One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[solotrek]

I agree, but blame the writing as much as the acting for that---AS-P had some creepy ideas re excessive anger, bitterness and jealousy being somehow 'romantic' and desirable. Almost no male character on the show was immune from it, IMO, albeit to varying degrees. It may have been more glaring with Dean IMO because he was so flat when he wasn't angry and had so few consistent, positive traits to counterbalance the stuff about him that I didn't like. 

Yeah, I do think there was a fundamental problem with Dean in that they took away all his personality and left him with "in love with Rory". He liked monster trucks and sports and worked at Doosey's, that's really all I know about Dean. But there was nothing really there. Nothing really made him tick aside from Rory. Honestly? When I recently rewatched S1, I saw a lot of potential in the first few episodes. He was a hell of a charmer, kind of funny, and was pretty sharp.

 

Now that I think about it, I think what hurt Dean was that we never saw him outside of him and Rory and their relationship. With Jess we saw his school troubles and his home life with Luke and met his annoying awful mother. With Logan we met his friends and his awful family. So we could easily explain away a lot of their issues with "oh, because his mom abandoned him" "oh, because he wants to live his life not the life his family wants him to". With Dean it was just, "Rory".

 

But I'd say the scene where Jess and Paris crashed Rory's have the house to herself laundry party and Dean comes to visit and basically realizes that he'd been lied to. It was written pretty well, what person in their right mind would enjoy being lied to in that situation especially in regards to a guy who wants to steal his girlfriend.  But JP's performance there just made it more sinister than I think it should have been. I think a better actor may have been able to pull it off to better convey the hurt+anger and not just anger+anger.

 

I mean Luke was always established to be a ranting quietly seething on the brink of a rage kind of a guy. He got arrested for attacking a car. The man had his issues but  that was him. I don't think they were trying to romanticize any of that with him.  But the scene after the Christopher phone message at the dinner with Sookie and Jackson, where Lorelei goes to his apartment. Both LG and SP's acting and the staging there was just "holy crap Lifetime original wife beating movie" uncomfortable. But what sort of saved Luke was that he was also well established to have the world's biggest heart. He kicked people out of his diner and burned food and raged and ranted, but he was also the guy who found the last dozen eggs for Kirk because he saw that Kirk was destroyed that Taylor basically disowned him. He took in his nephew, saved Lorelei's inn monetary problems, basically took over Liz's wedding prep because she was a complete flake.

 

I know this is really an UO, but I never saw Dean as being dumbed down so that Jess could be more of Rory's intellectual equal. He never seemed all that smart or interesting to me. He obviously had mechanical skills and did mention that he read a little Hunter Thompson, but when else did we see him read a book. Why wouldn't someone who worked on cars and ride a motorcycle enjoy monster truck rallies?

 

We find out he read Hunter Thompson because he had just finished the Austen that Rory lent him. Hunter Thompson is not an easy guy to read by any means. If you're reading and enjoying it, especially in high school, you're going to be reading some other things. Nothing wrong with riding a bike or enjoying monster truck rallies. But in GG world, riding a motorcycle means you're a bad boy/non-comformist (ie. Christopher being a hell raiser with his bike and then becoming a "normal person" with his car). When Jess came, he became the resident bad boy so the Dean image became a lot more clean cut.

Edited January 15, 2015 by maculae

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

It was more than a presumption that Rory went to see Jess for a little payback because she admitted that was the reason she went. Jess sent Rory an invitation because he credited her with getting him to write a book and get it published, so why wouldn't he want her to see his workplace? She went and hung around until everyone left, so I can see why he thought she might want to spend time with him alone. I did post that I thought the kiss might be a bit premature, but Rory didn't push him away until her better self admitted her love for Logan.

 

I just think Jess sort of did what Chris does in the finale which is, be blinded by what you want something to mean(Rory being there) and pick up where they left off and not digging into why its happening.I know its not a perfect analogy because Lorelai was distraught while Rory had time to seethe. I don't think its crazy to want to know a little bit about her life and what's happening and how she feels considering you haven't been close in a really long time. And if he had asked anything else it would have opened the Pandora's box. Thus some of his pain could have been avoided.

 

i don't know that I'm wording what bothers me right, so if you want to agree to disagree that is completely cool.

[amensisterfriend]

Yeah, I do think there was a fundamental problem with Dean in that they took away all his personality and left him with "in love with Rory". He liked monster trucks and sports and worked at Doosey's, that's really all I know about Dean. But there was nothing really there. Nothing really made him tick aside from Rory.....Now that I think about it, I think what hurt Dean was that we never saw him outside of him and Rory and their relationship. With Jess we saw his school troubles and his home life with Luke and met his annoying awful mother. With Logan we met his friends and his awful family. So we could easily explain away a lot of their issues with "oh, because his mom abandoned him" "oh, because he wants to live his life not the life his family wants him to". With Dean it was just, "Rory".

 

Oh my gosh, YES! This is such a great point. 

 

And casually dismissing Liz as "annoying and awful" will never fail to delight me :)  

Edited January 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

ETA: Excellent point re Luke's anger issues being a little more palatable because they were counterbalanced by such numerous examples of his loyalty, generosity and underlying kindness...though you guys know my ultimate UO is that in real life Luke's killjoy negativity and constant anger would still be virtually impossible for me to deal with irrespective of his many strengths :) 

 

With Dean it was just, "Rory".

