S03.E12: I Am Abassin Zadran

[Cardie]

I can believe that Jared would have been shocked by the revelation about his parents and would have acted out.

 

 

Jared wasn't upset his parents were spies; he was upset that they were aghast at his being recruited by the KGB and were forbidding him from seeing his handler, with whom he was in love. The parents were in the way, so he killed them, his sister being collateral damage.

[millennium]

I wonder if it's now something Elizabeth thinks about since she put her hands on Paige in an effort to keep her quiet so Henry wouldn't hear.  Not that I think P or E would kill Paige, just that the idea that someone will want to do something to Paige if she decides to start talking must be terrifying to them as parents.  

 

Either at that safe house Philip uses or her own safe house, I presume.  

 

I wish now and then they would show some of the process involved in the creation of a new identity.   They did somewhat with Philip in this episode, but Elizabeth always just shows up picture-perfect.   It's a little too Alias.

[bluebonnet]

 

I wish now and then they would show some of the process involved in the creation of a new identity.   They did somewhat with Philip in this episode, but Elizabeth always just shows up picture-perfect.   It's a little too Alias.

I agree.  It's strange how the only time we've even been told about these safehouses happened to be when Liz wanted to have sex with "Clarke".  I wonder if we'll see more about their process of getting into a character through Paige's eyes.  Is this something she would be curious about, how they get around doing espionage without being identified?  

[PinkRibbons]

I've said it before, I'll say it again; if Paige is held hostage in Russia I can absolutely see Philip murdering his way through the Lubyanka to get her out if he has to. And I will ever believe killing one of their children is an option. I keep expecting the KGB to attack Paige or Henry under a false-flag operation to make their parents think the US poses such a large threat. And if that were to happen and P and E found out about it, I wouldn't be surprised to see them turn double-agent. Trust goes both ways and if the KGB doesn't have their trust, they've lost their agents and a whole lot of valuable information. That's why they have to be so careful about bringing in the kids.

[bluebonnet]

Philip would never believe a hypothetical false flag operation because he 'gets' America and knows that this wouldn't be something they'd do.  Something like that would serve to turn Elizabeth, probably.  She'd not take that shit lying down.  She beat the crap out of Claudia even though Claudia did something perfectly reasonable in questioning them for suspected mole activity.  

[sistermagpie]

Well, to be fair, even if she has opinions about them being Russian spies, would she feel safe or comfortable TELLING them that?

 

 

Imo--yup, she totally would! I think she just hasn't moved on to that aspect of it yet. She's starting at the stuff that she feels first, which is the personal betrayal.

 

Jared wasn't upset his parents were spies; he was upset that they were aghast at his being recruited by the KGB and were forbidding him from seeing his handler, with whom he was in love. The parents were in the way, so he killed them, his sister being collateral damage.

 

 

Well, that's what he said months after the fact, but I think there were clues that he was really upset at the lying first--he kept saying they never loved him. Then he latched on to Kate as the perfect substitute/revenge for the lies, and then his parents again tried to cut him out of that and went crazy and destroyed the entire family--the entire lie, iow. I think he went through very much the same feelings as Paige is, starting first with the fact that the family is a lie. Only Paige, luckily, was told the truth and is able to ask her parents questions and have them reassure her. Jared was just thrown into the arms of a handler with her own lies and manipulation.

 

I can't imagine why Elizabeth would want to leave Paige in Russia. She doesn't want anyone else raising her child. The Centre doesn't get anything out of kidnapping and terrorizing her.

 

FWIW, the showrunners have said that no, Elizabeth and Paige would never kill their children.

 

Maybe this is a stupid question, but is there any possibility that this trip isn't sanctioned by the Centre at all? That Philip came up with a plan to smuggle her in themselves and Elizabeth went along with it? It seems impossible for many reasons, but we never did see the Centre agree, so I wonder.

[shura]

Well, to be fair, even if she has opinions about them being Russian spies, would she feel safe or comfortable TELLING them that?

 

Why wouldn't she feel comfortable saying something like "How am I supposed to be okay with the fact that you are fighting my home country?" The show could certainly have her say something like that if they wanted us to know that Paige is, in fact, not okay with it. To me, it's actually less safe to just go off to Pastor Tim and let P&E assume the worst, and Paige feels just fine doing that.

[Blakeston]

Well, that's what he said months after the fact, but I think there were clues that he was really upset at the lying first--he kept saying they never loved him. Then he latched on to Kate as the perfect substitute/revenge for the lies, and then his parents again tried to cut him out of that and went crazy and destroyed the entire family--the entire lie, iow. I think he went through very much the same feelings as Paige is, starting first with the fact that the family is a lie. Only Paige, luckily, was told the truth and is able to ask her parents questions and have them reassure her. Jared was just thrown into the arms of a handler with her own lies and manipulation.

 

Considering how the Center handled Jared, it seems to me that Elizabeth and Philip should never have believed that the Center would give a crap about what they wanted for Paige.

 

Unless I have this wrong, Emmett and Leann told the Center, "We don't want Jared to become a spy, and we don't want him to know we're spies. We want him to have a normal life."

 

And so the Center:

 

a) sent in a much-older woman to seduce their underage son

b) informed him that his parents were spies

c) manipulated him into becoming a spy, and

d) essentially told him, "Your parents don't think you have what it takes to be a spy, but we believe in you."

