Eyes High March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 (edited) Well, it may be a "you have to stop this from happening" sort of scenario. Heh. "Bran, a horrible future will come to pass unless you can stop it...two of your siblings will marry!!! Oh, and the White Walkers will kill everyone you love and turn Westeros into a frozen, zombie-filled hellscape. But mostly the other thing!!!" Edited March 30, 2016 by Eyes High 6 Link to comment
nksarmi March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 LOL I don't dare ship anyone in this series because I'm mostly concerned that any character I like is going to die. A ship could only end in torment and disaster! I'm just saying that because Sansa and Jon have been portrayed as virtual strangers - an "oh he's really my cousin and he's kind of become an awesome man / oh she's not really my sister after all and she apologized about all that nasty bastard stuff and wow did she grow up beautiful" moment could happen. As far as how siblings grow up - well I have heard of step-siblings forming romantic pairings but I even think that's inappropriate (especially as a step parent) but more than that - I think that even though Jon and Sansa grew up in the same house - they did not think of each other as family. And that's important. Would anyone have really second guessed it if pre-Reek Theon and Sansa had paired up? No. Because they weren't family. I think the show has tried to do the same thing with Jon and Sansa if that's where GRRM is heading with it all. And I think if you look at the fact that Jon clearly interacted with Bran, Ayra, and Robb as siblings it becomes even more glaring that it may all be headed in that direction. 2 Link to comment
Chris24601 March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 Heh. "Bran, a horrible future will come to pass unless you can stop it...two of your siblings will marry!!! Oh, and the White Walkers will kill everyone you love and turn Westeros into a frozen, zombie-filled hellscape. But mostly the other thing!!!" Yeah... one of these things is not like the other. On the other hand, depending on who it is, the vision could also be used to get people to starting thinking about the idea of an unexpected coupling under cover of a vision of unrelated impending doom. Let's say for example that, if real, its Jon/Sansa (because Jon/Dany is too expected for many and Jon/Arya is just ICK! incarnate to most) and that it occurs after the Tower of Joy reveal that Jon is not Sansa's brother. Such a relationship is not expected by a lot of people, but once you put it into people's heads they'll start looking for signs of it in any interactions Jon and Sansa might have elsewhere in the series and if the signs could even be remotely construed romantically they'll then drop them into the heading mentally of "romance" because of the vision. Such a thing could save them a LOT of screen time in developing the desired relationship. That scenario would also add tension in that, the closer the vision couple gets to each other, the closer the audience knows the story will be getting to the Ice Zombie Palooza. The point being that I think it could be an effective tool towards certain ends if used well. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 (edited) On the other hand, depending on who it is, the vision could also be used to get people to starting thinking about the idea of an unexpected coupling under cover of a vision of unrelated impending doom. Possibly. I'm guessing that if this is true, then the pairing is likely a pretty shocking one, which is why my mind went immediately to the "incestuous Stark/Stark marriage" well. For the record, this is what prt at WOTW said (and it looks like we're going to have to wait until 6x09 or 6x10 for this one to be debunked): NK fire shot [from the March Madness promo], done in closed studio. Miguel Sapochnik episode, heavy VFX work from Spanish based firm. Bran vision, from future. NK interrupting future wedding. Expect internet explosion at the reveal of the two characters whose wedding is being interrupted. Edited March 30, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
Audreythe2nd March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 I think it's more likely to be Sansa and Littlefinger than Sansa and Jon (which would also explain the internet explosion). Sansa and Jon just doesn't seem right to me at all. I'm not even talking about the incest, but about the story. Unless it's done to broker a union between a Stark and the wildlings. But Jon isn't a wildling. Eh. Who knows if it's even true. 2 Link to comment
nksarmi March 30, 2016 Share March 30, 2016 Well a vision of a Sansa marriage would have to be a long off future event since she was legitimately wedded and bedded by Ramsey on the show. Someone has to make her a widow for any wedding vision to come true. Link to comment
Avaleigh March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 I think it's more likely to be Sansa and Littlefinger than Sansa and Jon (which would also explain the internet explosion). Sansa and Jon just doesn't seem right to me at all. I'm not even talking about the incest, but about the story. Unless it's done to broker a union between a Stark and the wildlings. But Jon isn't a wildling. Eh. Who knows if it's even true. I think Sansa/Jon is the option that best satisfies the idea of the YMB(Q). Link to comment
Audreythe2nd March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 It's so "ew." (Yeah, I know - eloquent, lol) I guess if it was written well it would be interesting, and actually give them a pretty funny and apt Cersei/Jaime parallel. But my main issue is that there has been literally no set-up for it at all. The only way I'll buy it is if they start planting the seeds next season. Which I'm not ruling out that they might. The more interesting speculation would be *why* the Night's King would be wedding crashing if this were the case. I have a few ideas but they're pretty tinfoily and would require the Jon/Sansa thing to be real in the first place. Link to comment
SeanC March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 The more interesting speculation would be *why* the Night's King would be wedding crashing if this were the case. He'll be there to object, because Sansa is already married to him. 4 Link to comment
Minneapple March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 To me, "make the Internet explode" would lean toward Jon/Sansa, simply because that would be further validation of the R+L=J theory and that surely would make the Internet explode. I maintain that in the event of a romantic storyline, they will make Kit stand on a box any time he gets near Sophie Turner. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 Is there a reason y'all are discussing that wedding foiler as if it's actually news? Link to comment
Eyes High March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 (edited) Is there a reason y'all are discussing that wedding foiler as if it's actually news? Has Sue or someone credible debunked? Otherwise, it's not clear it's a foiler. As far as I can tell, the post from prt doesn't bear the marks of the obvious "My cousin's roommate's best friend's mother edits GOT trailers for HBO and has seen all the episodes, ask me anything" or "This is totally a screencap from the new season showing Lady Stoneheart, and the fact that it looks like a photoshopped Season 3 screencap of Catelyn is irrelevant"-type foilers that would lead one to dismiss it out of hand. Besides, without bearing obvious foiler marks, for discussion purposes at least, a foiler's a spoiler until proven otherwise, and as I understand it this is the appropriate thread for spoiler discussion. Remember the collective fannish sneering at the "foiler" circulating that Sansa would go to Winterfell in Season 5 and marry Ramsay? Yeah. That. Also, last fall there was a good deal of hooting and hollering at some dude on Reddit claiming that Theon and Yara would go to Volantis in Season 6. What nonsense! What poppycock!...Except that the trailer, when paired with casting information, suggests that Yara, at least, does go to Volantis. Oops. Anyway, and I will probably be proven wrong on this, but this "foiler" has the ring of truth to me, much like the dude on Reddit (docmantistobogan) who's been posting things previously derided as "foilers" which are now looking more and more likely to be true. We've been told a few times (most recently in an interview with IHW that surfaced today) that Bran will be seeing the past, the present, and the future. There is also a Spain-based VFX firm that worked on Hardhome last year that could be doing VFX work on WW stuff this year (as prt claimed). It also seems very D&D to want to administer a shock treatment to fans with a bonkers vision of the future in the last episode or so. We've heard allllll about Bran's visions of the past through casting calls and such: little Ned, the Tower of Joy, etc. We have heard precisely nothing about any visions of the future, but we've been hearing that Bran will have visions of the future. If those visions have been filmed on a closed soundstage with only existing cast (and the NK), that would explain it. So I could see it. Edited March 31, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
ElizaD March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 It doesn't seem like there are that many rootable ships on this show. The only super popular pairing I can think of will never get married (and Bran would not be having a vision of them even if they did) and that's Jamie/Brienne. The only plausible one I can think of is Jon/Dany. Otherwise I imagine the explosion will not be a positive one. If this is true and I'm doubtful. Still fun to speculate. ASOIAF/GOT is one of the least shippy series I can think of. GRRM doesn't really do romance. There was Jon/Ygritte, but she's dead. Ned/Cat, but they're dead (and even then the romance was mostly built through memories rather than interactions). Most of the other stuff is manipulative or creepy or obviously doomed, like Tyrion/Shae or Dany/Daario. Jaime is pretty much the only character who has an actual, significant romance where he shares pagetime with a woman he knows he's in love with (but it's still twisted and with his sister) as well as an unconsummated alternative ship that's popular. Though the wedding could be a foiler or, if true, yet another crushingly depressing win for a creep like Sansa/Littlefinger, IMO it's different from a lot of the other spoilers/foilers in that it has at least some potential to be a positive event. Even if the internet initially explodes over something like Jon/Stark girl or Jon/Dany, if it's two likable characters getting together that offers at least some hope that they'll be happy for a while. Link to comment
SeanC March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 Is there a reason y'all are discussing that wedding foiler as if it's actually news? Something to talk about, if nothing else. And it's not confirmed true or false, even if I'm skeptical of it due to the delivery mechanism. Link to comment