 

Does anyone else think that this became a bit of a problem with Luke as well? I get that Liz, TJ and later April were there as (not entirely successful, IMO) attempts to give Luke storylines and development outside of Lorelai, but he still became really devoid of non-Lorelai-related traits and interests IMO. The Luke of S1 seemed to have more non-Lorelai interests and knowledge and more implied depth, which is why the Luke of the first season is definitely my favorite of the series...and I swear I'm not saying that purely because that also happens to be the only season during which I found Scott Patterson attractive :)   

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

I was actually happy when Dean and Jess were both gone when season 4 started and they introduced Marty.

 

I think for poor Marty to have been viable as a love interest they would have had to give him a passion of some sort, something, anything that lit a fire in him. She had already done the devoted but dull good guy. She was always shown to be drawn to people with passion in her life no matter if the relationship was friendship(Lane, Paris) or romantic in nature(Jess, and later Logan). 

[Aloeonatable]

 

i don't know that I'm wording what bothers me right, so if you want to agree to disagree that is completely cool.

I understand you and only partially disagree so we're cool :)

[cheezwhiz346]

So much great discussion! I really wish I could log on at work, because I still sneak and read it and then I try and remember everything I want to say. :)

 

That triangle is something I just can't sit through during re-watches. When I try I just end up hating all three at various points during a given episode. I mean, I should feel for Dean because as written he's kinda being gas-lighted. He knows what he's seeing, but he's constantly being told its nothing, all the while Jess is just goading him. But then its like, dude, just break up with her, and I agree with everyone that Jared played him in a way that's extremely hard to root for him at times. Then there is Jess who just everywhere doing that teenage bad boy bullsh*t and it just grates my nerves. But Rory is the worst because she could set them both straight right quick if she just either ripped the band-aid with Dean about liking Jess or told Jess to cut the crap or she couldn't be around him in any capacity. That storyline felt like it lasted a billion years.

 

 

ITA, especially the part about not really being able to rewatch, and it sucks, because those are some good episodes overall, but the triangle stuff makes me so mad at Rory's character. I can watch s6 Rory before I can watch triangle Rory from s2/3. I agree with everyone who says it made sense for her to act that way, but that level of obliviousness, especially when it is hurting other people, and combined with the general praise of Rory throughout those episodes, just gets on my last nerve. Again, totally in-character, but it's a character trait I kind of despise in general. And definitely agree about A-Tisket, A-Tasket. That episode, where Rory's all 'it's the rules, I have to go off with Jess' was so freakin' annoying. I can't help getting that 'but I'm Rory and I want to have my cake and eat it too and you can't say anything bad about it because I'm Rory' vibe from the whole thing.

 

You know, though the actions bothered me, I thought it was actually really in character. Up until this point, we've seen that Christopher has been an absent father. Richard had just come into her life. Her mother's dating has been kept mostly in the shadows to keep Rory out of it and then she had two messed up flings with significant male figures in Rory's life.

 

Here's Dean, the first guy to really show his affection and go out of his way to woo her. She was awkward beyond belief and didn't know how to handle it.  And then they start dating. He built her a freaken car. He went to her coming out thing and went to her school dance. He put up with her mother and would even hang out with them for movie nights. He hangs out with her and Lane. Really the two most significant people in Rory's life are in good graces with her boyfriend.  With all the reading she's done, on paper, Dean is basically the perfect boyfriend.  Here comes the bad boy who is also showing her a ton of affection. The writers robbed from Peter to pay Paul and now Jess has all the literary, movie, music knowledge and Dean is now monster truck man. How flattering it must be for 2 such (theoretically) wonderful guys to be all over her vying for her affection. From someone as awkward as Rory's point of view, how do you even deal with that? Based on her past history and her personality, it got completely messed up.

 

Very, very true. And although I always felt this behavior was in-character for Rory, I never looked at it quite the way you did (with the lack of men in her life in any capacity), and maybe keeping that in mind will help make certain s2/s3 episodes easier for me to stomach.

 

But I'd say the scene where Jess and Paris crashed Rory's have the house to herself laundry party and Dean comes to visit and basically realizes that he'd been lied to. It was written pretty well, what person in their right mind would enjoy being lied to in that situation especially in regards to a guy who wants to steal his girlfriend.  But JP's performance there just made it more sinister than I think it should have been. I think a better actor may have been able to pull it off to better convey the hurt+anger and not just anger+anger.

 

...

 

We find out he read Hunter Thompson because he had just finished the Austen that Rory lent him. Hunter Thompson is not an easy guy to read by any means. If you're reading and enjoying it, especially in high school, you're going to be reading some other things. Nothing wrong with riding a bike or enjoying monster truck rallies. But in GG world, riding a motorcycle means you're a bad boy/non-comformist (ie. Christopher being a hell raiser with his bike and then becoming a "normal person" with his car). When Jess came, he became the resident bad boy so the Dean image became a lot more clean cut.

 

Agree wholeheartedly on all of this, and that's a great point about JP playing anger but  not hurt, and that leading the audience not to sympathize with him as much as the script perhaps calls for.