 

I get that they're unlikely to use that same tactic again, being as it failed spectacularly. But surely it's proof that the Center doesn't give a rat's ass what the illegals want for their children.

[Couch Sweet Potato]

I'm sort of concerned about Paige. Teenagers always think they know more than their parents, especially about religion.

 

When I was a teen, I had religion and my parents didn't. I smugly thought I had everything figured out. I would totally have trusted my church friends over my parents, and my parents weren't even spies and hadn't lied to me. I absolutely would have confided in my pastor the secrets of my home. I would have thought I was doing the right thing and saving their lives and souls.

 

Now, I'm a Socialist atheist, so see how well that all turned out?

 

I hope Paige isn't like I was at 16.

[sistermagpie]

When I was a teen, I had religion and my parents didn't. I smugly thought I had everything figured out. I would totally have trusted my church friends over my parents, and my parents weren't even spies and hadn't lied to me. I absolutely would have confided in my pastor the secrets of my home. I would have thought I was doing the right thing and saving their lives and souls.

 

 

I remember talking to somebody who was in a church group like this and they said the same thing--that the main thing they did in their group was talk about how they were basically better than everyone else, and anyone who wasn't in the church was just kind of sad and not as good people.

 

Plus, Paige is her mother's daughter. I don't think either of them get their ethics from a precisely...compassionate? standpoint? Maybe that's the wrong word, but they both seem to like rules and categories that are black and white. They're less likely to judge people as individuals. As evidenced by Paige having such a bad reaction to Gregory being a drug dealer. We'll see if she has an interest in understanding her parents as people rather than just judging them as liars and Soviets.

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 7:45 AM, shura said:

Yeah, I really don't get that. I think that your life is what you know. If it turned out that I was adopted, and my biological parents were not the people who raised me and whom I loved,  I honestly think that I would have no interest in meeting my real parents. Why would Paige be interested in meeting her biological grandmother? It baffles me. And really, why does it matter to Paige if Henry is her biological brother? He is the guy she loves, the person she agreed to never tell her parents about his fear of being eaten by a bear on that trip. She has certain feelings for Henry whatever he is. Would anything change if she learned he is not her biological Brother?

Irl, people are different. Some adoptive children think like you would whereas the others are keen to learn who their biological parents are. Especially if they hadn't been told about adoption, they can be especially angry to the parents who raised them up.

Paige seems to be of latter sort. She is angry that she has been lied during her whole life. Her whole identity has been shattered. One must remember that she is a teenager to whom her own feelings and needs are most important things in the world.

I recently saw a Polish movie Ida where the heroine is told that she must meet, her only relative, her aunt, before she gives her vows to become a nun. The aunt  tells her that she is a Jew and her parents and brother were murdered during the WW2 and they visit the village where the murder happened and find outr who the murderer was, the aut commits suicide - and never once Ida even rises her voice! A great actress who tells much with only her eyes. 

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 8:44 AM, RedheadZombie said:

Also, who wants to meet the woman who raised Elizabeth?  I sure don't.  I can't imagine a less warm and fuzzy person.  She turned her kid over to the KGB without a second thought.  Not interested.  It cannot be lost on Philip that Paige often clashes with Elizabeth's stern and rigid personality.  How is going to this stern and rigid country and meeting the zealot who created the zealot, going to reassure Paige?  Paige is intelligent, mature, and clever - she's not going to miss the poverty, lack of freedom, etc. 

I have visited many parts of the Soviet Union (and later in Russia) and I must say that this is extremely prejudiced talk. I didn't of course like the Soviet system, but Russians as private persons were and are extremly warm, friendly and hospitable people (as are also Georgians, Ukrainians etc.). 

Paige is intelligent and clever but she is anything but mature, just the opposite. She is a devious teenager who is manipulated by her pastor. 

How can a Westerner who has never lacked anything condemn people like Elizabeth's mother who has experienced WW2?  

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 8:49 PM, SmoothCriminal said:

Were Americans really allowed to enter the Soviet Union (generally speaking)? Weren't foreigners regarded with suspicion there? I am sorry if these questions come of as stupid, but I have no personal recollection of the Soviet Union at all. I was born in 1990. That's why I just can't imagine how this will work out in the show, but I guess we will all find out next week.

Of course the Americans could get tourist visas like everybody else. 

I know from the 1970ies one case when the visa was at first accepted but denied in the boat beach.  They were Estonian men who had fled in 1944 before the second Soviet occupation began. They came every year to Helsinki whose achives had much material about the indepebdent Estonia. 

However, not all emigrées had their entry blocked but some refused to visit before their country became free. One such man never met his parents again.   

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 8:56 PM, scowl said:

Everyone was regarded with suspicion there. They will be guests of the Soviet Union. While they're there, they'll see nothing but clean streets, happy citizens, and well furnished houses with refrigerators full of good food.

True and false. 

General suspicion was true enough, from the beginning of customs where they took away such items as anti-Soviet literature (religious, political, "pornographic") and other daily papers than Communist ones etc. Also extra clothing (nylons, jeans) could arise suspicions as it was generally meant to sell but it was easy to get it through. One couldn't have any rubles, they could be changed only inside the Soviet Union. When one left, one must have no rubles and less foreign currency than when one arrivided, or at least exactly the same sum (which one must remember when one changed money in the black market).

