One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Smad]

And related to this, I hold the what I presume to be a highly unpopular opinion - if Luke was so devoted to his family, why was he not a real presence in Jess' life until the boy was seventeen?

Amy Sherman 'Sucks at cohesive storytelling and characterization' Palladino.

[timimouse]

I don't know.  I sometimes get sick of the "my parents weren't nice to me" excuse for all kinds of behaviors from rudeness to murder.  After the age of 7 a kid knows right from wrong.  I grew up with kids that had less than wonderful families and went on to become successful people and nurturing parents.

 

I do understand what you're saying but my experience has led me to believe that it depends on the person. Some people fight hell hard not to let their past pull them down while others get lost in it. No judgement, just acceptance that it's what the person believes. 

So I was glad to see them bring Jess back and show us that he rose above it.

[txhorns79]

And related to this, I hold the what I presume to be a highly unpopular opinion - if Luke was so devoted to his family, why was he not a real presence in Jess' life until the boy was seventeen? He was one of the few who knew of the conditions in which he was being raised? Yet until Jess came to live with him, it appeared the two barely knew one another.

 

I think the answer would be that Liz seemed like someone who moved around a lot (and perhaps was not in a place for much of the time where Luke could have a relationship with Jess during his early years), appeared to be somewhat estranged from her brother (or at least realized he heavily disapproved of her) and there simply wasn't an opportunity for Luke to step into the situation until Liz reached out to him to take Jess. 

[solotrek]

I'd also think that it's the type of situation where you don't step in until asked. If Liz lived in town, it'd be different. It seemed like Liz was a pretty shitty parent, but just not shitty enough for CPS to get involved. Though CPS probably doesn't exist in GG world. But Stars Hollow to NYC is what, 2-3 hours? And that's just far enough where getting involved in someone else's life and running your own business doesn't work out very well.  You can be devoted to your family and want the best, but getting involved in their life when they don't want it is difficult. Especially when it involves, a selfish narcissist aka "free spirit" like Liz.

[Eyes High]

Also, just because Jess was viewed as an arrogant and mean little twerp wouldn't necessarily signify that he had had rotten parenting. Any more than Rory's adultery or Lorelai's teen pregnancy were  reflections of the mothering they received.

 

For all of Lorelai's preening about her parenting skills, it's really only luck that she wound up with a kid who was not only extremely smart but also very genuinely meek, polite, and well-behaved (as opposed to a performed fake meekness for her mother's benefit, as with Lane). That's an...unusual combination, in my experience. In my experience, highly gifted children and teens--and I think we're supposed to believe that Rory, being valedictorian at an elite private school, falls into that category--are horrible little shits: rude, arrogant, stubborn, defiant, extremely sarcastic, self-righteous, pretentious, intellectually if not criminally rebellious, insufferable, the works. It has nothing to do with parenting. They know they are smarter than the adults trying to keep them in line, and that knowledge makes them terrifying, no matter how caring and involved their parents. Their favourite hobby is pushing other people's buttons to see what kind of a reaction they get. They are deeply contemptuous of anyone who is not as intelligent as they are. They are, almost to a one, "arrogant and mean little twerps." Most of them grow out of it just as Jess did, thank God, but there it is. It's sheer luck that Lorelai wound up with a special snowflake child who is as genuinely considerate and humble as she is brilliant. That is extremely unusual. 

 

Many years ago, I remember a congregated gifted class of 12 year olds at my school who once decided to drive a substitute teacher to tears by coordinating their actions to push their pencils off their desks at the exact same time. Just because they could. It worked. 

 

...With all that said, I think there's enough in the show to conclude that Liz was a shitty, neglectful parent. However, I doubt Jess would have turned out any differently if he'd had a parent as involved and as caring as Lorelai. He reminds me of the very bright kids and teens I knew growing up: exquisitely terrible. Most of them, just as Jess did, eventually became productive, successful, well-adjusted members of society: engineers, scientists, mathematicians, doctors, lawyers, musicians, writers, etc. etc. But their poor, poor parents.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Eyes High

[photo fox]

In my experience, highly gifted children and teens--and I think we're supposed to believe that Rory, being valedictorian at an elite private school, falls into that category--are horrible little shits: rude, arrogant, stubborn, defiant, extremely sarcastic, self-righteous, pretentious, intellectually if not criminally rebellious, insufferable, the works. It has nothing to do with parenting. They know they are smarter than the adults trying to keep them in line, and that knowledge makes them terrifying, no matter how caring and involved their parents. Their favourite hobby is pushing other people's buttons to see what kind of a reaction they get. They are deeply contemptuous of anyone who is not as intelligent as they are. They are, almost to a one, "arrogant and mean little twerps."

Why, thanks for describing me so perfectly! (and there's the sarcasm.) ;-)

My UO is that Lorelei isn't a good parent at all (with the caveat that I've only seen bits and pieces of the first three seasons). She spends WAY too much time trying to be Rory's friend. She lucked into a great kid.

