One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Guest]

I think Kirk's bizarreness added a lot to the series, but when the show started increasing his role, it hurt both the character and the show as a whole.  

 

These are probably YMMV moments, but here are some that come to mind.

 

Good bizarre:

Weird Dance at Miss Patty's

Season 4 Finale

Asking Lorelai out

First Date with Lulu

Kirk's Short Film

Human Kirk and Cat Kirk.

Kirk's polls in Tippicanoe and Taylor Too

Easter Egg Hunt

Cereal Box Fort in Diorama

Dressing up for the re-enactment following 'My girlfriend's the whore! My girlfriend's the whore!"

Festival of Living Art Jesus

 

 

 

Bad bizarre:

News that he had all that money and everything with the Twickham house

Fiddler on the roof

Sores and Boils

Opening Kirks

Driving into the diner

Martha and Davey's Baptism

Selling wrapping paper at competing prices with the school

[readster]

Kirk is bizarre, period.  Sometimes his weirdness works, other times it drags down an episode.  I view him like I would Urkel.  He's a character that is best in small doses, but someone got it into their heads that the only thing missing from various episodes was "more Kirk," so his part kept expanding. 

I completely agree with that analogy. Kirk has done some things or was enabled into some things that really came across as creepy than quirky and funny. The Fiddler on the Roof episode is one example. Another was the suing of Luke and how some of his 1,000 jobs he had would have required licensing or advanced degrees. The mail carrier and real-estate, was at least explained in the episodes but despite the 200K he apparently had saved up, he still lived with his mother until he married Lulu, which wouldn't have been that strange if he didn't do as she told him. I remember one episode he was kicked out of the house because she hated his collection in season 2 and then got rid of it so he could move back in. If he had anywhere close to 50K in his bank account, he could have been: "Well, screw you mom, I'm moving out!" It wasn't like Kirk was some kind of spend thrift or anything. He did work good paying jobs and if he had some kind of debt or something it would have made sense to still live with his mother. However, Lane gets told to leave the house and has to scrape together money to get an apartment with her band and boyfriend without any type of job or anything. Yet, Kirk just kicked his feet up and everyone let him do things without question. At least with Urkle they were constantly trying to diminish his antics, not encourage them.

 

Martha and Davey's Baptism

Oh that was so horrible, if that would have been me, Kirk would have been a dead man or I would have filed a restraining order. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by readster

[ghoulina]

Haha, I love most of the bad bizarre ones. Kirk is someone who in real life would drive my crazy, but was hilarious on the show. Cat Kirk is probably one of my favorite segments ever. Also, whenever something good happens in my family, I shout - "Celebrate! Celebrate! Cookies!" 

[Guest]

I also did love Kirk the dog walker. 

[Melancholy]

 Also, whenever something good happens in my family, I shout - "Celebrate! Celebrate! Cookies!" 

 

That's adorable! Now, I wanna do that! I think I agree entirely with deaja's split of Good Kirk and Bad Kirk. He was very hit or miss- but I think the later seasons made him far more annoying than funny.

 

An UO: I like April a lot. I think the actress is adorable and she really seemed very kid-like and genuine. I liked her little storylines at school and with Luke- I think GG was right on point on how a precocious child sees the world which, in its way, is more challenging than how a precocious teenager (Rory, Jess, Paris) sees the world. And despite all of his grouching and denials, I think Luke had frustrated paternal yearnings and I think it was getting too late for him to have a child with Lorelai by the end of the series so I'm actually happy that he did have a child, even if it messed up his romantic life for awhile and he missed out on April's earliest years because Anna is a deranged, horrible person. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Melancholy

[Guest]

Anna is a deranged, horrible person.

 

Preach

[JayInChicago]

Is dog walker Kirk the one where he is saying random syllables because he ends up with an extra dog he doesn't know?

Sometimes I just think of emphasizing "NÉE-NAW BOO BAH" and similar and it makes me smile

Gotta give Sean Gunn a hand. He knew how to Be Kirk.

[Guest]

Is dog walker Kirk the one where he is saying random syllables because he ends up with an extra dog he doesn't know?

Sometimes I just think of emphasizing "NÉE-NAW BOO BAH" and similar and it makes me smile

Gotta give Sean Gunn a hand. He knew how to Be Kirk.

