Season 6: Speculation

[Umbelina]

I wonder if it's time for the whole "doom of Valeria" to finally enter this story.  Maybe Dani stops there on her way and picks up more dragonglass?  Ha.

[Conan Troutman]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, because countries and people always, one way or another, have leaders. 

Sure they do, and that's what Jon and Dany will do. But the Iron Throne is a thing of the past. Jon has no desire for it and Dany, while she's always big about her birthright, has made a big speech about breaking the wheel. Whatever she imagines her rule to be, it won't be like what we've seen. 

14 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

But aren't both Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel both in short supply in Westeros?  And I do think they're huge, in numbers at least.  And the thing is that the more people they defeat, the bigger they get.  

If anything, I'd say the fact that Dragons pretty much trump everything and everyone else weighs in favor that they are too obvious to be the endgame.

Valyiran steel yes, dragonglass no (there's ton of it in Dragonstone). And I doubt the WWs are huge in numbers. They have wights, yes (which can easily be burned by the dragons), but are probably having demographic problems of their own - why else would they need Craster's sons? 

Agreed to the second part. They're far too powerful to simply smash the WWs in the endgame. There's gotta be more to it. 

[Umbelina]

Well, to me, I pretty much equate the "Iron Throne" to whomever will eventually lead Westeros.  As far as the Throne itself?  Who cares about a piece of furniture?

[Conan Troutman]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if it's time for the whole "doom of Valeria" to finally enter this story.  Maybe Dani stops there on her way and picks up more dragonglass?  Ha.

It has to. Maybe the new red priestess from the trailer will help us there. Although if there's a physical object, I'm sure it's going to be Jorah's last task to retrieve it. He was there already and in his "final form" as a Stone Man would belong there. I've thought about Jorah's purpose for a while and I think that would be a great final act for him. Get whatever it is that's out there, sacrifice himself while fighting the Stone Men and deliver the magic MacGuffin to Dany with his dying breath.

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

But the Iron Throne is a thing of the past. Jon has no desire for it and Dany, while she's always big about her birthright, has made a big speech about breaking the wheel. Whatever she imagines her rule to be, it won't be like what we've seen. 

I'm unconvinced that "breaking the wheel" was anything other than a cool line in the script.  We haven't seen anything to suggest that Dany conceives of herself as anything other than a conventional autocrat; that's certainly how she's running Meereen.

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm unconvinced that "breaking the wheel" was anything other than a cool line in the script.  We haven't seen anything to suggest that Dany conceives of herself as anything other than a conventional autocrat; that's certainly how she's running Meereen.

We have a pretty good idea of what "breaking the wheel" looks like to Dany. It's what she did to the dothraki in 6x04: kill the leaders of all the squabbling factions who cause misery to the little people and install herself as a dictator.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[Conan Troutman]

But she's been running it that way because she didn't have the shrewd minds and political savvy of Tyrion and Varys. Had those two been with her from the beginning, Meereen never would've been this mess in the first place. I don't know what they would've come up with, but I'm sure it would be working right now. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[Maximum Taco]

5 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

But she's been running it that way because she didn't have the shrewd minds and political savvy of Tyrion and Varys. Had those two been with her from the beginning, Meereen never would've been this mess in the first place. I don't know what they would've come up with, but I'm sure it would be working right now. 

Untrue.

If Dany was around she'd just undermine Tyrion and Varys whenever their ideas contradicted hers in the slightest. Do you think Dany would've offered Astapor and Yunkai 7 years to do away with slavery? 7 Hells to the no, she'd say "No slavery" and when they ask how they're supposed to support their economy which until now had been entirely slavery based she'd say "Don't know, don't care." and retire to her room to fuck Daario.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

But she's been running it that way because she didn't have the shrewd minds and political savvy of Tyrion and Varys. Had those two been with her from the beginning, Meereen never would've been this mess in the first place. I don't know what they would've come up with, but I'm sure it would be working right now. 

Tyrion tried to sell her on needing to get the support of enough of the heads of the noble houses during their conversation, and her "breaking the wheel" response was pretty much "Or, you know, I could kill them all instead."

I don't see any reason to believe that Dany would be any more measured than she was with the khals. She would give the nobles a chance to bend to her will and, if they didn't show the appropriate degree of submission, she'd kill them, either personally (as she did with the khals), with her dragons and/or the Unsullied (as in Astapor), or by enlisting the common people to rise up and take them down. That's Dany's MO. 

In the show and the books, Dany is moving further and further away from negotiation and compromise. The dothraki are a brutal and violent culture, and if Dany's getting back to her dothraki roots, coupled with a growing awareness of her Targ nature (dragons plant no trees) and her special status as the chosen conqueror, it doesn't point to someone who will be particularly interested in wheeling and dealing or negotiation and compromise. 

To be clear, I don't think Dany is turning into a villain or anything like that. It's just that she seems to be moving away from anything that resembles TV Tyrion's style of politics, and that she looks like she'll be less and less inclined to be influenced by people preaching diplomacy and restraint (either Tyrion as in the show, or her advisors in the books), especially with thousands of dothraki at her back who will only respect her if she shows strength, i.e. ferocious, brutal violence dealt swiftly to any opposition.

In the books and the show, I think Tyrion will stick with Dany no matter how hard a line she takes. Book Tyrion probably wouldn't mind wreaking havoc on the noble houses who fucked him over in his mind (the Lannisters, the Vale lords, etc.), and Dany brutally dismantling the Westeros power structure would likely be fine with him as long as he was rewarded handsomely for his loyalty in the end. TV Tyrion might profess to be appalled, but he's used to working with and for people like Tywin, with a capacity for brutal, violent tactics in service of a greater aim. Besides, in both book and show, without having some sort of status to Dany he's nothing and he knows it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To be clear, I don't think Dany is turning into a villain or anything like that. It's just that she seems to be moving away from anything that resembles TV Tyrion's style of politics, and that she looks like she'll be less and less inclined to be influenced by people preaching diplomacy and restraint (either Tyrion as in the show, or her advisors in the books), especially with thousands of dothraki at her back who will only respect her if she shows strength, i.e. ferocious, brutal violence dealt swiftly to any opposition.

In the books and the show, I think Tyrion will stick with Dany no matter how hard a line she takes. Book Tyrion probably wouldn't mind wreaking havoc on the noble houses who fucked him over in his mind (the Lannisters, the Vale lords, etc.), and Dany brutally dismantling the Westeros power structure would likely be fine with him as long as he was rewarded handsomely for his loyalty in the end. TV Tyrion might profess to be appalled, but he's used to working with and for people like Tywin, with a capacity for brutal, violent tactics in service of a greater aim. Besides, in both book and show, without having some sort of status to Dany he's nothing and he knows it.

To the extent that Dany envisions a real change in Westeros, it may be that in her world the nobles will be greatly reduced in power, with all of it being wielded by the central government (i.e., her).

