Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[tofutan]

Sorry, I had to fix my sentence, I got stuck in the middle of "They do want to keep her status at all costs" or "They don't want to touch her status". I don't think that the existence of something like Spallen means that they had any intention of actually switching. It's not unheard of that even the meant to be couples get larger stories with "detractors" (Lana with Lex springs to mind [I would cite Oliver's various other romances too, but all of Oliver's lovelife writing is a pretty big mess). I never got that vibe from the show that again the *status* was under a serious threat, both from the show itself or from the various remarks by the writers. 

I think the problem is that the writers see Westallen as like this perfect little thing, encased in protective glass that they want to put on the shelf and gaze at occasionally. Not so much an actual, living breathing relationship and very active part of the action part of the show (kinda reminds me of Smallville again and how it often felt like Clark loved and idealized the idea of Lana as a person, particularly in the beginning. Not that I think that Barry is supposed to be like that with Iris as a character. But basically, sometimes men are like that, and Flash has male writers, that they want Iris and Westallen to be this thing, this concept, but in a more abstract way; and there is a danger that if the writers think of something as a sure/fixed thing anyway, they are tempted to "play" with other storylines, in their mind still with every intention of going back to the other thing. They want the other thing, but they want to delay when they have to do it). 

I don't think that white love interests are safe from that kind of approach, but maybe the writers are better at playing deaf to the pleas of the fans who complain about the lack of POV here than they would be if the character was white because it fits better into the poor/infantilized white girl stereotype. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by tofutan

[Katsullivan]

2 hours ago, tofutan said:

I think the problem is that the writers see Westallen as like this perfect little thing, encased in protective glass that they want to put on the shelf and gaze at occasionally.

That pattern of putting black women in "protective glass", which serves to "protect" them from passionate relationships and sexual portrayals is just one expression of misogynoir. The desexualization of Black women started from the Mammy trope and it still influences their portrayal, even when they're in established relationships.  A recent and very classic example is the Vampire Diaries and their portrayal of Bonnie Bennett - the writers were happy to depict her being violently attacked and verbally and emotionally traumatized by friends and enemies alike, but deemed too "good, and strong and pure" to be in the same kind of passionate, dysfunctional relationships that every other white woman (bar none - I  mean even the "Mommies" of this show got game; Bonnie's eventual "true love" (who they killed off for Real) was first in love with an MILF) was allowed to. 

How much of this is conscious malice or subconscious bias is debatable. I know of at least one Flash writer that hates Iris/Candice and ships Snowbarry (she favorited a tweet by a Snowbarry fan that likened her to a monkey). Then you read of guest writers who have their Westallen scenes "toned" down or outright erased, by the core writers and the room for debate diminishes... 

[tofutan]

I think the writers definitely did mistreat Bonnie and really dragged their feet where she was concerned. But it didn't go to the extent of total lack of sensuality. She did get sensual/state of undress romantic scenes with both Jeremy and Enzo, it just happened that those were not the people her fans wanted to see her with/they didn't have the same high status as the core male characters of the show (Stefan, Damon and Klaus) had. 

As for dysfunctional storylines, it was my understanding that the show at least played with the idea of doing Bonnie/Kai and that it was disrupted because the actor was instead cast on a different show. That it might have been different if his other show hadn't been picked up for a season order. 

I do think that the level of sensuality affects couples other than Westallen too, but of course it's possible since the show happened to have Westallen as their core pairing that in a way they set the baseline for the remaining amount of sensuality on the show (and that that baseline is affected by her being black). And like I said, I do think/get the impression that Westallen as a concept is untouchable to the writers. Admittedly, that might be mostly my comic fan-ness talking. But I do think that the writers respect that enough and comic Iris/Flash to me always seemed to be universally liked by fans. Maybe not necessarily in an active way, but more as a general, everybody agrees they are cool/nice in the background (compared to let's say Superman/Lois or Spiderman/Mary Jane, couples that imo are more active, have more passionate fans, but also more passionate detractors).

I think somebody put it quite well in the shipper topic, that Flash is such a boys club in a lot of ways and that a lot of Barry's male platonic relationships are written with a lot of care and effort, almost like romances. (which again, might be influenced by Westallen being the core topic and that causing the writers to think of Flash as that kind of show in a way they maybe wouldn't have if Iris was white). 

Edited May 7, 2017 by tofutan

[johntfs]

17 hours ago, doram said:

I'm 105% convinced that if Spallen had been a degree better than the colossal flop that it was, that relationship would have stayed canon, and they'd have the comics to back it up.

Honestly I think the only reason they had Patty on the show was to provide conclusive proof to the viewers that Barry Allen was not, in fact, a virgin.  If the viewers had liked her/the situation better, the show might have kept Patty around a little longer, likely so that Zoom could murder her for extra drama.

As far as the "passion" stuff, here's a couple of GiFs from Wednesday's Arrow.

I've never seen any of the characters on The Flash do anything even close to that.  It's possible that due to actor preference or some other thing, The Flash just doesn't do stuff like that.

[ruby24]

I agree, I always thought that was Patty's purpose as well. I would have bet money Barry was a virgin before her, to be honest. Sure seemed like it to me, the way they acted like he'd never dated or had a real girlfriend before in the first season. I think they didn't want people to think Iris was his first everything (which isn't a big deal in itself, I think that would have been sweet).

But I do think Barry and Iris at least deserve a passionate love scene, being the show's main couple and all. Aside from the fact that they're always fully clothed when they kiss, the camera seems to pan away the second their lips touch most of the time. I mean, come on.

Edited May 7, 2017 by ruby24

[tofutan]

I don't understand why they didn't make Barry a virgin either. Just because Iris presumably wasn't one? If Barry/Iris had been Barry's first time they would have had a concrete reason to actually show it. (personally I think Smallville overdid it in coming up with pretty silly excuses of how Clark and Lana had been saving themselves for each other even though it took them several seasons to finally have sex and they had multiple other partners in the meantime, including times when Clark was under Red K influence for longer periods of time => it always seemed like a huge stretch to buy that even in those circumstances he always held back because of his crush on Lana; but the writers really wanted it that way)

But other than that, like I said, I don't think that it makes sense to compare Arrow to Flash in that sense. Arrow is just a different show. It has always been more sexual. Whether in main pairings or in secondary pairings. It's also a lot darker on the violence front. Arrow isn't just more sexual than Flash, it's also more sexual than Legends or Supergirl. The whole point of it is that it is more grimdark and edgy. 

As you said yourself, no couple on Flash has ever acted that way. As has no couple on Legends or Supergirl, regardless of whether a person involved was a POC. Yet on Arrow, multiple couples have had more suggestive scenes, like Oliver Sara 

or Oliver Laurel

 IMO it makes more sense to see Arrow as the odd one out rather than the thing to compare onself too. It's just a different aesthetic they are following and the amount of sex and shirtlessness and murdering people and torture is part of that aesthetic. 

Does Flash have to be quite as wholesome as it is? No. But I think it was always bound to be at least more wholesome than Arrow.

I still think that Smallville struck a sensible balance between being somewhat wholesome but also delivering the sex scenes if it was at an essential storyline junction. (plus the occasional naughty scene when Clark is on red kryptonite and you get a "bad" sex scene)

For comparison, how Smallville did it for their core couples: 

Edited May 7, 2017 by tofutan

[ruby24]

Yeah, the way Smallville did it was perfectly reasonable. After waiting so long to see Lois and Clark get together for example, when they did they definitely gave the audience the goods. And I remember the same for all the other couples too, it never felt like they purposely shied away from or watered down any sexual relationships. 

Plenty of kissing, plenty of sex. And that show was fairly wholesome in general. I just don't get why The Flash has to be SO dry in terms of sex/intimacy.

[tofutan]

I will say that I think structurally Smallville felt very different. Probably because Clark took quite a long time to officially do superheroing, with like the support system and such. So to me relationships in general had a higher importance in Smallville because in a lot of ways, it was more like a soap opera with superhero elements. While Flash and Supergirl to me are superhero shows with relationship elements. (and Gotham and Arrow are wanna be grimdark noir shows) (and Legends is just pure crack) 

[johntfs]

Just to toss this in there, the only Black male I know that allowed himself be referred to as Kid anything was this guy.

