Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Trini]

Podcast interview with Patrick Sabongui: https://www.yvrscreenscene.com/home/2019/4/18/episode-six-patrick-sabongui

Quote

Patrick Sabongui is an actor, producer, teacher, and relentless advocate for diversity in the entertainment industry. Patrick’s screen credits include plum roles on Homeland, The Art of More, Beyond, Godzilla, and The Flash, where he’s played Captain Singh, the first openly gay character in the DC Universe, since season one. In 2018, Patrick was nominated for a Leo Award for his work in Drone, in which he played a Pakistani father whose family is killed in a hellfire missile attack. Patrick’s experiences navigating discrimination in the film and television industry were the inspiration for Kyra Zagorsky’s award-winning short film, The Prince. In this poignant episode, Patrick talks with Sabrina Furminger about growing up Egyptian Canadian, #stuntlife, and MENA representation in the film and television industry. 

[I haven't listened to the whole thing yet.]

[Trini]

23 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think in the comics, Barry didn't tell Iris that he was the flash until their wedding night, so it might be more of a comics thing.

The secret identity thing is a comic trope, but it didn't make sense in the context of this show, especially by the middle of Season 1.

[phoenics]

46 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think in the comics, Barry didn't tell Iris that he was the flash until their wedding night, so it might be more of a comics thing.

I'd agree with you - except in the comics, Barry didn't tell anyone else either.  On the show, Barry told EVERYONE except Iris.

The comics didn't have the concept of a "Team Flash" or "Team Superman" or a "Team Wonder Woman".   The only one with teams was Batman - but he was clearly in more of a Master-Apprentice mode, not a "Team Batman where Batman can't function unless Team Batman tells him what to do" mode.

I don't think that aspect of the comics is relevant here, given how these shows reveal the hero's identity in every other episode, lol.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Sounds farfetched to me. And the team thing was there to replicate the success of Arrow's formula. (And you can see how they did it again with Supergirl, who is even less likely to need a team.) Every show has it's supporting characters, but I think Berlanti & co. just like teams.

I do agree with you that the show needs to break out of the 'Team STAR Labs' formula; and show more of Barry/Joe as police officers and Iris as an investigative reporter. They have done some of that this season, with separating characters into different subplots, although CCPD is still underused.

I feel like maybe you skimmed the parts where I addressed this in my post? 

I addressed everything you just said and WHY AJK did it.  I acknowledged that he was replicating Team Arrow, but I believe he HOPED the Team Arrow formula on The Flash would have the same effect as it did on Arrow - push the leading lady out and install his own.

AJK was besties with DP.  She didn't even audition for the role.  She was pushed in spinoff stuff BEFORE they even cast Iris West.  Why wasn't she positioned as lead from the beginning?  Because - as I posted - DC Comics was not going to let some character like that from jump be the lead - especially since they were the ones who were making sure the character stayed racebent.

I'm not saying AJK only did TF to push CP out.  I'm saying he hoped it would be a side/fringe benefit of centering Star Labs/Team Flash.

I'm saying structurally, it still does that on the show and basically accomplishes the same goal - to push CP further out UNLESS she's brought in as leader of Team Flash.

I'm saying that structure needs to die so the show can grow.  AJK and one of his (racist) reasons for pushing that structure are - should be - gone, so the structure can go too.

I'm likening the Star Labs/TF structure to institutions of oppression (I'm not saying they are oppression, just comparing the structure to institutions).  The will to maintain them and push them as law might have faded, but the institutions are still there - so the oppression continues because that's what the institutions were originally created to perpetuate.  

About Supergirl:  SG revolves as much around her place of work (where all of the other major players are) as much as the DEA or whatever the name of the group that does the secret stuff is called.  The point is that when they brought on her love interests, they centered them in one of those two places.  With Iris on TF, they shoved Iris off to the side and didn't give her a place of her own until CCPN - and then they got rid of that too.  You're actually making my point for me.

Far fetched?  Not really.  I think I've laid my thesis out pretty well.

Edited April 19, 2019 by phoenics

[Trini]

11 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I addressed everything you just said and WHY AJK did it.  I acknowledged that he was replicating Team Arrow, but I believe he HOPED the Team Arrow formula on The Flash would have the same effect as it did on Arrow - push the leading lady out and install his own.