 

That it is.  It's also the one where he plays hide and seek with them. :)

[txhorns79]

Anna is a deranged, horrible person.

 

Hee!  And add me to the preaching list on that one. 

[Taryn74]

Gotta give Sean Gunn a hand. He knew how to Be Kirk.

 

Indeed.

 

I think my favorite Kirk random stories are Cat Kirk v. Human Kirk, Kirk getting ready to tow Lorelai's jeep ("I'm coming for you!"  ha!), and the mail delivery gig.  "Didn't she die?"  "While you were delivering her mail?"  Oh and Kirk working at the Mailboxes Etc.  "Yes, I have some Balls."  Ack!  Can't forget Kirk installing a security system after Rory moves out so pretty spinster Lorelai will be safe living alone.  Bahahahaha.

[readster]

Hee!  And add me to the preaching list on that one. 

I'm part of that one too. Its a big list. I'm sorry, no matter what way you try, Anna just comes across as selfish, self-absorbed and super bitch. The 3 Ss.

[Smad]

I'm part of that one too. Its a big list. I'm sorry, no matter what way you try, Anna just comes across as selfish, self-absorbed and super bitch. The 3 Ss.

No matter what way I try, I can't even in my most deranged thoughts come up with a scenario in which Luke would EVER date Anna. Seriously, I can't do it.

[txhorns79]

No matter what way I try, I can't even in my most deranged thoughts come up with a scenario in which Luke would EVER date Anna. Seriously, I can't do it.

 

A dare gone bad? 

[Eyes High]

I'm part of that one too. Its a big list. I'm sorry, no matter what way you try, Anna just comes across as selfish, self-absorbed and super bitch. The 3 Ss.

 

Given the nature versus nurture debate over Jess and the effect of lousy parents on how their kids turn out, I'd note that April seems to have turned out fine despite having Anna as a mother.

[Guest]

Given the nature versus nurture debate over Jess and the effect of lousy parents on how their kids turn out, I'd note that April seems to have turned out fine despite having Anna as a mother.

I don't think the two are comparable.  I think Anna's bad parenting was pretty limited to not telling her who her father was/denying her a father.  Other than that, she seems to be a pretty good parent, if maybe a little overprotective in some regards. She fosters April's interests, provides for her, had a steady home, had some involvement from extended family, etc.  

 

Liz, on the other hand, was an addict who put her own needs ahead of her child at every turn.  She shipped him off to a relative with no plan and didn't want to even see him on his breaks from school.  She was neglectful, possibly to a criminal degree, whereas Anna didn't seem to be.

[Melancholy]

I think Luke was like RIDICULOUSLY attracted to confidence in women. Like, I think confidence is attractive too and it's great and enlightened for a man to find confidence so sexy in women but I think Luke took it a bridge too far and practically made a fetish thing out of it. At least, that's how I explain Nicole/Anna co-existing with Lorelai/Rachel on Luke's List. IMO, for an iconoclastic, bellicose INDIVIDUAL, Luke somewhat craved a firm hand. But from a pretty lady who he was attracted to, NOT from Taylor or something.

 

....It's kind of adorable. 

 

Still though, Anna struck me as someone didactic and bossy on a day-to-day basis but as I said earlier, Luke goes for that. Anna's bossiness is more scoldy than Lorelai's playful bossiness- but I think Luke in fetish mode viewed it all as pretty playful deep down. The problem with Anna is when the big issues come up- it's not so cute when the bossiness traverses dressing your man to deciding that your man shouldn't know about his child because he complains about strangers' loud children in a restaurant or movie theater.

[dustylil]

Given the nature versus nurture debate over Jess and the effect of lousy parents on how their kids turn out, I'd note that April seems to have turned out fine despite having Anna as a mother

 

I don't believe the situations are comparable either. We met Jess when he was seventeen, April when she was twelve. Whose to say what impact adolescence,  possibly duelling parents  and any number of external factors would have on April in the coming years? Look at Rory, for example. Who would have thought that the lovely, well spoken, intellectual young woman we met in the first season would - in the space of five years - become both an adulteress and a felon ;)

[readster]

 

Still though, Anna struck me as someone didactic and bossy on a day-to-day basis but as I said earlier, Luke goes for that. Anna's bossiness is more scoldy than Lorelai's playful bossiness- but I think Luke in fetish mode viewed it all as pretty playful deep down. The problem with Anna is when the big issues come up- it's not so cute when the bossiness traverses dressing your man to deciding that your man shouldn't know about his child because he complains about strangers' loud children in a restaurant or movie theater.