[readster]

 

I mean Luke was always established to be a ranting quietly seething on the brink of a rage kind of a guy. He got arrested for attacking a car. The man had his issues but  that was him. I don't think they were trying to romanticize any of that with him.  But the scene after the Christopher phone message at the dinner with Sookie and Jackson, where Lorelei goes to his apartment. Both LG and SP's acting and the staging there was just "holy crap Lifetime original wife beating movie" uncomfortable. But what sort of saved Luke was that he was also well established to have the world's biggest heart. He kicked people out of his diner and burned food and raged and ranted, but he was also the guy who found the last dozen eggs for Kirk because he saw that Kirk was destroyed that Taylor basically disowned him. He took in his nephew, saved Lorelei's inn monetary problems, basically took over Liz's wedding prep because she was a complete flake.

 

 

 That was the thing about Luke, he did all this crap and people kept walking over him and he took it. Especially when it came to Liz, I mean wow! I know he was the older brother and stuff but it goes to a point where you want to say: "Are you ever going to grow up?" Then she has another baby 20 years later and all of a sudden, she gets it. That was what really threw me with the entire April story line. We were to believe that Anna thought Luke wouldn't be any type of good father and would have flaked on her if she would have told him she was pregnant. He then agreed with her. WTF? Despite his anger issues and hating to deal with whirlwinds that hit him out of nowhere. How could she ever think that? What I really wanted was April to yell at Anna saying: "He's a great dad!" "Why did you think he would have been horrible?" Then storm out of the room leaving Anna to realize she was the villain in all of this. GG really avoiding having characters have a true fall out of the actions. Rory, Dean, Jess, Anna, Emily, Christopher, Strobe, Taylor and especially Kirk. ASP had this in her mind that people who royally screw up get a slight yelling at and then magically fade off into the darkness with nothing outside of: "Oh, well glad that's over." I mean, there was keeping the mood light but never really any true consequences of actions. I mean Luke still treated Kirk and Taylor well after the two basically destroyed his dinner and could have killed Luke. 

[braziliangirl]

 

But in GG world, riding a motorcycle means you're a bad boy/non-comformist (ie. Christopher being a hell raiser with his bike and then becoming a "normal person" with his car). When Jess came, he became the resident bad boy so the Dean image became a lot more clean cut.

Do you guys think it's a GG thing or a "bad boy/nice guy" trope problem?

 

Cause I think that's sort of a general thing. The minute "good guy" gets the girl, BOOM, suddenly he becomes this caricature, one-sided guy. And bad boy becomes, by contrast, sparkier.

 

Also regarding Marty, thinking after all your wonderful posts, if it wasn't for him to be a love interest for Rory, I kinda wished they never made him have feelings for her. Just a friendship from both sides.

Edited January 16, 2015 by braziliangirl

[takalotti]

Also regarding Marty, thinking after all your wonderful posts, if he wasn't for him to be a love interest for Rory, I kinda wished they never made him have feelings for her. Just a friendship from both sides.

Absolutely.

The Logan storyline didn't need to have a counterpoint. This was the first time Rory was interested in a guy who wasn't (exclusively) interested in her first, and Playboy wasn't really her type before so that was new, too.

It would have been more interesting to see the "conflict" of a friend being disappointed about losing so much of Rory's time and attention to Logan. If ASP absolutely had to have triangle dynamics, let Logan raise an eyebrow about Rory having such a close guy friend (but not jealous). Heck, Logan could even smirkily ask Marty, "Really? You don't have a secret thing for her? It's okay if you do. I'd understand. Rory's amazing, so why wouldn't you?" And then Marty could list off some of Rory's most annoying qualities that keep him from liking her as more than a friend and the audience could cheer that someone finally sees Rory has flaws and that someone besides laundry-boy can avoid her siren call.

When's my next therapy appointment again?

[BC Mama]

I was glad to see some Marty recognition here. I remember really liking him  (although maybe it's because I don't really remember the end of his storyline with Lucy and that's when things went downhill, right?). I kind of wanted him and Rory dating.

Jess and Logan were too bad boyish for me. Also the impression that stuck with me was that they felt so much better than everyone else. Am I being unfair? Maybe I should rewatch the show now that I'm older.

  

It's weird that Marty was so assassinated in S7, as I think the majority of other supporting characters were far MORE likable in S7 than they had been in S5-S6, not less :) Even as someone who never cared about him one way or the other to begin with, I was sad to see him devolve into a semi-imbalanced stalker. And did we really need yet another guy who could just never, EVER get over a Gilmore Girl?! 

 

This is such a minor quibble, but I kind of hated how Rory put her legs in his lap in JACF (and maybe in another S5 episode as well, the one where she's studying in his room...?) I get that that's not quite 'leading him on', but it did feel odd given that she viewed him in a purely platonic way---it's not as if Rory was casually physically affectionate with friends like Lane or Paris.

My take on the the destruction of Marty's character was it was a means to make Rory's choice in love interest being Logan seem more clear cut to fans who were shipping Marty and Rory.

[readster]

  

My take on the the destruction of Marty's character was it was a means to make Rory's choice in love interest being Logan seem more clear cut to fans who were shipping Marty and Rory.

 

 And that was exactly it. ASP could have gone the friend route with Logan a bit jealous when nothing was there but of course, we had to get that Rory wanted Logan and guys like Marty were just in the way. Heaven forbid that Rory could have a guy friend when she barely saw Lane who was in the process of being kicked out on her own. At least I understood the roommates with Lane living with them, I mean they felt bad for her but she wasn't in school with them. She wasn't really adding anything like groceries or anything. She was just there and Rory of course just went: "Well, sorry Lane, I would keep you but I'm out numbered here." Because, forget trying to at least find another friend or that to help Lane. Instead it was off to her band members, because all of a sudden they all had to live together.

