One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[Smad]

One of these days you have to explain to me amensisterfriend how you can get so down on Luke and fawn over Chris (and not related to a romantic relationship with Lorelai). At least Luke would never let his father call the love of his life a whore, his child a mistake, wouldn't try to break up the realtionship of his love with another man, take advantage of someone emotionally broken, wouldn't neglect and use his own child, complain like a 5 year old when family matters interrupt his perfectly paid for date and...nah I won't continue I'm already exhausted.

 

I just don't get the Chris love, I really don't. Maybe that's my UO.

[amensisterfriend]

One of these days you have to explain to me amensisterfriend how you can get so down on Luke and fawn over Chris (and not related to a romantic relationship with Lorelai)

 

No thanks! I've already explained my feelings about Christopher multiple times, readily acknowledging his myriad flaws and stating that I would never put my faith in him if he were a real person. If that's your definition of "fawning", you might want to update your dictionary. Meanwhile, we should probably take advantage of this awesome site's "ignore" function. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Melancholy]

Luke is an embarrassingly clueless, rude, negative, angry and joy-stealing boor in AVV, but IMUO that's no different from usual. It's nice that he occasionally builds or fixes something, but the remaining 99% of the time he'd be among the world's most boring, depressing and difficult people to be around. Have you guys ever had to spend prolonged time with someone like Luke---someone who has no interests and is apt to mock yours, freaks out at the proverbial drop of a hat, complains constantly about every single aspect of life and stomps off in jealous rages when, for instance, he hears the father of your child has left a message on your answering machine? Luke is a charmless, brutish clod who has very serious anger issues and would be relentlessly depressing to spend any time with, but since the 'curmudgeon with secret heart of gold' is a character type we're all taught to love (though usually only in men, not women!), he's given a free pass.

First, I agree with pawneerangers that Luke has a lot of interests and not just interests but *skills*- cooking, fishing, camping, fixing things, sports like baseball to play and watch. He gets famously cranky when he's dragged into cutesey stuff that he doesn't care for, namely town activities where he's supposed to donate his time, money, diner food, freedoms to operate at his own choosing in the name of Stars Hallow where Taylor is Mr. "I LOVE the town...I'm donating the day old sushi at five percent off for volunteers who work all day." However actually, IMO, Luke far from being apt to mock others interests, is actually the character on the show who's the most open-minded to accepting and even participating in things that he doesn't care for to be kind. Lorelai whines constantly when her parents make her engage in their interests that she doesn't care for or even if she does care for it just because it's in their world. The question in Lorelai/Luke is- is Lorelai being benevolent or pushing Luke away to have him camp and do rough and ready Luke-hobbies because he's been neglecting them to mainly do things that Lorelai enjoys. It's never even considered that Lorelai would go camping or fishing with Luke or they'd pick up a building project together while he teaches her. Luke watches whatever movies Lorelai wants, goes golfing with Richard, doesn't understand Jess's spoken word poetry and abstract art at his store but wants to support him anyway, isn't a science nerd but wants to be there for April, thinks the Renaissance Fair is bullshit but comes out to sell Liz's jewelry and does most of the work to make her Ren Faire Dream Wedding. I really can't think of another character on this show who steps out of his zone as much to accommodate and even celebrate others' hobbies. *Maybe* Rory, although she's challenged less admittedly because I think she can very amiably like most anything while she's in it even if she won't take home everything as a hobby permanently. 

 

And Luke didn't get furious just for hearing Chris's message on the answering machine. He was angry when Lorelai cut off the machine right when she saw Luke, like she was guilty and having a secret relationship. That WAS aggravating and suspicious since Lorelai promised to cut Chris out of her life (even though Luke doubted she'd do it) after her lying/hiding drinking all night with Chris in the most suspicious, ham handed way possible for someone who wasn't even contemplating infidelity played its role in almost capsizing their relationship. Even Lorelai knew that her reflex was suspicious and needed explaining, and it wasn't just an innocent message from the father of their kid. The conflict was that Luke didn't want to have it out then and instead, held onto his mistrust and anger through dinner with Sookie and Jackson. 

 

Frankly after Lorelai's behavior in Partings, Luke's suspicion and anger about Christopher seemed even more justified retroactively. Chris is always there in the background as the guy Lorelai "wants to want", and Chris puts himself constantly in Lorelai's rear view mirror ready to swoop in if Luke/Lorelai had problems.

[solotrek]

He says something in the episode where he builds Lorelai an ice rink about how he knows he's grumpy about things but doesn't want her to be. That always sticks with me because I think that he likes how she's enthusiastic about a lot of stuff even when he grumbles about it.

 

There's another moment similar to this after the fight where Luke finds out that Lorelai took his boat in and they're outside Miss Patty's. Lorelai says that she was just thinking how she thinks and not how Luke thinks and his response to her is to continue thinking how she does. It's kind of affirmation that (had the gigantic April wrench not get thrown in) Luke really was adjusting his life based on Lorelai's whims. She's happy he's happy. Of course when April was introduced, it was April first then Lorelai. While that has its issues, I'm actually ok with that sentiment (not how it was carried out).

[amensisterfriend]

Fair enough, Melancholy! I don't agree with many of your points, but I respect the way you presented them.

 

This used to be a place where everyone expressed UOs and people either agreed or simply moved on rather than arguing. People had REALLY differing views, but we all got along amazingly well and even formed friendships elsewhere. But the dynamic has clearly changed, and I just don't have the energy for a contentious thread in which people's opinions are picked apart. I know I'm not alone in disliking Luke---and thanks for the many 'likes' and messages confirming that!---but I've already expressed my UOs about him and others too many times, so it's probably time that this thread and I part ways. I'm sure I'll see some of you in other places when the arrival finally airs! Until then, thanks to the many bright, insightful, awesomely open people who made this place so much fun for a very long time :) 

[Melancholy]

I'm sorry, amen. I didn't mean to drive you away. If there's a consensus that we shouldn't debate UOs on this thread, I'm good with that. You're the second person I've heard it from. I can take a hint. :-)

[dustylil]

Add in Rachel who came and went as she pleased

 

With respect, was there some reason why she should not have? She was pursuing her career as a photographer.  There was nothing to prevent Luke from going off to spend time with her, if that is something they both wanted. He was running a diner, not seeking a cure for some dread disease.  Somehow though he was able leave Stars Hollow for several weeks when Liz and TJ needed help after their accident.

Also,  it is not as if Luke was  waiting - patiently and celibately - for her return. I offer  April Nardini as Exhibit A. And according to Liz, he had other romantic involvements as well.

I can certainly sympathize with Luke in the loss of his parents and the loneliness that brought about  for much of his adulthood. But I think he has to take some ownership for the dysfunction in his love life.

 

asf,  please don't leave! We need more than just me here as resident crank!

[Eyes High]

To add my $0.02 on the Logan/Jess/Dean issue, the only answer is surely that Rory should end up with... Paris. Hey, it's the 21st Century! Though I would feel sorry for Doyle and Emily would have a heart attack.

I 100% buy Paris as a lesbian (or bisexual). I cannot for the life of me see Rory as anything but heterosexual. There's some awesome Rory/Paris fic out there, though.

[txhorns79]

There's some awesome Rory/Paris fic out there, though.

 

I am sure there is every kind of sexual arrangement out there in fan fiction land.  Lorelai/Sookie, Lorelai/Luke/Christopher, Kirk/Miss Patty, Rory/Paris/Logan, Paris/Tristan, Madeline/Louise/Paris, Max/Luke, Liz/Lorelai/Mrs. Kim, Emily/Luke and so on.  