How very true and anyone with half a mind would realize that both men and women who have that attitude towards a stranger's kids would most likely not have that attitude towards their own. Especially, since day 1, Luke was not a fan he was in his mid 30s and not only had not met the right woman but also was a bit upset he didn't have his own kids either. I do agree that Luke did have an attraction to bossy and confident women, which as said is not a bad thing. Just like how many women enjoy men who have full time jobs and have life goals. Not just: "Whatever, see where life takes me" attitudes. I also agree, we don't know the raising of Liz pre-teen years with Jess. Because Jess never came across even at his worst as someone who downright hated his mother. He was bitter and thought he was smarter than most people in Stars Hollow. However, the talk about his days in New York and his early childhood despite not having his father in his life. Never came across as neglectful, but did admit he witnessed Liz lighting up a joint now again. It seems once Jess enter the teenage years, Liz didn't try hard enough and figured she just do what she enjoyed, which was smoking pot and having someone else take care of her problems. It wasn't until just before TJ and Jess leaving Luke and dropping out of high school that she finally realized she has to stop caring about just herself. Even after at her and TJ's wedding she admitted she wanted to light up but knew she had to stop being that 20 year old who ran away from her worries. Then becoming a mom again in her early 40s made her do the rest of the wake up call and Jess finally stopped blaming everyone else for his problems. 

  Anna did put April's needs and wants ahead of her own but it had to be the way she felt would be easiest for her ie: "Not telling Luke and letting her mom help her." As AS-P said when she originally created Anna's character her own words were: "Like Lorelai but more selfish." Hence forth: "She's my daughter, Luke!" "I make the rules." Until Luke post break up with Lorelai realized April was his kid, he had rights and Anna robbed him of the first 12 years because of Luke saying how kids were annoying when they went to dinner and a movie. 

[Melancholy]

How very true and anyone with half a mind would realize that both men and women who have that attitude towards a stranger's kids would most likely not have that attitude towards their own.

 

Heck, the show makes that a plot-point with Sookie. Many parents are annoyed by loud, misbehaving stranger-children in a public place- but love their own kids. My own parents were exactly like that. 

 

 

t seems once Jess enter the teenage years, Liz didn't try hard enough and figured she just do what she enjoyed, which was smoking pot and having someone else take care of her problems. It wasn't until just before TJ and Jess leaving Luke and dropping out of high school that she finally realized she has to stop caring about just herself. Even after at her and TJ's wedding she admitted she wanted to light up but knew she had to stop being that 20 year old who ran away from her worries. Then becoming a mom again in her early 40s made her do the rest of the wake up call and Jess finally stopped blaming everyone else for his problems.

 

See, I take a less generous view of Liz. I think she irresponsibly partied from when she was knocked up with Jess all the way through when she sent Jess to Luke's. There were probably short-lived New Year's resolution type events where she abstained from drinking and drugs and promised to be a better parent....but those went by the wayside. The teenage Jess that we met was completely used to a Liz who didn't prioritize him and had a string of bad boyfriends- and couldn't imagine her any other way. 

 

I don't even think Liz had a change of heart where she decided to stop just caring about herself or to stop running away from problems. Liz showed no remorse, she was still unbelievably selfish and content to let others like Luke or TJ solve her problems. I kind of think that she was just....tired of partying non-stop and living near poverty. It's a young woman's game, not physically comfortable for a woman in her forties. After a string of terrible boyfriend who used and may have abused her, she found it very comforting to lean on TJ's dim but well-meaning loyalty and stability. So, she decided to abandon the non-stop hangovers and economic uncertainty of NYC to come to Stars Hallow to be taken care of by Luke, TJ, Stars Hallow's general small town ease of life. 

 

I don't know if anyone watches The Sopranos. I think Liz is a lot like Janice Soprano- except Liz gets the whitewashing of cutsie townie Gilmore Girls and it's annoying; meanwhile, Janice is a well-written, realistic, but so dark and hateable version of that type of character and is one of my favorites. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

I don't know if anyone watches The Sopranos. I think Liz is a lot like Janice Soprano- except Liz gets the whitewashing of cutsie townie Gilmore Girls and it's annoying; meanwhile, Janice is a well-written, realistic, but so dark and hateable version of that type of character and is one of my favorites.

