One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Ms Blue Jay]

That actor who plays April is just fantastic.  I also loved the show "Switched at Birth" although I never kept up with it.   The fact that the actor could do what she did at that age stuns me.

 

Though if they wanted to show Luke being a father, the great character of Jess already existed.  I guess Milo had to leave the show for whatever reason?  I know they were planning that spinoff; I guess that kind of screwed the plans.

[Betweenyouandme]

I can't really think of a heart-tugging situation where Jess would have needed Luke in his life at that point like April did unless they gave him cancer or some terrible accident. Not that a 12 year old or so is as needy as someone on their death bed...just that April still needs a parent daily to oversee things and to love. Jess was a healthy adult who was doing fine. What could Jess need that Luke would really need to fight over?

It's not about showing Luke as a great father...it's that Luke still had a great want to BE a father....to a child. Not an adult or late teen.

He wanted a family. He at least got some of that by the end...since I think it was important the series ended with both GG unmarried.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Betweenyouandme

[MaiSoCalled]

I wouldn't have chosen the private room, but once he went to the trouble to getting it, she should have just gone with it.  

I felt like this was the perfect example of why Lorelai and Digger didn't quite work together. He was one of my favorite boyfriend's for her, but I completely bought them as a temporary couple. I can't see someone like Lorelai living a life of private dining rooms and separate bedrooms. Had Lorelai not spoken up about how uncomfortable she felt with the private room, I doubt the two would have had a second date. 

[dustylil]

I didn't like Jason either as a man or as a serious beau for Lorelai. He would be good in a casual relationship to be sure. He was bright, witty,  fun to be with and they "got" one another. However, beyond these surface aspects,  he seemed to me to be rather cold and self-centred.

What kind of adult refuses to attend the funeral of the parent of a business partner (to say nothing of  the deceased being his girlfriend's grandmother)? And while I fully understand his inability to sleep in the same bed with another person, who waits until he just after he has been intimate with someone to  reveal that information? An odd choice to make at a rather delicate time in a romantic involvement I always thought. Surely  his insomnia and his other little quirks could have been brought up in conversation somewhere along the way. This sleep issue was clearly not new for him - given that glorious guest room. I have commented elsewhere on his decision to humiliate his father and  go into business in direct competition with  him in the same community - for no particular reason as far as I can figure ( because  Floyd had  the temerity to give his son an excellent start in life?). And then was shocked that his father took revenge.

I can see calling on Jason for a good time. But I don't think much else could be expected from him.

[txhorns79]

What kind of adult refuses to attend the funeral of the parent of a business partner (to say nothing of  the deceased being his girlfriend's grandmother)?

 

Someone who is deeply uncomfortable with funerals?  It wasn't like Jason refused to pay his respects to Richard.  He did offers his condolences, and Richard accepted them.  I don't really see the issue, unless you are going to use the funeral as a form of score keeping.    

[amensisterfriend]

So first let me just assure you all that I totally hate myself for this one :) I just rewatched parts of A Vineyard Valentine for the first time since it aired (I swear that I'm not a masochist; I was just conducting research for what I hope will be an upcoming fanfic!), and...*deep breath*...I actually kind of liked many individual scenes. I'm not claiming I genuinely like the overall episode, exactly, but I think there are a surprising number of GG episodes that I like less. (Like most fans, I used to list this one in my bottom 2-3 episodes of the entire series!) 

 

I'll show myself the door! 

[Guest]

Re. the church and synagogue, those wouldn't be built with town money, but the parishioner money that was donated to the church. Maybe Stars Hollow just wasn't a particularly pious place?

[amensisterfriend]

I almost never enjoy town meetings. I get that they're supposed to be funny and entertaining, but it's over-the-top, grating townie overload for me. They tend to give me a headache :) Even more unpopularly, I sometimes feel a little uneasy about Lorelai and Rory's roles in those meetings---they so often seem to be there *solely* to mock in a vaguely mean-spirited, self-superior way (as opposed to their more benign mocking!), like they want credit for being a big part of their crazy community but not-so-secretly hold themselves way above it.  

[dustylil]

As to that particular church,  do we know if it was the only one  in Stars Hollow? I don't recall if that was mentioned or not. I would have thought there would have also been a Roman Catholic church in the town since that denomination has a strong presence in Connecticut.

Of course, perhaps not in ASP's Connecticut which only bears an occasional resemblance to reality :)

I never thought it was in the least unusual to have different faith communities share a building. I live in a large city and it is quite common here for two (or more) religious sects to use the same facility.  I  do agree with deaja  that those arrangements had nothing to do with the finances of the town. Although I  think the need to jointly use a building probably reflects more on the size and degree of prosperity of a congregation than on its piety.

[junienmomo]

I slog myself over here from the Bon Voyage love posts to express the UO of BV = blech.

 

Lorelai's tears in Rory's bedroom as it rains is a stellar moment in the whole series, and Luke putting the necklace in his pocket, telling us he's not done hoping yet plucks my heart strings.

 

The rest simply didn't work for me. It felt like everyone was going through the motions and like they weren't acting as a cast, more like each individual had a little showcase moment. There was no cohesiveness I could see.

What power Sean Gunn had over TPTB to get as big a part as he did is beyond me. Official SASH maker? Creepy.

 

Back to Rainbows, unicorns, clowns, little cute ... furry - OK I'm out

[readster]

I almost never enjoy town meetings. I get that they're supposed to be funny and entertaining, but it's over-the-top, grating townie overload for me. They tend to give me a headache :) Even more unpopularly, I sometimes feel a little uneasy about Lorelai and Rory's roles in those meetings---they so often seem to be there *solely* to mock in a vaguely mean-spirited, self-superior way (as opposed to their more benign mocking!), like they want credit for being a big part of their crazy community but not-so-secretly hold themselves way above it.  