 

 

Frankly after Lorelai's behavior in Partings, Luke's suspicion and anger about Christopher seemed even more justified retroactively. Chris is always there in the background as the guy Lorelai "wants to want", and Chris puts himself constantly in Lorelai's rear view mirror ready to swoop in if Luke/Lorelai had problems.

 

I kind of agree, but I also think it's really about trust.  The more Luke frets about Chris, the more it shows he doesn't trust Lorelai. 

[Melancholy]

I kind of agree, but I also think it's really about trust.  The more Luke frets about Chris, the more it shows he doesn't trust Lorelai. 

 

Although, I don't think Luke frequently fretted out-loud about Chris after he and Lorelai got together. Just in the WBB beak-up and for the several-hour-long The Prodigal Daughter fight which was quickly resolved. However, I do think it occupied quite a bit of his mental real estate even though he actually really did try to be cool with it. And I think Luke tried being cool with it because he fundamentally trusts Lorelai as a human being. However, I do think Luke shared some of Rory's and to be frank, MINE feelings on her feelings about Christopher, despite viewing Lorelai as fundamentally faithful and honest:

 

RORY: Every time he comes back, he ends up messing up your life.

LORELAI: Not true.

RORY: It's completely true. He wants you back, and then he disappears or Sherry gets pregnant or he loses his job or he just takes off -- whatever. No good reason necessary. And it's been like this forever, and you just let him do it. You can't help it.

LORELAI: Rory, come on.

RORY: You can't just break free of him.

LORELAI: What are you talking about?

RORY: You're engaged to Max, and then suddenly, you're not.

LORELAI: Christopher had nothing to do with Max.

RORY: Who was the person you were calling from your bachelorette party?

LORELAI: I was drunk. I tried to call Abe Vigoda, too, if you remember.

RORY: You're just always waiting for him to get himself together.

[shron17]

I kind of agree, but I also think it's really about trust.

 

I think Luke did trust her until he found out she didn't tell him she spent the night drinking with Christopher.  Also, having to hear Chris go on about how Lorelai was meant to be with him and Luke was just for now would make it difficult not to see him as a threat even if he trusted Lorelai.

[dustylil]

I don't think Luke trusted Lorelai all that much at all. That telephone call from Christopher came some eight months after vow renewal debacle. That was the first time Lorelai had heard from him since then. Nor had the devoted father been in touch with Rory during that period - but I digress.

Naturally, Lorelai was shocked when she heard the telephone message and I agree she initially handled it badly. But when your partner - the one you supposedly  love, who proposed to you and with whom you were planning to spend the rest of your life - tells you the facts of the matter, you are expected to believe them. Not persistently questioning the person about  how often it really was  that these conversations had been going on.  Because he clearly didn't believe her. And worse, asking   it was  just talking the two of them were doing, wasn't I? (Had he really thought all these months they had been doing more drinking at Francine's house that night? Nice.)

 

I had hoped at the time the episode first aired that when later that evening Lorelai took the plate of food over to Luke's apartment, she was also returning the engagement ring.  

 

Compare that to Lorelai's conduct in the first several weeks when she learned about April. Of course, not from Luke. That was a pretty massive and lengthy deception on his part, particularly from one who insisted on a no-secrets pact between the two of them. Yet she took him at his word  as to why he didn't tell her and offered to help him as he got to know his daughter. There was no demanding of details as to his current meetings,  telephone calls or other interactions with Anna. No snide comments - even when he spoke well of Anna and spent less time with her.  Given his behaviour, Lorelai had every reason to at least have some doubts.  Yet she trusted him.

 

 

[themoon411]

I think luke had better reasons to distrust laurelie. For one thing, he knew for a fact Chris was romantically interested in her. For another, he probably had an inkling of their previous attempt at a relationship. This happened when they were still friends, so I can see lor giving him some details. Also rory was a grown up at this point, so there really wasn't any reason for lor to have contact with chris. And since hindsight is 20/20, he was correct in worrying that Chris posed a threat to their relationship.

What I find strange is that it took L and L this long to date. In season one they both liked each, and it seemed everybody over the age of 2 was aware of this. They were also both unattached. Why wasn't the dating happening?? Luke might have been a bit shy, but he seemed assertive enough to ask out nicole, so why not lor. In most shows where you have this type of pining, there are usual serious complications that keep the character from revealing their feelings, or the pining rarely lasts longer then a season! There were many times within the show that both were unattached and yet nothing ever happened.

I also think the reason lorelie liked luke so much is she hated change. She reacted badly to it. I mean she couldn't even get a new car. If she stayed with luke she wouldn't have to move, or change her friend circle, or worry about a different dynamic with rory. She could continue life as is with no sacrifices. So I feel it's wasn't that she loved luke, but that she loved that the lack of change luke required!

[Melancholy]

I don't think Luke trusted Lorelai all that much at all. That telephone call from Christopher came some eight months after vow renewal debacle. That was the first time Lorelai had heard from him since then. Nor had the devoted father been in touch with Rory during that period - but I digress.

Naturally, Lorelai was shocked when she heard the telephone message and I agree she initially handled it badly. But when your partner - the one you supposedly  love, who proposed to you and with whom you were planning to spend the rest of your life - tells you the facts of the matter, you are expected to believe them. Not persistently questioning the person about  how often it really was  that these conversations had been going on.  Because he clearly didn't believe her. And worse, asking   it was  just talking the two of them were doing, wasn't I? (Had he really thought all these months they had been doing more drinking at Francine's house that night? Nice.)

 

I had hoped at the time the episode first aired that when later that evening Lorelai took the plate of food over to Luke's apartment, she was also returning the engagement ring.  

 

Compare that to Lorelai's conduct in the first several weeks when she learned about April. Of course, not from Luke. That was a pretty massive and lengthy deception on his part, particularly from one who insisted on a no-secrets pact between the two of them. Yet she took him at his word  as to why he didn't tell her and offered to help him as he got to know his daughter. There was no demanding of details as to his current meetings,  telephone calls or other interactions with Anna. No snide comments - even when he spoke well of Anna and spent less time with her.  Given his behaviour, Lorelai had every reason to at least have some doubts.  Yet she trusted him.

 

That's a huge and hard-to-believe coincidence- it's the first time that Lorelai heard from Chris in the last eight months but she feels so nervous about this out-the-blue message that she has to immediately slam it off when Luke walks into the room. It's so bizarre that it's hard to believe. Why was Lorelai so nervous about Luke just hearing an out-of-the-blue phone message that Lorelai did not solicit or ask for? Moreover, does this indicate that Lorelai would have told Luke that Chris wanted to renew contact? Because it looks like Lorelai was planning to lie about that just like she lied that she was spending time with Rory while she was drinking all night at Chris's house. I really get why Luke didn't instantly trust Lorelai on this subject when she already lied about contact with Chris before. Frankly, Luke is a better person than me. I think I'd be very tempted to rejoin with "I thought you promised to cut him out of your life" when Lorelai did LG's big breathy good-person-communicating-serious-thought affect of "Chris is Rory's father. He'll always in my life." (Not so much to lay down a gauntlet that Chris can't be part of Lorelai. That can't occur because of Rory. Just to challenge Lorelai on what she says.) 