Chris24601 March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 I'd think I'd call the potential spoiler about the wedding 'plausible' in the Mythbusters sense of the term. There is nothing particularly unbelievable about the scenario, but there's also nothing to really confirm it actually happening either. And again, depending on WHO is getting married I could definitely see some advantages to using a future vision to help set up an unexpected relationship. For example... its pretty credible at this stage that Sansa will make it to Castle Black by episode four or five at the latest and get to interact with Jon for the first time ever seen by the audience and will likely have several scenes throughout the rest of the season to establish their mutual support and taking comfort in the other (in a platonic sense). Now put those same scenes through the lens of the Tower of Joy sequence establishing Jon's true paternity and follow them up with a vision of a future wedding and you've just set up a major romance in a way that doesn't take over the Northern plot while also inviting a rewatch of previous episodes of the season once the vision is revealed because it casts any Jon/Sansa scenes in a different light. It also becomes a way to amp up future tension as the closer the couple gets to having a wedding the closer the moment of Bran's vision becomes. In traditional storytelling I'd fully expect things to play out in a way that brings us right to the moment of the vision and only diverge at the last possible moment. In which case, barring the union itself actually being some unholy abomination that the very forces of nature oppose, I think the couple shown will be a real thing and what will change is that the Night King will be stopped. I will say... IF that is where they're going with it though, I don't see Littlefinger surviving the finale. His biggest scheme at this stage basically requires his being a creeper to Sansa and if we've already seen a vision of her and Jon then Littlefinger trying to wrangle her into a marriage would lose a lot of the tension and becomes simply tedious. So IF the vision is true and its Jon/Sansa then I'd fully expect more evidence of Littlefinger's scheming throughout the season and for him to be directly involved in Rickon's death in a way that gets exposed in episode ten (and the image of Littlefinger in the Winterfell Godswood is right when he realizes that justice is finally coming for him (say in the form of Sansa sicking Shaggydog on Littlefinger). Link to comment
Eyes High March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 (edited) ASOIAF/GOT is one of the least shippy series I can think of. GRRM doesn't really do romance. Agreed. If you read GRRM's other works, there's not really that much in the way of romance. There's a lot of brooding over the ones that got away, as well as protagonists who are too fucked up physically and/or emotionally to have any kind of relationship. To be fair, though, in my experience, male sci-fi/fantasy writers on the whole and some female sci-fi/fantasy writers tend to write romance as if it were a necessary evil rather than as something desirable and compelling in of itself. Most of the other stuff is manipulative or creepy or obviously doomed, like Tyrion/Shae or Dany/Daario. Jaime is pretty much the only character who has an actual, significant romance where he shares pagetime with a woman he knows he's in love with (but it's still twisted and with his sister) as well as an unconsummated alternative ship that's popular. True. It's hard to ship something that's manipulative or creepy or obviously doomed from the get-go. To be fair, some fans like manipulative, fucked-up relationships in their storytelling--Exhibit A, the Hannibal/Will fandom--but generally, the relationships plagued by a severe age/power imbalance or abuse tend to turn off fans, and ASOIAF has no shortage of both. With all that said, aside from the canon ships (Renly/Loras, Ned/Cat, etc.) there are two ships that GRRM has made clear he's deliberately teasing in ASOIAF: Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa. (He's also claimed that Arya and Gendry have "different paths," but it looked like there might have been something there as well.) Not surprisingly, these relationships occupy the #1 and #2 slots for the most fics written about them on Archive of Our Own, an enormous Internet repository of fanfiction, so GRRM has succeeded in making those ships popular, within the fandom at least. If his two teased ships didn't manifest anywhere in the top 10, I'd say he had some issues in writing those relationships. The list is as follows: 1. Jaime/Brienne 2. Sandor/Sansa 3. Arya/Gendry 4. Ned/Cat 5. Jon/Sansa 6. Jaime/Cersei 7. Sansa/Margaery 8. Renly/Loras 9. Theon/Robb 10. Littlefinger/Sansa Jon/Sansa is the most interesting one on this list, since it involves two characters who have never interacted in the books in current time. All the other ships in this list are between characters who've had some sort of relationship in the books in "real time," be it friendship or something else. Jon/Sansa as a ship seems to be an example of rejecting Sansa's canon admirers (Sandor, Littlefinger, etc.) and substituting what the fans see as a nice, unproblematic guy who will treat Sansa well and make her happy. (Willas/Sansa is also surprisingly popular for the same reason, even though Willas has never even appeared in the books.) Though the wedding could be a foiler or, if true, yet another crushingly depressing win for a creep like Sansa/Littlefinger, IMO it's different from a lot of the other spoilers/foilers in that it has at least some potential to be a positive event. Even if the internet initially explodes over something like Jon/Stark girl or Jon/Dany, if it's two likable characters getting together that offers at least some hope that they'll be happy for a while. It could be...although if the NK does bust in on them in the vision, that could cut that joy short. Now put those same scenes through the lens of the Tower of Joy sequence establishing Jon's true paternity If a Jon/Sansa relationship is forthcoming, that might explain why we're getting the TOJ sequence now. On the other hand, it makes sense to include the sequence in a season where it seems that Bran will mostly be having visions. I will say... IF that is where they're going with it though, I don't see Littlefinger surviving the finale. If Stark forces prevail at the Battle of the Bastards and Sansa takes over Winterfell, will she keep Littlefinger around? Or will she dispose of him now that she doesn't need him anymore? Edited March 31, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 (edited) With all that said, aside from the canon ships (Renly/Loras, Ned/Cat, etc.) there are two ships that GRRM has made clear he's deliberately teasing in ASOIAF: Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa. (He's also claimed that Arya and Gendry have "different paths," but it looked like there might have been something there as well.) Not surprisingly, these relationships occupy the #1 and #2 slots for the most fics written about them on Archive of Our Own, an enormous Internet repository of fanfiction, so GRRM has succeeded in making those ships popular, within the fandom at least. If his two teased ships didn't manifest anywhere in the top 10, I'd say he had some issues in writing those relationships. The list is as follows: 1. Jaime/Brienne 2. Sandor/Sansa 3. Arya/Gendry 4. Ned/Cat 5. Jon/Sansa 6. Jaime/Cersei 7. Sansa/Margaery 8. Renly/Loras 9. Theon/Robb 10. Littlefinger/Sansa Regarding the AO3 list, worth noting that, in terms of rankings, that a couple is tagged doesn't necessarily equate to it being "shipped", per se. That's especially true of Sansa/Littlefinger (though there is a fandom that clearly likes it; "twisted" pairings like that usually do well). Ned/Cat has a really high tag count because they appear so often as a background pairing. Jon/Sansa is the most interesting one on this list, since it involves two characters who have never interacted in the books in current time. Regarding characters who haven't interacted, when looking at fanfic I've always been a bit surprised at how little you see Jon/Dany fic, particularly since that's a pairing that a lot of people think actually will happen in canon. If Stark forces prevail at the Battle of the Bastards and Sansa takes over Winterfell, will she keep Littlefinger around? Or will she dispose of him now that she doesn't need him anymore? This is an area where the writing has a fairly narrow range of options, in my view. Because if Sansa has turned against Baelish as a result of Season 5, as a lot of people (particularly those who think Sansa's Season 5 plot was a good idea) believe will happen, then he really should be through as a character this season. Far moreso than the book character, he's totally reliant on Sansa for his position, based on what the show has set up, and looks to be ending the season deep in Stark territory. This is one of the main reasons I've been skeptical of the people who believe that being raped by Ramsay is going to turn Sansa against Baelish, just because the plot consequences of that would make keeping Baelish around really difficult. If Season 6 is the end of the line for him, then fine, but if not, I predict a lot of people who are sure that Sansa is done with Littlefinger are going to be very disappointed come episode 609-610. The way the writers and actors have been eager to exonerate Baelish of any knowledge about Ramsay also plays into it, since that really feels to me like them laying the groundwork to keep them aligned for at least a bit longer -- whereas if Sansa was going to come out of this hating Baelish anyway, why would the writers care whether he knew or not? Seems like him knowing and coldbloodedly sending her there would serve to make him more despicable. But like I said, maybe this is the end of the line for Baelish and the final two seasons will be focusing on Dany's invasion, the White Walkers, etc. -- and correspondingly, whatever the denouement of this plotline in the books is has been totally junked (I've seen some people who think that Sansa/Ramsay is some kind of transposed version of what Sansa will suffer at the hands of Harry in TWOW, but that doesn't make sense to me for several reasons; one of them is that I don't think Sansa turning on Littlefinger because he's bad at playing the game of thrones really fits with the story GRRM has been telling). Edited March 31, 2016 by SeanC Link to comment
Eyes High March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 (edited) Regarding characters who haven't interacted, when looking at fanfic I've always been a bit surprised at how little you see Jon/Dany fic, particularly since that's a pairing that a lot of people think actually will happen in canon. It's out there. I don't think that Dany gets shipped as a character as much as, say, Sansa. I have my own theories as to why that might be, but that's really beyond this thread. The way the writers and actors have been eager to exonerate Baelish of any knowledge about Ramsay also plays into it, since that really feels to me like them laying the groundwork to keep them aligned for at least a bit longer That's my sense, too. Why would they be eager to relieve Baelish of responsibility if Sansa was about to get rid of him? On the other hand, if Jon and co. get rid of Ramsay and install Sansa in Winterfell, she'll have everything she wants by the end of Season 6: the Boltons gone, no marriage, the loyalty of the North and the Vale, etc. What would she need Littlefinger for then? In the books and in the show, I got the sense that fans were waiting for a Big Moment where Sansa puts all the pieces together and has a big final-scene-of-The-Usual-Suspects-type revelation about Littlefinger starting this whole mess, leading her to take her revenge against him once and for all. Maybe that's what D&D are building towards, even if GRRM isn't. Assuming that's where things are headed, if TV Sansa decides to sever ties with Littlefinger only out of anger over feeding her to Ramsay, the fans would be cheated of that big moment. So D&D will be keeping Sansa tolerant of Littlefinger until she has the big revelation about everything that he's done...again, assuming that's where things are headed. But like I said, maybe this is the end of the line for Baelish I guess I have to wonder what he'll be up to if he does stick around at Winterfell. He's not exactly in his element there. Edited March 31, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