[txhorns79]

My UO is that Lorelei isn't a good parent at all (with the caveat that I've only seen bits and pieces of the first three seasons). She spends WAY too much time trying to be Rory's friend. She lucked into a great kid.

 

That's a common debate in these parts.  I agree with you.  There are times when Rory needs a parent, and Lorelai has badly undermined herself by treating Rory as a peer. 

[Guest]

 

With all that said, I think there's enough in the show to conclude that Liz was a shitty, neglectful parent.

 

Yep. Even leaving Jess out of the picture (why not? Liz always did), she seemed to often drop Doula (the name alone qualifies her as a sucky parent) off with Luke, someone who wasn't really a baby person, often.  She had no regard for his time or how he would take care of Doula while running the diner.

[dustylil]

how he would take care of Doula while running the diner

 

And a  small diner at that. Just chock a block with hot dishes, scalding beverages, and spicy condiments,

Was Liz even familiar with the concept of hiring a babysitter? Of course, that would mean digging into her own pocket.

Better mooch off her brother. And failing that, try to steal their father's half built boat. sell it  and use that money.

Edited December 10, 2015 by dustylil

[solotrek]

My UO is that Lorelei isn't a good parent at all (with the caveat that I've only seen bits and pieces of the first three seasons). She spends WAY too much time trying to be Rory's friend. She lucked into a great kid.

 

I hesitate to agree with this because that'd be implying that Lorelai was a bad mother. She has her issues that make sense based on what age she was when she had her daughter and how she chose to raise her (by herself without her own parental support). However, at the same time Rory was raised in a loving home with someone who supported her interests and aspirations and wanted her near good people. Maybe Lorelai got lucky with Rory, but at the same time, maybe we see the more "friend-like" parenting style she has because that was the kid she got.

 

Not saying there aren't issues with her parenting (who makes fun of a girl obviously nervous about meeting her grandparents who don't like her?), but everyone has lapses in judgement as a parent. Especially someone so young. There's really no such thing as a "perfect parent". Lorelai was far from perfect, but she wasn't a bad mother.

[dustylil]

I never viewed Lorelai as spending too much time being Rory' s friend. When we first met them Rory was almost sixteen. Much of the heavy lifting of child rearing was done. They may indeed have had shared tastes in clothes, food and pop culture and been the best of pals at times.  However, in the first thee years of the series, we saw Lorelai rebuke her daughter when she behaved badly, facilitate her dreams and ambitions,  encourage her to try things beyond her comfort zone,  spend time with suitable friends,  act as a sounding board and  help with homework and school activities.  These seemed to me pretty much the duties of a parent for someone in their mid to late teens. 

 

Overall, I thought Lorelai was a pretty good mother. Although she did rather fall down on encouraging the development of empathy in Rory. She was so busy making sure that nobody and nothing hurt Rory - rather understandable given their early circumstances - that she failed to make Rory understand and acknowledge the needs and feelings of others. Teaching her the Golden Rule (not the Golden Rule of the senior Gilmores - they who have the gold, make the rules - but the other one) didn't seem to be a part of her upbringing. And unfortunately compassion for and insight into others were not qualities Rory had innately.

[txhorns79]

However, in the first thee years of the series, we saw Lorelai rebuke her daughter when she behaved badly, facilitate her dreams and ambitions,  encourage her to try things beyond her comfort zone,  spend time with suitable friends,  act as a sounding board and  help with homework and school activities.  These seemed to me pretty much the duties of a parent for someone in their mid to late teens.

 

I think we saw a number of times where Lorelai had difficulty switching between "friend" and "mom."  And most of the items described easily fit into the friend zone, except that I think the only dreams being facilitated in that house were Lorelai's dreams for Rory, not Rory's dreams for herself. 

[dustylil]

Well, if I ever saw Lorelai watch the news, follow current events, read a magazine not devoted to pop culture or use a newspaper for any purpose other than as part of a bridal ensemble, then I might be inclined agree it was her dream for Rory to become a journalist, and not Rory's.

[solotrek]

except that I think the only dreams being facilitated in that house were Lorelai's dreams for Rory, not Rory's dreams for herself.

 

Maybe I'm just being really Asian today, but there's nothing wrong with dreaming that your child will go to an Ivy league school. Or for your child to have a role model like Christiane Amanpour. I didn't really see Lorelai really pushing her dreams onto Rory. As dustylil said, watching The Daily Show aside, Lorelai never seemed like a "news"/jounralism person. There were instances like when Lorelai took Emily shopping for a birthday gift for Rory, that I did some oddities. The stupid purse or even those bracelets don't really scream Rory.  But for big dreams or goals? They were pretty acceptable. She wasn't a Mrs. Kim, that's for sure.

[txhorns79]

Well, if I ever saw Lorelai watch the news, follow current events, read a magazine not devoted to pop culture or use a newspaper for any purpose other than as part of a bridal ensemble, then I might be inclined agree it was her dream for Rory to become a journalist, and not Rory's.