 

On first meeting, I think there's a difference between not trusting Lorelai who's already lied about time with Chris before and not trusting Luke who hadn't lied before in their relationship. I also think fears of an affair with another adult who still has the hots for you are more real and lend themselves to easier than jealousy than a claims that you just found out that you're a father of a twelve year old. Lorelai has no concerns that Luke will betray her with April. Also, I do think Lorelai was constantly expecting that ANY DAY NOW she'd be invited into April's life and she could talk to an innocent twelve-year old about how she happened on Luke. To Lorelai, it was inevitable that she'd be getting the other side of the story as part of her very life as a stepmother so why would Luke lie. As that kept on not being the case and Lorelai continued to be shut out of April's life, I actually think that Lorelai should have gotten angry and mistrustful and reminded Luke he didn't owe Anna the sole or even the most honesty and consideration and sensitivity but instead, his fiancé who could just walk away. Instead, Lorelai bit her tongue till it bled and it was a very bad choice for her and Luke (and IMO, April who'd benefit from having Lorelai in her life and Anna who needed to taught sooner that Luke wants to exercise the parental rights that he should have had all along as opposed to Luke pacifying Anna in exchange for crumbs of visitation by neglecting Lorelai and then, paying for it next year when Anna was so used not even considering Luke as a father but instead a dude who she does a favor for by letting him see April that Luke had to drag Anna to court to resolve this mess once and for all.) 

Edited February 14, 2016 by Melancholy

[dustylil]

That's a huge and hard-to-believe coincidence- it's the first time that Lorelai heard from Chris in the last eight months but she feels so nervous about this out-the-blue message that she has to immediately slam it off when Luke walks into the room

 

Just because it is hard to believe doesn't it make it any less true.

Lorelai has no concerns that Luke will betray her with April

 

Of course not. But my comments were about Luke and April's mother. As I thought was abundantly clear in my post. Lorelai didn't know if Anna wanted to start things up again with Luke. But she trusted him to behave in an honourable manner.

not trusting Luke who hadn't lied before in their relationship

 

Actually, he had. And about April. Just after Rory returned, she and Lorelai were in the diner chatting with Luke. Rory asked him what was new. After a rather shifty "why, what have you heard" and Rory's response to the negative, Luke said there was nothing new. He could have just as readily have said, "Yes, there is something. And I'll tell you about it after I've talked to your Mom."

[Kohola3]

Just need to throw in a random "Luke had good points" moment.  

 

As much as Kirk drove him nuts, he took the time to find the missing rotten 12 eggs, hand them to Kirk, and tell Kirk to pretend to Taylor that he had found them. I always found that to be the quiet strength in Luke, doing little things without making a big deal about it.

[shron17]

Just because it is hard to believe doesn't it make it any less true.

We the viewers and Lorelai knew this was true; Luke did not.  And Lorelai had withheld facts about Christopher before and did act suspiciously.

 

Actually, he had. And about April. Just after Rory returned, she and Lorelai were in the diner chatting with Luke. Rory asked him what was new. After a rather shifty "why, what have you heard" and Rory's response to the negative, Luke said there was nothing new.

This happened after the fight about Christopher calling, not before. I also remember Rory asking Lorelai if she'd stepped in something after that conversation and Lorelai answered she had no idea.  Too bad Lorelai didn't take the time to go back and ask Luke when they were alone to see if something was going on with him.  Apparently she was too wrapped up in her reunion with Rory to take notice of what might going on with Luke.  Not to say it was okay for Luke to lie because of course it wasn't.  Nevertheless, the motivations for lying about seeing an ex and for not blurting out that you have a long lost daughter are completely different and not really comparable.

[dustylil]

the motivations for lying about seeing an ex and for not blurting out that you have a long lost daughter are completely different and not really comparable

 

I did not suggest in my earlier post that Luke should have blurted out the news of a  previously unknown offspring. I said - quite clearly I thought - that he should have told Rory something had happened and he would tell her about it once he had had a chance to discuss the matter with Lorelai.

This happened after the fight about Christopher calling, not before

 

Yes, I know. That was why I mentioned it. It was also  after the "no secrets" pact.

Too bad Lorelai didn't take the time to go back and ask Luke when they were alone to see if something was going on with him.  Apparently she was too wrapped up in her reunion with Rory to take notice of what might going on with Luke

 

Perhaps she had learned from  earlier experience in their relationship not to push or prod him - and that he would tell her when he was ready. Or in this case, after someone else did.

[txhorns79]

I think we all take different things from each other's comments about the characters or various plot points on the show.  I certainly have used other's comments as a bridge to disagree or discuss something beyond what they may have originally intended.  I think others have done the same with my comments.  I enjoy the back and forth quite a bit, and appreciate the different perspectives.  (The comment I was responding to appears to have been taken down, but my general sentiment remains the same.)

 

 As much as Kirk drove him nuts, he took the time to find the missing rotten 12 eggs, hand them to Kirk, and tell Kirk to pretend to Taylor that he had found them. I always found that to be the quiet strength in Luke, doing little things without making a big deal about it.

 

    

It was a nice Luke moment.  He saw Kirk essentially melting down,  and he did a very nice thing for the guy.  It was also nice when Luke set up the diner for Kirk's date with Lulu.

Edited February 14, 2016 by txhorns79

[Minneapple]

Why was Lorelai so nervous about Luke just hearing an out-of-the-blue phone message that Lorelai did not solicit or ask for?

 

Because she knew that he'd react the way he did.

 

I hated Luke's behavior in that whole scene. "How long has this been going on, you talking to Christopher." And "We're not fighting. Yet." Like it was some kind of threat. Then he proceeded to sulk through dinner like a petulant child.

 

The other time I hated Luke's behavior was when Lorelai offered to put the wedding on hold because of April and he jumped at the chance like it was the best thing he'd heard all week. No no no Luke, You're supposed to say, "No, Lorelai, I love you. We are a team so let's get married and figure this thing out together."

[Guest]

One UO I have is that Dean wasn't so bad in his first break up with Rory. Yes, he was wrong, but they were just kids. My disgust is more over Lorelai thinking there is something wrong with Rory for not being able to say "I love you" after "two whole months."

[txhorns79]

One UO I have is that Dean wasn't so bad in his first break up with Rory. Yes, he was wrong, but they were just kids. My disgust is more over Lorelai thinking there is something wrong with Rory for not being able to say "I love you" after "two whole months."

 

I think Lorelai was like that with Rory because Lorelai was clearly ready to say "I love you" to Dean within the first two weeks. 

 

I'm with you though regarding the break up.  I think the underlying reason for the break up was stupid, given that they weren't that far along in the relationship (and who wants to have someone say "I love you," to you because they felt obligated?), but that's high school.

Edited February 15, 2016 by txhorns79

[solotrek]

I think Lorelai was like that with Rory because Lorelai was clearly ready to say "I love you" to Dean within the first two weeks. 

 

I'm with you though regarding the break up.  I think the underlying reason for the break up was stupid, given that they weren't that far along in the relationship (and who wants to have someone say "I love you," to you because they felt obligated?), but that's high school.

If Rory didn't even know Dean's sister's name at the point of their break up, saying "I love you" is beyond too early.

[andromeda331]

My UO is I don't care about Dean (Which I know is common) but I love the scenes we got

between Lorelai and Rory as Rory started dating. From helping her to decide what to wear

when Lorelai invited Dean over for the movie, Rory's Dance up to the dance, and I loved

after the breakup Rory immediately getting rid of all of her Dean stuff and telling her mother

to get it far, far from the house and Lorelai instead hides the box. The next day Rory attempting

to pretend it was no big deal, while cleaning, making lists and planning to be busy all day long.

Rory helping Paris get ready for her date and talking about how nervous she was.