 

 Half the time the town even admitted they did it to please Taylor's ego, which in my opinion really is why he did these crazy things and only Luke called him on it, ever. Gypsy even referred Taylor was Papa "Doc" Duvalier to Stars Hollow. Yet, I don't think that was really much of a good reference. 

[Guest]

Speaking of Bon Voyage, I hate the scene with Lane and Zach where she acknowledges that everyone is waiting for her to go inside so they can prepare for the party, but she doesn't care if it means other people will be up all night.  Sure, she had a right to sit there, but show a little consideration for other people.  Lane was grating by that point in the series to me though.

[txhorns79]

I almost never enjoy town meetings. I get that they're supposed to be funny and entertaining, but it's over-the-top, grating townie overload for me. They tend to give me a headache :) Even more unpopularly, I sometimes feel a little uneasy about Lorelai and Rory's roles in those meetings---they so often seem to be there *solely* to mock in a vaguely mean-spirited, self-superior way (as opposed to their more benign mocking!), like they want credit for being a big part of their crazy community but not-so-secretly hold themselves way above it.

 

In fairness, how hard it is to feel superior to someone who acts like Taylor?  Though I am totally with you regarding the townie overload.  Everyone gave a little too much into their quirky Stars Hollow-ness in those meetings.       

[braziliangirl]

I was glad to see some Marty recognition here. I remember really liking him  (although maybe it's because I don't really remember the end of his storyline with Lucy and that's when things went downhill, right?). I kind of wanted him and Rory dating.

Jess and Logan were too bad boyish for me. Also the impression that stuck with me was that they felt so much better than everyone else. Am I being unfair? Maybe I should rewatch the show now that I'm older.

[txhorns79]

Jess and Logan were too bad boyish for me. Also the impression that stuck with me was that they felt so much better than everyone else. Am I being unfair? Maybe I should rewatch the show now that I'm older.

 

Jess very much had the "too cool for school" attitude.  I think with Logan, at least as the character developed, it appeared to be more his friends who thought they were better than everyone else, than Logan himself. 

[amensisterfriend]

I did see Logan as very cocky and smug at first, but with repeated viewings I agree that a lot of that comes from 1) 'guilt by association' since we first saw him with his awful friends and 2) that we, the audience, saw Logan as the conceited, party boy cad that the rest of the outside world did before truly getting to know him as Rory eventually did, you know?! In certain ways he was actually a little insecure, and he really did grow by the end of the series IMO. I really like in Hay Bale Maze how he tells Lorelai he knew he's made major mistakes and feels awful but forces himself to seem confident rather than self-flagellate, etc. It was kind of an "ah---I totally get him better now!" moment for me with that character, and I've seen him a little differently ever since. 

 

Similarly, I felt that Jess's 'too cool for the room' detachment was to protect himself from the pain of caring and once again ending up disappointed. This was a kid raised by a really neglectful, drug using mother who sent him away, an absentee father and a string of loser stepfathers (OMG, I'm reminding myself of how much I hate Liz!), and while I'm not defending how rude and obnoxious he could be, I think he was motivated by pain rather than arrogance. 

 

And while I FULLY get why many loved Marty---in fact, on paper he might even have been the best match for Rory much as Digger was, IMUO, on paper arguably the best match for Lorelai---my UO is that I just never felt attached to him. He was sort of a boring, vaguely sulky sad sack to me. And I just didn't see Rory as genuinely excited and animated in his presence as she often was with Jess and Logan, IMO. 

 

I usually hate the "good girl/bad boy" trope and hate that the "nice guys" don't get the girls more often on TV, but for some reason I did like her with both Jess and Logan and don't have any regrets about her not dating Marty. I wish I could better explain why :) 

Edited January 13, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[moonb]

I usually hate the "good girl/bad boy" trope and hate that the "nice guys" don't get the girls more often on TV, but for some reason I did like her with both Jess and Logan and don't have any regrets about her not dating Marty. I wish I could better explain why :)

 

I think season 7 proved that Marty wasn't all that nice either. I liked him too at first, and boy can I sympathize with his unrequited crush on Rory, but I think his later appearances destroyed that. He came off as equally immature in his feelings toward both Rory and Lucy. But that's why to me GG only did the "bad romantic relationships" well  - not an unpopular opinion, though!

[takalotti]

I was glad to see some Marty recognition here. I remember really liking him (although maybe it's because I don't really remember the end of his storyline with Lucy and that's when things went downhill, right?). I kind of wanted him and Rory dating.

Jess and Logan were too bad boyish for me. Also the impression that stuck with me was that they felt so much better than everyone else. Am I being unfair? Maybe I should rewatch the show now that I'm older.

I also have the UO that I liked Marty a lot and wished he and Rory had dated. So much so that it's the basis of my main fanfic and the reason my season four GG DVDs have the following autograph:

Thanks for rooting for me! Wayne Wilcox.

But that's neither here nor there ;)

I liked that he was working class, which was more in line with Rory's upbringing. He was rather awkward, like Rory can be, but in an endearing, not painful, way. And he didn't immediately flirt with or pursue Rory the way most of the guys on the show did. They had a friendship first, and an ease around each other which was nice.

In the beginning, he was actually moderately confident. He seemed to have made more friends than Rory did, held his own with Richard, and could invite Rory to join the gang without any trouble.

Then season five happened, and this is where Marty gets to be more of a sad sack. They still have the same easy friendship, but his confidence is stripped away* when trying to make that shift from friend to boyfriend. Boy cannot assert himself for anything. Everything is passive and indirect and "Why won't she just read my mind?!" I think this is where Marty starts to divide the audience, with or without Logan as a comparison. I still liked him and understood where his timidness could come from even if I wished he'd cut it out. But I can also understand how others were just like, no.