Edited May 7, 2017 by johntfs

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Tobey Macguire's Smallville;

I think you mean Spider-Man

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Steve Rogers/Wonder Woman

Steve Trevor, not Rogers.

 

But yeah, Smallville was very much a superhero show from DAY ONE.

[tofutan]

Smallville wasn't a soap opera because it had some love stories. It's a soap opera because it had episodes like "Just as Lana is about to marry Lex she sets a trap which finally reveals to her that Clark has powers. She wants to ditch the wedding with Lex, except then Lionel forces her to get married to Lex, to save Clark's life". If that is not soap opera 101 I don't know what is. Especially in the way it was shot and presented. 

Smallville was at least as much about "will he get the girl" and not just "will he be a hero". That's how the stories played out. That's how the screentime was divided. It was Dawson's Creek with some superhero elements and they embraced that. The balance between comic book style stuff and relationships was in a different place than it is on Flash or Supergirl or Legends or Arrow. 

For example, there's a decent amount of comic book fans that watch the current batch of DCTV shows. And it is noticeable that a decent chunk of them start complaining when they think that the show starts having "too much romance". They did that about Olicity in season 4, they did that about both Kara and Alex's storylines in Supergirl season 2. Nobody in their sane mind would ever have done that about Smallville because Smallville came right out with it that that was a core element of the show. If you hated relationships, then Smallville was not the show for you. Just like nobody would have watched Lois and Clark if all you cared about were superhero fights. 

The relationships on Smallville were a larger part of the core plot of the show, especially when the show was still in the Lana era. Hence they were given more room, whether it came to screentime/episode importance or how much work they put into romantic scenes. 

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 (see Tobey Macguire's Smallville; the first Iron Man movie; Batman, etc) 

Those things are easier to do in a movie. On a show there's a reason why hero+all knowing tech support system has established itself for more procedural action-y type shows (it is done by all 4 currently running DCTV shows). It's what makes it easier for them to do crazy comic book style villains and plots. 

To me traditional has less to do with team versus alone structure but again, what amount of attention is given to the superhero fighting versus other stuff. That's why for example the netflix Daredevil show is still a traditional superhero show, but so is Supergirl. 

It's not that comic books can never have stuff like "omg, the love interest is dating the big bad, what will our hero do?", it's more about what the ratio is of that vis a vis the amount of time dedicated to punching things or doing comic book tech babble or moralistic speeches. 

On Smallville, Jor-El popped up every once in a while, to cause trouble in Clark's life. Yes the Luthors were a big threat, but they also were threats in the form of things like "OMG, Lex is putting the moves on Lana!" and "OMG, Lex's father is putting the moves on Clark's mother!". They still had to act out certain soap opera type things in order to make sense of the soap opera parts of the show. 

(for the record, I think Smallville became more comic book-y once Lois joined the show, they moved the show to a more urban environment and introduced Green Arrow; that's also when they began to more seriously mine comic book lore for plots, but it's roots were Dawson's Creek-ish and they retained some elements of that even as the show become more traditional comic book-y) 

Edited May 7, 2017 by tofutan

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, doram said:

@GHScorpiosRule, speak for yourself: I personally think that Captain America and Wonder Woman would have been an awesomely color coordinated kickass couple. ?

Uh-uh. I'm a TOTAL DCAU ??Bats and Diana??shipper! Thanks to Bruce Timm!?

As for today's superhero shows? The tech support needed for shows is a 21st Century thing, as far as I'm concerned. George Reeves's Superman, Lois and Clark's Superman, Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman, Adam West's Batman didn't need or use any supporting tech teams for the heroes to do their superheroing.

My memory is fuzzy about the 90s Flash with John Wesley Shipp playing  Barry/Flash having a team of tech support to do his superheroing, but I don't think he did, aside from Amanda Pays' character?

It annoys me that Kara has to "work for" the DEO to do most of her Superheroing, instead of being the free agent, if you will, to do her job.?

But that's just me.

[tofutan]

That bothers me too about Supergirl, that most superheroes are sort of rugged free agents who pursue their superheroing outside of the control of the government (even Legends of Tomorrow SPOILER cut the ties to the Time Masters after a season and technically before that already) and the one female superhero is a government employee who must stand down and fly through hoops if the higher ups say so. I still hope that they will eventually write it as Kara having a falling out with the government and decide she needs to do her own thing, just like Clark does. I think that would be a very interesting challenge for her and make her more independent. 

But that's off topic. Anyway, I see a lot of structural similarities between Supergirl and Flash. I also think that Supergirl is written in a way that Kara/Alex is the platonic OTP as far as the writers are concerned and they also put more weight into Kara's relationships with various supporting characters like Cat or Astra.

Contrary to popular opinion I actually don't think that that is seriously under threat by Mon-El. To me Mon-El is a character with a very clear plot purpose and even if they go for making him Valor, a character with a time limit, who might be around for 2-3 seasons, but not longer, hence, the main OTP, Kara/Alex is not seriously under threat. I lean towards Supergirl being very similarly wholesome to Flash, but it is hard to judge because Supergirl has had only two seasons. Maybe they might eventually do actual love scenes further down the line but so far the only thing they have had like that the characters in question also never took their clothes off and then by the next episode one of them is alone in bed and the other one is already fully dressed. And everything after that has been pretty wholesome. 

Though I guess Supergirl has this thing where sometimes side characters are put in more suggestive scenes than the main storyline characters, like Winn/Lyra in season 2. Or the various "somebody barges in on side characters making out in the copy room" scenes, but I wouldn't really call those love scenes (btw, I have a huge hate on for when shows do that thing where the villains have more sexual scenes than the goodguys, with the whole sex=evil implication of it, Smallville suffered from that occasionally, where good guys have wholesome sex and bad guys have dirty sexy sex)

Again, presuming there is a similar structure/aesthetic/level of of sensuality in place for both Flash and Supergirl, it's always interesting to wonder if that is a chicken or the egg thing. That maybe they went for interracial love stories because they had already decided the show was gonna be tame and wholesome anyway. 

[tofutan]

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Spider-Man was as much about Peter's romance with Mary Jane as it was about being a hero

In the comic books? Or just in the movies? The movies add love stories because they want to get a 4-quarter audience, young and old, male and female. That doesn't mean that it's the same balance between action and romance in the comics. I think you can find plenty of comic book issues where any panels dedicated to romance are relatively minor compared to the panels dedicated to action. 

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But I don't get the reasoning in this because movies do crazy comic book style villains and plots,

Movies are not tv shows or comic book series. You have 1 movie, but you have 22 episodes. Just because a thing is in the movie doesn't mean that it would be in all of the 22 episodes. Or in all issues of a comic (or be in there or more than just for a bookend). 

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too so why is it easier for the hero to be more independent in a movie, but not in a TV show? About the only reason I can think of is to make an ensemble show that doesn't ride on a single actor.

That's definitely one aspect. And you need character for tech babble. And characters on the other end of the earpiece to explain to the audience what is going on/to have something for the main character to talk to. It allows them to have more characters with different personalities to exchange quipps with. Especially since live action tv action scenes are expensive for a tv show. They don't have as much freedom to do big action compared to cartoons or comic books. In a comic book a scene where the main character punches out a 5o foot tall monster is just as expensive as a scene where two characters talk. On a tv show the latter is indefinitely cheaper. 

A movie generally has only a single plot (and the budget to pay for the big action scenes), so only one thing where they have to justify why the hero gets drawn into it. On a tv show you need a new plot every episode (I personally thought it was pretty painfully cheesy how Clark just kept "stumbling" into meteor freaks every episode in the earlier seasons without actively searching for them).  

I'm also guessing one factor is that it maybe gives the audience more people to identify themselves with. That maybe a lot of nerdy fans can relate more to the human sidekick supporting characters than they can with the main hero characters. Not to mention it allows them to do male/female, ie if the main character is female, have a male tech nerd (like Winn), if the main character is male, have a female tech nerd (like Chloe or Felicity). So in a way it's probably almost a favor to Westallen that Cisco is treated as closest to the typical nerd character, respectively it's not that unusual for a pattern that fans gravitate towards the "other sex person in the support system" ships. Again a pattern that had clearly in Smallville where Lana was the adored love interest who was still the outsider, while Chloe was the more helpful in the know one. And then of course that was repeated with Laurel/Felicity. 

