Season 6: Speculation

[Love]

Going back to the first 2 episodes of the series, I'm still of the belief that it has to mean something that Jon was the only "Stark" sibling to have any scenes with all Starks (minus Sansa) plus Jaime, plus Tyrion. I just don't know what it means.

[GrailKing]

I'd agree if not for the fact that the Starks will be re-taking Winterfell this season. You know the place with an intact Weirwood and Godswood and, according to legends (and if this story is showing anything its that most legends are true) built by the same guy who built The Wall that held back to the Others for thousands of years. We've already seen wights explode just trying to enter an area under the protection of a Weirwood so my gut tells me that whoever is holed up in Winterfell when the Others arrive in earnest will actually be the SAFEST people in all of Westeros.

 

There's also just the laws of narrative structure which require a story to end where it began in earnest... which is Winterfell. I don't think its an accident that, according to some legends Winterfell got its name because it was the place that Winter (i.e. the Others) Fell (i.e. were defeated) in the Battle for Dawn. If anyplace is going to be the last stand of Men against the Darkness its going to be at Winterfell... so again, anyone inside those walls are far more likely to survive than anywhere else because it will be the absolute last place that will be breached.

 

Also, Bittersweet doesn't mean "all is misery and woe" it just means the victory was hard-fought and costly... which it already has been to extremes for the Starks. Ned, Cat and Robb are already certainly dead. Rickon is likely to be dead this season/the next book. Arya will probably either die near the end of the story as well or have to go off and become the new Night Queen (and thus leave the realms of Men entirely). That leaves a crippled Bran who may never leave the cave he's in (or choose to go back when its all over), Jon and Sansa as the only Stark survivors and by the times all over they'll all have gone through traumas that make what Ned's generation went through in Robert's Rebellion look like a stroll in the park. There's just not too much you can do to the Starks at this point and still claim the ending is bittersweet and not outright nihilistic.

 

My hunch is that Rickon's death will be the darkness before the dawn as the Starks start to turn the tide and win back what has been lost while Arya will probably be the final sacrifice that seals the deal on the Stark's resurgence.

 

One other point on Sansa's death 'foreshadowing'... the giant prophecy is that she'll slay the giant and put his head on a pike outside Winterfell and Cersei's demands for her head on a spike aren't foreshadowing at all (well, maybe ironically to Littlefinger if he's the giant/titan). Similarly, while you've got the prophecy that all things tied to magic will die out in time, the story also went out of its way to kill off Sansa's connection to the magic of the North when Ned killed Lady... and not just killed, killed with a sword that had been forged using magical fire (i.e. the antithesis of ice magic). Far from foreshadowing her death, Ned might have actually spared Sansa the fate that's slowly befallen the rest of his children by cutting off her ties to magic (by the same token, if R_L=J is true then Jon is neither fire nor ice either and either his balance of the two forces or the two cancelling each other out in him is probably the reason he'll be so damned important).

 

In other words, there really AREN'T any real elements foreshadowing Sansa's death in the books or the show. The only character I think is safer will be Jon, because there's no point to killing him off again, even at the climax of the story because we've already seen the effects of his death once already and Tyrion, because its Tyrion. Frankly, Dany and Arya have far more death omens hanging over their heads when it comes to resolving this story and the only question with Cersei is WHEN not if she's dying (my hunch is season seven, just before Dany reaches Kings Landing).

 

The Dunk & Egg stories and the tale of Bael the Bard refer to at least two separate incidents when the Stark line continued through a female member. The Stark name is so prestigious in the North that either the husband took it himself or the children retained the mother's surname. There's no reason for GRRM to include those stories if he didn't intend to make use of them again. My personal hunch is that we'll eventually see both versions of this decent happen together with the Stark dynasty re-established via a political marriage between Jon Stark (i.e. son taking mother's surname) and Sansa (i.e. continuance through the female line), thus appeasing both the Northern lords who want a male heir and those who want to ensure that Ned's grandson eventually inherits Winterfell.

Everything you say I've also said as far as Sansa and magic, etc. where I differ is along with her being separated from magic, her wolf was more or less sacrificed and I added as a crackpot that Sansa would sacrifice her chance for happiness to save the realm from the NK by becoming his bride as I think somewhere in the past the Starks intermarried not just with the COF but possibly the Others ( many many others brought forth this idea) I looked at the pomegranate scene with LF and though of the Hades and Persephone tie in.

 

As for Arya I think she dies or fakes her death and becomes no one, foreshadowing in the books comes from Jon saying they find her body in the spring with needle frozen in her hand, in the show it may have been foreshadowed when Juqin  took the poison and Arya peels the faces ending with hers.

Then again as I say she fakes her death swaps faces but the reader will know she lives as she doesn't leave Needle.

[GrailKing]

Going back to the first 2 episodes of the series, I'm still of the belief that it has to mean something that Jon was the only "Stark" sibling to have any scenes with all Starks (minus Sansa) plus Jaime, plus Tyrion. I just don't know what it means.

Theory is

Sansa and Jon marry as cousins if his name turns out not to be Stark, but Targaryen, came from a synopsis by GRRM when pitching his trilogy, the difference is in his synopsis it was Jon and Arya, but people believe Jon and Arya are to close for it; where Jon and Sansa while close, they tend to be more distant

.

[SeanC]

As for Arya I think she dies or fakes her death and becomes no one, foreshadowing in the books comes from Jon saying they find her body in the spring with needle frozen in her hand, in the show it may have been foreshadowed when Juqin  took the poison and Arya peels the faces ending with hers.

Then again as I say she fakes her death swaps faces but the reader will know she lives as she doesn't leave Needle.

Arya can't become No One and doesn't want to; she's a Stark, and that's the whole point of the story.

[GrailKing]

Arya can't become No One and doesn't want to; she's a Stark, and that's the whole point of the story.

That may be true Sean, but GRRM put the thoughts in there for us to speculate on, this is just one of many thoughts about each Stark with small bites of foreshadowing for each .

 

Like Sansa can't go full evil like Cersei, because it's not her nature, yet he put stuff there to give us pause.

 

Oh and you know I'm team Sansa and Team Stark, I just like to play Devil's advocate.

Edited April 14, 2016 by GrailKing

[ElizaD]

I don't remember if I'd ever heard about the theory that Bloodraven still has Dark Sister and will give it to Bran's group, but now that it's been pointed out in the speculation about the Meera trailer shot I hope it happens. Could be useful when the White Walkers attack them.

[GrailKing]

And the other part to that is Shiera Seastar is Milisandre, lover and half sister to Brynden Rivers AKA Bloodraven.

Noticed that Arya has mentioned Dark Sister to Tywin in show.

[Oscirus]

I doubt the writers would use winterfell's ownership as a source of conflict. Jon Snow is on the night's watch, so I doubt he's even thinking about Winterfell other then to hope that his siblings are alive and well.