And then he fell victim to the SirenRory*. He couldn't resist her nagging in JaCF, and he still wasn't over her TWO years later despite having no contact and managing to have some sort of dating life to the point that he made absolutely no sense*. I still refer to season 7 Marty as PodMarty because that was a clear case of body snatching IMO.

I know I'm biased and saw more potential in the early Marty than was necessarily there, but I still blame poopy writers for the * items above.

Dear lord, I'm clearly not over this. Maybe I should bring this up with my therapist.

Edited January 13, 2015 by takalotti

[amensisterfriend]

It's weird that Marty was so assassinated in S7, as I think the majority of other supporting characters were far MORE likable in S7 than they had been in S5-S6, not less :) Even as someone who never cared about him one way or the other to begin with, I was sad to see him devolve into a semi-imbalanced stalker. And did we really need yet another guy who could just never, EVER get over a Gilmore Girl?! 

 

This is such a minor quibble, but I kind of hated how Rory put her legs in his lap in JACF (and maybe in another S5 episode as well, the one where she's studying in his room...?) I get that that's not quite 'leading him on', but it did feel odd given that she viewed him in a purely platonic way---it's not as if Rory was casually physically affectionate with friends like Lane or Paris. 

[takalotti]

This is such a minor quibble, but I kind of hated how Rory put her legs in his lap in JACF (and maybe in another S5 episode as well, the one where she's studying in his room...?) I get that that's not quite 'leading him on', but it did feel odd given that she viewed him in a purely platonic way---it's not as if Rory was casually physically affectionate with friends like Lane or Paris.

You are opening dangerous doors my (sister) friend :)

I both love and hate their physicality. The episode where they're studying in his room and she falls asleep on his bed spoke volumes to me. No idea if the writers meant this, but it really showed how comfortable she was with him. A girl like Rory (meaning not careless or thoughtless) doesn't just hang out in a boy's bed AND fall asleep unless she trusts him and feels safe. That was the moment where I saw something between them being possible.

And I loved seeing it again in JaCF because it brought back that same feeling. Until Rory ruined it by pooping all over Marty once Logan showed up. Now I hate it because I know what's coming. Even worse than the whole dinner debacle was her dejected, "Oh, I can't," when Logan first invited her. Really, Rory? You couldn't cheerfully say, "Oh, thanks for inviting me, but I already have plans tonight. Have fun!"

I love Rory, but she did not merit having so many torch carrying boys.

[dustylil]

I too am among those who could not  figure out why the showrunners decided to destroy the likeable if somewhat mopey Marty in the seventh season. And to do so in a particularly ludicrous manner. To pretend that he didn't even know Rory when they lived in the same residence buildings, attended some of the same social events, and possibly even shared classes? It wouldn't have taken a killjoy like Logan to reveal their familiarity with one another. Another classmate could just as easily have mentioned their connection to Lucy in casual conversation.

takalotti, that's interesting that you describe Marty as "working class". I know that his college-years job was bartending, but were his childhood and adolescent years spent in a blue collar environment? I don't recall learning that much about his early days beyond his uncle turning out to be his father. 

[readster]

I too am among those who could not  figure out why the showrunners decided to destroy the likeable if somewhat mopey Marty in the seventh season. And to do so in a particularly ludicrous manner. To pretend that he didn't even know Rory when they lived in the same residence buildings, attended some of the same social events, and possibly even shared classes? It wouldn't have taken a killjoy like Logan to reveal their familiarity with one another. Another classmate could just as easily have mentioned their connection to Lucy in casual conversation.

takalotti, that's interesting that you describe Marty as "working class". I know that his college-years job was bartending, but were his childhood and adolescent years spent in a blue collar environment? I don't recall learning that much about his early days beyond his uncle turning out to be his father. 

 

 Wayne Wilcox was also busy on Broadway during the show too. ASP said when he was free she had to put him on the screen because "he was yummy" her words. Caused a lot of problems because there was this whole back story to Marty and when he just pop up we would get these major plot points in his life. Like finding out his real dad was in fact his uncle and the reason was because of some family issue with his mom having him. Then the grandmother died and since all people who were in on the cover up were dead and Marty was almost 20. They dropped the bombshell on him and then the entire thing with Logan and Rory and then when he shows up. It was like: "Hey remember, Marty?" "We do but we don't know what to do because Wayne is free for two weeks of filming so we'll throw him in." Like Dean's last appearance: "Jared has a new show he was cast in, so let's make him bitter and act like an ass to Luke and explain to him that Lorelei will go back to Emily and Richard's world." Because you know, why would he ever think that?

Edited January 14, 2015 by readster

[takalotti]

You're right, I don't technically know that his family is working class. That's just an assumption I made based off his bartending and the way he would snag leftovers from those gigs. I know there are white collar families whose kids would need to do the same to get through Yale, but I just jumped to the blue collar conclusion.

[txhorns79]

That's just an assumption I made based off his bartending and the way he would snag leftovers from those gigs. I know there are white collar families whose kids would need to do the same to get through Yale, but I just jumped to the blue collar conclusion.  

 

It isn't a bad assumption.  I remember an episode where Logan goes out with Marty and Rory to dinner, and Marty has to take money to cover his meal from Rory because he has barely anything in his account.  I thought we were supposed to take that moment and the fact that Marty had worked Logan's party as a big contrast in their lifestyles and backgrounds. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by txhorns79

[HouseofBeck]

As I've gotten older Lorelai's behavior has gotten alot less fun and cute to me.

I wonder if that's what it is for me, too. We started late in recording the eps through ABC to watch when we had time, and just now got through A Vineyard Valentine. I'm finding I don't remember a lot from those later seasons, but also finding that Lorelai's incessant chatter drives me nuts where I'd swear I enjoyed it, first-run. Such as when she is trying so hard to make sure Luke will have a good time when they're not even out of her driveway yet. I get her desperation; I just hate how it manifests, even though this is supposed to be typical Lorelai.

