One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[dustylil]

Yes, I didn't recall  hearing the terms "nympho" and "nymphomaniac" in reference to Lorelai previously. Although perhaps if we had overheard some dinner table conversation of Straub and Francine....

[amensisterfriend]

I forgot to mention yet another reason for starting to prefer the far more unpopular S6 to the generally liked S5: S6 is our first Dean-free season! That's a totally valid reason, right? ;) 

 

And as I continue to enjoy parts of this later phase of GG more than expected, I wanted to get the opinions of my brilliant fellow GG fans: Why do you guys think Logan was/is so generally disliked? The actor came off as too smirky and smarmy even when the scenes called for him to be sincere? People resented him because they felt Rory had far better chemistry and more of a connection with Jess? AS-P wrote him as more of a blatant jerk in S5 and made sure was had a pretty awful first impression of him by introducing him alongside a  particularly vile Colin?! There's a moderate amount of 'reverse classism' in the GG-verse whereby we're taught to assume that all the wealthy characters are jerks unless very frequently and explicitly proven otherwise? The fact that Rory happened to go through her rebellious stage while she was dating him? Rory just not seeming totally comfortable and herself while she was with him? AS-P just can't write and direct romantic couples in a way that makes you like and root for their relationship? The trinket pilfering and sex with multiple bridesmaids?!

 

I think for me it's been ALL of the above at various stages of my fandom, and some of those feelings still linger (hence my liking this couple more in fanfic and in my own weird little head than on screen!) But, unpopularly, I'm also finding that Logan was a better guy than I used to give him credit for, and I certainly see him as a vastly more compatible match for Rory than, say, Dean. In fact, given just how profoundly flawed most GG males are, I might even hold the UO that Logan was one of the best GG males of the series...if only by default ;) 

[Taryn74]

Personally it was really hard for me to shake that first impression, which was that he was an uppity, classist, jerk.  But upon repeated viewings, even that first impression was not fair to him because he himself wasn't even that much of a jerk -- it was mostly Colin.  (Finn was mostly just there for comic relief.)  Although the point could be argued that Logan didn't really do that much to shut Colin up whenever he was such a jackass toward Marty, at some point Colin has to be the one responsible for Colin's jerkiness, not Logan, you know?

 

I don't blame Logan for Rory's downward spiral, either, because that started long before she ever met him.  That started at the end of S4 when she began acting on her regrets of breaking up with Dean.

 

I do find his casual attitude about sex somewhat revolting, but that's certainly not something that is unique to him, so it's hard to actually fault him for that.

[amensisterfriend]

Thanks for responding, my friend! I loved reading your thoughts...as always :) 

 

 

I do find his casual attitude about sex somewhat revolting, but that's certainly not something that is unique to him, so it's hard to actually fault him for that.

 

Heh---true enough, especially as casual attitudes about sex and even marriage (!) are not exactly uncommon in the GG-verse :)

 

Speaking of which, I still hold the UO that Luke spontaneously marrying Nicole on that cruise is among the more ridiculous, annoyingly out-of-character storylines that AS-P ever wrote. (I mean this as a compliment when I say that a drunken impulsive marriage to someone he never even seemed to love is just NOT Luke, especially given that he himself admits one of his shortcomings is that he's too slow to make decisions and act---NOT too hasty and rash!) I'm guessing it doesn't get much heat from fans because 1) many GG fans are apt to reflexively defend and justify anything and everything that might make Luke look bad (I get it---I'm sometimes the same way involving S1-S4 Rory!), 2) many of us always tend to forget that the deadly dull Nicole even existed on the show and 3) that was back at the beginning of S4 when the series was still otherwise awesome and not giving us as much to complain about :) 

Edited June 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[dustylil]

I'm with you Taryn concerning early impressions of Logan. His moronic pals were rather loathsome but he wasn't too bad. And if Marty hadn't had had such a big chip on his shoulder, their exchange could have been viewed as just another form of business networking, college level. I did come to dislike him for his whiny "woe is me, I'm so rich and my family has expectations of me". But  of course, that could be due to the big chip on my shoulder ;)

I didn't  find his casual attitude towards sex particularly surprising. A young,  aimless,  good looking, very well-to-do male - I would have been shocked if it had been otherwise.

 

As to aquatic elopement of Luke and Nicole - it didn't bother me half as much as Luke deciding to rekindle their relationship after the divorce proceedings were started. He clearly didn't love her and made little effort to make a go of their marriage. But of course she had to be the one who was unfaithful so his callousness could pretty much be ignored.