We might have to agree to disagree, because it doesn't make sense that the producers (because Kreisberg was not the only decision maker here) would want the same mistake to happen with The Flash. Having to replace the lead/love interest of a show is not a desired outcome.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

decision to use the "Star Labs as the center of the universe" was a strategy to minimize CP's status as Lead Actress for the show and elevate DP as the "Leading Lady in Star Labs".  DP even said as much in an interview. 

"I love being the only girl in Star Labs."

I love this entire analysis because it is spot-on and brilliant. 

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

Reporter/cop is the easiest thing in the world to write. 

See how completely Sherloque Wells has been integrated into the storylines this season? As an investigator, he encroaches into Iris's role (and Joe's, and Ralph's) yet somehow the writers have given him a solid plotline, relevance to the main storyline and significant relationships with most of the leads. 

The show goes out of its way to minimise Iris's relevance. It is strategic. The cross-over episode had Clark and Lois and Kara doing a circle high-fiving over how awesome reporters were. What I found most intriguing was how much they hyped up Lois Lane Iris could have fit into that dynamic seamlessly but apparently, it was a White Reporters Only event. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I addressed everything you just said and WHY AJK did it.  I acknowledged that he was replicating Team Arrow, but I believe he HOPED the Team Arrow formula on The Flash would have the same effect as it did on Arrow - push the leading lady out and install his own.

Bingo. There are so many tropes for that: Romantic False Lead, Disposable Fiancé, False Soulmate ...

Edited April 19, 2019 by ursula

[adora721]

36 minutes ago, ursula said:

Bingo. There are so many tropes for that: Romantic False Lead, Disposable Fiancé, False Soulmate ...

This is like reading the playbook for every, single Hallmark TV movie, ever! Thanks for the info.

Edited April 19, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

41 minutes ago, ursula said:

apparently, it was a White Reporters Only event. 

Was Jimmy busy being dead again?

[phoenics]

23 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Was Jimmy busy being dead again?

What?!?!  They killed off Jimmy?!?!

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

"I love being the only girl in Star Labs."

I love this entire analysis because it is spot-on and brilliant. 

See how completely Sherloque Wells has been integrated into the storylines this season? As an investigator, he encroaches into Iris's role (and Joe's, and Ralph's) yet somehow the writers have given him a solid plotline, relevance to the main storyline and significant relationships with most of the leads. 

The show goes out of its way to minimise Iris's relevance. It is strategic. The cross-over episode had Clark and Lois and Kara doing a circle high-fiving over how awesome reporters were. What I found most intriguing was how much they hyped up Lois Lane Iris could have fit into that dynamic seamlessly but apparently, it was a White Reporters Only event. 

Thank you - not only for explaining how the show goes out of its way to minimise Iris' importance but the RECEIPTS proving DP has been angling for this from jump - that line of hers was literally the spark that inspired my whole post.  The leap is that AJK was in it with her - but given how he continually positioned her with nearly the same screentime as Iris and in many cases more - I don't think it's a huge leap.

But I love it when folks come through with receipts.

I'd have to bury my head in the sand not to see how far this show goes to erase Iris.  Even when it's logical to include her, they don't.  I don't know how much influence AJK's reign still has over the writer's room and crew, but it seems maybe he wasn't alone in keeping Iris in a box.

At this point it could just be inertia - they've been keeping her separate for all this time so why try to do better?  But that's my point about Star Labs.  The structure of it reinforces Iris' marginalization.  They may not be intentionally trying to minimize Iris - but by clutching and grasping at "Star Labs must be centered at all costs!" - which was the instrument of her marginalization - all they do is further perpetuate her marginalization.

I halfway think that the reason Sherloque got Iris' characterization was because he's based in Star Labs and that's where everything is.  But I know that's not it - it's because they've prioritized writing for him.

They don't prioritize writing for Iris.

Edited April 19, 2019 by phoenics

[adora721]

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

In tonight's ep, Nora asks the same horribly stupid question Barry asked "How fast do I need to go to run up the side of a building?" - when she's smart enough to know that for herself, given her education and advanced future knowledge.  The only reason it was there was to reinforce the TF dynamic that has crippled Barry Allen's growth on this show for the last 2 seasons.

Didn't you just love his 100%, scientifically precise, PhD, Nobel Laureate answer: "As fast as you can!" 

Edited April 20, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

What?!?!  They killed off Jimmy?!?!

Nope, but 

Spoiler

I was referring to EarthX James who died quickly in the "Crisis on EarthX" crossover. Recently they shot James and he almost died.