 

I'm actually talking about Rory's desire over the first three seasons to attend Harvard.  I should have made that more clear.  I would agree that Lorelai didn't much care what Rory did once she reached the Ivy League, (as dustylil has noted many times over the years, Yale didn't even have a degree program for journalism when Rory decided to go there) so she was generally supportive of Rory's desire to do be a television correspondent.  However, if you think Rory just happened to pick Yale's biggest rival as the school she desperately wanted to attend for most of her life by chance, I would suggest that is incorrect.  

 

I'd also say that a better parent would have sat down with Rory, particularly after her meltdown over Mitchum's criticism, and asked her to give some thought to whether she really has the right temperament to be a foreign correspondent in the Amanpour-style.    

Edited December 11, 2015 by txhorns79

[Aloeonatable]

 

I'd also say that a better parent would have sat down with Rory, particularly after her meltdown over Mitchum's criticism, and asked her to give some thought to whether she really has the right temperament to be a foreign correspondent in the Amanpour-style.

Even Jess questioned whether that was the right career for Rory. 

[Melancholy]

Going back earlier, I kind of do excuse Jess for all of his past bad behavior. Maybe I'm a soft touch. I think Liz and his father were just that shitty that Jess had to come away incredibly scarred. The Liz that we got in S4-7 was the cleaned up, reformed version who stopped using drugs....and she was still a horrible mooch with no redeeming qualities who couldn't get her life in order without making inappropriate demands on Luke and showed zero authentic remorse about how she treated Jess but only had enough interest in him to stir up shit about his car and make him into an appropriate accessory to her Barbie Dreambook Medieval Wedding. We barely saw his father but I think I got the picture when Jess had to tearfully beg to be put up for the night.

 

And I don't think Jess was so bad. Like, I agree that abusers and criminals cop out when they blame their childhoods. Just a basic familiarity with the law and Golden Rule should be enough to make people refrain from doing horrible things to others. However, not only was Jess a kid, but I think most of his misdeeds were pure self-destructiveness, youthful pranks and accidents, and an inability to connect and maintain good manners under good circumstances, but especially when he was feeling understandable stress. I pretty much never felt like he was out to really hurt anyone just for the sake of hurting someone unlike, say poorly raised Paris who I also adore but spent quite a lot of her childhood and even university years trying to figure out how to sabotage her peers' futures and make everyone around her miserable with the most cutting insult or sneaky attack on their life. Jess was rude, not malicious. 

 

IMO, parents teach their children manners and teach them how value their futures enough to take care of themselves by going to school, not taking up smoking, build up friendships. Eventually poorly raised children need to grow up and start teaching themselves self-esteem and the ability to trust others and worry about making plans for Rory's Saturday night instead of being locked down into their own survival mode- but that's an adult process and I get how a 17 year old Jess didn't get it yet. 

 

Jess really has a pretty big pass from me. Even in his bad-boy years, there's a Luke-like decency and kindness to him. 

[dustylil]

My most recent comments about Lorelai's parenting concerned quite specifically  Rory's pre-college years, not her time at Yale . By the time Mitchum  offered his frank observations about Rory's likelihood of success in journalism, the two were no longer as close. What with the affair with Dean and Rory's immersion in Logan's louche world and all.

 

Given how dismissive Rory was about her mother's views of why Mitchum made his comments and, even more, her condescending remarks about her own decision to leave Yale, I find it difficult to imagine that Rory would be amenable to a conversation with Lorelai about the wisdom of becoming a foreign correspondent.

 

Also, I am unclear as to when such a talk might have happened. Just after bail was posted seemed too fraught  a time for any kind of meaningful discussion. The next time they spoke was at Weston's.   Rory packed up her things and moved to the poolhouse shortly after their conversation there. And cut off communication with her mother.

 

That said, a discussion on Rory's  potential career  would certainly have been of value. Even providing a verbal pro/con list! Although whether Lorelai with her limited work and life experience would have been the logical family member to initiate it is another matter. The seasoned, well travelled and well read Richard seems a more likely source of counsel. But of course he did nothing.

[txhorns79]

Also, I am unclear as to when such a talk might have happened.  Just after bail was posted seemed too fraught  a time for any kind of meaningful discussion. The next time they spoke was at Weston's.   Rory packed up her things and moved to the poolhouse shortly after their conversation there. And cut off communication with her mother.

 

Wasn't Rory in school for almost two more years after the incident?  That seems like plenty of time for Lorelai to broach the subject.  I don't think there was any particular reason Lorelai would have needed to talk about that situation immediately after it happened, or not at all.  It's not like Rory was taking classes specific to a degree in broadcast journalism, or would otherwise be stuck in school for a number of extra years if she did a mid-college review of her career goals.       

 

[amensisterfriend]

A few UOs inspired by this awesome discussion: 

 

For various reasons related to age, background, experiences, the type of parenting they received etc., I give Jess much more of a 'pass' for his rudeness, anger, inability to communicate maturely, etc. than I give to his widely beloved and oft-excused uncle Luke! 