[solotrek]

Speaking of which, I still hold the UO that Luke spontaneously marrying Nicole on that cruise is among the more ridiculous, annoyingly out-of-character storylines that AS-P ever wrote.

 

I think it was so dumb and so quickly sort of rushed over, weird, and poorly written that it's hard for me to care. It's not that I loved it, but the show never made it seem like it was something that was going to stick. It seemed like it was something they wrote and then after writing it went "oops" and then "this is boring" and then "well I guess we have to do something about it". On top of that, Nicole just wasn't that great a character and she wasn't on screen very often, so we never necessarily felt the weight of that relationship. 

[amensisterfriend]

it didn't bother me half as much as Luke deciding to rekindle their relationship after the divorce proceedings were started. He clearly didn't love her and made little effort to make a go of their marriage. But of course she had to be the one who was unfaithful so his callousness could pretty much be ignored.

 

This is one of several reasons why I hold the UO of thinking GG started falling apart as early as midway through S4, not midway through S5. It was such lazy, sloppy writing to suddenly make Nicole a cheater, manipulatively trying to get us to sympathize with 'poor' Luke who was betrayed by that horrible wife of his and handwave away the myriad issues that were brought to the forefront by his relationships with both Rachel and Nicole and later Lorelai: passive aggressive claims to be 'in it' while pulling away until the woman in question finally tires of it, evasiveness to the point of borderline dishonesty, jealousy and insecurity, inability to communicate, angry rants in lieu of adult discussions etc. Similarly, the neurotically independent Digger who wouldn't even share a bed was suddenly turned into a scarily clingy, pathetic stalker, and Lorelai depicted as the 'noble' one for walking away from the guy who (quite justifiably!) felt compelled to sue her father in order to defend his own career and reputation. As much as I disliked Lorelai/Max and was indifferent to Luke/Rachel, at least in those relationships the significant others weren't sloppily vilified to falsely make Lorelai and Luke look like white knights who bore no responsibility for their own awful relationship choices, you know?! 

(And they did the same thing with Dean 2.0/3.0 or whatever---making Rory look the sympathetic heroine who was cruelly dumped twice in public by her dopey, temperamental bumpkin of a boyfriend---which, yeah, I couldn't stand Dean personally, but Rory was VERY much to blame for many of the issues between them, and the way he dumped her doesn't change that!) 

[takalotti]

And as I continue to enjoy parts of this later phase of GG more than expected, I wanted to get the opinions of my brilliant fellow GG fans: Why do you guys think Logan was/is so generally disliked? The actor came off as too smirky and smarmy even when the scenes called for him to be sincere? People resented him because they felt Rory had far better chemistry and more of a connection with Jess? AS-P wrote him as more of a blatant jerk in S5 and made sure was had a pretty awful first impression of him by introducing him alongside a  particularly vile Colin?! There's a moderate amount of 'reverse classism' in the GG-verse whereby we're taught to assume that all the wealthy characters are jerks unless very frequently and explicitly proven otherwise? The fact that Rory happened to go through her rebellious stage while she was dating him? Rory just not seeming totally comfortable and herself while she was with him? AS-P just can't write and direct romantic couples in a way that makes you like and root for their relationship? The trinket pilfering and sex with multiple bridesmaids?!

I promise, I tried not to ramble on. There are points I left out, I swear.

Basically, while I can admit that Logan became less awful as the series progressed, his foundation was just too shitty for me to get past.

Arrogant, entitled, condescending. These are not ways to act to win me over.

I think a lot of Logan fans use Colin to defend Logan. 'Colin was really the one acting like an ass, not Logan,' I often hear. While I agree that Colin was acting like a BIGGER ass than Logan, I don't agree that that means Logan was not also an ass. Also, there's the whole, 'you can measure a man by the company he keeps' proverb/idiom. Whatever dickish things Colin did, Logan seemed amused by them, laughing them off like 'Oh that Colin.' Logan may not have done those things, but he condoned them. Sure, he'd apologize for Colin and Finn's behavior sometimes, but IMO those weren't really apologies. I think he was totally fine with the arrangement of being entertained by his asshole friends and then being the 'good guy' who smooths things over afterwards.