So in a way at least Iris found out within acceptable time parameters compared to poor Lana. I found that always an interesting aspect of James in season 1 that they didn't bother with the whole clueless about her identity thing. I still think that Winn still came off as the more helpful one and even though James was part of the smaller CatCo team back then, he always came off more as a guide to me, rather than the typical helpful supporting character. Of course, I think that archetype is generally fueled by the helpful person pining after the hero. Something that didn't work with Kara/James since Kara was pining for him, again, making him more like the Laurel/Iris, the person who is unavailable because they are in a relationship in season 1.  

I think tv shows really love doing "pining" storylines. Because it makes for easy dramatic scenes. But the problem is that it usually makes the person being pined over an object and even if it doesn't (ie, Ollie was still clearly the main subject of his tv show), people still tend to relate more to the person pining than with the person being pined over. But non-pining, actually in a relationship stories are hard to write (and mutual pining is hard to do without the characters looking stupid), so many tv shows go back to that. 

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As for Kara, I head-wank that that's why she's Super-Junior. Superman gets to fly solo, and be a free agent while she needs a support system. 

Which is pretty insulting if you think about it. I know people love it how much Alex came to Kara's rescue in season 1, because yay girlpower, but I still firmly think that this is something Kara should ultimately grow out of. And that it's a healthy thing that in season 2 we had more of Kara supporting Alex. 

 

BTW that's one reason why I think Legends of Tomorrow is the most interesting DC TV show because it doesn't follow the blueprint of the other shows at all. There is no main hero with a central romance and hence there isn't this same feeling of a strict hierarchy (though they still have the support system in the form of the all knowing AI, but other than that, various characters act as info dumpers, but still go out in the field) To bad that nobody is watching it. Because it is noteworthy that Flash to my knowledge is still the highest rated among the currently running DCTV shows, correct? 

Edited May 7, 2017 by tofutan

[johntfs]

Legends of Tomorrow is especially great once you realize that Sara Lance is basically Captain James T. Kirk as a time-traveling lesbian(yes, technically she's supposed to be bi-sexual but she hasn't shown any romantic/sexual interest in any guy aside from Oliver).

As far the lack of passion goes, one thing to consider is that the filming of love scenes is kind gross in practice as opposed to what's seen on the screen.  You're less than clothed, surrounded by dozens of people and bright lights, hoping your boob pasties don't fall off or you don't get a woody at the wrong time.  And if you don't get it perfectly right you have to do it all over again.  And again.  And again.

So, it could that the actors themselves have declined to go for a full on "grope and slobber" sex scene.  Add that to the over all tone of the show and I understand how the romantic relationships on the show are a little more tame in the sexuality department that some people might want.

I don't know, that just makes more sense to me than the writers and showrunners getting in a room, pulling on their secret white hoods and chanting:

"Never, NEVER shall we show a Negress in sexual congress with a member of our sacred White race!  So say we all?"

"SEIG HEIL!"

Edited May 7, 2017 by johntfs

[tofutan]

I think on Flash the behavior is consistent enough across various couples that I think it's pretty clear that it's probably an artistic tone choice rather than actors saying no. Normally I would say maybe it's an effort to be child friendly but I always find that kind ridiculous when I consider how much violence/murder/pretty screwed up subject matters these shows deal with. 

I think what makes Legends interesting is that romance plots (outside from various 1-episode stints, which again were spread around, Sara had the nurse, Jax had that girl from the 50s, Nate had that girl from historical Japan) almost seem to be more the thing of side characters. 

Sara is the lead, but Kendra was in a way the romantic lead of season 1 who had all the men falling for her (Carter, Jax, Savage, Ray) and competing over here. As somebody who actually likes that and finds that interesting, I'm actually very glad that they didn't go for an actual full on schmalzy Sara/Captain Cold story. 

I think this structure gives them more freedom to do romantic plots, but then also end them again. Rather than: THIS IS THE OTP YOU MAY NEVER ABANDON IT. Sure the downside is that the build up on this stories are often rushed. But for example with Nate and Amaya it seemed pretty obvious that the hooking up part never really interested the writers, for them what was dramatically interesting was how they would deal with the moral conundrum of Vixen's future grandchildren. Is Nate the daddy and will he give up the Legends to be with her? Will he eventually let her go so she can fulfill her destiny? Will she disrupt the timeline out of affection for the Legends? [similarly, I think Kendra/Ray in season 1 was supposed to be mostly about how Ray deals with the fact that she has this whole destiny baggage with all these people who want something from her because they knew her in a different life and the worry about whether she will repeat that cycle/whether it is possible to break that cycle]

By playing a lot more fast and loose with couples they can explore that, then write the couple or the characters out again and start a completely new romance with a completely different core conundrum. Rather than "this is the one couple, we have to come up with new obstacles over and over again for the same 2 characters".  And by having those romances take place in the supporting cast rather than with the main character, I think this also gives them more freedom, because it sidesteps all the arguments about "this is the MAIN love interest". Romances can play out when they have material and then end and be replaced. I bet for the writers that is like super liberating, but fans just really enjoy latching on to certain ships (or they latch on to one character they like and obsess over that character getting their perfect person). 

Now Flash was never gonna be like that, because despite it being probably less known, Flash/Iris is just a fixed thing in the comics, like Lois and Superman and Mary Jane and Spiderman. 

==> Speaking of the Hawks. I find it interesting that I've always only seen that story done with Hawkgirl as the one who is not interested and Hawkman as the pursuer. It was like that in DCCW, it was like that in the Justice League cartoon (where she dates John Stewart) and in the JSA comics (where she dated Sanderson Hawkins/Sand). 

Edited May 7, 2017 by tofutan

[johntfs]

15 minutes ago, tofutan said:

Flash/Iris is just a fixed thing in the comics, like Lois and Superman and Mary Jane and Spiderman. 

One thing for me is that I never got into the Flash comics, Supergirl I got into was Peter David's run on Supergirl, which was a completely different animal than the usual Superman's cousin thing.  I consider that to be a good thing because it means the various plots/villains are fresh to me and I won't have the reaction of "But! But! That's not how it was in the comic!!!!"  Which quite a few assholes use to be racist fucks toward Candice Patton as Iris.

Edited May 7, 2017 by johntfs

[tofutan]

I dunno, I always got the impression that the whole message of the racebending that the comics and comic shows did (I think it started with Smallville but maybe others can think of an earlier example) was that the character is what matters, not the ethnicity/hair color. Lana is still Lana even when she's not a redhead. Iris is still Iris even though she has brown skin. Iris/Flash is a fixture, but ethnicity doesn't matter. It asks the viewer: what do you really care about? What color her skin is or that she's his high school sweetheart? What color her hair is or that she's a big damn hero? Does it matter who she is, or is the message what he feels about her? 

[johntfs]

One thing I'd like to see happen (and I know that even now it won't be for quite a while) is a re-telling of the Superman story with Kal-el as a Black man.  I don't know, just the idea of Clark Kent as a Black kid growing up in Kansas and dealing with racism when he has the power to swat any racist he sees like bugs would be interesting to me.  Wonder Woman is already an ambassador from an exotic culture and Batman, well, Bruce Wayne is a billionaire.  Once you get into the "enough money to buy your own country" level of wealth, then forget race as an issue, a person like that practically belongs to a different, higher species as far as the rest of humanity is concerned.  But Superman as Black would lead to a whole lot of interesting places for a story to go.

[tofutan]

I don't know, I think Superman to me is kind of tied to having an idyllic childhood. To explain why he is so nice and friendly. So I think a Superman with a crappy childhood would always be a very different story. 

I'm kinda sad that Supergirl didn't go and expand on this idea more, that there are aliens who can pass for humans (like Kara and Clark) and aliens who are recognizably alien. I was also hoping that they would eventually tackle this fundamental difference between Clark and Kara, both are immigrant stories, but Clark is somebody who never knew his "home culture" and grew up with humans pretty much 100% of his conscious life. While Kara actually remembers Krypton and Kryptonian culture and hence is more torn between the old culture and the new culture. While Clark just has no personal emotional access to that culture, while for Kara the question of heritage is more interesting. 

