Lennie Briscoe Was NOT Great: Unpopular Opinions

[MarylandGirl]

On rewatch...I'm not hating Fontana so much. Or Branch. (Still don't like Serena!)

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, MarylandGirl said:

On rewatch...I'm not hating Fontana so much. Or Branch. (Still don't like Serena!)

I just saw a Fontana episode the other day.  I agree.  He's not so bad now.  I think back then, it was just he pales in comparison with Briscoe.

[Maherjunkie]

Quote

On 9/7/2017 at 7:43 PM, WendyCR72 said:

I have to side with those who think I don't give a shit if it's for "good reasons". A good parent would NEVER ALLOW their child to be sexually molested to help another child, dying or not.

And I wanted to smack Serena for defending it.

As this is the UO thread, however, topic: The early seasons were on WE and Sundance recently and, while I respect and get why NBC added some women to the cast in Season 4 (due to complaints, etc.), I think the first 3 seasons, even so old, still held up well. And I didn't care if the main cast was all male.

 

Word! Women fucking ruined the show.  I loved Greevey even though he could be a douche canoe.

[Ailianna]

Lt. Van Buren disagrees with that statement.

[Xeliou66]

On 7/8/2018 at 7:40 PM, MarylandGirl said:

On rewatch...I'm not hating Fontana so much. Or Branch. (Still don't like Serena!)

Fontana was unlikable a lot of the time, he was arrogant and had a lot of fascist tendencies, believing he had unlimited power to do whatever he wanted and could treat civilians like shit, but he was interesting to watch. I’m very glad they didn’t make him Briscoe 2.0, but I’m also glad he didn’t stay on for long, his behavior would’ve gotten tiresome. I strongly disliked how often he would use force agaisnt anyone whom he disliked, very inappropriate behavior, and he was frequently hostile to Van Buren and McCoy as well. 

I disagreed with most of Branch’s political views, but I found him to be a likable character that brought personality o the show and brought a spark back to the DA’s scenes that was missing with Nora. He wasn’t as good as Schiff but I did like him. I don’t care for Serena or Borgia though, Serena was too soft for a DA and Borgia let her religious views get in the way of her job and was very moralizing and preachy at times.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I liked Farina as an actor. I didn’t like his Fontana character and it’s not because he wasn’t Lennie or that I wanted another character just like or similar to Lennie. This show didn’t work that way. Phil wasn’t like Max and Lennie wasn’t like Phil.

By this point in the series, the show was becoming more and more written with broad strokes and nuance and layers were being thrown out the window. I pretty much didn’t care for all the torture/terrorist plots associated with 9/11 or just plain terrorism instead of murder, conspiracy to murder; murder out of corporate greed, revenge, etc. because this wasn’t a show about Feds or spies.

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

I disagreed with most of Branch’s political views, but I found him to be a likable character that brought personality o the show and brought a spark back to the DA’s scenes that was missing with Nora. He wasn’t as good as Schiff but I did like him. I don’t care for Serena or Borgia though, Serena was too soft for a DA and Borgia let her religious views get in the way of her job and was very moralizing and preachy at times.

I liked Branch okay except when he started pontificating about his politics. I loved Schiff, but even to this day, I don’t know what his politics were. And that’s one of the things I loved about him and the writing in the Schiff years. I enjoyed Fred Thompson as an actor im the movies I saw him in-and that said while he did bring back some...energy, Branch will always be Foghorn Leghorn for me.?

[MarylandGirl]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Fontana was unlikable a lot of the time, he was arrogant and had a lot of fascist tendencies, believing he had unlimited power to do whatever he wanted and could treat civilians like shit, but he was interesting to watch. I’m very glad they didn’t make him Briscoe 2.0, but I’m also glad he didn’t stay on for long, his behavior would’ve gotten tiresome. I strongly disliked how often he would use force agaisnt anyone whom he disliked, very inappropriate behavior, and he was frequently hostile to Van Buren and McCoy as well. 