[JayInChicago]

Are we supposed to like Liz? There is nothing likable about Liz. She is, for me, and currently (things change!) the most wtf character in this show. I just don't know why she's there or what she brings to this show. To show Luke's softer, family oriented side? 

[dustylil]

I don't know if we are supposed to like Liz or not. I know I never did. Of course, I didn't care for Christopher either. But then I'm judgemental that way.

As to why she was brought it, my cynical side thought she might well  have been  an early cause  of  Luke's lack of trust of women and his need for secret-keeping.

Edited January 18, 2015 by dustylil

[amensisterfriend]

Ha---Jay, you'll see many of my rants about Liz if you look through the thread, so I won't torture you or anyone else by repeating it. Suffice it to say she's probably my very least favorite character of the entire series, and one reason why is that I actually DO think we were supposed to like her. Other awful characters were usually acknowledged by some or most as being fairly awful (Taylor, TJ, Colin, etc.), but Liz's myriad flaws, her abject failures as a mother and her insufferable selfishness were generally presented as 'cute' quirks. Toss in the fact that I can't stand the actress who plays her (and, OMG, that voice!) and you can see why my fast forward button gets a workout when she's on screen :) 

 

I do agree that she was there primarily to give Luke someone other than Lorelai to interact with and focus on once Jess left town, but I'd rather them have brought in pretty much any other type of role for that purpose. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[txhorns79]

Toss in the fact that I can't stand the actress who plays her (and, OMG, that voice!) and you can see why my fast forward button gets a workout when she's on screen

 

I felt like ASP must have really liked Kathleen Wilhoite, and that was why Liz was suddenly a recurring character who we were supposed to tolerate as yet another quirky townie. Otherwise, you would think Luke would seriously hate his sister, after his failures with Jess, compounded with what seemed like years of abject failure from Liz. 

[JayInChicago]

I think Luke and Liz's sibling relationship reminds me a lot of Roseanne and Jackie's from Roseanne's sitcom. Jackie was kind of a screw up, especially at the beginning, and it was built into the lore of the show that Roseanne had cleaned up some of Jackie's messes. One big difference is Jackie in the golden years of the show never was a bad parent, and she remained a sympathetic character til close to the end. Liz was never sympathetic, to me, because she was introduced as such an awful parent. *Maybe* she and TJ could have redeemed themselves, but even after Doula's birth they were depicted as extremely self centered, irresponsible, and similar.  anyway, i'm just over Liz. I'm sure K Wilhoite is a very nice person, but sideeyes to ASP.

[dustylil]

I  confess to being  sufficiently irrational on the subject of Liz and TJ that I have decided to forget the wonderful work Michael DeLuise did as Andy Jr. on NYPD Blue.

[Taryn74]

LOL I'm the one with the truly unpopular opinion that Liz was actually a good parent.  ;)

[txhorns79]

LOL I'm the one with the truly unpopular opinion that Liz was actually a good parent.

 

I would say she's a "good" parent in the sense that she eventually recognized she could not be the parent her son needed, and took steps, however late, to set him on a better path than he would have had if he remained with her. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by txhorns79

[Luciano]

After the first rewatch, Liz and TJ (and Anna and most of April) no longer existed in my Gilmore Girls. Bless that FF button.

[Tangerine]

I liked Liz just fine, but the combination of her and TJ was way too much at one time. They really needed to be toned down a bit. I kind of enjoyed that Liz was this sunny, over the top personality contrasted with Luke's grumpy demeanour. But it was waaaaayyyyy too kooky. We get it, show. These guys are quirky and fun.

[readster]

I liked Liz just fine, but the combination of her and TJ was way too much at one time. They really needed to be toned down a bit. I kind of enjoyed that Liz was this sunny, over the top personality contrasted with Luke's grumpy demeanour. But it was waaaaayyyyy too kooky. We get it, show. These guys are quirky and fun.

 

 That was exactly it and in a way it was suppose to show us why Jess was screwed up, not because his dad ran out of them but because Liz was such a flake but then she gets married to TJ has another kid and BAM! Mother of the year and suddenly Jess and her are on great speaking terms again. Whatever.

[Madame Helvetica]

This post is CHOCK FULL of unpopular opinions! I'm doing a re-watch of the show thanks to Netflix, and maybe it's because I'm watching them back-to-back in quick succession, but I never really realized how big of an asshole Lorelai is. When I first watched the show as a teen then college student, I thought she was a pretty cool mom and funny. Now as 31-year-old mom, I just can't handle her. Count me as firmly on Emily's side in most cases. Ya know wanna know why your relationship with your parents always sucks and never gets any better, Lorelai? It's because you're self-centered, sanctimonious ass hat who doesn't think how your actions affect others. Currently watching Season 3, and I want to throw dinner rolls at the TV - Lorelai REALLY DIDN'T KNOW  that you're supposed to apply to more than one school? I just can't even with her immaturity.  I mean, JUST ANSWER ONE FUCKING QUESTION DIRECTLY! It doesn't all have to be quirky and a rabbit trail into the inner workings of her stunted thought process. 