[moonb]

I think this is an unpopular opinion.....I know season 3's "They Shoot Gilmores, Don't They?" is a really popular episode, but I've only watched it once or twice on Netflix. It has stuff I love - the gorgeous dance marathon costumes and styling! - but I don't know, I usually just skip to other eps. Maybe it's the Dean/Jess stuff, but I'm so detached from it. 

[andromeda331]

Maybe it is. The Dean/Jess stuff is my least favorite part of the episode for me. I love the costumes,

Lorelai being excited about the dance, Dave of course, and also how sweetly Emily of all people tries to

cheer Lorelai up after her dance partner bails by telling her she can make her asparagus talk.

[brightside]

My UO is definitely that I love Logan and enjoy the Life and Death Brigade very much. I feel like when I was 20 I would've loved to do stupid things like run around in a ball gown in the woods. Why not? They looked like they were having fun to me. I certainly did my fair share of stupid pranks and things in college, and I was one of the "good kids". And none of the Life and Death Brigade stunts we saw/were informed of were destructive in anyway--they were just stunts. Yeah they weren't smart (drunk while base jumping? oy) but sometimes I feel like fans act like those stunts were horrible things to do, as if people don't pay to go base jumping/skydiving/bungee jumping all the time.

 

I don't know, maybe it's because I went to college at one of those fancy expensive New England schools and spent a majority of my 4 years there learning to tell the difference between the awful Richie Riches and good ones (mostly for who is actually going work on the group project purposes...because YIKES) but Logan and his crew never really bothered me. Except Colin. Colin kinda sucks. He's one of the awful ones. I think Logan sometimes gets pegged for Colin's comments (mostly towards Marty). 

[photo fox]

Agreed. The LADB stuff was silly and wasteful, perhaps, but they never injured anyone but themselves with their stunts. They weren't hazing anyone, or getting people drunk and taking advantage, or vandalizing things, etc. I thought the big jump was awesome, and the human skeet shooting was hilarious. The "no Es" guys were obnoxious, but they weren't hurting anyone.

Colin was an ass to Marty, no doubt, but Logan and Finn both told him to cut it out. And Colin was frequently an ass - to everyone. He was an equal opportunity jerk.

[brightside]

Agreed. The LADB stuff was silly and wasteful, perhaps, but they never injured anyone but themselves with their stunts. They weren't hazing anyone, or getting people drunk and taking advantage, or vandalizing things, etc. I thought the big jump was awesome, and the human skeet shooting was hilarious. The "no Es" guys were obnoxious, but they weren't hurting anyone.

 

The human skeet shooting is my favorite! I would totally do that, it looks like fun! And while the "No Es" guys were kinda obnoxious, I was always too impressed to care. Having a conversation without the letter 'E' requires quite the vocabulary. 

 

The Life and Death Brigade's biggest crime is that they're rich. This show so frequently took an anti-money stance that I think a lot of the fans were on board with and I think it stuck no matter the characters or situation.

Edited February 20, 2016 by brightside

[Melancholy]

I also liked the Life & Death Brigade. Lorelai played loud, entitled pranks that could have consequences from having a scavenger hunt at a birthday party for Rory that ended in raiding Taylor's fridge to the police raided little girl's birthday party for Rory. She played sexual, crude jokes like pretending that she was a bimbo secretary that Richard was banging to mess with Emily. Switching the wedding planner's seat arrangement in a manner that got the wedding planner fired and probably her reputation besmirched. Giving companies obviously fake aliases just to see if they'd send extra catalogues to her under those names, until years later, it occurred to Lorelai that this was clogging up their mail and to more responsible Rory, that it was environmentally wasteful.

 

The Life & Death Brigade seemed to have similar trickster, loud, entitled instincts but they had the money and endless free time to scale it up. Like Lorelai's pranks, they were entitled and annoying but also hilarious and enviably fun looking. And unlike Lorelai, the Life & Death Brigade weren't hypocrites about what they were doing. Although, they also couldn't turn it off- I was with Rory's anger that Colin and Finn were making a big joke out of Logan's hospitalization. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Melancholy

[takalotti]

Not disputing the LaDB opinions, because you're right, their hijinks were harmless fun and being wasteful with money is all relative. But just to give a little explanation to the "popular" opinion...

Logan, at least, was happy to use family-money for fun, but then acted put upon when his dad wanted him to fulfill certain family responsibilities. And I don't think he was hoodwinked into those responsibilities (like being led to believe he'd be able to lead a life of luxury without lifting a finger and only at the last second being told he had a predetermined career path), though of course I don't know.

We never heard the others in the LaDB bemoan their family duties, so I'm not justified in assuming that at least many if not most of them are hypocrites like Logan, but that's where I am.

[readster]

Not disputing the LaDB opinions, because you're right, their hijinks were harmless fun and being wasteful with money is all relative. But just to give a little explanation to the "popular" opinion...

Logan, at least, was happy to use family-money for fun, but then acted put upon when his dad wanted him to fulfill certain family responsibilities. And I don't think he was hoodwinked into those responsibilities (like being led to believe he'd be able to lead a life of luxury without lifting a finger and only at the last second being told he had a predetermined career path), though of course I don't know.

We never heard the others in the LaDB bemoan their family duties, so I'm not justified in assuming that at least many if not most of them are hypocrites like Logan, but that's where I am.

They also brought that up when Rory said that both Mitchum and his dad were part of the LADB. Followed by Logan saying: "Yeah, but then they grew up and went to do business and have a family." Yet, Logan acted like the life wasn't for him, when he would have to work for money eventually. Plus, how his mom and grandfather hated Rory from being from the "wrong type of family" which made no sense. Since his mom was a former dancer and apparently the grandmother wasn't ivy league either. Plus from what both Richard and Emily knew, they were both cheaters and liars. Hence they couldn't believe they would belittle Rory so much since they got where they were through marriage and being told they weren't good enough. So it came across that the entire Hutzburger family were hypocrites who just happen to fall up to success and then judged others when they came from not so amazing backgrounds like say Richard's family or even Emily's. Who lived in that life style since day one and took responsibilities and kept going through business and society practices. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by readster

[Melancholy]

Not disputing the LaDB opinions, because you're right, their hijinks were harmless fun and being wasteful with money is all relative. But just to give a little explanation to the "popular" opinion...

Logan, at least, was happy to use family-money for fun, but then acted put upon when his dad wanted him to fulfill certain family responsibilities. And I don't think he was hoodwinked into those responsibilities (like being led to believe he'd be able to lead a life of luxury without lifting a finger and only at the last second being told he had a predetermined career path), though of course I don't know.

We never heard the others in the LaDB bemoan their family duties, so I'm not justified in assuming that at least many if not most of them are hypocrites like Logan, but that's where I am.

 

I see your point. And no, I don't think Logan was hoodwinked at all. I think he was told that he'd be a hard-working executive in the Huntzberger media empire and then, replace his father as CEO when Mitchum was ready to retire since he was knee high to a grasshopper.

 

I will say, though, that the Huntzbergers did appear to have different rules for Logan and Honor. My impression was that Honor, as the girl, just got to enjoy the Huntzberger luxuries with no corresponding pressure to eventually make money for the family. However, I'm sure she had other pressures to grow into someone who was a credit instead a strain on the family by marrying well and/or having a prestigious career but IMO, sexism closed off being CEO of the Huntzberger Group to Honor but also put all of the pressure on Logan to fill those shoes even though there were two heirs. 