ElizaD March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 The popularity of Jon/Sansa feels like a new thing to me; I agree that a lot of it must be the Willas-style hope that Sansa gets a happy ending with a man who doesn't have a boatload of serious issues, but I'm really surprised to see the ship that high since it's unusual enough that it has to be actively shipped, not just casually included in the background like a more canon ship such as Ned/Cat or Jaime/Brienne. Pre-show, I don't think I really saw Jon/Sansa in discussions and fics. The absence of Jon/Dany surprised me too. If Stark forces prevail at the Battle of the Bastards and Sansa takes over Winterfell, will she keep Littlefinger around? Or will she dispose of him now that she doesn't need him anymore? I think Littlefinger survives. GOT is finally introducing Euron, possibly to serve as a major villain since the Boltons have to die this season, and while the show must eventually focus on fighting the Night's King, it hasn't quite gotten there yet so Littlefinger can create tension in the Northern plot: IMO season 7 feels like the right time to get rid of Littlefinger and the Freys and position Euron/the NK as the final villains. As mentioned, the interviews have claimed Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay, which feels like a way to use the rape storyline and still have a reason to keep him around so that he and Sansa can return to their book plot like nothing happened. There's been some discussion in the past about what a shame it was that Tywin died before he got to know that there's an enemy out there that can't be backstabbed or bargained with. Maybe Littlefinger gets to have a breakdown when he realizes that the White Walkers are real and about to mess up his grand plans? 1 Link to comment
SeanC March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 That's my sense, too. Why would they be eager to relieve Baelish of responsibility if Sansa was about to get rid of him? On the other hand, if Jon and co. get rid of Ramsay and install Sansa in Winterfell, she'll have everything she wants by the end of Season 6: the Boltons gone, no marriage, the loyalty of the North and the Vale, etc. What would she need Littlefinger for then? In the books and in the show, I got the sense that fans were waiting for a Big Moment where Sansa puts all the pieces together and has a big final-scene-of-The-Usual-Suspects-type revelation about Littlefinger starting this whole mess, leading her to take her revenge against him once and for all. Maybe that's what D&D are building towards, even if GRRM isn't. Assuming that's where things are headed, if TV Sansa decides to sever ties with Littlefinger only out of anger over feeding her to Ramsay, the fans would be cheated of that big moment. So D&D will be keeping Sansa tolerant of Littlefinger until she has the big revelation about everything that he's done...again, assuming that's where things are headed. My personal opinion is that Sansa turning away from Baelish in the books is probably not going to be a single big moment (particularly not one where she suddenly learns about his role in Ned's death. which is the most common fan suggestion), but a more gradual process relating to differing philosophies -- part of the whole Stark identity theme that you find in the kids' stories. I think Sansa will learn about Baelish's actions, but more likely as a consequence of her looking into him, not as the cause for her change of heart. I think having her switch being prompted solely by learning about Ned kind of short-circuits the moral quandaries that GRRM has been building in her story. The popularity of Jon/Sansa feels like a new thing to me; I agree that a lot of it must be the Willas-style hope that Sansa gets a happy ending with a man who doesn't have a boatload of serious issues, but I'm really surprised to see the ship that high since it's unusual enough that it has to be actively shipped, not just casually included in the background like a more canon ship such as Ned/Cat or Jaime/Brienne. Pre-show, I don't think I really saw Jon/Sansa in discussions and fics. The absence of Jon/Dany surprised me too. I'm not an expert, but I think a big impetus was actually an essay on Westeros.org's Sansa "Pawn to Player" threads that laid out the case for how Sansa's experiences might have made her more sympathetic to Jon, which got a fairly wide circulation. Ironically, this essay wasn't at all shippy, and the PtP people are generally SanSan diehards -- just goes to show you can't control an idea once you put it out there. Link to comment
blixie March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 The absence of Jon/Dany surprised me too. The lack of Jon/Dany doesn't surprise me, as book readers are fairly to fiercely divided on the idea of that happening being a good thing or the ULTIMATE CLICHE OMG, as well as some thinking the Targ's incest is meant to be "bad" thing and thus they wouldn't have Jon replicate that failure and marry his Aunt by blood. Additionally it's hard to build on Jon/Dany fanfic from the show canon because there is none, whereas in the books the R+J= L thing is teased fairly early on in the books and the thematic resonance of a song of Ice and Fire being figuratively represented by a marriage (or least reunion) of Jon and Dany as family makes a certain poetic sense. And of course I'd point out that both Kit and Emilia are tiny and neither would have to stand on box to film a love scene. But then, I'm not sure why there is so much Jon/Sansa, I'm never ever going to get the people who "see" Jon/Sansa, precisely because both in the books AND on the show they have no history or canon, and what little is described in the book insinuates that Sansa isn't particularly fond of or close with Jon, or he with her. I do agree the show last season has seemed to angel for it, but again I don't know why and I could care less about them getting married. It's just such a nothingburger thing to happen. And as the biggest Arya/Gendry shipper on the internet, GRRM better be full of shit about them being on separate journeys. NOOOOOO. Bullshit! Do not foreshadow things you have no intention of delivering old man. Link to comment
Chris24601 March 31, 2016 Share March 31, 2016 Yeah, my main argument against the wedding scene if it were to be Jon/Sansa is that I think Littlefinger has about one more season of bastardry left in him with his probably playing a key role in the victory over the Boltons and Rickon's death likely creating a succession crisis he could exploit there are good story-driven reasons to keep him around whether Sansa likes him or not (and as he is Lord Protector of the Vale, he can't just be executed for no reason... proof of some sort high crime, like conspiring to murder King Rickon... would be needed). My hunch is that D&D will want to time certain events so they roughly coincide and one set of those I think will be Dany reaching King's Landing matched with either the White Walkers breaching the Wall (if that does not happen at the end of this season) or the Walkers reaching Winterfell. If so, then I think they're going to need to stall the Northern plot next season while Dany gets to Westeros and up to King's Landing and the best way I can think of to stall the North would be a succession crisis storyline (a split in the Northern Lords over whether Sansa as the trueborn daughter or Jon as the only known son should rule Winterfell being an easy option to foresee) which plays into keeping Littlefinger. By the same token I could see them wanting to hold off on Littlefinger's demise to coincide with Cersei's demise (both of which would make sense for the end of season seven to me) in a similar paralleling event. So basically, the likelihood of Littlefinger's survival into next season is the biggest argument I have against the W3 (White Walker Wedding) being true. Because I think, if true, neither Sansa/Littlefinger nor Jon/Dany would be unexpected enough to make the internet explode (people may dread the former, but given the show's track record I can't see it as something shocking enough to blow up the internet and WAY too many people I know just flat out expect Jon/Dany co-ruling a happy united kingdom to be the ending). Which leaves a Jon/Sansa wedding to my mind and a vision of that kills the potential schemes for Littlefinger dead to the point he can no longer advance the story (as others have pointed out, show Littlefinger has way too much of his influence via his investment in Sansa... without some power over her he's irrelevant). So yeah, either the wedding vision is true and Littlefinger's story ends this season or its false and Littlefinger survives into season seven. I can't see a scenario where both the vision is true and Littlefinger survives. Link to comment
Audreythe2nd April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 It would be funny if this whole time, Jaime and Cersei's relationship was basically just a massive hanging-gun for the incest pairing that would be sticking around at the end (so we could get used to the idea, basically). So Jaime/Cersei crumbles and falls, and then the storytellers are just like, "Well, that was a tumultuous six years with that pairing! Bet you like not having to watch that anymore, huh? So...in comparison, a little cousin-cousin-but-used-to-think-they-were-siblings action is going to be a piece of cake for seasoned viewers like you. You guys are pros, you got this. Enjoy! *runs for the hills*" There's a certain twisted bait and switch there that I can enjoy, I suppose. Lol. 2 Link to comment
