Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[PRgal]

I found out some interesting information about my paternal grandmother s family.  She had an older sister (never met her) who passed this year at 100 or 101.  She was in the military (my grandmother was in a youth wing as a teen, apparently…long story about her running away from the Japanese and was supposed to be taken under her sister’s wing when the rest of her family was nowhere to be found) and then went back to school to complete an undergrad.  All that education meant nothing later on, thanks to the Cultural Revolution (she never made it to Hong Kong).  I had zero idea that my grandma and her family were middle class - I always thought they were poor since my grandmother wasn’t in school very long.  My dad also thinks my grandma was the child of a concubine/not the first wife and kids of concubines, especially girls, mattered less.  Maybe taking Ancestry test may clear things up…who knows?

[RealHousewife]

My mother is back on Zoloft, and she's already doing much better. She and my sister are even speaking again. I'm so relieved.  

[BlueSkies]

Since I didn’t show up for my moms birthday cake last week I figured I owed it to her to drive her to see her nephews baby.  My mom doesn’t like driving long distances on highways.

 

 

I have to bite back a little awkwardness and social anxiety with this though.  I still live with my mother and have no desire or plans at all to have kids.

 

Since she likes babies ( well who doesn’t?) a lot of this is gonna feel kind of awkward in the odds are she’s never going to have grandchildren 

Edited July 23, 2023 by BlueSkies

[PRgal]

10 minutes ago, BlueSkies said:

Since I didn’t show up for my moms birthday cake last week I figured I owed it to her to drive her to see her nephews baby.  My mom doesn’t like driving long distances on highways.

 

 

I have to bite back a little awkwardness and social anxiety with this though.  I still live with my mother and have no desire or plans at all to have kids.

 

Since she likes babies ( well who doesn’t?) a lot of this is gonna feel kind of awkward in the odds are she’s never going to have grandchildren 

As long as she doesn't pester you, then it might not be that bad?  People have recently stopped asking me when I'm going to have another, probably because I'm nearing my mid-40s, and am, well, "too old."  Plus I've bored them with a lecture on IVF and gestational surrogacy enough times.....

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, BlueSkies said:

Since she likes babies ( well who doesn’t?)

I don't.

[BlueSkies]

3 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I don't.

Most I know seem too…In that sense you live up to your user name 😊

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, BlueSkies said:

Since she likes babies ( well who doesn’t?)

Me. 

To be clear, since those of us who aren't into babies/kids are so frequently ascribed a hatred we don't actually hold, I don't dislike babies, but, no, I don't like them, either.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with them, of course, I just have no interest in them; I hope they're well cared for, but I don't want to be around them.  As I always say -- like snakes, just harder to avoid.

[Browncoat]

My superpower is making babies cry if I touch them.  So I try not to.

[Quof]

I don't care for children, the same way I don't care for dogs. I am indifferent to them.  I don't find them inherently cute or endearing.  I also harbour them no ill will.   If yours make you happy, good for you. Please take care of them and raise them well. Where I object is when their noise, mess or odor is imposed upon me in a situation where I shouldn't be expected to tolerate it, such as unruly children in nice restaurants, unrestrained dogs anywhere other than dog parks or their own homes, and fake "service" animals in stores.  

None of this makes me a horrible human.   

[BlueSkies]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Me. 

To be clear, since those of us who aren't into babies/kids are so frequently ascribed a hatred we don't actually hold, I don't dislike babies, but, no, I don't like them, either.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with them, of course, I just have no interest in them; I hope they're well cared for, but I don't want to be around them.  As I always say -- like snakes, just harder to avoid.

That's kind of how I feel about animals.

 

I dont enjoy reading about animal cruelty or what not but have never had a desire in my life to own a pet.  I seem to have the minority opinion there of people I knew/know 

[EtheltoTillie]

I don't like babies and young children, in the sense that I have no interest in interacting with them at their level.  I find it irritating or tedious in the extreme.  Moreover, I could not take on the never ending need to care for the children, with no opportunity to relax one's vigilance.  So I wisely chose not to have children.  I have always known this about myself and I never even babysat as a teenager or worked as a camp counselor.  I do like dogs and cats. 

A number of my friends have children and I do not really understand why they had that impulse. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

I had 3 kids that I was not prepared to rear in terms of socioeconomic conditions. 
But I really really wanted each one. It seemed some kind of brain chemistry reaction to hormones was involved, especially after I'd had the first. Maybe being around other women with babies initially triggered this reaction? If I hadn't gotten divorced, I probably would have had another!😮
But I don't think this seeming biochemical influence is experienced by everyone, regardless of whether or not they have children or are around them. 

Yesterday I spent time with my 18-month-old grandson. We adore each other. Of course, I only see him for less than a day once per week. 😉

My 2 older, 40+ daughters chose not to have kids.

Edited July 23, 2023 by shapeshifter
Typo

[BlueSkies]

So I went through, brought my mom to see the new baby.  Was all right.  