Then I feel bad when she's in her quieter, morose moments because Luke is such a pill and is blind about being a pill, and there's April, and ugh.

By contrast, I remember disliking Logan at the time, but now think he's pretty cool. What's happened to me??

[amensisterfriend]

but also finding that Lorelai's incessant chatter drives me nuts where I'd swear I enjoyed it, first-run. Such as when she is trying so hard to make sure Luke will have a good time when they're not even out of her driveway yet. I get her desperation; I just hate how it manifests, even though this is supposed to be typical Lorelai.Then I feel bad when she's in her quieter, morose moments because Luke is such a pill and is blind about being a pill, and there's April, and ugh.

By contrast, I remember disliking Logan at the time, but now think he's pretty cool. What's happened to me??

 

Ha---I so get this! Whatever's happened to you seems to have happened to me as well :) Whoever thought Logan would become a favorite of mine and that my beloved Lorelai would sometimes have me lunging for the "mute" button?! And that I would actually LIKE S7?! That's part of what's so much fun about fandom, though---seeing how your tastes change over time and with repeated rewatching :) 

[Aloeonatable]

I thought I'd never like anything about Logan, but reading everyone's recent comments and also going back and watching some of his episodes, I too have changed my mind, somewhat. I still am not a fan of some of the actor's mannerisms, but as a character, Logan worked. I loathed his friends, but we saw less of them as he and Rory grew closer.

 

As for Lorelai, she was never one of my favorite characters. She was often times annoying and because I love Jess, the fact that she hated him made me like her less. I really wish we had seen some scenes with Lorelai and Jess once he grew up. I especially wish we could have seen her reaction to learning that it was Jess who finally got Rory to return to Yale and her mom.

[solotrek]

I'm finding I don't remember a lot from those later seasons, but also finding that Lorelai's incessant chatter drives me nuts where I'd swear I enjoyed it, first-run. Such as when she is trying so hard to make sure Luke will have a good time when they're not even out of her driveway yet. I get her desperation; I just hate how it manifests, even though this is supposed to be typical Lorelai.

Then I feel bad when she's in her quieter, morose moments because Luke is such a pill and is blind about being a pill, and there's April, and ugh.

By contrast, I remember disliking Logan at the time, but now think he's pretty cool. What's happened to me??

 

This. I am also finding Lorelei a bit annoying now (though I can't count how many rewatches I've done to get to this point). Though LG was an expert at delivering the incessant chatter really quickly, I always thought that her best acting were from the times Lorelei was silent. She was great with facial expressions and giving looks that said a lot. Not just her depressed or upset moments, but also when she's amused by something.

 

I always kind of thought Logan was pretty cool. He was always the most "with it" of Rory's boyfriends, knowing exactly what he wanted and didn't want and eventually going for what would make him happy in both his professional and personal life. Even his original introduction and friendship with Rory wasn't him falling heads over heels for her which was basically what Dean and Jess were like. He had a personality that wasn't "I love Rory" and he'd call her out immediately if he didn't agree with something she did.  Yes he had a lot of privilege and wealth, but I don't think that's necessarily a reason to dislike a character.

 

Similarly, I felt that Jess's 'too cool for the room' detachment was to protect himself from the pain of caring and once again ending up disappointed.

 

I definitely for that way about Jess in regards to a lot. But in terms of being literally "too cool for school" (resulting in him failing out), "too cool for the type of music that other people listen to" (the scene with Lindsay in Keg!Max!), has nothing to do with ending up disappointed.

[amensisterfriend]

But in terms of being literally "too cool for school" (resulting in him failing out), "too cool for the type of music that other people listen to" (the scene with Lindsay in Keg!Max!), has nothing to do with ending up disappointed.

 

Very true! I'd amend my original to post to allow for those exceptions if I weren't too lazy to do so :)

 

You actually reminded me of another UO: the show's take on music in general kind of irks me. Now, I LOVE the way this show celebrates reading books of all tyes, both good and mock-worthy film and TV watching, and pop culture in general. But there really was this weirdly snotty, 'people who like mainstream, "uncool" music are the dopiest losers EVER!' bias that popped up sometimes. And not at all just from Jess, IMO, but from Lorelai, Lane, Rory, everyone in Hep Alien, etc. (The irony for me being that I think Hep Alien's music is eardrum-shatteringly awful---I would rather listen to the current pop princesses all day long than sit through a Hep Alien performance in real life!) As you pointed out, it was even used as lazy shorthand to remind us of just how sadly uncool Lindsay was. By the way, I always fanwanked that Paris and maybe even Logan had a secret fondness for hopelessly cheesy music, including boy bands...it amuses me :) 

 

All of these people melting a bit in their anti-Logan stances makes my weird little heart swell, especially since I WAS one of those anti-Logan people until recent rewatches :)  And while some of his behavior in S5 will always really bother me, the fact that he's NotDean goes a long way with me at that point in the series! 

Edited January 14, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Ms Blue Jay]

I've certainly noticed that the GGs make fun of a lot of mainstream pop culture that I really like.  I can't come up with examples right now.  It's kind of funny though.  GG is very easy to digest, mainstream pop culture in itself.

 

I remember Lorelai calling "that Cranberries song" an annoying earworm, probably referencing "Zombie".  They're my favourite band :)

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I hate that Rory seems to get all the blame with fans for the Philly incident with Jess. All he asks about her life is a vague "is everything fixed?" not if shes's ok, no questioning of how she is at all regarding what she went through, and then he leans in to kiss her. He just assumes she's there for that. He deserves some of the blame for whatever hurt he felt. He really fell down on the job being a friend there but he himself throws all the blame on her.