All this doesn't really make her unique, by any means.  Every single main character in this series believes in autocracy.  There is no other form of government known to Westeros (Jon was an elected autocrat, like, e.g., the Pope; once he took office he didn't have to answer to anyone and could only be removed by murder).  The philosophical divide is between autocrats who conceive of the job as involving obligations toward others and those who think the whole world exists purely to serve them.  Dany, for all the arguable egotism in how she likes reeling off her titles, belongs in the former category; indeed, the whole Slaver's Bay storyline is essentially a messianic mission to reshape how an entire continent's economy is organized for the betterment of the smallfolk.  If she ever became queen, I imagine she would govern with an eye to improving ordinary people's lives (at the expense of the nobles).  But she'd always be the one making the call.  Similar to the Starks, who are pretty classic noblesse oblige types.

The latter category would most obviously include the Lannisters, as encapsulated by poor lapdog show!Jaime's "we're the only ones who matter" speech from the season six premiere.

[Meredith Quill]

55 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Untrue.

If Dany was around she'd just undermine Tyrion and Varys whenever their ideas contradicted hers in the slightest. Do you think Dany would've offered Astapor and Yunkai 7 years to do away with slavery? 7 Hells to the no, she'd say "No slavery" and when they ask how they're supposed to support their economy which until now had been entirely slavery based she'd say "Don't know, don't care." and retire to her room to fuck Daario.

I do not believe for one moment that Tyrion has any intention whatsoever, of sticking to the deal he offered the slavers. Imo that was merely a stalling tactic designed to cut off the financial support for the SOTH. You cannot fight a war on 2 fronts; once Meereen is under control, they can turn their attention to deal with the other rebellious cities in whatever way they deem necessary, and I believe that is what he will explain to Dany when she returns.

[Conan Troutman]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

Untrue.

If Dany was around she'd just undermine Tyrion and Varys whenever their ideas contradicted hers in the slightest. Do you think Dany would've offered Astapor and Yunkai 7 years to do away with slavery? 7 Hells to the no, she'd say "No slavery" and when they ask how they're supposed to support their economy which until now had been entirely slavery based she'd say "Don't know, don't care." and retire to her room to fuck Daario.

I disagree. I used to criticize her because she didn't follow her advisers enough, but now I'm seeing why she didn't - Jorah and Barristan may be great swordsmen, but are lousy diplomats compared to Tyrion and Varys. The thing with Dany is - she can be reasoned with, if you pull the right strings and bring the right arguments. 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I don't see any reason to believe that Dany would be any more measured than she was with the khals. She would give the nobles a chance to bend to her will and, if they didn't show the appropriate degree of submission, she'd kill them, either personally (as she did with the khals), with her dragons and/or the Unsullied (as in Astapor), or by enlisting the common people to rise up and take them down. That's Dany's MO. .

There's two things about the situation with the Khals that were unique and won't apply to any further negotiation she might have:
1. The Khals gave her the options of either being sold to the masters of Yulankapor, being raped to death or rot in that shitty hut - what the hell would be a "measured reaction" to that? She's not going to face such terms as a ruler.
2. She always makes a point of offering the other party something. Maybe that's not always acceptable to them (like with the various slavers) and she needs a better salesman and often it is just "and I won't kill you", but hey - at least she IS offering that, as opposed to so many other rulers.

21 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I do not believe for one moment that Tyrion has any intention whatsoever, of sticking to the deal he offered the slavers. Imo that was merely a stalling tactic designed to cut off the financial support for the SOTH. You cannot fight a war on 2 fronts; once Meereen is under control, they can turn their attention to deal with the other rebellious cities in whatever way they deem necessary, and I believe that is what he will explain to Dany when she returns.

Exactly, Tyrion was buying time. And time was exactly what they needed. Now, how much time it is remains to be seen (as every party knows they have to strike first), but right now, every day counts. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[Eyes High]

50 minutes ago, SeanC said:

 If she ever became queen, I imagine she would govern with an eye to improving ordinary people's lives (at the expense of the nobles).  But she'd always be the one making the call.  Similar to the Starks, who are pretty classic noblesse oblige types.

The Stark comparison doesn't really work, since the Starks--at least until Robb--were beholden to the crown and had somebody holding them in check and preventing them from murdering willy nilly anyone who disagreed with their philosophies or refused to submit absolutely. The Starks had plenty of bannermen up to some creepy shit, but Ned Stark didn't kill them just because he didn't like their way of doing things or tell them to knock it off or die, because as much as he might have disliked it, there are rules. Even big, bad, cruel, ruthless Tywin didn't fuck with the Starks until they fucked with him. Dany's beholden to no one, and therein lies the problem.

Dany's increasingly hard line is one of the pieces of fairly convincing evidence that she's unlikely to be the endgame queen, so all this talk of Dany reforming Westeros is likely to remain hypothetical. She'll do her part to save Westeros and conveniently make way for someone else (Jon, probably) by dying or somesuch.

Moreover, Dany's overarching plan is a pretty limited one. Acting as dictator and tyrant and wiping out the nobles works fine...for precisely one generation. She dies (without issue), her successor will be unable to exert the same iron authority to ensure absolute control and maintain whatever order there was, new factions will just spring up to challenge her successor, and Westeros will spiral into anarchy. It would be one thing to cede power gradually when new democratic structures are put in place, but Dany's tactic of leaving someone in her stead to rule the conquered city and moving on has a pretty shit track record, judging from Astapor and Yunkai. Her brave new world would last precisely as long as she does, and no longer...so it's a good thing none of this will ever come to pass, as GRRM and D&D have strongly indicated is the case in my opinion.

38 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I do not believe for one moment that Tyrion has any intention whatsoever, of sticking to the deal he offered the slavers. Imo that was merely a stalling tactic designed to cut off the financial support for the SOTH. 

That was my first thought as well. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Just now, Eyes High said:

The Stark comparison doesn't really work, since the Starks--at least until Robb--were beholden to the crown and had somebody holding them in check and preventing them from murdering willy nilly anyone who disagreed with their philosophies or refused to submit absolutely.

I don't think any of the Starks (in the main series) would have been inclined to do that anyway.  It wasn't the fear of Robert Baratheon keeping Ned from murdering anyone who disagreed with him, it was Ned's own nature.

[nksarmi]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

In the current episode thread there is the question raised of who is the rightful heir to the throne as things stand on the show, considering the current condition of the Baratheon and Lannister families.  Limiting to the question to the throne as it's understood in Kings Landing at the current time and not the wider, overarching story of the entireties of the kingdoms overall, I think we may be getting ready for Cersei to receive some more Lannister gold as Tommen falls in the tussle coming up with the Tyrell forces, the High Sparrow and the Faith Militant and whatever missions Cersei employs the royal and Lannister forces to carry out.  I think the High Sparrow intends to step forward into the vacuum presented in Kings Landing and claim the throne by virtue of the force of the Faith Militant, sans a deceased Lancel; by virtue of the backing of the people he has been courting affection with, the common people;  AND by birth, revealing himself somehow to possess a secret birthright connection which entitles him to sit upon the throne.