That said, the Soviet visa had no such questions as American ones (Are you or have you been a member of X-party or related organizations? Have you committed war crimes?). I must say that I found also Americans suspicious and funnily so. 

Everybody also knew that the Soviet guides must report about discussions and the hotel rooms could be bugged.  But of course they simply didn't have workforce to listen to all, so they concentrated on important people which included people who visited often f.ex. for business and had Soviet friends. 

Actually the Soviets were not at all good to keep the Potemkin slide. One didn't need to to be Sherlock Holmes to learn that there was very little one could buy in the ordinary shops. There were special shops for tourists, where one could buy only with foreign currency. 

On the other hand, by exchanging money in the black market, one could eat and drink like a millionaire for a week - or simply got himself drunk (which was the habit of many Finnish men in Leningrad and Tallinn). 

The Soviet visas was given not only for the exact time, but also the exact place, f.ec. for Leningrad. Also, a quite big area behind the border was denied to the tourists - a car could only use the main road f.ex. from the Finnish border to Leningrad. However, it wasn't difficult to find a taxi driver who would accept the foreign currency and make a secret trip to the former homes that the Finns had had before 1944 when Karelia was given up to the Soviet Union.    

In the end I must say that the standard of living was lowest in the 90ies after the Soviet Union collapsed. That was especially true in the countryside.

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 9:08 PM, PinkRibbons said:

I sincerely doubt that Paige and Elizabeth will make it to Russia. For The Drama I'm sure they will run into trouble on the way, but on another note completely, Paige is a walking security risk, and it has nothing to do with what she knows.

 

The sensible thing to assume is that if the KGB has deep-cover agents in America, then the CIA has them in Russia. The clothes would be a dead give-away, but also one look at Elizabeth's American haircut will tell them she's a visiting American, and they will try to get pictures of her that could feasibly get back to the CIA. So okay, they don't bring them in as important guest, they even disguise both Paige and Elizabeth against this. Put them in Soviet clothes, wigs even. Still dangerous. Paige is an American. She smiles with her teeth, she holds herself differently from a Soviet Teen. She walks differently. She can't speak a word of Russian.

 

I'm serious about this -- my mother and I went back to Free Lithuania in the early 2000s and every single person that saw me did a double-take. With my mother it was because of her denim skirts -- older women in Europe weren't wearing them at the time. Otherwise she wasn't regarded as such an oddity. But me? Granted, I was short, dark-eyed and dark-haired in a country full of tall blonde people, but I was not an impossibility -- they had people from all over Europe visiting. I was dressed like every single other teen I saw -- jeans, t-shirt, jacket. And yet something made people look twice. It was my earrings from Claire's or small details on my jacket cuffs. My braces were slightly different. At one point Mama and I walked to the city's only synagogue and the Rabbi and his wife pegged us as Americans from the way we walked there. (The Rabbi and his family were American Missionaries from New York, and really glad to see us. We had a meal with the congregation after the service and the Rabbi introduced us with a joke about almost doubting my mother on her being Jewish until he saw me. This made me realize that one of the reasons I was getting so many confused once-overs was because a lot of people in the city didn't know what a Jew looked like anymore, especially the kids. )

 

Paige won't have a problem fitting in with her looks; but she has a lifetime of mannerisms to hide. Drawing attention to her in Russia could put her family in serious danger from the CIA.

You are quite right that Paige couldn't behave like a Soviet teen. However, as there was no need to her move around on her own, so the meeting could have been arranged so that nobody saw her.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 5:43 PM, Bannon said:

Oh, I understand why they behave in the manner they do. To me, it is the best written element of the show. For years, I used to buy into the argument put forth, in defense of some of the people who founded this country, that it was somehow unfair to judge the supporters of slavery harshly,,because their behavior needed to be viewed through the context of time and place. Over time, however, I began to recognize that there were plenty of people in that exact same context, who were able to plainly recognize slavery for it's nature, and that it was not unreasonable to think that the likes of Jefferson had the abiity to do the same. I tend to view those that supported the Soviet state in the same way    

I understand your PV.

However, to me the most important thing is to understand people in history and fiction and I can't do if I condemn them according to my values.

I think that a truly great author could be an Atheist and yet decribe a religious person well, or don't like Communism and yet describe a Communist well.

I like this show because P&E whose ideology the audience doesn't share do evil things but are still decribed human, not as monsters.  And as the Soviet Union has fallen and this is a show, I don't think feel a demand that P&E must be caught.        

On ‎17‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 7:14 PM, Bannon said:

There is nothing we've seen in Elizabeth yet that would make it a surprise that she supported Stalin's wholesale slaughter. The official party position after Khruschev's secret speech was that Stalin was wrong in persecuting fellow communists, but there was never any acknowledgement, for instance, that the slaughter of millions of middle class farmers in Ukraine  was wrong.

 

On ‎18‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 0:54 AM, Blakeston said:

As crazy as Elizabeth is, I can't see Elizabeth standing up for murdering millions of innocents. Trying to cover it up after the fact, maybe, but not embracing it. I also don't think she would approve of Stalin arresting family members of deserters, considering that she and her mother could have been arrested.

I must agree with Bannon. The kulaks weren't innocents to Communists. Without liquadating them the other peasant couldn't be forced to join the kolkhozes. 