 

Liz is the worst. I think I like her even less than characters like Colin, and I despise Colin. (Like to the point where I like Logan less because he chooses to still hang out with Colin, which I realize is probably unfair and ridiculous, but UOs are not always rational!) My UO is that I dislike Liz even more than I dislike TJ, whose many flaws are at least acknowledged as annoying within the show while Liz's grossly selfish obnoxiousness is always excused and even viewed as "cute." I can't stand the actress who plays her, but not even Meryl Streep could make the role likable for me :) 

 

Lorelai had some very definite flaws as a parent and even more as a human being, but my apparently UO is that I think she was a wonderful mother overall and arguably the very best parent on the show for me (which, admittedly, is a VERY low bar!) She was a pretty good friend, a not especially good girlfriend, and fairly iffy as a daughter...but, as a mother, I think she was phenomenally warm, loving, engaged, encouraging, energetic, patient, etc., and while she did try too hard to be Rory's friend, there are also numerous examples of her sliding readily into full-on mom mode when necessary.

 

If anything, I actually think one unrealistic aspect of the show---and we know there are many, many unrealistic things to choose from here!---is that young, single, immature, impulsive, working--as-a-maid-just-to-make-ends-meet Lorelai was able to be such an involved, cheerful and doting a mom with that relatively happy, well-adjusted and successful a daughter given the age at which she got pregnant and the fact that they began their lives in a potting shed. (I realize that living in a shed was Lorelai's choice, but still). I've sometimes wondered what I would have truly and honestly been like as a single mother at 16...and trust me when I tell you that the answer would terrify us all :)

Edited December 11, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Melancholy]

I also thought Lorelai was a wonderful mother- which I always thought was a Popular Opinion! I mean, if Lorelai motherfuckin' (lol) Gilmore isn't a Good TV Mother than....who is?! But to go further, I basically never thought Lorelai failed Rory by trying too hard to be Rory's best friend. The only way that I can sorta see that is that Rory would join Lorelai in Lorelai's unhealthy diet, habit of living paycheck to paycheck because Lorleai spent on nonsense and frills before saving, and acting rude and entitled to others- but I don't see that as Lorelai not disciplining Rory so much as Lorelai not curbing her own (mildly) unhealthy habits because she has a child. It's not good but you know, if I had a Gilmore Girl body/metabolism and safety-valve of Old Money funds, I'd probably indulge too. (And I know there's bigger health problems in eating unhealthy than weight gain or a bad complexion- I like to believe that The Gilmore Girls were healthy and would stay that way on top of looking good.) I can't get angry at Lorelai for living to the hilt of her prodigious genetic gifts and bringing her daughter along the ride because Rory's similarly gorgeous and Mayflower Boat-endowed. 

 

However, I don't think Lorelai let Rory get away with any bad behavior that Lorelai herself wasn't indulging in without Lorelai using as much of her influence and power as possible to keep Rory in line. When Rory really fucked up, Lorelai reliably scolded Rory for it.

 

This is probably an UO- I don't have a problem with all of Lorelais YOU'RE THE BEST KID stuff. I think it's nice and more the point, a fair parenting choice. But then, I think parents, within reason, should compliment and cuddle their children as much as possible. There's a whole wider world looking to withhold affection and tear newly minted adults down. I think there's a reasonable difference of opinion on whether it's better to go for Lorelai-adoration or more a bit more restrained diet of compliments- but I don't think going in either direction is bad parenting. And IMO, Lorleai actively and pointedly making up for a mostly missing father to imbue Rory with love and caring and self-esteem. 

 

I thought Lorelai's worst parenting aspect wasn't Being a Best Friend but instead when Lorelai let her other (IMO, worse) human-deficiencies affect Rory. Lorelai's romantic drama with Max. Lorelai getting the middle of Rory's relationship with her grandparents. When Lorelai would use Rory as a go-between to get stuff from Luke. Being too invested in her romance with Christopher to get angry at Rory's behalf at him. However, all things considered, I didn't think this was too bad and certainly enough to outweigh Lorelai's strengths as a parents. However, it underscored that Lorelai was much better at being a parent than any other role in her life- but you know, I THINK THAT'S PRETTY ENDEARING. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

young, single, immature, impulsive, working--as-a-maid-just-to-make-ends-meet Lorelai was able to be such an involved, cheerful and doting a mom with that relatively happy, well-adjusted and successful a daughter given the age at which she got pregnant and the fact that they began their lives in a potting shed

 

 I didn't find it too outlandish. I have known individuals, including family members, who have coped with comparable circumstances. They did so with grace and good humour and raised achieving and productive children, without a felon in the bunch.

 

Lorelai  by all accounts hated being controlled by the rules and strictures of  others. Working initially as a maid and living in Stars Hollow were choices she had made. As it turned out she enjoyed work in the hospitality field, was good at it and was able to work her way up to a senior position at the Inn. As well, the town she chose for the two of them was  both convivial and welcoming. The options she herself had  selected  were rewarded.