I didn't like the way he spoke to Marty. Not just the "compliment" about making a good margarita (which really came off as, 'this is Marty's best quality,' to me), but how he made such a big deal about Marty being poor. Just ask, "Oh hey, are you still bartending? Because you were great and I'd hire you again in a second." No need to bring his 'financial situation' into it. And later on, inviting Marty to an expensive restaurant and not speaking up against an even bill split (when I'm guessing Marty probably just ordered what he could afford while others drank expensive alcohol) wasn't cool IMO. I know he offered to pay for Marty, and some take that as an indication of Logan's kindness and generosity, but I saw it as unintentional condescension. 'Here, let me pay for you, you need it.'

He really invaded people's space. I'm sure it was so there could be a tight camera shot between Rory and him outside her room, but I know I would have backed away from a stranger who was waving his hands around just a couple centimeters from my chest. And just taking stuff out of someone else's hands?

And I wasn't okay with how he was with Doyle. Part of me gets it: He can see right through Doyle's sucking up and is tired of having people just use him as a way to climb up a ladder. But they didn't really play him that way, always having to wonder if people actually were interested in him or his articles, or just his status. I will never understand how we were supposed to believe that Rory would be amused by him during his first appearance at the paper.

But mostly, there seemed to be a running theme of how things had to be his way. He wanted no strings attached, so that's how they started. Rory wanted to end it because she wasn't into NSA, so he pushed to be a couple and got it. He wanted to get back together and Rory didn't, so he pushed until he got his way. He wanted to get engaged and she wasn't ready for that, so it was over.

I get that he was supposed to be a guy that Rory liked first for once, that didn't just completely fall all over her for once, and I can appreciate that aspect. But that's about it. Anything else about him ties back to his foundation of being arrogant, entitled, and condescending, to me. And no amount of nice acts can outweigh that for me.

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, my personal (and admittedly mostly baseless!) fanwank is that the writers were initially clueless about Logan's intended role and the length of his stay, so they made him too much of a blatant ass in S5 as if betting that he'd be used as 'the one who taught Rory lessons about what she DIDN'T want' rather than 'the guy who ends up evolving enough to stick around until the end of the series.' I'm totally with you guys on finding it hard to move on from that first impression---honestly, it took me several rewatches before he grew on me!---and the actor's tendency to smile in a way that always looked so condescending and smirky to me didn't help matters :) That said, I really do think he was a lot more likable in his last two seasons. Still very flawed, but a little more mature and with some very clear strengths as well, which is more than we can say about the depiction of a lot of other GG males!  

 

 

 

Also, there's the whole, 'you can measure a man by the company he keeps' proverb/idiom. Whatever dickish things Colin did, Logan seemed amused by them, laughing them off like 'Oh that Colin.' Logan may not have done those things, but he condoned them.

 

We totally agree here. Other than 'cast a different and less smirk-prone actor and rewrite at least 80% of his S5 scenes', (minor and totally reasonable requests, no?!) my personal prescription for making Logan more likable to fans would have been to show him drifting naturally away from his ghastly Life and Death Brigade friends and forming some surprisingly strong friendships with different types of people---most notably the endearingly geeky sorts that Yale happens to have plenty of in real life but who we never saw much of on the show :) 

Edited June 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[solotrek]

Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, my personal (and admittedly mostly baseless!) fanwank is that the writers were initially clueless about Logan's intended role and the length of his stay,

 

Based on what we saw from the ATX panel, that seems to be the case. ASP basically said that she wanted Milo and Matt on the show after seeing them elsewhere and didn't want anyone else to get them. And based on what Jared and Scott had said about how they were offered 1 episode deals or 2 episode deals - basically a episode by episode basis (Scott being the only one to turn that down) and the fact that Matt wasn't even in the opening credits until S6 says that Matt was there on an episode-episode basis the entirety of S5. From what we saw happening with both Dean (after Jared wasn't a main cast member) and Marty, it's pretty obvious that ASP wrote characters based on the actor's availability rather than a decent arc for the character.

[amensisterfriend]

Heh---thanks, solotrek...I feel oddly vindicated :) I did notice a definite shift in the way they wrote him post-S5, and that's even taking the bridesmaid debacle into account. On a somewhat similar note, I wonder if Liz would have been depicted more sympathetically - or at least less UNsympathetically - when we first started hearing about her from Luke and Jess if the writers had known that she'd eventually become a permanent character, and one who we were apparently supposed to find endearing?! 

[Aloeonatable]

 

Basically, while I can admit that Logan became less awful as the series progressed, his foundation was just too shitty for me to get past.