Edited April 20, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

RECEIPTS

Someone made a video of some evidence. Take note of AJK and DP gleefully talking about how happy the SBs would be about episode 1x19 (near the 7 minute mark) in which Everyman kisses Caitlin while wearing Barry's face.

Edited April 20, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I'd have to bury my head in the sand not to see how far this show goes to erase Iris.  Even when it's logical to include her, they don't.  I don't know how much influence AJK's reign still has over the writer's room and crew, but it seems maybe he wasn't alone in keeping Iris in a box.

The fact that they exclude her from the majority of the crossovers, even when it makes logical sense to have the leading lady of the Flash in them, is proof enough of malicious intent.  I'm not certain about whether the malice is conscious or unconscious at this point? Do they not see for themselves how bad this looks to constantly exclude the female lead of their number 1 show? With AJK, it was conscious.

[phoenics]

13 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The fact that they exclude her from the majority of the crossovers, even when it makes logical sense to have the leading lady of the Flash in them, is proof enough of malicious intent.  I'm not certain about whether the malice is conscious or unconscious at this point? Do they not see for themselves how bad this looks to constantly exclude the female lead of their number 1 show? With AJK, it was conscious.

It's probably unconscious but people used to a certain status quo can easily be convinced that "something new" isn't working and revert back to the status quo.

That and MG and GB also have the same racist/sexist tendencies as AJK clearly had.

Edited April 20, 2019 by phoenics

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, phoenics said:

From the Godspeed episode thread:

It's an escalation of a pattern with characters yelling at Iris and her chronically never being allowed to assert herself back.  It happened last season with Harry, Ralph AND Caitlin and there was no defense of Iris - not even from herself.  Now Barry?  That one is REALLY problematic - because that's not a coworker. That's her husband.

Hear me:  I'm not saying that folks can't yell at Iris.  What I'm saying is that this show has a HORRIBLE pattern of characters doing that to her, with Iris just sitting there and taking it.  It's a VERY common racial trope - because writers worry that if they let the black woman stand up for herself, the racists will throw the ABW stereotype at her.  It's part of making the black woman look "nice" to overcome the audience's pre-perception that black women are angry.  CP even spoke about this in an interview - so I think she realizes that yes - it is about race.  Black women catch it 1000 worse than white women characters on this issue and often it leads to them being silenced like this and yelling behavior at them normalized.

Because Barry has never raised his voice to Iris before - this illustrates a general degradation of how everyone on this show screams at Iris and disrespects her, and she's 1) never allowed to defend herself and 2) at least in the past, Barry wasn't one of them yelling at her, with her never being able to defend herself.  It's part of a pattern of black women characters being expected to simply sit and take it and never defend themselves or assert boundaries.  It's part of the erasure of a black woman's agency for this to repeatedly happen and for toxic behavior toward that black woman to be normalized.  

From that to the smug bitch looks Caitlin and Danielle exchanged when Nora shaded Iris to Iris being dragged by Spyn (doesn't matter if the other character doing it is also a black woman) - and Iris wasn't allowed to defend herself - its' part of a pattern.

I get it - none of you people think this is bad.  That's fine.  But I see the pattern and  I'm just SO sick and tired of black women characters put into this no-win situation - say something - even calmly - and get your head bitten off.  Assert boundaries and you're bashed by fandom for being an angry black woman.

ETA:  I don't know if you're a black woman or not, but I would say that EVERY black woman I know has felt the unyielding pressure of moments where someone gets angry at us for whatever reason (justified or unjustified) and we feel forced to not respond in kind, defend ourselves or assert boundaries because we're afraid that we will get labeled as the ABW.  This happened to me in a work setting more than once and even though I was the one who remained calm and never raised my voice - the person doing it to me (incidentally a white woman who probably thinks of herself as a feminist) somehow turned it around on me to my VP where I was the instigator.  The ONLY thing that saved me was that she didn't realize my lab tech was within earshot and heard the whole thing.  Before that - I was literally under the bus and screwed.  And that's not the first time I've faced that - so much so that in my current role, I have worked so hard to not react that my coworkers sometimes ask me to defend myself more.  LOL.  It's just a no-win situation and I hate seeing it happen to Iris.  

Representation matters - but if you are going to just repeat harmful tropes that REAL people experience on the daily and reinforce those tropes in your writing - then your "representation" is harmful.  There are ACTUAL studies showing the harmful effects this kind of repression has on black women.  This stuff has real world effects.