 

Also, I like Chris instead of Luke. Granted, I haven't really gotten to the later seasons when they get married, but I remember watching them the first time around thinking that Luke should just go off with April and find someone else who digs the lumbersexual look, and Chris should be the end game. But, actually, now that I'm thinking about it...maybe Luke deserves Lorelai because she's so awful. And he's awful. And they can be awful together. 

 

Additionally, I can't stand Jess. I'm all for the mysterious loner dude archetype, but Jess is more rude and ridiculous rather rough-around-the-edges mysterious. I'm actually really looking forward to Logan being back on my screen. 

 

Overall, I'm just really surprised how much this show is making my blood pressure rise with my disappointment at Lorelai and  pretty much everything that comes out of her mouth. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by Madame Helvetica

[txhorns79]

I mean, JUST ANSWER ONE FUCKING QUESTION DIRECTLY! It doesn't all have to be quirky and a rabbit trail into the inner workings of her stunted thought process.

 

You are my new friend.  However, I will say the episodes would probably only be about 15 minutes long if Lorelai was forced to respond to people like a normal human instead of an insane quirk-machine. 

[readster]

The problem watching now years later is that both Lorelai and Emily were very clueless when it came to things. You add in Lorelai not understanding how applying for college or how to handle money works. Emily thinking she could just swoop in do a favor for someone and then expect to get something out of it. Or thinking that you are rich and a DAR member means that the world revolves around you. to be truthful, the entire Gilmore and Danes clan were very awful together and then add in Logan's family and majority of the Stars Hollow people and these were some very horrible people. I really would never want to meet or have very little contact with and only head over to the town for their summer and winter festival events because those were fun and normal small town stuff. However, when you go into Taylor and Kirk's craziness. Richard and Emily's naiveness and view of the world and then add in Lorelai's stupid moves that any logical person would think through. Or the fact that Luke jumped in to save everyone and everyone then turned around and treated him like crap. Plus, add in Christopher with everyone saying it was everyone else's fault his life was off track for so long. These were not 3D characters they had very annoying and self-centered lifestyles.

[solotrek]

but I never really realized how big of an asshole Lorelai is. When I first watched the show as a teen then college student, I thought she was a pretty cool mom and funny. Now as 31-year-old mom, I just can't handle her.

 

Yeah, I think this group, my recent rewatch, and getting married really didn't help Lorelei. Just watching season 6 now, and I can't help but be annoyed with Lorelei bitching about how the wedding won't happen because of the whole April thing.  Did Luke handle it poorly? Sure. But the entire first part of the season is Lorelei putting off everything about the wedding because of the Rory situation. And that definitely makes sense. Except the fact that Lorelei herself was doing nothing to help the situation. Every interaction with Rory was awkward and confrontational. Luke was insanely patient and let Lorelei handle things at her own speed, which was not handling things at all and hoping that fate would work things out.

 

And then, the moment that Lorelei decides on a date and wants it to happen, as soon as there's a hiccup and she has to wait, she flips out. Luke has just had a daughter thrown into his life, is dealing with a pretty un-balanced ex (Anna Nardini was an awful person IMO), and he's trying to be the best dad ever making up for 13 years, and Lorelei can't deal with that. Luke is already a pretty slow guy in terms of these type of things, but unlike Lorelei with the Rory situation, Luke is really trying his best.

 

And by the way, Lorelei really justified all of Luke's insecurities and jealousy over Christopher, since she slept with him the night she broke off her engagement after issuing an insane ultimatum. Come on.

[amensisterfriend]

Chris should be the end game. But, actually, now that I'm thinking about it...maybe Luke deserves Lorelai because she's so awful. And he's awful. And they can be awful together.

 

LOL! 

 

This thread is so awesome for so many reasons, not the least of which is that it reminds me I'm not alone in my GG-related opinions changing with repeated viewing and the passage of time! I think a big part of it is being influenced by some of the amazing insights and snark on this thread. Just some of the GG opinions that have changed over the past couple of years:

 

1. I used to love the generally very popular S4, and now I find myself agreeing with the minority here who find it kind of flat and meandering and lacking in that unique GG-esque charm and sparkle.

 

2. I relate to and sympathize with S5-S6 Rory more than I used to. Not A LOT more, mind you, but at least now I feel like I have a better understanding of what they were going for (however unsuccessfully!) and even see more glimpses of Original Rory in those seasons than I used to.  

 

3. In terms of pure chemistry, I still think Jess and Rory have more of it than any other couple on this show except for maybe Lorelai/Christopher (another UO, I realize!). In both cases, I think it's due a lot more to the actors than the actual writing. But, wow, you guys are so right about Jess being a surly, angry jerk who really doesn't share quite as many positive, happy memories with Rory as I had thought before leaving town.

I've defended Jess a lot, enjoy how his presence affects Luke and Rory, and certainly get how his upbringing would turn him into a distrustful and somewhat bitter teen. (The guy deserves a medal for surviving life with Liz!) He deserves definite credit for evolving throughout the series even though he got to do most of it offscreen. Plus, I love that he's NotDean :)

But as this show so often does with most of its characters, they tended to cross the line into exaGGerated awfulness to the point where some of Jess's behavior is cringe-inducing to me now. Someone once asked me a really interesting question: If Jess weren't into books, would I still like him and think he was a good match for Rory? Did that ONE facet of Jess's character make that big a difference to me? I'm still not quite sure of the answer :) 

 

4. Conversely, I like Logan and the Rory/Logan pairing far, far, FAR more than I used to. Maybe the first time i watched it I had a bias against Logan due to his upbringing (a reverse class bias of sorts---I fell into GG's 'all rich people kinda suck' trap!), his ghastly friends and the actor's tendency to smile in ways that look like smarmy smirks to me even when they're not supposed to be. Upon rewatch, though, I'm so happily surprised by how well matched Logan and Rory seem to be in so many ways. I'd even go as far to say that in many ways I even think their relationship was the healthiest of all the show's main couples, if only by default---though, granted, that's a low bar :) I think I'd rather Rory have ended the series with Logan and Lorelai ended the series single. 