 

Of course she also had a safety net available to few others in similar situations. Should she lose her job, she or Rory become seriously ill,  or they face some other dire circumstances, she knew she could always return to Hartford and live with the senior Gilmores. True, a large amount of crow would have to be eaten. But it is not as if they would be hungry and homeless.

[txhorns79]

Lorelai's romantic drama with Max.

 

Lorelai's romantic drama with Max was possibly her worst parenting during the series.  It still amazes me that she's like a week from marrying Max, and apparently they've never discussed what Max's role will be with regards to Rory!  I understand that it's not like Max is going to be raising a small child, but I honestly have no idea how you can bring someone into your home as your spouse without having some kind of plan in place. 

 

 

I have known individuals, including family members, who have coped with comparable circumstances. They did so with grace and good humour and raised achieving and productive children, without a felon in the bunch.

 

You had friends and family members who lived under comparable circumstances to teenage runaways living in sheds as single parents?     

 

 

If anything, I actually think one unrealistic aspect of the show---and we know there are many, many unrealistic things to choose from here!---is that young, single, immature, impulsive, working--as-a-maid-just-to-make-ends-meet Lorelai was able to be such an involved, cheerful and doting a mom with that relatively happy, well-adjusted and successful a daughter given the age at which she got pregnant and the fact that they began their lives in a potting shed.

 

I think there's a pretty big fantasy aspect to Lorelai's story.  She was extremely lucky to run away from home and immediately find a benevolent boss who not only provided free room and board, but also acted as a surrogate mother to both she and Rory.  I think for most teenage runaways with infants, that's not what happens to them.

Edited December 12, 2015 by txhorns79

[Melancholy]

Lorelai's romantic drama with Max was possibly her worst parenting during the series.  It still amazes me that she's like a week from marrying Max, and apparently they've never discussed what Max's role will be with regards to Rory!  I understand that it's not like Max is going to be raising a small child, but I honestly have no idea how you can bring someone into your home as your spouse without having some kind of plan in place. 

 

Also, I never bought that Lorelai was into Max enough to justify Lorelai starting something with Rory's teacher (at the snotty, judgmental but important school that Rory just started at.) I mean, to paraphase the lady herself, "If you think that's the big love of your life, then great. . .throw all caution to the wind and forget what people have to say about you and go after him." However, I never bought that Lorelai was more than fond of Max- and she let her desperation for a man impact Rory's school and home life. 

[JayInChicago]

WHo is the worse parent, Christopher Hayden or Liz _____...Danes I guess?

[dustylil]

JayInChicago, Liz, by far, in my view.

Rory at least had a devoted mother in Lorelai in her life and Chris - on those likely rare occasions when he thought about it - knew she was well cared for. And as back up Rory had Richard and Emily.

Jess growing up had nobody in his life but Liz.  And her priorities appeared to be elsewhere. He had no relationship with his father and barely appeared to know his uncle in Stars Hollow.

[Melancholy]

I agree, Liz is the worst. Chris did have the back-up that dustylill mentioned which made his inattention a little more forgivable. In addition, I thought Chris showed that he was capable of stepping up the plate later in life as a parent with Gigi than Liz did with Douhla. Chris may have spoiled Gigi but I thought he was trying to make sensible, involved choices for her even though he's not particularly sensible himself. Meanwhile, Liz with dumping TJ preemptively and leaving Douhla at the diner just seemed like an alarming parent even when she supposedly had her act together.

 

I also didn't think Christopher really LOVED Rory and I reliably never got any warm and fuzzies out of a Rory/Christopher scene. However, I, at least, felt that Christopher had this....yearning to be a better father than he was and a self-knowledge that Rory is a very special girl and it's his fault that he never could connect with her. Meanwhile, I thought Liz's vibe with Jess was just chilling. I got nothing out of Liz in her scenes with Jess other than a gross entitlement for him to play a specific part in her Drama of the Week. No love, no guilt for what she did to him, no wish to be a better mom, no appreciation of her son as a person- just this smug cutsey pit of WANT as Liz is with everyone.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

I thought Liz's vibe with Jess was just chilling. I got nothing out of Liz in her scenes with Jess other than a gross entitlement for him to play a specific part in her Drama of the Week. No love, no guilt for what she did to him, no wish to be a better mom, no appreciation of her son as a person- just this smug cutsey pit of WANT as Liz is with everyone

 

If there had been a heartfelt thanks to Jess for walking her down the aisle for that Hobbit wedding or an anguished conversation with Luke about how she wanted to be a better mother to her second child I might be inclined to be the teensiest bit sympathetic toward her, but no. At least Christopher expressed regrets about his failings as a father. However from Liz, nothing of the sort.

Edited December 12, 2015 by dustylil

[takalotti]

Lorelai's romantic drama with Max was possibly her worst parenting during the series.  It still amazes me that she's like a week from marrying Max, and apparently they've never discussed what Max's role will be with regards to Rory!  I understand that it's not like Max is going to be raising a small child, but I honestly have no idea how you can bring someone into your home as your spouse without having some kind of plan in place. 