 

Here's my likely way out there speculation for the end, just because.

 

Bittersweet, ultimately, Dany completes her quest to regain her throne, she realizes that there's a more worthy person to place there (more on that later) so she reluctantly gives up her quest and returns back across the sea where she's needed more.

 

Arya ultimately takes over Jacquen's place but not before she says a final goodbye to her family.

 

I think RIckon is this season's Bronn. The person that everybody thinks is going to die but who actually doesn't die.  I hypothesize that his placement at the head of the line in the king's arrival scene foreshadows his eventual becoming the head of Winterfell.

 

Bran is hard to tell. I suspect his true purpose has yet to be revealed yet, but I'd guess that he'll be the narrator by the show's end. To what purpose? I have no idea.

 

Little Finger is the valonquar who eventually chokes the life out of Cersei. Probably uses the "power is power" quote against her while he's doing it. He eventually unites with the Tyrells, becomes one of the big bads in the final season and a war breaks out in the Vale.

 

Cersei  kills Tommen when she falsely suspects they're in danger again.

 

Jamie heroic sacrifices himself  in one of the upcoming wars, reconciles with Tyrion and finally earns a greater write up in the kings guard book.

 

Brienne becomes kings guard.

 

Davos becomes hand of the king.

 

Snow resumes his duty as head of the night's watch after successfully uniting the others with those behind the wall and repelling the white walkers.

 

Tyrion becomes convinced to become the king and Sansa becomes the queen in a unification of two warring houses which symbolizes the unification of the kingdom in general.

 

Now watch a bunch of the people I listed die and my list ultimately be used as toilet paper :p

[SeanC]

Arya ultimately takes over Jacquen's place but not before she says a final goodbye to her family.

The whole point of the Arya-as-trainee story is that she's incapable of being a Faceless Man, because she's a Stark.

 

Little Finger is the valonquar who eventually chokes the life out of Cersei.

Littlefinger doesn't have any siblings.

Edited April 17, 2016 by SeanC

[Oscirus]

The whole point of the Arya-as-trainee story is that she's incapable of being a Faceless Man, because she's a Stark.

 

I see the point being that Arya sold her soul to the devil. She doesn't have a choice in the matter. I don't see the faceless men as an organization where one an leave after they join.

 

Littlefinger doesn't have any siblings.

 

True, if the Valanquor refers to an actual little brother then it can't be Littlefinger.  However, if it's just a ceremonial name, then Littlefinger could still be applicable since that's how Cat referred to him.

[SeanC]

I see the point being that Arya sold her soul to the devil. She doesn't have a choice in the matter. I don't see the faceless men as an organization where one an leave after they join.

She hasn't joined, though.  She's an initiate.

[Avaleigh]

How is Arya not a Faceless Man if the kindly man isn't telling her that she's lying anymore about being no one? And she's at the point where she's wearing different faces. When does it become official? I can't exactly see these people having a graduation ceremony. She was also already given the chance to leave. 

 

I also got the impression that it's mafia like in terms of not being able to leave once they allow you to join. 

[SeanC]

How is Arya not a Faceless Man if the kindly man isn't telling her that she's lying anymore about being no one? And she's at the point where she's wearing different faces. When does it become official? I can't exactly see these people having a graduation ceremony. She was also already given the chance to leave. 

 

I also got the impression that it's mafia like in terms of not being able to leave once they allow you to join. 

She stole the mask, and because she wasn't a Faceless Man it made her ill, as Jaqen noted.

[Avaleigh]

I thought the kindly man gave her the face of an ugly girl. Also, isn't there a line where he suggests that she'll have a prettier face next time? The implication being that she's going to wear more faces like other Faceless Men.

 

I actually agree that Arya will never lose her identity I just disagree that she's just going to be able to quit without them retaliating. I don't think she'll ever be free of them. I think if she wanted to leave then she should have gone when they were still giving her the option. I think there are going to be consequences to her changing her mind and going all rogue assassin especially

if she ends up killing on of their members.

[OhOkayWhat]

I thought the kindly man gave her the face of an ugly girl. Also, isn't there a line where he suggests that she'll have a prettier face next time? The implication being that she's going to wear more faces like other Faceless Men.

 

 

She stole the mask, and because she wasn't a Faceless Man it made her ill, as Jaqen noted.

 

 

SeanC is right, she was not "ready" to use the mask and it made her ill.

 

 

I actually agree that Arya will never lose her identity I just disagree that she's just going to be able to quit without them retaliating.I don't think she'll ever be free of them. I think if she wanted to leave then she should have gone when they were still giving her the option. I think there are going to be consequences to her changing her mind and going all rogue assassin especially

if she ends up killing on of their members.

 

Yes, I agree with you, I think in the show, that will happen. They will not like if she try to run away and leave them. But I disagree with the whole "I don't think she'll ever be free of them" thing, I think she will find a way to leave them behind. Also I think the Arya main theme in the show is the darkness growing inside her and I think that will be the main challenge for her character: being able to reject that darkness.

Edited April 18, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[bunnyblue]

 

I actually agree that Arya will never lose her identity I just disagree that she's just going to be able to quit without them retaliating. I don't think she'll ever be free of them. I think if she wanted to leave then she should have gone when they were still giving her the option. I think there are going to be consequences to her changing her mind and going all rogue assassin especially

if she ends up killing on of their members.

 

I agree. I fear there will be consequences for Arya when she leaves the Faceless Men. Jaqen's line from the trailer "a girl has been given a second chance, there will not be a third" sounds like a clear threat to me. And that's just if she fails her next mission. Imagine what they'll do to her if she escapes, kills the Waif, and returns to Westeros. There's no way the FM will let that slide. Plus, she knows many of their secrets. She will be punished, probably when she (and we) least expect it. 

[Boudicea]

Shrug, I don't really have a (shaggy)dog in this fight. My point was Rickon's death is not necessarily bad storytelling by either D&D or GRRM.

 

You kind of get the feeling that Rickon needs to do something, but he is just to young in the books. If Rickon is not going to do something, then something has to happen with Rickon. He is in somewhat of a similar position then Shireen, character wise. Many people also thought that Shireen would survive to continue the Baratheon line, but she was killed. 

 

If Rickon gets killed it would open up the succession in the North, so his death would not be about shock value. Keeping Rickon hanging around in the story as a spare is not exactly great storytelling either. It also does not seem like something GRRM would do, there needs to be some kind of role for Rickon other then being a spare Stark. 

 

 

I'd agree if not for the fact that the Starks will be re-taking Winterfell this season. You know the place with an intact Weirwood and Godswood and, according to legends (and if this story is showing anything its that most legends are true) built by the same guy who built The Wall that held back to the Others for thousands of years. We've already seen wights explode just trying to enter an area under the protection of a Weirwood so my gut tells me that whoever is holed up in Winterfell when the Others arrive in earnest will actually be the SAFEST people in all of Westeros.