 

My whole thing is social anxiety in general, and not feeling comfortable or understood enough with the family to speak about how I honestly feel.  Like for example social situations are things I had to go to therapy and force myself through.  I mean unfortunately I still need contact with people to survive.  But I have a coach below like Bob Hurley in my head yelling at me to push through.  Much in the same way he used to push his basketball players

 

 

[supposebly]

The problem I have with raising children is that they grow up and become teenagers.

I like small children, not infants, though.

But raising them to the point they hate you or at least become real people? Hell no.

I had a time (maybe 6 months) in my thirties where I almost seriously considered having one. I'm so grateful that I didn't.

[Laura Holt]

On 7/23/2023 at 7:47 AM, Browncoat said:

My superpower is making babies cry if I touch them.  So I try not to.

My mother always used to say there were two kinds of people - those who, when a baby cries, feel the compulsion to reach for the baby to try to comfort them and then those who look for the nearest exit.  I doubt this is completely true, of course, but IME it's not wrong either.

On 7/23/2023 at 10:49 AM, shapeshifter said:

Yesterday I spent time with my 18-month-old grandson. We adore each other. Of course, I only see him for less than a day once per week. 😉

I wanted children, not a lot of children, but a few (husband wanted 6, so not happening!) And I was really lucky I had great kids.  If they majorly messed up as teens they made sure I never found out!  But that said being a grandparent is WAY better! 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Laura Holt

[BlueSkies]

Something that always bothered me about that side of the family….  I always thought my cousins got more attention or had their issues if you will catered to then me.

 

This is real embarrassing to share but my junior in college I dealt way depression, failing grades, and a masturbation addiction.  It took me 5 years to finish.  But it more or less came down to me to pull myself out of that horrid state.

 

Even seeing psychologists I always felt my parents were embarrassed to say I see one more than anything 

[supposebly]

I'm just here to vent. For years now, my yearly "vacation" has been about visiting my parents in Germany. I love them dearly and my small hometown is nice with lots of lakes to go swimming in the summer.

However, the older they get, the more my "vacation" becomes dealing with all the stuff they don't want to deal with. Renovating things in the house, so they can stay living in their house and not have preventable accidents. Nagging them to make a will and get their paper work done in case something happens. Or, in case of my dad, add me as a driver of his car, so I'm not stuck in the countryside while he refuses to let me drive because I'm not a driver registered on the insurance. At least that's his argument.

My "vacation" this year starts with an uncle's funeral on the day I arrive and my dad going to the hospital getting another stent. Meanwhile my mom doesn't drive anymore and keeps apologizing that she isn't as active as she used to be.

I wish I could just go somewhere I've never been before and be on an actual vacation. I'm sure that makes me a bad daughter but I don't care. I've been sick for 6 weeks this summer and I have lost extremely valuable work time, which put me behind on two important projects.

I need to get out of my head for a while instead of feeling stressed and sad that my parents won't be around for much longer during the next 3 weeks.

[Laura Holt]

25 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I wish I could just go somewhere I've never been before and be on an actual vacation. I'm sure that makes me a bad daughter but I don't care.

I live near my dad and just spent an hour on the phone trying to figure out which of his doctors called to schedule a test for him.  All he knew was "someone from the clinic" called.  At his age, with multiple health issues,  this wasn't particularly helpful.  Anyway I know exactly how you feel.  My husband and I were talking of going away for a few weeks this fall because I really need a break but I know I won't enjoy myself if I have to spend the whole time worrying about my Dad.  Doesn't matter if they live near you or thousands of miles away.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

I'm just here to vent. For years now, my yearly "vacation" has been about visiting my parents in Germany. I love them dearly and my small hometown is nice with lots of lakes to go swimming in the summer.

However, the older they get, the more my "vacation" becomes dealing with all the stuff they don't want to deal with. Renovating things in the house, so they can stay living in their house and not have preventable accidents. Nagging them to make a will and get their paper work done in case something happens. Or, in case of my dad, add me as a driver of his car, so I'm not stuck in the countryside while he refuses to let me drive because I'm not a driver registered on the insurance. At least that's his argument.

My "vacation" this year starts with an uncle's funeral on the day I arrive and my dad going to the hospital getting another stent. Meanwhile my mom doesn't drive anymore and keeps apologizing that she isn't as active as she used to be.

I wish I could just go somewhere I've never been before and be on an actual vacation. I'm sure that makes me a bad daughter but I don't care. I've been sick for 6 weeks this summer and I have lost extremely valuable work time, which put me behind on two important projects.

I need to get out of my head for a while instead of feeling stressed and sad that my parents won't be around for much longer during the next 3 weeks.

I can really relate to this because my parents moved to Hawaii in 1986 and stayed there for 30 years. It was 12 hours each way to get there by plane.

Eventually your parents will be gone, and you will likely regret not doing things differently, but hindsight is, as they say, "20-20," and for now, just do the best you can. My sister took this to mean trying to get them to move, and spent every visit for their last 10 years arguing with them about it. One thing I do not regret is not arguing about their finances, medical care, living situation, etc. 