The answer is the person should be integrated into your life and your child's life before you even get engaged such that you don't need to make a plan. You should already be living the plan. I realize that sounds super blanket-judgey, but I'm really just judging Lorelai's impulsiveness. I'm sure there's a thousand exceptions to my statement, but in the case of Lorelai and Max, not figuring out Max's role as stepdad was just one of many indicators that they were idiots and shouldn't get married.

WHo is the worse parent, Christopher Hayden or Liz _____...Danes I guess?

Ooo, that's a tough one. The absentee parent (even with Gigi, I consider Chris an absentee parent, both before and after Sheri left) or the toxic parent? I really don't know. They're both different versions of selfish.

[txhorns79]

Ooo, that's a tough one. The absentee parent (even with Gigi, I consider Chris an absentee parent, both before and after Sheri left) or the toxic parent? I really don't know. They're both different versions of selfish.

 

I would say Liz, if only because she seemed more actively harmful to Jess. 

 

 

I realize that sounds super blanket-judgey, but I'm really just judging Lorelai's impulsiveness. I'm sure there's a thousand exceptions to my statement, but in the case of Lorelai and Max, not figuring out Max's role as stepdad was just one of many indicators that they were idiots and shouldn't get married.

 

Judge away!  That's what this forum is here for! 

[Melancholy]

Ooo, that's a tough one. The absentee parent (even with Gigi, I consider Chris an absentee parent, both before and after Sheri left) or the toxic parent? I really don't know. They're both different versions of selfish.

 

What makes you say Chris was absent to Gigi? I thought he was there for Gigi- but not Rory. 

[takalotti]

What makes you say Chris was absent to Gigi? I thought he was there for Gigi- but not Rory.

At first it seemed that way. He went back to Sheri so that he wouldn't miss out again. Everything seemed great. I'm pretty sure that at the shower Sheri gushed about how super involved Chris was during the pregnancy, and we saw him at the hospital when Gigi was born.

Then, if memory serves, we don't see him again until he called Lorelai in a panic because Sheri left and he couldn't handle Gigi. Okay, I get it. Chris just got a huge upheaval. Major stress factor. Perhaps he would have been in a better state parenting Gigi alone if it was a planned weekend trip Sheri went on and not "here's a letter telling you your marriage is over."

But the whole situation just reeked of "I'm here, but I'm not really here" to me. "I did everything on paper I was supposed to, marrying Sheri, living in the same house as my daughter," but no actual practical parenting from Chris' end. That was for the nannies and Sheri. I felt that way during the first run when I wasn't a parent, and I still feel that way now that I have two toddlers. I can't imagine my husband being as helpless as Chris appeared to be in that episode. Poor girl just lost her mom and has no idea why, and Chris is all "Ugh! Just go to sleep!" His goal was to silence her, not to actually comfort her which it seemed he wasn't capable of doing. He even says...

L: She is your daughter.

C: And I don't even know her. I've been gone so much.

And then later, it seemed Chris was still relying on the nannies to parent Gigi in the episode where Lorelai calls Chris out for letting Gigi turn into a brat. I haven't worked with nannies or daycare or anything, but I would guess that most parents lay out their parenting standards (from simple stuff like "no food in her bedroom" to more important stuff like "she's been hitting lately and this is how I've been handling it so far") so that the nanny can be on the same page. Or you pick your nanny or daycare based on how well their standards and procedures match with yours. But with Chris it seemed to be "Do whatcha gotta do to get through a day with her. Just make sure she's alive when I come home." That's not parenting.

Sorry for ranting so much. I forget how much Chris-hate I have. I think I actually have more Gigi related Chris-hate than Rory related.

TL;DR - He provided for Gigi but did not parent her, so I still call that being absent.

ETA:

Judge away!  That's what this forum is here for!

Well, the forum is here to judge the show. I didn't want to come across as judging any real life people, including those on this forum/thread. I'm sure there are people who didn't fully integrate co-parenting roles before getting engaged. I'm not even sure my parents did that when they each remarried. But I'd bet most people would make that one of the top priorities shortly after the engagement and well before walking down the aisle instead of treating it like an afterthought. Unless you are Lorelai ... Or Liz ... Or Chris ...

Edited December 12, 2015 by takalotti

[Melancholy]

Aw, I'm no Chris-fan but I guess I'm the position of a sort-of defending him. My impression was that pre-Sherri leaving, Chris was a like a lot of new fathers- Chris went out and worked his full-time, office corporate job for most of the day and then, when he went home, he only expected to do the fun parts of the parenting when he felt like it. I wouldn't call that "absent" so much as a still common experience that male privilege still renders child-rearing "woman's work", even though the mother in this case had her own demanding corporate job. I think it's lazy parenting, more than absent parenting since Chris was living in the house and supporting Gigi and Gigi didn't seem like a stranger to him. 