 

There's also just the laws of narrative structure which require a story to end where it began in earnest... which is Winterfell. I don't think its an accident that, according to some legends Winterfell got its name because it was the place that Winter (i.e. the Others) Fell (i.e. were defeated) in the Battle for Dawn. If anyplace is going to be the last stand of Men against the Darkness its going to be at Winterfell... so again, anyone inside those walls are far more likely to survive than anywhere else because it will be the absolute last place that will be breached.

 

In other words, there really AREN'T any real elements foreshadowing Sansa's death in the books or the show. The only character I think is safer will be Jon, because there's no point to killing him off again, even at the climax of the story because we've already seen the effects of his death once already and Tyrion, because its Tyrion. Frankly, Dany and Arya have far more death omens hanging over their heads when it comes to resolving this story and the only question with Cersei is WHEN not if she's dying (my hunch is season seven, just before Dany reaches Kings Landing).

 

The Dunk & Egg stories and the tale of Bael the Bard refer to at least two separate incidents when the Stark line continued through a female member. The Stark name is so prestigious in the North that either the husband took it himself or the children retained the mother's surname. There's no reason for GRRM to include those stories if he didn't intend to make use of them again. My personal hunch is that we'll eventually see both versions of this decent happen together with the Stark dynasty re-established via a political marriage between Jon Stark (i.e. son taking mother's surname) and Sansa (i.e. continuance through the female line), thus appeasing both the Northern lords who want a male heir and those who want to ensure that Ned's grandson eventually inherits Winterfell.

 

I also think that Winterfell will be safe from the White Walkers, Winterfell and the Wall was build by Brandon the Builder. Just like the Wall is guarded with magic Winterfell could also be guarded by magic. 

 

But I dont think the final battle will be at Winterfell. The White Walkers needs to reach the South, otherwise what is the point of them being such a big threat? If they just stay in the North then they will be a Northern problem. I think there has been too much of an emphasis on Southerners who thinks that the Wall and the Nights Watch is a joke, or who thinks that the White Walkers did not exist.  The White Walkers really needs to actually terrorize the South.

 

In the House of the Undying Dany sees a vision of herself fighting a battle on the Trident, I think that is where the last stand will be, if there is a final big battle.  

 

As for Sansa surviving until the end, I am 50/50 on her surviving. In GRRM's original outline Sansa was not one the characters who survived until the end. Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya and Bran were named as characters who survived until the end. A lot of GRRM's story has changed from the original outline, but I am not so sure that the ordinal outline of the main characters have changed that much. 

 

It is much more difficult to predict who would survive after the battle or the White Walker threat. The only one who is likely guaranteed to survive is Bran. Everyone always thinks that Tyrion will survive but I am not 100% sure of that either, Tyrion killed his father and his lover, at some point I think those deaths will come back to him. I think all of the characters who has committed some of the greatest sins such as betraying guest rights or kinslaying, will punished, in some manner. Therefore I am not 100% sure that Tyrion will survive after the White Walkers. Arya could die there is theory about Arya finding her pack after death by warging into Nymeria. Jon could die during the battle of the White Walkers, and Dany as well. Or they could just as likely all survive, but they will be broken people.

 

Sansa has one big mark against her surviving the series, and that is her purpose in the fight against the White Walkers. As the final act of the story approaches we are moving more towards the White Walkers and away from the political aspects of the story. All of the other Stark siblings have spent their time honing their skills in preparation for the fight against the White Walkers.  It is difficult to see what Sansa will do, or what her purpose would be in the fight against the White Walkers. 

 

 

My main point is Jon is not one to become Lord of Winterfell before his trueborn siblings he has constantly refused Winterfell when offered and even said that Winterfell belongs to Sansa. There is no conflict there.

 

There likely would not be conflict between them directly, but succession is also dependent on support. 

 

These are some interesting times. The Northern Lords might be divided about the succession in the North. Some of them might support Sansa and some of them might support Jon.  

 

Jon needs the North to stand together to fight against the White Walkers.

 

 

I doubt the writers would use winterfell's ownership as a source of conflict. Jon Snow is on the night's watch, so I doubt he's even thinking about Winterfell other then to hope that his siblings are alive and well.

 

Tyrion becomes convinced to become the king and Sansa becomes the queen in a unification of two warring houses which symbolizes the unification of the kingdom in general.

 

 

Sansa and Tyrion has no claim to the throne. The war between the Starks and the Lannisters are over, any remaining trace of that rivalry will die with Cercei. Tyrion is not exactly popular within Westeros, he is known as a kinslayer. Even if he does something good in the fight against the White Walkers it would not change those facts completely. If Westeros needs any unification it is much more likely that we will see a union between the Targaryens and the Baratheons, or a union between the North and the South which would be a Stark and Targaryen, or perhaps a Tyrell and a Stark. Or some union with Dorne. Having Sansa and Tyrion as rulers in the end makes no sense. The only way for them to become a Queen or a King would be to marry a King or a Queen, or through conquest which also seem highly unlikely. The closest thing that could apply is Sansa as the Queen in the North.       

 

Jon needs the North to stand together in order to be able to put up some defense against the White Walkers. The Nights Watch is done, the Wildlings will kill a lot of Nights Watch members, and when the Wall falls the Nights Watch will be completely wiped out.

That is why Jon really needs the North, he needs what is left of the Northern army and needs to be able to command the the Northern army.

 

The future of the North is filled with looming battles. The Boltons and their allies needs to be eliminated, there is also a White Walker threat and harsh winter conditions. These are really difficult and extraordinary times. Rickon can not be the King in the North or the Lord of Winterfell under these conditions, so he will need  a regent. Or he could be killed. 

 

Sansa is next in the line of succession, she is the first and true born daughter of Ned Stark. Naturally she will have some support. But she has also spent the last few years in the South, she does not really understand the North. She does not understand true winter conditions and she has no battle experience. She was also married to a Lannister, and a Bolton in the show.

 

Jon is a bastard, it is likely that many Northern Lords will not like his association with the Wildlings and he was in the Nights Watch. So he does have a lot against him. But he does understand winter, he has experience in being a leader and being a battle commander. 

In the books in makes even more sense. The North and the South have different politics and philosophies. He looks like Ned. He was taught about politics and battles alongside Robb. He has an excellent understanding of Northern politics, and Robb's will is floating around somewhere. 

I could see that there might be some Lords who would support Jon over Sansa. If Jon's parentage is somehow made public then Jon and Sansa might be pressured towards a political marriage. 

 

I think the show could or will go in a different direction with this. I could see Sansa becoming the ruler in the North, show Sansa is more assertive then book Sansa and she is already in the North.

I dont think Sansa will become the Queen in the North or the Warden of the North in the books. 