I disagreed with most of Branch’s political views, but I found him to be a likable character that brought personality o the show and brought a spark back to the DA’s scenes that was missing with Nora. He wasn’t as good as Schiff but I did like him. I don’t care for Serena or Borgia though, Serena was too soft for a DA and Borgia let her religious views get in the way of her job and was very moralizing and preachy at times.

Yes, I think that's more what I meant about Fontana, that he's at least interesting to watch. I'm currently catching up on the episodes with Falco, and his character is very zzzzzz.

I'd forgotten how annoying Borgia was. Saw her first episode the other day and was like, "Why did everyone hate her again? She seems OK." Then saw "In God We Trust" and "Locomotion" (train one) and was like, "Oh....right."

[db2202000]

Perhaps unpopular opinion: I dislike Season 5. It's my least favorite of the first 10. I'm a Ben Stone guy, it feels like he should still be there and I am not a fan of the ladies man version of Jack McCoy. Yes, it was subtle with him and Claire for 2 seasons, but it did nothing for me. Logan was getting stale in the junior detective role and it was the right call to go another direction (feelings about the Curtis character notwithstanding). But mostly the episodes were really not that strong in my opinion. Purple Heart's my favorite, but then it's followed by Switch, which I hate. Second Opinion, White Rabbit, Competence, Virtue, Seed, all episodes I don't watch if they are on. 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, db2202000 said:

Perhaps unpopular opinion: I dislike Season 5. It's my least favorite of the first 10. I'm a Ben Stone guy, it feels like he should still be there and I am not a fan of the ladies man version of Jack McCoy. Yes, it was subtle with him and Claire for 2 seasons, but it did nothing for me. Logan was getting stale in the junior detective role and it was the right call to go another direction (feelings about the Curtis character notwithstanding). But mostly the episodes were really not that strong in my opinion. Purple Heart's my favorite, but then it's followed by Switch, which I hate. Second Opinion, White Rabbit, Competence, Virtue, Seed, all episodes I don't watch if they are on. 

I’m not a big fan of season 5 either, a lot of the episodes felt very boring for some reason, there didn’t seem to be as much courtroom stuff in this season, and the stories just seemed rather boring and bland, predictable and uninteresting. I thought McCoy’s intro was fine and I liked him just as much as Stone, but I just thought the stories were a bit weaker this season.

Purple Heart is the best of the season I agree, great vintage L&O with some awesome legal maneuvering, but I agree Switch sucked, nothing happened in the second half at all. I don’t like Second Opinion either, it’s portrayal of alternative cancer treatments was laughably negative and over the top, Seed was incredibly boring and didn’t feel like an L&O case, I usually don’t watch it either. I liked Virtue, I thought the case was unique and interesting, I loved McCoy’s closing argument (the first closing argument we saw from McCoy in the series BTW) and there were some funny lines from Schiff and McCoy. White Rabbit was pretty cool in how Bill Kunstler played himself, only time they ever had a real defense lawyer play himself, some good legal stuff in that one. Competence was a good episode for the always awesome Van Buren. Why did you dislike those episodes?

[db2202000]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not a big fan of season 5 either, a lot of the episodes felt very boring for some reason, there didn’t seem to be as much courtroom stuff in this season, and the stories just seemed rather boring and bland, predictable and uninteresting. I thought McCoy’s intro was fine and I liked him just as much as Stone, but I just thought the stories were a bit weaker this season.

Purple Heart is the best of the season I agree, great vintage L&O with some awesome legal maneuvering, but I agree Switch sucked, nothing happened in the second half at all. I don’t like Second Opinion either, it’s portrayal of alternative cancer treatments was laughably negative and over the top, Seed was incredibly boring and didn’t feel like an L&O case, I usually don’t watch it either. I liked Virtue, I thought the case was unique and interesting, I loved McCoy’s closing argument (the first closing argument we saw from McCoy in the series BTW) and there were some funny lines from Schiff and McCoy. White Rabbit was pretty cool in how Bill Kunstler played himself, only time they ever had a real defense lawyer play himself, some good legal stuff in that one. Competence was a good episode for the always awesome Van Buren. Why did you dislike those episodes?