 

Also, I think Logan was toying with the idea of being a professional dilettante upon graduation. However, most of him was pretty resigned to the fact: 

 

LOGAN: Well, it's my prerogative, you know. You're damn straight. I'm gonna party. I'm gonna do it while I have the chance because come June, my life is over.

 

I think the other members of the family were also aware that Logan knew and accepted that he'd join the business after graduation. 

 

ELIAS: You should know better than this, Logan! I know you like to joke around, and tease us, but I always thought at the end of the day, you understood what your responsibilities to this family were!

 

IMO, Logan was long aware that he'd need to join the family business upon his graduation from Yale, probably with a summer to relax afterward. As I understood it, the biggest tension between Logan and Mitchum was that Mitchum thought Logan's work to prepare to run the family business should start as early as possible and certainly by his later college years. Meanwhile, Logan was running with the "Once you graduate from college, you'll work for the family" rule to infer that Logan had a license to party non-stop until that happened, and even then, Logan was a little stuck on EVENTUALLY you know, after the Asia trip with Rory over the summer and goodness knows what else if Mitchum gave him that inch. 

 

However, I think Logan understood that working for the family was the responsibility that came along with being a trust fund kid. (Which he was refreshingly non-hypocritical about owning unlike Rory who wanted to be seen as an underprivileged striver while having all of the privilege.) He just wanted to keep putting it off, but once he was installed in the Huntzberger London offices, he did work diligently because he understood that the time arrived. However, that said, IMO despite Logan's diligence, he was poorly-prepared for his position because he spent his entire life partying and not learning the high-level business that he was supposed to lead. As Mitchum predicted, yet again. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Melancholy

[readster]

 

As I understood it, the biggest tension between Logan and Mitchum was that Mitchum thought Logan's work to prepare to run the family business should start as early as possible and certainly by his later college years. Meanwhile, Logan was running with the "Once you graduate from college, you'll work for the family" rule to infer that Logan had a license to party non-stop until that happened, and even then, Logan was a little stuck on EVENTUALLY you know, after the Asia trip with Rory over the summer and goodness knows what else if Mitchum gave him that inch.

How very true, and from what I understood from Honor, she probably enjoyed some partying herself, but unlike Logan, she didn't go to the extremes he did. She probably enjoyed the occasional kegger and was aware of the family business. However, she wanted her own goals and ambitions and not that she probably didn't hear she needed to keep the Hutzburger name. However, I did hate she didn't even try to defend Rory after being belittled both both his mother and grandfather. To where Honor went: "You should talk mom?" or: "I'm glad there is no pressure on me (sarcastically). I'm to the point where AS-P's over view of how the rich or DAR worked and so far removed from reality. That when we wanted to see Rory get knocked down a peg that she wasn't perfect or that Emily and Richard needed a reality check on how the world was. It came off as so ridiculous or stupid we not only rolled our eyes but also went: "How stupid are you?" Followed by: "Yep, just keep living in your bubble, hey water is wet." 

[brightside]

I find it hard to judge Logan for acting out/being upset/complaining because I think that if my family forced me into a certain career/job my whole life and stripped away my options I'd probably handle worse, honestly.

 

And it's not like we haven't seen the complaints before. While while more about lifestyle than career-focused, Lorelai spends the whole series complaining about the oppressive environment of the Gilmore household. How she's supposed to go to college, how Chris is supposed to go to college the join his dad's firm where "he gets a big stick to shove up is butt". And Lorelai seemed like she was headed down the path to follow the plan until Rory came along. It wasn't until she had someone else to fight for that she resisted (and ran away). 

 

However, I think Logan understood that working for the family was the responsibility that came along with being a trust fund kid. (Which he was refreshingly non-hypocritical about owning unlike Rory who wanted to be seen as an underprivileged striver while having all of the privilege.) He just wanted to keep putting it off, but once he was installed in the Huntzberger London offices, he did work diligently because he understood that the time arrived. However, that said, IMO despite Logan's diligence, he was poorly-prepared for his position because he spent his entire life partying and not learning the high-level business that he was supposed to lead. As Mitchum predicted, yet again. 

 

I agree with this. BUT I will say that most college kids don't have to be prepared for a high-level position at a major media company the day after their graduation. According to Rory's research, even Mitchum got a few "lost years" after undergrad then worked as a reporter and then as an editor for two papers before he had to become CEO. 

[takalotti]

To me, the difference between Lorelai and Logan is that Lorelai saw that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If she didn't want to have to follow the Gilmores list of societal obligations, that meant she wanted to be independent. And if she was going to be life-decisionally independent then she was going to need to be financially independent so the Gilmores wouldn't hold that over her head. So I don't mind as much when she complains.

I like the idea that Logan's partying ways were because he came to terms with what his life would be once the ax fell and wanted to live it up until then. I hadn't thought about it that way. I just didn't like how he whined about his future like he didn't sign on to it.

[brightside]

To me, the difference between Lorelai and Logan is that Lorelai saw that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If she didn't want to have to follow the Gilmores list of societal obligations, that meant she wanted to be independent. And if she was going to be life-decisionally independent then she was going to need to be financially independent so the Gilmores wouldn't hold that over her head. So I don't mind as much when she complains.

 

But isn't that what Logan did? He didn't like the control his dad had, he didn't want to "be a puppet" so he left the company, and in doing so was financially independent. It was just later that Lorelai--and I don't think you can blame a teenager for not running away from home or not being financially independent like Lorelai was. From what we saw, Lorelai complained while she was going along with all the Gilmore obligations and enjoying all the perks that came with it until having Rory motivated her to leave. But if Lorelai hadn't gotten pregnant and had ended up at college, I'm not so sure she would have been that different from Logan.

[readster]

But isn't that what Logan did? He didn't like the control his dad had, he didn't want to "be a puppet" so he left the company, and in doing so was financially independent. It was just later that Lorelai--and I don't think you can blame a teenager for not running away from home or not being financially independent like Lorelai was. From what we saw, Lorelai complained while she was going along with all the Gilmore obligations and enjoying all the perks that came with it until having Rory motivated her to leave. But if Lorelai hadn't gotten pregnant and had ended up at college, I'm not so sure she would have been that different from Logan.

 

 I don't see, even with the flashbacks and various history visits and what we saw with Lorelai as an adult if she would have been like Logan. Probably having fun, using the Gilmore name and money to party up and enjoy. However, I don't see Lorelai  stealing. Playing tricks sure, but not the extent of getting maids fired or people in tizzies over missing items. Lorelai has done some stupid stuff, but she did know the different between right and wrong and going to far. Of course, that never seem to come into play when it was to messing with Emily. I mean, a wedding planner fired because she had to mess with the seating plan. Because she wanted to annoy her. The testimony she did when the one maid sued Emily. Plus, getting herself with giving the property check to Emily so she wouldn't feel obligated to Friday Night dinners anymore. Lorelai didn't think of consequences of her actions. While Logan did, he had sone enough to the point where he knew what the results would be or would get bailed out as a result. Lorelai wouldn't have done LADB. She would have messed with Emily's fundraiser, but would have stopped when she saw good people getting fired because she has to annoy her mother. Logan, it took almost dying and his relationship with Rory to finally get his act together.