Her trajectory or story so far has really nothing to do with being a ruler. She is learning from Littlefinger, he is not ruler or leader. He is someone who will work more from the shadows behind the ruler. Sansa is learning how to move these pieces from behind the leader, she is learning more about Southern style politics. Dany and Jon for example has arcs that are more geared towards being rulers, they are constantly learning from different advisers and mentors, and they are identified or placed in the position of a leader almost right from the start of the story.

If Sansa where to become the Oueen in the North or the Warden of the North it would not earned through her experiences within the story. Ruling is very difficult, that seems to be a consistent theme within the story. We have seen others like Robb, Cercei, Jon and Dany becoming rulers and we have seen them struggling, and we have seen them wrestling with the most difficult or impactful decisions. Sansa does not have this experience, and she really hasn't made any big decisions or decisions that has a big impact on others. 

If Sansa does become the Queen in the North within the show then we would have to see some continuation of this theme about ruling, it has to be really difficult for her, or otherwise it would lack continuity with the other the characters.  

[SeanC]

But I dont think the final battle will be at Winterfell. The White Walkers needs to reach the South, otherwise what is the point of them being such a big threat? If they just stay in the North then they will be a Northern problem. I think there has been too much of an emphasis on Southerners who thinks that the Wall and the Nights Watch is a joke, or who thinks that the White Walkers did not exist.  The White Walkers really needs to actually terrorize the South.

I don't think the final battle being at Winterfell precludes the White Walkers getting further south.

 

As for Sansa surviving until the end, I am 50/50 on her surviving. In GRRM's original outline Sansa was not one the characters who survived until the end. Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Arya and Bran were named as characters who survived until the end. A lot of GRRM's story has changed from the original outline, but I am not so sure that the ordinal outline of the main characters have changed that much.

On that point, the outline identifies those five as the main characters we follow all the way through.  That doesn't indicate that everyone else dies -- it's not even really clear if Sansa was a main character/POV at that point.  It's possible to imply from the outline that ur-Sansa was killed by ur-Jaime, but it doesn't really clarify that point (for all we know, seeing as Sansa in the finished product seems cursed with everyone not a blood relative wanting to bang her, he decided to make her his bride after murdering her son).

 

Sansa has one big mark against her surviving the series, and that is her purpose in the fight against the White Walkers. As the final act of the story approaches we are moving more towards the White Walkers and away from the political aspects of the story. All of the other Stark siblings have spent their time honing their skills in preparation for the fight against the White Walkers.  It is difficult to see what Sansa will do, or what her purpose would be in the fight against the White Walkers.

It's not like there wouldn't be politics involved in the Long Night.  I would agree that it seems exceptionally unlikely that Sansa is going to have a major part in the magic stuff relating to the White Walkers, but I don't think that in any way precludes her having a story there.  If you followed that logic, she wouldn't have had any chapters during the Battle of the Blackwater either, but GRRM told half the battle from her POV.  I don't think it's really in keeping with how the books have been written to date to just abandon everyone who can't ride a dragon or warg toward the end.

[Eyes High]

On that point, the outline identifies those five as the main characters we follow all the way through.  That doesn't indicate that everyone else dies -- it's not even really clear if Sansa was a main character/POV at that point.  It's possible to imply from the outline that ur-Sansa was killed by ur-Jaime, but it doesn't really clarify that point (for all we know, seeing as Sansa in the finished product seems cursed with everyone not a blood relative wanting to bang her, he decided to make her his bride after murdering her son).

 

It seems very strongly hinted that Sansa dies in the outline, especially since she pretty much disappears from the outline partway through, and it seems hinted that Outline Jaime does the deed--even assuming Outline Jaime wouldn't try to have her killed along with her son, what was she going to do when Outline Jaime had her son killed, sit on her hands? Seems like an Elia situation to me--but at any rate, she's inarguably a second-tier character in the outline compared to the five characters GRRM considers the core characters (Jon, Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany) around which his generational saga would revolve. Doesn't mean that she's doomed in the current ASOIAF, necessarily, but it rules out her having a major role in the ending of the books, since GRRM has said that he's known that ending since 1991, and since he has also said on multiple occasions that he's always known what Arya's, Bran's, Jon's, etc. storylines were going to be through the series. That leaves Sansa out. Sansa's endgame being Queen of Westeros is dead in the water. Sansa's endgame being Queen in the North, too, in all likelihood. She might hold one or both of these positions in the series for a time, but she's not going to end up with either, no more than Tommen will end up on the Iron Throne despite holding it for a time.

 

I don't think it's really in keeping with how the books have been written to date to just abandon everyone who can't ride a dragon or warg toward the end.

"How the books have been written to date" is a poor measure of how the books will be written when the real war against the WW kicks into high gear, since the entire point of the political squabbles and battles as written to date is that they are merely a distraction from the real fight, where magic will be the most important currency.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

"How the books have been written to date" is a poor measure of how the books will be written when the real war against the WW kicks into high gear, since the entire point of the political squabbles and battles as written to date is that they are merely a distraction from the real fight, where magic will be the most important currency.

Not in that sense.  All of the action at the Battle of the Blackwater are occurring in Tyrion's POVs (and Davos' one POV), which depict the actual battle, the generalship on the Lannister and Baratheon sides, etc.  And yet, almost half the POV chapters relating to Blackwater are from Sansa's POV, confined largely within Maegor's Holdfast.  Nothing of world-historical importance happens in those chapters, and yet, they exist.  They exist to tell Sansa's story, a sort of civilian/non-combatant POV, exploring that particular experience, advancing her interactions with various characters, etc. -- clearly, to the author, this has value and adds something to his narrative.  The Sansa of our hypothetical Book 7 will (presumably) be a much more experienced person and in a position to do more than huddle in a bunker listening to the rantings of a bitter drunk.  The Long Night will affect all of Westeros, not just a couple of people with magic powers.  Sansa is not Westeros' Ultimate Hero, anymore than she was in charge of the defence of King's Landing at the Blackwater; that doesn't make her irrelevant in either case.

 

and since he has also said on multiple occasions that he's always known what Arya's, Bran's, Jon's, etc. storylines were going to be through the series.

I don't think you can really take his statements that literally, seeing as ur-Arya's story is completely different from the Arya story he actually wrote.

Edited April 19, 2016 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

If Rickon dies I wonder if Sansa would sort of inherit Shaggydog and this would give her a direwolf again. The bond wouldn't be the same as the one she had with Lady but I still feel like she'd have the same sort of protection again. 

[SeanC]

If Rickon dies I wonder if Sansa would sort of inherit Shaggydog and this would give her a direwolf again. The bond wouldn't be the same as the one she had with Lady but I still feel like she'd have the same sort of protection again. 

