One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[amensisterfriend]

That's not it for me, tx----I think the depiction of financial status was amazingly inconsistent overall and every bit as much for the allegedly "middle class" Lorelai and Rory as for Emily and Richard. 

[txhorns79]

That's not it for me, tx----I think the depiction of financial status was amazingly inconsistent overall and every bit as much for the allegedly "middle class" Lorelai and Rory as for Emily and Richard.

 

Fair enough.  I would agree that Lorelai and Rory's financial picture see-sawed wildly during the course of the series, and their lifestyle never seemed to match up to their financial situation. 

[dustylil]

amen, no, I was just suggesting they were even crazier than usual on the subject of money and finances. For a little while in that episode Richard was beginning to  remind me of Willy Loman -  not something I ever expected from the series or that character ;)

[JayInChicago]

I have recently thought about how remarkably unstable Richard actually is as a character. He has periodic depressions. He goes into basically a disassociative state when his mother dies because he spoke a cruel word to her--and thus cannot do anything for the funeral but dress and eventually gets it together at the funeral. He apparently forgets his grown ass daughter has her own job and can't be his secretary when he first starts his business. He gambles big on the partnership with Jason--largely fueled by his animus towards Floyd. He has secret meetings with his old fiancee, the magnificently named Pennilynn Lott. He rear-ends his estranged wife when he realizes she has started to date. He disrupts a court room scene featuring the sentencing of his only granddaughter, the felon, to intimidate and threaten his friend the lawyer representing his felon granddaughter. He thunders at a titan of business in a men's bathroom because he was mean to his felon granddaughter. He doesn't tell his own wife he quit his long time job, only to have it come out at an event his only child is throwing. He interrupts his granddaughter's cotillion (yes, a bit of a farce of an event, but still) because he's having work problems.  

 

(hee, i was having fun calling Rory "felon granddaughter, could you tell??)

 

The more soapy aspects of the show don't really appeal to me anymore. 

I do explain away a lot of the shows inconsistencies because I believe the bones of the show tend to be pretty solid, and a lot of the characters are extremely memorable.  And honestly, i kind of want Lorelai to be my own mother. My own mother, may she RIP, was not all that much fun.

 

I really expected *something* when Lorelai and Rory reconciled. I mean, I guess they talked about it for a minute, and rory did her "mom, i was such an idiot!" and and Lor did her "kid, it's very much ok" thing, but. eh.

[txhorns79]

I have recently thought about how remarkably unstable Richard actually is as a character.

 

Ha!  You've now completely ruined my re-watches!  I will defend Richard a little bit in terms of his interactions with Lorelai when she was helping him set up his office.  I think in his delusional mind, he honestly believed that he and Lorelai were getting along so well that she would want to keep working for him.  When Lorelai made clear that was not the case, it kind of shattered his fairy tale, and left him cold and grumpy.   

[dustylil]

JayInChicago and not to forget Richard's performance at Chilton when Rory's business project didn't take first prize. Or his conduct towards Dean when he had the temerity to be an average teenage boy when he was a guest in the senior Gilmore home.

Perhaps we should be grateful that ASP decided to go against the calm, buttoned-down WASP stereotype when she created and developed the character of Richard?

[txhorns79]

Or his conduct towards Dean when he had the temerity to be an average teenage boy when he was a guest in the senior Gilmore home.

 

Didn't Lorelai say that actually had nothing to do with Dean, and was really all about Lorelai and Christopher?  I think that was even specifically noted, perhaps more than once, in the episode. 

[solotrek]

Actually, CMM left the show before the introduction of Jess. That possible love triangle ended at the end of season 1. If CMM had stayed, as recurring per his contract, who knows where his storyline would have gone.

 

I kept forgetting to check but it was always in the back of my head. CMM left season 2 episode 9, Run Away Little Boy. Jess was introduced season 2 episode 5 Nick & Nora/Sid & Nancy. There was definitely a brief overlap of love triangle stuff. Sorry for the way delayed post even though I've posted since.

[Aloeonatable]

I think CMM's appearance in season 2 was to give his character a special good-bye. Tristan had many fans, so it wasn't surprising that he would get a proper sendoff. He was a guest star in RALB, having not been in any of the previous episodes in season 2. In essence, he had already left the show. 

[solotrek]

I think CMM's appearance in season 2 was to give his character a special good-bye. Tristan had many fans, so it wasn't surprising that he would get a proper sendoff. He was a guest star in RALB, having not been in any of the previous episodes in season 2. In essence, he had already left the show.

 

No I get that. All I'm saying is that they had Dean act like a superprotective jealous boyfriend between Rory and another guy within too few episodes (ie. Dean having a pissing contest in S2e9 with Tristan and then having another one with Jess in S2e10). I just remembered during my rewatch of S2 going "wow, 3 guys attractive to Rory at once? Don't remember this from before." I think my brain always differentiated things and had Tristan leaving way before Jess showed up.

[readster]

Didn't Lorelai say that actually had nothing to do with Dean, and was really all about Lorelai and Christopher?  I think that was even specifically noted, perhaps more than once, in the episode. 

 

 Half the time I think Lorelai thought there was always a catch to Richard and Emily's behavior on things like this. I just chalk it up to they never believed anyone outside of a "good gene" family was right for any of their family. Let's face it, the entire "happy little family" with Lorelai, Christopher and Rory went out the door at the end of season two when Christopher knocked up his ex-girlfriend. It then became about: "These men are not good enough for our girls." Of course Jason, who was from everything that Emily wanted was cast out because how dare he secretly date Richard's daughter and be his business partner. Of course Jason said it the worse: "It'll make your parents mad." Lorelai: *giggles*. Yet, until Floyd exposed his grand investigation it made them mad for other reasons. Times Lorelai was still acting like her stupid 16  year old self and doing things to piss off her parents because she could.