I'm really not sure about what the answer is, but if we consider that the Baratheon claim was based on the fact that they had some Targ blood then I would think the next in line would have been the Martells.  I mean, in the books Quentin pulls his Dragon Tamer stunt based on his belief that he can because he has Targ blood. But since on the show the Sand Snakes have killed off the Martell line - that isn't much help.

And at this point on the show, none of the family left seem to have rulers capable enough to take the throne.

-The Martels are done to bastard Sand Snakes.

- The Lannisters are down to crazy Cersei, white cloak Jamie, and on-the-run Tyrion. It seems like Tyrion might be able to come back and take the Rock and there are supposedly loads of cousins running around so maybe they will survive but not through Tywin's line.

- The Baratheons seem like they are down to bastards.

- The Greyjoy name will probably have to pass through an uncle's line.

- The Arryns are down to sweet Robin and it seems like he's toast sooner or later.

- I'm not even sure what's going on with Edmure or Blackfish on the show, but the Tully's have some shot at surviving.

- The Starks oddly enough seem like they are in the best place for a child of the former patriarch to survive and rule the North, but it seems increasingly likely that will have to be through Sansa on the show.

So if the show wants a ruler of Targ blood - I think it's going to have to be Jon or Dany.

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't think any of the Starks (in the main series) would have been inclined to do that anyway.  It wasn't the fear of Robert Baratheon keeping Ned from murdering anyone who disagreed with him, it was Ned's own nature.

There are other examples.

6 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I'm really not sure about what the answer is, but if we consider that the Baratheon claim was based on the fact that they had some Targ blood then I would think the next in line would have been the Martells.  I mean, in the books Quentin pulls his Dragon Tamer stunt based on his belief that he can because he has Targ blood. But since on the show the Sand Snakes have killed off the Martell line - that isn't much help.

And at this point on the show, none of the family left seem to have rulers capable enough to take the throne.

-The Martels are done to bastard Sand Snakes.

- The Lannisters are down to crazy Cersei, white cloak Jamie, and on-the-run Tyrion. It seems like Tyrion might be able to come back and take the Rock and there are supposedly loads of cousins running around so maybe they will survive but not through Tywin's line.

- The Baratheons seem like they are down to bastards.

- The Greyjoy name will probably have to pass through an uncle's line.

- The Arryns are down to sweet Robin and it seems like he's toast sooner or later.

- I'm not even sure what's going on with Edmure or Blackfish on the show, but the Tully's have some shot at surviving.

- The Starks oddly enough seem like they are in the best place for a child of the former patriarch to survive and rule the North, but it seems increasingly likely that will have to be through Sansa on the show.

So if the show wants a ruler of Targ blood - I think it's going to have to be Jon or Dany.

At this point, I think Jon's got a lock on the throne. Dany's prospects for being the endgame queen have been doomed for a while for me--the bit of her turning away from the throne in the show version of the HOTU vision was pretty telling, in my opinion--but the direction she's taken in the show has only confirmed that opinion. I don't see Jon and Dany hooking up, either. My guess is that Jon will marry Arya, thus providing the ultimate revenge for Ned's death: the Starks inherit the earth (well, throne).

Edited May 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[nksarmi]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There are other examples.

At this point, I think Jon's got a lock on the throne. Dany's prospects for being the endgame queen have been doomed for a while for me--the bit of her turning away from the throne in the show version of the HOTU vision was pretty telling, in my opinion--but the direction she's taken in the show has only confirmed that opinion. I don't see Jon and Dany hooking up, either. My guess is that Jon will marry Arya, thus providing the ultimate revenge for Ned's death: the Starks inherit the earth (well, throne).

I don't think Jon will marry Ayra but that's largely because I don't think Arya will marry. If that plot still happens (and I think we've talked about this before) - I think it shifts to Sansa (making her the YMBQ as so many believe but I don't really think so). I'm not really sure what other options Jon would have as a political marriage if he wanted to make one....I mean assuming Dany dies and he doesn't want to marry his sister/cousin....

Yara perhaps for the Iron Born? If she isn't ruling the Iron Islands she might take that.

Surely not a sand snake and Arienne doesn't exist in the show.

Could Marg possibly survive to marry yet another king? Hell, he sure consider her a black widow and rule her out even if she does live.

No Lannisters that I can think of.

No Tullies or Arynns.

Dear lord - no Freys just out of protest.

Sam's sisters is married correct?

His options really rather limited on the show.

[SeanC]

23 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Sam's sisters is married correct?

Not that we know of.

[Avaleigh]

10 hours ago, nksarmi said:

 

If I had to make a narrative guess, the story on the show (since we don't have Aegon to account for) should proceed with Dany arriving with the lower realm in utter chaos. At this point, Cersei has made a total mess of things with her empowerment of the FM and her targeting of Marg (and her inability to realize that once Robert B died - she was no longer queen).

I keep seeing this being said but Cersei didn't stop being queen when Robert died. She became Queen Regent and regents do have some degree of power. On the show multiple characters make a point of her being regent over her son. Oberyn talks about it during the purple wedding and mentions that Cersei's regency is at an end. She went back to being regent when Tommen became the king. I don't think she's regent any more (Kevan says that her regency is at an end in ADWD) but she's still entitled to the style of queen since she was married to the king and is the mother of the king. Queen Mothers may not have official power but if they play their cards right they can still have plenty of influence. Obviously Cersei did the worst possible job someone in her position can do and she'll be paying the price for her cruelty, selfishness, and overall stupidity. She's easily the most foolish person in King's Landing and certainly in the top three in the overall story. 

[Alapaki]

Quote

To the extent that Dany envisions a real change in Westeros, it may be that in her world the nobles will be greatly reduced in power, with all of it being wielded by the central government (i.e., her).

You can add me to the column of Dany probably being a not-great Queen.

We're told in the books that Aegon (fake or real) has been raised to respect the people and want to care for them.

Dany, on the other hand, was raised by Vicerys to hate and want revenge on the usurper Robert Baratheon and anyone who supports him.

She doesn't seem that conflicted when Viserys is killed by Drogo.  I realize the guy was a little too handsy; but he was her last living relative in the whole world, as far as she knew.

Then she decides pretty quickly that she has a right to the Iron Throne and that she'll use her husband's Khalasar to get it.

Once Drogo dies and she finally starts making her way back to Westeros by sea, she take a detour to buy a slave army.  Let's talk about that.  She wants a whole army of unsullied, but can't afford them.  So she decides to make a deal with her fingers crossed behind her back, and proceeds to massacre her trade partners and take back her side of the bargain.  The Slavers in Astapor were bastards, of course.  And that scene, on screen and on page was pretty bad-ass.  But the bottom line is she was a shady dealer.

I think Dany becoming the Baberaham Lincoln of Slavers Bay was part of the Mereenese Knot and not really part of her essential character.  But ultimately she's not emancipating the slaves of Yunkai or Mereen for their own good, but to hurt the Masters that were in her way.