Those supposed spoilers haven't said anything about Shaggydog either way.  Though if the Umbers turn on Rickon, I suspect poor Shaggy met the same fate as Grey Wind.

[ElizaD]

Sansa won't be saving the world but she can offer a "home front" look at how the new leaders try to help their people cope with winter and the war. Good people skills will still be useful: even if everyone sees that the White Walkers are their common enemy, there's going to be a lot of panicking and differences of opinion about what's the best thing to do, which will need to be dealt with so that the leaders can make the most of the resources they and their allies have. If the likes of Jon and Dany are busy running around with armies and confronting the White Walkers, someone will need to make decisions about everyday life.

 

If the Boltons have Rickon, Shaggydog has probably been killed already. I just hope we don't see Ramsay wearing him.

[CofCinci]

I'm more distressed over the thought of Ramsey killing the dog than shooting an arrow into Rickon.

[bunnyblue]

I'm more distressed over the thought of Ramsey killing the dog than shooting an arrow into Rickon.

 

LOL, I agree. But I really really really do not want Rickons to die. If Shaggydog must die, I don't want it depicted on screen. Bad enough we may have to watch Rickon suffer in the clutches of Ramsay.

[GrailKing]

If Rickon dies I wonder if Sansa would sort of inherit Shaggydog and this would give her a direwolf again. The bond wouldn't be the same as the one she had with Lady but I still feel like she'd have the same sort of protection again. 

If Rickon dies and Sansa gets Shaggy, I'm betting she will possibly die too, maybe not now but later.

My main reason for Sansa living and surviving is because she is no longer tied to magic, since Ned sacrificed/ killed Lady.

There is no room for magic in the world of men; so far every Stark that died had their wolf with them or near buy, (except Ned), Robb,Cat,and Jon if Rickon dies and his wolf also it adds to my theory, of course if and how Jon comes back could put a wrench in my theory.

[Hecate7]

I don't think Shaggy would recognize Sansa. I do think Shaggy will savage Ramsey, but I don't think he'll survive the season, and I don't think Rickon will either. Robb would not have died if he hadn't chained up Greywind. I'm not sure what to think of Ghost allowing Jon Snow to be murdered. Perhaps he was chained up at the time? Summer saved Bran. The wolves, IMO, are magically linked to their Starks and meant to protect them, and the magic grows stronger with time. Something's gone wrong with Nymeria, Lady, and Ghost, I believe. Why Ghost isn't quite the wolf he ought to be, I don't know.

[Chris24601]

Regarding Sansa playing a role in the endgame, I think its relevant to remember one of GRRM's critiques of TLotR was that despite being the future queen Gondor, Arwen barely appeared in the story at all (I believe it was a total of two brief scenes in the books).

 

So even if she's not magical in any way (indeed, I think having her ties to Northern magic severed with a magical sword linked to fire is actually one of the most important things about Sansa because it means she's not magically linked to either fire or ice) wouldn't it make sense from the perspective mentioned above for GRRM to give the future queen once the wars are done and the rebuilding begins her own PoV of what is occurring?

 

If true, then Queen Sansa, whom we have followed through the entire series, would be GRRM's version of "Arwen Done Right."

[Haleth]

I'm most upset that if Rickon dies the name Stark dies with him.  (Bran will never leave the cave.)  There will be no Stark at Winterfell unless Sansa's husband takes the name.

[SeanC]

I'm most upset that if Rickon dies the name Stark dies with him.  (Bran will never leave the cave.)  There will be no Stark at Winterfell unless Sansa's husband takes the name.

Women can pass on the family name in ASOIAF.  Lady Waynwood, Lady Oakheart, Lady Mormont, Lady Flint, etc.

[GrailKing]

Not to mention, it may have also happened in the past for House Stark.

[Eyes High]

I'm more distressed over the thought of Ramsey killing the dog than shooting an arrow into Rickon.

 

Didn't NCW say something back around Season 2 about how weird it was that fans were more distressed about Lady being killed than poor Mycah?

 

Regarding Sansa playing a role in the endgame, I think its relevant to remember one of GRRM's critiques of TLotR was that despite being the future queen Gondor, Arwen barely appeared in the story at all (I believe it was a total of two brief scenes in the books).

 

So even if she's not magical in any way (indeed, I think having her ties to Northern magic severed with a magical sword linked to fire is actually one of the most important things about Sansa because it means she's not magically linked to either fire or ice) wouldn't it make sense from the perspective mentioned above for GRRM to give the future queen once the wars are done and the rebuilding begins her own PoV of what is occurring?

 

If true, then Queen Sansa, whom we have followed through the entire series, would be GRRM's version of "Arwen Done Right."

 

Sansa was a minor character in the 1993 outline whose main character point is that she betrays her family, and GRRM has indicated he intends to stick with an ending he's known since 1991 and the endings for the core characters he's "always known." That doesn't scream endgame Queen Sansa. Rather, it suggests that whatever Sansa gets up to, she's not going to have a major role in the ending. If I had to guess, she either dies (although not until after Littlefinger has been taken down) or winds up running off with the Hound. I'm leaning towards the former these days.

 

I agree that GRRM would likely try to give the future endgame queen more of a role. However, this is far more likely to be Arya than Sansa. I strongly suspect that GRRM is going to give Arya everything Sansa wanted in AGOT. From the very first moment we meet Arya and Sansa, Arya is defending Jon (a prince masquerading as a bastard), and Sansa is all about Joffrey (a bastard masquerading as a prince). There's even that comment about bastards playing with princes, and Sansa telling Arya she'll have to call Sansa "Your Grace." It seems ripe for an ironic reversal of the kind GRRM loves, and there are hints: Ned telling Arya that she'll marry a king, Ned lamenting that he was never meant to be a "father to queens" (not queen), Arya naming her direwolf for a queen, etc. 

 

Also, in the original outline, at least two of the five characters stated to survive the saga were explicitly magical: Dany and Bran. (Bran and Arya also had direwolves in the outline, although it's not clear whether that bond was intended to be magical in 1993.) That doesn't point to an ending where there's no room for magic in the world.

 

I don't think you can really take his statements that literally, seeing as ur-Arya's story is completely different from the Arya story he actually wrote.

Outline Arya's big plot is falling passionately in love with Jon Snow, whereas ASOIAF Arya has been deaged by several years and has yet to hit puberty. Consequently, there's not that much that can be read into Outline Arya's story being different to date, since Outline Arya was older and ASOIAF Arya was way too young for the first few books to fall passionately in love with anyone. In fact, ASOIAF Arya's journey, taking her pretty much all over except to Jon, the person she's been desperately trying to reach, could wind up adding up to one big filler arc keeping her moving around until she can have the story she was always meant to have.