[brightside]

 I don't see, even with the flashbacks and various history visits and what we saw with Lorelai as an adult if she would have been like Logan. Probably having fun, using the Gilmore name and money to party up and enjoy. However, I don't see Lorelai  stealing. Playing tricks sure, but not the extent of getting maids fired or people in tizzies over missing items. Lorelai has done some stupid stuff, but she did know the different between right and wrong and going to far. Of course, that never seem to come into play when it was to messing with Emily. I mean, a wedding planner fired because she had to mess with the seating plan. Because she wanted to annoy her. The testimony she did when the one maid sued Emily. Plus, getting herself with giving the property check to Emily so she wouldn't feel obligated to Friday Night dinners anymore. Lorelai didn't think of consequences of her actions. While Logan did, he had sone enough to the point where he knew what the results would be or would get bailed out as a result. Lorelai wouldn't have done LADB. She would have messed with Emily's fundraiser, but would have stopped when she saw good people getting fired because she has to annoy her mother. Logan, it took almost dying and his relationship with Rory to finally get his act together.

 

I don't think we know that though. If Lorelai had 2 more years in the Gilmore house plus the freedom at college plus the money she had access to...I don't know. As you say, she didn't say anything when she got an innocent woman fired. I feel like a lot of your post actually makes me think that if she were given the same chance to be young, rich and free all at the same time, her growing up process would have been similar to Logan's. While I agree she probably wouldn't steal, I could buy her jumping off of things and messing around the way the LBD did. She did things like ride in Christopher's car while he crashed it and liberated the horses at summer camp and flashing the boys there. Lorelai always had a wild side.

[takalotti]

I do want to bow out of the discussion since this is the UO thread, not the PO thread, but just to respond to the question above, no, I don't agree that that's what Logan did.

I agree, if Lorelai had ridden the Gilmore money train to college and still complained about her obligations, I'd see her the same way I see Logan. And if Logan had owned his life at 18, and found his own way through whatever secondary education he chose, then I would see him the same way I see Lorelai.

But to me, riding the Huntzberger money train through college and then claiming independence is having your cake and eating it too. I don't fault pre-18 Logan for not running away from a privileged life to be independent, just like I don't fault Lorelai for living her privileged life up until Rory was about 1. But if he didn't want the future Mitchum laid out for him, I would have had more respect for him if he had cut financial ties at 18. Maybe if he paid back his college life I'd feel differently.

[Melancholy]

I agree with this. BUT I will say that most college kids don't have to be prepared for a high-level position at a major media company the day after their graduation. According to Rory's research, even Mitchum got a few "lost years" after undergrad then worked as a reporter and then as an editor for two papers before he had to become CEO. 

 

I agree with this. However, I do think Logan reacted to his failure by doubling down even harder on the partying and refusing to deal with the situation even though he still had a team of his father's people still working to clean up his mess very immaturely. He reacted like a 23 year old who never faced adversity or a real challenge or was ever called on to do unpleasant work. I'm pretty sure that if Logan lived as Mitchum wanted him to by taking an interest in the family business, taking on internships at Huntzburger papers, climbing by dint of his own hard work at publications like the Yale Daily News instead of barely writing anything, Logan would be more prepared to make prudent choices and deal with failures when they came once he was installed as a executive at the company. Logan failed so spectacularly and so quickly because he was used to a life of thrill-seeking fun and someone coming to clean up his messes after.

 

However, sure. Some of the failure really is Mitchum's. He should have known that his son may have been smart and talented, but he was too unprepared and not just young in years but also a *young 23* to be playing with millions of dollars. 

[brightside]

But to me, riding the Huntzberger money train through college and then claiming independence is having your cake and eating it too. I don't fault pre-18 Logan for not running away from a privileged life to be independent, just like I don't fault Lorelai for living her privileged life up until Rory was about 1. But if he didn't want the future Mitchum laid out for him, I would have had more respect for him if he had cut financial ties at 18. Maybe if he paid back his college life I'd feel differently.

 

I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this. I can't blame an 18 year old for not turning down the chance to go to Yale debt-free. Maybe it's because my parents paid for my very expensive and rarified private university education, but I don't think that's that unusual. Rory didn't end up paying for school either, Christopher did (although her original plan was to pay back her grandparents, yes--but with much different rules than anyone else would have to deal with when getting a loan). Most of my friends didn't pay for school at all, be it at a state school or private university or community college. Not to say this isn't privileged (it certainly is), just that I don't think it's that rare or odd to take your parents up on paying for school if they are able to do that. I also don't think that leaving and claiming independence after trying for a year is having his cake and eating it too. He did try to live up to his end of the "family obligations", but clearly he wasn't ready for it and working for his father wasn't a good fit for him. 

 

I agree with this. However, I do think Logan reacted to his failure by doubling down even harder on the partying and refusing to deal with the situation even though he still had a team of his father's people still working to clean up his mess very immaturely. He reacted like a 23 year old who never faced adversity or a real challenge or was ever called on to do unpleasant work. I'm pretty sure that if Logan lived as Mitchum wanted him to by taking an interest in the family business, taking on internships at Huntzburger papers, climbing by dint of his own hard work at publications like the Yale Daily News instead of barely writing anything, Logan would be more prepared to make prudent choices and deal with failures when they came once he was installed as a executive at the company. Logan failed so spectacularly and so quickly because he was used to a life of thrill-seeking fun and someone coming to clean up his messes after.

 

However, sure. Some of the failure really is Mitchum's. He should have known that his son may have been smart and talented, but he was too unprepared and not just young in years but also a *young 23* to be playing with millions of dollars. 

 

I don't disagree, if Logan had done as he was told he might have been in a better position, but at the same time I think some of those expectations are a lot to ask of a teenager/someone in the early 20s/still in college. I actually think Logan's regression after his failure is one of the most interesting storylines any of the love interests on this show ever had. You said he reacted like a 23 year old who never faced adversity or a real challenge or was ever called on to do unpleasant work--because that's exactly what he was. Well, I guess he was just turning 25. But still. He was so happy at work before because he was doing well and it was surprising everyone (including himself, I think) and then it all crashed down because he was cocky and didn't do his research and he totally regressed. To me, it had an almost "well I'm not good at anything but this" kinda of attitude to it, though I admit that's my personal feeling towards it rather than anything the show illustrates. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by brightside

[Melancholy]

UO: I enjoyed the Francie and the Puffs stories in S2 and S3. I thought they were hilarious. Rory's and Francie's faux Deep Throat Very Self-Important Political Scenes cracked me up. The Rory v. Paris fencing scene was iconic. I enjoyed the story about navigating the social waters of Chilton and honestly would have liked more of it. Of course, it was verrrrry exaggerated for comedic effect where the antagonist was a cartoon playing that insanity deliberately to the hilt....but that's Gilmore Girls. My only complaint was that I think a prettier more "high school Queen B" actress should have played Francie, but the one that actually did play Francine was talented. Great comedic timing, creative girl!Eddy Haskell vibe, right amount of malice balanced with silliness. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Melancholy

[Eyes High]

I think we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this. I can't blame an 18 year old for not turning down the chance to go to Yale debt-free. 

Sure, but if he's going to accept that opportunity for a free ride at an extremely prestigious university, having plenty of viable alternatives (more than Lorelai would have had), knowing full well that the free ride is contingent on him agreeing to succeed Mitchum, he loses the right to bellyache about how hard done by he is once he accepts the deal. He was not only 18 years old, but he was a smart, able-bodied, straight white dude with no dependents to worry about. He had options (far more options than Lorelai did when she made her decision to strike out on her own). He could have gotten a job. He could have chosen to work to pay his own way through school. He could have joined the armed forces and had his education paid for that way. (He might have even contacted Jess for tips on how to support yourself when your education is fucked and you lose your support system.) He chose not to explore alternatives, he chose not to tell Mitchum that he didn't want to attend Yale with strings attached and accept the consequences of that decision, and he chose to remain firmly attached to the Huntzberger financial teat despite knowing the personal and professional cost, and so he loses the right to complain about how awful his fate is. 