But it's always up for debate whether it makes sense to do stories like that as metaphors (ie alien rights issues standing in for immigration/muslim rights issues) or to just do them literally. (as an interesting contrast to Legends who do more literal versions of social issues, but by in a time travel context, like in that episode where they go to the 1950s and the one where they go to the civil war, but it hard to judge because it's usually a one off and they go back and forth on whether they try to do stuff like that or just want to have only a good time; of course Legends is kinda caged in that they can't do anything that messes with the timeline too much)

As for Wonder Woman, I'm still waiting for WW or Supergirl to do that story where somebody actually realizes, wait, they aren't Christians, they come from a polytheist background/Kara believes in an alien god. 

[johntfs]

32 minutes ago, tofutan said:

As for Wonder Woman, I'm still waiting for WW or Supergirl to do that story where somebody actually realizes, wait, they aren't Christians, they come from a polytheist background/Kara believes in an alien god. 

I think you're gonna have a long, long wait still.

[phoenics]

13 hours ago, tofutan said:

I don't know, I think Superman to me is kind of tied to having an idyllic childhood. To explain why he is so nice and friendly. So I think a Superman with a crappy childhood would always be a very different story. 

 

I'm not sure you realize this, but you've just implied that all black children grow up with a crappy childhood because of racism and would be incapable of growing up to be nice and friendly.  

I'm black.  I experienced racism as a child.  I did NOT have a crappy childhood and grew up to be very nice and friendly.

I think having a black Superman would be incredible for EXACTLY this reason.  He had to deal with racism growing up  - as well as the crap all kids deal with growing up - and still managed to come out a a hero for everyone - even the racists.  And even as they probably would still hate him.

Imagine if the Man of Steel was black and lived in our time.  Right now.  With everything going on.

Man this would make a really good story.

Just last night I was thinking about a flash fanfic idea where Barry sees the racism Iris, Wally and Joe deal with.  The show ignores their race completely but it might be totally interesting to explore ideas where it's not ignored.

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, doram said:

I kinda like the fact that race is "supposed" to be a non-issue in the Flash-world. Sometimes, one just needs a break & it's nice to imagine a world where racism does not exist. We don't think too hard of the logistics of a black single father adopting a white boy, and the interracial relationships are treated as non-issues. 

"Supposed to be" - just because racism does not exist in the show doesn't mean that the writers are not racist in the way they depict their non-white characters. 

Well when you ignore race as they do in the flash world - it kinda perpetuates racism anyway... because it ignores the identity of certain people in order to "have a break" from a reality they face.

I get it though - it's nice for it not to be an issue, but it also feels a bit off sometimes.  Everytime I see Iris asleep in bed and she's not wearing a head scarf I KNOW it's fake.  Can I just say how awesome it was in How To Get Away with Murder, Annalise wore a head scarf to bed like most black women?  It's a thing.

For me - even if I can appreciate "the break" - it's not really a break because I still see the disparity in how Iris West is treated compared to other leading ladies.  It's glaring.  And then even if she was treated "the same", to deny her her identity as a black woman as if it's somehow "bad" or would drag down the story is kinda bad in of itself.  I mean - really?  That's just sad.  It's the same sentiment as the idea that Superman can't be black because it would mean his childhood wasn't idyllic and thus he couldn't grow up to be the hero.  

I hate that my black existence is something I and others feel the need to "take a break" from because society is too racist to accept all of me, and their (society's) treatment of me.

Why is it that we have to ignore or pretend "colorblindness" when it comes to black characters and other characters of color - reducing those characters of color to "neutral" characters that are basically "white with colored skin"?  

I know there is nothing about comic Iris West that means she has to be white - nothing at all - but it's still frustrating to see a black Iris West, and know that she's only black in name only - and that she's also tokenized a bit.  

I long for the day when race doesn't matter, has no impact and means nothing - but that day hasn't come and until it does, sometimes it's painful to see "black" characters with no grounding in a black reality.

[phoenics]

It's a catch-22.

Edited May 9, 2017 by phoenics

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The problem - as you stated - is that there is a disparity between the way the white characters and the black characters are treated by the writers. Iris is silenced, and is not treated at all as a leading lady.

That's in part because there is no leading lady.  There's Barry Allen as the lead character and everyone else around him, White, Black, Asian or Blue Albino (ie, whatever the fuck Caitlin is suppose to be now) is in a lesser, supporting role.  Iris is the Girlfriend/Victim, Joe is the Father, HR is the funny Uncle, Cisco is the Best Friend, Wally is the Junior Hero, Julian was the Real-life Rival, but I've no idea what he is now, Secondary Science Support, maybe, Caitlin was Science Support and is something like Object of Redemption.  The point is, there is no lead but Barry.  There is no Lois to his Clark (or even a Dean to his Sam).  Iris might have been closer to that in Season One, but those days are long gone.

[quarks]

9 hours ago, doram said:

I care that we never saw the house Iris lived with Eddie and where she lived between then and when she and Barry moved into their loft is a complete mystery --- but Caitlin gets an apartment (that we've used all of 3 times), and Patty "Temporary Love Interest" Spivot got a whole set for her home. 

I'm in complete agreement that Iris is underused and marginalized, but not about the sets - that's actually the direct opposite.

Iris got two complete standing sets for her office/work areas, Jitters and later the newspaper, both larger than the two apartment sets you mention. The other two got jobs that just happened to be on standing or previously created sets (Star Labs and the Mercury Labs set for Caitlin, and the Central City police and the Barry Labs set for Patty). Caitlin's apartment in the second season was Felicity's slightly redecorated bedroom set from Arrow (which also made only one appearance). That set was then dismantled and its soundstage area turned into one of the League of Assassins areas.  That was all back in the happy days when Berlanti was only juggling two shows on one lot. And in that season, we did see Iris in a bedroom with Eddie.

In the following season, when Berlanti was juggling three shows on one lot, Iris kept her standing work set, but Caitlin's apartment completely disappeared, and Patty Spivot, remarkably enough, turned out to be living with Diggle.  This season, with Berlanti juggling four shows, Caitlin ended up in in one of the Supergirl sets.  Barry and Iris got a standing apartment set.

So I'd argue the opposite: the sets are what makes the current situation with Iris all that odder.  They spent the money on elaborate standing sets for her, and yet they continue to marginalize her as a character.  She isn't even getting the "Hmm, what is the one thing that I wanted to do before I die," plot, which would seem a no brainer. 

[Katsullivan]

I imagined a lot of discussion after the sizzle was released but this is way more than I bargained for so hope no one will mind too much if I don't respond to the many quotes/replies left for me. To add my 2 cents to the current discussion: I agree with @quarks that the fact that they established an elaborate set for Iris's various working places is one of the reasons why it stands out that they are marginalizing her. I am quite certain that there was some directorial/writing change on staff  between 1A & 1B because the set-up for Iris to be integrated into Team Flash through hers and Mason's investigation of Wells was obviously retconned. 

I don't think it matters that Caitlin or Patty get recycled sets. I don't watch these other shows so it makes no difference to me if Caitlin is living in Felicity's house or Patty is living in Kara's. What matters is that we never see Iris in her home. She and Eddie have one bedroom scene of undetermined location and we never see Iris in her home environment.

Besides a physical set, we don't even know where Iris lived between Eddie & Barry. Did she move back home? There are certainly a lot of cozy breakfast and supper scenes at the table. But then in 3x9, Barry mentions that her apartment is too small for two people? So what is the truth?

.

Meanwhile the sizzle reel, while spectacular, just reminded me of everything wrong with this Save Iris story. The entire reel is (mostly) about Barry, Savitar, and the battle for Iris's life and conversely, Barry's soul and there isn't a single word of dialogue from Iris. Lots of shots of Candice, looking  beautiful and acting her face out (and her hand too - that one-second of her touching Savitar's cheek and him melting has been giffed in slow-motion all over tumblr) but not even one word from her. The lengths the writers go to silence this charismatic gem is ridiculous.

[Katsullivan]

10 hours ago, doram said:

I care that the show ignores connections Iris could have with the other characters - HR, as a fellow literary, non-STEM member of the team; Cisco & Caitlin whom she knew before Barry for 9 months - and keeps her in a box with Barry, Joe, and sometimes Wally. 

I care that Barry is yelling at Wally in front of Iris in "Wrath of Savitar" and she doesn't say a word to defend her brother - even though 2 seasons ago, Iris was jumping between Barry and Joe when Joe treated Barry the same way. Similarly, I care that Wally, a young Black boy, gets chewed out for a mistake in the same episode while Caitlin, an older white woman is given a pass for doing something even worse and more deliberately. 