 

Interestingly, GRRM seemed very anxious to age up the kids and has been vocal about expressing his frustrations when it comes to the story going more slowly than he would like (thus the scrapped five-year time jump). Even more interestingly, GRRM made a comment in relation to the scrapped five year time jump about how these other developments wouldn't wait for Arya to hit puberty. Why is Arya hitting puberty so important from a storytelling perspective? Could it have something to do with the arc she had in the outline, perhaps? An arc that would require her by its nature to have hit puberty, even?

Edited April 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

Bran is the last Greenseer, he will eventually die and so will magic.

It started with Bran and Winterfell, it's going to end there also.

 

I think too much has changed since his outline, If Sansa dies, it will be for family, or to save her child if she has one.

[SeanC]

Outline Arya's big plot is falling passionately in love with Jon Snow, whereas ASOIAF Arya has been deaged by several years and has yet to hit puberty. Consequently, there's not that much that can be read into Outline Arya's story being different to date, since Outline Arya was older and ASOIAF Arya was way too young for the first few books to fall passionately in love with anyone. In fact, ASOIAF Arya's journey, taking her pretty much all over except to Jon, the person she's been desperately trying to reach, could wind up adding up to one big filler arc keeping her moving around until she can have the story she was always meant to have.

That seems to me to be exceptionally unlikely.  Ur-Arya came across like a standard tomboyish romantic lead whose story was pretty much all about a love triangle and then fighting north of the Wall, living among the Wildlings; current Arya is a deeply traumatized child soldier struggling with whether or not to join a death cult.  I don't subscribe at all to the semi-common notion that Arya is some irreversibly damaged killing machine who exists mainly to tidily resolve her list and then freeze to death in accordance with one random line Jon said in AGOT, but the leap between where she is now and some version of her outline story would be a pretty big one.

 

If GRRM really is still going for that outline story, I predict Ted/Robin levels of incredulity at this point.

[Eyes High]

That seems to me to be exceptionally unlikely.  Ur-Arya came across like a standard tomboyish romantic lead whose story was pretty much all about a love triangle and then fighting north of the Wall, living among the Wildlings; current Arya is a deeply traumatized child soldier struggling with whether or not to join a death cult.  I don't subscribe at all to the semi-common notion that Arya is some irreversibly damaged killing machine who exists mainly to tidily resolve her list and then freeze to death in accordance with one random line Jon said in AGOT, but the leap between where she is now and some version of her outline story would be a pretty big one.

 

If GRRM really is still going for that outline story, I predict Ted/Robin levels of incredulity at this point.

 

If Arya doesn't stick around the FM, and all indications are that she won't, the "death cult" part goes away and that storyline ends. (Realistically, I doubt the FM would allow Arya to say "Nah" and peace out with no hard feelings, but I'm guessing GRRM will contrive a way for this to happen in the books, much as he contrives a way for Tyrion to escape all the scrapes he gets into.) As for Arya, of course she's "deeply traumatized." The core five characters are all deeply traumatized in one way or another. It doesn't mean that they aren't allowed to have emotional arcs, or to have storylines about falling in love or wanting love. And there's no doubt in the books that however "deeply traumatized" Arya is, she loves Jon more than anything in the world and never stopped loving him. Even in AFFC, after she's been through all the truly horrific shit, she is sad to think of giving up Needle, but it's only when she thinks about Jon Snow messing her hair and calling her "little sister" that there are tears in her eyes. She also contemplates using Dareon to go to Eastwatch to find Jon but gives up that plan when she learns that he's a deserter. However deeply traumatized she is, she has feelings. The FM is a stopover for her, just like Essos is a stopover for Tyrion; it's a stopover with character development and Arya acquiring new skills, but it's a stopover nonetheless. Being traumatized doesn't stop the wheel from turning or emotional arcs from developing; if it did, we'd have to stop the series right here, since most of the main characters are survivors of some serious trauma.

 

ADWD made clear that Jon loves Arya more than anything in the world. He loves her so much he breaks his vows for her, something he refused to do even to help Robb avenge Ned. There are also ample indications that Jon would not be disturbed by Arya's killer instincts; he thinks Val is "lovely and lethal" and is not at all horrified or disgusted by her capacity for violence. (Ditto for the killer Ygritte.)

 

I suspect that there's still going to be a Jon/Arya love story. It was just put on hold, although not for much longer; Quentyn dreams of going back to Dorne and marrying Gwyneth Yronwood (who's all of 12 years old). GRRM's comment about wishing he could write a whole book about Arya having adventures in Braavos was telling. Braavos is a side story for Arya that gives GRRM a chance to flex his worldbuilding muscles. It is not and was never intended to be an end point for Arya.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Eyes High

[CofCinci]

I'm most upset that if Rickon dies the name Stark dies with him. (Bran will never leave the cave.) There will be no Stark at Winterfell unless Sansa's husband takes the name.

She could be pregnant with Ramsey's child and opt to give the Stark name to child.

[GrailKing]

She could be pregnant with Ramsey's child and opt to give the Stark name to child.

This may be her quandary to deal with, if she does keep the child or abort it, a half Stark half Bolton child more fodder for the fan base to fight over along with the Northern lords.

[Chris24601]

Yes, Eyes High, we know you believe in the original outline with all your heart. Others, including myself, find using the outline as evidence to be unconvincing, in large part because even in the very first book it was already deviating significantly from the details of the supposed outline (ex. Sansa didn't betray her family marry Joffrey and have a kid, Jamie has yet to kill Sansa's child and seize the Iron Throne for himself, Cat is not still fully alive north of the Wall with Arya, Dany is still nowhere near getting to Westeros, etc. etc.).

 

Some people try to stretch the pitch outline in order to claim its still relevant (ex. well, Sansa DID marry a Lannister... except that it was Tyrion, who was supposed to be in a love triangle with Arya in the outline and the marriage was never consummated the marriage so obviously no kid, but maybe she's going to betray her family and have a kid with Harry the Heir... yeah, that's still right in line with the outline). But its clear that even as early as the first book it had already veered completely off course from the outline presented.

 

Frankly, I think pitch outline is an interesting window into where GRRM's thinking was when he first started pitching the series to his publisher. But let's say he IS being truthful when he says things are still going the way he originally planned in an outline (just like George Lucas totally had the entire 9, no 3, no 6, wait I want to sell it for billions of dollars so 9, yes nine... or maybe 12 episodes of Star Wars all planned out from the start). We still don't know if THAT PARTICULAR OUTLINE that was leaked (as in, its not anything GRRM has ever put out there himself) is even the ACTUAL outline he is referring to following.

 

Even short stories go through multiple outlines before you reach the actual writing stage and the leaked outline was clearly one of the earliest versions as it was part of a pitch letter to his publisher and more about selling the concept than anything. The outline he's referring to still be on track with may be a completely different one where things happen very differently than the first one.