[dustylil]

There may indeed have been a catch to the behaviour of Richard and Emily. That doesn't make it any less bizarre  to those on the receiving end of it - be it Dean, the Headmaster, the Debutante Ball attendees, the felonious granddaughter's lawyer,  Mitchum, etc. (for Richard). Then there was  another set of recipients of Emily's acidic tongue lashings.

 

Actually, to be fair, Emily disliked Jason long before she learned he was dating Lorelai.

[scarynikki12]

I think that part of Richard's reaction could be chalked up to an internal freak out that Rory may be repeating Lorelai's teenage mistakes but I also think that Dean being a Stars Hollow peer rather than from a Hartford upper class family played a more prominent role.  If Rory had brought Tristan to dinner I think Richard would have been nothing but gracious, engaging him in conversation, avoiding any topics that could result in an uncomfortable situation, and kept any internal turmoil from coming out.  After all, Tristan was a DuGrey and Richard knew and respected his grandfather.  Dean could not say the same thing so Richard felt safe berating him.  Even Lorelai didn't seem to pick up on Richard reacting to Dean not being a Hartford peer and Rory had forgiven him the next episode so there was barely any fallout to his behavior.

[dustylil]

With respect scarynikki, was there ever any fallout from the temper tantrums of the senior Gilmores? Obviously nothing of significance would ever come of Richard's treatment of Dean.  But his comments to the Headmaster or to Mitchum? Or Emily's scalding remarks to Shira?

I would fantasize on occasion that the pair would be expelled from some of their high society organizations, having been told that they simply weren't that important for people to continue to put up with their ongoing bad behaviour.

[txhorns79]

Even Lorelai didn't seem to pick up on Richard reacting to Dean not being a Hartford peer and Rory had forgiven him the next episode so there was barely any fallout to his behavior.

 

I don't know.  I think Richard would probably have reacted the way he did to any guy Rory wanted to bring to FND, if the underlying idea is he is worried about Rory repeating Lorelai's mistakes.  I viewed it as PTSD. 

[scarynikki12]

was there ever any fallout from the temper tantrums of the senior Gilmores?

 

I wish!  You're right, though, that they could be as nasty as they wanted and were rarely held accountable.  A major reason for this is Lorelai, actually, who continually downplayed their behavior when it affected Rory because she wanted them to maintain their generally great relationship.  With regard to Richard's treatment of Dean, I so wish that Lorelai had waited a day before she started excusing his actions (even if she was right).  I'd much rather have seen Rory go to bed to sleep off her anger, Emily force Richard to apologize the next day, Rory tell Lorelai about it and that she's unsure if she should forgive him right away and THEN Lorelai break down his behavior.  It's the same as the season 3 blow up at Christopher when Rory was justifiably mad and Lorelai almost instantly starts talking her into putting aside her anger and forgiving him.  Of course Rory wouldn't permanently be angry and the relationships would continue but she at least deserved to get through those emotions on her own terms even if they only lasted a day. 

 

Also, I finally figured out why season 1 is my favorite: the pop culture references, the quips, and the fast talking are far more tolerable.  In the later seasons all of that felt like they were there just because (season 4 to name one particular offender).  In the first season it felt far more natural when someone referenced pop culture, Lorelai made a quip, and the talking wasn't nearly as fast.  Also, and this is definitely an UO, I think that Lorelai was far more mature in season 1 than in the later years.  She wasn't perfect or anything but I felt that she was a complete person with faults that were recognized and needed to be worked on while the later seasons make me think I'm supposed to see her as this perfect being who never makes any serious mistakes.  Even in season 2 I feel that the show started moving away from writing her as a person and started focusing on Lorelai the Fast Talking Pop Culture Quipper that she became. 

[JayInChicago]

 

I would fantasize on occasion that the pair would be expelled from some of their high society organizations, having been told that they simply weren't that important for people to continue to put up with their ongoing bad behaviour.

 

 

I AM DYING.

[readster]

With respect scarynikki, was there ever any fallout from the temper tantrums of the senior Gilmores? Obviously nothing of significance would ever come of Richard's treatment of Dean.  But his comments to the Headmaster or to Mitchum? Or Emily's scalding remarks to Shira?

I would fantasize on occasion that the pair would be expelled from some of their high society organizations, having been told that they simply weren't that important for people to continue to put up with their ongoing bad behaviour.

 

 

 Fallouts never really happened with most of anyone in the GG world. In fact, the only character I really felt ever had fallout from any actions was Lane. I mean, her mom kicks her out of the house due to find all the music and stuff she hates. As a result, she doesn't go to college or even community college. Moves in with her bandmates, gets in a relationship with one of them. Gets married, has a bad honeymoon, yet gets knocked up with twins and then the two of them go: "Well, we're parents now, guess we need to really start figuring things out." It was very heavy handed but really, it goes back to many times with Taylor and Kirk, majority of the time the stuff they did should have gotten out of good graces with anyone. I still don't forgive the writers or anything for the entire stupid Stop Light camera. First of all, town workers would not install that kind of device. Second it would have been tested for flashes long before Kirk even drove through the light and was blinded. Third it was stated by several people even at the town meeting of why they really needed it. Then when Luke yelled at Taylor and told him how much he was an idiot and he did everything just because he could and forget anyone who didn't agree with him. In fact, half the time the town agreed with Taylor was just to shut him up about things and they admitted it. Yet, over the course of the series outside Jackson unseating him for a whopping 2 episodes. They kept letting him do this stupid stuff. In my own Fan Fic where I had it where Taylor couldn't get anyone to agree with him on creating a new lighting system for his Soda shop and Kirk ends up being a good little Yes Man and agrees to set up the lighting system for the Ice Cream and Soda Shop with no one knowing and he ends up burning the entire place down to the ground and Taylor discovers his insurance forms were misfiled and he loses everything. He tries to get a fundraiser in order but no one comes to the meeting because they think it was Taylor not Kirk who decided to do the  stupid lighting system when no one agreed with it and the mayor kicks Taylor out of office as Select Man. Taylor then goes to Luke and admits he has no life because he has nothing else better to do and he enjoyed getting his own way on everything and now he's nobody. 