Edited January 14, 2015 by RoyRogersMcFreely

[cheezwhiz346]

 

All of these people melting a bit in their anti-Logan stances makes my weird little heart swell, especially since I WAS one of those anti-Logan people until recent rewatches :)  And while some of his behavior in S5 will always really bother me, the fact that he's NotDean goes a long way with me at that point in the series! 

 

I think my opinion of Logan has changed a bit for a couple of reasons, but I think it boils down to the following: It's been long enough that I have some perspective on the show, in terms of where the character of Rory went post-season 4. At the time it was happening, I was more attached to the show's characterizations/plot twists in general, and took her (in my view) lack of a sense of self personally (I have such a healthy relationship with television, I know), and that character change coincided with the arrival of Logan. In 'You Jump, I Jump, Jack' for instance, I wasn't so much pissed at Logan for his pseudo-intellectual, privileged defense of the Life and Death Brigade as I was with Rory for buying into it. Now that I have some distance, I still think it's idiotic, but it's just the both of them being young and sheltered and surrounded by wealth. Even though there is that distance, though, I still largely disagree with the direction Rory's character went in, but I'm not actively angry about it anymore.

 

This seems to be a UO with the GG fans I otherwise generally agree with: Dean from the first 3 seasons didn't bug me. I mean, I didn't think he was right for Rory, but there does seem to be quite a bit of hate for him in fandom, and I just... I think he and Rory both acted pretty dumb in that relationship. Now, post-season 3, that's another story. I really don't like where they went with his character at all. Still, if I do a full rewatch of the first 3 seasons maybe my opinion will change.

[txhorns79]

This seems to be a UO with the GG fans I otherwise generally agree with: Dean from the first 3 seasons didn't bug me. I mean, I didn't think he was right for Rory, but there does seem to be quite a bit of hate for him in fandom, and I just... I think he and Rory both acted pretty dumb in that relationship.

 

You are right in that they both acted dumb.  For me, I think the problem was with the actor during season two and three.  His way of playing "jealousy" came off as too menacing for me.  There were times when Rory seemed frightened of Dean (or at least his reaction), and that seemed fairly unhealthy for that relationship. 

[amensisterfriend]

I so often wonder whether my (admittedly irrationally strong!) dislike of Dean has more to do with how Jared Padalecki played him than the actual writing. Dean was really underwritten and poorly defined IMO, but JP didn't really help my opinion of him by seeming so dour, humorless, flat and sulky even when the scene called for him to be a bit happier to be there. And, yes, he played the anger and jealousy in a way that was borderline scary at points! I just never 'got' Rory's connection with Dean or Lorelai's with Max, though. Or Luke's with Nicole's, for that matter! Every other 'ship on the show is one I can at least understand on some level even if some didn't personally appeal to me.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Aloeonatable]

 

All he asks about her life is a vague "is everything fixed?" not if shes's ok, no questioning of how she is at all regarding what she went through, and then he leans in to kiss her. He just assumes she's there for that. He deserves some of the blame for whatever hurt he felt. He really fell down on the job being a friend there but he himself throws all the blame on her.

 

Not sure what you mean by "how she is at all regarding what she went through." If you mean the Yale drop out, I'm sure he heard through Luke that she was back at school. What was he supposed to think when she showed up all smiling and complimentary. The kiss could have been a bit premature, but she didn't push him away at first. Of course, we know she went to see Jess because she was angry with Logan and with the intent of cheating on him. She even admitted it. IMO Jess's reaction was warranted. He could have been a lot more angry, but like he said, "It is what it is, you and me." He even told her she could lie to Logan about being with him which I thought was pretty noble, though misguided. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Not sure what you mean by "how she is at all regarding what she went through." If you mean the Yale drop out, I'm sure he heard through Luke that she was back at school. What was he supposed to think when she showed up all smiling and complimentary. The kiss could have been a bit premature, but she didn't push him away at first. Of course, we know she went to see Jess because she was angry with Logan and with the intent of cheating on him. She even admitted it. IMO Jess's reaction was warranted. He could have been a lot more angry, but like he said, "It is what it is, you and me." He even told her she could lie to Logan about being with him which I thought was pretty noble, though misguided. 

 

Setting aside Rory's motive for a moment. He did send an invite and its not crazy she would go there to support a friend without romantic intentions, she was proud of him, no matter what, for what he accomplished.

I'm just saying he knew she was in a bad place emotionally last time he saw her and was in a relationship. A friend might ask a few more questions before macking on her. His "is everything fixed" is presumptuous for one, like he was just waiting for her to come running to him. Which feels dismissive of her relationship and just her feelings in general. I mean its been two years since you were together, can you ask the girl a few questions about her life before kissing her?

I'm not absolving Rory at all she was the one who went there. We presume for a little payback, but she didn't actually initiate anything so we don't know if she would have went through with it herself.

[cheezwhiz346]

I'm wondering if rewatching the early seasons will cause me to see Dean's behavior as more menacing. It's definitely possible, and I totally agree that he was underwritten (and dumbed down a bit once Jess entered the picture). I do know, for instance, that my opinion of their (first) breakup changed from the first time I saw it 'til now- he built her a car and told her he loved her after only 3 months? And then broke up with her when she didn't immediately say it back? Much less sympathy from me this time 'round. And I have more sympathy for Rory, because Lorelai liked Dean so much I feel she had some undue influence on Rory's relationship with Dean that shouldn't have been there.

 

At this point, though, I can't help but feel for Dean once Jess enters the picture, because Rory so obviously has a thing for Jess, and Jess himself spends a hell of a lot of time throwing it in Dean's face, and Rory lets him because of her own denial, etc. 

[txhorns79]

I just never 'got' Rory's connection with Dean or Lorelai's with Max, though. Or Luke's with Nicole's, for that matter!