So finally - Barry yelling at Iris by itself isn't necessarily problematic racially - it's still bad - but it's not problematic racially.  Taken as a whole with how Iris is treated AND how she's not given a voice to defend herself or assert boundaries - THAT is the racially problematic part.

We're going to have to agree to disagree because even your example of Cecille and Caitlin exchanging looks back in that baseball episode, we are not seeing that same.  I did not see smug smiles exchanged, I saw nervous uncomfortable smiles and nothing bad toward Iris at all from either of them. 

In general, I don't know any woman that's not a boss that is allowed to yell at work.  Sucking it up and taking it has been in my experience the norm, fair or not.  

[Starry]

Barry did snap at Caitlin on a couple occasions but I don't recall him ever yelling or swatting her hands away. What I do remember is Caitlin getting angry at Barry in 1x02 and it being dangled as SB bait with Cisco commenting that he's never seen her this angry since Ronnie.

On the flip side, I find it interesting that Barry didn't have an issue when it comes to using physical violence against Killer Frost in season 3. There was one episode where he threw her across the room to save Cisco and Julian and another one where he tried to set her on fire. This wouldn't be a big deal, she's a villain after all and he has to do something to protect himself and his friends, but they made it a point to show that both Cisco and Julian didn't have it in them to attack her because they still saw their Caitlin buried underneath the frosty appearance. There was never any hesitation on Barry's end. I don't know if this helps counteract the argument that Barry gives Caitlin special treatment but it is something to consider. There are moments when I actually think he just doesn't care enough about Caitlin to get angry OR to restrain himself during a fight with Frost.

About Caitlin and Cecile at the baseball game, they weren't exactly pleased but they weren't uncomfortable either. Not at all. They gave each others "LOL, this is shade" smiles. It's the kind of reaction two friends have when their mutual friend shades their other mutual friend. Except Nora is not Iris' friend, she's her daughter. And she wasn't just being jokingly shady, she had been avoidant at best and rude at worst towards her mother since she first got there. Caitlin also made a similar facial expression in the Thanksgiving episode after Nora once again snapped back at Iris.

As for STAR Labs being too central, I think part of it is laziness on the writers' part. STAR Labs is what they are familar with so they revert back to familiar the first chance they get. They do attempt to break away from the formula at the start of every season* but it's hard to produce twenty-two episodes per year so here we go, back to STAR Labs around the time of the midseason finale. This show is the worst Arrowverse one in this regard and I do think a case could be made that it's a race-related issue since the characters less connected to STAR Labs, like Iris, Joe and Cecile all happen to be black.

*They didn't even try in season 4. They immediately made Iris the team leader and thrusted newbie Ralph into the team in his first episode.

What bothers me about this is that STAR Labs and its characters are not narratively useful in the sense that are needed ( at Barry's expense ) when it comes to the action sequences but they are not emotionally connected to Barry enough to drive plots. They are also extremely replaceable. The revolving doors of Wellses is proof of that. Do they need this many geniuses and metas to tell Barry Allen's story? I don't think so. And I am using the structure of the show to make my argument, not the comics. Maybe the showrunners have enough issues with Barry's black family that they are willing to throw Barry under the bus and downplay his smarts and Flash abilities so that he would need his white team mates at STAR Labs as much as he does his black family. This may seem a bit out there but since I have seen fans hating Barry because he cares more about Iris and Joe and now Nora than his STAR Labs friends... Some don't even bother to hide that that is what irritates them about Barry's behavior.

6 hours ago, phoenics said:

That's the very definition of racially problematic - nevermind poor Iris never being allowed to stand up for herself.

Iris has unloaded on Barry during their therapy session, has snapped at Caitlin in the season 4 premiere and has been paying for her audacity ever since. The same way she paid in season 2 for getting mad at Barry&Joe for keeping her in the dark and for being jealous of Linda. The writers repeated similar story beats in season 2 ( Joe keeps Iris in the dark, Barry gets another love interest ) but completely changed Iris' reactions by making her extremely understanding and supportive.

13 hours ago, ursula said:

Bingo. There are so many tropes for that: Romantic False Lead, Disposable Fiancé, False Soulmate ...

In season 1 I feared they were going to pull an Arrow and discard the childhood love for the quirky scientist on the team. WestAllen was completely different from Lauriver but those are tropes for a reason...

Speaking of Arrow, yestarday I watched the Lost Canary episode. Without spoiling anything, the writers focused on the women and pushed Oliver and Felicity in different plotlines. Despite all that, they opened and ended the episode with scenes of Oliver and Felicity in their home. When was the last time we saw Barry and Iris at home??