The problem - as you stated - is that there is a disparity between the way the white characters and the black characters are treated by the writers. Iris is silenced, and is not treated at all as a leading lady. 

This, IMO, is the problem with this show and its "color-blindedness". It's apparently set in some utopic version of Earth where racial tensions with the systematic discrimination and implicit bias are non-existent, and that would be all well and good if we don't see the writing exhibiting the same systematic discrimination and implicit bias. It's not a coincidence that the most developed people on the show are Barry, any version of Harrison Wells, Julian Albert, followed by Cisco Ramon. That the most developed woman on the show in terms of back story, screen-time and POV is Caitlin Snow. That Joe's importance rests in the way he supports Barry to the exclusion of his biological children. That Wally is such a neglected character that someone in the writer's room suggested that Kid Flash would leave his soon-to-die sister for a booty call, and another person in the writer's room thought it was a great idea. That Iris might be the second-billed star, but a casual watcher of this show would think she was just a recurring guest star. That the show repeatedly has two people of color (Cisco & Iris) reaffirm that their lives are worth less than the "souls" of their white best friends. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

I don't think it matters that Caitlin or Patty get recycled sets.

It does, because it shows how much money Flash is willing to invest in the character.  Those long term standing sets are considerably more expensive than the barely recycled Arrow sets.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, doram said:

We literally don't know where Iris lived for an entire season. That's not a problem that they needed to build anything to fix. 

Do you really think any of that would be different if Iris, Joe and Wally were White?

[tofutan]

Quote

I'm not sure you realize this, but you've just implied that all black children grow up with a crappy childhood because of racism and would be incapable of growing up to be nice and friendly.  

A story where somebody is nice *despite* having a crappy childhood is still a very different story than somebody who grew up in a very idyllic way. IMO a large part of Superman is that he has it easy, but he *makes* things hard for himself. He can pass for human and have a normal life, but he puts himself out there. He has all these powers, but he uses them to help people and puts a lot of moral restrictions on himself. He could embrace his Kryptonian heritage but he's human because of the love for his parents. 

It's not the "being black" part that I object to, it's the being bullied for it before going to Metropolis (where the current version of Superman was usually talked down to because he's not a cityboy) and that was in the pitch the original poster proposed. [and for the record, I'm sure they could come up with a scenario where a black Superman still has a reasonably idyllic childhood] 

Yes, they could still have him make the same choices, to be a hero, to mostly reject his Kryptonian heritage while having a traumatic childhood (whether as a black or a white character), but the context of these choices would be very different and hence it would be a very different type of story and a very different type of character. It would be the same if you, let's say changed the backstory to The Kents being part of the Irish Mafia or The Kents being filthy rich real estate tycoons living in the city. Yeah, he could still get a cape and fly around and save people and date Lois Lane, but it would still be an extremely different story. 

It ultimately depends on whether you see Superman as a set of powers or as a specific story (last survivor of an alien race choosing to be a defender of humanity, wide eyed country boy falling for tough as nails city reporter who ignored him at first, person who could be worshipped as a god but choosing to be humble and stereotypical boy scout because of oodles of inherent goodness => you can still have all those while being black, but I think having an "everybody bullies you because you are black because rural Kansas" backstory would give these stories a very different tinge. Btw, I'm debating back and forth whether doing a "black kid raised by white parents" would be an interesting variation on the Superman mythos or whether the fact that the Kents adopted somebody from a different race [Kryptonian] is not that apparent to outsiders is an important part again in how he chooses to act on his powers and on his heritage; I'm leaning more towards it being interesting). 

Edited May 10, 2017 by tofutan

[RedVitC]

 Moved here from the episode discussion because I don't want to derail that conversation. In response to a comment asking whether Iris fans are happy with how she's written:

I apologize in advance if this will sound ranty: About Iris and how she is written. I don't feel at all that she has nothing outside of Barry, but I think getting into that discussion will get us nowhere. I'm not going to pretend that I like how they've written her all the time, there is room for improvement and there is legitimate criticism about how female characters on the Flash are written. But I love her character. Not for what she can be or should be, but what she is on my screen each week. Maybe Candice helps in that regard, I don't know. I always keep two things in mind: 1. People usually criticize Iris no matter what she does and 2.I think people tend to forget (myself probably included).

1. If she doesn't stay to talk with Barry, she's not loyal. If she does, she's just giving pep talks. When she investigates things like in season 1 people actually called her nosy and she should mind her own business etc, when anyone else tells Barry something it's good advice/helpful/wise/saving the day etc, when she does it it's 'just a pep talk' ( no matter if it actually saved the day). She had that great episode where she took action to leave behind a journalistic legacy (and voiced her opinion). After that episode I went to a place where I know they always criticize the show/character for not having things outside of Barry. I was curious if they would be happy. You know what I saw? Crickets. They didn't even mention it. Of course, the next episode they were back to talking about how Iris is just this or just that etc.

2. In season one and even parts of season 2, one of the complaints I saw was that her storylines were too separate from Barry and the team. Like that episode where she started working as a journalist and her mentor didn't take her seriously. And also the stuff with her mother. And then suddenly the complaint becomes that she doesn't have enough separate storylines.

In season 2a Iris barely had any scenes with Barry and frankly not that much screentime, Candice sold her plot with her mom well in the scenes she did have, but it was very worrying as an Iris fan that it looked like she was being sidelined. I'm just going to say this because it bothers me, and I don't mean to attack anyone, especially not anyone here since I mostly checked out on reading this board during 2a. But sometimes I see some of the people who now that Iris is in a relationship with Barry are so worried for Iris because they think she's 'only a love interest', but I seem to remember they didn't really seem to care that much when it looked like she was being pushed out of her own show on all fronts. I'm going to stress that I'm not talking about you guys. I know there are lots of people who are truly frustrated and genuinely want it all for Iris and I can only applaud that. It's just something that I have seen.

Luckily there is also a lot of love for Iris to balance it all out, but sometimes it can be frustrating because it feels like some people are looking for something to criticize. I guess my point is: there are legitimate complaints about the writing, but I think there is a lot to love about Iris just as she is.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, tofutan said:

A story where somebody is nice *despite* having a crappy childhood is still a very different story than somebody who grew up in a very idyllic way. IMO a large part of Superman is that he has it easy, but he *makes* things hard for himself. He can pass for human and have a normal life, but he puts himself out there. He has all these powers, but he uses them to help people and puts a lot of moral restrictions on himself. He could embrace his Kryptonian heritage but he's human because of the love for his parents. 

It's not the "being black" part that I object to, it's the being bullied for it before going to Metropolis (where the current version of Superman was usually talked down to because he's not a cityboy) and that was in the pitch the original poster proposed. [and for the record, I'm sure they could come up with a scenario where a black Superman still has a reasonably idyllic childhood] 

Yes, they could still have him make the same choices, to be a hero, to mostly reject his Kryptonian heritage while having a traumatic childhood (whether as a black or a white character), but the context of these choices would be very different and hence it would be a very different type of story and a very different type of character. It would be the same if you, let's say changed the backstory to The Kents being part of the Irish Mafia or The Kents being filthy rich real estate tycoons living in the city. Yeah, he could still get a cape and fly around and save people and date Lois Lane, but it would still be an extremely different story. 

It ultimately depends on whether you see Superman as a set of powers or as a specific story (last survivor of an alien race choosing to be a defender of humanity, wide eyed country boy falling for tough as nails city reporter who ignored him at first, person who could be worshipped as a god but choosing to be humble and stereotypical boy scout because of oodles of inherent goodness => you can still have all those while being black, but I think having an "everybody bullies you because you are black because rural Kansas" backstory would give these stories a very different tinge. Btw, I'm debating back and forth whether doing a "black kid raised by white parents" would be an interesting variation on the Superman mythos or whether the fact that the Kents adopted somebody from a different race [Kryptonian] is not that apparent to outsiders is an important part again in how he chooses to act on his powers and on his heritage; I'm leaning more towards it being interesting). 

Yeah - again - you're suggesting that Superman being black equals a "crappy childhood" and my entire point was to dispute that.

Let's just agree to disagree.  I don't agree with what you've said - and you're kinda making it worse by equating being black with being raised by an Iris Mafia family, lol... it's getting worse so I'm just going to stop replying, lol.

Jesus.