However, the truly sad point is that Elizabeth's father was also a victim, having been executed during the WW2, officially for deserting but probably for a much minor act. It was quite usual that inexperinced soldiers got panic en masse but could become good soldiers later. The Soviet army didn't forgive anything but had very severe penalties.

It wasn't uncommon that children of the victims became model Soviet citizens as it was their only opportinity to succeed in that society.  

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 10:59 PM, PinkRibbons said:

If we accept that spies like Elizabeth and Philip could exist in America, it is absolutely possible that there could have been an actually American Philip and Elizabeth deep cover in Russia:

 

1. America had waaaaay more unaccented Russian-speakers than Russia did of American-Accented English speakers. There was immigration to America right after the war, not to mention even more in the early seventies. Tons of these immigrants still spoke Russian at home and had children that could speak it unaccented. Hell, give me a couple of years of more formalized training to fix up my pronunciation of certain words and vocabulary and I would be able to pass as fluent, no problem. And I'm American through and through. As for cultural training, there were more than enough Russian natives in America to work as consultants. They're working as consultants for the show right now, to get the Russian details right. So the idea of having an American spy posing as a Russian native is not at all far-fetched.

 

2. A huge chunk of Russia's records were destroyed in the war. Say the American Phil and Liz came to Russia in '63, the same way the Russian versions came to America. Our Philip and Elizabeth are living under the identities stolen from dead American children. In Russia all a pair of spies would have to do once smuggled into the country would be to say that they and their families came from a town that was destroyed during the War, record hall included. A pair of war orphans at that time would not arouse any suspicions.*

I think that the Soviet Union and the USA were similar in that there were no official system like the Lutheran chuch has kept in Sweden and Finland for centuries. Here, a person couldn't be married like "Clark" did without a certificate from his parish (or if he wasn't a member of Luther or Greek Orthodox Church, from the registry office) that he wasn't already married. And if it was needed to sort out whether Martha was married, she couldn't simply lie that she wasn't, she must have presented an official certificate. (Also, if one wanted to study or applied a job in communal or state sector, one had to have an official certificate. Everyone also had medicals records since birth, and the army would have had a record about "Clark".) 

That's not to say that one couldn't create a false identity here, only it was much more difficult.

Actually at least some false identities for the Soviet intelligence were created in Finland during the Cold War with the help of a Greek Orthodox priest. These persons couldn't have lived long in Finland without been caught, but it wasn't the plan, either, and once the false identity was created, they moved abroad.       

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 10:59 PM, PinkRibbons said:

1. America had waaaaay more unaccented Russian-speakers than Russia did of American-Accented English speakers. There was immigration to America right after the war, not to mention even more in the early seventies. Tons of these immigrants still spoke Russian at home and had children that could speak it unaccented. Hell, give me a couple of years of more formalized training to fix up my pronunciation of certain words and vocabulary and I would be able to pass as fluent, no problem. And I'm American through and through. As for cultural training, there were more than enough Russian natives in America to work as consultants. They're working as consultants for the show right now, to get the Russian details right. So the idea of having an American spy posing as a Russian native is not at all far-fetched.

There were Americans who emigrated to the Soviet Union in the 30ies in order to build Socialism. Many of them were executed 1937-8 after they had confessed "spying". Athough it's unlikely that the American inteligence would have been interested to know f.ex. how many cows were in the kolkhoz they were working, it's not quite impossible that there were some who were really spies.

Unfortunately, the Soviet habit under Stalin was not "catch real culprits" but "catch 100 (or 10000 or 10 000) people, maybe there is one who is guilty among them - or one who will do something in the future".    

[RedHawk]

On April 16, 2015 at 10:48 AM, RedHawk said:

 

 

While I totally agree with the first part, I can't give thumbs up to the rest of the post. I don't agree that Paige has grown up thinking the Soviet Union and Soviet spies are bad bad bad and comparable to how we saw Nazis then or terrorists today. I was born in 1962 and never felt that way about the USSR. We were not "indoctrinated". I studied Russian in college -- many educated people already knew that the Soviet Union was collapsing economically and was a shithole where the citizens were miserable. '50s era blacklisting was an embarrassment from the past. Fallout shelters and duck-and-cover were jokes to us. Our impression of Russian spies was Boris and Natasha!

 

Most of my generation weren't afraid of b-b-b-bombing (anyone remember that Reagan open mic gaffe?) until Raygun Ronnie came up with the "Evil Empire" moniker and conservatives grabbed hold of it. Many of us were less afraid of the Soviet Union than Reagan's policies. "The Day After" and all that nuclear panic was mid '80s, not '70s when Paige was a kid and the Cuban Crisis was a distant memory. The anti-nuke movement was indeed about getting rid of the danger of mutually assured destruction but also the danger of meltdowns and nuclear waste. 

 

Edited to add: Reagan's Evil Empire speech was in March 1983 and "The Day After" was released in November 1983. What I'm saying is that anti-Soviet doctrine did not saturate the media when Paige was a child and young teen as it's about to now. In the story, the date is late February 1983. We saw a TV ad for the finale of MASH, which was February 28, 1983.

 

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 4:45 AM, shura said:

Why wouldn't she feel comfortable saying something like "How am I supposed to be okay with the fact that you are fighting my home country?" The show could certainly have her say something like that if they wanted us to know that Paige is, in fact, not okay with it. To me, it's actually less safe to just go off to Pastor Tim and let P&E assume the worst, and Paige feels just fine doing that.