 

I could see why Rory would like Dean, at least in the first season.  He wasn't overly aggressive with her, i.e. he seemed generally okay with taking things slow (until the "I love you" jazz started in).  He didn't appear to be more "experienced" than she was, was able to respond to her quips and he made an effort to get Lorelai's approval, which was very important to Rory. 

[Taryn74]

His way of playing "jealousy" came off as too menacing for me.  There were times when Rory seemed frightened of Dean (or at least his reaction), and that seemed fairly unhealthy for that relationship. 

 

So, so much word.  Just the other day I was reading an article someone had linked to about "controlling" relationships (vs. abusive ones) and I couldn't help but make comparisons to how Dean treated Rory pretty much the entire time they were together - S1 thru S5.  It really hit the nail on the head, so much so that it really makes you wonder about ASP and her view of relationships (since there was never any indication on the show that we were supposed to see their relationship as unhealthy).

[solotrek]

I could see why Rory would like Dean, at least in the first season.  He wasn't overly aggressive with her, i.e. he seemed generally okay with taking things slow (until the "I love you" jazz started in).

 

He was ok with taking things slow initially, even finding it kind of cute (ie. her running away after every conversation). But the "I love you" stuff happened 3 months into their relationship. Then he basically rage quit because she couldn't say it too. 3 months into their relationship. 3 months. That is not the trademarks of a guy ok with taking things slow. Heck, I don't think I was able to tell my first high school boyfriend that I loved him 3 months in and I ended up marrying him.

 

I think we saw glimpses of "angry Dean" pretty early on. He threatened to kill Tristan back in season 1 during the dance. 

 

It's definitely possible, and I totally agree that he was underwritten (and dumbed down a bit once Jess entered the picture).

 

I can't believe how much they dumbed him down and made him "uncool". He was never a genius or ambitious, but he knew literary references and movie references. Heck, he and Rory were swapping books early on. Didn't he also have a "bad boy motorcycle" at one point? By the time Jess came along, it seemed like they had made it so Dean just couldn't handle a book.

 

 

I couldn't help but make comparisons to how Dean treated Rory pretty much the entire time they were together - S1 thru S5.  It really hit the nail on the head, so much so that it really makes you wonder about ASP and her view of relationships (since there was never any indication on the show that we were supposed to see their relationship as unhealthy).

 

I think that was my issue with Rory's relationships. Dean was insanely possessive and jealous. Jess was pretty neglectful and sullen. Logan had his issues, but their "Ross-Rachel it was a break" argument aside, I didn't think they had a very unhealthy relationship.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

That triangle is something I just can't sit through during re-watches. When I try I just end up hating all three at various points during a given episode. I mean, I should feel for Dean because as written he's kinda being gas-lighted. He knows what he's seeing, but he's constantly being told its nothing, all the while Jess is just goading him. But then its like, dude, just break up with her, and I agree with everyone that Jared played him in a way that's extremely hard to root for him at times. Then there is Jess who just everywhere doing that teenage bad boy bullsh*t and it just grates my nerves. But Rory is the worst because she could set them both straight right quick if she just either ripped the band-aid with Dean about liking Jess or told Jess to cut the crap or she couldn't be around him in any capacity. That storyline felt like it lasted a billion years.

 

I hate this Rory storyline worse than I hate the dropping out of Yale storyline because at least it was about her being an idiot about her life and future in general, as opposed to a couple of idiot boys having an idiotic pissing contest over her for a year.

[braziliangirl]

 

I should feel for Dean because as written he's kinda being gas-lighted.

You know, Jess and Rory's relationship actually made me dislike her a lot because of this. I know she was young and maybe in denial but still...I actually thought Dean had his motives for being jealous, he wasn't fabricating things and although misguided I understand his reaction. He likes his girlfriend, everything seems fine, then this guy shows up (that shows a sort of contempt for him) and suddenly everything starts slipping so he starts to control things, getting more frustrated and finally gives up when he gets hit in the head that he already lost (when Rory keeps staring at Jess when she's dancing with Dean).

 

I don't remember feeling he was really agressive but I haven't watched recently so maybe it's because I was too young and that'll change after rewatch.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

You know, Jess and Rory's relationship actually made me dislike her a lot because of this. I know she was young and maybe in denial but still...I actually thought Dean had his motives for being jealous, he wasn't fabricating things and although misguided I understand his reaction. He likes his girlfriend, everything seems fine, then this guy shows up (that shows a sort of contempt for him) and suddenly everything starts slipping so he starts to control things, getting more frustrated and finally gives up when he gets hit in the head that he already lost (when Rory keeps staring at Jess when she's dancing with Dean).

 

I don't remember feeling he was really agressive but I haven't watched recently so maybe it's because I was too young and that'll change after rewatch.

 

Yeah that basket buying episode with this moment: 

 

 

RORY: Why are you only nice to me?

JESS: Excuse me?

RORY: An hour ago you were totally screwing with Dean and now you’re totally nice to me.

JESS: You see, it’s the screwing with Dean - that’s an important step to getting here so that I can be nice to you.

Is when I am officially done with Rory in this story. We get confirmation that her head isn't completely in the sand regarding what is happening.This was the moment she needed to put her foot down if she cared about Dean at all and wanted to be with him. But she doesn't so its kind of tacit endorsement of everything that Jess has been doing.

[solotrek]

That triangle is something I just can't sit through during re-watches. When I try I just end up hating all three at various points during a given episode. I mean, I should feel for Dean because as written he's kinda being gas-lighted. He knows what he's seeing, but he's constantly being told its nothing, all the while Jess is just goading him. But then its like, dude, just break up with her, and I agree with everyone that Jared played him in a way that's extremely hard to root for him at times. Then there is Jess who just everywhere doing that teenage bad boy bullsh*t and it just grates my nerves.