Now she decides that, despite the complete absence of precedence, she is entitled to be the first Khaleesi entitled to take control not just of her dead husband's Khalasar, but the entire Dothraki people.  I have no problem with her murdering the Khals to escape her kidnapping.  But she thinks she's entitled to lead the entire Dothraki nation and expects them to support her attack on Westeros.

I think the bottom line is that when it comes to something Dany thinks she's entitled to (as she does the rule over all of Westeros), she brooks no dissent.  She sees herself as a rightful Queen and expects all knees to bend before her.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Alapaki

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

At this point, I think Jon's got a lock on the throne. Dany's prospects for being the endgame queen have been doomed for a while for me--the bit of her turning away from the throne in the show version of the HOTU vision was pretty telling, in my opinion--but the direction she's taken in the show has only confirmed that opinion. I don't see Jon and Dany hooking up, either. My guess is that Jon will marry Arya, thus providing the ultimate revenge for Ned's death: the Starks inherit the earth (well, throne).

Other than which of Ned's daughters will be queen I tend to agree with you (like the poster above I don't believe Arya will ever marry and the more distant half-sibling relationship the show took pains to point out where the couple doesn't actually look like they're related is definitely an easier sell for general audiences). The only other thing I'd note in that regard is that I fully expect Jon to rule from Winterfell and not King's Landing.

Frankly, if we hadn't seen her as a victimized girl in the first season I think a lot of people would have a clearer picture of what Dany actually is.

Her army upon reaching Westeros will consist of Dothraki (if they had House words they'd be "Murder, Rape, Pillage") backed by the Ironborn navy ("We do not sow") with a core of fanatically loyal elite warriors who dress all in black and have identity concealing helmets (that as pointed out above she bought from slavers and then went back on the deal).

She has exotic beauty, a magical immunity to flames and a connection to living weapons of mass destruction whose form is traditionally associated with demonic forces. Her house words are "Fire and Blood" and she speaks of tearing down the existing order regardless of what the common people might want and installing herself as absolute dictator. She basks in being worshiped like a goddess and from the previews I suspect the majority of the Red Priests (who burn people alive as sacrifices to their god) are likely to fall into line with her as the champion of their god.

She's spent the last two years living atop a freaking ziggurat (they call it a pyramid, but its a ziggurat by any conventional definition), crucifies people without bothering to learn whether they were innocent or guilty, also throws potentially innocent people to be burned alive and torn apart by man-eating dragons in order to enforce her will and the two key advisors most likely to make the trip to Westeros with her are a eunuch master of spies and a scarred dwarf.

Throw in on top of that she's got an irrational hatred of just about the only decent people left on the continent (she's made a point of hating on the Starks for their support of Robert against her family and wants to see them crushed right along with every other noble house she believes betrayed her family) and its all quite plain.

Daenerys Targaryen is practically the embodiment of the Evil Overlord trope, cleverly disguised by getting to meet them and sympathize with them before their start of darkness.

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not that we know of.

Ah well then Jon can align with House Tarley at the end then. That might be kind of sweet if the old man is dead. :)

[nksarmi]

57 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I keep seeing this being said but Cersei didn't stop being queen when Robert died. She became Queen Regent and regents do have some degree of power. On the show multiple characters make a point of her being regent over her son. Oberyn talks about it during the purple wedding and mentions that Cersei's regency is at an end. She went back to being regent when Tommen became the king. I don't think she's regent any more (Kevan says that her regency is at an end in ADWD) but she's still entitled to the style of queen since she was married to the king and is the mother of the king. Queen Mothers may not have official power but if they play their cards right they can still have plenty of influence. Obviously Cersei did the worst possible job someone in her position can do and she'll be paying the price for her cruelty, selfishness, and overall stupidity. She's easily the most foolish person in King's Landing and certainly in the top three in the overall story. 

She seems to act like with Robert's death - she took over the throne. In reality, it first went to her crazy, uncontrollable son who only listened to his grandfather. Then upon his death, it went to her not crazy, but very naïve younger son whom she never had full control over. She was always vying with someone - Tywin, Marg, now the High Sparrow himself. She has never had the power she thought she did.

Plus, it should be said that Marg replaced her the moment she married Geoffrey. Cersei has really been nothing more than Queen Mother since. She might have worn the title of Regent on a couple of occasions, but those moments were quickly ended by the likes of others and her sons coming of age. Simply put, Olenna isn't wrong when she says Cersei seems to have confused her role in the family with the role Marg is now supposed to be playing.

[Oscirus]

Quote

At this point, I think Jon's got a lock on the throne

I'm not seeing it. The show hasn't set up Jon's journey to the iron throne at all. It would feel cheap if you had all these people fighting for the iron throne just for it to go to someone who had a secret daddy.

Quote

Obviously Cersei did the worst possible job someone in her position can do and she'll be paying the price for her cruelty, selfishness, and overall stupidity. She's easily the most foolish person in King's Landing and certainly in the top three in the overall story.

I'd argue that Cersei's more dangerously arrogant then foolish. Who the hell just rips up royal edicts in a room full of witnesses and just shrugs it off like its nothing? What makes her so dangerous is that there is a method to her madness and in theory most of her plans should work, she just tends to forget about the consequences of her schemes so more often then not they blow up in her face

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'm not seeing it. The show hasn't set up Jon's journey to the iron throne at all. It would feel cheap if you had all these people fighting for the iron throne just for it to go to someone who had a secret daddy.

That's because he's probably not headed for the Iron Throne. I think the Iron Throne and King's Landing are going to go up in a ball of fire and we're seeing the final stages of it now. I think civilization as we know it is going to collapse under the weight of Dany's invasion from the south and the Other's invasion from the north. I think a good chunk of the population is going to die from either fire or ice before its all over.

Jon will become King because he will be the one to lead the survivors through the coming Armageddon and out the other side. He will be the one to lead the people in rebuilding the world in the aftermath. The great irony of the story will be that, despite having king's blood, it will play zero role in how he becomes the king everyone looks to for leadership (and it won't hurt that he'll likely have Sansa the Queen, Davos the Hand, Bran the Greenseer, Sam the Maester and Arya the Master of Whispers as his key advisors).

Edited May 18, 2016 by Chris24601

[Bean421]

34 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

That's because he's probably not headed for the Iron Throne. I think the Iron Throne and King's Landing are going to go up in a ball of fire and we're seeing the final stages of it now. I think civilization as we know it is going to collapse under the weight of Dany's invasion from the south and the Other's invasion from the north. I think a good chunk of the population is going to die from either fire or ice before its all over.

Jon will become King because he will be the one to lead the survivors through the coming Armageddon and out the other side. He will be the one to lead the people in rebuilding the world in the aftermath. The great irony of the story will be that, despite having king's blood, it will play zero role in how he becomes the king everyone looks to for leadership (and it won't hurt that he'll likely have Sansa the Queen, Davos the Hand, Bran the Greenseer, Sam the Maester and Arya the Master of Whispers as his key advisors).

This is everything I never knew I wanted or needed in my life. 