Competence and Virtue I wouldn't say I actively disliked, I just wasn't interested in the plots. They're not an episode like Damaged where I curse that it was ever brought into existence. White Rabbit I will agree with you that having Kunstler there was interesting (sadly he was dead by the next season) and they had some interesting elements of the plot. I'd say I more actively dislike Privileged and have issues with Act of God (defense lawyer had to be completely incompetent not to create reasonable doubt in the first trial).

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, db2202000 said:

Competence and Virtue I wouldn't say I actively disliked, I just wasn't interested in the plots. They're not an episode like Damaged where I curse that it was ever brought into existence. White Rabbit I will agree with you that having Kunstler there was interesting (sadly he was dead by the next season) and they had some interesting elements of the plot. I'd say I more actively dislike Privileged and have issues with Act of God (defense lawyer had to be completely incompetent not to create reasonable doubt in the first trial).

Privileged was another episode with a very boring and predictable second half, and yeah in Act of God the detectives and DA’s didn’t seem to be properly prepared and any decent defense attorney should’ve gotten Hank Chappel acquitted. Like I say, I did find the plot of Virtue interesting and thought it had some of season 5’s best courtroom stuff, and I liked Competence for Van Buren. 

I don’t care for Damaged either, I disliked the whole plotline about Briscoe’s daughter and Judge Wright enrages me, but it isn’t my least favorite ever. The episode that I curse it’s existence is Aftershock.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Xeliou66

[db2202000]

36 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Privileged was another episode with a very boring and predictable second half, and yeah in Act of God the detectives and DA’s didn’t seem to be properly prepared and any decent defense attorney should’ve gotten Hank Chappel acquitted. Like I say, I did find the plot of Virtue interesting and thought it had some of season 5’s best courtroom stuff, and I liked Competence for Van Buren. 

I don’t care for Damaged either, I disliked the whole plotline about Briscoe’s daughter and Judge Wright enrages me, but it isn’t my least favorite ever. The episode that I curse it’s existence is Aftershock.

Ha, yes, I recall from the other board that you hate Aftershock. I do not like Aftershock either, it was much more effective when they weaved in elements of characters' personal lives into the stories rather than focusing on the characters' lives as the story. Like when Swann mocks Ben Stone's divorce in American Dream and angers him, that was a good way to note Ben's personal life in a way that didn't become the plot itself, but furthered it. 

[wknt3]

On 7/14/2018 at 11:12 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I liked Farina as an actor. I didn’t like his Fontana character and it’s not because he wasn’t Lennie or that I wanted another character just like or similar to Lennie. This show didn’t work that way. Phil wasn’t like Max and Lennie wasn’t like Phil.

I think that they deliberately made Fontana less likeable than Lennie or Phil or Green. In many ways I respect that they stuck with the original concept of the character as rather brusque and abrasive, but a good detective who was respected by his colleagues and that they didn't soften him or tone him down as they did throughout the series with other detectives. I do think that the character gets unfairly blamed for things that are not his fault like not being Lennie or his time on the show coinciding with the decline of the writing and bad ADAs, but he is not particularly likable and I won't argue with anyone who says they don't like him as long as they don't say he ruined the show.

 

Quote

I liked Branch okay except when he started pontificating about his politics. I loved Schiff, but even to this day, I don’t know what his politics were. And that’s one of the things I loved about him and the writing in the Schiff years. I enjoyed Fred Thompson as an actor im the movies I saw him in-and that said while he did bring back some...energy, Branch will always be Foghorn Leghorn for me.?

Repeating myself again, but what he brought back is personality. Which translated into more energy in the DA's office scenes as there was something for the writers to work with other than transcribing legal ethics textbooks. As far as Schiff's politics it was pretty clear he was a liberal Democrat with a background as an old lefty (representing ant-war types and working with Bill Kunstler) who got into politics and became more of a traditional urban machine politician trying to balance the interests of different groups while dealing with the public's demand for tough action during the peak years of NYC's crime rates. His politics as DA were basically a copy of Adam Morgenthau the NYC DA he was based on. I think his political views were clearly defined and consistent, but just very subtly presented, especially since he was above all else a pragmatist.