Hecate7 April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 (edited) The lack of Jon/Dany doesn't surprise me, as book readers are fairly to fiercely divided on the idea of that happening being a good thing or the ULTIMATE CLICHE OMG, as well as some thinking the Targ's incest is meant to be "bad" thing and thus they wouldn't have Jon replicate that failure and marry his Aunt by blood. Additionally it's hard to build on Jon/Dany fanfic from the show canon because there is none, whereas in the books the R+J= L thing is teased fairly early on in the books and the thematic resonance of a song of Ice and Fire being figuratively represented by a marriage (or least reunion) of Jon and Dany as family makes a certain poetic sense. And of course I'd point out that both Kit and Emilia are tiny and neither would have to stand on box to film a love scene. But then, I'm not sure why there is so much Jon/Sansa, I'm never ever going to get the people who "see" Jon/Sansa, precisely because both in the books AND on the show they have no history or canon, and what little is described in the book insinuates that Sansa isn't particularly fond of or close with Jon, or he with her. I do agree the show last season has seemed to angel for it, but again I don't know why and I could care less about them getting married. It's just such a nothingburger thing to happen. And as the biggest Arya/Gendry shipper on the internet, GRRM better be full of shit about them being on separate journeys. NOOOOOO. Bullshit! Do not foreshadow things you have no intention of delivering old man. How was it foreshadowed? I've never been able to get my mind around people thinking that Gendry/Arya is a thing, especially in this series. That's like thinking Davos/Shireen was foreshadowed. A child is briefly cared for by an adult or older child with whom s/he becomes friends--this isn't necessarily a sign s/he is going to marry that adult or older child. They seem to be on separate journeys to me. I don't see Arya pairing off with the Hound either. Or Jaquen H'gar, or Syrio Forel, or Hot Pie even. I don't think Arya is the pairing off type, and that's half the point of Arya. She's not a sweet little tomboy, and her arc isn't about vindicating tomboys over girly-girls and getting a nice boy. She's an assassin at age 12. Getting married is the last thing on her mind. Edited April 1, 2016 by Hecate7 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 I think Arya probably has a small crush on Gendry in the books even if she doesn't realize it. She spends a fair amount of time thinking about him, she cares what he thinks about her and doesn't want him thinking she's this uptight highborn girl, she chooses to share her food with him, his strong muscles catch her eye--I can see why people think there were a couple of hints, but agree that Arya and Gendry are unlikely to ever be a thing at least not in the books. I personally don't think that Arya will end up with anyone but if everyone has to be happily paired off, I've always like the idea of Arya and Edric Dayne. I think Arya would enjoy living in Dorne and being in a place where women have more options and power. Link to comment
SeanC April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 I think Arya probably has a small crush on Gendry in the books even if she doesn't realize it. She spends a fair amount of time thinking about him, she cares what he thinks about her and doesn't want him thinking she's this uptight highborn girl, she chooses to share her food with him, his strong muscles catch her eye--I can see why people think there were a couple of hints, but agree that Arya and Gendry are unlikely to ever be a thing at least not in the books. Also, her reaction to Bella hitting on Gendry while they visit the Peach. I agree it's not likely to come to anything, though. Link to comment
nksarmi April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 Ok fine, I will raise my hand as someone who thought Gendry and Arya might be a cute pairing someday when she was more grown up. I don't know the age differences between the actors, but I thought there was something sweet there that could turn into something more someday. Perhaps it's because they acted like equals rather than an "almost adult" and a "child." In regards to Jon and Sansa, I don't really "ship" them but after reading people here who argue in favor of it AND finally seeing the original outline for the books - well, I just became convinced it could happen. For those who are unspoiled in that way BUT have gleamed onto Jon not really being Sansa's sibling - I think it's just a matter of wanting two of the more (if not only) likable characters left to end up together. Personally, I have never really liked Sansa but I do love Jon. If her story is to grow beyond prejudices and learn to see beyond titles like bastard and prince and fall for someone who is truly noble and worthy despite having the wrong "labels" than I think that must be Jon - he's really the "hero" of the story. And Sophie makes Sansa likable for me in a way her book counterpart just hasn't yet so I guess I'd be ok with Jon ending up with her if that ends up being what he wants. At one time, I thought it would be Jon and Dany, but after reading a great speculation that those two could end up in war against each other and coming to dislike Dany since she decided to settle in Meereen - I'm rather over that pairing. I'd rather Jon not get saddled with her crazy, high maintenance ass in marriage. They can fight or rule together in some way - but please not marriage. 2 Link to comment
Chris24601 April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 In regards to Jon and Sansa, I don't really "ship" them but after reading people here who argue in favor of it AND finally seeing the original outline for the books - well, I just became convinced it could happen. For those who are unspoiled in that way BUT have gleamed onto Jon not really being Sansa's sibling - I think it's just a matter of wanting two of the more (if not only) likable characters left to end up together. That is a big part of the appeal to a lot of people who like the pairing, but there are some other things that make it both a good narrative choice and a good pairing withing the political climate of the story as well. Narratively speaking, both Jon and Sansa started out in the same place in terms of their world views; they both believed in the old songs and stories about knights and princesses. While their journeys took them a thousand miles from Winterfell in opposite directions, their experiences have also been teaching them the same life lessons; that those pretty songs and stories were actually morally compromising and blood drenched affairs that no one would actually want to live through. Along the way Jon has grown from Bastard to "Knight" to "Lord (Commander)" while Sansa has gone from a sheltered "princess" to political hostage to masquerading as a bastard herself. The result is that there would be a fair bit of narrative power to bringing the two of them back together; both stripped of the prejudices and illusions about the world, and salvaging something good from it. There's also a particular irony to the fact that the events they've been going through are more than likely going to become the heart of THE SONG that in ages to come in Westeros and beyond will eclipse all the other stories that have come before it (the irony being that everything they've both been through they're both well and truly done with stories and songs and all the assorted illusions). Politically speaking, once Jon's paternity is revealed and Rickon is dead, Jon and Sansa become each others' best political match. In the books, Robb's will (if it ever turns up) makes Jon the Lord of Winterfell, but the fact that he's NOT actually Ned's son and probably still a bastard regardless will not sit well with many in the North and the Dunk & Egg stories tell of a point where the Stark line had to continue through a woman... so the idea that some might be willing to back Sansa as Ned's trueborn child would cause there to be tensions in the North. On the show, Sansa will be the Lady of Winterfell (until Bran returns... and even then she and her children would still be the Heir as its been heavily implied that Bran's injuries will prevent him from having children). But she's also a girl and while Jon is a bastard (or having to go back to Ned's father for the line to continue) he's also a man and a proven military commander in a time when military strength is going to be needed. So regardless, the choice of either to rule Winterfell would be contested to some degree or another. A further factor in both versions is the potential for Sansa to end up as another Lady Hornwood; married to an opportunist who intends to be rid of her at the earliest opportunity. By the same token, because of his claim to Winterfell (in Robb's Will), Jon would have every reason to worry about any potential husband of Sansa's trying to ensure his untimely demise and thereby gain control of the North. Basically, each one needs Sansa to have a spouse they actually trust to not betray either of them and there are precious few people on that list. Which is why Jon and Sansa is unexpected, but solid way to solve both issues at once. Jon and Sansa are already family of a sort and the marriage of Jon to Sansa ensures that any children will be Ned's grandchildren to ensure the proper chain of succession. 2 Link to comment
Hecate7 April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 I think Arya probably has a small crush on Gendry in the books even if she doesn't realize it. She spends a fair amount of time thinking about him, she cares what he thinks about her and doesn't want him thinking she's this uptight highborn girl, she chooses to share her food with him, his strong muscles catch her eye--I can see why people think there were a couple of hints, but agree that Arya and Gendry are unlikely to ever be a thing at least not in the books. I personally don't think that Arya will end up with anyone but if everyone has to be happily paired off, I've always like the idea of Arya and Edric Dayne. I think Arya would enjoy living in Dorne and being in a place where women have more options and power. She may have had a crush, but she also may simply have been Martin's vehicle for describing Gendry so we could see him. If she has to pair with anyone, I actually think Jaime Lannister or Tyrion Lannister were foreshadowed the most. But I don't see it happening. I think one thing we're all forgetting here, when we consider pairings, is that Jon/Sansa and Jon/Danaerys, for example, are not mutually exclusive. People die a lot in this story, and so it could be Jon/Danaerys, Danaerys dies, then it's Jon/Sansa. Meanwhile Sana by then has already been Sansa/Joffrey, Sansa/Tyrion, and Sansa/Ramsey, and may also be in several more pairings before Sansa/Jon, if it happens. We may get Danaerys/Tyrion before then, too. GOT isn't less shippy than other books--it just doesn't present any pairing as final or permanent or happy. Link to comment
Avaleigh April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 She may have had a crush, but she also may simply have been Martin's vehicle for describing Gendry so we could see him. If she has to pair with anyone, I actually think Jaime Lannister or Tyrion Lannister were foreshadowed the most. But I don't see it happening. I think one thing we're all forgetting here, when we consider pairings, is that Jon/Sansa and Jon/Danaerys, for example, are not mutually exclusive. People die a lot in this story, and so it could be Jon/Danaerys, Danaerys dies, then it's Jon/Sansa. Meanwhile Sana by then has already been Sansa/Joffrey, Sansa/Tyrion, and Sansa/Ramsey, and may also be in several more pairings before Sansa/Jon, if it happens. We may get Danaerys/Tyrion before then, too. GOT isn't less shippy than other books--it just doesn't present any pairing as final or permanent or happy. Really? How so? I know you say you don't see it happening but I'm curious what foreshadowing you're referring to since I can't come up with anything for either pairing. The only reason why Tyrion/Arya has ever gone through my head is because of the original outline but I certainly don't think it's on the table now, show or books. I agree with you that it's entire possible that there will be more than one person for certain characters. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High April 1, 2016 Share April 1, 2016 (edited) On Arya/Gendry, it's a fan theory that the moment in the books when the KM offers to hook Arya up with any number of options, including marriage to an "honest apprentice boy," and when Arya firmly thinks that she wants none of that, is GRRM saying that Arya/Gendry is never going to happen. To be fair, GRRM loves to throw his readers off the scent. Even if Arya/Gendry were endgame, I doubt he'd come out and say it, so I don't know how much weight we can place on his statement about separate paths or whatever. As for Season 6, one of the things that's interesting to me is that for all the spoilers we have--and we have a lot--there are still some really big questions. King's Landing past 6x06 is a mystery; all we know is that Jaime and Bronn clear out, and that there is some version of the little birds scene. but with different victims. It looks like the siege of Riverrun is going to be a more elaborate set piece than in the books and it's taking place towards the end of the season, which leads me to think something dramatic is going to happen there. I think Gwendoline Christie said something about there being more interactions between characters who haven't interacted before. If that's in reference to Brienne's own arc, she could be referring to Theon, but, if not, it could suggest that Brienne does go to Castle Black, since she's interacted with Jaime and Sansa before. (I suppose Brienne might also interact with the Blackfish at Riverrun.) Edited April 1, 2016 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