 

5. I hate myself for this one, but the more I watch, the more I really enjoy large parts of S7. Kill me now! :) 

 

6. I've concluded that a full 95% of the show's fanfics write Luke and Lorelai with more of a connection, spark, compatibility and just general happiness than they actually had on screen in S5-S6. Sadly, I'm not joking. That's a testament both to how many talented writers happen to be GG fans AND how poorly that couple was (IMUO) acted, written and directed once they became romantically involved.

 

7. By the end of the series, I now kind of like Zach. I used to HATE the guy with a passion!

 

8. I kind of semi-enjoy parts of the last half of S6..or at least hate it less than I used to :)

 

9. We've chatted about this one before, but Lorelai/Emily is a fascinating dynamic in theory that now gives me a headache in reality. I love both characters and relate to so much about their relationship, but the show just threw so many of their endlessly repetitive and tiresome conflicts our way that I've grown weirdly numb to the scenes that used to affect me one way or the other.  

[txhorns79]

9. We've chatted about this one before, but Lorelai/Emily is a fascinating dynamic in theory that now gives me a headache in reality. I love both characters and relate to so much about their relationship, but the show just threw so many of their endlessly repetitive and tiresome conflicts our way that I've grown weirdly numb to the scenes that used to affect me one way or the other.

 

A thousand times yes!  It was like every time Emily and Lorelai shared a nice moment, the writers ran back to the writers' room to come up with some goofy reason as to why the relationship had to reset to where it was at the beginning of the episode.  It was like that episode with the spa.  Lorelai acts like a spoiled brat at the idea of being required to spend quality time with Emily, but once they are together and Emily calls Lorelai out, things improve markedly. Then Emily has her scandalous dance with a man at the restaurant, acts as though Lorelai made a sex tape of Emily and the guy, then they fall out again.  Finally, they make up and bond a little over stealing robes.  The next episode, it's like nothing happened. 

[amensisterfriend]

Heh---I realized I might have been incorrect in noting that I "love" both Emily and Lorelai. I find them both memorable, vividly drawn, vibrant characters and love and even admire certain things about them, but both characters also drive me batty with great frequency :) As others have been noting, Lorelai tends to be REALLY grating and juvenile with repeated viewings unless I'm in a certain mood...and I appear not to be in that mood nearly as often as I used to be! One of my major UOs is that Rory is the Gilmore Girl I've always loved and related to most despite being closer to (okay, older than!) Lorelai in age. I think Rory is a much better character and more of a consistent, interesting mix of strengths and flaws than she's generally given credit for. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Taryn74]

But the entire first part of the season is Lorelei putting off everything about the wedding because of the Rory situation. And that definitely makes sense. Except the fact that Lorelei herself was doing nothing to help the situation. Every interaction with Rory was awkward and confrontational. Luke was insanely patient and let Lorelei handle things at her own speed, which was not handling things at all and hoping that fate would work things out.

 

 

Excellent point!!!

[readster]

 That was the problem, Lorelai was like: "Ok mom and dad you get your do over with Rory being what you wanted out of me. Have fun." Then she moves off tells Luke she wants to wait. Nothing happens between them, all of a sudden there is a moment where Lorelai tells Richard that the Hutzbergers ripped her a new one at the dinner and then Mitchum told her she wasn't perfect and he was like: "Oh... come on that never happened." Then he finds out it was true and all of a sudden Richard realizes that Rory is turning into a directionless person when that was apparent from the move in. Then Jess tells Rory she is being a moron and magically their relationship is healed. Yet, Luke has his long lost unknown daughter from  his crazy, should have been in an institution ex who believed Luke would have been a horrible father and of course, Lorelai couldn't handle that. The real problem was that Luke kept letting Anna dictate how his relationship with April should have been and Luke took her side and that was what really drove Lorelai over the edge but instead of going to Anna's door step and calling her a selfish bitch. She breaks up and goes sleep with Christopher who has no problem with that. Yeah, and people wonder why they hated the storyline and the characters so much after that? Because it was so horribly written and portrayed and it was just an excuse to: "Have Chris and Lorelai get their relationship finally because everyone but the fans of the show wanted at the time." 

[junienmomo]

I just want to quickly hug you all ((((((((those not so UO unhappy with the later seasons))))))))

Been there, still go there sometimes, still can't watch many events without becoming disgruntled.

 

What brings me down off the ledge:

• fanfiction that fixes things
• Renaming most S6 characters to Pod Lorelai, etc, to remember they are not in original character
• writing fanfiction to fix things
• the fastforward button
• >>>> MOST IMPORTANT: rewatching the first seasons until I feel happy again

 

Hi, my name is junie and I'm a (S1-3) GG addict

Edited January 27, 2015 by junienmomo

[junienmomo]

 That was exactly it and in a way it was suppose to show us why Jess was screwed up, not because his dad ran out of them but because Liz was such a flake but then she gets married to TJ has another kid and BAM! Mother of the year and suddenly Jess and her are on great speaking terms again. Whatever.