  Fallout was never in ASP mind because she was more about: "Tell don't show" or "Forget it like it never happened." 

[solotrek]

Dean had to deal with the fall out of his relationship with Rory. He ended up being a bitter divorced college drop-out working minimum wage jobs.

 

Can I just state that I have the UO that early season Rory was basically just as whiny and entitled as later season Rory? Or just as level headed and sane depending on how you look at it. I thought she was fundamentally unchanged.

 

Later season Rory's problems were on a larger scale because problems we  have when we're older tend to be larger than our teenage problems (if you live in a bubble like Rory did). However, it's not a hard leap for me to see the girl who ended up arguing with her mom and running off to her grandparents after the dumb Max fight to be the same girl who ran off to live with the grandparents after the boat stealing Yale drop out fight. Or the girl who basically strung guys along being the same person who tried justifying sleeping with a married guy. Or the girl whose mom told her she could leave Chilton after one D and one test flip out being the same girl who would have a panic fest after Mitchum told her she didn't have it.

Edited January 29, 2015 by maculae

[amensisterfriend]

Richard was way out of line with Dean, no question, but my UO here is that I nearly always found Dean kind of rude and sullen around adults. I'm sure a lot of that is less about the writing than about JP's tendency to frown and pout and look perpetually annoyed even when he wasn't supposed to be, as we've chatted about here. There was supposed to be this contrast between Dean as the polite, nice boyfriend whom adults would approve of and ill-mannered, 'rebel' Jess whom they wouldn't, but I actually almost never found Dean pleasant or even especially courteous around adults. Even in Kiss and Tell, I remember thinking he seemed kind of presumptuous. And don't get me started on his behavior in A-T, A-T, storming up to Lorelai and interrupting her conversation with another adult so that he could rant to her about her own daughter. 

 

Wow, you guys compiled pretty ample and compelling proof of Richard's instability!  I'm used to thinking of him as the "calm" one as compared to his more snappy and shrewish wife, but now I'm forced to revise that :) 

Edited January 29, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Madame Helvetica]

One of my major UOs is that Rory is the Gilmore Girl I've always loved and related to most despite being closer to (okay, older than!) Lorelai in age. I think Rory is a much better character and more of a consistent, interesting mix of strengths and flaws than she's generally given credit for.

 

 

I completely agree! Rory was pretty much the most mature Gilmore, but still had some fuck ups that she didn't handle well that I thought were true to her character. When everyone (like an entire town!) tells you that you are a special snowflake, you start to believe. She never had to develop coping skills for when she screwed up or when someone tells her that she's not entitled to a career just because she says that's what she wants to do. There has be work done. So Rory going off the rails doesn't bother me as much as none of the elder Gilmores sitting down with her and laying it out that shit happens, people say things and sometimes you need to buck up. I think Emily and Richard were just glad to feel useful and needed (because let's face it, Lorelai basically always told them how unnecessary they were to her and her life in all aspects and was constantly antagonizing them) and that overshadowed the root cause of Rory's about face when she left Yale. 

 

In regard to the post that had said that Lorelai was always making excuses to Rory so she'll quickly forgive her grandparents or Christopher, I actually don't see it that way. I just re-watched the Season 3 penultimate episode after Lorelai had paid back the Chilton money and called off Friday night dinners. She had gone to the senior Gilmores who were with the crazy clothing lady. Emily is still pissed/hurt that FND have been cancelled and is acting childish, granted. However, instead of being an adult and asking/telling her mom that she would like to stay and have dinner with them, she just pushes Emily's buttons and gets into right in front of Rory and storms out. Then, of course, Rory follows her mom and takes up her cause/case to be upset with her grandmother and Lorelai just seems to be ok with it. Lorelai talks about Rory maintaining good relations with her grandparents, but she is constantly telling Rory how awful they are, in an almost "you can like them, but here's why they are they worst rich parents in the world!" kind of way. 

 

Same with Christopher. And on this re-watch, I have more questions about Rory's early years, because it seems like Chris wanted to be involved in Rory's life but it was Lorelai who kept everyone away. Not that Chris should have fought more if he wanted to be involved in his daughters life, but with what's been discussed, it seems like Lorerlai's the reason he was kept at a distance. Which is just an asshat thing to do. Maybe I missed some crucial dialogue that counters this? 

[solotrek]

Same with Christopher. And on this re-watch, I have more questions about Rory's early years, because it seems like Chris wanted to be involved in Rory's life but it was Lorelai who kept everyone away. Not that Chris should have fought more if he wanted to be involved in his daughters life, but with what's been discussed, it seems like Lorerlai's the reason he was kept at a distance. Which is just an asshat thing to do. Maybe I missed some crucial dialogue that counters this?

 

I kind of got the opposite impression. There seemed to be a lot of conversations about how Christopher moved around a lot, and would miss phone calls or crucial days (birthdays, holidays) and also how Lorelai had always welcomed Chris. And it seemed like the weekly phone calls didn't start until Christopher settled down and bought his car.

 

LORELAI: Okay, you need to leave, right now.