 

My sentiments exactly. I just don't feel that the actor was that charismatic and to make him so unlikable at first made it almost impossible for me to care about him in later seasons. Add to that the fact that Rory became more vapid as the series progressed when she was in a relationship with him, and I just didn't care about him or their relationship.

[ghoulina]

This right here is the primary reason I didn't like Logan. Turtlenecks and blazers. 

 

 

[Kohola3]

Add to that the fact that Rory became more vapid as the series progressed when she was in a relationship with him, and I just didn't care about him or their relationship.

 

My sentiments exactly.  It what Rory became when she hooked up with them that made me hate him.  The minute she watched him steal that trinket and didn't say anything knowing that the maid would get fired - that was the defining moment for me.

[dustylil]

Mine as well.  I had increasingly been losing affection and respect for Rory since late Season 3 when she was ticked off at Lorelai  for repaying the  Chilton loan. This cemented it for me. Given her own childhood as the daughter of a maid, this is how she behaves when she knows the woman was innocent of the crime!

Not to defend Logan but playing puerile pranks was part of his rich kids world -  just as it had been for Richard and  Christopher.  The consequences for him were usually negligible. It would never occur to him that someone else might have to pay  a heavy price for his actions. Especially for something as trivial as this.

 

I have occasionally fantasized that the maid was at the marina that fateful night, saw what transpired and sounded the alarm about the yacht theft :)

[solotrek]

Don't remember which episode, but I do remember Lorelai doing something and it was also later blamed/to be blamed on a maid. I just finished my rewatch so I know it's not S6 or S7 (and I don't think it's S1). I don't remember what it was, but I do know it was a small thing that would definitely end up irking Emily to the point where I went, "come on".  But if Lorelai, who was a maid herself was ok with throwing maids under the bus, then I'm not really shocked or surprised that Rory wouldn't have spoken up.

 

This right here is the primary reason I didn't like Logan. Turtlenecks and blazers.

 

Not a fan of that combo either. But then again, I think turtlenecks are weird so that's just me...

 

I guess my UO is that I did like later season Rory (middle S6 and S7). I think middle seasons Rory lost me for a bit, the whole not giving a shit about breaking up a (n admittedly) bad marriage kind of does that.

 

And I also have an UO of I really liked the Logan character and thought Matt did a good job conveying the arrogant/condescension of a guy that is worth millions of dollars and can do whatever he wants and get away with it- but later a guy who finally grew up. Plus, after 2 predominately scowling boyfriends, Rory needed a smirker.

[txhorns79]

Don't remember which episode, but I do remember Lorelai doing something and it was also later blamed/to be blamed on a maid.

 

Maybe you are thinking of when Lorelai inadvertently got the wedding planner fired when she screwed up the seating at Richard and Emily's ceremony. 

[timimouse]

Maybe you are thinking of when Lorelai inadvertently got the wedding planner fired when she screwed up the seating at Richard and Emily's ceremony. 

 

That's what came to mind as well for me when I read that post. Irked me to no end as to how she could not step up at that point and say "Hey actually, i'm sorry but that was me."

[nolieblue]

I didn't like Logan from his first scene with Rory  -- when he's jabbing his finger at her when she's putting up flyers for the wake. I so wanted her to slap his hand away! But the kicker for me was when he got the maid fired for stealing the trinket. What a jerk. I know they meant Logan to be someone who would made Rory a bit more adventurous and take more risks but why did those risks have to be stupid, useless, things like "glamping" and bungee-jumping in an evening gown? I certainly didn't like the way Rory behaved when she was with him. 

 

I do like MC though and think he's great in the Good Wife. 

Edited June 16, 2015 by nolieblue

[Katherine]

For me there are a few main reasons the Rory/Logan pairing always irked me, many of which have already been articulated here:

-the lack of chemistry. I just saw no spark whatsoever. Contrast this with Rory/Jess, who had amazing chemistry, IMO -- chemistry that led to me overlooking the obvious flaws in their relationship.

-the pairing happened to coincide with Rory becoming less and less likeable to me. I just felt like her relationship with Logan contributed to her behaving in a way that seasons 1-4 Rory never would have. I get that they were trying to show that Rory was being exposed to a new world, but I just didn't find it to be realistic character development. I guess the poor writing is a lot more to blame than the character of Logan.

-I'm sure MC is a lovely guy but his acting just doesn't do it for me.

-I find the whole rich bad boy character cliched and overdone. I know, I'm a bit of a hypocrite with this one, seeing as how I'm a huge fan of tortured bad boy Jess.