[phoenics]

33 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

 Moved here from the episode discussion because I don't want to derail that conversation. In response to a comment asking whether Iris fans are happy with how she's written:

I apologize in advance if this will sound ranty: About Iris and how she is written. I don't feel at all that she has nothing outside of Barry, but I think getting into that discussion will get us nowhere. I'm not going to pretend that I like how they've written her all the time, there is room for improvement and there is legitimate criticism about how female characters on the Flash are written. But I love her character. Not for what she can be or should be, but what she is on my screen each week. Maybe Candice helps in that regard, I don't know. I always keep two things in mind: 1. People usually criticize Iris no matter what she does and 2.I think people tend to forget (myself probably included).

1. If she doesn't stay to talk with Barry, she's not loyal. If she does, she's just giving pep talks. When she investigates things like in season 1 people actually called her nosy and she should mind her own business etc, when anyone else tells Barry something it's good advice/helpful/wise/saving the day etc, when she does it it's 'just a pep talk' ( no matter if it actually saved the day). She had that great episode where she took action to leave behind a journalistic legacy (and voiced her opinion). After that episode I went to a place where I know they always criticize the show/character for not having things outside of Barry. I was curious if they would be happy. You know what I saw? Crickets. They didn't even mention it. Of course, the next episode they were back to talking about how Iris is just this or just that etc.

2. In season one and even parts of season 2, one of the complaints I saw was that her storylines were too separate from Barry and the team. Like that episode where she started working as a journalist and her mentor didn't take her seriously. And also the stuff with her mother. And then suddenly the complaint becomes that she doesn't have enough separate storylines.

In season 2a Iris barely had any scenes with Barry and frankly not that much screentime, Candice sold her plot with her mom well in the scenes she did have, but it was very worrying as an Iris fan that it looked like she was being sidelined. I'm just going to say this because it bothers me, and I don't mean to attack anyone, especially not anyone here since I mostly checked out on reading this board during 2a. But sometimes I see some of the people who now that Iris is in a relationship with Barry are so worried for Iris because they think she's 'only a love interest', but I seem to remember they didn't really seem to care that much when it looked like she was being pushed out of her own show on all fronts. I'm going to stress that I'm not talking about you guys. I know there are lots of people who are truly frustrated and genuinely want it all for Iris and I can only applaud that. It's just something that I have seen.

Luckily there is also a lot of love for Iris to balance it all out, but sometimes it can be frustrating because it feels like some people are looking for something to criticize. I guess my point is: there are legitimate complaints about the writing, but I think there is a lot to love about Iris just as she is.

If I could like this a thousand times I would.

In today's climate - politically speaking - it's getting harder and harder to ignore the obvious double standard that Iris is subjected to.  She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.  She has to do everything more gently than any other character and isn't allowed to be fully human, or she's branded as "mean", "annoying", "useless"... it's just a whole lot of internalized misogynoir against Iris and I'm so sick of it.

I love seeing Iris be so supportive and wonderful - but it bothered me tonight that she cared more about Barry's feelings and we didn't get to see any of her own personal reaction.  The revelation that a Future Barry becomes Savitar and kills her to become Savitar (WTF) just didn't even have any emotional impact at all except to send her to Barry's side as his confidant.  And as an Iris fan, I would have loved to see Barry comforting HER over this because - what a horrible shock to find out a future version of your fiance grows up to want to kill you.  

So, yeah I am frustrated - but not for the reasons so many Iris-detractors(haters) are (they just want to find a reason to hate on her), but because I love the character and want better for her.

Guess we'll have to let the fanfic writers do these plots justice, since the writers only care about the impact to Barry.  All of the characters seem to be nothing but props for Barry, but this is especially bad.

It has to be affecting Iris that her fiance's future self wants to kill her but ... the writers gave us nothing.  Shame on them.

The one positive I can give the writers for this episode was having Iris front and center and leading - and showing WestAllen falling for each other again - but not giving Iris a PoV for the Savitar reveal was a mistake.

I can kinda forgive not having Iris at work - if I only had days to live, I'd be taking vacation time, lol.

Edited May 10, 2017 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Could be.  I'm not sure it's conscious racism.  That's more of what happened with Sleepy Hollow.

Here I think it's largely unconscious.  Doesn't make it better - it actually makes it harder to overcome.  Kinda like it's easy to root out overt racism and much harder to root out covert racism - and internalized racism and bias.

Shonda is a black woman - so she understands unconscious bias and racism better than these other writers who never have to deal with their own bias and probably think of themselves and liberal and above racism.  Shonda understands centering whiteness vs centering a black woman.  Shonda fought ABC wanting to cast a white woman to play Olivia Pope even though she's based on a BLACK woman.

These writers don't - they wrote Iris and the Wests as black, but not black.  There is no grounding in blackness - no acknowledgement of their black reality - unlike Scandal where Olivia and Eli Pope talk about having to be twice as good to get half of what they got - a speech that every black person in America understood and that left white America scratching their heads, lol.

But these writers aren't Shonda.  They wanted diversity, but not equality - because they probably believe token diversity IS equality and that CP/Iris is lucky to even be here, rather than understanding that they are lucky to have HER.  I don't think the writers are consciously racist - I just think they have biases that get in the way.  Same thing with PR and Marketing - they tended to ignore CP and promote DP - thankfully they've corrected that.

It shouldn't be this hard to write for more than white people.  We need more Shondas and Avas behind the camera and in the writing room.

[tofutan]

Quote

Yeah - again - you're suggesting that Superman being black equals a "crappy childhood" and my entire point was to dispute that.

No, the person who originally posed the mind experiment suggested that being explicitly being part of his childhood. To me it sounded that they felt that was a main angle as to they they thought that that would be interesting. That's what I was reacting to. I did not come up with that scenario. They laid out a scenario where that was an explicit part of it. 

Quote

and you're kinda making it worse by equating being black with being raised by an Iris Mafia family,

I like how you ignore that I also compared it to growing up rich and pampered. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by tofutan

[Trini]

37 minutes ago, phoenics said:

These writers don't - they wrote Iris and the Wests as black, but not black.  There is no grounding in blackness - no acknowledgement of their black reality - unlike Scandal where Olivia and Eli Pope talk about having to be twice as good to get half of what they got - a speech that every black person in America understood and that left white America scratching their heads, lol.

 

But these writers aren't Shonda.  They wanted diversity, but not equality - because they probably believe token diversity IS equality and that CP/Iris is lucky to even be here, rather than understanding that they are lucky to have HER.  I don't think the writers are consciously racist - I just think they have biases that get in the way.  Same thing with PR and Marketing - they tended to ignore CP and promote DP - thankfully they've corrected that.

It shouldn't be this hard to write for more than white people.  We need more Shondas and Avas behind the camera and in the writing room.

Speaking of the Wests being black; unless I'm forgetting something from Season 1, when Barry checked his hand/skin color in "Cause and Effect" [improv by Grant?] after Wally said he was his brother, I think that was the first time the show has acknowledged (albeit very indirectly) that the Wests are in fact a different race -- Black.

At (the very, very) least Cisco gets to acknowledge his Hispanic heritage occasionally by speaking Spanish. 

Not that I'm expecting any nuanced, or informed statements concerning race from this show (or network).

[VCRTracking]

On 3/23/2016 at 5:47 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Could be wrong, but I think that Glider may be the only female supervillain with documented kills. I'd assume that Killer Frost has killed people, but we haven't seen them. Peekaboo absolutely didn't try to kill anyone, BEB failed, Dr. Light tried to kill Barry but didn't. I don't think Plastique did, despite her power lending itself to actually killing lots of people. 

BEB killed two people, Lindsay Kang and Bill Carlisle.

Edited May 10, 2017 by VCRTracking

[quarks]

19 hours ago, doram said:

What difference does it make if they don't use the new sets? If anything the fact that they could recycle a set for Iris's home but can't be bothered is telling. Not giving PoCs homes on TV is a thing. As @Katsullivan said, We literally don't know where Iris lived for an entire season. That's not a problem that they needed to build anything to fix. 

But they did use the new sets. We saw far more of Iris in her workplace set than we did of either Caitlin or Patty in their borrowed sets.  Second, the original argument here was that Flash was providing more sets for the white women characters Caitlin and Patty. I noted that this was (and is) untrue - Caitlin and Patty never got new sets. Iris did.  