[SeanC]

In terms of what effect the White Walkers are going to have on Westerosi civilization, that's been an ongoing fandom debate for a long time.  You get responses ranging from near-total civilization collapse to a fairly confined episode that leaves the existing power structure mostly in place.

D&D's clear desire to keep the final two seasons at a fairly low episode count, with perhaps as few as six episodes in the final season, has increasingly made me wonder if it's going to be a lot closer to the latter than the former.  Particularly when you consider that at least a good part of the seventh season will be spent on ordinary political matters, we may not actually get to the White Walker invasion until the final year.

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Bean421 said:

This is everything I never knew I wanted or needed in my life. 

I KNOW, right?

On their own they're just cripples, bastards and broken things who've been beaten down by the world. But put them together...

Sansa has no armies or fighting skills and as a woman she is not seen as a leader in her own right, but she has endured court intrigues and politics via the armor of courtesy and perseverance. Her political savvy and ability to encourage were on full display in both her ability to recognize that Jon needs to be the leader if the North is to be rallied and in convincing Jon that it is something they MUST do. What better Queen could you ask for?

Davos isn't a good fighter and is a natural follower, but he also astoundingly loyal to those he believes in, knows how to read people, understands what it takes to be a good leader and isn't afraid to tell his Lord when he's heading down the wrong path. All he's lacked is the right leader to follow. You could not find a better Hand for a good king than that.

Bran is a cripple who will never be strong in the way the world values the term. But he can see the past and potentially the future as well (as Merlin was reputed to be able to do) and control and see through the eyes of beasts... power that is real in a way the Faith of the Seven is not and does not seem to require blood sacrifice to enact as it does for the Red God. I swear by the Old Gods that you're not going to find a better religious leader in the Seven Kingdoms than that.

Sam is out of shape and a lover of books in a world that acknowledges only strength of arms. Yet when faced with supernatural evil when innocent lives were in danger he didn't back down and having the right knowledge at the right time is necessary if a king is to make good decisions. Even without the chains, Sam has always been Jon's Maester.

Arya refuses to behave like a lady and is basically a broken child soldier in the process of being indoctrinated into an identity destroying cult. But she's also learned how to listen, is being taught how to fight and depending on how she leaves the service of the Faceless Men, might be able to assume any number of identities to both learn of plots and put an end to them before they come to bloom. What better role for Arya than one where she can use her skills in service to her family without having to embrace the stereotypical roles of a woman in Westeros?

Throw in Lord Tormund and Lady Brienne of Last Hearth and their giant beautiful warrior daughters as the fiercest allies of the Crown while you're at it too and you've got probably the strongest and most effective leadership pool Westeros has ever seen.

[Funzlerks]

I am now somewhat hoping that at least it isn't Dany and Jon at the end.  Or at least not Dany.  I don't know if it is my modern sensibilities but Jon and Sansa is still not very okay to me.  Jon and Arya would make me ill, though.  Like Jaime and Cersei ill.  There might be something to GRRM writing Sansa as much of a Stark outsider as Jon was in order to keep them from really growing up together.

I have seen Dany in a similar 'she's already mad' light.  I wonder if the High Sparrow is not an allusion to her.  He hasn't even burned anyone and yet he is despised simply because he is giving a small taste to the nobles of what they do to the poor.  Book Cersei would have gladly ridden through all the poor just to make better time to a shag with the Kettlebacks.  TV Jaime literally doesn't care about people who aren't Lannisters.  Tommen and Margaery may superficially care but they aren't willing to forgo their lifestyles to make a real difference.

Dany is very comfortable being worshipped.  That usually is not good.  Even the High Sparrow runs away from that.

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Daenerys Targaryen is practically the embodiment of the Evil Overlord trope, cleverly disguised by getting to meet them and sympathize with them before their start of darkness.

There's nothing evil or insane about the ends Dany wants to achieve: ending mass poverty, slavery, and institutionalized rape and child abuse. Dany reminds me of the left-leaning middle-class or upper-class white kids I knew in high school and university who were hell-fucking-bent on fixing the world and convinced they could do it. "You mean to tell me there are women in Thailand who have to prostitute themselves to sex tourists to have enough to eat/there are forests being razed in Brazil and entire ecosystems being destroyed daily/local economies in developing countries that will be wiped out by a new trade agreement? WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED OF THIS??? THIS WILL NOT STAND!!! SHOW ME TO THE NEAREST G8 PROTEST IMMEDIATELY!!!" Give those kids an army and nukes, and you'd end up with something a lot like the mess Dany made in Essos.

Dany's big problems are the problems of any passionate, well-meaning, stupid kid who wants to fix the world overnight and can't be told otherwise. That doesn't make her evil, it just makes her young and dumb. Unfortunately, because of how powerful she is (dragons, armies, etc.), she can cause and has caused a lot of damage as she works this out for herself. She can't just go to India to study microlending for a summer.

Quote

D&D's clear desire to keep the final two seasons at a fairly low episode count, with perhaps as few as six episodes in the final season, has increasingly made me wonder if it's going to be a lot closer to the latter than the former.  Particularly when you consider that at least a good part of the seventh season will be spent on ordinary political matters, we may not actually get to the White Walker invasion until the final year.

That's my belief.

Quote

I'm not seeing it. The show hasn't set up Jon's journey to the iron throne at all. It would feel cheap if you had all these people fighting for the iron throne just for it to go to someone who had a secret daddy.

It's process of elimination, really. I'd say that assuming there's going to be an "iron throne" (either literally or symbolically) at the end of all this (and GRRM has implied as much), then it's between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion, and the latter two are unlikely for a number of reasons. That leaves Jon: a Targ (GRRM loves the Targs) without the Targ baggage (being raised by non-Targs).

In the alternative, I guess I could see a scenario where all the magic users or magical bloodline types die or leave Westeros and the non-magic types are left behind to clean up the mess (LOTR, Prydain Chronicles, etc.). Seems unlikely, though.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Eyes High

[Alapaki]

Quote

There's nothing evil or insane about the ends Dany wants to achieve: ending mass poverty, slavery, and institutionalized rape and child abuse

Well, I give Dany credit for apparently adopting a "you break it, you own it" policy and not wanting to return the people she emancipated from the frying pan back into the fire.

But she could equally be motivated by the fact that she still has no way to get her unsullied army to Westeros and thus needs to keep the Masters who oppose her weak by depriving them of their slaves.

I think Dany is very much an allegory for GRRM getting stuck in Slavers Bay with no easy way to write himself out.  

I just feel like this notion of Dany as a manic pixie dream queen who's going to usher in a new Age of Aquarius in Westeros is largely projection and not really supported by the text.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

That's because he's probably not headed for the Iron Throne. I think the Iron Throne and King's Landing are going to go up in a ball of fire and we're seeing the final stages of it now. I think civilization as we know it is going to collapse under the weight of Dany's invasion from the south and the Other's invasion from the north. I think a good chunk of the population is going to die from either fire or ice before its all over.