That being said, I do much prefer Rory/Logan to Rory/Dean.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Katherine

[dustylil]

I am in no way defending the asinine and childish behaviour of Lorelai concerning messing up the vow renewal seating arrangements.

However, the planner at worst lost one client and one gig. She probably joined legions of planners, caterers and other service providers who got on the wrong side of Emily Gilmore. It may have even been a badge of honour :) That said, I entirely agree with others that Lorelai should have owned up to what she had done.

The maid, on the other hand,  would have lost her livelihood had the trinket not suddenly been found. And given the theft accusation, probably been blacklisted from working in the more well-to-do homes of Hartford.

 

Now that the vow renewal has come up again, may I offer this possibly Unpopular Opinion and  say how ludicrous I found it.  And not just because of those  unflattering outfits on Emily and Lorelai. If the senior Gilmores had indeed been in a position to celebrate forty years together, and given their enjoyment of parties, then it made sense. But  Richard and Emily had been separated for several months. Indeed Emily had quite recently and quite publicly been out on the town with Simon MacLean, one of their social circle.

 

One might think they would want to see if the reconciliation would take before going forward with such a public celebration of their partnership.  Especially in front of so many who knew of their estrangement. One can well imagine the caustic remarks of Emily had she been in attendance at a similar gathering - perhaps enquiring, given the recent dating history of the wife, if it was now to be an open marriage.

[txhorns79]

However, the planner at worst lost one client and one gig. She probably joined legions of planners, caterers and other service providers who got on the wrong side of Emily Gilmore. It may have even been a badge of honour :) That said, I entirely agree with others that Lorelai should have owned up to what she had done.

The maid, on the other hand,  would have lost her livelihood had the trinket not suddenly been found. And given the theft accusation, probably been blacklisted from working in the more well-to-do homes of Hartford.

 

Given Emily likely would tell all her friends that she fired the wedding planner because she screwed up the actual wedding planning, I can't imagine it would be seen as a badge of honor by anyone.  I'm not saying Rory's behavior was great vis a vis the maid and Logan's stealing, but Lorelai actually did get someone fired through her antics, and said nothing.  I mean, one can go on and on about how the situation with Logan showed a real character flaw for Rory and all the potential harm that could have resulted, but the reality was that no actual harm came to the maid.  For Lorelai, she actually caused real harm to an innocent third party and did nothing. 

[Kohola3]

I mean, one can go on and on about how the situation with Logan showed a real character flaw for Rory and all the potential harm that could have resulted, but the reality was that no actual harm came to the maid.

 

Well, we don't actually know that, do we?  We never saw a maid in two consecutive episodes which was, I guess, supposed to be a running commentary on The Trials and Tribulations of Working for the Gilmores.  And maids were routinely fired for less - didn't one get the sack over the walnuts in the salad?

For Lorelai, she actually caused real harm to an innocent third party and did nothing.

 

That was equally as wrong but on the plus side for the planner, everything had already been done. I doubt the planner had much more to do on the day of the ridiculous ceremony than cue people.  And knowing Emily, she was the epitome of a Bridezilla and the planner was probably glad to be free of her.

[txhorns79]

Well, we don't actually know that, do we?  We never saw a maid in two consecutive episodes which was, I guess, supposed to be a running commentary on The Trials and Tribulations of Working for the Gilmores.  And maids were routinely fired for less - didn't one get the sack over the walnuts in the salad?

 

You are right.  I should clarify.  We know that the maid was not fired for stealing this particular item and was not harmed in that way.  Though, Emily might just be a crazy person and fired her anyways, which I suppose is possible. 

 

 

That was equally as wrong but on the plus side for the planner, everything had already been done. I doubt the planner had much more to do on the day of the ridiculous ceremony than cue people.  And knowing Emily, she was the epitome of a Bridezilla and the planner was probably glad to be free of her.

 

While I'm sure Emily was a pain to work with, I would have trouble believing the planner would be happy to be fired from a job, particularly over something that she did not actually do. 

[solotrek]

And maids were routinely fired for less - didn't one get the sack over the walnuts in the salad?

 

To be fair to Emily, it seemed like the maid was told repeatedly before the dinner and during the dinner to get the walnuts out of the salad. The maid seemed to constantly remake it putting walnuts in the salad to the point where the meal was significantly delayed because every salad came back with walnuts. And the show made us see how incompetent that maid was being, it wasn't the same as the maid who got fired for putting a place for Lorelai (after the whole vow renewal debacle) because Emily wanted to save face and pretend to know that Lorelai wasn't coming.  But Emily did have her share of horrible maids. There was also the one who couldn't figure out the difference between the doorbell and the oven timer. Or the one who spoke in a frantic whisper before running away from the room.