Hecate7 April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 Really? How so? I know you say you don't see it happening but I'm curious what foreshadowing you're referring to since I can't come up with anything for either pairing. The only reason why Tyrion/Arya has ever gone through my head is because of the original outline but I certainly don't think it's on the table now, show or books. I agree with you that it's entire possible that there will be more than one person for certain characters. Arya is very curious to see Tyrion, on the show. Her first line I think is "where's the Imp?" As the story unfolds, we see that Arya and Tyrion share a certain lack of enthusiasm about their birthrights, and a certain anachronistic and flexible way of looking at the world. Both try to treat their servants as equals. Both are confused about their privilege. Tyrion thinks Shae is his real partner, when in fact she's an employee. Arya thinks she can bring Gendry home and they'll be allowed to be friends, rather than Gendry being relegated to the stables and put in his place. Both rebel against their families, both are on the run, and both end up in Essos. Although I think Arya is far more likely to stick Tyrion with the pointy end than actually marry him, she is more likely than most people to look past the dwarfism and Lannister house, and find commonality with him. Arya hiding in the mouth of the dragon, her brush with the theatre troupe and experience with the actor playing Tyrion...all coyly hint at something. Jaime is foreshadowed when Arya picks up the one-eared tom and kisses him--he is very analagous to that cat, "the real king," Balerion. His relief that Stark's men found her first, on the show Tywin saying Arya reminds him of Cersei, There are other moments--I know this is very weak and sketchy stuff here. Link to comment
Eyes High April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 (edited) One thing that occurred to me is that if some version of the Pink Letter is going to drive Jon and Sansa's plotlines in Season 6, and if Ramsay's voiceover from the Stark teaser ("Winterfell is mine, come and see") is from the show's version of the Pink Letter, then doesn't it follow that Roose is going to get killed pretty fairly early in the season, so that Ramsay's Pink Letter has time to travel north and set in motion the events leading up to the Battle of the Bastards (or, as I'd rather call it, Snowbowl)? That's assuming Ramsay is telling the truth when he claims that Winterfell is his, of course. Even though this show plays fast and loose with travel times, that letter still needs to make its way north. We know that Roose and Ramsay have scenes in 6x02, presumably over Sansa's disappearance and Ramsay's soldiers' failure to recover her. Maybe they get into an argument and Ramsay murders Roose? I'd be sad to lose Michael McElhatton--he's been an enormous asset to the show, in my opinion, and one of the more subtle performances in a show where there is a lot of scenery chewing--but Roose is going to have to clear out to set the stage for Ramsay and Jon's showdown, and I imagine it will be sooner rather than later for the reasons I mentioned. Based on the promotional photos showing Brienne standing inside a building with snow on the door in 6x04, and of Melisandre on horseback with what appears to be the hem of a Sansa-type gown in the shot in 6x05, it's possible that Sansa ends up at Castle Black fairly early on in the season but also departs midway through the season. Assuming Sansa does make it to Castle Black, this is a possible outline for how things go in the Northern storyline: -Sansa and Theon are bailed out by Brienne and Pod -Davos successfully protects Jon's body -Melisandre successfully resurrects Jon -the mutineers are executed and Jon reclaims Castle Black -at some point, I imagine early on in the season, Littlefinger at Runestone convinces the Vale lords to provide him with troops to head north to take Winterfell -Brienne and Pod accompany Sansa to Castle Black, and whatever has gone down, Brienne feels comfortable leaving Sansa there, so I suspect Jon will be large and in charge when Brienne, Pod and Sansa arrive -Brienne and Pod head south -Sansa doesn't stick around at Castle Black and heads out midseason, possibly prompted by Jon's receipt of the Pink Letter? -Sansa may or may not be present at that meeting where the northern lords are arguing over whether to support Ramsay (I'm thinking a main character like Jon or Sansa needs to be present) -Jon convinces a few Northern houses and the wildlings to support him; the Karstarks side with Ramsay (and possibly the Umbers as well) -Sansa and Littlefinger show up at the Battle of the Bastards at a critical moment to bail Jon's forces out -Ramsay retreats to Winterfell, where he's confronted by Jon, Sansa, and Littlefinger, and a giant busts through the Winterfell gates -Ramsay dies, and Sansa reclaims Winterfell (the bit with Littlefinger in the godswood from the trailer could be from 6x10) Jaime is foreshadowed when Arya picks up the one-eared tom and kisses him--he is very analagous to that cat, "the real king," Balerion. That cat is described as a black bastard, though. Arya kissing him sounds a lot more like Jon/Arya foreshadowing. Jon is "the real king of the castle." Arya hiding in the mouth of the dragon, her brush with the theatre troupe and experience with the actor playing Tyrion...all coyly hint at something. It could be. To be fair, if I'm going to take Jon/Arya seriously based on the outline, it only makes sense to consider Tyrion/Arya (at least in terms of Tyrion falling for Arya) seriously as well. I say this firmly tongue in cheek, but in between Tysha, Shae, and Lemore, Tyrion definitely has a thing for brunettes. Speaking of the outline and of Jon/Arya, I was watching a recent interview with GRRM, and he had this to say: I know the ending in broad strokes, but broad strokes are just broad strokes and the devil's in the details, so as I write these last two books, I'll be moving toward the endings that I've known since 1991, but many of the fine details may be moved around and changed and things like that. I think this rules out Jon/Sansa, since even as of 1993 GRRM was planning a Jon/Arya love story and a Jon parentage reveal. Also, in the 1993 outline, Sansa's a much more peripheral character than the big five (Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, and Dany). It doesn't mean that ASOIAF Sansa is going to die, necessarily, but I think it does rule her out as winding up as Jon's endgame queen or having a similarly prominent role in the ending, since that wasn't something GRRM had in mind in 1993. Of course, given that the ending is likely going to have a lot to do with magic and the war against the WW, and since Sansa is an unmagical character in the books at present, that's not all that surprising. The other important thing to consider is that if GRRM has had the "broad strokes" of the ending in mind since 1991 and intends to adhere to that ending, and if he deemed Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Dany, and Arya immune from getting killed off in 1993, then doesn't it mean that those five characters won't die in ASOIAF, either? Edited April 2, 2016 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 (edited) Eyes High, I agree with most of your outline for the Northern storyline of season 6, but I think: -The mutineers will die in a fight. -Jon and Sansa will decide split like this: while Jon is organizing the Free Folk with the help of Tormund, Sansa will go with Davos to a Northern Lords meeting to talk with them. -Littlefinger will arrive with the Vale army without Sansa, because she will remain with the North houses until the big battle happens and will meet with Petyr only after the battle. About the GRRM interview, well, maybe he is talking about things like what happens with the Others, or who is sitting on the Iron Throne at the end, or who survive and who dies, and not so much about who marries who. It is kinda hard to guess what he is really thinking when he said that, it could mean so many things. Edited April 2, 2016 by OhOkayWhat 1 Link to comment
Chris24601 April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 One thing that occurred to me is that if some version of the Pink Letter is going to drive Jon and Sansa's plotlines in Season 6, and if Ramsay's voiceover from the Stark teaser ("Winterfell is mine, come and see") is from the show's version of the Pink Letter, then doesn't it follow that Roose is going to get killed pretty fairly early in the season, so that Ramsay's Pink Letter has time to travel north and set in motion the events leading up to the Battle of the Bastards (or, as I'd rather call it, Snowbowl)? That's assuming Ramsay is telling the truth when he claims that Winterfell is his, of course. Even though this show plays fast and loose with travel times, that letter still needs to make its way north. We know that Roose and Ramsay have scenes in 6x02, presumably over Sansa's disappearance and Ramsay's soldiers' failure to recover her. Maybe they get into an argument and Ramsay murders Roose? I'd be sad to lose Michael McElhatton--he's been an enormous asset to the show, in my opinion, and one of the more subtle performances in a show where there is a lot of scenery chewing--but Roose is going to have to clear out to set the stage for Ramsay and Jon's showdown, and I imagine it will be sooner rather than later for the reasons I mentioned. Based on the promotional photos showing Brienne standing inside a building with snow on the door in 6x04, and of Melisandre on horseback with what appears to be the hem of a Sansa-type gown in the shot in 6x05, it's possible that Sansa ends up at Castle Black fairly early on in the season but also departs midway through the season. Assuming Sansa does make it to Castle Black, this is a possible outline for how things go in the Northern storyline: -Sansa and Theon are bailed out by Brienne and Pod -Davos successfully protects Jon's body -Melisandre successfully resurrects Jon -the mutineers are executed and Jon reclaims Castle Black -at some point, I imagine early on in the season, Littlefinger at Runestone convinces the Vale lords to provide him with troops to head north to take Winterfell -Brienne and Pod accompany Sansa