Edited July 17, 2018 by wknt3

[Maherjunkie]

On 7/10/2018 at 7:27 AM, Ailianna said:

Lt. Van Buren disagrees with that statement.

Let me adjust that statement.  She was good but I preferred Donnie.

[Xeliou66]

I loved both Van Buren and Cragen, both were awesome squad leaders who added a lot to the show, their input was always enjoyable. I don’t prefer one over the other, Van Buren interviewed people more and was more formal, whereas Cragen was more informal and would trade ideas with the detectives more it seemed. I loved both of them.

[db2202000]

Another unpopular opinion perhaps: Worst EADA was ladies' man Jack McCoy in seasons 5 and 6.  

[flyingdi]

My absolute favorite was Mr Always A Cop, Ed Green.

My favorite ADA was Mike Cutter.

I believe they should have shown an episode of Lupo being cross examined by Robinette even though they were not on at the same time.  Just for the sheer voice porn!

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, flyingdi said:

My absolute favorite was Mr Always A Cop, Ed Green.

My favorite ADA was Mike Cutter.

I believe they should have shown an episode of Lupo being cross examined by Robinette even though they were not on at the same time.  Just for the sheer voice porn!

Since Robinette did return as a defense attorney a few times, they could’ve had a scene of him and Lupo together.

I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I never cared for Robinette when he returned as a defense attorney, while it was nice to see him, I didn’t like how much of an angry race baiter he had become.

[andromeda331]

58 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Since Robinette did return as a defense attorney a few times, they could’ve had a scene of him and Lupo together.

I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I never cared for Robinette when he returned as a defense attorney, while it was nice to see him, I didn’t like how much of an angry race baiter he had become.

I didn't either. I hated that he became the same kind of people he had no problem calling out when he was an ADA. He was so great when he was an ADA. It would have been great to see him back and still be the same guy. I don't think its an unpopular opinion a lot of people pretend that wasn't him because he was so different from the first few seasons.

[Chaos Theory]

I got one!  I got one!

i liked Serena Southerlyn but disliked  Abbie Carmichael.   

[Xeliou66]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I didn't either. I hated that he became the same kind of people he had no problem calling out when he was an ADA. He was so great when he was an ADA. It would have been great to see him back and still be the same guy. I don't think its an unpopular opinion a lot of people pretend that wasn't him because he was so different from the first few seasons.

Yeah I think a lot of people were irritated with how Robinette had changed when he returned. He was awesome when he was an ADA, I really didn’t like how he became a massive race baiter when he returned, I wish his personality had remained the same.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I think a lot of people were irritated with how Robinette had changed when he returned. He was awesome when he was an ADA, I really didn’t like how he became a massive race baiter when he returned, I wish his personality had remained the same.

Me too. 

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Me too. 

The show tried to explain his shift when he later re-quoted Ben Stone's old, "Are you a black lawyer or a lawyer who's black?", but it didn't really help. ADA Robinette and defense attorney Robinette are like opposite-spectrum twins or something. And, like most here, I preferred Early Robinette by a country mile.

[topanga]

4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

And, like most here, I preferred Early Robinette by a country mile.

Meme too. Except his hair. I know it was in style at the time, but the flat top, ski slope fade he wore as an ADA did not age well. Watching those episodes now, I cringe.

I rewatched We Like Mike recently, and it reminded me of how much I hate episodes where the DAs force a witness to testify against a suspect despite physical danger to the witness or the fact that their testimony might ruin their life—by exposing criminal activity or an affair, for example. Granted, the criminal activity or affairs were their own damn fault, but the DAs honestly didn’t seem to care how they affected witnesses lives. Jamie did apologize when Mike was arrested at his wedding and falsely jailed for 3 days, but after that, she was as much of a bulldog as McCoy was. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Since Robinette did return as a defense attorney a few times, they could’ve had a scene of him and Lupo together.