CHRISTOPHER: This isn’t right. She needs her father.

LORELAI: I know she needs her father, I’ve been telling her she needs her father! But she feels like her father bailed on her and she’s mad and hurt, and I can’t change that in three minutes!

 

Though the last part of Lorelai's dialogue is talking about what's happening with Sherry, I always felt the first part was pretty indicative of how absent he was.

 

And after Gigi, there's a lot of conversation between Lorelai and Chris about how he wasn't around for Rory with a lot of regret from Christopher.

[txhorns79]

She never had to develop coping skills for when she screwed up or when someone tells her that she's not entitled to a career just because she says that's what she wants to do. There has be work done.

 

I would actually disagree with that.  During her first months at Chilton, she appeared to be very overwhelmed by the workload to the point where she had that mini-breakdown after Max told her she couldn't take her test when she was late to class.  However, she did eventually get herself together and excelled at that school.

 

 

Not that Chris should have fought more if he wanted to be involved in his daughters life, but with what's been discussed, it seems like Lorerlai's the reason he was kept at a distance. Which is just an asshat thing to do. Maybe I missed some crucial dialogue that counters this?

 

I think Lorelai essentially did what she wanted with regards to Rory, and counted on the idea that Chris was too checked out or weak to protest.     

[amensisterfriend]

Same with Christopher. And on this re-watch, I have more questions about Rory's early years, because it seems like Chris wanted to be involved in Rory's life but it was Lorelai who kept everyone away. Not that Chris should have fought more if he wanted to be involved in his daughters life, but with what's been discussed, it seems like Lorerlai's the reason he was kept at a distance. Which is just an asshat thing to do. Maybe I missed some crucial dialogue that counters this

 

I'm definitely not trying to stir up an old and sometimes contentious debate, but this nicely sums up why I hold the very (very, very, very!) UO of not thinking Christopher is the deplorable 'deadbeat dad' he's often labeled as. Don't get me wrong---he's a deeply flawed man who is quite obviously not in the running for Father of the Year :)

 

But the show was just so wildly inconsistent about the extent to which he wanted to be, tried to be and actually was involved in Rory's life that it's hard for me to muster up as much vitriol towards him on that score, especially when I've known a couple of true deadbeat dads----fathers who had NO involvement in their kids' lives and offered literally zero financial or emotional support of any kind. I get the tendency to vilify Christopher, but IMO he's just not in that category.

 

The writing was just ridiculously whiplash-inducing in this area, though, so I totally understand defending Christopher, loathing him and everything in between! One episode they're reminding us that Christopher never misses his weekly scheduled phone call, and the next they're mumbling vaguely about how it's been awhile since they've heard from him. One episode they're making it seem like Christopher scampered away from all Rory-related responsibilities, and the next they're hammering us over our collective heads with the fact that Christopher tried to help raise Rory but Lorelai sent him on his merry way because she wanted, for both admirable reasons and otherwise, to raise Rory independently and as she wished.  

[solotrek]

One episode they're reminding us that Christopher never misses his weekly scheduled phone call, and the next they're mumbling vaguely about how it's been awhile since they've heard from him.

 

Never misses his weekly phone call Christopher seemed to be post-new car/Sherry Christopher. Any "it's been awhile since they've heard from him" conversations during that time seemed to be after any sort of awkward Lorelai/Christopher just slept together/got in a fight situation. Which really happened a lot to them. Motorcycle Christopher seemed to have his issues.

[Taryn74]

it seems like Chris wanted to be involved in Rory's life but it was Lorelai who kept everyone away.

 

 

I agree, although it is a VERY unpopular opinion LOL.

 

I'll even go one further.  It's a pretty common complaint that Christopher only seems to show up and want to be a part of Rory's life when he's trying to get into Lorelai's pants, but you know what?  That's exactly the behavior Lorelai encourages.  I present my case --

 

TDDR/CR - Chris shows up out of the blue, Lorelai sleeps with him and then tells him they can't be in a real relationship because he doesn't have his act together.  She gives lip service to wanting him in Rory's life more, but her actions scream "It's me and her and you're not really welcome here."

 

RLOTWN - Lorelai calls Chris during her bachelorette party, all but asking him to talk her out of getting married to Max.  Chris did not yet know that she was even getting married, or that HIS DAUGHTER would have a step-father in a few days.

 

PLG - Chris comes to present Rory at her debutante ball and Lorelai, excited that he has a job and a Volvo, dials the flirting WAY up, initiates a kiss and asks him to stay the night, then gives him the cold shoulder when she realizes he has a girlfriend (even though he was supposed to be there FOR RORY and not Lorelai).

 

Bracebridge Dinner - Chris wants Rory to come spend a few days of her Christmas break with him, Lorelai doesn't even mention it to Rory until she's forced to and acts like a childish brat about Rory wanting to GO SPEND TIME WITH HER FATHER.

 

ISHBL - Lorelai is excited that Chris is coming to see Rory's debate but again gets upset when she realizes that he brought his girlfriend (again making his visit all about LORELAI rather than Rory).

 

TMT - calls Chris after Rory has an accident.  Since he came alone this time (LOL) she treats him well and they all go around and have a good time together.

 

ICGS - Chris comes to be there when Rory has her cast removed.  He finds out she has the class elections coming up and offers to come back by for a pre-election dinner.  Lorelai asks about Sherry (again making it all about LORELAI) and when she finds out they've broken up, is very gloaty and sleeps with Chris, even goes so far as to tell her parents that they are back together for good.  This all goes to hell, of course, when Chris finds out Sherry is pregnant.