 

When Gigi left, I thought Chris really took over quite a lot of the parenting, even though he wasn't good at it and he had nannies to help him a lot of the day. Gigi always seemed clean and dressed and well-fed and healthy- some of that had to be down to Chris. His nanny left for part of the day. He seemed actively involved in the hunt for a good pre-school program and invested in her success. Chris sucked at disciplining Gigi and part of what was how he was ignorant about the problem. But when Lorelai pointed it out to him and it sunk in, he (actually weirdly eagerly) disciplined Gigi and the Gigi of S7 was well-behaved and seemed to understand her limits before she needed to be scolded. 

 

I'll cosign that despite his happy-go-lucky affect, Chris really was never warm or nurturing. It's like it's a switch that's entirely missing- compared to Emily, Richard, Mrs. Kim who spent most of their time being stern disciplinarians as parents but could really feel and show immense warmth and love at times. Chris is better about fufilling this obligations. IMO, he's a present parent. I just don't think he's a very good one and I don't think he'll ever get good at comforting or giving Gigi well-worded, thoughtful, meaningful advice as she grows up. He's just not that deep or compassionate as a person- but he is a more responsible person so he has that going for him. 

[dustylil]

Much as I dislike Christopher, I can't fault him for using nannies in the day to day care of Gigi. I think it would be unusual  for a man of his means and social background not to. Until  he became a gazillionaire he was working for all of Gigi's life. It is a perfectly reasonable arrangement (assuming competency of both employer and nanny of course). Even Emily who didn't work outside the home had similar child care for Lorelai.  

I do however blame him for two things involving Gigi. First,  the original plan to send Gigi off to Paris with just her caregiver. Second, the impetuous marriage to Lorelai (of course, I fault her equally  for this one). Little if any thought was given to how such upheavals would affect the little girl. I've seen more planning involved in preparing a school age child for  week long sleep away camp. I have occasionally pondered on what impact the second divorce had on the child.

[DisneyBoy]

My new UO is that I didn't much like Doyle with Paris. Sure, it was fine since they were both in each other's orbits and single, and yes, they were both the same height (haha?) but aside from sparring in their living room, I saw no spark. They were put together because it was fun to write them as a couple maybe but I got no pleasure watching it.

It was like the show just decided they were married and that was that.

I know Paris isn't easy to love, but I was hoping we would continue to see her date after Doyle.

[JayInChicago]

While years apart, there is a sort of interesting bookending with regards to how 'who' Max would be to Rory post marriage and similar with Lorelai and Gigi. I bet the writers who inherited the show in season 7 were a bit flummoxed with what to do with Gigi. Even though Gigi could have used a loving step mom, it was pretty clear Lorelai had little interest in that. Then again, the beginning of season 7 is really 'off' and quite bad to the point of noncanonical ness.

 

Back to the Liz Danes subject, she really is The Worst.

[dustylil]

It was like the show just decided they were married and that was that.

I know Paris isn't easy to love, but I was hoping we would continue to see her date after Doyle.

 

Did I miss something? I thought Doyle and Paris were only married in Rory's dream in Lorelai? Lorelai?. And living with their children in the Gilmore home in Stars Hollow, no less.

Certainly they planned to be together after Paris graduated but there were no actual nuptials. I am not suggesting it was a bad match. But given the volatility of Paris, I don't think the marriage was a given.

[DisneyBoy]

No, they never wed, but I mean she was as good as married off to him. The writers coupled them up, same as Sookie and Jackson, Zach and Lane...

Edited December 12, 2015 by DisneyBoy

[dustylil]

Cheer up DisneyBoy! In the Gilmore Girls universe most  couples who lived in sin (now there's a term you don't often hear anymore), didn't go the distance - even if they did get married along the way - Rory and Logan, Christopher and Sherry, Lorelai and Luke. So perhaps Paris is off somewhere dating an age appropriate Asher Fleming clone.

[txhorns79]

Much as I dislike Christopher, I can't fault him for using nannies in the day to day care of Gigi. I think it would be unusual  for a man of his means and social background not to.

 

I don't think it had much to do with social background so much as Christopher had pretty limited options for child care once Sherry left.  If he wanted to continue working full time, it was either get a nanny, or put the kid in daycare.  

 

 

But I'd bet most people would make that one of the top priorities shortly after the engagement and well before walking down the aisle instead of treating it like an afterthought. Unless you are Lorelai ... Or Liz ... Or Chris ...

 

Yeah, I would hope that the couple has that conversation.  The whole thing with Lorelai and Max was just absurd.   

[takalotti]

I don't fault Chris (or even Chris and Sherry - sorry for the wrong spelling earlier) for hiring nannies. When you're a working parent/couple, it's either that or a daycare, and I don't think either is a better or worse parenting decision.

The issue I have is that I perceived Chris as using Gigi's childcare, whatever it might be, as the primary role of raising his daughter. IMO, and as Lorelai snarked in the episode where she calls Chris out, isn't that the parents' job? Parents should be the foundation and childcare should be the support, not the other way around.