 

I agree the show had the characters wear mostly Stars Hollow-esque blinders with regards to Liz.  She just struck me as a flake, whose priority was herself and her feelings.  I think she cared about Jess in the most general sense that he was her son, so she felt she should care.  Otherwise, she appeared to have little interest in him, or being a parent to him. 

[Guest]

Not sure if this will be an unpopular opinion or not. But it majorly irks me that Liz kind of agreed that Luke wasn't really a kid person and therefore Anna was right to keep him out of her life.  Pot, kettle?  And if he's so not good with kids, why did you send your son to him?

 

I think Liz is easily my least favorite character on the show.

[dustylil]

What an interesting comparison to The Sopranos!  And  both Janice and Liz abandoned their sons and leaned heavily on their brothers for support. I wonder if Liz also killed any of her boyfriends? Of course, loyal as Luke was to his  family, I doubt even he would dispose of the remains for her. I could see him giving her bus fare though:)

[Melancholy]

SOPRANOS SPOILERS

 

What an interesting comparison to The Sopranos!  And  both Janice and Liz abandoned their sons and leaned heavily on their brothers for support. I wonder if Liz also killed any of her boyfriends? Of course, loyal as Luke was to his  family, I doubt even he would dispose of the remains for her. I could see him giving her bus fare though:)

 

Ha! Well, we could analogize Tony is to Richie Aprile as Luke is to Taylor....LOL, just kidding! Plus, Liz and Janice have this cloying, obnoxious need to be the Boss of Sentiment so they can appoint themselves to a more meaningful position than everyone around them who has their life far more together and demand positive attention for it. They grift onto changeable aesthetics from the Renaissance Fair to eastern philosophy to born again Christianity, partly to find order and a fun, NON-suit way to profit in their own lives, but also because they badly need a conversation piece and an elevated, proven way to lecture others' in their lives. 

 

And I think think her limited, mean, little mafiosa way, Janice tried more impressively with Bobby and his kids than Liz did with TJ and Douhla. 

[txhorns79]

Not sure if this will be an unpopular opinion or not. But it majorly irks me that Liz kind of agreed that Luke wasn't really a kid person and therefore Anna was right to keep him out of her life.  Pot, kettle?  And if he's so not good with kids, why did you send your son to him?

 

She tried nothing and was all out of ideas! 

Edited December 16, 2015 by txhorns79

[alexa]

I was never a fan of Liz either.  To me she is the annoying fly that wasn't necessary to the show and wouldn't go away.  TJ too.  In rewatching GG, I start to get a bit depressed when they show up, as I know they are recurring enough that I can't get fully comfortable when watching.

 

Kind of like Chris.... you get comfortable without him, and then he shows back up.

[Commando Cody]

I didn't like Liz all that much, but she became more tolerable after they introduced TJ. I couldn't stand him. 

[LegalParrot81]

TJ made me want to throw heavy objects at my television.  He was horrible.

[Eyes High]

TJ made me want to throw heavy objects at my television. He was horrible.

I thought this was the UNpopular opinions thread. Hee.

[ghoulina]

I thought this was the UNpopular opinions thread. Hee.

 

Then I'll voice one - I LIKE TJ! He cracks me up. 

[Guest]

Can't stand TJ. He's more annoying. However, she's more of a despicable person.

[amensisterfriend]

Liz was, unquestionably to me, the worst parent of the show.

 

Amen, sister friend :) And somehow the fact that Liz's consistent awfulness is handwaved away by pretty much everyone as cute, "quirky" and oh-that's-just-our-Liz makes me dislike her even more. Which brings me to the very UO that I would have been just fine with Jess opting NOT to participate in her wedding festivities. Liz seems to have made precious few sacrifices on her son's behalf, always selfishly putting her own desires first (and second and third...), so I'm not sure why it was just so widely understood that Jess needed to put aside his own discomfort and annoyance to accommodate Liz here. 