[Kohola3]

Or the one who spoke in a frantic whisper before running away from the room.

 

Oh, I quite liked her. Emily scared her virtually speechless.  I'd probably be the same way.

[MrsMommy]

My unpopular opinion is

Drum roll

I absolutely loved gilmore girls!! And when my daughter gets a little older I definitely plan to watch it with her!

[Taryn74]

LOL MrsMommy.  How old is your daughter?  I love that my 16 yo has most of the episodes memorized the same way that I do.

[dustylil]

Taryn, my then  teenage daughter tried to get me interested in the series when it first aired. I thought it way too sappy. Particularly the apparent worship of her daughter on the part of Lorelai :)

 

I wonder if there was a club in Hartford - or perhaps a support group - of former Gilmore maids, groundskeepers, cooks,  nannies, caterers, event planners, and other service providers that got together on a regular basis to tell Emily stories and encourage the members to come to terms with their fears and night terrors.

[amensisterfriend]

Drum roll

I absolutely loved gilmore girls!! And when my daughter gets a little older I definitely plan to watch it with her!

 

If loving GG is unpopular, I have no desire to ever be popular again :) Welcome to the insanity. We're often a hypercritical and snarky bunch here, but mostly it's because we care so much...warped reasoning, I realize! 

Edited June 16, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[MrsMommy]

LOL MrsMommy. How old is your daughter? I love that my 16 yo has most of the episodes memorized the same way that I do.

She is still a bit to young to watch what I would concider a preteen show - adult she is 7 will be 8 next month. She watches with me sometimes but mostly she is into cartoons still ( monster high)

If loving GG is unpopular, I have no desire to ever be popular again :) Welcome to the insanity. We're often a hypercritical and snarky bunch here, but mostly it's because we care so much...warped reasoning, I realize!

I may have been off with that comment. I read another thread in these forums and it seems like everything is hate. Makes me kinda sad actually because I'd love to be able to chat about the show's I love with like minded folks

[amensisterfriend]

Oh, by all means, please chime in with the love---I even created a Why We Still Love GG Thread that's around here someplace, and there are also a ton of threads where we gush constantly about our favorite seasons and episodes :) 

[Taryn74]

Oh girl everybody here LOVES GG, trust me on that one LOL.  It's just that we've been at this so long (as individuals, and as a group for most of us even, heh) that we've moved into the "they're my family so I love them but I won't hesitate to tell them they drive me crazy" kind of territory.  :)

 

She is still a bit to young to watch what I would concider a preteen show - adult she is 7 will be 8 next month. She watches with me sometimes but mostly she is into cartoons still ( monster high)

 

 

Aww, that's precious!  I have a 16 yo daughter and 14 and 10 yo sons.  And my daughter was like 15 before I'd let her watch past the first couple of "innocent" seasons of GG, heh.  I wanted her to be old enough to understand that just because I enjoy the show and love the characters, it doesn't mean I agree with the way they live their lives.

[JayInChicago]

This probably isn't a super UO but...

 

My love for Paris grows and grows. I think she is one of the most strongly characterized TV show characters I've ever seen...certainly one of the most on this show. You could set your watch to her. You could pretty much think of anything life decision and think "what would paris gellar do?" and have a pretty damn good idea of what she would do. was she nutty and annoying? yes. but ASP, DP, writers...they knew exactly who she was.

[txhorns79]

My love for Paris grows and grows. I think she is one of the most strongly characterized TV show characters I've ever seen...certainly one of the most on this show. You could set your watch to her. You could pretty much think of anything life decision and think "what would paris gellar do?" and have a pretty damn good idea of what she would do. was she nutty and annoying? yes. but ASP, DP, writers...they knew exactly who she was.

 

At times, she is awesome (I absolutely love her insane taped Harvard admissions interview), but I really don't like that they made her a nut job in order to build up Rory at the YDN.   

[ghoulina]

I don't know that that was totally out of character for Paris, though. She had been shown to become hyper focused on things and lose the ability to be self aware - like her college interview that she taped. It's possible they went a little too far, but it didn't seem totally un-Paris like to me.