The set issue moved from a minor problem in season 1 of Flash and season 3 of Arrow (things like Caitlin using Felicity's apartment, or Oliver and Thea having coffee at Jitters where the only change was taking the sign down) to a much bigger problem after Legends of Tomorrow started filming at the same time, and became considerably worse this season after Supergirl took over a soundstage. Flash went from showing us nearly every character in a home/apartment set at least once in its first season (even if Cisco's family was, rather unexpectedly, living in the house where Barry's mother died), to rarely showing us anyone in a home/apartment set outside of Joe West's home in the second season, to having Team Arrow run through Joe West's home looking for bad guys in the third season - doing nothing to disguise that set other than removing the pictures.  (It's also not a coincidence that fan/critical complaints are growing as the sets look worse.)  Yet, although this had more to do with Barry, she and Barry also got one of only two new standing sets on Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow this season.

Meanwhile, despite having two sex scenes this season, main cast member Oliver Queen has now gone more than a season without an apartment or bedroom set. (One sex scene was filmed so that the camera only had to look at a headboard/bed - they didn't even bother with a set.)   Felicity didn't get an apartment set until the third season - and then only got it for one episode. She's now in the set built for Thea (back in the season 1 of Flash/season 3 of Arrow period), even though EBR has publicly wondered why Felicity is still there - she thinks Felicity would have moved out. Main love interest Mon-El never had an apartment. We've never seen where Wynn lives. And although I agree that Julian has received more attention/character development than Iris has this year, we've never seen his home either. 

So the marginalization/sexism/unthinking racism that I'm seeing has nothing to do with sets, but rather that Flash thinks that having a black woman just stand around in designer clothing when her life is threatened, and having her black brother hop over to an alternate universe to get laid, while the white characters run around trying to save the black woman while also arguing about how to save the white woman, is somehow a good idea. Or that the episode that finally gives Iris some screentime ends up focusing on Barry's fears and Barry's memories. Especially since, unlike the set problem, this problem is unique to Iris - none of the other women in the Arrowverse shows are reduced to "supportive love interest" to the same extent. Even Caitlin, though she's a close runner-up.

6 hours ago, doram said:

I'd argue that the PR/Marketing is overt - they are deliberately choosing not to promote their leading lady, which is practically as good as them refusing to do their jobs.

I think that the CW's PR/Marketing team is just that bad at their jobs. Their promotion is just terrible across the board. And for proof, I invite you to look at the CW's numbers.  Yeah, some of this is because not all of the CW shows are particularly good (looking at you, Reign) but the CW also has a couple of critically praised, award winning shows (Jane the Virgin, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) that also have terrible numbers. 

Iris is also hardly the only character getting shafted here or inexplicably underused in the show promotion. Supergirl is bringing back Calista Flockhart/Cat Grant next episode - a fan favorite and the biggest star on Supergirl - and the CW is barely pushing her.

And, well, the other problem here is that marginalizing Iris and mostly keeping Iris and Caitlin in the love interest role has largely worked for Flash. Sure, their numbers have fallen this season, but the show is still the best performing show on the CW - outperforming the shows that give women more attention and better stories/plots. I don't think it helps that largely male-dominated and CW workhorse Supernatural continues to outperform about half of the CW shows, or that Supergirl in its second season is already falling behind Arrow's second, third and even fourth season numbers. It's not a huge incentive for change.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, tofutan said:

No, the person who originally posed the mind experiment suggested that being explicitly being part of his childhood. To me it sounded that they felt that was a main angle as to they they thought that that would be interesting. That's what I was reacting to. I did not come up with that scenario. They laid out a scenario where that was an explicit part of it. 

I like how you ignore that I also compared it to growing up rich and pampered. 

For clarity, here is what johntfs said originally (he doesn't imply that Clark would have a crappy life - crappy was your word):

One thing I'd like to see happen (and I know that even now it won't be for quite a while) is a re-telling of the Superman story with Kal-el as a Black man.  I don't know, just the idea of Clark Kent as a Black kid growing up in Kansas and dealing with racism when he has the power to swat any racist he sees like bugs would be interesting to me.

From my perspective - this doesn't preclude Clark from having an idyllic life and to suggest that it does, means you are saying that no black person can have an idyllic upbringing because they deal with racism.  And your words were actually that they'd have a crappy life.  I - as a black woman - am telling you that I think this PoV is problematic.  Every black person grows up with racism as part of their lives - it doesn't make their lives crappy.  It is annoying and sometimes really wrong, but I still look back on my life and think of it as idyllic even though I faced racism in my childhood and after.  Your comment reminded me of when Trump deigned all black folks to have grown up in the hood/ghetto/projects and decided we all had horrible lives that only he could fix.  Um, no.  My mom (M.S.) and dad (a PhD) still managed to raise two daughters - both PhDs.  We didn't have a crappy life and still don't - even though racism was still there.  

I also think your view of Superman growing up in an idyllic way doesn't actually jibe with what I saw.  I saw Clark being an outcast because of his powers and having to hide them and himself from others to keep his secret.  Making him a black kid dealing with racism in addition to that would be a bit more interesting to me simply because he would still grow up to be a protector of them all.

And yes - I ignored the rich and pampered part because it didn't relate to what we'd been discussing which was a crappy vs idyllic life.  In fact, wouldn't the rich and pampered part mean he had a more idyllic life?  He'd probably be a jerk though, lol.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Speaking of the Wests being black; unless I'm forgetting something from Season 1, when Barry checked his hand/skin color in "Cause and Effect" [improv by Grant?] after Wally said he was his brother, I think that was the first time the show has acknowledged (albeit very indirectly) that the Wests are in fact a different race -- Black.

At (the very, very) least Cisco gets to acknowledge his Hispanic heritage occasionally by speaking Spanish. 

Not that I'm expecting any nuanced, or informed statements concerning race from this show (or network).

I think other than "White Shadow" - that was the only other time they acknowledged race.  I did laugh outloud when Barry looked at his hand in confusion when Wally said he was his brother.

[phoenics]

4 minutes ago, quarks said:

But they did use the new sets. We saw far more of Iris in her workplace set than we did of either Caitlin or Patty in their borrowed sets.  Second, the original argument here was that Flash was providing more sets for the white women characters Caitlin and Patty. I noted that this was (and is) untrue - Caitlin and Patty never got new sets. Iris did.  

The set issue moved from a minor problem in season 1 of Flash and season 3 of Arrow (things like Caitlin using Felicity's apartment, or Oliver and Thea having coffee at Jitters where the only change was taking the sign down) to a much bigger problem after Legends of Tomorrow started filming at the same time, and became considerably worse this season after Supergirl took over a soundstage. Flash went from showing us nearly every character in a home/apartment set at least once in its first season (even if Cisco's family was, rather unexpectedly, living in the house where Barry's mother died), to rarely showing us anyone in a home/apartment set outside of Joe West's home in the second season, to having Team Arrow run through Joe West's home looking for bad guys in the third season - doing nothing to disguise that set other than removing the pictures.  (It's also not a coincidence that fan/critical complaints are growing as the sets look worse.)  Yet, although this had more to do with Barry, she and Barry also got one of only two new standing sets on Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow this season.

Meanwhile, despite having two sex scenes this season, main cast member Oliver Queen has now gone more than a season without an apartment or bedroom set. (One sex scene was filmed so that the camera only had to look at a headboard/bed - they didn't even bother with a set.)   Felicity didn't get an apartment set until the third season - and then only got it for one episode. She's now in the set built for Thea (back in the season 1 of Flash/season 3 of Arrow period), even though EBR has publicly wondered why Felicity is still there - she thinks Felicity would have moved out. Main love interest Mon-El never had an apartment. We've never seen where Wynn lives. And although I agree that Julian has received more attention/character development than Iris has this year, we've never seen his home either. 

So the marginalization/sexism/unthinking racism that I'm seeing has nothing to do with sets, but rather that Flash thinks that having a black woman just stand around in designer clothing when her life is threatened, and having her black brother hop over to an alternate universe to get laid, while the white characters run around trying to save the black woman while also arguing about how to save the white woman, is somehow a good idea. Or that the episode that finally gives Iris some screentime ends up focusing on Barry's fears and Barry's memories. Especially since, unlike the set problem, this problem is unique to Iris - none of the other women in the Arrowverse shows are reduced to "supportive love interest" to the same extent. Even Caitlin, though she's a close runner-up.