 

By the way, I posted a "Lorelai is really kind of the worst..." article in the media thread that some of you may find amusing! I like and probably even excuse Lorelai more than most do, but even I found parts of it on point :) 

 

I've been rewatching parts of the series for the first time in quite awhile and, wow, Luke was just so much sharper, quicker, more interesting and appealing in S1 than the subsequent seasons IMO, and his romantic chemistry with Lorelai was by far at its peak then IMO. It's interesting to think about how the series would have been better or worse if they had just been put together then...though based on how they were depicted in S5 and S6, I'm not sure I would have wanted a whole series of them as a couple as written and directed by AS-P! But it's not just L/L. In fact...

 

...the romantic relationships on this show were almost ALL moderately to majorly problematic IMO. I know that's not a new opinion, but it's unpopular enough to be worth repeating ;)  AS-P did  a really good job building up to relationships and of capturing that post-breakup period when said relationships crumbled, but when it came to depicting the actual 'being a couple' part, I think she was pretty consistently sub-mediocre.

[Melancholy]

Amen, sister friend :) And somehow the fact that Liz's consistent awfulness is handwaved away by pretty much everyone as cute, "quirky" and oh-that's-just-our-Liz makes me dislike her even more. Which brings me to the very UO that I would have been just fine with Jess opting NOT to participate in her wedding festivities. Liz seems to have made precious few sacrifices on her son's behalf, always selfishly putting her own desires first (and second and third...), so I'm not sure why it was just so widely understood that Jess needed to put aside his own discomfort and annoyance to accommodate Liz here. 

 

Aw, I hated Liz so much as I said up thread. However, I still think it would have been assy for Jess to not give her away. I think Luke made it pretty cut and dried because Jess did owe Luke respect for familial favors. However even though Liz was a bad, neglectful mother, she was still somewhat due love from her family since that's supposed to be the one unit of unconditional love. Jess really could do that one small gesture for her without much cost to himself, if he could tear himself away from the ravages of his own misspent life at the time. And he did and it was a significant step on him becoming a better person. 

 

Plus, Liz is tricky. At S4, it looked like she was turning her life around and becoming a less selfish, more family-oriented person. She was recently clean and sober. She was moving back to Stars Hallow which is not a destination for a party-girl lifestyle. She reached out to Luke and Jess. TJ was a twit- but he nicely upended some expectations by not just gibbering his way through life but calling Luke on his actual rude behavior. Liz's behavior in S5-7 punctured that first impression- Liz cleaned up enough to be more respectable-looking, but not really to become less selfish or more of a genuine, worthwhile human being. However, you know, I don't think everyone necessarily predicts that redemption is going to be so much on the empty side. People usually expect that the drugs and big-city lifestyle obscures a heart of gold, even though it can just obscure a shallow, silly, ultimately boring woman without the big city party girl drama.

[dustylil]

Of course, Luke could have walked her down the aisle. It is usually a senior male family member who has that particular honour. Though perhaps was he worn out from having done it two or three times before.

 

 

TJ was a twit- but he nicely upended some expectations by not just gibbering his way through life but calling Luke on his actual rude behavior

 

How was Luke rude? He came home to his apartment after work to find a man he had never met before rummaging through his fridge looking for a beer. It was not as if TJ had bought a case of beer to share and was storing it in the refrigerator to share. He was pilfering one of Luke's.

 

Also, Liz  purloined a couple of steaks and a pie from the diner's supplies. Given that Luke didn't eat red meat and generally abstained from sweets, it is quite clear whom the meal Liz was going to prepare was really for - not Luke.

 

Neither Liz nor TJ apologized for their less than gracious behaviour, as I recall.

 

Liz had been mooching off him for years, I can appreciate that Luke was not thrilled that her new boyfriend appeared to be cut from the same cloth. Given Luke's temper, I thought his response to the freeloaders was quite restrained.

[Melancholy]

Thirty seconds after meeting TJ, Luke was already snarking that just by knowing that Luke wasn't Liz, TJ was "smarter than the last guy". He wouldn't even make conversation, like humoring TJ with the "guess my initials" which is standard introduction talk. Who knows if TJ overheard Luke and Jess in the hallway as Luke tried to break up Liz and TJ within a minute of meeting TJ. Luke was unbelievably rude when TJ tried to invite Luke out to the festival, making a sarcastic remark even at something as simple as "There you are."