Jon will become King because he will be the one to lead the survivors through the coming Armageddon and out the other side. He will be the one to lead the people in rebuilding the world in the aftermath. The great irony of the story will be that, despite having king's blood, it will play zero role in how he becomes the king everyone looks to for leadership (and it won't hurt that he'll likely have Sansa the Queen, Davos the Hand, Bran the Greenseer, Sam the Maester and Arya the Master of Whispers as his key advisors).

That doesn't feel like the ending they were building towards either. That ending sounds fairly nihilistic since it implies the appocalypse. Not bittersweet.

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That doesn't feel like the ending they were building towards either. That ending sounds fairly nihilistic since it implies the appocalypse. Not bittersweet.

I think those hoping for some cataclysmic, horrific collapse of Westeros civilization will be disappointed. GRRM wrote The Armageddon Rag, a book which despite its promising title and ominous, sinister mutterings peppered throughout the book, included no armageddon!  (Reminds me of a deleted scene from In The Loop: "I went to see that movie, There Will Be Blood...and there was hardly any fucking blood!") As I recall, and it's been a while since I read it, the last chapter was this Big Chill-type scene where everyone's sitting around shooting the shit. Even the Petyr forerunner--"Lark"--previously painted as a soulless yuppie monster who abandoned his friends to climb the corporate ladder, is ultimately forgiven and welcomed back into the circle of friends. And "Froggy," a weird-looking but brilliant college professor with a penchant for inappropriate humour (clear forerunner of Tyrion), introduces everyone to his latest superhot ladyfriend. (Not making this up.)

Now, I'm not saying that ASOIAF will end quite so prettily with the Starks and Littlefinger sitting around and having a laugh while Tyrion introduces everyone to his banging new bride, but I think all the predictions about how horribly dire the Westeros apocalypse will be are way overblown.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Eyes High

[Chris24601]

9 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

I am now somewhat hoping that at least it isn't Dany and Jon at the end.  Or at least not Dany.  I don't know if it is my modern sensibilities but Jon and Sansa is still not very okay to me.  Jon and Arya would make me ill, though.  Like Jaime and Cersei ill.  There might be something to GRRM writing Sansa as much of a Stark outsider as Jon was in order to keep them from really growing up together.

Dany is very comfortable being worshipped.  That usually is not good.  Even the High Sparrow runs away from that.

Yeah, Dany's basking in the worship looks even worse when just an episode before Jon was the focus of a similar miracle and he's explicitly denying that he's some type of god to be worshiped and is instead embracing those who've followed him as equals.

There's a LOT of compare and contrast between Jon and Dany in that respect and Dany always seems to be the one who comes out in a negative light. She also gets compare and contrast with other bad rulers too. On marathon rewatch of season 5, the similarities between Dany throwing a man who could be innocent for all she cares to her dragons to be burned alive and eaten as a means of securing power takes on added significance (and not in a good way) when not more than a couple of hours later you're watching Stannis burn his innocent daughter to death as a means of securing his military victory.

Dany has this veneer of Girl Power and Social Justice to her that makes it hard for people to see her as a villain... but plenty of villains have noble ends they're trying to achieve. The real divide are the lines they're willing to cross to achieve those ends. Dany has been shown to be perfectly willing to burn the innocent with the guilty if it gets her what she wants and that's the defining trait of the Well-Intentioned Extremist variety of Evil Overlord.

As to the first part, both structurally (last episode was the first time Jon and Sansa have ever interacted on screen with each other) and narratively (establishing that Sansa treated Jon horribly and Jon spent most of his time sulking in a corner instead of interacting with Sansa) great pains of have been made of how distant Jon and Sansa have been from each other before now... where they are interacting as adults who have experienced illusion-crushing events that have changed them greatly from who they were when they left Winterfell. This can only be deliberate.

Likewise, on the show Sansa is the Stark who looks the LEAST like Jon (in the books all the other Stark children but Arya had Tully features, but on the show Robb and Bran were as dark-haired as Jon while Sansa was the only one to really not look like she could be Jon's sibling). The show has definitely been setting it up so that if that is where they're going with it, it will be as non-squicky as possible for the audience (and outside of the US cousins marrying isn't all that big a deal in the first place).

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That doesn't feel like the ending they were building towards either. That ending sounds fairly nihilistic since it implies the appocalypse. Not bittersweet.

Was the story of Noah intended to be nihilistic? The old world full of sin was washed away and the survivors rebuilt a better one. How about the Macross saga? Six billion people wiped out by the Zentraedi fleet and the world reduced to a cratered desert, but humanity defeated the Zentaedi and the survivors aboard the Macross (who were treated as outcasts and pariahs) were able to begin rebuilding the world (and follow-up stories show that they succeeded and even spread out to the stars).

It would be the same here. Bittersweet means that the heroes get a happy ending, but at a terrible cost. Does it suck for all the people who died? Yes (Bitter). But the survivors who live through the crisis are now in a position to rebuild a better world (Sweet).

[Oscirus]

Quote

It would be the same here. Bittersweet means that the heroes get a happy ending, but at a terrible cost. Does it suck for all the people who died? Yes (Bitter). But the survivors who live through the crisis are now in a position to rebuild a better world (Sweet).

In the scenario you proposed the world and life as these people have known it has ended. There is no sweet to that. that something so catastrophic had to happen to purge this world of it's sins is very nihilistic. Yes, even if that wasn't intended, the story of Noah is very nihilistic.  Upon more consideration of the new government that you have in place, I doubt that Jon would think to marry or even set up such a government. He and the survivors would  be too busy trying to rebuild to care about politics.

[Funzlerks]

I would think that you would get your house in order, metaphorically speaking, to get the world back in order.  Why wouldn't the person who is left set up a council to get more accomplished?  The bad leaders are the ones who go there own way - Cersei and Ramsay and Dany in Mereen.

[Oscirus]

Because when you're trying to rebuild the world,  setting up a small council should be the least of your worries.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Oscirus

[Chris24601]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Because when you're trying to rebuild the world,  setting up a small council should be the least of your worries.

If real history is any indication, the delegation of tasks and authority is actually the first required step in accomplishing any large task, particulary a rebuilding effort. The King can't do everything himself and a lack of organization will lead to wasted resources as people work at cross purposes (not to mention the strong preying on the weak).

Even the smallest of groups of hunter-gatherers divided up the labor and in a case where tens or even hundreds of thousands of survivors are likely then organized leadership will be critical to their survival.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Because when you're trying to rebuild the world,  setting up a small council should be the least of your worries.

What do you think he should be worrying about? Getting his people food, and shelter and knowledge?

Now wouldn't it be easier if he appointed a person to oversee each of those areas instead of trying to do it all himself, or letting everyone run around with no guidance or leadership?

It's in times of crisis and rebuilding that establishing a political infrastructure is the most important.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[FemmyV]

On 5/18/2016 at 8:16 PM, Chris24601 said:

She's spent the last two years living atop a freaking ziggurat (they call it a pyramid, but its a ziggurat by any conventional definition), crucifies people without bothering to learn whether they were innocent or guilty, also throws potentially innocent people to be burned alive and torn apart by man-eating dragons in order to enforce her will and the two key advisors most likely to make the trip to Westeros with her are a eunuch master of spies and a scarred dwarf.