 

I think another problem I have with the triangle is that right after Jess came, CMM got his One Tree Hill gig and they had to write him out. So they wanted to deal with that weird triangle first and had Dean become a seething jealous mad man when there was nothing on Rory's part. And then they basically went right in to the Jess-Rory-Dean triangle with Jess having a lot of similar characteristics as Tristan, except more of an angry bad boy. There really wasn't enough time to breathe between the last Dean-Tristan confrontation and the Dean-Jess ones.

 

.I actually thought Dean had his motives for being jealous, he wasn't fabricating things and although misguided I understand his reaction. He likes his girlfriend, everything seems fine, then this guy shows up (that shows a sort of contempt for him) and suddenly everything starts slipping so he starts to control things, getting more frustrated and finally gives up when he gets hit in the head that he already lost (when Rory keeps staring at Jess when she's dancing with Dean).

I think he had every right to be jealous for sure. I mean when even Lorelei is calling Rory out for doing something wrong, you know she went too far. But the way JP played it was kind of offputting to me. That anger works well in Supernatural when he's dealing with demons and other such things, but kind of raises eyebrows when it's a dramedy teen love story. To be fair, I thought Scott Patterson had the same issue when he had the Luke-Lorelei-Christopher storyline. The character is written that way, but there's going to be a way to play it that doesn't seem like you're going to fly off into a rage and beat someone (like maybe your gf).

 

Is when I am officially done with Rory in this story. We get confirmation that her head isn't completely in the sand regarding what is happening.This was the moment she needed to put her foot down if she cared about Dean at all and wanted to be with him. But she doesn't so its kind of tacit endorsement of everything that Jess has been doing.

 

You know, though the actions bothered me, I thought it was actually really in character. Up until this point, we've seen that Christopher has been an absent father. Richard had just come into her life. Her mother's dating has been kept mostly in the shadows to keep Rory out of it and then she had two messed up flings with significant male figures in Rory's life.

 

Here's Dean, the first guy to really show his affection and go out of his way to woo her. She was awkward beyond belief and didn't know how to handle it.  And then they start dating. He built her a freaken car. He went to her coming out thing and went to her school dance. He put up with her mother and would even hang out with them for movie nights. He hangs out with her and Lane. Really the two most significant people in Rory's life are in good graces with her boyfriend.  With all the reading she's done, on paper, Dean is basically the perfect boyfriend.  Here comes the bad boy who is also showing her a ton of affection. The writers robbed from Peter to pay Paul and now Jess has all the literary, movie, music knowledge and Dean is now monster truck man. How flattering it must be for 2 such (theoretically) wonderful guys to be all over her vying for her affection. From someone as awkward as Rory's point of view, how do you even deal with that? Based on her past history and her personality, it got completely messed up.

[amensisterfriend]

To be fair, I thought Scott Patterson had the same issue when he had the Luke-Lorelei-Christopher storyline. The character is written that way, but there's going to be a way to play it that doesn't seem like you're going to fly off into a rage and beat someone (like maybe your gf).

 

I agree, but blame the writing as much as the acting for that---AS-P had some creepy ideas re excessive anger, bitterness and jealousy being somehow 'romantic' and desirable. Almost no male character on the show was immune from it, IMO, albeit to varying degrees. It may have been more glaring with Dean IMO because he was so flat when he wasn't angry and had so few consistent, positive traits to counterbalance the stuff about him that I didn't like. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I think another problem I have with the triangle is that right after Jess came, CMM got his One Tree Hill gig and they had to write him out. So they wanted to deal with that weird triangle first and had Dean become a seething jealous mad man when there was nothing on Rory's part. And then they basically went right in to the Jess-Rory-Dean triangle with Jess having a lot of similar characteristics as Tristan, except more of an angry bad boy. There really wasn't enough time to breathe between the last Dean-Tristan confrontation and the Dean-Jess ones.

 

I think he had every right to be jealous for sure. I mean when even Lorelei is calling Rory out for doing something wrong, you know she went too far. But the way JP played it was kind of offputting to me. That anger works well in Supernatural when he's dealing with demons and other such things, but kind of raises eyebrows when it's a dramedy teen love story. To be fair, I thought Scott Patterson had the same issue when he had the Luke-Lorelei-Christopher storyline. The character is written that way, but there's going to be a way to play it that doesn't seem like you're going to fly off into a rage and beat someone (like maybe your gf).

 

You know, though the actions bothered me, I thought it was actually really in character. Up until this point, we've seen that Christopher has been an absent father. Richard had just come into her life. Her mother's dating has been kept mostly in the shadows to keep Rory out of it and then she had two messed up flings with significant male figures in Rory's life.

 

Here's Dean, the first guy to really show his affection and go out of his way to woo her. She was awkward beyond belief and didn't know how to handle it.  And then they start dating. He built her a freaken car. He went to her coming out thing and went to her school dance. He put up with her mother and would even hang out with them for movie nights. He hangs out with her and Lane. Really the two most significant people in Rory's life are in good graces with her boyfriend.  With all the reading she's done, on paper, Dean is basically the perfect boyfriend.  Here comes the bad boy who is also showing her a ton of affection. The writers robbed from Peter to pay Paul and now Jess has all the literary, movie, music knowledge and Dean is now monster truck man. How flattering it must be for 2 such (theoretically) wonderful guys to be all over her vying for her affection. From someone as awkward as Rory's point of view, how do you even deal with that? Based on her past history and her personality, it got completely messed up.

 

I agree her actions, as infuriating as they may be, are believable for the character. Its this behavior the selfishness, her lack of spine, and the buried  need for attention and to be taken care of, that inform her latter bad choices. I think this is why I never saw the early seasons as a Shangri-La for Rory's character. To me the things she needed to work on in later seasons reared there heads even then and went unchecked.