 

I love Luke- but he was an ass to TJ because he assumed that because of Liz's history, TJ had to be an asshole. Meanwhile, it seems like TJ was the nicest guy that Liz was with- and Luke recognized that at the end of the ep. (I think TJ is a ridiculous person- but I find him well-intentioned.) TJ may have freeloaded a few food items, most undoubtedly at Liz's invitation, but that didn't seem like an excuse for Luke to be rude to every overture that TJ made in trying to get to know Luke all day. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Melancholy

[amensisterfriend]

I find Luke an unbelievably rude, bitter, angry boor more often than not, but I actually think he was far more patient and polite to the insufferable Liz and TJ than I would have been. Then again, that's a pretty low bar ;) 

[solotrek]

I love Luke- but he was an ass to TJ because he assumed that because of Liz's history, TJ had to be an asshole. Meanwhile, it seems like TJ was the nicest guy that Liz was with- and Luke recognized that at the end of the ep. (I think TJ is a ridiculous person- but I find him well-intentioned.) TJ may have freeloaded a few food items, most undoubtedly at Liz's invitation, but that didn't seem like an excuse for Luke to be rude to every overture that TJ made in trying to get to know Luke all day.

 

It came off to me as a "fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times" type of thing. She's had at least 3 husbands before TJ and obviously a myriad of boyfriends. Apparently they've all been free loading assholes who end up leaving her high and dry and worse off. Luke would honestly have to be a complete moron to expect anything better from TJ.

[dustylil]

asf. I'm with you. And the pair of them (well, at least Liz) were still trying to rip Luke off in Season 7 by selling his father's boat without his knowledge.

 

Perhaps if TJ had behaved like a guest in a stranger's home, rather than a moocher, Luke might have been more favourably impressed. After all, before Liz returned with the "liberated" steaks and pie, TJ was planning on using Luke's food to prepare dinner for Liz and himself.

We know there are grocery stores in Stars Hollow, we have seen them. What exactly was preventing Liz and TJ from going to one and purchasing supplies?

There was nothing about TJ's conduct  in his first several minutes in Luke's apartment to suggest that he was a nice guy or any different from the myriad of men who had gone before in Liz's life. I didn't fault Luke in the least for his initial reaction to TJ.

[Melancholy]

I agree that Luke was rude to TJ because he was used to Liz picking horrible guys. However, TJ didn't live that history and in a perfect world, shouldn't be treated worse by Luke because of Liz's history. (In fact, I got the impression that Liz was actively whitewashing her past to hold onto TJ, right down her making up a nicer relationship with Jess right as she goes along. See her "My two favorite guys!" enthusiasm with Luke and TJ and then, over-enthusiastic non-recovery when Jess walked in.) 

 

TJ's mooching wasn't good. However if THAT was the big thing that bothered Luke, Luke should have made a stand that Liz shouldn't touch his food and told TJ that whatever Liz may have said about "help yourself, my brother doesn't mind me and my friends using his food" should be disregarded. IMO, Luke wasn't particularly upset about the mooching; he's pretty resigned that Liz will eat what she wants. Luke was rude to TJ because of the etch-a-sketch and TJ's dumb conversation and because Luke assumed that TJ was like those other guys as in so dumb and so contemptuously uninterested in anything that goes on in Liz's life beyond sex and getting high that TJ wouldn't even hear Luke's insults and slights. When TJ got mad and said Luke was a dick, TJ actually earned some respect from Luke because clearly TJ was taking this visit seriously because he was serious about Liz. 

[dustylil]

I entirely agree that TJ did earn some respect from Luke. Just that Luke's original dislike of him was quite understandable and TJ made no effort to apologize or mollify him.

 

I think if Luke had made a stand about not touching his food  it would make him feel and seem petty. Probably a better solution would be to have put a padlock on his and the diner's fridge any time he was aware Liz and TJ  were within a hundred miles of Stars Hollow :)

 

I rather wished that TJ had become a more likeable and sympathetic character over the seasons- given all that both Luke and Lorelai did for him. I quite liked the actor in his stint as Andy J on NYPD Blue.

[Melancholy]

Yes, TJ didn't apologize for taking the food- but I don't think TJ saw anything to apologize for, especially while Liz was modeling "Luke's casa is mi casa" and Luke was grumbling about other stuff in front of TJ. My impression that TJ swallowing all of Luke's insults and inviting him to try the Etch-a-Sketch and inviting Luke to enjoy the festival with him and Liz even though the "dick" impression was becoming calcified in TJ's head WAS TJ mollifying Luke. 