to Castle Black, and whatever has gone down, Brienne feels comfortable leaving Sansa there, so I suspect Jon will be large and in charge when Brienne, Pod and Sansa arrive -Brienne and Pod head south -Sansa doesn't stick around at Castle Black and heads out midseason, possibly prompted by Jon's receipt of the Pink Letter? -Sansa may or may not be present at that meeting where the northern lords are arguing over whether to support Ramsay (I'm thinking a main character like Jon or Sansa needs to be present) -Jon convinces a few Northern houses and the wildlings to support him; the Karstarks side with Ramsay (and possibly the Umbers as well) -Sansa and Littlefinger show up at the Battle of the Bastards at a critical moment to bail Jon's forces out -Ramsay retreats to Winterfell, where he's confronted by Jon, Sansa, and Littlefinger, and a giant busts through the Winterfell gates -Ramsay dies, and Sansa reclaims Winterfell (the bit with Littlefinger in the godswood from the trailer could be from 6x10) About the only thing I'd change in your outline is I think it will either be... A) Sansa will actually be the one to go to the Northern Lords (likely with Davos, since Liam has been praising Sansa's storyline this season... so Davos being with Sansa makes sense) while Jon (likely with Mel) will be the one to form up the Wildlings. -or- B) The Wildlings don't need to be formed up all that much and Jon, Sansa, Davos and Mel all head out together to rally the Northern lords against the Boltons. Sansa proves herself better at negotiation with the Northern lords while Jon proves better at leading the troops while Davos and Mel play the angel and the devil on their respective shoulders. Of course, given that the ending is likely going to have a lot to do with magic and the war against the WW, and since Sansa is an unmagical character in the books at present, that's not all that surprising. Honestly, the sense I've been getting from the books is that too much magic and the extremes of Ice and Fire are the PROBLEM with the world and what's going to needed to fix it is a balance between the two (Jon being the key because he's already a balance of Ice/Stark and Fire/Targaryan). In which case, Jon going with someone like Mel or Dany would throw off the balance while some sort of Night Queen figure would throw it the other way. By contrast an unmagical girl (or one whose only connection to northern magic was severed with a magical fire-linked sword) is just the sort of spouse to maintain the balance between the extremes. It should also be pointed out that while GRRM has said that he's moving towards his original ending, that doesn't mean all things will be identical. For example, one big aspect that he needed for his original story was going to be a five year gap (which would have aged Arya up to 16-17) that the narrative forced him to leave out. So presuming the tormented by love siblings who turn out to be cousins with Tyrion as the third leg of the love triangle is still in the story at all, perhaps instead of trying to force that onto a twelve year old, he just switched it to the older Stark sister... the one already married to Tyrion (there's your 'love' triangle) and who on the show is going to be headed up North to be reunited with the half-"brother" she's not seen in years (and while the circumstances will likely be different, I'm also expecting a Jon/Sansa reunion late in WoW as events in the Vale force her back up to the North and into Jon's orbit). Link to comment
FemmyV April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 If that spoiler is true then Jon/Arya would be the most likely to make the audience explode in a bad way. I'm not sure about Jon/Sansa because I've spent so much time on this forum where that pairing seems to be generally accepted as a possibility although not universally liked. I could see the larger audience exploding though. I think there is a specific group Sansa fans who accept it as a possibility because they're shipping Jon/Sansa. The rest of us, otoh ... 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 2, 2016 Share April 2, 2016 (edited) It should also be pointed out that while GRRM has said that he's moving towards his original ending, that doesn't mean all things will be identical. For example, one big aspect that he needed for his original story was going to be a five year gap (which would have aged Arya up to 16-17) that the narrative forced him to leave out. So presuming the tormented by love siblings who turn out to be cousins with Tyrion as the third leg of the love triangle is still in the story at all, perhaps instead of trying to force that onto a twelve year old, he just switched it to the older Stark sister...That reasoning assumes that GRRM views the two Stark girls as interchangeable, with their character development so unimportant that key storylines can be traded off between them. That might make sense for third tier characters like the Sand Snakes, but not the two Stark girl POVs. Also, it seems that there is a real possibility that whoever Jon ends up with is going to be the endgame queen. If GRRM planned that person to be Arya in 1993, and I'd argue that the outline suggests that he did, do you really think he'd change it to Sansa just because he scrapped the time jump? GRRM was very anxious for Arya to hit puberty, but he has said in not so many words that he's not going to let the lack of a time jump affect his plans ("if a 12 year old has to save the world, so be it"). If he always intended Jon to wind up with Arya, and he seemed to want that in 1993, he's not going to let the lack of a time jump stop him, or change it to Sansa (a much less prominent character than Arya in 1993) just because of the age issue. I'd suggest that GRRM gives precisely zero fucks about making his audience uncomfortable. If he has to show a barely pubescent Arya and an older Jon falling in love, that's precisely what he will do. ASOIAF is the same world where Tyrion and Tysha (both 13) were madly in love, where 12 year old Sansa fantasizes about Loras Tyrell, and where Lyanna was all of 14 when she ran off with Rhaegar. Edited April 2, 2016 by Eyes High 3 Link to comment
FemmyV April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) Agreed, pretty much. I am leaning towards Jon & Dany for the foiler wedding, nonetheless. Politically, it makes more sense than anything, they'll look stunning together, and it doesn't have to be a love match for either of them. Edited April 3, 2016 by FemmyV 1 Link to comment
nksarmi April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 That reasoning assumes that GRRM views the two Stark girls as interchangeable, with their character development so unimportant that key storylines can be traded off between them. That might make sense for third tier characters like the Sand Snakes, but not the two Stark girl POVs. Also, it seems that there is a real possibility that whoever Jon ends up with is going to be the endgame queen. If GRRM planned that person to be Arya in 1993, and I'd argue that the outline suggests that he did, do you really think he'd change it to Sansa just because he scrapped the time jump? GRRM was very anxious for Arya to hit puberty, but he has said in not so many words that he's not going to let the lack of a time jump affect his plans ("if a 12 year old has to save the world, so be it"). If he always intended Jon to wind up with Arya, and he seemed to want that in 1993, he's not going to let the lack of a time jump stop him, or change it to Sansa (a much less prominent character than Arya in 1993) just because of the age issue. I'd suggest that GRRM gives precisely zero fucks about making his audience uncomfortable. If he has to show a barely pubescent Arya and an older Jon falling in love, that's precisely what he will do. ASOIAF is the same world where Tyrion and Tysha (both 13) were madly in love, where 12 year old Sansa fantasizes about Loras Tyrell, and where Lyanna was all of 14 when she ran off with Rhaegar. I don't think GRRM would sub Sansa in for Ayra just because of the age factor - but I get the feeling that both sisters have diverged significantly from his original outline. He has repeatedly said that he's a writer who cultivates his story - a gardener. In my opinion, from the time he decided to put Ayra in the House of White and Black, he abandoned the idea of putting her with Jon (probably before that). I can't see how he could even begin to write it so that she realizes she's been in love with him all this time or any other such nonsense. Sansa who I feel started out closer to her original outline character, also feels as if she has diverged from that path. Even if you substitute LF in for Geoffrey - I don't think Sansa has any real feelings for him and I can't believe if given the choice she would betray her family for him. I think Sansa has just taken a much differnet path for him than the one he originally anticipated for her and as a result - I believe she is now on the table not only as the YMB(Q) but also as the woman whom the hero will end up with. And what little we've seen from the show seems to validate this. 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) I don't think GRRM would sub Sansa in for Ayra just because of the age factor - but I get the feeling that both sisters have diverged significantly from his original outline. He has repeatedly said that he's a writer who cultivates his story - a gardener. In my opinion, from the time he decided to put Ayra in the House of White and Black, he abandoned the idea of putting her with Jon (probably before that). I can't see how he could even begin to write it so that she realizes she's been in love with him all this time or any other such nonsense. Sansa who I feel started out closer to her original outline character, also feels as if she has diverged from that path. There are undoubtedly large divergences between the 1993 outline and ASOIAF: Jaime was split into two characters, for starters. There are large divergences for Arya and Sansa's storyline as well. However, GRRM has said that he intends to adhere to the endings he had in 1991. Whatever changes he has made between the outline and ASOIAF will not affect the broad strokes of the 1991 ending. For example, it doesn't matter at least where the ending's concerned that Jaime has been split into two people, since both of them will probably be dead by the time the ending rolls around. Sansa's role has been considerably expanded since the outline, but whatever happens to Sansa in ASOIAF will not change the ending GRRM had in mind since 1991, which rules out Jon/Sansa and also rules out Sansa ending up as endgame Westeros queen to anyone, in my opinion.GRRM has stated that he is moving towards the broad strokes of the 1991 ending. He says that the devil is in the details, but swapping out one Stark girl for another is only a minor detail if Arya and Sansa are completely interchangeable, which of course they are not. The other thing to remember is that in 1993, and likely by extension in 1991, GRRM saw five characters as having special status: the story would revolve around their journeys, and they would survive the whole series. These characters were Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Sansa was left off that list. She was a second tier character in 1993 whose main character point was her betrayal of the Starks, and unless you buy that she'd just let Jaime murder her son, it seems possible that she was murdered by Jaime fairly early on. If GRRM is still barreling towards the ending he had in mind in 1991, whatever it is, Sansa won't be a part of it in any meaningful way. Doesn't mean that she'll die, necessarily, but it does mean, I think, that she won't be Jon's significant other or queen, or indeed anyone's queen. I also doubt she'll be holding Winterfell at the end of the story, which seems buttressed by Bran ditching the cave in Season 6. Edited April 3, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