 

I find it hard to judge Logan for acting out/being upset/complaining because I think that if my family forced me into a certain career/job my whole life and stripped away my options I'd probably handle worse, honestly.

Let's be real. Logan was never "forced" and his options were never "stripped away." Logan once he was an adult always had the power to turn his back on his family and cut ties, just as Lorelai did. That he chose not to exercise that option and instead chose to take advantage of an expensive education to party and learn nothing, all the while whining about how horrible his fate was and how his life would soon end, is entirely on him. 

 

No guns were held to Logan's head, either literal or figurative. He was a straight, able-bodied white guy: heck, the world was his oyster. He didn't have great choices if his family cut him off financially, but he always had choices. I can't acquit Logan of failing to see that he did have options, since Lorelai, also from a privileged background and in far more dire straits than Logan ever was when she made her decision to leave, was able to see that she had options. Logan is a smart, perceptive guy, but like many privileged people, he couldn't see past his own nose when it came to the reality of his situation, which is that he always had choices, just not ones he particularly liked and which he chose not to exercise, and that he's no victim.

 

Essentially, he made a deal with the devil and refuses to pay up, claiming all the while that he's some martyr in helpless thrall to his family. He's a little shit who deserves no sympathy on this point. 

 

I don't mind that Logan accepted the deal. However, it's very rich (no pun intended) that he lectures Rory about pretending that she's not privileged when he continues to pretend that he's some sort of helpless victim of his family and when he passive-aggressively lashes out by acting out and complaining. A little self-awareness would be nice. A little maturity from Logan would be nice as well: he should either suck it up and accept his fate with grace and dignity (no bitching, no whining, no passive-aggressive acting out), or tell Mitchum he wants no part of the life Mitchum has planned for him and accept the consequences of that decision, whether those consequences be financial, personal, or otherwise. Adults own their shit. Instead, Logan chose a middle path. He lamely went through the motions of preparing to be Mitchum's heir without committing to it, complaining the entire time and partying up a storm, failed to prepare adequately, and then threw a tantrum when it turned out that he was hopelessly ill-prepared (no doubt due to his passive aggressive lack of effort while at school) and only at this point turned his back on his destiny as Mitchum's successor...after he'd benefited from the free Yale education, of course. It was the behaviour of a child and the essence of cowardice. If he'd had the courage and maturity to tell Mitchum to shove it and keep his money, or, alternatively, if he'd had the courage and maturity to commit himself to the path Mitchum set him on and to train for and show up for that role (no partying, no carousing, no womanizing, no silly stunts, no fucking around, no Colin, no Finn), he could have saved himself a lot of grief. Instead, he chose the most cowardly of half-measures: take the money, whine about it, act out in the most juvenile way possible, do the minimum of effort so that you're guaranteed to fail anyway, and act like a martyr and a victim when you do fail.

 

He did try to live up to his end of the "family obligations", but clearly he wasn't ready for it and working for his father wasn't a good fit for him.

Yes, he waited until after he'd completed his free education at Yale to decide he wasn't cut out for it and bail on his family obligation (the obligation he had implicitly accepted by attending Yale on his father's dime in the first place). Very noble.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[HeySandyStrange]

I think I would've been more sympathetic to Logan's anger at his family's career expectations for him if we got the sense they were trying to force him away from something he wanted to do. But other then seeming not to want to be tied down in the business track, he didn't seem to be interested in anything but partying and enjoying life. It's not like he had a passionate desire to be an artist, ornithologist, or yoga instructor, nor did he go out of his way to cultivate a career/life path that wasn't tied to the world his parents lived in, as Eyes High pointed out. Because of that he came off as more as whiny then truly suffocated.

Edited February 23, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[brightside]

I guess I think it's way more complicated than that. First, I highly doubt his future was ever presented as an option. When you're raised to believe "you'll do X, Y and Z" it's hard to get out of that way of thinking. I never thought I had any other option but to go away to a 4 year school, because I was told I had no other option but to go away to a 4 year school by my parents. None of the other things I could have done even occurred to me at that age. I was gonna do this and that's just the way it was. Now, my situation wasn't quite like Logan's or anything--I got to pick my job and major and such, but if I had wanted to join the military or something I don't know what would have happened. 

 

I also think cutting ties with your family is way harder than you're making it sound. Let's not forget that Lorelai ran away from home. Not something a teenager would typically think of doing. It's a big deal and hard to do something like that. 

 

I just think the "why didn't he just walk away from it, he shouldn't have gone to Yale if he didn't want to join the family business" argument really simplifies and glosses over how challenging and hard those things are to do. Making the choice to cut your family out of your life is a huge deal and I don't think it's something any 18 year old can reasonably be asked to do--especially when you've been raised to think this is your one option, this is what you do. 

[Eyes High]

I guess I think it's way more complicated than that. First, I highly doubt his future was ever presented as an option. When you're raised to believe "you'll do X, Y and Z" it's hard to get out of that way of thinking.

It wasn't hard for Lorelai to get out of that way of thinking when push came to shove, and Logan's just as or even smarter than Lorelai.

 

I also think cutting ties with your family is way harder than you're making it sound. Let's not forget that Lorelai ran away from home. Not something a teenager would typically think of doing. It's a big deal and hard to do something like that.

Logan wouldn't have had to "run away from home." He would have been 18 when push came to shove on the Yale issue and an adult, unencumbered by dependents, and free to strike out on his own without worrying about what would happen to his child.

 

he didn't seem to be interested in anything but partying and enjoying life. It's not like he had a passionate desire to be an artist, ornithologist, or yoga instructor, nor did he go out of his way to cultivate a career/life path that wasn't tied to the world his parents lived in

The only passionate desire Logan ever evinced as far as I can tell was "partying and enjoying life." Otherwise put, his only hobby and interest was being a useless piece of shit. Not surprising for a wealthy asshole, but there you have it.

 

I just think the "why didn't he just walk away from it, he shouldn't have gone to Yale if he didn't want to join the family business" argument really simplifies and glosses over how challenging and hard those things are to do. Making the choice to cut your family out of your life is a huge deal and I don't think it's something any 18 year old can reasonably be asked to do--especially when you've been raised to think this is your one option, this is what you do.

First of all, Logan's smart enough to know he has many options, whatever he was "raised to think." Turning his back on his family wasn't unthinkable for Lorelai; there's no reason to think it would be something that would never occur to Logan when it had occurred to Lorelai. Given all his bitching about Mitchum, the suggestion that it never occurred to him that he had a choice is absurd. He had a choice, just as Lorelai had a choice. That he chose otherwise is on him.

 

Second of all, even assuming it was too hard for him to do, as you claim, and which I don't accept for the reasons I've stated (it certainly wasn't too hard for Lorelai), Logan should have accepted his lot with maturity and grace, instead of going through the motions of going along with it, lashing out in the most juvenile and passive-aggressive fashion imaginable, acting in a way that would sabotage his ability to prepare to succeed Mitchum, and then acting like a victim when he inevitably failed. He acted like a weakling and a coward and had the gall to act like he was the injured party, accepting his Yale education as if it was his birthright, shitting all over his prospects for succeeding Mitchum by partying and fucking around, all the while complaining about how awful his life was. Fuck him.