 

I think Luke's dislike was emotionally understandable because of Liz's history but it wasn't fair to TJ. I don't think a little mooching on foodstuffs (likely at Liz's direction) justifies a brick wall of rudeness through the entire day when TJ was otherwise friendly. Luke earned the "dick" remark, and per my original point, Luke actually (to his Luke Danesque unusually authentic salty credit) felt better about Liz and TJ since TJ was hearing and feeling Luke's slights, even if TJ put on a jolly face all day. 

 

I really liked the actor who played TJ too, but yeah, he was pretty insufferable. I think he was better than Liz and she was lucky to have him but he really could not turn off his Annoying Switch. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Melancholy

[solotrek]

. I don't think a little mooching on foodstuffs (likely at Liz's direction) justifies a brick wall of rudeness through the entire day when TJ was otherwise friendly.

 

I get what you're saying in that no one should really get judged based on the people before and Luke was being a dick in that regard. However, I was under the distinct impression that it started with mooching small things with all of Liz's other boyfriends/husbands. And moochers tend to be very charismatic people. We saw the annoying but somewhat decent guy that worked out. Luke had to go through many that were more or less annoying but were also awful and then basically having to help Liz get back on her feet (probably via money and some time). Watching someone make horrible life choices and choosing terrible guys for ~25 years (I assume her first ~15 years couldn't have been that bad) must be trying. Luke doesn't care about the next stop on Liz's "horrible guy train", he just wants to put the brakes on before he sees yet another trainwreck. So from that point of view, I get why Luke gives zero shits about TJ early on. Why bother? ~25 years gives leeway to make snap judgements about the type of people he'd figure Liz would associate with.

[Guest]

I think it's a combination of things.  One that Luke had been taken advantage of by Liz and her men for years.  TJ did appear to be mooching.  But even under the best of circumstances, Luke wasn't a warm, accepting person upon first meeting. I like Luke, but he was definitely a jerk a good portion of the time. As he got to know people, he often warmed up and was soft hearted toward them, but it certainly was never his "go to" position.

[Melancholy]

No, I agree that Luke's surly instincts were a character flaw, even though he was essentially a kind person. He did make more efforts with some to maintain a welcoming, positive first impression, even through their bad behavior, like with Emily and Richard or Jess pre-lake pushing. However, obviously he'll try harder with the love of his life's parents or his own flesh and blood nephew than a probable contestant in Liz's revolving door of guys. However, it's also that IMO, Luke was awed by the elder Gilmores' money and panache so they commanded respect even when they were very rude to him that TJ couldn't. 

 

UO: I never bought that Lindsay was a spoiled, entitled brat of a wife from hell. In the scenes that we saw, she was a somewhat immature, unimpressive girl who still came off like a nice person who badly wanted to be a good wife to Dean and replicate her own parents' long marriage. Lindsay appeared to be doing everything that young housewives of blue collar men did AND THEN SOME- fussing over the chemicals at the dry-cleaner, hand-delivering Dean his lunch, learning how to cook so she could make elegant roasts for just the two of them. To attack Lindsay for being shiftless and lazy is to attack SO MANY women throughout history and today.

 

I don't even think Dean even suggested to Lindsay that she get a job or said that he didn't want a townhouse. Rory seemed more invested in Dean going to college than Dean did. Given Dean's Donna Reed fantasies and the marriages that Lindsay observed, how is Lindsay supposed to know that Dean didn't want her to be a homemaker? Especially when I'm not even sure that Dean didn't want Lindsay to be a housewife. Dean just reported that Lindsey wanted a townhouse or argued that he needed to work nights to pay for the things that Lindsay wanted with his blanket hand-dog "I'm talking to Rory who I wish was my girlfriend/wife. I feel so sorry for myself!" expression. 

 

I also don't think it was unreasonable for Lindsay to get upset that Dean didn't want to go out with her and their friends. Obviously, it's a standard-couple problem to debate over a good balance between work and evenings out. However, I didn't hear Dean object that he's already forgone a lot of work or gave solid reasons that Lindsay made too many demands on him. It's just that in the throes of late S4 as the adultery arc heats up, Dean decided to get pissy with Lindsay for exactly what she said- "I want to go out with my husband. Hello! We're married here!"