[txhorns79]

I don't know that that was totally out of character for Paris, though. She had been shown to become hyper focused on things and lose the ability to be self aware - like her college interview that she taped. It's possible they went a little too far, but it didn't seem totally un-Paris like to me.

 

I think they had Paris build a bunker in the middle of the newsroom, and cover it with news clips like she was in the film, A Beautiful Mind.  I have no issue with showing Paris losing the confidence of her staff because she doesn't know how to deal with them, or otherwise is just overwhelmed by the job, but I thought they portrayed her as having some kind of mental break. 

[Taryn74]

I agree with both viewpoints, LOL.  On the one hand, it was a very "Paris Gellar" thing to do, but it really did go just a bit too far.

[solotrek]

Yes, I didn't recall  hearing the terms "nympho" and "nymphomaniac" in reference to Lorelai previously.

 

Stepping back to the nympho thing for a second. Jackson's brother had met Lorelai already when Davey was born in The Festival of Living Art. That was years after Rune was around. Why would whatever Rune had said have mattered since Beau had already met her within the last year or two whereas Rune hadn't been around for almost 5 years. That storyline would only make sense if it was the first time Beau met Lorelai. Edit: I remember the Rune was around for the Bracebridge dinner so that's season 2 he was still around. Also Google tells me that Bracebridge Dinner is an actual thing in Yosemite.

 

I have no issue with showing Paris losing the confidence of her staff because she doesn't know how to deal with them, or otherwise is just overwhelmed by the job, but I thought they portrayed her as having some kind of mental break.

 

Rory was constantly saying that Paris needed to get her dosage adjusted (when Paris shoved her in a closet her first date with Jaime, and I recall a few other times). Judging by her pharmacy of psychiatric pills (benzos, SSRIs, TCAs) in her purse in We've Got Magic To Do, she has anxiety/OCD/depression/or some TV variant of these (though FYI some of the pills she has in there are contraindicated and after our pharma-psych unit, I was pissed that the show would be that blase about how she'd just take pills randomly). It's not hard to see how the incredibly amount of stress she put on herself, on others, and then herself again could force her to become bunker Paris. From some of what I saw in my psych rotation, it was pretty tame for someone like Paris.

 

Actually, don't know how unpopular this opinion is, but the show was absolute shit in terms of showing mental health and was pretty demeaning about mental health professionals. Emily mentioning that only crazy people see psychiatrists and how dare Lorelai mention that Richard should see someone. Or Lorelai making fun of Rory to have to see someone before going back to Yale and how it's always the mother's fault (though it kind of is in Rory's case). Lorelai has a session with a counselor in the back of a car and makes a horrible rash decision that only tangentially fits with what she was told. They basically used every ugly stereotype that's out there and it's actually really offensive.

 

I say this as I sit here really really enjoying Friday Night Lights S1, the incredible chemistry of Kyle Chandler and Connie Britton and the wonderful intimate writing that supported them. That's good romance writing.

 

Just an FYI, once you watch FNL, no TV marriage/relationship will ever be as good.

Edited June 30, 2015 by solotrek

[ghoulina]

Stepping back to the nympho thing for a second. Jackson's brother had met Lorelai already when Davey was born in The Festival of Living Art. That was years after Rune was around. Why would whatever Rune had said have mattered since Beau had already met her within the last year or two whereas Rune hadn't been around for almost 5 years. That storyline would only make sense if it was the first time Beau met Lorelai. Edit: I remember the Rune was around for the Bracebridge dinner so that's season 2 he was still around. Also Google tells me that Bracebridge Dinner is an actual thing in Yosemite.

 

Rune and Beau are related, though. So might it be possible they saw each other at some family function outside of Stars Hollow? Maybe they were talking about chicks one night and for some reason Rune made up this crazy story about Lorelei. 

[takalotti]

Rune and Beau are related, though. So might it be possible they saw each other at some family function outside of Stars Hollow? Maybe they were talking about chicks one night and for some reason Rune made up this crazy story about Lorelei.

I think solotrek's point was, (a) why would Beau need Rune's "intel" on Lorelai when he's met Lorelai himself? And (b) theoretically Beau's encounter should trump Rune's since it was more recent ("Dude, she's a nympho." "Maybe she was but she's not anymore.")

While I see that point, I think what TPTB were going for is that Rune knew more about Lorelai. Beau only really met her in passing last time. Then Rune tells Beau all about Lorelai's "risqué" past and that the ONLY conclusion possible is that she's a nympho. And then Beau is enough of a dunderhead to believe it, since he wants it to be true.