I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I never cared for Robinette when he returned as a defense attorney, while it was nice to see him, I didn’t like how much of an angry race baiter he had become.

Not an unpopular opinion! But that wasn't Robinette! No it wasn't! It was POD!Paul!

20 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I didn't either. I hated that he became the same kind of people he had no problem calling out when he was an ADA. He was so great when he was an ADA. It would have been great to see him back and still be the same guy. I don't think its an unpopular opinion a lot of people pretend that wasn't him because he was so different from the first few seasons.

POD!PAUL!

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

The show tried to explain his shift when he later re-quoted Ben Stone's old, "Are you a black lawyer or a lawyer who's black?", but it didn't really help. ADA Robinette and defense attorney Robinette are like opposite-spectrum twins or something. And, like most here, I preferred Early Robinette by a country mile.

And I didn't believe him when he said "all these years I was wrong." BULLSHIT. He dealt with others calling him "Oreo" and being frustrated that he was damned if he did, damned if he didn't. Had to deal with learning heroes he admired or who inspired him to become a lawyer, to help people, were corrupt. He could have gotten a job on Wall Street. But he didn't. They tried to scale back the "Angry Black Man" race baiter from the first two appearances in his final one, but nope. Nope. But that wasn't My Paul. That was his EVUHL TWIN, POD!PAUL.

And on a purely shallow note, does that man NOT age???!! He was most recently on The Flash, as a villain! But he looks the SAME! DAYUM.

[FormerMod-a1]

20 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I got one!  I got one!

i liked Serena Southerlyn but disliked  Abbie Carmichael.   

I liked them both! :-O

38 minutes ago, topanga said:

I rewatched We Like Mike recently, and it reminded me of how much I hate episodes where the DAs force a witness to testify against a suspect despite physical danger to the witness or the fact that their testimony might ruin their life—by exposing criminal activity or an affair, for example. Granted, the criminal activity or affairs were their own damn fault, but the DAs honestly didn’t seem to care how they affected witnesses lives. Jamie did apologize when Mike was arrested at his wedding and falsely jailed for 3 days, but after that, she was as much of a bulldog as McCoy was. 

I had the opposite reaction with I Like Mike.  By the end of the episode I did not like MIke.  He annoyed the hell out of me.  I felt like they expected me to sympathise with him.  Nope.  It's one of the episodes I refuse to watch in syndication.  

[flyingdi]

Did they ever once mention Serena's sexuality before the ep where she was fired?  Which one was killed in a car crash in the death penalty ep?

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, flyingdi said:

Did they ever once mention Serena's sexuality before the ep where she was fired?  Which one was killed in a car crash in the death penalty ep?

I don't think so.  She did always stick up for LGBT rights, but that's about it.  Claire Kincaid?

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't think so.  She did always stick up for LGBT rights, but that's about it.  Claire Kincaid?

Yeah, it was Claire, who was driving a drunk Lennie (who had fallen off the wagon) home.

[Ailianna]

After she went to pick up a drunk Jack and their affair was openly revealed for the first time.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, flyingdi said:

Did they ever once mention Serena's sexuality before the ep where she was fired?  

Nope. That was the first we’d heard of it.

[Xeliou66]

Aftershock was such a terrible episode, I think the fandom is split on it, some of them hate it, others love it. I am on the side that hates it, it was a pure ridiculous soap opera, I don’t care about seeing their personal crap and I didn’t buy that everyone of them would react so drastically to seeing an execution, and worst of all there was no case!! 

On 12/13/2018 at 3:10 PM, flyingdi said:

Did they ever once mention Serena's sexuality before the ep where she was fired?  Which one was killed in a car crash in the death penalty ep?

The only time that they possibly hinted at Serena’s sexuality was in Asterisk, when she went to the magazine that did profiles of gay people, and the editor guy said that ADA’s weren’t high profile enough, thinking Serena was there wanting him to do a profile of her. But yeah the reveal of Serena being a lesbian came way out of left field and felt like it was thrown in for shock value.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Aftershock was such a terrible episode, I think the fandom is split on it, some of them hate it, others love it. I am on the side that hates it, it was a pure ridiculous soap opera, I don’t care about seeing their personal crap and I didn’t buy that everyone of them would react so drastically to seeing an execution, and worst of all there was no case!! 