Throw in on top of that she's got an irrational hatred of just about the only decent people left on the continent (she's made a point of hating on the Starks for their support of Robert against her family and wants to see them crushed right along with every other noble house she believes betrayed her family) and its all quite plain.

First off, Dany isn't guilty of anything that hasn't been done by just about any other ruler in Westeros.

• Rob Stark sent 2k of his own men to be slaughtered, to defeat Jamie.

• Stannis — fratricide, infanticide

• Robert – sent thousands to their deaths because someone stole his girlfriend, responsible for the violent deaths of a Duchess/Princess Regent and her infants.

• Aerys — been there

• Tywin / Frey / Roose Bolton - Red Wedding

     All she's done is lived separately from them, and on a much larger scale. There are two possible ways she can go: The Robespierre Route we fear, or, if — and it's a big if — if she can listen to Tyrion and give up the anger she has towards Westeros' current leading families, she'll be in a good position to set their clocks straight, or clean them out.

While Dany has every reason to hate on Baratheons (oops, not many left), Starks, Lannisters and Reeds, they, themselves have no reason to hate her. All they're likely to have is fear of retribution, and if Dany can allay that, she can get the throne. What does retribution look like? For some people, it might looks like sitting on your ass and playing with your dragons, in Mereen, while Ice Zombies chew up Westeros.

I like Dany, and she has one thing going for her that none of the current benevolent players do: she actually wants the throne. She understands that 1/2 the job is pure show business — something Tyrion, Tyrells, and maybe the HS currently get. Outwardly, she totally believes in herself as being competent for the job, and her inner fears are confined to her advisors. ETA: Marg also wants it, but she wants the role of Queen as a secondary, helper position, unlike Dany who would more likely have a King Consort.

Jon, at this time, is 100% uncomfortable with the idea of titles, especially KING. He will step up to the plate when needed, but he's not about the ceremony, not about being BMOC. Something has to happen to convince him he's the best possible person for it and that if he doesn't, all Westeros will go to hell. Something like an Ice Zombie invasion. But even then, I don't see him going for the IT unless he decides that's the only way he can attain  the manpower/firepower necessary for the war to come. Additionally, if Jon does take the throne for the war, it wouldn't surprise me if he abdicated immediately after and named a successor.  Tyrion is my #1 pick in that case.

Unless some great love affair develops, Jon / Sansa ain't gonna happen. (And if it does, FU D & D.) Not just because I dislike Sansa, but because there's no reason for it. If she winds up inheriting Winterfell, the Dale, the Riverlands, and Warden of the North, she has nothing John needs that he can't have without marrying her. Sansa is his sister or Auntie, and she will be loyal, regardless. Either he goes big for politics - Dany, Marg, some Frey girl or a Sand Snake, maybe even Asha/Yara, or he goes with Arya.

Edited May 19, 2016 by FemmyV

[nksarmi]

No no no not Ayra. They DO have a sibling vibe. And seriously Jon would be miserable with Dany - Marg is practically a black widow - the Sand Snakes are dumb, gross, caricatures on the show - Edmure already got the only decent Frey girl so don't do THAT to him.

I don't ship Sansa and Jon, but I think it's a likely pairing from GRRM and the show definitely seems to be open to the possibility. I swear that's why Jamie and Cersei are still together - so people will think "Oh well she just his cousin" if Sansa and Jon hook up.

But if not Sansa, I think the only decent options in the show are House Tarly through Sam's sister (and it could be sweet if Jon and Sam became brothers outside of the NW) or Asha via the Iron Born. I just don't see what other ok options are out there for Jon if he must do a political wedding at the end of the series.

[Conan Troutman]

9 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I just don't see what other ok options are out there for Jon if he must do a political wedding at the end of the series.

A White Walker. That story about the original NK is there for a reason. 

[Eyes High]

Quote

if she can listen to Tyrion and give up the anger she has towards Westeros' current leading families

I guess I don't see anything in Dany, either in the show or the books, to suggest that she's going to be in a mood to listen to Tyrion anytime soon. Since her MO of "Give me everything I want or I'll kill you" seems to have worked with the dothraki, she'll probably stick with what works and play the godhood/dragon card if Tyrion tries to tell her otherwise.

In the books, of course, I can see Tyrion happily harnessing Dany's destructive tendencies for his own personal profit, since he's determined to destroy Cersei (and by extension House Lannister); he would be happy siccing Dany and her dragons on the Lannisters, the Vale lords, and maybe even the Starks, depending on how enraged he is at Sansa when he gets back to Westeros. TV Tyrion is likely to be more conflicted, but if his choices are "Stick with Dany and maybe get a pardon and a lordship out of it in the end" or "Abandon Dany and see what happens," it's pretty easy to see which way he'll go.

I know a lot of readers at least like to imagine that Tyrion (in both mediums) will act to soothe Dany's anger at the Starks, but I find it easy to believe that Book Tyrion at least would throw the Starks under the bus and pour gasoline on Dany's rage to further his own interests. Book Tyrion already deprived Dany of a potentially valuable ally (Aegon) for his own reasons. Tyrion, like Littlefinger with Sansa, knows that the more isolated the target, the more the target will depend on him for assistance and advice. It's not in Tyrion's interests to make Dany a bunch of new friends, because then what would she need him for? TV Tyrion would likely balk at such tactics, so who knows whether or not he'll try to build a bridge with the Starks?

I like Dany, and she has one thing going for her that none of the current benevolent players do: she actually wants the throne.

Isn't that part of the problem? I think if the books have taught us anything, it's that anyone who wants power is automatically unfit to hold it.

Jon, at this time, is 100% uncomfortable with the idea of titles, especially KING.

I think that's what makes him suitable. He doesn't enjoy it and doesn't want it, which means that he's doing it because it's his duty, not his right...which is what Book Varys said will make Aegon a great king. (He's wrong about Aegon being great king material, but he's 100% right in my opinion that to be a good king/queen one needs to see the throne as a duty rather than a right.) 

Quote

Tyrion is my #1 pick in that case.

I can only see it being Tyrion if Jon and Dany are dead or out of the picture. I can see Dany being out of the picture (dead or retreated to Essos or whatever), but both of them? I doubt it.

Quote

Sansa is his sister or Auntie, and she will be loyal, regardless.

The argument that Jon/Sansa will be a political marriage makes no sense to me. If they do marry, I think it will be for love.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I know a lot of readers at least like to imagine that Tyrion (in both mediums) will act to soothe Dany's anger at the Starks, but I find it easy to believe that Book Tyrion at least would throw the Starks under the bus and pour gasoline on Dany's rage to further his own interests. Book Tyrion already deprived Dany of a potentially valuable ally (Aegon) for his own reasons. Tyrion, like Littlefinger with Sansa, knows that the more isolated the target, the more the target will depend on him for assistance and advice. It's not in Tyrion's interests to make Dany a bunch of new friends, because then what would she need him for? TV Tyrion would likely balk at such tactics, so who knows whether or not he'll try to build a bridge with the Starks?