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

When was the last time we saw Barry and Iris at home??

When was the last time we saw Barry and Iris ALONE together?  It's been some episodes back.

[Starry]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

When was the last time we saw Barry and Iris ALONE together?  It's been some episodes back.

I think they had a quick scene in the beginning of 5x13 and another one in the beginning of 5x16. Stop. Two scenes in six episodes. A tragedy.

It's very sad because certain audience members are using their lack of scenes to push the agenda that they have no chemistry, that they feel unmarried so they should break up, etc. I think the writers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have them married to introduce key elements like Nora but at the same time they don't want to show them married in order to not offend certain individuals.

I hope the next EP does better. Maybe if Flash weren't the highest rated show the writers would feel more bold, show more Iris/WA and shake up the formula.

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

I hope the next EP does better. Maybe if Flash weren't the highest rated show the writers would feel more bold, show more Iris/WA and shake up the formula.

The fact that it's still the highest rated show is amazing to me.  Especially this season - but I guess all the shows are just dying off.  Imagine what this show could have been on Netflix though.  I can't even say the DC app - because those shows are run by Berlanti & Co and I think the problem is systemic to all of them.

[BeautifulFlower]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

The fact that it's still the highest rated show is amazing to me.  Especially this season - but I guess all the shows are just dying off.  Imagine what this show could have been on Netflix though.  I can't even say the DC app - because those shows are run by Berlanti & Co and I think the problem is systemic to all of them.

I don't watch them, but the Titans and Doom Patrol are about a team. They should be written like a team based show.

Flash, Arrow, and Supergirl are about suppose to be about the title hero. However, for some reason, they making them an ensemble show about a team.

[adora721]

On 4/20/2019 at 5:15 AM, Starry said:

Barry did snap at Caitlin on a couple occasions but I don't recall him ever yelling or swatting her hands away. What I do remember is Caitlin getting angry at Barry in 1x02 and it being dangled as SB bait with Cisco commenting that he's never seen her this angry since Ronnie.

On the flip side, I find it interesting that Barry didn't have an issue when it comes to using physical violence against Killer Frost in season 3. There was one episode where he threw her across the room to save Cisco and Julian and another one where he tried to set her on fire. This wouldn't be a big deal, she's a villain after all and he has to do something to protect himself and his friends, but they made it a point to show that both Cisco and Julian didn't have it in them to attack her because they still saw their Caitlin buried underneath the frosty appearance. There was never any hesitation on Barry's end. I don't know if this helps counteract the argument that Barry gives Caitlin special treatment but it is something to consider

The nearest I recall Barry coming to a minor snap back at Caitlin was when she was being overprotective in S1 and he said, "Caitlin, I'm not Ronnie. You gotta stop treating me like I am."  He was under the influence of Rainbow Rider and was angry at everyone. I can't count this as a legitimate example since Barry wasn't in his right mind.

However, even under Rainbow Rider's influence, Barry didn't yell Caitlin, see for yourself. But he sure yelled at Joe and Iris (and Eddie, too).

I don't count his defensive acts against a physical attack from Killer Frost as showing he doesn't give Cait special treatment. Like you mentioned, he has to defend himself or his friends from an attack from KF. 

On 4/20/2019 at 5:15 AM, Starry said:

As for STAR Labs being too central, I think part of it is laziness on the writers' part. STAR Labs is what they are familar with so they revert back to familiar the first chance they get. They do attempt to break away from the formula at the start of every season* but it's hard to produce twenty-two episodes per year so here we go, back to STAR Labs around the time of the midseason finale. This show is the worst Arrowverse one in this regard and I do think a case could be made that it's a race-related issue since the characters less connected to STAR Labs, like Iris, Joe and Cecile all happen to be black.

In S2, they had a great opportunity to reduce the central status of STAR Labs when they had Cisco consulting at CCPD and they established the CCPD Metahuman Task Force. They should have rolled STAR Labs personnel into that task force by the end of S2 or the start of S3, especially once they established a metahuman wing of Iron Heights prison. They could have set them up right in Barry's lab with all the STAR Labs computers linked to the STAR Labs satellites.

Put Cait and Cisco in Barry's lab.  Recall that they had Julian in Barry's lab heading the metahuman wing of the CSI Division in S3.  Joe and Barry already work there. Cecile would be there since she already has an office at CCPD as the DA.  They'd already established since S1 that Iris visits the precinct often, so her being there wouldn't be unusual, and she could get info. for her articles. Perhaps Joe and Barry vouching for Ralph would have allowed Ralph to get his police job back or at least work as a consulting detective with CCPD in S4. 

