymore. She would have had the same reaction, imo, at missing Lorelai marrying Max or Luke. And then when Lorelai and Chris split up, she's not surprised and only says that she's on Lorelai's side (well, ok, that one I'll give her).  It would have been interesting, imo, if Rory's season 5 character regression and dropping out of Yale had come on the heels of a Lorelai/Christopher failed marriage. I could see that really messing with Rory's head in a big way. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by moonb

[dirtypop90]

ETA:

Realistically, there should have been a lot more emotional fallout on Rory's part in season 7 when Lorelai and Chris did reunite and marry. Rory's upset, but more upset that she wasn't at Lorelai's wedding than that her parents married once she was grown and not living at home full time anymore. She would have had the same reaction, imo, at missing Lorelai marrying Max or Luke. And then when Lorelai and Chris split up, she's not surprised and only says that she's on Lorelai's side (well, ok, that one I'll give her). It would have been interesting, imo, if Rory's season 5 character regression and dropping out of Yale had come on the heels of a Lorelai/Christopher failed marriage. I could see that really messing with Rory's head in a big way.

Rory being upset that she wasn't invited to the wedding but having a non reaction to their failed marriage actually worked for me. Lorelai is her mom and buddy so IA she would be upset if she married anyone without her being there. But I don't understand why adult Rory, or even 17 year old Rory, would be invested in her parents getting together. Rory has never actually seen her parents together. It would be different if they were together when she was young and split or tried to reunite when she was young. But the possibility wasn't even teased until she was 17 and almost out of the house. Why would she care if they got married then? Even if it worked, it wouldn't change her life, and definitely wouldn't mean that they could've worked it out when she was young and they were just in their teens/early 20s. Edited March 22, 2016 by dirtypop90

[txhorns79]

Why would she care if they got married then? Even if it worked, it wouldn't change her life, and definitely wouldn't mean that they could've worked it out when she was young and they were just in their teens/early 20s.

 

I'd disagree only to the extent that even if she wasn't living at home, her parents living together and in a successful marriage would probably change her life somewhat.  It certainly would change the dynamic when she would go home to visit her mother.  Not to mention she'd have her half-sister living at home as well. 

[dustylil]

But I don't understand why adult Rory, or even 17 year old Rory, would be invested in her parents getting together. Rory has never actually seen her parents together

 

Possibly the influence of Emily and Richard on Rory  is coming into play here. Their view that all would be right with the world if those two got wed continues to mystify.

But yes, it is difficult to figure out why Rory as a late teen or adult would care all that much. Especially so given her particular  parents.  In my observation and experience most children give up on this particularly fantasy before they finish grade school.

[Taryn74]

I don't know, I kind of see it like the Harvard thing.......did Rory want it because she wanted it?  Or did she want it because Lorelai wanted it?  Or did they both want it for so long that they really don't remember who wanted it first?

[dustylil]

Or did they both want it for so long that they really don't remember who wanted it first?

 

I would have thought the pair of them would have dealt with any Christopher-related  angst during Lorelai's romance and then engagement to Max.

Or perhaps there was some idea of having Christopher about on the side. Kind of like his own inchoate plan of having both Lorelai and Sherry in his life in early Season 3 :)

Edited March 22, 2016 by dustylil

[dirtypop90]

I would have thought the pair of them would have dealt with any Christopher-related  angst during Lorelai's romance and then engagement to Max. Or perhaps there was some idea of having Christopher about on the side. Kind of like his own inchoate plan of having both Lorelai and Sherry in his life in early Season 3.

 

Agreed and Lol I'm guessing Max would not have been okay with Chris sleeping on their couch, but Lorelai would've still allowed it. 

 

UO (maybe) I liked Max, even though I didn't like that he was rory's teacher. He was boring, but I thought Lauren Graham at least had romantic chemistry with the actor that played him, not as much as with david s., but more than she had with Scott P. or the guy who played Jason. I really felt bad for the poor guy when lorelai told him she hadn't thought much about how life would change after they got married and all she really needed from him for was food and sex. lol I was like...OUCH! 

[andromeda331]

I don't know, I kind of see it like the Harvard thing.......did Rory want it because she wanted it?  Or did she want it because Lorelai wanted it?  Or did they both want it for so long that they really don't remember who wanted it first?

Lorelai brought it up in the episode where Rory got hit by a deer. She wondered if she pushed it

on Rory after Rory had her meltdown when she was late for her test because it was what she wanted.

Rory tells her that its not true that she really does want to go to Harvard. Rory also mentions later

to the daughter of the Harvard alumi who didn't go to Harvard, that her mother would be happy

with what ever Rory did.