ElizaD April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 The other thing to remember is that in 1993, and likely by extension in 1991, GRRM saw five characters as having special status: the story would revolve around their journeys, and they would survive the whole series. These characters were Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Sansa was left off that list. She was a second tier character in 1993. So if GRRM is still barreling towards the ending he had in mind in 1991, whatever it is, Sansa won't be a part of it in any meaningful way. I'm not ready to predict Jon/Sansa, but I could see it happening without a major revision of the original ending being required if proto-Jon didn't have proto-Dany or proto-Arya as his wife in the last chapter: that might be too big to change if GRRM still plans to have the same ending. With no Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya marriage, the original five could still have much of their endgame and final fate intact even if GRRM had added Jon/Sansa the way he added Jaime/Cersei. Sansa could have a role in the Riverlands/Vale or as Jon's wife and be a character who supports the stories of others (most likely Jon, marriage or no marriage, since he's heading south and she's likely going north in the books too) without being key to winning the war, as I suppose the five were intended to be. If Jon becoming king or Lord of Winterfell was more important than whether he's married or not, Jon/Sansa, as a protagonist/supporting character match, could be an addition that doesn't break the ending; if he was to be king with Dany as his queen or Lord of Winterfell with Arya as his wife, Jon/Sansa would be a bigger departure from the original plan. 1 Link to comment
Eyes High April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) I'm not ready to predict Jon/Sansa, but I could see it happening without a major revision of the original ending being required if proto-Jon didn't have proto-Dany or proto-Arya as his wife in the last chapter: that might be too big to change if GRRM still plans to have the same ending. With no Jon/Dany or Jon/Arya marriage, the original five could still have much of their endgame and final fate intact even if GRRM had added Jon/Sansa the way he added Jaime/Cersei. Sansa could have a role in the Riverlands/Vale or as Jon's wife and be a character who supports the stories of others (most likely Jon, marriage or no marriage, since he's heading south and she's likely going north in the books too) without being key to winning the war, as I suppose the five were intended to be. If Jon becoming king or Lord of Winterfell was more important than whether he's married or not, Jon/Sansa, as a protagonist/supporting character match, could be an addition that doesn't break the ending; if he was to be king with Dany as his queen or Lord of Winterfell with Arya as his wife, Jon/Sansa would be a bigger departure from the original plan. In 1993, though, Jon's love story with Arya was a big part of their character arcs, their conflict over it would be resolved with the revelation of Jon's parentage, and both characters survive the series. How does that add up to Jon's pairing with another character being a minor detail? Edited April 3, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
Chris24601 April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 That reasoning assumes that GRRM views the two Stark girls as interchangeable, with their character development so unimportant that key storylines can be traded off between them. That might make sense for third tier characters like the Sand Snakes, but not the two Stark girl POVs. It doesn't require them to be interchangeable, it just requires GRRM to change his mind about certain things in the TWO AND A HALF DECADES its been since he started outlining the story. Heck, the story already started to diverge as early as the first book. I'd argue that the change of course in this regard probably started around a decade and a half ago when GRRM started laying out A Feast For Crows and realized he'd have to leave out his planned five-year time jump for the story to make any sense. That's the point where Arya's course veers into her training at the House of Black and White (the point that @nksarmi above pointed out as the point where he probably abandoned putting her together with Jon) and when Sansa starts her training in the political arts in earnest and also has her thoughts about how it would be wonderful to see Jon again. It would also be the point when working on Jon's story (which would ultimately be postponed until A Dance With Dragons) that Jon beheaded Janos Slynt and became the only hero in the world by Sansa's definition (i.e. this would also be the point where he's probably started to lay the groundwork for putting Jon and Sansa together). And again, how much of a departure GRRM would consider this from the main story laid out in 1991 is an open question. GRRM is not one who devotes huge swathes of his stories to 'shipping' and so it could be that the only critical factor of Jon potentially marrying Arya in the first draft was in further legitimizing his claim to Winterfell by ensuring that his children would also be Ned's grandchildren... an element that could easily be swapped to Sansa without the girls having to be interchangeable in any other respect. Original recipe Arya wasn't going to become a magical face-stealing assassin. She was going to have a series of misadventures on the road north to reunite with Jon. As of now, that's basically Sansa's story, particularly in the WoW derived material that's showing up this coming season and perhaps Littlefinger has been swapped into Tyrion's place for the theoretically love triangle. 3 Link to comment
Eyes High April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) It doesn't require them to be interchangeable, it just requires GRRM to change his mind about certain things in the TWO AND A HALF DECADES its been since he started outlining the story.That's just it, though. GRRM is saying that he hasn't changed his mind about the ending since 1991. Whatever divergences there have been in the intervening 25 years--assassin Arya, Jaime being split into two people, etc.--they will not do violence to that ending.As for the argument that Arya's stint with the FM is proof that GRRM has decided to do away with Jon/Arya, that does not make sense to me for two reasons. The first is that Arya leaves the FM in the show and therefore likely in the books as well. The second is that in the books, Needle above all represents her love for Jon Snow ("Needle was Jon Snow's smile"), and Needle is the one thing she refuses to give up. Don't get me wrong; I could live with Jon/Sansa, if only because it would make the SanSan shippers' heads explode. With that said, there is nothing to suggest that Sansa was going to end up with Jon in 1993 (but there is something to suggest that she's offed pretty early on), and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that GRRM would consider the identity of the hero's endgame mate a minor detail that could be changed, particularly given the 1993 love story involving the hero and another character. Edited April 3, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
ElizaD April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 In 1993, though, Jon's love story with Arya was a big part of their character arcs, their conflict over it would be resolved with the revelation of Jon's parentage, and both characters survive the series. How does that add up to Jon pairing off with someone else in the 1993 ending? GRRM wrote that the big five would "make it through all three volumes" but I don't think that's a spoiler that guarantees they would have and will all survive the final book, only that they will be part of the endgame. They could well grow to adulthood, as he said, only to die saving Westeros in the end. My own guess is that Jon was to end up dead or single (either because Arya dies or because something else keeps the marriage from happening after the big reveal): I don't see any support for Jon/Arya in the books as they are now, with an emphasis on their normal brother/sister love and no clear path to Arya joining Jon's plot and getting the buildup to be viable either as a political bride or a love match. The original triangle has already been revised, since there's been no sign of Tyrion/Arya and he seems to have gotten a version of that unrequited love plot with Sansa instead. GRRM has changed, cut and rewritten stuff to such a degree that we're in a situation where we'll be watching the ending on TV before we read it. And what is the important thing about the ending to GRRM? I still believe what I've posted before, that ASOIAF doesn't really do romance. For example, if GRRM saw the big questions as "is there an Iron Throne, who sits on the throne, who has Winterfell?" character marriages or deaths could be secondary concerns; Jon/Arya/Tyrion could become Jon/Sansa/Tyrion, "Tyrion dies in the final battle" could become "Tyrion is Lord of the Rock" and so on. 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 (edited) GRRM wrote that the big five would "make it through all three volumes" but I don't think that's a spoiler that guarantees they would have and will all survive the final book, only that they will be part of the endgame. This is the quotation: The cast will not always remain the same. Old characters will die, and new characters will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time. Five characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process... [bold mine] He says anyone can die at any time...except those five, who would make it through all three volumes. I don't see how it could be read any other way, and interpreting this to mean "They can die, just not until the end" is implausible to me. I don't see any support for Jon/Arya in the books as they are now There is quite a bit of potential textual support, actually, but it's subtle and easily missed. I was skeptical myself until I saw the sheer wealth of quotations and such...which is funny, considering that Jon/Sansa is a much more popular pairing with virtually no textual support. For example, if GRRM saw the big questions as "is there an Iron Throne, who sits on the throne, who has Winterfell?" character marriages or deaths could be secondary concerns; Jon/Arya/Tyrion could become Jon/Sansa/Tyrion, "Tyrion dies in the final battle" could become "Tyrion is Lord of the Rock" and so on. You have to look at what he said, though. He didn't say that knew the "big questions." He said that he's moving towards the "broad strokes" of the endings he's known since 1991, but that he'll change "fine details." It would make no sense whatsoever that GRRM would consider changing a main character's fate from death to survival a "fine detail," or that he would consider changing a main character's endgame pairing from one character to another a "fine detail," even if he otherwise considers romantic pairings in his stories trifling bullshit unworthy of his attention. Thinking about this a bit more, I wonder if GRRM intending to adhere to the broad strokes of his 1991 ending means that he is going to kill off Sansa after all. He doesn't have to, as long as she plays no role in the ending, but if she is an ascendant political player in the books, I don't see how she wouldn't play some part. Maybe that means he's going to off her after all. The 1993 outline seemed to suggest that Sansa was going to get killed off, albeit much earlier and under very different circumstances (circumstances which ASOIAF Sansa survived when she escaped successfully from KL). We also know that Sansa was originally created to be a foil to Arya, and that in 1993 she wasn't one of the "main five" guaranteed survival through the series. Her role has been expanded significantly since the 1993 outline, and things seem to be going much better for her in ASOIAF than they did in the outline, but if GRRM always intended to adhere to the broad strokes of his 1991 endings for the characters, maybe all she got was a temporary reprieve. Edited April 3, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