I did not take any other "vacations," and going to Hawaii to see my parents meant coming back paler than I left because in 2 weeks we'd go to the beach once. But I am glad I shortened Dad's jeans, and wish I'd painted more with Mom, and that Dad's story about his childhood in the 1930s hadn't gotten interrupted for Jeopardy!.

However, I lived 2 miles from a lovely beach on Lake Michigan, so I was already in a place where people go for a vacation. Your situation may be very different. A weekend getaway may be in order for you.
For instance: That beach where I lived until after Mom and Dad passed is Forest Park Beach in Lake Forest, IL.

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

I live near my dad and just spent an hour on the phone trying to figure out which of his doctors called to schedule a test for him.  All he knew was "someone from the clinic" called.  At his age, with multiple health issues,  this wasn't particularly helpful.  Anyway I know exactly how you feel.  My husband and I were talking of going away for a few weeks this fall because I really need a break but I know I won't enjoy myself if I have to spend the whole time worrying about my Dad.  Doesn't matter if they live near you or thousands of miles away.

If you haven't done so already, set up his account for his health care provider(s) online. If most of them are in the same health care "system," it will be easier, but there shouldn't be that many, and a lot of them now have the option to share information if they are using the EPIC software. This will allow you to see what appointments he has and what procedures or immunizations are "due."

[supposebly]

Thank you for sharing, everyone. I know, my sister and my brother back home deal with this more often than I do, but when they visit they can leave after 2 days. And actually take their vacations.

I'm going to be there for 3 weeks and then have a work week in the UK. I'm sure I'll be regretting all my belly aching once they're gone but right now, I just feel utterly overwhelmed. And having to leave my cats for a month isn't helping.

[Bastet]

54 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I'm going to be there for 3 weeks and then have a work week in the UK.

Any chance you could take a long weekend out of those three weeks to at least go on a small getaway trip by yourself?  Maybe leave your parents' house early and go somewhere else on the way to the UK?

None of this makes you a bad daughter.  It's not a relaxing trip to be not just physically doing things for them, but dealing with the emotional strain that is watching your parents get older and in need of more help than the last time you saw them.  So when that's the only trip you get, it's a big deal, and there's no shame in being overwhelmed.

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Any chance you could take a long weekend out of those three weeks to at least go on a small getaway trip by yourself?

I wish. I will be at my brother's birthday bash for a day or two, and then a day or two at my sister's place before I go to the UK. But, this is still all family, so it's not "away" mentally.

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

So when that's the only trip you get, it's a big deal, and there's no shame in being overwhelmed.

Thank you very much for writing that. I don't know anyone who is in a similar position. Not a lot of friends who moved to another continent.

For now, I hope my dad's stent surgery will be going well. That is happening this Thursday.

[theredhead77]

8 hours ago, supposebly said:

I'm just here to vent. For years now, my yearly "vacation" has been about visiting my parents in Germany. I love them dearly and my small hometown is nice with lots of lakes to go swimming in the summer.

However, the older they get, the more my "vacation" becomes dealing with all the stuff they don't want to deal with. Renovating things in the house, so they can stay living in their house and not have preventable accidents. Nagging them to make a will and get their paper work done in case something happens. Or, in case of my dad, add me as a driver of his car, so I'm not stuck in the countryside while he refuses to let me drive because I'm not a driver registered on the insurance. At least that's his argument.

My "vacation" this year starts with an uncle's funeral on the day I arrive and my dad going to the hospital getting another stent. Meanwhile my mom doesn't drive anymore and keeps apologizing that she isn't as active as she used to be.

I wish I could just go somewhere I've never been before and be on an actual vacation. I'm sure that makes me a bad daughter but I don't care. I've been sick for 6 weeks this summer and I have lost extremely valuable work time, which put me behind on two important projects.

I need to get out of my head for a while instead of feeling stressed and sad that my parents won't be around for much longer during the next 3 weeks.

I 100% feel you. When I was in GA all my vacations were spent visiting my family. People here were great at helping me set boundaries with my parents because at first they were turning me into their house elf. 

I, too, want to vacation somewhere that is a real vacation.

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

Thank you very much for writing that. I don't know anyone who is in a similar position. Not a lot of friends who moved to another continent

I moved from California to Georgia. I completely understand. Visiting family at their home is not vacation, regardless of where it is.

[Lisa418722]

11 hours ago, supposebly said:

I'm sure I'll be regretting all my belly aching once they're gone but right now, I just feel utterly overwhelmed. 

A few years ago I had planned a vacation to Yellowstone and after I scheduled it my dad was diagnosed with cancer.  I spent just about every other weekend driving from GA to TN to see him and my mom.  When the time for the vacation came, I told my mom I would just cancel the trip and take the week and spend the time with her and my dad.  She said no, that my dad had always wanted to go to Yellowstone, but would never be able to go.  I went on the trip and made sure there was a way I could get back home quickly if needed.  I admit I felt guilty for enjoying myself.  When I got back home, the following weekend I went back to TN and about three weeks later my dad died. I was with him when he took his last breath.  I'm glad I was there, but selfishly, I'm also glad I was able to go on my trip.  