[dustylil]

I never bought that Lindsay was a spoiled, entitled brat of a wife from hell. In the scenes that we saw, she was a somewhat immature, unimpressive girl who still came off like a nice person who badly wanted to be a good wife to Dean

 

I agree but I think we were supposed to be less than impressed with Lindsay from the get-go. She was the only Stars Hollow teen we met who didn't appear to have a part-time job during high school. Rory, Lane, Jess and Dean all were gainfully employed. And there was no evidence given that she - like Paris - was actively involved in school activities or student government. She was just a bland, blonde teenage girl.

[solotrek]

UO: I never bought that Lindsay was a spoiled, entitled brat of a wife from hell.

 

I agree. I think I actually resented and hated being forced to hate Lindsay more than I hated Lindsay herself. Dean and Lindsay were just dumb kids who married way too early. And their issues basically stemmed from the fact that they were so young and naive.

[dustylil]

It might have made sense for Lindsay to have been pregnant  as the reason for their early marriage - followed by a miscarriage. But then viewers would likely have been sympathetic to the girl. And that apparently was not something the showrunnners wanted.

[txhorns79]

I agree but I think we were supposed to be less than impressed with Lindsay from the get-go. She was the only Stars Hollow teen we met who didn't appear to have a part-time job during high school. Rory, Lane, Jess and Dean all were gainfully employed. And there was no evidence given that she - like Paris - was actively involved in school activities or student government. She was just a bland, blonde teenage girl.

 

I didn't really even notice whether she was employed or not in high school or her other school activities.  I can't imagine we were supposed to care about something like that for someone who was a fairly minor character, were we?  I thought the main problem with Lindsay was she was just a very poorly developed character.  My understanding was that she originally was just a means to an end, i.e. to allow Jared Padalecki a way to be written off the show so he could do that tv pilot that never went to series.  So when he was brought back, they had to bring her back as well, but this time, she was just there to make Dean and Rory's romance forbidden.      

[readster]

I didn't really even notice whether she was employed or not in high school or her other school activities.  I can't imagine we were supposed to care about something like that for someone who was a fairly minor character, were we?  I thought the main problem with Lindsay was she was just a very poorly developed character.  My understanding was that she originally was just a means to an end, i.e. to allow Jared Padalecki a way to be written off the show so he could do that tv pilot that never went to series.  So when he was brought back, they had to bring her back as well, but this time, she was just there to make Dean and Rory's romance forbidden.      

Yes, it was originally meant to be Jared writing off of the show. AS-P and even Jared said that was always the plan. Then his show didn't get picked up and he didn't have a problem returning to GG and he thought it was an interesting story. However, he later agreed he hated how his character ended and even admitted his last appearance on GG, which was so horrendous was because he was free at the time. Jared even said it was a paycheck and then Supernatural happened. Then we never saw Dean again. Lindsey was a plot device, not a character. That's what some show creators do and they don't get the point between a character and a plot device. Especially, when fans react so negativity to it and go: "But my story was awesome, why don't you see it?" The point of her character, the forcing it down our throats that she was an aweful teenage wife was for us to accept Rory and Dean's affair but then everyone hated it. The plan, here comes Logan, Dean realizes he has no place in Rory's world and leaves. Instead of him realizing he screwed up his own life instead, he yells at Luke that they are both unwanted and Lorelai will never want him and want her parents' lives instead. Which really made everyone go: "WTF?"

[dustylil]

Instead of him realizing he screwed up his own life instead, he yells at Luke that they are both unwanted and Lorelai will never want him and want her parents' lives instead

 

I particularly enjoyed Dean implying that both he and Luke were just small town guys. As I recall, Dean had spent the great majority of his life in Chicago.

[txhorns79]

I particularly enjoyed Dean implying that both he and Luke were just small town guys. As I recall, Dean had spent the great majority of his life in Chicago.

 

Wasn't Dean just saying that he and Luke were in the same type of situation, i.e. that Luke was limited as a person, Lorelai would eventually feel that Luke's limitations were holding her back and move on, just like Rory did with Dean?  I'm not sure he made any real implication about he or Luke being "small town guys," unless you believe the presumption he started with is that only people who live in small towns can serve to limit others' ambitions.  

Edited December 24, 2015 by txhorns79