 

In fact, I'd argue that the outline he's referring to is not the leaked pitch outline is a certainty... no draft outline (i.e. the last outline before you start the actual writing itself) would have included pitch points to sell the publisher, it would simply lay out the structure of the story so the author could reference it efficiently.

 

What was leaked was a first draft, akin to Lucas' first draft of "The Star Wars" (i.e. the one where the main characters were the Jedi Kane Starkiller and his son Annakin who get pulled back into the war when a Sith Knight kills Kane's son Deak and Alderaan is the capitol of the Empire). Some names are the same, but many have completely different backgrounds and motivations, new characters were split off, added, deleted or swapped. There's no reason to expect the same thing didn't happen between the pitch outline (i.e. the leaked thing some claim is an inviolate road map to the rest of the series) and the final draft outline of this series.

 

And all of that is on the presumption that GRRM didn't just outright change things outright because they didn't work as well in the details as they did in the abstract. Indeed, I think you can actually see the point where GRRM changed gears with the start of AFfC because his original plan of a five-year gap to age up certain players doesn't work (and I don't buy for an instant that it was because the dragons wouldn't be the right size... they're fictional magical creatures, they can get as big as you need them as fast as you need them... the issue was that Arya and the other pre-teen children wouldn't be near old enough for what he wanted to do) and that's why Arya goes completely off the rails into a death cult on another continent while Sansa has fond thoughts of seeing Jon again and Jon has thoughts associating Sansa with Ygritte.

 

There's a reason D&D moved Sansa up North in advance of any movement by her book counterpart and why she and Jon are going to be the first Starks to reunite since the start of the series, while Arya will NOT reunite with any of her family this year (and with only 13-15 episodes left after that before the story ends entirely). That's because D&D know the current ending (as related to them by GRRM himself) and where the players need to be in order to sell that ending to general audiences (ex. it takes longer to sell a romantic relationship on screen than it does in a PoV narrated novel) and WE. DON'T.

[SeanC]

Indeed, I think you can actually see the point where GRRM changed gears with the start of AFfC because his original plan of a five-year gap to age up certain players doesn't work (and I don't buy for an instant that it was because the dragons wouldn't be the right size... they're fictional magical creatures, they can get as big as you need them as fast as you need them... the issue was that Arya and the other pre-teen children wouldn't be near old enough for what he wanted to do) and that's why Arya goes completely off the rails into a death cult on another continent while Sansa has fond thoughts of seeing Jon again and Jon has thoughts associating Sansa with Ygritte.

I don't think Jon/Arya was ever seriously in the cards in the series that GRRM actually wrote, let alone that he switched it all onto the other sister with AFFC/ADWD.  If that was what he was doing, it makes little sense to structure Jon's ADWD plot arc around trying to rescue fArya -- which you can read as a prelude to romantic love if you want, but I don't think it's anything other than a reminder of their deep, platonic bond, which has been a constant theme throughout the series.

[Haleth]

Lady Mormont

Of course she kept her name. Bears don't have surnames to pass down.

[Eyes High]

Arya goes completely off the rails into a death cult on another continent while Sansa has fond thoughts of seeing Jon again and Jon has thoughts associating Sansa with Ygritte.

 

Arya has fond thoughts of Jon--and vice versa--throughout the whole series. She makes several (thwarted) attempts to reach him. She takes a liking to Gendry because he reminds her of Jon (finishing sentences with her, e.g.). She hopes that Jon will want her even though no one else will. She remembers that Jon and Ned were the only ones who ever called her pretty. It is the thought of Jon that makes her weep at the thought of relinquishing Needle.

 

Sansa, on the other hand, has precisely one fond thought involving Jon: when Myranda brings up Jon. And in that moment, she realizes that she had not thought of Jon in ages. Meaning, she had forgotten about him altogether. (Compare this to someone like the Hound, whom Sansa thinks about in pretty much every single POV chapter of hers despite not having seen him since ACOK.) This was never true of Arya; Arya has never stopped not only thinking about Jon but also trying to reach him, even when she has supposedly committed to the FM. The passage with Sansa where she thinks of Jon--and to be clear, there's only the one--goes as follows:

 

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. But of course that could never be. Alayne Stone had no brothers, baseborn or otherwise.

Sansa doesn't miss Jon because she cares about him, but because he's the only family she has left, even if she views him as a second-tier sort of relative compared to her "real" brothers Robb, Bran and Rickon.

 

The bastard half-brother/real brother distinction highlights the difference between Sansa and Arya's relationships with Jon, actually. Remember part of Arya and Sansa's very first conversation in the books?

 

Sansa: [Jon] gets jealous because he's a bastard.

Arya (loudly): He's our brother.

Sansa: Half-brother.

 

To Arya, Jon is her brother, end of story, and the fact he's a half-brother and baseborn makes not one jot of difference to how much she loves him. To Sansa, who's been brought up to be careful about social niceties and hierarchies, the fact that Jon is a bastard and a half-brother creates a distinction in her mind and makes Jon forever someone "less." Even when "she is a bastard too," by her own reckoning, she still ranks Jon a distant second to and a poor consolation prize for the loss of her "real" brothers. That is a big difference between Arya and Sansa, both in relation to Jon and in general. For all that Sansa has supposedly grown over the course of the books to look behind surfaces and social niceties to see people's true character and real value, the AFFC passage shows that she still just doesn't get it and likely never will.

 

As for Ygritte, Jon has far more thoughts associating with Arya with Ygritte than with Sansa. Specifically, he thinks on two separate occasions that underneath Ygritte's clothes she could be as skinny as Arya. He also thinks that something about Ygritte reminds him of Arya, even though they look nothing alike. There's another instance where Ygritte appears to him to be as stubborn as Arya.

 

In addition to Ygritte, Jon meets another "not-Arya" who reminds him of his sister: Alys Karstark. Alys' courage when wedding Sigorn reminds Jon of Arya so much that it almost breaks his heart. Alys also flirts with Jon and wryly reflects on her failure years ago to charm Robb.

 

I don't think Jon/Arya was ever seriously in the cards in the series that GRRM actually wrote, let alone that he switched it all onto the other sister with AFFC/ADWD.  If that was what he was doing, it makes little sense to structure Jon's ADWD plot arc around trying to rescue fArya -- which you can read as a prelude to romantic love if you want, but I don't think it's anything other than a reminder of their deep, platonic bond, which has been a constant theme throughout the series.

 

We differ on whether romantic Jon/Arya will be a thing in the books, but I agree that the depth of their bond to date in the books is undeniable, and that if GRRM were planning Jon/Sansa, it would make little sense to structure his ADWD plot around a desperate attempt to rescue a girl he believes to be Arya to the point of breaking his vows.

 

Also, by way of comparison to Jon's bond with Sansa, Jon is disturbed and horrified by Arya's marriage to Ramsay, whereas he's aware of Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion and gives precisely no fucks that we know of.