There is nothing wrong with "belly aching" as you put it.  But you also need to take care of yourself physically and emotionally. If at all possible you need to try to take, even a day, to yourself while you're visiting your family. 

[supposebly]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:48 PM, supposebly said:

For now, I hope my dad's stent surgery will be going well. That is happening this Thursday.

Quoting myself to report his stent surgery wasn't necessary but they "cleaned out" the other ones he has. He's already back home. Apparently, they need to find another reason why he is short of breath a lot. So good news and uncertainty.

Edited July 28, 2023 by supposebly

[BlueSkies]

I feel my parents kind of switched roles to me as I got older.  My mom was always sort of the chill/laid back type.  My Dad was always on the strict disciplinarian side with a short temper and anxiety/bipolar issues.  And that's just the start of it.  My mom never really would believe me when I was little when I tell her how crazy I thought Dad was.

 

Fast forward to today where my Dad's mellowing out more in his old age and my mom has turned into a crazy woman.  I mean she like HATES my Dad's mom in retrospect.  She still curses her out and calls her the four letter c word quite a bit.  Mind you she's been dead for years now.  What I dont get is why until now when you never sort of realized what my dad's family sort of was?

 

And like when I was younger I dont think my dad realizes the depths to how much my mom like hates his family.  

 

 

This just makes me think my parents just blissfully only paid attention to what they wanted too and weren't receptive 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by BlueSkies

[PRgal]

I finally let my parents know that they need to give me more room and autonomy as a parent and not to take over the parenting role for my son.  I'm the mom, not them.  It can suck when you live in the same building and when they play an active role in childcare.  I told them that they can give him whatever food they want there (within reason, of course.  But since I wasn't raised with ultraprocessed foods, and they don't really have much of that at their place either, I'm not too worried).  I told them that if I want to serve him plant proteins, I can (we don't buy high sodium faux meats) and not to criticize me.  I also told them that I'm going to take care of the fruits and vegetables he eats (until now, they were bringing over fruits for him....I was okay at first, but a few times I sliced apples or whatever fruit, only to find him already eating something the nanny cut up from the grands' place).  The more time he spends with me (and/or my husband), the quicker he's going to lose his toddler accent/possible Hong Kong accent he picked up from my parents.  My dad was, at first, surprised.  I don't think he understood until I explained.  I guess he thought his role as a grandfather was kind of like my maternal grandparents when I was a child.  I was basically raised by three adults - my parents and my maternal grandmother (my grandfather was a bit more distant) until I was in middle school or so when my dad realized that my grandmother was too much of an influence to me.  And that's not a good thing (she had weird beliefs, a lot of it faux news (e.g. like how Bermuda had the largest HIV rate outside of Africa or that one could catch HIV from swimming in a pool or even the beach))

 

[supposebly]

35 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I finally let my parents know that they need to give me more room and autonomy as a parent and not to take over the parenting role for my son.

Congratulations! That couldn't have been an easy conversation.

[PRgal]

17 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Congratulations! That couldn't have been an easy conversation.

Thanks.  Good thing I did it over text.  It would be hard to do it face-to-face.  I think they’re going to freak out at me signing him up for indoor winter soccer.  My dad is convinced he’ll get hurt.  He wants my son to do “country club” sports like tennis and golf over soccer (I can’t seem to convince him that soccer isn’t nearly as risky as football or hockey)!  My son is going to get tennis lessons, just not yet.  I’ll probably sign him up for a few skating lessons (hey, we’re Canadian.  It’s pretty much…expected) either this year or in January.  I don’t want to overwhelm him yet.  Oh, and acting class so he would learn to use his voice more!  

[GATenn]

My mother's husband passed away in April, and she's been going through the grieving process since. She's never lived on her own before, and she's having health problems even though she's only 68. I took a leave of absence and drove back and forth between TN and GA to help her and take care of her. She's grateful, but she's...a lot. Even when she's well.

I've been assisting with the life insurance and the bills. She refuses to do anything technological, and she sends everything through the mail, which is usually wrong. Then she gets frustrated with the person on the phone and stresses out. I usually then get on the phone and have it handled over email in five minutes. She put me on her bank account, but she refuses to enroll in online banking. She makes everything more difficult than it has to be. Plus, she's ornery, entitled, and demanding. My sister and I have become her parents, which she doesn't like because she's proud and has always been active.

I am now in the process of moving to GA to be closer (an hour away; I'm not stupid), so there's that. The role reversal is real, and I'm not here for it. I miss the mother I knew, and...I know there's no way to be ready for this, but, I'm not ready.

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, GATenn said:

My sister and I have become her parents, which she doesn't like because she's proud and has always been active.

That's tough. I hope the moving won't be too hard on you.