[amensisterfriend]

As most of you guys know, I absolutely adore Paris and think her friendship/frenemyship with Rory is not just one of the two best relationships shown on the show, but one of the best platonic female friendships depicted on any show ever. That said, I don't hold the seemingly popular opinion of feeling that Rory should have been a better friend to Paris. As much as I love her as a fictional character, in real life Paris would be an absolute nightmare to deal with. If I were Rory, I'm not even sure I could have so easily and readily forgiven Paris for her Mean Girl awfulness in the first part of S1 and a series of other mean freakouts and nuttiness throughout, let alone embrace her as a close friend of mine. All things considered, I found Rory remarkably tolerant, patient and even supportive where Paris is concerned...but then you guys know I also hold the UO of liking Rory a lot more than most fans do :) 

[HeySandyStrange]

As much as I love her as a fictional character, in real life Paris would be an absolute nightmare to deal with.

 

 

Not only do I agree with this, I'd go a step further with my UO and admit that I often found the Paris character over the top, over-bearing, and unpleasant. Liz Weil is talented, so she was able to rise above some of the craziness that was Paris Geller and gave her a human side, to give credit where it was due. Rory deserves a lot of credit for her friendship with Paris, especially since it wasn't her who sought it out. Rory is way more forgiving then I would've been after some of the crap Paris pulled.

 

Random Paris-related aside, but ever since I found out that irl Doyle is one of the co-creators of Empire, I've pictured Cookie Lyons and Paris Geller coming to face to face. Nothing short pure awesomeness would come from that, I'm sure.

Edited July 1, 2015 by HeySandyStrange

[solotrek]

Liz Weil is talented, so she was able to rise above some of the craziness that was Paris Geller and gave her a human side, to give credit where it was due.

 

From the reunion panel, it was pretty funny to see Liz Weil talk about her reaction when she found out that Paris was written especially for her. From a young actress standpoint, she was terrified/horrified that they saw her as a Paris Geller. But you're right, without her humanity, Paris would have been a nightmare character. Like Francie (the leader of the Puffs/senior class president) except more of a Stephen King novel (as Rory once called her).

 

That said, I don't hold the seemingly popular opinion of feeling that Rory should have been a better friend to Paris.

 

This is a popular opinion? Do that many people want THAT toxic a person in their lives? She basically treated Rory like a leper on and off in high school unless she needed something and was marginally better in college. Rory basically went beyond what is socially necessary in dealing with Paris. For instance, I would have told her to "fuck off" very early on and repeatedly.

[txhorns79]

As much as I love her as a fictional character, in real life Paris would be an absolute nightmare to deal with.

 

Paris is much like Lorelai.  She's fun to watch, but would be horrible if this was real life. 

[amensisterfriend]

Actually, that description applies to the vast majority of characters on this show!

[ghoulina]

*cough*Taylor*cough*

[timimouse]

So I've recently started my 6-millionth re-watch and I just need to know how unpopular this opinion is.... I find Michel to be EXTREMELY annoying! I think at one point, it was funny to me, but now his antics just annoy me. Why on earth would they even want him at the Dragonfly? After the Independence Inn fire, I would've been so glad to be rid of him! I know we've talked about the rudeness of customer service providers on this show but I really do think he's the absolute worst!

[readster]

So I've recently started my 6-millionth re-watch and I just need to know how unpopular this opinion is.... I find Michel to be EXTREMELY annoying! I think at one point, it was funny to me, but now his antics just annoy me. Why on earth would they even want him at the Dragonfly? After the Independence Inn fire, I would've been so glad to be rid of him! I know we've talked about the rudeness of customer service providers on this show but I really do think he's the absolute worst!

 

Michel took a major turn after the fire to down right mean at times. Of course Sookie's behavior when from quirky to not only obsessive but a woman who look like she was on the verge of a nervious breakdown. Lorelai and Luke became morons and don't get me started with Emily. The writers really got to a point where they didn't know what to do with the characters or didn't believe in their talent of writing. "Oh no, if they get together, it will ruin the show." "Oh we have to keep it so the rift between Emily and Lorelai will never heal." "Of course maids would keep banging down the door to work for Emily. Her firing them from looking at her grand daughter wrong or being framed for theft wouldn't lead to agencies telling Emily to go to hell." 

[Kohola3]

*cough*Taylor*cough*

 

Lord yes, If I had my way that would be Star's Hollow's first political assassination.