STAR Labs would then just be a place to store technology that Cisco builds, the occasional talk with Gideon, when the team really needs to keep something private from the CCPD, and as storage for Barry's suits, which he can quickly run to get when needed. Now, he has the Flash ring, so that wouldn't even be necessary.

ETA: Even future daughter Nora fit in at CCPD as Barry's intern CSI.

Come to think of it, the only person who doesn't fit at CCPD is Wells. The team would have to explain why there's a version of the man they knew as Harrison Wells, murderer, alive; they'd also have to explain other Earths. So, perhaps STAR Labs is kept by the producers to allow one person, Tom Cavanaugh, to have a purpose and a job.

Edited April 21, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

21 hours ago, Starry said:

I hope the next EP does better. Maybe if Flash weren't the highest rated show the writers would feel more bold, show more Iris/WA and shake up the formula.

I actually think being the highest-rated show should give them the confidence to be more bold with Iris and WestAllen. Plus DC has seen the evidence in dollars in the success of "Black Panther", Jason Mamoa's "Aquaman" (which includes the interracial coupling of Mera and Arthur), and "Scandal" to name a few recent hits featuring Black women, a POC lead, and IR couplings. So, there's no excuse to say that they (POCs, IR couplings) don't sell in the marketplace. Plus there are more commercials than ever featuring IR couples, which suggests advertisers recognize the sea change happening in the marketplace. 

In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but, right now DC, is doing slightly better in showing IR couples and POCs as leads or co-leads than Marvel right now. It's only recently in 2018,  with "Into the Spider verse" (an animated film) and "Black Panther" that Marvel has really put POCs at the forefront of their offerings. DC put Candice Patton as the female lead in 2014, and it was so successful, they're keeping Iris Black in the DCEU, and have made her Black for the recent comic story.

There's no legitimate excuse to not treat Iris or WestAllen as well as they would a White character or a White couple on their network. 

[Starry]

On 4/21/2019 at 8:42 PM, adora721 said:

I don't count his defensive acts against a physical attack from Killer Frost as showing he doesn't give Cait special treatment. Like you mentioned, he has to defend himself or his friends from an attack from KF.

I only mentioned it to point out the difference in behavior between him and Cisco. Even when resorting to physical attacks, Cisco is all "I don't want to do this", "I am sorry" which is not something you see with Barry.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

This is my personal favorite: Link 4

While Barry doesn't hold Caitlin accountable for anything, he's also careless and his carelessness is highlighted even more when another character a part of the same storyline is shown to be more concerned and hesitant. I agree that Caitlin is given special treatment in general. The show even retconned Nora's animosity towards her.

On 4/21/2019 at 9:03 PM, adora721 said:

I actually think being the highest-rated show should give them the confidence to be more bold with Iris and WestAllen. [...] There's no legitimate excuse to not treat Iris or WestAllen as well as they would a White character or a White couple on their network. 

Don't get me wrong. There's no good excuse to not treat Iris and WestAllen fairly. The problem is that the show is giving me enough reasons to believe that they are trying to play both sides. Also, keep in mind that there's very little diversity in the writers room and that the higher-ups are white men. That isn't the case with shows like Scandal.

Regardless of the shows success, it is possible that their unconscious ( ? ) bias is leading them to believe that the moment they do more with Iris/WestAllen, they'd lose audience members. The "problem" with Iris is that not only she's the female lead, not only she's loved by Barry, she's also a character that is expected to be white and that she's loved by a white male protagonist who could easily get a white woman ( big difference with shows/movies like Black Lightning and Black Panther ). I believe that some of the hatred/shade thrown at Iris stems from that, from the fact that she's usurping a role that should have gone to a white woman. Even the fact that Nora has been getting all this story and screen time plays into the belief that they are playing both sides. They get diversity points for giving all this screen time to a WOC character but since Nora is biracial and doesn't have a romantic/sexual relationship with the white male lead she's more "palatable" than Iris to racist audience members.

I mean, the network is not exactly known for treating POC fairly. Like @phoenics mentioned, the problem is systemic to the DC app shows as well. I have watched one season of Titans and while it is marketed as a team show, there's an abysmal difference in writing between the two white characters and the two POC characters. Even the Marvel Netflix shows suffer from problematic writing ( Misty Knight and Iron Fist ).