 

Haunted Leg - this is the big one.  People refer to this episode all the time, using it as an example of Chris wanting to both be with Sherry and still somehow maintain a relationship with Lorelai on the side, but when he showed up at FND to talk to Lorelai, it was Rory not staying in touch with him he was most upset about.  And why was Rory shutting him out?  She was shutting him out because Lorelai was shutting him out.  And Lorelai was shutting him out because he had gone back to Sherry.  Rory didn't have a problem with Chris and Sherry before ICGS, but Lorelai wasn't taking Chris and Sherry's relationship seriously before ICGS either.  Rory takes her cues from her mother, she always has.

[dustylil]

Oh come now. You all surely had to expect me to ride in and comment on this topic.

maculae is right. The weekly phone calls only started with the Sherry relationship. When Lorelai was trying to reach him earlier that season about the debutante ball, they had had not talked in some time.  Indeed, he had moved to Boston without letting either Lorelai or Rory know or giving them his new phone number. During the course of that friendly, bantering conversation Lorelai described his involvement as follows -

But this is very important to your daughter and she has never asked you for anything, and although no one's keeping track, it would seem that your constant non-presence in her life and your lack of ever showing up when you say you're going to or calling when you say you're going to or basically doing anything when you say you're going to would tend to indicate that you owe her, big time.

 

Christopher didn't dispute any of this. So I have to accept this as canon with regard to his relationship with Rory during her childhood and early teenage years.

Taryn, with respect

[Taryn74]

That's the thing, though.  I'm not arguing the what, I'm arguing the why.  Christopher wasn't around much....why?  Because Lorelai didn't make a place for him there.  She paid lip service to wanting him around for Rory, but that wasn't what her behavior showed him she wanted.  Her behavior showed him she wanted him around as a romantic partner for her, and her encouraging a relationship with his daughter always took back burner to that.  Rory knew it.  That's why she went off on Christopher when she found out he'd had lunch with Lorelai in ESH.

[Madame Helvetica]

I would actually disagree with that.  During her first months at Chilton, she appeared to be very overwhelmed by the workload to the point where she had that mini-breakdown after Max told her she couldn't take her test when she was late to class.  However, she did eventually get herself together and excelled at that school.

 

Good point. I think that Rory in academics was on solid footing. What I was really referring to in regard to special snowflake status was the comment that Mitchum made to Rory about not being cut from the right cloth to be the kind of reporter she aspired to be which, in turn, caused her world to crash down around her and spiral to yacht stealing and dropping out of school. That's really where my impression of inability to take criticism and suck it up came from. She wasn't so bad in the earlier seasons. 

 

 

And why was Rory shutting him out?  She was shutting him out because Lorelai was shutting him out.  And Lorelai was shutting him out because he had gone back to Sherry.  Rory didn't have a problem with Chris and Sherry before ICGS, but Lorelai wasn't taking Chris and Sherry's relationship seriously before ICGS either.  Rory takes her cues from her mother, she always has.

Completely agree! 

 

Christopher didn't dispute any of this. So I have to accept this as canon with regard to his relationship with Rory during her childhood and early teenage years.

 

 

While the quote you posted leans toward the deadbeat dad status, I think Taryn74 laid out a pretty good argument for the inconsistent portrayal of Christopher as an absentee father vs. Lorelai keeping him at a distance and then making it all about her when he was around. 

 

Honestly, I find it fascinating how we can all watch the same scenes and come away with totally different impressions. It's kinda like when I watch the Real Housewives and think that it's pretty clear cut what happened in a scene only to read the boards and be flabbergasted at how others interpreted a scene depending on which housewife they like or despise. 

 

Because my bias leans more to the UO of Chris not being horrible and Luke being the worst (second only to Lorelai), I'm more apt to forgive his transgressions than I am Luke for hiding the whole April thing and being an all-around irritable guy who needs to turn his baseball cap forward and wear something other than flannel. Yaknowwhatimean? 

[txhorns79]

Because Lorelai didn't make a place for him there.  She paid lip service to wanting him around for Rory, but that wasn't what her behavior showed him she wanted.  Her behavior showed him she wanted him around as a romantic partner for her, and her encouraging a relationship with his daughter always took back burner to that.  Rory knew it.  That's why she went off on Christopher when she found out he'd had lunch with Lorelai in ESH.

 

Very true.  I think Lorelai would have reacted very badly if Christopher did anything that would threaten Lorelai's preferred role of sole parent to Rory.  I don't pretend that Christopher was some kind of prince.  He wasn't a good father to Rory. However, I do think the writers were never entirely sure what to do with him.  He can't be an active parent to his daughter because it undermines the premise of the series, but they clearly want to make his presence acceptable to the characters so they keep bringing him back. 

[readster]

 

Haunted Leg - this is the big one.  People refer to this episode all the time, using it as an example of Chris wanting to both be with Sherry and still somehow maintain a relationship with Lorelai on the side, but when he showed up at FND to talk to Lorelai, it was Rory not staying in touch with him he was most upset about.  And why was Rory shutting him out?  She was shutting him out because Lorelai was shutting him out.  And Lorelai was shutting him out because he had gone back to Sherry.  Rory didn't have a problem with Chris and Sherry before ICGS, but Lorelai wasn't taking Chris and Sherry's relationship seriously before ICGS either.  Rory takes her cues from her mother, she always has.

 

 

  I agree on all of this and what was said earlier. My biggest problem was that Lore and Chris were very dangerous together. It wasn't just inconsistent writing it was to make it look like that Strobe was right that Lorelai was the reason for all of Christopher's problems and why everyone supported him despite the stupid things. However, even with everything it was like Chris just needed Lorelai's excuses to not show up or miss a call, not show up and so forth. It just drives me insane because it shows that Lorelai and Christopher failed as a couple because they enabled each other's behaviors and then infected others to take their side. Hence everyone's solution was that they finally get married and be one big happy family. However, they didn't know how to be in a relationship outside of Rory of enabling each other's behavior because then they didn't have anything left. 