 

The better relationship between Liz and Jess is due to two things:

1. Luke's parenting of Jess (think giving him boundaries)
2. TJ's taking care of her (think cutting her off the punch)

 

That said, they are right up there with April on getting the use of my FF button.

 

Give me a Dean who reads Hunter Thompson, and a Luke who plays softball, and a Lorelai who actually feel remorse when she insults her girlfriend, and an Emily who is sad hurt, not revenge hurt when Lorelai closes her out.

Oh wait, that's season 1. Guess I'll go back and watch it again. ;)

[readster]

The better relationship between Liz and Jess is due to two things:

1. Luke's parenting of Jess (think giving him boundaries)
2. TJ's taking care of her (think cutting her off the punch)

 

That said, they are right up there with April on getting the use of my FF button.

 

Give me a Dean who reads Hunter Thompson, and a Luke who plays softball, and a Lorelai who actually feel remorse when she insults her girlfriend, and an Emily who is sad hurt, not revenge hurt when Lorelai closes her out.

Oh wait, that's season 1. Guess I'll go back and watch it again. ;)

 

 That I will agree on, despite everything, TJ was right for Liz because he basically cut her off from drinking and getting high. Yes, Luke's influence on Jess was what he needed. The problem was the way it was portrayed for two seasons on why Jess and Liz had this horrible relationship and magically off screen, she is telling him his uncle has his car locked up in his shed and he swoops in with this magical money he has. Pays Gypsy to fix his POS and drives off again. I get Jess was working with his dad and it "didn't work out" according to Liz but still. Jess went from a high school drop out to coming into Stars Hollow secretively until his car died about 10 feet from the shed. Apparently if he had no problem getting to Stars Hollow, how was he affording the repairs and gas for his car which seemed to be a lost cause and was never seen or heard from again?

[Aloeonatable]

Reading these recent UO makes me wonder why any of us really like this show. LOL 

 

The problem was the way it was portrayed for two seasons on why Jess and Liz had this horrible relationship and magically off screen, she is telling him his uncle has his car locked up in his shed and he swoops in with this magical money he has. Pays Gypsy to fix his POS and drives off again. I get Jess was working with his dad and it "didn't work out" according to Liz but still. Jess went from a high school drop out to coming into Stars Hollow secretively until his car died about 10 feet from the shed. Apparently if he had no problem getting to Stars Hollow, how was he affording the repairs and gas for his car which seemed to be a lost cause and was never seen or heard from again?

 

Just because Liz couldn't manage to keep Jess out of trouble before he left for Stars Hollow, doesn't necessarily mean they had a "horrible" relationship. Jess called his mother a whack job, but she was still his mother and she probably reached out to him often enough. As for him having money, Jess always seemed to have enough money and was shown to be a hard worker, at least at Walmart. Was it really important to the story line for us to know what happened to his car once he finally left Stars Hollow for Philadelphia? Many successful people, if you measure success by doing something you love, don't go the traditional school route. 

[BC Mama]

Junienmomo, I feel a lot of kinship with you right now.

[dustylil]

I never had a problem with Jess having enough money to get by and to get his car fixed. His lifestyle seemed about as extravagant as that of Luke. And he was well regarded by his Walmart employers. Surely he could pick up shifts in the stores of that chain as well as whatever other work he was doing.

I do respectfully take issue though with his relationship with Liz. We know she hadn't bothered to keep in touch with him when he was first living in Stars Hollow. Nor all that much afterwards. Apparently she  hadn't known that he was no longer in California  when she showed up in the fourth season. And as far as I could tell, it was out of respect for Luke that he agreed to both attend her latest wedding and walk her down the aisle. (Which I always thought was a very classy thing to do - up there with Rachel's graceful departure in Season 1 - but I digress.) It didn't appear to be out of fondness for her or any enthusiasm for his third stepfather.  Some children raise themselves. And Jess I think was one of them. Happily, he did have exposure to a few positive role models along the way.

[Taryn74]

Just because Liz couldn't manage to keep Jess out of trouble before he left for Stars Hollow, doesn't necessarily mean they had a "horrible" relationship.

 

 

Completely agree.  I still maintain that if Liz was actually a horrible mother and/or if she and Jess had a horrible relationship, Jess would have told her to go eff herself the minute she tried to put him on a bus to Stars Hollow and we never would have known he existed. 

[dustylil]

Assuming of course it was Liz's own choice to send him to Stars Hollow as opposed to it being a strong recommendation from the local constabulary/judiciary  in New York City.

Personally, I never had the sense that Jess' light-fingered ways were something he developed on the bus to Stars Hollow ;)

[JayInChicago]

Not that anyone cares, but in response to the comment about any of us liking the show anymore, I do! But I also stopped my latest rewatch of it. The next episode in my queue would be the one where Floyd and Mrs Floyd show up at the Gilmores and ruin Richard and Digger's business. What is that, tick tick boom or something?

 

anyway, i don't need to see that again. 

 

I wonder if Jimmy gave Jess money as a kind of kiss off. Take the money and leave, kid. 

[dustylil]

Readster's comments about Anna being a suitable candidate for institutionalization reminded of something that occurred to me back when we first met the ghastly Ms. Nardini.