You mentioned the Flash movie and while the fact that they race bent Iris gives me some hope, there's no guarantee they'll treat her fairly. It also wasn't lost on me that they cast a biracial actress.

I would be interested in seeing which demographic Flash appeals the most to. Is/was the grand majority of their viewers composed from white men/people? Because that would possibly play a part in how they write Iris and WestAllen. They have a black female lead and a main interracial couple but they are writing them with possibly racist/antiblack/biased white viewers in mind.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

Regardless of the shows success, it is possible that their unconscious ( ? ) bias is leading them to believe that the moment they do more with Iris/WestAllen, they'd lose audience members. The "problem" with Iris is that not only she's the female lead, not only she's loved by Barry, she's also a character that is expected to be white and that she's loved by a white male protagonist who could easily get a white woman ( big difference with shows/movies like Black Lightning and Black Panther ). I believe that some of the hatred/shade thrown at Iris stems from that, from the fact that she's usurping a role that should have gone to a white woman. Even the fact that Nora has been getting all this story and screen time plays into the belief that they are playing both sides. They get diversity points for giving all this screen time to a WOC character but since Nora is biracial and doesn't have a romantic/sexual relationship with the white male lead she's more "palatable" than Iris to racist audience members. 

I agree that there's bias going on the writers' room; but I disagree that it's because of racist viewers.

[adora721]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

While Barry doesn't hold Caitlin accountable for anything, he's also careless and his carelessness is highlighted even more when another character a part of the same storyline is shown to be more concerned and hesitant. I agree that Caitlin is given special treatment in general. The show even retconned Nora's animosity towards her.

On 4/21/2019 at 12:03 PM, adora721 said:

In a very real sense, Barry represents all White men or White culture, especially because he's the lead. His special treatment of and lack of accountability to the only White woman member of the team telegraphs to all White people that all is still right with their world.

Her special treatment is a way to placate those who are upset that the so-called "natural" order of things has been usurped because the White woman didn't get the White male lead and Barry is married to a WOC. With Barry's continued special treatment of her, whiteness as personified in Caitlin Snow (talk about having the perfect last name) is shown as:

• Still good: "You're a good person, Caitlin."
• Still protected and clean: "It's my fault; my fear caused all this."
• Still valued no matter how many wrongs have been committed: "I failed her... I'm gonna find you and help you." 

Even Amunet gets in on the action with, "You, Caitlin Snow are, and have always been remarkable." 

If Barry and others had said these things about Caitlin before S3, I'd agree with those words, but Caitlin hasn't been that remarkable, good person since her actions in S3 onwards. The writers tried to put the genie back in the bottle without actually redeeming her.  I used to like her character, but no more, never again. I can't forgive someone who's not actually repentant and doesn't take responsibility.

Edited April 23, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

Seeing Rag Doll again (and me looking at Troy James' social media) made me think that if there were (more?) people behind the scenes that cared about authenticity (and had the skills and commitment to produce that) we would have a Rag Doll with a hair texture that actually looked like it grew out of head of a Black man. It would be nearly the exact same hairstyle, but just actual locs.

It's a relatively minor thing; but it's another "Grandma Esther's noodles" situation where you can tell there's a lack of Black persons (and/or Black persons in power) behind the cameras, even though there are several in front of them.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Trini

[adora721]

Just found this vid, "The Importance of Black Women on Popular TV Shows"

[adora721]

On 5/14/2019 at 6:10 AM, Starry said:

Tell that to the SB fans who complain all the time about Barry not having scenes with Caitlin. In all seriousness, there have been normal scenes between Iris and Caitlin if we are considering the series as a whole.

The writers never gave me any indication that they were into any female friendship. I think sexism explains why they never cared for a Iris/Caitlin friendship more than any BTS issues between the actresses ever could. These are the same writers that constantly prioritize father/son bonds over father/daughter bonds and daughter/father bonds over daughter/mother bonds. Racism could also explain why in the few friendship scenes they've had, Caitlin is usually on the receiving end of the friendship act. I doubt this has much to do with AJK since the writing was one-sided in the second half of season 4 as well. AJK had no control over the script when they had

• Caitlin yell at Iris in 4x21 and never apologize for it.
• Iris discuss Killer Frost with Caitlin.
• Iris reassure Caitlin that they were going to bring back KF only for Cait to coldly and rudely dismiss her.

Caitlin not being held accountable is also something that goes beyond her relationship, or lack thereof with Iris.