[Taryn74]

Oooh, that's a good point readster.  I see Straub as such a big jackass that I never really took the time to wonder if he was right.  Hmm.

[readster]

Oooh, that's a good point readster.  I see Straub as such a big jackass that I never really took the time to wonder if he was right.  Hmm.

 

 Exactly, seeing it now, I really wish someone would have told Straub off because really, he was out of line so many times and instead of taking up like Emily and Richard to get to know their granddaughter they constantly saw her as someone who should have never existed. Even worse, when Christopher and Sherry happened, never once was Georgia mentioned about them. They seem to be two people who could have cared less about their grand children in any shape or form. However, when you look at it, Lorelai enabled Christopher's behavior just like everyone else and vice versa. If they didn't write it that Sherry was the horrible parent who ran out on her daughter to make Chris look better. Chris would have never been mentioned again most likely or if Dave Sucliff's series: "I'm with Her" would have lasted more than one season. Keep in mind, the reason why Dean and Jess just magically appeared again was because their shows either never made it out of pilot episode or were cancelled right afterwards. Jared's Lone Ranger series never went past the pilot movie. His MacGuyver Jr. series never made it past shooting. The Gilmore Girls spin off series never got off the ground and the Bedford Diaries was cancelled after 9 episodes. ASP loved it when she could get her actors back for a TV and while they said it was good to earn a paycheck. Reflecting now, they all admit their stories were so cobbled together because they were around. Same happened with Marty, the actor was on Broadway and then he was free for 2 months and magically, Marty appeared in after not being heard of or talked about forever. 

  Every time ASP had someone free, she fell on old habits like with Lorelai and Christopher's behavior and so forth. I agree, that the only fall out was Dean as he became a bitter, divorced college dropout by the end but his last appearance with Luke was so out of place it made no sense. 

[Aloeonatable]

 

Jared's Lone Ranger series never went past the pilot movie.

 

I think the Lone Ranger series was to star Chad Michael Murray, not JP. 

 

 

The Gilmore Girls spin off series never got off the ground and the Bedford Diaries was cancelled after 9 episodes.

 

Bedford Diaries' cancellation had nothing to do with Milo appearing on later episodes of GG. Milo's last appearance on GG, in the latter part of season 6, aired around the same time as Bedford, if I recall. At that time, no one knew the fate of Bedford. He had also just made the pilot for Heroes where he would go if/when Bedford was cancelled. 

 

I do agree that ASP liked to cast her former stars. Nothing wrong with that if it served the story lines. 

[readster]

I think the Lone Ranger series was to star Chad Michael Murray, not JP. 

 

 

Bedford Diaries' cancellation had nothing to do with Milo appearing on later episodes of GG. Milo's last appearance on GG, in the latter part of season 6, aired around the same time as Bedford, if I recall. At that time, no one knew the fate of Bedford. He had also just made the pilot for Heroes where he would go if/when Bedford was cancelled. 

 

I do agree that ASP liked to cast her former stars. Nothing wrong with that if it served the story lines. 

 

 Very true and Milo had finished with Bedford before the filming and I agree but at times you could tell many times when they were just thrown in because they were around. For the record, Jared had also tested for the Lone Ranger but CMM won out in the end. Also, Jared had said that most likely if Supernatural wouldn't have been picked up and also been a success, he said Dean probably would have strolled back to Stars Hollow most likely. It was his opinion but at that point in time, Jared knew he was ok for an extra paycheck just in case.

[Aloeonatable]

 

For the record, Jared had also tested for the Lone Ranger

Wow, I didn't know that. I knew that CMM did the pilot for the Lone Ranger, which was shot during GG's first season. At that time, both CMM & JP were recurring guest stars on GG. Jared became a regular on GG in the second season, which made sense to me as he and Rory ended the first season as a couple.

[readster]

Wow, I didn't know that. I knew that CMM did the pilot for the Lone Ranger, which was shot during GG's first season. At that time, both CMM & JP were recurring guest stars on GG. Jared became a regular on GG in the second season, which made sense to me as he and Rory ended the first season as a couple.

 

 Right but like I said it didn't really effect Jared since CMM won the part. It was his failed MacGuyver series that was the original reason why they married him off to Lindsey in season 4. That was suppose to be his exit but then the show never happened and of course they wrote Dean back into the series. When the Gilmore spin off series never happened, Milo was written back in as well but since ASP was the creator of both shows. It wasn't that hard to bring Jess back in, even though going back for his car seemed to be a very lame reason to come back. Not to mention, Luke kind of let Liz know that the car was in bad shape when he put it in the shed to begin with. When Dave Sutcliff's series ended after the first year. ASP said she decided to snatch him back up as soon as possible to bring Christopher to "throw a wrench" in Luke and Lorelai's relationship. Her own words. Many series have brought back actors who use to be part of their series because the actor's endevors didn't pan out. Case in point with Zachary Quitno with the upcoming Heroes relaunch. However, Quitno said he felt his character had moved on and he had moved on. I have no problem with fan favorites return to series they started in. But with Dean, I could have done without that horrible scene between Luke and him about how Lorelai will go live the rich society life. In that case, it was bringing back just because they could and the actor is: "Cool, I can buy dinner with this paycheck." 

[dustylil]

Taryn, certainly Rory was OK with Christopher and Sherry before I Can't Get Started.  But it was in that particular episode that he indicated to Rory that  now he, Lorelai and Rory were going to be a family. And then when he learned of Sherry's pregnancy, he didn't have the guts to inform his daughter of what had happened and that he was going back to Sherry.