I'm starting to get a sense of what all that will be like. I'm on my way to Germany for my annual visit. One thing will be to convince my dad to let me drive his car and include me on his insurance for the time I'm there. The other will be to sit down with my mom to get the bathroom renovations going. So, there might just be a chance one of them WON'T die unceremonoiusly and in an undignified manner by slipping in the bath and breaking their head on the floor-to-ceiling bathroom tiles from the 1980s. Or break their back/hip/ass falling down when the old wall-mounted toilet breaks.

Both of these issues have been addressed and not resolved for at least 5 years. Wish me luck.

[shapeshifter]

37 minutes ago, supposebly said:

...to convince my dad to let me drive his car and include me on his insurance for the time I'm there...get the bathroom renovations going....Both of these issues have been addressed and not resolved for at least 5 years. Wish me luck.

This sounds a lot like my sister's relationship with our parents during their last 10 years. She is very know-it-all and bossy by nature, and so only succeeded in upsetting herself and them. Hopefully you can be more tactful. 
This Hidden Brain podcast seemed insightful to me, albeit too late for us:

Quote

...one example that immediately comes to mind is my lifelong effort to convince my father to buy a mobile phone. So my father's in his mid-90s, he fought in World War II, fascinating guy, and still active despite his age, still takes walks in the woods, is quite independent, but because of that independence and living alone, I worry a lot about him. And I, and the rest of the family would feel a whole lot better if he had a communication device at his hip. Unfortunately, he tracks all societal ills to the innovation of the cellphone. And for years I've been using all the influence, persuasion, nudge techniques to try and convince him to get a cell phone, but he is a classic resistor. And I suspect all of those techniques simply pushed him further along the path. I would love to be able to say, I have now succeeded in that effort, but I haven't because now there is such deep suspicion and resistance anytime I even broach the subject. But if I were to start over, if I hadn't so effectively solidified his anti-mobile phone views with all of my pushing and reactance, I might say something like, so dad, a friend of mine is trying to find the right phone for his grandmother, and she's about your age. Would you be willing to come with me and look at phones? I'd like to see which ones seem better for her. And what I'm attempting to do in that process is not to push him down this path, but to create an environment and room for him to begin to discover this technology on his own. That's one way you could move from reactance to say self-persuasion.

https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/work-2-0-the-obstacles-you-dont-see/

Or maybe just bring along some of those permanent stickers for the bottom of the tub/shower and put them in when nobody's looking.

[Laura Holt]

My sister has always overshared, I'm used to it, but today she's been posting pictures and several of them include me  and I am not happy about this.  First some of the pictures are not flattering.  At all.  But more importantly I feel that she should ask if I mind her posting these photos.  I know if I bring it up she'll probably go off the deep end and I usually pick my battles.  To use an overused expression "is this the hill I want to die on?"  Probably not.  But it's still annoying me.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:11 PM, shapeshifter said:

And I, and the rest of the family would feel a whole lot better if he had a communication device at his hip. Unfortunately, he tracks all societal ills to the innovation of the cellphone. 

But he might not be wrong.

On 8/2/2023 at 3:11 PM, shapeshifter said:

But if I were to start over, if I hadn't so effectively solidified his anti-mobile phone views with all of my pushing and reactance,

Boy, I don't know.  Seems like he's taking a lot of credit for influencing his father. 

I haven't needed anybody at all to push me along the path of believing smart phones in particular have destroyed society, and longing for the days before they were invented.  And this guy had 30 more years of that bliss than I've had.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

But he might not be wrong.

Boy, I don't know.  Seems like he's taking a lot of credit for influencing his father. 

I haven't needed anybody at all to push me along the path of believing smart phones in particular have destroyed society, and longing for the days before they were invented.  And this guy had 30 more years of that bliss than I've had.

Yes. Good points.

But I’ve taken his example out of context. 
Analogies are always flawed, and his example doesn’t apply literally. But it more or less worked for me.

For me, it did echo my sister’s 10 year quest to move my parents out of their home and into a condo, which she finally did as they were dying. 
I keep hearing the words of the chaplain who took me aside to tell me my mother not only missed my father, but “she misses her home.”😭   
I wonder if he thought I had something to do with uprooting her, since Mom probably told him “her daughter” moved her to the assisted living condo
— which was still over 1000 miles from both of us. 
(I had wanted them to get in-home help, but my sister was against it.)