I doubt Candice is losing any sleep over Snowest but I don't believe she asked Todd to minimize their scenes. Maybe the lack of chemistry between the actresses didn't inspire the writers to give them more but I remain of the opinion that BTS drama isn't the primary cause for the lack of a Iris/Caitlin friendship. As I said above, they have a horrible track record with positive female relationships in general.

I find this whole argument interesting because while you and others are theorizing over Snowest, I am freaking out about the writers possibly adding insult to injury and forcing a surprise pregnancy on Iris after they had sidelined WestAllen for the entire season 🙄 This season has been such a disappointment, I don't want to rant about that too.

SB fans find any reason to complain since it ruins their fantasy romance. I can't take them seriously.

Let's agree to disagree about what we consider "normal scenes between Caitlin and Iris" for the series. In S2, both women could have bonded over losing the men they loved on the same day in the same tragedy, but they never spoke to each other about their mutual loss.  And it's a loss Caitlin spoke to Felicity about in the S5 crossover, so it's still a fresh wound for her. In S5, Caitlin found out her supposedly dead parent, Thomas, was really alive; Iris could have related because the same thing happened to her in S2 with her mother, Francine. However, the two women never talked to each about that common ground. Missed opportunities left and right. And at least the writers tried to establish something between Iris and Felicity until covert racism trumped that and they allowed Felicity to take over the WA engagement party and wedding.

And we do see them writing a healthy relationship between Iris and Cecile since at least S3 onwards; I wonder why??? (sarcasm). In S1, they had a decent relationship shown between Cait and Felicity; I wonder why? The S5 crossover showed women, all White, interacting normally - Cait/KF, Alex, Lois, Kara, and Kate. Hmm....

As for Caitlin's continued bad behavior towards Iris after 4.5 and AJK's firing, I believe each season is outlined before the season begins, so I doubt Todd threw away major plans or story elements created by AJK once AJK was fired. That may account for the continuity of the one-sided SnowWest relationship past 4.5.

However, we can see that S5 brought a drastic lack of the SnoWest relationship since AJK no longer had power over the story or CP. It's also certain that Todd shared some of AJK's beliefs like the demonization of mothers, at least Black mothers since Nora Allen is on a pedestal, and the favoring of fathers. Of course, Joe favors Barry over his own son, Wally as evidenced by Joe giving Barry his father's watch instead of giving it to Wally. You'd think Joe would want to make Wally feel included and bonded to his heritage, but the showrunners prioritized Joe loving White Barry (not his biological son) over Black Wally (Joe's biological son).

Based on S5, we can also say that Todd isn't comfortable with romance in the way that AJK was ( I can't believe I'm giving that guy a compliment).  Todd was also a part of all the seasons, so he may also have issues with covert racism and sexism shared by AJK, too. However, I highly doubt that, if Iris was White, that there wouldn't be a strong female bond between her and Cait. Often people don't realize they have racist issues until they are confronted by it. I also think that CP and EBR get along in real life, so they are written as good friends (minus the wedding issue). CP and DP don't get along in real life, hence the weirdness of the SnoWest relationship. We can agree to disagree about the why; I look forward to the tell-all book years from now.

I agree with you that CP isn't losing sleep over SnoWest; in fact, I think she relishes not having to deal with DP above a minimum.  I also agree that covert racism is the reason Caitlin is never held accountable for her evil deeds. That has nothing to do w/CP and DP's strained relationship.

As for Iris being pregnant: I say we all go on Twitter asking the writers and Todd to explain the immaculate conception.🤣

Edited May 19, 2019 by adora721
removed unnecessary spoiler tag

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't imagine The Flash giving Sue the ending of her story in comics. It seems too dark for this show.  

Not unless she was black. I'm sorry, but I had to say it.

They always say this show is for kids and can't show certain things. Yet, they kept showing Iris get repeatedly stabbed. This current season we saw the doctor get stabbed. Just in the finale, the warden was brutally killed by Eobard.

Also Cisco being killed by Eobard. I just don't get this show when it comes to things they consider not for kids. 

[Trini]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:21 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

I just don't get this show when it comes to things they consider not for kids. 

It's not just this show. With American TV in general, violence is a 'lesser' evil.

And since that Sue Dibny story is considered problematic now, I don't think they would replicate that story on this show. Plus, they never do straight adaptations anyway.

But speaking of Sue, I think this is an opportunity for them to cast another minority actress.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Trini