Because that "fighting my home country" is abstract and impersonal whereas to Paige, being the person she is at 15 years, it's all personal and concrete: about lying.

Also, "fighting my country" can mean almost anything. Pastor Tim and Paige's anti-nukes campaign can seen by some people as "fighting my country".  

One must also remember that Paige knows only that her parents are spies but not their horrible deeds the audience knows. 

On the other hand, it's possible that she, being an idealist, would agree that it's right to help Lucia although the US government supports contras.

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 5:08 PM, RedHawk said:

I agree that she's all in. Taking a quote the film Gorky Park, which came out in 1984, she might as well say, "Clark, you are my only country now." She may not quite be there yet, but her phone call to her parents was a "just in case you never hear from me again" contact. She may not feel certain she's in mortal danger -- or she didn't until the wig came off -- but she knows she can't stay in DC, maybe not even in the U.S. 

Was she really going to her parents' house? I think maybe she was just doing that to show Clark she was serious about wanting to get out, and maybe see if he would allow it. She could have left, called in to work that she had to take emergency leave because of a parent's illness, and got on the next plane. Edited to add: But then, she knows she would have to return to her job sometime, because if she just quit suddenly (even with "sick parent" as an excuse) Stan would really be suspicious and have her investigated. 

I keep remembering that Martha, while loyal to the USA and the FBI, also has embedded in her memory that conversation where Stan and Gaad called her ugly and laughed at her. She is much more loyal to "Clark" and has been ever since he played that (altered) tape for her. She thought at the time that she was helping him to "oversee" her department and she willingly did it for him and their marriage. Now she knows it was way more than that, and that she has betrayed her country. He's the only hope she has.

An insightful analysis.

By threatening to leave instead of just leaving with a goodbye, Martha gave Clark yet another chance to make bind her to himself even more stronger. Which he did by taking his wig out and showing his "true face" to her. Only, it's only his semblance.

Just as before, Martha didn't demand to know in whose service Clark is. She never once had accused him like Paige does her parents that "so all this had been just lies". She's only terrified because of the situation she is in, of being caught and sentenced.

And the remedy is the same: she wants him to assure "I am your husband and I love you."

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 4:35 PM, RedHawk said:

When Martha met with Clark after Hans dropped her off, Clark said, "We may have to go away somewhere... somewhere new." He's still doing the Clark persona and trying to convince her that he's going to get her out and they will be together. That was sad for me, and yet I think Philip will try to find a way to extract her and give her a new life. Maybe it will be a life in Russia, but she'll be alive. My impression is that he feels some responsibility for conning her so deeply (marriage!) and putting her in a situation where she could lose everything. 

Very insightfull. 

Plus, Philip thinks that Martha can still be useful inside the FBI. 

[Roseanna]

We weren't told why Stan visited Martha, but I don't think that he suspected her. If he had, he would have asked to use the toilet where there is usually some items that show that one has a relationship. Not that this is suspicious in it, but keeping it secret is.  

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

We weren't told why Stan visited Martha, but I don't think that he suspected her. If he had, he would have asked to use the toilet where there is usually some items that show that one has a relationship. Not that this is suspicious in it, but keeping it secret is.  

I thought it was explicit that he suspected her, though it was a very general suspicion at that point. I don't remember if we saw the whole visit--he might have used the bathroom at this point, but I thought his looking at Shogun was supposed to signal the same thing--it was a sign, to him, that there was someone else often in this apartment. 

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

We weren't told why Stan visited Martha, but I don't think that he suspected her. If he had, he would have asked to use the toilet where there is usually some items that show that one has a relationship. Not that this is suspicious in it, but keeping it secret is.  

He definitely suspected her.  Right after that he told Aderholt he did, and Aderholt agreed to keep Martha busy so Stan could search her place.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought it was explicit that he suspected her, though it was a very general suspicion at that point. I don't remember if we saw the whole visit--he might have used the bathroom at this point, but I thought his looking at Shogun was supposed to signal the same thing--it was a sign, to him, that there was someone else often in this apartment. 

His spidery senses were tingling, and I understood that.  "I think Martha is bad."  When you work with someone every day, I think, even if you aren't FBI and used to "reading people" as Stan was, especially in his months undercover, you sense if something has changed with them.  People in love are one of the most obvious things to spot, at least for me, heck, I could often tell if an employee was fighting with their spouse.  Martha changed first by that love glow spring in her step, getting great sex vibe that Amador picked up on (Stan had his own issues with Nina then, but Amador did mention Martha to him) and then later the tension after Mr. Taffett showed up.  I completely bought that Stan knew something was off.

[Umbelina]

On 4/21/2015 at 4:59 PM, Cardie said:

 

Jared wasn't upset his parents were spies; he was upset that they were aghast at his being recruited by the KGB and were forbidding him from seeing his handler, with whom he was in love. The parents were in the way, so he killed them, his sister being collateral damage.

It was both, and I think the young "handler" fostered some of his anger at his parents as well.  It was a huge mistake.  Her job was to recruit him, and she did that, but in a very shortsighted way.

On 4/21/2015 at 5:09 PM, millennium said:

 

I wish now and then they would show some of the process involved in the creation of a new identity.   They did somewhat with Philip in this episode, but Elizabeth always just shows up picture-perfect.   It's a little too Alias.