 

But its clear that even as early as the first book it had already veered completely off course from the outline presented.

It's not clear. The outline has a lot in common with the published books, although I'm not going to list all the similarities because it would take too long.

 

I think you can actually see the point where GRRM changed gears with the start of AFfC because his original plan of a five-year gap to age up certain players doesn't work

GRRM's quote in relation to scrapping the time jump was along the lines of "If a 12-year-old has to conquer the world, so be it." Meaning, ultimately I'm going to do what I was always going to do and fuck the age problem. 

 

There's a reason D&D moved Sansa up North

There is a reason, but we don't know what that reason is yet. We don't have the books to compare at this point, so we're only speculating about why the move happened. It could just as easily be Sansa was brought up north to incorporate her into the North storyline. Or it could be that the Vale is a self-contained storyline D&D decided to cut for whatever reason (too boring, doesn't lead to anything interesting in the books, etc.). I think we will probably look back at the end of Season 8 and have a better understanding of why things happened the way they did. Sansa getting Jeyned in retrospect appeared to have been partly to give her a far more personal grudge against Ramsay for the revenge plot in Season 6, but that wasn't obvious at the time.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

It looks like 6x05 might be when characters leave the Wall, and after that happens I think we won't see it again until it falls. There's that older 6x05 still of Melisandre on a horse, now I've seen a 6x05 still of Brienne where the lighting looks Wall-ish to me and a 6x04 still of Davos (where there might be smoke in the foreground). So in 6x05 Sansa/Davos leave for Bear Island, Jon/Melisandre leave for Winterfell, and Brienne/Pod leave for Riverrun?

 

In general, I've found the 13 episode announcement reinvigorating. Knowing that after this season's finale the end will be closer than expected has made it feel like we're finally going to get some huge revelations.

[FemmyV]

Even without the books, just looking at the series, the first lasting impression we get of Jon & Arya is when she leaps staight into his arms and straddles him. Talk about being shown a gun in the first act.

That said, I would fully expect this to be one of GRRM's bittersweet endings

Edited April 21, 2016 by FemmyV

[GrailKing]

Anyone thinks that Sansa may die in child birth?

Throwing it out there because of her Stark outfit for season 6.

[Chris24601]

Anyone thinks that Sansa may die in child birth?

Throwing it out there because of her Stark outfit for season 6.

Nah... there's not even any evidence she's pregnant.

 

If anything, I suspect its a visual cue linking Sansa to Lyanna at the same point we find out that Rhaegar is Jon's father as the point when she'll start wearing that dress should be right about the time we get the Tower of Joy stuff (rumor is about mid-season is when that will pop up and Sansa won't start wearing the Stark emblem dress until some point after she reaches Castle Black and has time to regroup). Given that we're also getting other flashbacks as well, I can't help but think that they're going to be setting up some parallels.

 

Consider... A Lord (Robert) and a Prince (Rhaeghar) end up going to war over a Stark Lady (Lyanna). Now we have Ramsey (a Lord) likely to go to war with Jon Snow (a Prince) over Sansa (a Stark Lady). My suspicion though is that they'll flip the ending... in Robert's Rebellion, the Lord killed the Prince and the Stark Lady died. This time I think it'll be that the Prince kills the Lord and so the Stark Lady lives.

[GrailKing]

Nah... there's not even any evidence she's pregnant.

 

If anything, I suspect its a visual cue linking Sansa to Lyanna at the same point we find out that Rhaegar is Jon's father as the point when she'll start wearing that dress should be right about the time we get the Tower of Joy stuff (rumor is about mid-season is when that will pop up and Sansa won't start wearing the Stark emblem dress until some point after she reaches Castle Black and has time to regroup). Given that we're also getting other flashbacks as well, I can't help but think that they're going to be setting up some parallels.

 

Consider... A Lord (Robert) and a Prince (Rhaeghar) end up going to war over a Stark Lady (Lyanna). Now we have Ramsey (a Lord) likely to go to war with Jon Snow (a Prince) over Sansa (a Stark Lady). My suspicion though is that they'll flip the ending... in Robert's Rebellion, the Lord killed the Prince and the Stark Lady died. This time I think it'll be that the Prince kills the Lord and so the Stark Lady lives.

By the same token, there is no evidence she isn't, the parallel works both ways, bittersweet, possible, future heir especially if Jon or Bran claims the child , there is more then one direction for Sansa.

Of course I prefer her to live a somewhat happy life.

[Jazzy24]

Anyone thinks that Sansa may die in child birth?

Throwing it out there because of her Stark outfit for season 6.

I wouldn't put it pass D&D to do something like that turning this into more of a soap opera.

[FemmyV]

Going back to the first 2 episodes of the series, I'm still of the belief that it has to mean something that Jon was the only "Stark" sibling to have any scenes with all Starks (minus Sansa) plus Jaime, plus Tyrion. I just don't know what it means.

 

What it basically means, if nothing else, was a tip-off that Jon was going to become a central character in the story.

[Oscirus]

Sansa and Tyrion has no claim to the throne. The war between the Starks and the Lannisters are over, any remaining trace of that rivalry will die with Cercei. Tyrion is not exactly popular within Westeros, he is known as a kinslayer. Even if he does something good in the fight against the White Walkers it would not change those facts completely.

 

Doesn't matter the only person with a claim to the throne is Dany and if she backs his claim especially after defeating the current regime and becoming the queen for a while, then Westeros would back him.  A Lannister Stark union makes sense even if we ignore the rivalry aspect. If Dany does back Tyrion, it doesn't hurt to have the crown align with the north. Especially after all the crap that's been pulled on them since the beginning of the book.

 

Maybe it's just me but I've seen too many hints from the showrunners to ignore that pair as an endgame. Even if they're reluctant partners, I still think those will be the final two when the show ends.

 

By the same token, there is no evidence she isn't, the parallel works both ways, bittersweet, possible, future heir especially if Jon or Bran claims the child , there is more then one direction for Sansa.

 

If Sansa was pregnant, they could have easily hinted at it in the normal ways, morning sickness, etc, but they haven't. I doubt that she would willing bring another Bolton into the world.

[CofCinci]

Doesn't matter the only person with a claim to the throne is Dany and if she backs his claim especially after defeating the current regime and becoming the queen for a while, then Westeros would back him. A Lannister Stark union makes sense even if we ignore the rivalry aspect. If Dany does back Tyrion, it doesn't hurt to have the crown align with the north. Especially after all the crap that's been pulled on them since the beginning of the book.

Maybe it's just me but I've seen too many hints from the showrunners to ignore that pair as an endgame. Even if they're reluctant partners, I still think those will be the final two when the show ends.

If Sansa was pregnant, they could have easily hinted at it in the normal ways, morning sickness, etc, but they haven't. I doubt that she would willing bring another Bolton into the world.

Not much time has elapsed.