As far as the show goes, the writers have really downplayed Dany having a beef with the Starks.  Given their spotty track record on foreshadowing, of course, that doesn't inherently mean anything.  But the writers have a pretty consistent track record of disliking conflict between the "good" characters, so unless the villain!Dany theories are true (and I don't personally believe them), I think whatever initial distrust there is will likely be settled quickly.

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As far as the show goes, the writers have really downplayed Dany having a beef with the Starks.  Given their spotty track record on foreshadowing, of course, that doesn't inherently mean anything.  But the writers have a pretty consistent track record of disliking conflict between the "good" characters, so unless the villain!Dany theories are true (and I don't personally believe them), I think whatever initial distrust there is will likely be settled quickly.

They've also heavily downplayed Tyrion's vindictiveness.

Book!Tyrion really holds a grudge against everyone, including Sansa, for their roles in his trial. He's much more revenge focused then anything else. I think he'd easily sacrifice anything for the chance to rape and murder Cersei. And I wouldn't put it past him to want revenge on Sansa too for abandoning him to his fate. I don't think he'd want to rape and kill her Cersei style, but I also don't think he'd go out of his way to smooth things out with Daenerys.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Oscirus]

Quote

 

What do you think he should be worrying about? Getting his people food, and shelter and knowledge?

Now wouldn't it be easier if he appointed a person to oversee each of those areas instead of trying to do it all himself, or letting everyone run around with no guidance or leadership?

 

In such an apocalypse, it's one thing to have a leader in place to set up who hunts and who gathers and what not. Quite another to  give people a bunch of pointless jobs just because that's how the old government was.
 

Quote

 

First off, Dany isn't guilty of anything that hasn't been done by just about any other ruler in Westeros.

• Rob Stark sent 2k of his own men to be slaughtered, to defeat Jamie.

• Stannis — fratricide, infanticide

• Robert – sent thousands to their deaths because someone stole his girlfriend, responsible for the violent deaths of a Duchess/Princess Regent and her infants.

• Aerys — been there

• Tywin / Frey / Roose Bolton - Red Wedding

 

1. Robert didn't raise his banners until after  Aerys came after him. Before that, he merely complained about her.  Also Elia and her children's deaths were all on Tywin. But he did support the deaths so that point still stands.

.2. other then Rob, everybody you've highlighted is seen as a villain. Which fits in the overall narrative of Dany likely being a future villain.

As for Jon, I just cant see him leaving the wall permanently.  This series has spent so much time establishing the wall is his home that it would be really weird if Jon suddenly left the wall and became king knowing the threat that's out there.

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

They've also heavily downplayed Tyrion's vindictiveness.

Book!Tyrion really holds a grudge against everyone, including Sansa, for their roles in his trial. He's much more revenge focused then anything else. I think he'd easily sacrifice anything for the chance to rape and murder Cersei. And I wouldn't put it past him to want revenge on Sansa too for abandoning him to his fate. I don't think he'd want to rape and kill her Cersei style, but I also don't think he'd go out of his way to smooth things out with Daenerys.

I'm kind of wondering what will come of Book Tyrion's thirst for revenge, since it's absent in the show so far. Will TV Tyrion have some sort of psychotic break at some point? Or will Book Tyrion's desire for revenge come to nothing, if Cersei and the other members of House Lannister die before he gets back to Westeros?

Despite her anger at the "usurper's dogs," Book Dany would likely be inclined to be sympathetic to Sansa if she knew the unvarnished story of what happened to her, as a victim of a forced marriage herself. I think Book Tyrion would throw Sansa under the bus if it benefited him, and jeopardizing a potential alliance with someone who has good reason to want Tyrion dead, both for practical purposes (no need for an annulment) and personal reasons, would indeed benefit him. Throw in Sansa being currently aligned with Littlefinger (whom Tyrion hates) and the Vale lords (whom Tyrion also hates), and I believe Book Tyrion would do everything in his power to ensure that Dany added them to her list, even if Cersei remained his top priority.

TV Tyrion and TV Sansa don't seem to bear each other any great level of ill will, so I don't know what will happen in the show. I wouldn't put it past the writers to have the characters wake up one day and "remember" that they completely hate each other...although with TV Sansa doing her current apology tour in the show apologizing for shit that didn't really warrant an apology (to Brienne for not going with her despite having good reasons not to, to Jon for being an "ass" to him, like every sister ever), maybe Tyrion will be next on her list if/when he returns to Westeros.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[Oscirus]

I doubt they'd have Sansa apologize to Tyrion, that would be stupid on so many levels and it would needlessly piss off a lot of audience members.

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As for Jon, I just cant see him leaving the wall permanently.  This series has spent so much time establishing the wall is his home that it would be really weird if Jon suddenly left the wall and became king knowing the threat that's out there.

He's already said to hell with the NW and was planning to head off to a beach until Sansa dragged him into the Stark family quarrel.  Winterfell is his home.  Obviously he's going to be involved in the fight with the White Walkers, but he's done with the Wall.

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm kind of wondering what will come of Book Tyrion's thirst for revenge, since it's absent in the show so far. Will TV Tyrion have some sort of psychotic break at some point? Or will Book Tyrion's desire for revenge come to nothing, if Cersei and the other members of House Lannister die before he gets back to Westeros?

Cersei seems reserved for Jaime to kill, but regardless, there's always the show's habit of depicting loosely the same events but with wildly different motivations and themes.  So if Tyrion were to get revenge, probably it would be presented by the show as a noble and/or necessary action.

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I doubt they'd have Sansa apologize to Tyrion, that would be stupid on so many levels and it would needlessly piss off a lot of audience members.

Judging from some of their past choices, "needlessly pissing off a lot of audience members," especially Sansa fans, isn't uppermost in the writers' concerns.

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

So if Tyrion were to get revenge, probably it would be presented by the show as a noble and/or necessary action.

Good point, although the show didn't sugarcoat his murder of Tywin (and eliminated the added provocation from the books of Tyrion learning that Tywin told Jaime to lie about Tysha being a prostitute).

I don't know how Book Tyrion's revenge would play out in the books in any event.

Tyrion: I've come back to King's Landi...What the fuck happened? Everything's burnt to a crisp!

Random dude: Oh, that was Cersei.

Tyrion: Where is--

Random dude: She's dead.

Tyrion: Fine. Jaime, then.

Random dude: Jaime's dead, too.

Tyrion: ....Genna? Daven? Kevan? Tommen? Myrcella?

Random dude: Dead, dead, dead, dead, and dead.

Tyrion: Okay, well then I claim Casterly Rock!

Random dude: That got burned too, dude.

Tyrion: ...

Dany: Tyrion, we're off to the Wall in like five minutes. Are you coming or what?

Edited May 19, 2016 by Eyes High