I read an interview where they said the did film more of those scenes, but they were very boring.  In the end, they had them taking off the disguises, because it was quicker and, to them, just as effective.

On 4/21/2015 at 6:20 PM, bluebonnet said:

Philip would never believe a hypothetical false flag operation because he 'gets' America and knows that this wouldn't be something they'd do.  Something like that would serve to turn Elizabeth, probably.  She'd not take that shit lying down.  She beat the crap out of Claudia even though Claudia did something perfectly reasonable in questioning them for suspected mole activity.  

Yes, I don't think it would have worked either, for exactly the reasons you give.  Philip would see through it, and with a few words from him, even reluctant Elizabeth would as well.  She didn't trust Claudia at all.  Eventually of course, by season 6 the old war horse

Spoiler

succeeds in conning Elizabeth,

but not then.

On 4/21/2015 at 6:17 PM, PinkRibbons said:

I've said it before, I'll say it again; if Paige is held hostage in Russia I can absolutely see Philip murdering his way through the Lubyanka to get her out if he has to. And I will ever believe killing one of their children is an option. I keep expecting the KGB to attack Paige or Henry under a false-flag operation to make their parents think the US poses such a large threat. And if that were to happen and P and E found out about it, I wouldn't be surprised to see them turn double-agent. Trust goes both ways and if the KGB doesn't have their trust, they've lost their agents and a whole lot of valuable information. That's why they have to be so careful about bringing in the kids.

The idea of Philip acting Lubyanka is ridiculous.  Sorry, but I've read and listened to so much about that place in the past three years that it's beyond horrifying.  Philip would die if he tried.  Extremely painfully.

On 5/13/2017 at 11:33 AM, Roseanna said:

Irl, people are different. Some adoptive children think like you would whereas the others are keen to learn who their biological parents are. Especially if they hadn't been told about adoption, they can be especially angry to the parents who raised them up.

Paige seems to be of latter sort. She is angry that she has been lied during her whole life. Her whole identity has been shattered. One must remember that she is a teenager to whom her own feelings and needs are most important things in the world.

I recently saw a Polish movie Ida where the heroine is told that she must meet, her only relative, her aunt, before she gives her vows to become a nun. The aunt  tells her that she is a Jew and her parents and brother were murdered during the WW2 and they visit the village where the murder happened and find outr who the murderer was, the aut commits suicide - and never once Ida even rises her voice! A great actress who tells much with only her eyes. 

I have visited many parts of the Soviet Union (and later in Russia) and I must say that this is extremely prejudiced talk. I didn't of course like the Soviet system, but Russians as private persons were and are extremly warm, friendly and hospitable people (as are also Georgians, Ukrainians etc.). 

Paige is intelligent and clever but she is anything but mature, just the opposite. She is a devious teenager who is manipulated by her pastor. 

How can a Westerner who has never lacked anything condemn people like Elizabeth's mother who has experienced WW2?  

I don't think American visitors were ever allowed to talk to actual Russian people when they toured the USSR.  As a matter of fact they were warned against this, not for their own safety, but because of the possibly severe consequences for any regular citizens they happened to encounter.  I'm so interested in this though, as a Polish citizen, were you allowed to do that? 

Westerners can I think.  Those from the USA?  You are correct, unless they have studied just how bad it was and are deeply empathetic, they can't.  We, of course had a few foreign wars on our land in the beginning, but it's too long ago to remember.  The only real war we've ever experienced is the civil war, and of course, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, but that was so far from the mainland.  Most USA people have no idea what it's like for endless bombing and blockades, for no food, and for tanks in the street, let alone foreign occupation.

On 5/14/2017 at 2:33 AM, Roseanna said:

Of course the Americans could get tourist visas like everybody else. 

I know from the 1970ies one case when the visa was at first accepted but denied in the boat beach.  They were Estonian men who had fled in 1944 before the second Soviet occupation began. They came every year to Helsinki whose achives had much material about the indepebdent Estonia. 

However, not all emigrées had their entry blocked but some refused to visit before their country became free. One such man never met his parents again.   

True and false. 

General suspicion was true enough, from the beginning of customs where they took away such items as anti-Soviet literature (religious, political, "pornographic") and other daily papers than Communist ones etc. Also extra clothing (nylons, jeans) could arise suspicions as it was generally meant to sell but it was easy to get it through. One couldn't have any rubles, they could be changed only inside the Soviet Union. When one left, one must have no rubles and less foreign currency than when one arrivided, or at least exactly the same sum (which one must remember when one changed money in the black market).

That said, the Soviet visa had no such questions as American ones (Are you or have you been a member of X-party or related organizations? Have you committed war crimes?). I must say that I found also Americans suspicious and funnily so. 

Everybody also knew that the Soviet guides must report about discussions and the hotel rooms could be bugged.  But of course they simply didn't have workforce to listen to all, so they concentrated on important people which included people who visited often f.ex. for business and had Soviet friends. 

Actually the Soviets were not at all good to keep the Potemkin slide. One didn't need to to be Sherlock Holmes to learn that there was very little one could buy in the ordinary shops. There were special shops for tourists, where one could buy only with foreign currency. 

On the other hand, by exchanging money in the black market, one could eat and drink like a millionaire for a week - or simply got himself drunk (which was the habit of many Finnish men in Leningrad and Tallinn). 