This had absolutely nothing to do with Luke, but  I never thought Anna's views were all that unusual for the time. As a successful businesswoman, she felt she was quite capable of having and raising a child on her own and had no need of a partner.  Just a sperm donor.That a boy or girl might need or be better off with at least two parents and/or an extended family in his or her  lives was immaterial. After all, other women (widows, divorcees) had the job thrust upon and did alright. As far as Anna was concerned, she figured she knew what had to be done and had the resources to do it.

It is a cockamamie approach to parenting in my view,  but I do understand the mindset behind it.

Edited January 28, 2015 by dustylil

[junienmomo]

Not that anyone cares, but in response to the comment about any of us liking the show anymore, I do! But I also stopped my latest rewatch of it. The next episode in my queue would be the one where Floyd and Mrs Floyd show up at the Gilmores and ruin Richard and Digger's business. What is that, tick tick boom or something?

I care!

While looking for Amensisterfriend's difficult picture on the Name That Episode Game, i stumbled onto an early season 6 show. It was pretty, and as long as I remembered there were OOC issues, I was able to enjoy large parts of it. It was nice hearing the bits of normalcy in-between the pod character stuff.

And it was Tick Tick Tick Boom. I feel like someone had just read a Shakespeare tragedy before writing that episode. Or, as someone here posited, a soap opera.

[txhorns79]

And it was Tick Tick Tick Boom. I feel like someone had just read a Shakespeare tragedy before writing that episode. Or, as someone here posited, a soap opera.

 

Oh it's a total soap opera, except less subtle. 

[readster]

Oh it's a total soap opera, except less subtle. 

Completely agree, it was beyond mean or professional. It was like: "So, you hated I wanted my son to have your job and you hated me so much son that I will ruin you both." The next day: "Thanks for crawling back Richard. Now my son is out, how dare he think he could do his own business without me." Richard: "I agree Floyd." The last scene at the golf course was well acted and very cold but this episode felt so out of place. Yet it was ASP's classic view of: "Rich people suck." 

[txhorns79]

The next day: "Thanks for crawling back Richard. Now my son is out, how dare he think he could do his own business without me." Richard: "I agree Floyd." The last scene at the golf course was well acted and very cold but this episode felt so out of place.

 

It was all very silly and campy.  Of course Floyd had a private detective following around his son, and helped arrange a dinner to reveal all, because that's totally what people do in these situations.  The only thing that didn't happen was the dramatic reveal that Lorelai and Digger were actually brother and sister, separated at birth, given to an orphanage and adopted by the respective families.       

[amensisterfriend]

Oh my gosh, it's so validating that I'm not alone in my dislike of Tick Tick Tick. I actually skip both "Booms" when I rewatch :) Between the aforementioned ridiculousness re Digger and Richard (and, in typical GG fashion, it ended up going absolutely nowhere!) and the know-the-train's-about-to-crash-but-can't-hit-the-brakes buildup between Rory and Dean (the latter of whom IMO should have been completely off the show by then!), I just can't with those episodes.

 

Junie, I love that we're both seeing some good scenes and moments in even the generally dreadful S6! It helps that my expectations are rock bottom low :) My very UO re S6 is that I find the second half of that season a lot more tolerable than the first half. Pretty much everyone I know feels the opposite, but for me the titular Gilmore girls not speaking is much more damaging to the soul of the show than even the admittedly awful and frustrating nonsense with April. The rift, while actually potentially interesting, irks me even more now that we know the characters and their relationship didn't really change or grow as a result---Rory just harassed some poor guy for a job that we pretty much never heard about again, and voila, back to the status quo without any insight or reflection or alteration to the Lorelai/Rory dynamic. Well, as our Junie says, that's what fanfic is for...to fill in these gaping holes :)

I also hold the very UO of not even thinking things seemed solid between L/L before April came along. I felt like they telegraphed pretty clearly that Lorelai proposed out of sad desperation not to lose another person she loved rather than because she was truly ready to marry Luke, their post-engagement celebration was so muted and joyless, both seemed to panic whenever they had to pin down a date and start making plans, etc. I get that Lorelai didn't want to marry until Rory could be there, but it just came off like both were really unenthusiastic about their upcoming nuptials (borderline dreading it at times!) even before Luke's long lost daughter made her appearance. 

 

And, as confessed above...I don't hate A Vineryard Valentine anymore. I actually like certain scenes a lot, and there are a lot of episodes I'd be less likely to rewatch. That one might make the cut for our top 10 most unpopular opinions of all time :) 

Edited January 28, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[dustylil]

To add to the ludicrousness of Tick, Tick.., we suddenly learn that the senior Gilmores apparently are not well-to-do at all. And that Richard had risked a great deal of his family's financial security (including his pension) in setting up and running that small consulting firm with Jason. How and why, I have no idea.

[amensisterfriend]

Wait, dusty, are you implying that this show wasn't always wholly consistent and realistic when it came to depicting matters of finance?! ;)  

[txhorns79]

Wait, dusty, are you implying that this show wasn't always wholly consistent and realistic when it came to depicting matters of finance?!

 

I think it's more that there seems to be a mistaken belief that conflates overall wealth with having lots of easily accessible cash.  For example, I could own several properties worth millions, but I may only have a few hundred thousand in cash.  If I blow through the cash, even though I still am a "millionaire" in terms of my assets, I would be in big trouble because I can't easily access the value of the non-liquid assets.