Anyway, with regards to that podcast quote:

Quote

…one example that immediately comes to mind is my lifelong effort to convince my father to buy a mobile phone. So my father's in his mid-90s, he fought in World War II, fascinating guy, and still active despite his age, still takes walks in the woods, is quite independent, but because of that independence and living alone, I worry a lot about him. And I, and the rest of the family would feel a whole lot better if he had a communication device at his hip. Unfortunately, he tracks all societal ills to the innovation of the cellphone. And for years I've been using all the influence, persuasion, nudge techniques to try and convince him to get a cell phone, but he is a classic resistor. And I suspect all of those techniques simply pushed him further along the path. I would love to be able to say, I have now succeeded in that effort, but I haven't because now there is such deep suspicion and resistance anytime I even broach the subject. But if I were to start over, if I hadn't so effectively solidified his anti-mobile phone views with all of my pushing and reactance, I might say something like, so dad, a friend of mine is trying to find the right phone for his grandmother, and she's about your age. Would you be willing to come with me and look at phones? I'd like to see which ones seem better for her. And what I'm attempting to do in that process is not to push him down this path, but to create an environment and room for him to begin to discover this technology on his own. That's one way you could move from reactance to say self-persuasion.

https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/work-2-0-the-obstacles-you-dont-see/

— by spending part of every visit with my parents haranguing them about abandoning their dream home of 30 years (a ranch with no basement or other stairs, and with a shower with a seat, a gardener, a cleaning person, etc. plus a beautiful view, privacy, quiet, etc.) to live in an apartment, they just became more and more entrenched in not making any changes.

It would have been better to just tell them: Whatever you want to do to make life less challenging, I will help you find what you need.

After one visit about 3 years before Dad passed, my sister said she was not going to fight with them anymore about moving out of their home and into a condo. 
That lasted one visit.  
Then she went back to arguing with them, until Dad was in the hospital and she took over their finances, and sold the house, and moved Mom into a condo. 
For five long years, Mom was never happy again. 
And the cost of the facility was the same as hiring full time care at home.😔

Edited August 4, 2023 by shapeshifter

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

they just became more and more entrenched in not making any changes.

It would have been better to just tell them: Whatever you want to do to make life less challenging, I will help you find what you need.

I think that's a perfect approach IF you're wiling to accept the answer.  It sounds like your sister wasn't, and it would be just another, possibly more effective, way to persuade them to do what she wanted them to do, which is not what they wanted to do.  That's where I bristle.

Maybe I give people too much credit (there's always a first time 😀), but I'm a strong believer in letting people decide their own fates, and respecting their decisions.  Obviously respecting their decisions means not trying to change them to suit you--that's a no-brainer.  But to me it also means not thinking what you say leads them "further along the path."  They were already there!

I think the cell-phone son is disrespectful on both counts.

Quote

And for years I've been using all the influence, persuasion, nudge techniques to try and convince him to get a cell phone, but he is a classic resistor. And I suspect all of those techniques simply pushed him further along the path.

Maybe I don't know what a classic resistor is, but it sounds like his dad knows he doesn't want a cell phone, and that's that.  To conclude he pushed his dad further along the path, he either thinks his dad wasn't at 100%, or thinks his dad was at 100% and he magically pushed him to 110%.

And he said "now there is such deep suspicion and resistance anytime I even broach the subject."  Maybe it's just annoyance, which isn't the same as resistance.

His solution?  A ploy "to create an environment and room for him to begin to discover this technology on his own."  Has it still not occurred to him that his father doesn't WANT to discover this technology, even on his own?

I've read suggestions about how to persuade "that uncle at Thanksgiving" that he's not dealing with facts, and I do think haranguing in that situation can make him more defensive and entrenched.  But I think that's different from how someone wants to live his life, where he's not having to choose between two different realities, and reject one of them.

I'm assuming the dad has accepted the risks of not having a cell phone on his hip.  If he's willing to live with that, why resist?  (Ha!  The son is actually the resistor!)

Frankly, I envy both the 90-year-old's situation and your parents' situation, and I'm sad they had to put with his son and your sister, respectively.  I guess it's always something.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I think that's a perfect approach IF you're wiling to accept the answer.  It sounds like your sister wasn't, and it would be just another, possibly more effective, way to persuade them to do what she wanted them to do, which is not what they wanted to do.  That's where I bristle....

Definitely.
Reading the entirety of your post was helpful to me in accepting that there was, as Dad always used to tell me: "No coulda woulda shoulda," meaning my sister was (and is) always going to feel the need to control everyone, which wouldn't be so terrible if she had more empathy, in the sense of being able to see things from the other person's perspective. But she is only able to imagine how she would want things to be if she were in their place (along with all of her resources and baggage) — which is not really empathy.

Fortunately, there are no people left in her circle over whom she has the power to exert control. Maybe this will result in a change of character as she gets out of the habit? I'm thinking of the title character of Silas Marner in the 19th century novel by George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans).

Edited August 4, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Laura Holt]

@shapeshifter your sister reminds me of my SIL.  Arguably her heart may be in the right place but she is incapable of seeing things from any POV but her own.  When her father was in the last months of his life he still appreciated a little treat of candy now and then.  We checked with the nurses and they assured us that there was nothing wrong with this - if anything let him have what he enjoys.  Makes sense.  My SIL though was insistent that sugar was bad for "daddy" and tried to get us all to agree that we wouldn't honour his requests because, basically, she knew best.  