So whatever Lorelai's emotions were in Haunted Leg, I think Rory had every right to feel hurt and betrayed by her father.

[Aloeonatable]

 

When the Gilmore spin off series never happened, Milo was written back in as well but since ASP was the creator of both shows. It wasn't that hard to bring Jess back in, even though going back for his car seemed to be a very lame reason to come back. Not to mention, Luke kind of let Liz know that the car was in bad shape when he put it in the shed to begin with.

 

Milo came back as a guest star, not as a regular in season 4, for a few episodes. Jared stayed as a regular until his departure in season 5. 

 

 

 

It was his failed MacGuyver series that was the original reason why they married him off to Lindsey in season 4. That was suppose to be his exit but then the show never happened and of course they wrote Dean back into the series.

 

Ok, I'm confused. Most series finish filming in late March, early April, if not before. The decision to pick up a pilot for series is usually not announced until mid-May. Rory and Dean had the beginning of their affair at the end of season 4, so if JP wasn't going to be on GG why would the creators have season 4 end with Rory sleeping with a married Dean? How would they have handled the fallout from the affair if Jared wasn't coming back? I guess they would have come up with something. How would they have explained Dean's not being there after sleeping with Rory?

 

I actually checked IMDB to see when MacGyver was made, and it went to pilot in March of 2003 which would have been the third season of GG, not during the 4th. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Aloeonatable

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

How would they have explained Dean's not being there after sleeping with Rory?

 

They could have had Luke find out somehow the night they slept together. Next morning, there is a new sandwich on the menu called the DLT. He tells the girls its healthy so they never order it.

[readster]

 

 

Milo came back as a guest star, not as a regular in season 4, for a few episodes. Jared stayed as a regular until his departure in season 5.

QUOTE

QUOTE

It was his failed MacGuyver series that was the original reason why they married him off to Lindsey in season 4. That was suppose to be his exit but then the show never happened and of course they wrote Dean back into the series.

Ok, I'm confused. Most series finish filming in late March, early April, if not before. The decision to pick up a pilot for series is usually not announced until mid-May. Rory and Dean had the beginning of their affair at the end of season 4, so if JP wasn't going to be on GG why would the creators have season 4 end with Rory sleeping with a married Dean? How would they have handled the fallout from the affair if Jared wasn't coming back? I guess they would have come up with something. How would they have explained Dean's not being there after sleeping with Rory?

I actually checked IMDB to see when MacGyver was made, and it went to pilot in March of 2003 which would have been the third season of GG, not during the 4th.

 

 Milo came back as a guest star not as a regular. I never said he returned as a regular. He became a reoccurring guest as shown with the episodes. While the Bradford Diaries were filmed only 9 episodes he was free and why he showed up in seasons 5 and 6. As for Jared, yes the pilot was March 2003 and the reason why Dean was written to get engage to marry Lindsey was in case the series was picked up. The final episodes were filmed around the same time March-April. It was documented that Dean and Lindsey's wedding was suppose to be the exit for Dean until the series was not picked up. It was rumored to start in the Spring as a midseason show for the WB but that never happened and  they wrote Dean back into the show and was made a regular and then of course Logan came in. Dean would have possibly been in more but then Supernatural was filmed and picked up by the network. Hence why there was that scene between Dean and Luke. There might have been more later on but Jared was involved with Supernatural at that time but it is unknown. 

[Aloeonatable]

I do understand that the availability of the actors, Jared, Milo and David may have influenced some storylines, but for the most part, I don't see them as "thrown in." Bedford Diaries' pilot was made in February/March of 2005 & aired in the spring of 2006. The airing occurred during season 6 of GG. Both shows were WB shows, so Milo was able to film the two episodes he did in season 6 for ASP. I don't believe he was in any season 5 episodes. 

 

As for Jared, he did become engaged to Lindsay at the end of season 3, MacGuyver was never picked up that May, so he returned for season 4. I see what you mean. I think the Dean character had run its course by the middle of season 5, as Rory was entering the elite world of Yale, and her grandparents.

[JayInChicago]

They could have had Luke find out somehow the night they slept together. Next morning, there is a new sandwich on the menu called the DLT. He tells the girls its healthy so they never order it.

there's a little Uter in all of us .....

;)

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

there's a little Uter in all of us .....

;)

 

"In fact, you might say we just ate Uter and he's in our stomachs right now! (laughs, then realizes his faux pas) Wait. Scratch that one."

 

Man, just think if he had caught Jess and Rory actually doing something when he would check on them. The diner would have been serving "Sloppy Jess". Or if he would have got a hold of Logan when they caught him and Rory making out. The diner would have been serving "all out of Heinz so we had to use Huntz-burgers". 

[junienmomo]

Hey! Quit raggin' on Luke! (Just kidding, this is UO and you can opine any way you wish)

 

An added data point for Luke/Rory/Dean: Luke is the one who both took care of drunk Dean the night before the wedding, asked Rory not to go because Dean still had feelings for her, and didn't tell anyone about it until the Pippi rant.

 

One of my UO is that Luke isn't this awful, violent guy. Before the soap opera seasons his only truly ridiculous move was the wrestling with Dean. The Jess in the lake move wasn't over the top and was pretty much justified. The loud yelling at Jess during arguments is all too common among parents, so it wasn't over the top either. He also restrained himself the day Christopher yelled at Lorelai in the diner. 

 

Another UO, and I'm holding my nose and choking on my tongue as I type this, but ASP is probably not totally to blame for the violent horrible male characters. 

Her GG was mainly about women, e.g. Luke would have been Daisy, and who knows how little male content would have been in the show if she had sole content control from the first. I wonder how much of the violent men characterization was truly intended vs. a passive-aggressive action against TPTB.