 

You seem to be advocating for Logan's right to accept a free education premised on fulfilling a family obligation (knowing full well the nature and extent of this obligation), fuck around at university in a way that will do serious damage to his ability to prepare to fulfill that obligation, do any number of juvenile, passive-aggressive things as a way of expressing his frustration with that obligation (drinking, partying, silly stunts) while taking no steps to address his frustrations in a productive or proactive way, fail at fulfilling the obligation due to his lack of preparation and self-sabotage, throw the mother of all tantrums, whine the whole fucking time about how hard done by he is in the affair and what a victim he is, and still claim our sympathy for his devastatingly tragic "plight." Sorry, that's just completely nonsensical. Logan is a weakling, a coward, and a child at heart (which sounds an awful lot like another character in GG, and I doubt the similarities are coincidental), who was the architect of whatever misfortune he experienced in this respect and unworthy of anyone's sympathy. Fuck him.

 

Now, if  Mitchum had pulled a bait and switch by luring Logan along the garden path with promises that he could do whatever he wanted after Yale and that he should just have fun and enjoy his education and then springing the trap after graduation and insisting that Logan either follow Mitchum's career directives or repay the cost of Yale in full, Logan would be a much more sympathetic figure. That's not what happened, though. Logan has always been bitterly aware of what Yale represented, and he chose it anyway despite that awareness.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[photo fox]

Maybe Logan was afraid all of the potting sheds with kindly owners were taken.

 

Not trying to be flippant, but Lorelai got very, very lucky, in addition to working hard.  Most teenage moms/runaways don't have nearly such a nice ending to their stories.

[brightside]

Yeah, I think this debate is pretty fruitless. I just don't agree. That's why this is the UO thread.

 

 

First of all, Logan's smart enough to know he has many options, whatever he was "raised to think." Turning his back on his family wasn't unthinkable for Lorelai; there's no reason to think it would be something that would never occur to Logan when it had occurred to Lorelai. Given all his bitching about Mitchum, the suggestion that it never occurred to him that he had a choice is absurd. He had a choice, just as Lorelai had a choice. That he chose otherwise is on him.

 

Okay I take issue with this. I didn't think I had options. I didn't think I had a choice. 18 may be legally an adult, but it's really really freaking young. He had no skills, had never had a job (I'm assuming). I don't think it's crazy to think he thought it was his only option. 

 

Logan and Lorelai aren't quite the same. Lorelai knew from the time she was little she didn't want that lifestyle--Logan didn't. Logan wasn't sitting in his room angry at the life he was living. It's very possible he didn't even know that he didn't want to be in the family business. Also, from what we saw, Logan didn't have a bad relationship with his family. He clearly was close with Honor, we never heard about any disagreements with his mother, his grandfather sent him books and such. His only issue seemed to be business related with his dad--Lorelai didn't not have the same relationship with her parents. 

 

 

 

Maybe Logan was afraid all of the potting sheds with kindly owners were taken.

Not trying to be flip, but Lorelai got very, very lucky, in addition to working hard.  Most teenage moms/runaways don't have nearly such a nice ending to their stories.

 

Ha! So true. Even just moving costs a lot of money! If Logan was cut off, it's not like he'd have money for a moving truck, a deposit, or even a car. He'd literally have nothing. Choosing to have nothing is way harder than choosing a job that's at least 4 years in the future. When you're 18 4 years can feel like a lifetime.

 

EDIT: Also, I'm not arguing for Logan's right to just accept things and then spend his life partying and complaining or whatever. I'm just arguing that these choices aren't as black and white as being presented. They are not easy choices and acting like they are is overly simplistic. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by brightside

[Melancholy]

I mostly agree with brightside. I don't think providing for your child through college is a business arrangement, where a fabulously wealthy family doesn't have to put their son through school if he doesn't agree to their chosen career plan. Fuck the Huntzbergers, frankly. By the early 2000s when GG aired, it was universally understood that whatever your plans, going to college was crucial preparedness for a high paying white collar job. Middle class and poor parents around the country sacrifice and scrimp to pay for their kids' college, especially if they've gotten into an Ivy League university. Lorelai was ready to defer her dreams of owning an inn, even after her last dream job just burned down, to put Rory through Yale, whether she'd be pursuing a low-paying, some parents would argue unrealistic dream of journalism. The Huntzbergers probably spent a year's tuition at Yale for. I dunno, chartering their own yacht for a three week vacation along the French Riviera or on a Porsche for the motor pool can be all four years at Yale. When you're that rich, it's a moral obligation to give your child that crucial opportunity of college, as far as I'm concerned. This isn't a contract. It's a question of whether you want to give your child every opportunity in a competitive world, when other parents are doing the same. Of course, it's a different story for parents who can't afford it or incur serious hardship to pay sticker price for Yale. They don't have a similar obligation to their kids as wealthy parents. For them, it's a tragedy that government/the university can't make college tuition affordable for everyone. 

 

However, at the same time, I think this is the point but it isn't at the same time. As I wrote earlier: 

 

IMO, Logan was long aware that he'd need to join the family business upon his graduation from Yale, probably with a summer to relax afterward. As I understood it, the biggest tension between Logan and Mitchum was that Mitchum thought Logan's work to prepare to run the family business should start as early as possible and certainly by his later college years. Meanwhile, Logan was running with the "Once you graduate from college, you'll work for the family" rule to infer that Logan had a license to party non-stop until that happened, and even then, Logan was a little stuck on EVENTUALLY you know, after the Asia trip with Rory over the summer and goodness knows what else if Mitchum gave him that inch.

 

Like on one hand, I don't even think that it was a matter of a contract one way or another. Logan didn't intentionally go through college looking to renig on a promise to succeed Mitchum. He intended to do so. Also, this wasn't some sympathetic plot as HeySandyStrange mentions where Logan really had a burning desire to be a teacher or nurse or Yale-educated plumber but his family forced him into controlling a multi-billion dollar media empire. No, if Logan wanted to do anything, it was to be a businessman big shot in the media world of riches but he just didn't want to work for it. Moreover, I'm willing to bet that I don't think Shira and Mitchum missed or regretted the money they spent on Logan's education. They probably didn't even regret the money they spent on his luxuries either, except probably in a moral rot "I spent thousands of dollars decorating her sex house, giving her everything she needed to waste her life" kind of way. However, I doubt they missed the money or wanted Logan to go to a state school or eat in the dining hall with the commoners if he wasn't going into the family business. They feel the responsibility of the super-rich to give their children every material possession, even the disappointment-children. I'm sure they consider the money they spent worth it for the peace of mind that even if Logan washed out of the family business, at least he has a Yale degree to keep him in the vicinity of respectable and frankly, to have even more options for prosperity and career options that play a role in happiness since I do believe that Mitchum, certainly, and probably Shira loved Logan. 

 

However, at the same time, I do think Logan was poorly raised and his college behavior is a product of that. Sure, he had an aptitude and interest in his father's profession. However, it was destructive to basically tell him that this is the only thing that he'll be allowed to do going into college. Parents shouldn't do that to their kids. They raised Logan to believe he had little freedom and possibilities but was just entitled to a certain very specific lifestyle. The Huntzbergers crushed any other dreams, even though a lot of that involved buying their kid off, and then, they were surprised that they had a son without his own independent ambitions who still resented how he was forced into a career path. IMO, it's worse than Richard and Emily who IMO pre-pregnancy would have supported Lorelai in any career choice as long as it was prestigious and credited their name and even post-pregnancy, still wanted Lorelai to do whatever she wanted career wise and were still willing to support her and Rory even though she refused to marry Christopher. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Melancholy