Edited August 4, 2023 by Laura Holt

[realityplease]

My heart goes out to all of you who are or have struggled with the issues that go along with dealing with aging parents.  Please don't beat yourselves up for things you think you should or shouldn't do or have done. Just as there's no parenting school, there's no school to deal with the role reversals & issues that go along with taking care of aging parents. There's no right or wrong answers - though others may give advice. All you can do is try your best & do as much or little as you feel you need, can, or want to do.

My folks were doing great - more than great - traveling & independent into their late 80's. Fit & healthy. But 2000 miles away. They'd rent a place near me for the  winters but I couldn't convince them to move permanently. Then it was too late. 

At 88, my mom had a stroke. A year later, she'd recovered, only needing a walker, or at times, a transport chair.  But a year after her stroke, my dad had a stroke. Didn't recover well. Couldn't walk or speak (but for yes or no), had a feeding tube & after months, slowly started to eat again. Still, after some months, I got them out & about. Hauled wheelchairs in & out of the car. Kept me in shape!

Thank goodness, a month before my dad's stroke, he & my mom named me Power of Attorney for finances & health care. Clairvoyance or luck - not a moment too soon. Made a world of difference when they got ill. For anyone that doesn't have this - please do get these.  

My dad's mind stayed sharp. My mom, however, got dementia & like a toddler - willful, wandered, tantrums. Other times, sharp, aware, functional. Had to be watched constantly - sweet one moment, in a fury the next. Keeping a caregiver for my dad, no problem, but hers would quit. Eventually I had to do all of her care. Mostly she was ok with me, but I'd be scratched & bloody sometimes too. Meds didn't help. So I'd be with them 28-30 days each month, then fly home for 1-2 days (sometimes for less than 24 hrs if plane delays) only to rush back as they hated having caregivers in their home even for a few days.

And crazed if separated from each other for a minute - so by doing this, I kept them together & in their own home until my dad died a year after his stroke, shortly after their 70th anniversary.  By then, my mom had progressed to middle stage dementia. Wanted to go "home" even when she was home (likely her childhood home because, sometimes in her mind she was 16, & I was a childhood friend who she'd demand to take her to visit her parents & grandmother (of course, dead for decades.) Other times, she knew me.

When my dad died, I put her in a memory care assisted living facility. Couldn't fly her to a place near me - too chancey that she'd freak on the plane - sedation didn't reliably work on her.  With her 10-12 hrs each day. Took her to therapy, activities, movies, hairdresser, rides, lunch - to stave off tantrums that might get her kicked out. For the next 2 1/2 years, until she died.  A 5-yr ordeal of shopping, cooking, tending for them, multiple hospitalizations & dr. visits, a revolving door of caregivers, med changes, buying medical accoutrements like shower seats, toilet chairs, gait belts, etc. Total immersion. At least when my mom got to the facility, I could sleep at night instead of waking with them several times a night.

Crazy thing is, my younger brother lived in the same city as my folks. Never relieved me for even a day.  He traveled the lst year of my mom's illness. Fought with my dad when my dad was hospitalized & marched out. Never visited or called my dad thereafter & hung up on me when I called him. Turned up at my dad's funeral & visited my mom during her lst week in assisted living - after that, never again visited, though he'd call. (She thought she was talking to her father!) Came to her funeral &, of course, showed up to divide assets. 50/50. I'd been able to afford those 60 months of airfares & had the time (but if I never have to take another red-eye...) & since my brother had been generous to my parents during their lifetime (except for ghosting them those last 4-5 years), I didn't feel that was unfair. I just wanted to move on.

I did what I felt I had to do, my brother did what he wanted. That's how I deal with that. My brother & I still don't speak. Sadly. We used to speak 3-4 times a week always - until the folks got ill.  He said at my mom's funeral that he couldn't deal with seeing them old & ill. Why he cut me out too, I don't know. But at the hospital when my mom first got ill, he told me, "I've got it planned. I'm going to ruin your life" & said many hateful things. Pulled out a chunk of my hair. Threw a glass of water in my face. Don't know what triggered it. (The nurses suspected drugs or mental issues.) I suspect he'd had a fight with my parents before they got sick & he blamed me for something my dad said in that fight - but not a clue about what. And likely never will know.

Anyway, that's my story.  Though my friends at the time thought I did too much & they're bitter about my brother's ghosting, I have no regrets, no second guessing. I accept that I'll never know what's going on with my brother or why. I tried to reconcile several times but it's not worked - so I just accept it's how he wants things to be. My parents were mostly good parents to me (no one's perfect -in a long life, a lot happens, & they tried) so I felt I should be there for them. Though I would never expect others to do the same as I did - especially if not lucky enough to have the time that I did.  

I really feel for what some of you are going through.  Sometimes things end easily. Sometimes not. Sometimes doctors don't explain options or what's going on too well - either afraid of lawsuits or they just don't know - there's a wide range of situations with no certainty or precision. Traveling back & forth sucks. For those with work or family concerns as well, it's an extremely hard thing to balance. You make all these sacrifices - that's the day one or both of your folks make you wonder why the heck you're doing it. But sometimes they're grateful, less scared, or better taken care of with you to be there or advocate for them & it's worth it. 