[Tangerine]

I love Lorelai a lot still and I may even be a bit of a Lorelai apologist, but I have to agree that her behaviour with regards to Rory's relationships with her family was weirdly controlling. I think Lorelai, despite her sunny personality was probably very lonely in her youth. Her parents were distant and she probably didn't fit in with her high-society peers asides from Christopher. So when Rory came along, here was someone who she knew she'd always have. Whenever other people come in, she probably saw them as a threat to that relationship. It's totally not emotionally healthy, but I think all the Gilmores had some issues that needed addressing!

[readster]

 

Her GG was mainly about women, e.g. Luke would have been Daisy, and who knows how little male content would have been in the show if she had sole content control from the first. I wonder how much of the violent men characterization was truly intended vs. a passive-aggressive action against TPTB.

 

 

 And that is a really good point. Many shows during that time it felt like it was the show creators trying to stick it to the man in their own way. In a way I felt that was what it was with Kirk, Taylor and Jackson at times. These were male characters who did whatever they wanted or constantly had their behavior enabled by their peers. Taylor and Kirk especially it was like: "See, they do stupid crap all the time and everyone let's them." "Just like any man, they do what they want." Why I felt that Luke was so different was because he did all these incredibly nice things to everyone. His uncle's funeral, taking Jess in, trying to spare Rory's feelings. Giving Lorelai money, helping Kirk find the rotten Easter Eggs. Yet, constantly, constantly it was always: "No good deed goes unpunished." with Luke. Then they went and did the entire: "I can't handle having a unknown daughter show up in my life and let's go attack a man's car who slept with my wife I had no interest in being married or let's go punch Christopher." While Chris was warranted because that was building up since Wedding Bell Blues. Luke had more reasons to punch Taylor and Kirk for the stupidity and at times destruction of his stuff and his business. Those were people I would have filed restraining orders with.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

 

 

Hey! Quit raggin' on Luke! (Just kidding, this is UO and you can opine any way you wish)

An added data point for Luke/Rory/Dean: Luke is the one who both took care of drunk Dean the night before the wedding, asked Rory not to go because Dean still had feelings for her, and didn't tell anyone about it until the Pippi rant.

One of my UO is that Luke isn't this awful, violent guy. Before the soap opera seasons his only truly ridiculous move was the wrestling with Dean. The Jess in the lake move wasn't over the top and was pretty much justified. The loud yelling at Jess during arguments is all too common among parents, so it wasn't over the top either. He also restrained himself the day Christopher yelled at Lorelai in the diner.

 

LOL. I totally didn't mean to rag on him. It started as a joke, veered Simpsons, and then just spiraled into my love of puns. 

 

I will add though to the violent list the act of physically throwing someone out of his diner after the first break up with Lorelai.

 

Even with that point and all the others previously mentioned, I'm fond of Luke. I think one interesting thing(to me at least) about this show is they gave just about every character enough good and bad traits that I can see why a fan would love or hate them.

[txhorns79]

I think Lorelai, despite her sunny personality was probably very lonely in her youth. Her parents were distant and she probably didn't fit in with her high-society peers asides from Christopher. So when Rory came along, here was someone who she knew she'd always have. Whenever other people come in, she probably saw them as a threat to that relationship. It's totally not emotionally healthy, but I think all the Gilmores had some issues that needed addressing!

 

I never had the impression that Lorelai lacked for friends when she was younger.  I mean, I see how quickly she got all the girls in Rory's dorm together during Rory's first night, and you can tell she is someone who people want to be around.  I would agree with you about the distant relationship with her parents.

 

I am in total agreement about Lorelai wanting sole control over Rory.  I'd almost say she fostered her daughter's dependence on her to help ensure the relationship remained close. 

[readster]

I never had the impression that Lorelai lacked for friends when she was younger.  I mean, I see how quickly she got all the girls in Rory's dorm together during Rory's first night, and you can tell she is someone who people want to be around.  I would agree with you about the distant relationship with her parents.

 

I am in total agreement about Lorelai wanting sole control over Rory.  I'd almost say she fostered her daughter's dependence on her to help ensure the relationship remained close. 

 

 I'm in agreement with both. I do believe Lorelai had friends even in her high society life but I agree I think once Rory happened and she saw how much she didn't want to continue with people telling her how to live her life she decided to bolt and keep Rory for herself. She did however as said and shown several times, even on her terms left the door open for Christopher but sadly he never took it until he "had it together" 16 years later. It was his words of saying: "I guess this means we need to get married now." is what made Lorelai finally decide: "I don't want this life, this way." Hence why she left. However, the fostering of having Rory be dependant on her was the her made focus and as seen when her and Rory were having their problems in season 6 she did nothing because she didn't know what to do. Sure a break up with a boyfriend, a broken arm here but at what point did Lorelai really have Rory hate her for not understanding what she wanted? Even with Dean, she was like: "It makes Rory  happy." She didn't want to tell her she was not Ok with it but if that's what she wanted then watch how it turns out. Even with Mitchum, Shira and the Hutzburger clan. She should have told her that there are going to be people like that in life. She should have said she should have told her that a long time ago instead of: "You're perfect and always will be." Her grandparents thought the same and as I've said before and as many others have, its very sad that Richard or Emily couldn't think of once second someone would do think less of Rory and think Lorelai was drunk or something. I mean, Richard saw the high school dean tell Rory and crew their work wasn't good enough. Emily still had people think that Lorelai getting pregnant ruined her life and yet the two acted like they never heard them or that they were delusional instead of going: "You know how many people told me I couldn't? A lot, you have to smile, nod and prove them wrong and not hide."