I'm on the side that hates it too. I don't buy everyone reacting to the execution that way either. They all had been on the job for a pretty long time and seen so much to be effected by an execution. Let alone to that extreme. Law & Order always seemed to make the exit episodes really weird for the most part.  Ben calling quits after the witness is killed by the Russian mob made no sense. Some of his other cases even in that season would have made more sense. It was also really weird how they all kept acting like the witness would be fine if she didn't testify when there's no way the Russian mob would leave a witness alive regardless if she testified or not. Ben's prosecuted the mob before he knows that line of thinking is bullshit. Serena's exit episode where she keeps defending the defendant and at the end says its because everyone she spoke to said he what a great kid he was. That's not proof he didn't kill anyone. Friends and family are ones usually saying how great he or she is and couldn't kill anyone. And asks if she's being fired because she's a lesbian. Even though Branch had just explained why he fired her. She was too busy defending the criminals even though her job is to prosecute them. Witness an execution is enough to fall of the wagon and Claire's killed. Green's weird last episode.

[FormerMod-a1]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm on the side that hates it too. I don't buy everyone reacting to the execution that way either. They all had been on the job for a pretty long time and seen so much to be effected by an execution. Let alone to that extreme.

This was my problem with it, too.  Sure have some of them be affected.  Even have one or two be really affected.  But to have all of them be extremely affected?  Really?  I seriously stopped watching for a while after that, skipped most of the next season.  But me being me, and L&O being L&O I did come back to it, of course. :)

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I'm on the side that hates it too. I don't buy everyone reacting to the execution that way either. They all had been on the job for a pretty long time and seen so much to be effected by an execution. Let alone to that extreme. Law & Order always seemed to make the exit episodes really weird for the most part.  Ben calling quits after the witness is killed by the Russian mob made no sense. Some of his other cases even in that season would have made more sense. It was also really weird how they all kept acting like the witness would be fine if she didn't testify when there's no way the Russian mob would leave a witness alive regardless if she testified or not. Ben's prosecuted the mob before he knows that line of thinking is bullshit. Serena's exit episode where she keeps defending the defendant and at the end says its because everyone she spoke to said he what a great kid he was. That's not proof he didn't kill anyone. Friends and family are ones usually saying how great he or she is and couldn't kill anyone. And asks if she's being fired because she's a lesbian. Even though Branch had just explained why he fired her. She was too busy defending the criminals even though her job is to prosecute them. Witness an execution is enough to fall of the wagon and Claire's killed. Green's weird last episode.

L&O did have some weird exit episodes, although I didn’t find Stone’s exit weird, I totally bought that he would feel guilty over the witness getting killed and would resign, although I think it might’ve been a better exit for Stone if he decided to resign after the events of Sanctuary, where he strongly disagreed with Schiff’s position about not retrying the case at the end. But overall I thought Stone’s exit was fine and I Ioved the final scene between him and Schiff.

Serena’s exit was the weirdest because of the lesbian reveal, that was way out of left field, if they had just left it with Branch firing her because she was too soft I would’ve bought it, Serena was too soft and was sympathetic to the defense far too often.

I didn’t like Green’s exit, they could’ve done so much better with him rather than have him come under suspicion for murder.

Logan’s exit was fitting in that his temper got him fired, but it was very hasty, Logan punching the councilman happened at the very end and all we got afterwards was the brief final scene between McCoy and Kincaid where they discuss what will happen to Logan. No scenes of Logan after the punch and no reaction from Briscoe or Van Buren. I am glad they brought Logan back on CI so we could see him regain his position as a detective and how he had changed after his demotion. I hated the god awful Exiled movie though.

But the worst exit in the L&O franchise is definitely Barba’s exit on SVU where he pulled the plug on a baby, completely bizarre and out of left field.