The Soviet visas was given not only for the exact time, but also the exact place, f.ec. for Leningrad. Also, a quite big area behind the border was denied to the tourists - a car could only use the main road f.ex. from the Finnish border to Leningrad. However, it wasn't difficult to find a taxi driver who would accept the foreign currency and make a secret trip to the former homes that the Finns had had before 1944 when Karelia was given up to the Soviet Union.    

In the end I must say that the standard of living was lowest in the 90ies after the Soviet Union collapsed. That was especially true in the countryside.

You are quite right that Paige couldn't behave like a Soviet teen. However, as there was no need to her move around on her own, so the meeting could have been arranged so that nobody saw her.   

Fascinating post.  I would especially like you to say more about the bolded part.  I've read so much, and I had a Russian friend who told me so much about the desperate situation both the 4-5 years before and after the fall of the USSR.  Still though, more information is always welcome for me.

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

An insightful analysis.

By threatening to leave instead of just leaving with a goodbye, Martha gave Clark yet another chance to make bind her to himself even more stronger. Which he did by taking his wig out and showing his "true face" to her. Only, it's only his semblance.

Just as before, Martha didn't demand to know in whose service Clark is. She never once had accused him like Paige does her parents that "so all this had been just lies". She's only terrified because of the situation she is in, of being caught and sentenced.

And the remedy is the same: she wants him to assure "I am your husband and I love you."

Also, Martha, at that time, never asked who he was working for.  She did that deliberately IMO, because for a while longer at least, she didn't have to hear "KGB."  She was hoping it was anything but that.

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

His spidery senses were tingling, and I understood that.  "I think Martha is bad."  When you work with someone every day, I think, even if you aren't FBI and used to "reading people" as Stan was, especially in his months undercover, you sense if something has changed with them.  People in love are one of the most obvious things to spot, at least for me, heck, I could often tell if an employee was fighting with their spouse.  Martha changed first by that love glow spring in her step, getting great sex vibe that Amador picked up on (Stan had his own issues with Nina then, but Amador did mention Martha to him) and then later the tension after Mr. Taffett showed up.  I completely bought that Stan knew something was off.

And we know that he'd also unconsciously noticed her taking files, since that showed up in his dream. 

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

It was both, and I think the young "handler" fostered some of his anger at his parents as well.  It was a huge mistake.  Her job was to recruit him, and she did that, but in a very shortsighted way.

Yeah, I thought Jared's situation was very much about anger at his parents lying to him. His sister's death, imo, goes right to that. He symbolically destroyed the life and family he'd learned was all a lie. He just latched onto the Cause because it was the life preserver thrown to him when his whole identity was shattered--Kate and her Cause were one in the same.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, Martha, at that time, never asked who he was working for.  She did that deliberately IMO, because for a while longer at least, she didn't have to hear "KGB."  She was hoping it was anything but that.

Yeah, Martha's story is always very carefully plotted in terms of what she knows, what she admits to herself she knows, what she doesn't know and what she doesn't want to know. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 10:58 PM, Umbelina said:

I don't think American visitors were ever allowed to talk to actual Russian people when they toured the USSR.  As a matter of fact they were warned against this, not for their own safety, but because of the possibly severe consequences for any regular citizens they happened to encounter.  I'm so interested in this though, as a Polish citizen, were you allowed to do that? 

Actually, I am a Finnish citizen.  As the Soviet Union was our neigbour country (and Russia still is), many Finns visited at least Leningrad (nowadays again St Petersburg) and Tallinn (Estonia). Although they were mainly travelling with a group, there was also free time to roam the city with the underground or the cab.  

It was quite possible to speak with local people, the problem was rather that few Finns could Russian and ordinary Russians didn't speak English, some older ones spoke German. Fortunately many Estonians had learned Finnish from the Finnish TV (the authorities tried in vain to disturb it and to explain that the ads about full meat disks were sham). Many Finns had Estonian friends and they donated them things that were scarce in Estonia. One of my teachers smuggled inside her bra "The letter of 40" where 40 prominent Estonian culture persons protested against Russification in 1980. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 10:58 PM, Umbelina said:

I've read so much, and I had a Russian friend who told me so much about the desperate situation both the 4-5 years before and after the fall of the USSR.  Still though, more information is always welcome for me.

The so called privatization failed, the people didn't understand the economic laws of Capitalism and were often got often conend. The companies had no abilities to compete in the free marketsa and the pays and pensions weren't paid.  Fortunately, especially older women had used to till their allotments.

In the beginning of the 90ies the difference in living standard between Finland and Russia was greater than between Mexico and the US.  

[Umbelina]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually, I am a Finnish citizen.  As the Soviet Union was our neigbour country (and Russia still is), many Finns visited at least Leningrad (nowadays again St Petersburg) and Tallinn (Estonia). Although they were mainly travelling with a group, there was also free time to roam the city with the underground or the cab.  

It was quite possible to speak with local people, the problem was rather that few Finns could Russian and ordinary Russians didn't speak English, some older ones spoke German. Fortunately many Estonians had learned Finnish from the Finnish TV (the authorities tried in vain to disturb it and to explain that the ads about full meat disks were sham). Many Finns had Estonian friends and they donated them things that were scarce in Estonia. One of my teachers smuggled inside her bra "The letter of 40" where 40 prominent Estonian culture persons protested against Russification in 1980. 