[amensisterfriend]

You totally nailed why I have the UO of not disliking the Dean/Rory/Jess triangle nearly as much as I normally would---and this is coming from someone who generally haaaates any and all loves triangles with a fiery passion :) The way that storyline played out really did feel in character for Rory, bringing out and highlighting some of her traits: rigidly opposed to change (i.e., risking leaving the relative 'safe' relationship with Dean to see what might happen with Jess), her people pleasing need to be a good person (and 'good' people, she would figure, wouldn't leave one guy for another!), her relative social and emotional obliviousness that was in stark contrast to her academic intelligence, and her general passivity. (This is all why I also hold the very UO that EarlySeasonRory was far from flawless and a more layered character than she's generally given credit for, by the way---for me, all of the above were pretty consistently depicted flaws...some of which I could relate to all too well!:) ) That's not to absolve Rory for her mistakes with regard to Dean and Jess, but just to say that for me they made a weird sort of sense. 

 

I also had the advantage of binge watching those early seasons on DVD as opposed to having to wait until each episode originally aired, which may be a factor in why the love triangle didn't seem AS painfully dragged out to me as I'm sure it did to most :) 

Edited January 15, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Aloeonatable]

 

 

Setting aside Rory's motive for a moment. He did send an invite and its not crazy she would go there to support a friend without romantic intentions, she was proud of him, no matter what, for what he accomplished.

I'm just saying he knew she was in a bad place emotionally last time he saw her and was in a relationship. A friend might ask a few more questions before macking on her. His "is everything fixed" is presumptuous for one, like he was just waiting for her to come running to him. Which feels dismissive of her relationship and just her feelings in general. I mean its been two years since you were together, can you ask the girl a few questions about her life before kissing her?

I'm not absolving Rory at all she was the one who went there. We presume for a little payback, but she didn't actually initiate anything so we don't know if she would have went through with it herself.

 

It was more than a presumption that Rory went to see Jess for a little payback because she admitted that was the reason she went. Jess sent Rory an invitation because he credited her with getting him to write a book and get it published, so why wouldn't he want her to see his workplace? She went and hung around until everyone left, so I can see why he thought she might want to spend time with him alone. I did post that I thought the kiss might be a bit premature, but Rory didn't push him away until her better self admitted her love for Logan. 

 

I know this is really an UO, but I never saw Dean as being dumbed down so that Jess could be more of Rory's intellectual equal. He never seemed all that smart or interesting to me. He obviously had mechanical skills and did mention that he read a little Hunter Thompson, but when else did we see him read a book. Why wouldn't someone who worked on cars and ride a motorcycle enjoy monster truck rallies? 

 

As for the LTFH, my only complaint was that it lasted too long.  Rory, Jess and Dean acted like hormonal teenagers and I blame Rory for sending both boys mixed messages. That was her way, being passive/aggressive, so much her character.

 

I think another problem I have with the triangle is that right after Jess came, CMM got his One Tree Hill gig and they had to write him out. So they wanted to deal with that weird triangle first and had Dean become a seething jealous mad man when there was nothing on Rory's part.

 

Actually, CMM left the show before the introduction of Jess. That possible love triangle ended at the end of season 1. If CMM had stayed, as recurring per his contract, who knows where his storyline would have gone. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by Aloeonatable

[amensisterfriend]

I know this is really an UO, but I never saw Dean as being dumbed down so that Jess could be more of Rory's intellectual equal. He never seemed all that smart or interesting to

 

I totally share this UO! Aside from maybe his first one or two appearances, I thought Dean was always really dull, simple and kind of dopey. And the jealousy/anger/petulance stuff predated Jess, with the ridiculous overreaction on their three month anniversary being one major example.   

[readster]

 

Here's Dean, the first guy to really show his affection and go out of his way to woo her. She was awkward beyond belief and didn't know how to handle it.  And then they start dating. He built her a freaken car. He went to her coming out thing and went to her school dance. He put up with her mother and would even hang out with them for movie nights. He hangs out with her and Lane. Really the two most significant people in Rory's life are in good graces with her boyfriend.  With all the reading she's done, on paper, Dean is basically the perfect boyfriend.  Here comes the bad boy who is also showing her a ton of affection. The writers robbed from Peter to pay Paul and now Jess has all the literary, movie, music knowledge and Dean is now monster truck man. How flattering it must be for 2 such (theoretically) wonderful guys to be all over her vying for her affection. From someone as awkward as Rory's point of view, how do you even deal with that? Based on her past history and her personality, it got completely messed up.

 

 I agree on all parts, I do believe JP was limited in his comedy delivery and what the character of Dean was suppose to be about but it just went so wrong. Especially when it came to Jess, and the fact he got together with another girl to make Rory jealous and we never knew how he ended it with her. Just that it was over when all was said and done. In truth, ASP was too tangled in Love Triangles with the main cast members I mean Lorelai/Luke/Christopher, Rory/Dean/Tristian, Rory/Dean/Jess, Rory/Dean/Logan, Emily/Richard/Pennilyn, Luke/Lorelai/Nicole, Lorelai/Christopher/insert name here. The only way to play up who was the better pick was to play the other one as either jealous borderlining on abuse or losing intelligence to where you were surprise they could tie their shoes. I was actually happy when Dean and Jess were both gone when season 4 started and they introduced Marty. I was like: "Finally, try someone who can take the best of both." Then it became Rory/Marty/Logan/Dean and then Rory/Marty/Logan. It was like Brenda Hampton's writing on 7th Heaven and Secret Life. All her stories were based on what happened to another family member or what she read in a newspaper. She went on record saying she wrote based on other people's lives with own twist. In ASP, she wrote her view on what she believed was how things were. Both were screwed up.