[wknt3]

It's interesting in the recent discussions of Serena's infamous exit and Claire Kincaid that nobody seems to be making what has always appeared to me as the obvious connection. I've always thought that they were attempting to repeat what they had done before as far as having a big reveal about a character's personal life that shined a new light on past stories and showed that even if the show resolutely avoided delving too deeply into their lives away from work it didn't mean they didn't fully develop them. Unfortunately it didn't work because Claire Kincaid was a compelling character and Jill Hennessy was a brilliant actor while Southerlyn was a dull disappointment and Rohm a pretty chunk of wood who never managed to convey through subtle choices in her performances that Serena's advocacy of LBGT rights was anything more than just checking off the left-wing boxes.

[Xeliou66]

What was the big reveal about Kincaid’s personal life? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Aftershock, but I can’t remember any big reveal. 

I don’t see any similarities between Kincaid’s exit and Serena’s. The lesbian reveal with Serena came way out of left field and had nothing to do with the episode, like I said before, Branch firing Serena for being too soft made a lot of sense, while Kincaid’s exit was just poorly done all the way around.

[WendyCR72]

I didn't think much of "Aftershock", myself. That said, from an actor's POV, I could see why maybe they liked mixing things up, a bit. While I find the show interesting, not a lot of character development was usually mined from the usual format, minus a few lines here and there.

So I could easily believe Waterston, Orbach, and the rest liked the brief change, allowing themselves to flesh out their characters and show them as real, fallible people and not just cop or lawyer.

Just playing Devil's Advocate.

I don't think Claire should have been killed, but it was a memorable exit. It just is sad she could not ever return unless as a soapy twin. Which would be very ironic since Jill Hennessy does have an identical twin sister.

[wknt3]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

What was the big reveal about Kincaid’s personal life? It’s been a long time since I’ve seen Aftershock, but I can’t remember any big reveal. 

I don’t see any similarities between Kincaid’s exit and Serena’s. The lesbian reveal with Serena came way out of left field and had nothing to do with the episode, like I said before, Branch firing Serena for being too soft made a lot of sense, while Kincaid’s exit was just poorly done all the way around.

The reveal was that Kincaid and McCoy were romantically involved. So the comparison wasn't to the exits, but to making subtext text.

Edited December 16, 2018 by wknt3

[Xeliou66]

19 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

The reveal was that Kincaid and McCoy were romantically involved. So the comparison wasn't to the ecits, but to making subtext text.

How exactly did they reveal it? I didn’t think it was revealed until it was referenced in later episodes after Kincaid’s death. 

[Maherjunkie]

He called her my angel.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Maherjunkie said:

He called her my angel.

Who said this? McCoy about Kincaid? I don’t remember that at all, are you sure that happened?

[Ailianna]

Kincaid's conversation with Van Buren was clearly about her boyfriend.  McCoy talking to the blue collar guy was about his girlfriend and whether he should wait for her.  And then even to Lenny.  "Hell to her too!"  Then when the "girlfriend" showed, up, it was Kincaid looking for McCoy, and she ended up giving a ride to Lenny since Jack had left already.  Apparently there were people who had suspicions they were involved when watching real time (I wasn't a watcher in real time, and wasn't online then either), but they made it pretty explicit during the episode.  (I don't recall an "angel" comment though, and I've seen it several times.)

[wknt3]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

How exactly did they reveal it? I didn’t think it was revealed until it was referenced in later episodes after Kincaid’s death. 

 

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

Kincaid's conversation with Van Buren was clearly about her boyfriend.  McCoy talking to the blue collar guy was about his girlfriend and whether he should wait for her.  And then even to Lenny.  "Hell to her too!"  Then when the "girlfriend" showed, up, it was Kincaid looking for McCoy, and she ended up giving a ride to Lenny since Jack had left already.  Apparently there were people who had suspicions they were involved when watching real time (I wasn't a watcher in real time, and wasn't online then either), but they made it pretty explicit during the episode.  (I don't recall an "angel" comment though, and I've seen it several times.)