I'm sorry, I don't know why I said Poland, probably because of a book I was reading when I typed that, and too little sleep.

Most of my Russian language class (along with my wonderful teachers former students) went to Russia each year, Lenningrad and Moscow.  I couldn't afford to make the trip, but I was in on a few of the "planning" sessions and heard all the rules.  This was in the seventies.  Anyway, they were warned that speaking to regular Russian people, no matter how tempting, was unlikely.  There were two reasons for this, the first is that Russian people knew not to speak to American groups because that would draw the attention of officials to them (obviously KGB and informants.)  The second reason was that although tours were carefully guided to be kept away from regular citizens, if you did happen to run into one and speak to them you could cause that person's life all kind of trouble and suspicion.  Obviously, everyone they WERE allowed to speak to had already been cleared, or worked for the KGB in some capacity, so to mind your words.

What is a "full meat disks?"

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The so called privatization failed, the people didn't understand the economic laws of Capitalism and were often got often conend. The companies had no abilities to compete in the free marketsa and the pays and pensions weren't paid.  Fortunately, especially older women had used to till their allotments.

In the beginning of the 90ies the difference in living standard between Finland and Russia was greater than between Mexico and the US.  

This is why I speculated that Martha was probably on her own, without her perks and stipend after the fall of the USSR. 

How many regular Russians came to Finland during those times, to stay, or passing through to the west?

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

What is a "full meat disks?"

Sorry, I meant a meat counter. There was a very popular ad in the TV where a cook, standing behind a counter full of meat, recommended "what shall we make today for dinner".  The Soviet authorities tried in vain to teach the Estonians that it was only sham. 

The Russians could believe that they were better because of the Revolution but the Estonians couldn't - many people still remembered how they had lived in an independepent state and were sure that without being incorporated to the Soviet Union in 1940 they would have lived as well as the Finns.    

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

How many regular Russians came to Finland during those times, to stay, or passing through to the west?

I don't know the numbers. Very few could stay, usually because of marriage, whereas today we have a growing Russian-speaking minority.     

Soviet tourists (who must first have a recommendation from their workplace etc) came most as groups although Finns could also make an official invitation to friends, promising to pay all costs. The problem of the Soviet tourists was they were allowed only a little currence and the official currence of ruble rate was highly overvalued.   

[Roseanna]

I just read the interview of a professor of the economic history: He says that when the Soviet Union fell, the Russian society had no working instutions nor moral order, that is no restraits. The result was robbery Capitalism where robber barons, armed gangs and clans took the power.

For a tourist the Soviet Union was mostly safe, but in 1992 I saw how openly mafia men behaved in a restaurant in Murmansk, but luckily our driver protected us. Even in 1999 in Priozersk (before the Finnish town Käkisalmi) we warned not to move around the town alone.  

[Umbelina]

27 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I just read the interview of a professor of the economic history: He says that when the Soviet Union fell, the Russian society had no working instutions nor moral order, that is no restraits. The result was robbery Capitalism where robber barons, armed gangs and clans took the power.

For a tourist the Soviet Union was mostly safe, but in 1992 I saw how openly mafia men behaved in a restaurant in Murmansk, but luckily our driver protected us. Even in 1999 in Priozersk (before the Finnish town Käkisalmi) we warned not to move around the town alone.  

When the Soviet Union fell, my closest Russian friend wasn't as "happy" about it as I was.  When I asked him why, he talked about several things, the mafia (which he knew intimately, and explained in detail,) and the KGB, the other power in Russia, but the most disturbing thing of all, is that he predicted the rises of someone in the KGB, basically a "new Stalin."

He told me, in great and minute detail about the psychological history of the people in Russia, and also that any kind of democracy would ultimately fail there, because there was absolutely no foundation for that culturally.  They had always had a very rich class, and a poor class, from serfdom and the czars to communism/socialism.  He also felt that it would be a very difficult transition from "the state takes care of everything" to the free for all capitalistic model, especially when the only real power and infrastructure left  was either Mafia or KGB.  He said much more, and talked about a need for someone "strong" to take care of them, since most would simply not be able to function in a world they had no experience in, let alone, stake money or powerful connections needed to get started.

He told me they would throw away freedom with both hands if it meant security, even if that 'security' was minimal.

[Erin9]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

When the Soviet Union fell, my closest Russian friend wasn't as "happy" about it as I was.  When I asked him why, he talked about several things, the mafia (which he knew intimately, and explained in detail,) and the KGB, the other power in Russia, but the most disturbing thing of all, is that he predicted the rises of someone in the KGB, basically a "new Stalin."

He told me, in great and minute detail about the psychological history of the people in Russia, and also that any kind of democracy would ultimately fail there, because there was absolutely no foundation for that culturally.  They had always had a very rich class, and a poor class, from serfdom and the czars to communism/socialism.  He also felt that it would be a very difficult transition from "the state takes care of everything" to the free for all capitalistic model, especially when the only real power and infrastructure left  was either Mafia or KGB.  He said much more, and talked about a need for someone "strong" to take care of them, since most would simply not be able to function in a world they had no experience in, let alone, stake money or powerful connections needed to get started.

He told me they would throw away freedom with both hands if it meant security, even if that 'security' was minimal.

Frankly, I think this is the story of many countries. Countries that were able to evolve over time rather than go from one extreme to the other simply tend to fare better.