nksarmi April 3, 2016 Share April 3, 2016 There are undoubtedly large divergences between the 1993 outline and ASOIAF: Jaime was split into two characters, for starters. There are large divergences for Arya and Sansa's storyline as well. However, GRRM has said that he intends to adhere to the endings he had in 1991. Whatever changes he has made between the outline and ASOIAF will not affect the broad strokes of the 1991 ending. For example, it doesn't matter at least where the ending's concerned that Jaime has been split into two people, since both of them will probably be dead by the time the ending rolls around. Sansa's role has been considerably expanded since the outline, but whatever happens to Sansa in ASOIAF will not change the ending GRRM had in mind since 1991, which rules out Jon/Sansa and also rules out Sansa ending up as endgame Westeros queen to anyone, in my opinion. GRRM has stated that he is moving towards the broad strokes of the 1991 ending. He says that the devil is in the details, but swapping out one Stark girl for another is only a minor detail if Arya and Sansa are completely interchangeable, which of course they are not. The other thing to remember is that in 1993, and likely by extension in 1991, GRRM saw five characters as having special status: the story would revolve around their journeys, and they would survive the whole series. These characters were Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany and Tyrion. Sansa was left off that list. She was a second tier character in 1993 whose main character point was her betrayal of the Starks, and unless you buy that she'd just let Jaime murder her son, it seems possible that she was murdered by Jaime fairly early on. If GRRM is still barreling towards the ending he had in mind in 1991, whatever it is, Sansa won't be a part of it in any meaningful way. Doesn't mean that she'll die, necessarily, but it does mean, I think, that she won't be Jon's significant other or queen, or indeed anyone's queen. I also doubt she'll be holding Winterfell at the end of the story, which seems buttressed by Bran ditching the cave in Season 6. You might be right and I for one would not necessarily mind since those are the characters I have been most invested in (though Dany is wearing on me as of the last book. However, GRRM has also said that he is a gardener who likes to see where the story takes him and if he knows how the story ends - he gets bored with it. I believe he will stay true to a few things - like Jon's story but only because it is central to everything he has shaped so far. If he meant for Tyrion to be a ruler, Bran to be a prophet, Dany to be a villain (and really flip a coin with her - who knows?), etc... I think it will happen. But I no longer see Sansa as the character who will betray her family by falling in love with her family's enemy and having a child by them. I also don't think Tyrion betrayed his family and certainly did not come to side with the Starks. I just think the Lannisters are scum and were bound to imploud upon themselves at some point. I almost see Tyrion as surviving rather than betraying. At any rate, my point is that I don't put much stock in his 25 year old original idea to predict anything. In fact, about the only thing that will stay true is Jon is a secret Targ who will save the realm from the coming death and the Long Night. Beyond that, I'd say just about anything is possible. In 1993, though, Jon's love story with Arya was a big part of their character arcs, their conflict over it would be resolved with the revelation of Jon's parentage, and both characters survive the series. How does that add up to Jon's pairing with another character being a minor detail? Yea but its 2016 and we've seen absolutely no sign of a Ayra / Jon romance in five books. And I have no idea what Ayra's story is in book six but I can't imagine she will be by Jon's side BEFORE he is resurrected and we find out who his parents are in the books. Ergo, there is no conflict present and none to resolve. We don't even have a path before for them to meet again. Whereas, Sansa is at least in the Vale with the scheming LF trying to position her to reclaim Winterfell - which will probably be one of Jon's the risen commander's first stops. I'm just saying - the story has freaking changed. 3 Link to comment
Chris24601 April 4, 2016 Share April 4, 2016 Another thing I think needs to be pointed out regarding Jon/Sansa that falls in line with the idea that switching from Arya to Sansa not being seen as a major factor to GRRM is that I don't think anyone is expecting Jon/Sansa to be some sort of epic romance of yearning and forbidden love. Indeed, the way I've most often heard Jon/Sansa described is as an "ideal political match" to bring stability to the North with a couple that would be reasonably accepting of the arrangement. If GRRM only intended the J/A match to be about stabilizing Jon's rule of the North or to lose his 'true love' and either not resolve his love life past that loss or have him make an unremarkable political match, then Jon/Sansa would NOT be a significant deviation from GRRM's ending. The notion that it also has to be Jon/Arya also presupposes that GRRM considers the name to be the most central element of the character. Outline Arya never joined a secret society of magical assassins on another continent and frankly, current Sansa is closer to outline Arya's course than current Arya is. Let's also be honest... we don't even know for sure if the leaked 1991 pitch outline everyone refers to is even what GRRM is referring to when he says the story ending hasn't changed since he started writing. He could just as easily be referring to his final draft outline that he referenced while writing GoT that's never been seen by anyone but him and maybe his editor. So, yeah, I'm basically in the camp that the leaked pitch isn't super relevant to how the story is going to go and if Jon/Arya ever was a thing, GRRM changed gears around 2000 when he dropped the time jump and basically swapped Sansa into Arya's old ending and put Arya on a new path. 2 Link to comment
Eyes High April 4, 2016 Share April 4, 2016 (edited) At any rate, my point is that I don't put much stock in his 25 year old original idea to predict anything. In fact, about the only thing that will stay true is Jon is a secret Targ who will save the realm from the coming death and the Long Night. Beyond that, I'd say just about anything is possible. Yea but its 2016 and we've seen absolutely no sign of a Ayra / Jon romance in five books. And I have no idea what Ayra's story is in book six but I can't imagine she will be by Jon's side BEFORE he is resurrected and we find out who his parents are in the books. Ergo, there is no conflict present and none to resolve. We don't even have a path before for them to meet again. Whereas, Sansa is at least in the Vale with the scheming LF trying to position her to reclaim Winterfell - which will probably be one of Jon's the risen commander's first stops. I'm just saying - the story has freaking changed. If GRRM's statement that he is moving towards the same ending he knew in 1991 can be taken seriously, then I think the outline should be taken seriously, too. There is a lot that the outline and ASOIAF have in common, as well, in particular all the deaths (Joffrey, Ned, Robb, Cat, Viserys, Drogo, Robert, etc.), except for Sansa's (so far in ASOIAF, anyway). As for no sign of a Jon/Arya romance in five books to date...there has been no overt sign, true, other than a lot of potential subtext, but there is nothing that can be read into its absence to date in the books, since it seems quite clear that Arya was deaged from the outline. Outline Arya falls passionately in love with Jon Snow in short order. ASOIAF Arya hasn't even gotten her period yet. The five year time jump was an attempt among other things to get Arya to hit puberty more quickly--GRRM has spoken about the books chronologically moving more slowly than he intended--and he scrapped it with great reluctance. Arya is still only 11 or so as of ADWD, and in the Mercy chapter Raff was portrayed as a pedophile for being sexually interested in Arya, and neither Tyrion nor Jon have been suggested to have a sexual interest in prepubescent girls. Once she hits puberty--and GRRM seems determined that that's going to happen sooner or later--we'll see. Sansa is 11 when she falls in love with Joffrey, 12 when she fancies Loras, and 13 when she has ambiguous sex dreams about the Hound. Dany is 13 years old when she falls in love with Drogo. Sansa's location and convenient proximity to Jon in the books and the show will mean nothing if she was never intended to wind up with him, and if she wasn't intended to end up with him in 1993, and indeed if she was a doomed secondary character with no romantic connection to Jon in 1993, I doubt very much that she will be anything else in 2016. Edited April 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
Chris24601 April 4, 2016 Share April 4, 2016 Then I'd say we either can't take GRRM's statement seriously (i.e. its about as credible as George Lucas' claims that he has the entire 12, er, 9, er, 6 no wait its 9 again Star Wars saga mapped out from the beginning) or he's referring to something other than the leaked pitch outline when he's referring to 'the ending.' Either way, ASoIaF has deviated from that outline in ways that are impossible to reconcile with the pitch outline to the point I don't believe the outline is indicative of anything other than GRRM's initial ideas for the series, some of which were expanded, others heavily changed and others dropped entirely. As just a few examples... Arya shouldn't be a magical face-stealing assassin, Cat shouldn't be a walking corpse, Tyrion should be in the North having a rivalry with Jon, fAegon shouldn't exist, etc., etc... Oh, and the story should have been finished fifteen years ago because the story was only three books long. Other than the same sort of statements EVERY author makes about how the story is unfolding exactly as planned (i.e. blatant lies) there's nothing to support the notion that GRRM didn't change course on a number of elements once he realized his five year time jump wasn't going to work in the narrative. By contrast, the evidence of the course change is all over AFfC and ADwD where a number of characters start to veer wildly off course from the original outline. 2 Link to comment
Recommended Posts