I think this is a pretty good summary although it wasn't stated explicitly until McCoy was questioned by Ken Starr with the serial number filed off in one of the HLOTS crossovers. Again it's not a 1:1 correlation as one was handled with subtlety and only stated outright much later while the other was just dropped on viewers like an anvil, but I'm sure it was an attempt to duplicate past success as was happening more and more during this period.

[Picture It. Sicily]

'Aftershock' might have worked if they had changed a few things. For example...

One, don't make it the execution of a perp we never saw before. Make the execution the culmination of a case we saw play out in an earlier episode. That way the audience is invested.

Two, don't make the every single character SO RATTLED about being witnesses. It's implausible that that many members of law enforcement would be THAT upset. Seriously, one contemplates quitting law, one cheats on his wife and TWO men fall off the wagon? Is it their first month on the job??

Three, don't make the perp such an evil scumbag. Sorry, anti death penalty advocates wouldn't even shed a tear over a man who raped and murdered a woman in broad daylight over a fender bender and showed not one ounce of remorse.

Four, make it a less open and shut case. Create a scenario where the characters wrestle with how they did their jobs. Are we sure we got the right guy? Did we play fast and loose to get the confession? Did we convict the right guy? The way it's laid out, the inner turmoil make no sense.

Even changing one or two of these things would have improved it immensely.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Picture It. Sicily said:

'Aftershock' might have worked if they had changed a few things. For example...

One, don't make it the execution of a perp we never saw before. Make the execution the culmination of a case we saw play out in an earlier episode. That way the audience is invested.

Two, don't make the every single character SO RATTLED about being witnesses. It's implausible that that many members of law enforcement would be THAT upset. Seriously, one contemplates quitting law, one cheats on his wife and TWO men fall off the wagon? Is it their first month on the job??

Three, don't make the perp such an evil scumbag. Sorry, anti death penalty advocates wouldn't even shed a tear over a man who raped and murdered a woman in broad daylight over a fender bender and showed not one ounce of remorse.

Four, make it a less open and shut case. Create a scenario where the characters wrestle with how they did their jobs. Are we sure we got the right guy? Did we play fast and loose to get the confession? Did we convict the right guy? The way it's laid out, the inner turmoil make no sense.

Even changing one or two of these things would have improved it immensely.

Yes, that would have made the episode better or at least make more sense. Why should we care about a prep we've never seen before and who committed a horrible crime over something so minor and has zero remorse. It makes no sense that every character is so rattled. None of them are new to the job and have seen a lot of horrible crimes that would mess them up worse then executing a man who was clearly guilty of his crime. I can't see Lennie giving a crap or thinking that was justice. Another scumbag off the streets. McCoy too. Claire I could see having a problems she wasn't for the death penalty and had an issue with it being applied in an earlier episode to the man who shot an undercover cop (although I'm a little unclear why in that one too. The man profited off the money laundering and admitted worrying about losing the lifestyle. That's not exactly sympathetic). I don't see Curtis either. If anything he wouldn't shut up about how immoral the execution while being a smug sanctimonious ass.

Edited December 17, 2018 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

Agreed with all of this. It made no sense that they would all be so affected by the execution of an evil scumbag, the only one I could see being affected by it is Kincaid since she was strongly against capital punishment, I can’t see Briscoe, McCoy or Curtis being affected by it very much. 

L&O was great because it was all about the cases, it was all about watching interesting characters do detective work and legal maneuvering. There was very little personal stuff and the show was never a soap opera. Aftershock was a pure soap opera with no case, I don’t think it would’ve been good regardless, but they could’ve improved it somewhat if they had changed the details of the case, or not had all of the characters react so drastically.

[Maherjunkie]

On 12/15/2018 at 10:50 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Who said this? McCoy about Kincaid? I don’t remember that at all, are you sure that happened?

From what I remember when he was drinking or playing pool, but don't take to the bank.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Maherjunkie said:

From what I remember when he was drinking or playing pool, but don't take to the bank.

He was trash talking her when he was at the bar. Because it looked like she decided not to show up. He never called Claire “My Angel.” 

[Maherjunkie]

Now I'm gonna have to rewatch, I could swear I heard it.