I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Having gone through it, I'm blessed things ended a month before Covid. And now with a light at the end of the tunnel, back to enjoying my life without regret for the lost years. I wish all of you peace in making the decisions you have to make.  It's not easy, not what you anticipate, or how it's shown in the movies. What you expect will happen, just might not, & you just have to roll with it.  Good luck. 

[PRgal]

My son spends most of the day at a table, drawing, cutting and pasting.  His artwork isn’t all that abstract anymore and he quite enjoys it.  And I have rediscovered my love of crayons because of him.  I more or less gave up on art when my Grade 8 art teacher basically said I had no talent (not in those words, but she didn’t like what I did and I didn’t do well in her class.  I took drama as my required arts credit for high school).  We plan to do some finger painting this weekend (something I haven’t done since I was 6!!!) too.  Enjoying the time we have since he goes back to school in a few weeks.  Summer just breezes by, doesn’t it? 

[ECM1231]

@realityplease, thank you for sharing your story. Sending you so many hugs and wishing you peace.

[shapeshifter]

Of course I just emailed this to my daughters:
🙃
https://youtu.be/RqFDwY0PZmY 
(comedian Nick Kroll’s impressions of everyone getting a call or text from Mom)

 

[Laura Holt]

14 hours ago, PRgal said:

 Summer just breezes by, doesn’t it? 

Definitely one of the defining things that marks the passage into adulthood!  I was at the mall with my granddaughter last week and of course the stores are pushing the back to school sales.  She said "but school is forever away still".  At her age it probably does feel that way!

[BlueSkies]

This isnt so much a vent but it involves my aunt.  I drove by her house and was thinking of saying hello.  But then I said to myself f that as she likes her routines and would be more surprised than anything just to see me pop up out of the blue.   It'd get awkward.

 

 

 

But yeah at the same time I imagine there's other families/what not where people are comfortable with each other like that just saying hello out of the blue 

[PRgal]

3 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

Definitely one of the defining things that marks the passage into adulthood!  I was at the mall with my granddaughter last week and of course the stores are pushing the back to school sales.  She said "but school is forever away still".  At her age it probably does feel that way!

But she's going to say "already?" in just a few weeks when she's reminded that school starts after the long weekend (unless she's at a French board school, which I understand usually starts earlier?)!  

Edited August 5, 2023 by PRgal

[shapeshifter]

36 minutes ago, BlueSkies said:

This isnt so much a vent but it involves my aunt.  I drove by her house and was thinking of saying hello.  But then I said to myself f that as she likes her routines and would be more surprised than anything just to see me pop up out of the blue.   It'd get awkward.

But yeah at the same time I imagine there's other families/what not where people are comfortable with each other like that just saying hello out of the blue 

I wish I'd had more family closer, but if she lives alone, I can understand your hesitation to surprise her.
But, at the same time, maybe give it a try? 
Might you even say when she comes to the door, something like: "Hi. If this isn't a good time, just tell me, but I was in the neighborhood..."
Maybe even have some food item you know she likes/uses?
And then ask her if she'd like more pop-in visits? 
Or not. 

 

I often think back to the days when I was single and friends would stop by unannounced. It was before cell phones, and I didn't have a landline. 
Nobody does that anymore — which is both a relief at times (naked after the shower and I left the towel in the dryer, LOL) and also a little sad. 
Your aunt is probably my age. 
I vote you give it a try, but go with your instincts too.

 

In contrast to having family you can drop in on:
We grew up so far from family that I have an aunt and cousins I've never met in person. 
A coworker once commissioned me to paint a picture of Mt. Shasta (where we both lived) and when I gave it to her she was taken aback by the name I signed it with (my "maiden" name since I was recently divorced). 
It is a very un-common name and was also the last name of the husband her sister had very recently divorced.
Turned out her sister had just divorced my cousin (who I'd never met).

[Laura Holt]

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

In contrast to having family you can drop in on:
We grew up so far from family that I have an aunt and cousins I've never met in person.

This is my family.  My mother and one of her sisters moved away from their hometown when they got married - in different directions.  When we would visit my grandparents we never coincided with when they would visit.  I got to "know" these cousins with the advent of Facebook.  Still haven't met two of them in person and odds are probably never will.

Anyway we never had family who were dropping in distance until my sisters and I had families of our own and managed to all live close to each other.  This is the better way to "family" IMO (assuming you get along of course!)

[Bastet]

I think unless you know someone is open to pop-ins, you shouldn't do it.  You could call and ask if it's a good time (so long as making clear you're happy driving on if it's not), but I think actually going to the door is an imposition.

(Personally, I despise them.)

[oliviabenson]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Of course I just emailed this to my daughters:
🙃
https://youtu.be/RqFDwY0PZmY 
(comedian Nick Kroll’s impressions of everyone getting a call or text from Mom)

 

I saw him live! He is very funny. I adore him.