Edited December 13, 2015 by takalotti

[Eyes High]

Cheer up DisneyBoy! In the Gilmore Girls universe most couples who lived in sin (now there's a term you don't often hear anymore), didn't go the distance - even if they did get married along the way - Rory and Logan, Christopher and Sherry, Lorelai and Luke. So perhaps Paris is off somewhere dating an age appropriate Asher Fleming clone.

Wow. I hadn't realized that, but...wow. What a weirdly conservative little show this could be.

Even though it was played largely for laughs, Paris dating an older professor did not surprise me at all. I've seen it happen in real life with a similar girl, although the age gap wasn't nearly as large. I think Paris would be happier with someone older, although perhaps not as old as Asher: secure and confident enough not to be threatened by Paris' intelligence, mature enough to take Paris' freakouts in stride, sufficiently advanced in his career to avoid the potential for competition, sufficiently distanced from his 20s to appreciate what Paris would bring to the relationship table (responsibility, seriousness, maturity, intellectual compatibility, etc.).

Purely anecdotally, my observation has been that girls like Paris are inclined to date up in age, although it's usually five or 10 years as opposed to whatever the Paris-Asher age gap is. Also, she was planning on law school, and, again anecdotally, the lawyers I know married other lawyers. Stacking her up against straight female law students and lawyers I know, they usually married male lawyers who were older and several years more advanced in their careers than their wives.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Eyes High

[Guest]

Aw, I'm no Chris-fan but I guess I'm the position of a sort-of defending him. My impression was that pre-Sherri leaving, Chris was a like a lot of new fathers- Chris went out and worked his full-time, office corporate job for most of the day and then, when he went home, he only expected to do the fun parts of the parenting when he felt like it. I wouldn't call that "absent" so much as a still common experience that male privilege still renders child-rearing "woman's work", even though the mother in this case had her own demanding corporate job. I think it's lazy parenting, more than absent parenting since Chris was living in the house and supporting Gigi and Gigi didn't seem like a stranger to him.

 

I completely agree. I don't think he was an absent parent for Gigi. I think he worked a lot and, yes, she had nannies.  But that isn't unusual at all.  A lot of families tend to function with a "default parent" where one parent tends to handle most of the parenting decisions, even when both work outside the home.  Chris was so passive and Sherry was so Type A that I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case for them.

 

Liz was, unquestionably to me, the worst parent of the show.  

[ghoulina]

Cheer up DisneyBoy! In the Gilmore Girls universe most  couples who lived in sin (now there's a term you don't often hear anymore), didn't go the distance - even if they did get married along the way - Rory and Logan, Christopher and Sherry, Lorelai and Luke. So perhaps Paris is off somewhere dating an age appropriate Asher Fleming clone.

 

 

Perhaps the son she offered to set Rory up with? ;)

Liz was, unquestionably to me, the worst parent of the show.

 

I'm going to have to go with Kirk's mom. 

[Commando Cody]

Kirk was quirky, but he always had a job and he managed to save up 250,000 dollars at a fairly young age. He wasn't a bad person - except when he tried to outbid Luke for the house. Other than that he seemed nice and wasn't pulling mean pranks on people. He managed to hold on to his relationship with his girlfriend. He was a terrible mailman though.

 

Lorelai messed up when she confronted Taylor about her inn being historically significant. Kirk delivered the letter to the wrong person. She should have ignored it like she never received it. 

[Taryn74]

A lot of families tend to function with a "default parent" where one parent tends to handle most of the parenting decisions, even when both work outside the home.  Chris was so passive and Sherry was so Type A that I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case for them.

 

Exactly.  I had a friend who was quite a bit like Sherry in that regard - it was her way or the highway, especially when it came to raising her kids.  Her husband pretty much just stayed out the way and did whatever she told him to do, which wasn't much.  She was convinced nobody could do anything right but her.

[dustylil]

He wasn't a bad person - except when he tried to outbid Luke for the house

 

I'd fault him more for setting up that al fresco diner after the car plowed through Luke's in Season 7.

[solotrek]

I'd fault him more for setting up that al fresco diner after the car plowed through Luke's in Season 7.

Didn't he also threaten to sue Luke for that for some reason? I found that entire storyline so bizarre.

[readster]

Didn't he also threaten to sue Luke for that for some reason? I found that entire storyline so bizarre.

More bizzarre where he was playing the lead role in an elementary school's production of Fiddler on the Roof where everyone else in the show is below the age of 11 and had to raise his hand to ask permission to go to the bathroom? Or he is singing a love song to a 9 year old who is suppose to be his wife in the musical?

Edited December 15, 2015 by readster

[txhorns79]

Kirk is bizarre, period.  Sometimes his weirdness works, other times it drags down an episode.  I view him like I would Urkel.  He's a character that is best in small doses, but someone got it into their heads that the only thing missing from various episodes was "more Kirk," so his part kept expanding.