I think that the CW's PR/Marketing team is just that bad at their jobs. Their promotion is just terrible across the board. And for proof, I invite you to look at the CW's numbers.  Yeah, some of this is because not all of the CW shows are particularly good (looking at you, Reign) but the CW also has a couple of critically praised, award winning shows (Jane the Virgin, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) that also have terrible numbers. 

Iris is also hardly the only character getting shafted here or inexplicably underused in the show promotion. Supergirl is bringing back Calista Flockhart/Cat Grant next episode - a fan favorite and the biggest star on Supergirl - and the CW is barely pushing her.

And, well, the other problem here is that marginalizing Iris and mostly keeping Iris and Caitlin in the love interest role has largely worked for Flash. Sure, their numbers have fallen this season, but the show is still the best performing show on the CW - outperforming the shows that give women more attention and better stories/plots. I don't think it helps that largely male-dominated and CW workhorse Supernatural continues to outperform about half of the CW shows, or that Supergirl in its second season is already falling behind Arrow's second, third and even fourth season numbers. It's not a huge incentive for change.

I agree with most of this - even though I do still think Iris gets shafted more than the other white female characters.  Definitely in how she's promoted vs those.

Also - there is a difference between showing a set that is a WORK set, vs a home set.  Both Patty and Caitlin got home sets while Iris, supposedly the leading lady, never got one until she moved in with Barry or lived with Eddie.  Everything was tied to a man.  With Patty it was the same with her home set though - Caitlin is the only one to get a set all to herself for her.

When no one knows where Iris lives it just adds to the fact that she had no interior life on the show and the show wasn't committed to delving into it.  When Patty got more PoV in S2 than Iris did in all of S1-S2A, that was jarring and ugly.   

[VCRTracking]

To use The Godfather as a reference, we all want Iris to be Kay Adams but she's stuck being Apollonia(for now).

Edited May 10, 2017 by VCRTracking

[johntfs]

On 5/10/2017 at 7:32 AM, phoenics said:

From my perspective - this doesn't preclude Clark from having an idyllic life and to suggest that it does, means you are saying that no black person can have an idyllic upbringing because they deal with racism.  And your words were actually that they'd have a crappy life.  I - as a black woman - am telling you that I think this PoV is problematic.

As the dude who raised the Superman is Black idea, my concept was that Clark Kent would have pretty much a fairly normal (not necessarily idyllic) childhood given his situation (Black kid in rural Kansas).  I know this idea would get a lot of hate, full-on spittle-flecked cross-burning hate.  That said, I would love the idea that the world's greatest superhero has a Black face.

I suppose another (really fucked up) idea would be to have Kal-el be White and somehow raised by Black people who embody every nasty racist sterotype one can think of (crack addict mugger welfare queens or what have you) a little but like Steve Martin's character in The Jerk movies.  I could see Dave Chappelle having a lot of fun with that concept.  Especially when we pull back to find that the whole thing was a pitch meeting with a bunch of White asshole Hollywood types slowly turning the previous concept into White Ghetto Superman.

Edited May 11, 2017 by johntfs

[johntfs]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:52 AM, VCRTracking said:

To use The Godfather as a reference, we all want Iris to be Kay Adams but she's stuck being Apollonia(for now).

Fuck that.  I want Iris to be Connie Corleone circa Godfather Part III.

[VCRTracking]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

Fuck that.  I want Iris to be Connie Corleone circa Godfather Part III.

Iris: Barry. Now they'll fear you.

Barry: Maybe they should fear YOU!

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Iris: Barry. Now they'll fear you.

Barry: Maybe they should fear YOU!

I have a weird story idea where a metahuman criminal with high stealth abilities figures out how closely Iris is connected to the Flash and exploits it by bringing her leads and story materials with the idea that if he gets caught, the leads (which lead to important stories about shady government and corporate dealings) obviously stop.  So Iris should maybe steer Flash in directions other than his.

[Trini]

From the episode thread:

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

...Even more problems with the writing for Caitlin/Killer Frost, just from this episode:

 

• Setting up her redemption arc — because they just can’t commit to making her villain. (And we still don’t know her motivations.)
•  …In the same episode where she’s all “Oh well,” about Iris dying. So she and Iris are supposed to be friends*/friendly after that?
• Describing Killer Frost/the cold powers as something that can just be fixed/cured. By the men in her life. (But then again, the only woman in her life (who’s actually NOT in her life) they’ve shown is her mother; in one episode.)

*(Then there’s the larger issue of almost never showing Iris and Caitlin interacting or being friends)

I just don’t think they realize how badly this storyline is coming across. On ALL levels.

Just to expand on this a bit: Not only have the writers/showrunners failed to establish a relationship between it's only female regulars --they barely have scenes together or talk to each other -- but now they are actively pitting them against each other. Caitlin Frost basically said that Iris has to die (Savitar's plans must be fulfilled) to get what she wants.

Which would be ... 'fine' if she was going to stay a villain, but I can already see the redemption arc coming, and I don't think I'll ever be completely okay with Caitlin back on the team. Team Flash (especially Barry and Iris) shouldn't be okay with it either, but that's how they're going to write it.

[Trini]

On 5/10/2017 at 8:32 AM, phoenics said:

I think other than "White Shadow" - that was the only other time they acknowledged race.  I did laugh outloud when Barry looked at his hand in confusion when Wally said he was his brother.

Oh, thanks for reminding me about "White shadow" -- ha!

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

From the episode thread:

Just to expand on this a bit: Not only have the writers/showrunners failed to establish a relationship between it's only female regulars --they barely have scenes together or talk to each other -- but now they are actively pitting them against each other. Caitlin Frost basically said that Iris has to die (Savitar's plans must be fulfilled) to get what she wants.

Which would be ... 'fine' if she was going to stay a villain, but I can already see the redemption arc coming, and I don't think I'll ever be completely okay with Caitlin back on the team. Team Flash (especially Barry and Iris) shouldn't be okay with it either, but that's how they're going to write it.

This exact thing has been bothering me too.  I think the only thing that could make it a little better would simply be for Caitlin and Iris to actually (*gasp*) speak to one another directly about it.  Remember in the first season when Iris confronted Caitlin for lying to her and then they were fine after that?  The show can do it, it just needs to TRY.

But honestly this is why I've hated the whole "powers make you evil if you're Caitlin" storyline because I KNEW it was a set up for her to be able to do all sorts of horrible and wrong things, potentially killing Iris in the process or bringing her darn near close to it and in the end, they'd "redeem" her and then she'd be back in the fold, acting like NOTHING ever happened.  Because - you know - it's ONLY Iris.  

**Seethes with rage**

That's just not okay.  It's NOT okay that she will just be able to come back with not one ounce of guilt at all.

You know how I knew they were gonna "redeem" her before the end of this season?

Because she hasn't killed ANYONE.  They don't want her to be too guilty, so they won't have her do anything that actually kills someone because they and this whole stupid plot point of her powers making her evil is the writers protecting the Caitlin character so they can get her back later on.

Honestly she's more interesting as KF - leave her that way - show that she COULD redeem herself if she wanted to, but that she chooses to stay evil and let bygones be bygones.

Honestly - I was pissed at her after she ice-kissed Barry and they didn't have Iris side eye her AT ALL.  The hell if any sista would have taken THAT ish lying down.  I'd have punched Cait in the face just to remind KF not to go near him again the next time she "went bad".

[quarks]

On 5/10/2017 at 11:24 AM, doram said:

The fact that the producers could easily provide a home set for Iris, but don't is part of the larger problem. 

Late to this, but I think it's a kinda important point, so I'll return to it.

On this show, it's not a fact that the producers could easily provide a home set for Iris. They are struggling to provide any sets at all.  In last week's episode, Flash used a grand total of one new "set" - which was not a set, but a location shot (the courtroom scene, the only location shot of the episode). Otherwise, every single scene was set on an existing set or lot area - either one of the main standing Flash sets or, in the case of the fire scene, a set previously used this season by Legends of Tomorrow and Supergirl.  This is at least the sixth episode this season to film with only one new set or location shot; at least three episodes have been filmed completely on existing sets. In tonight's episode, the "new" sets included Kara's bedroom, filmed with a slightly different camera filter. Lyla, Barry and Snart had their final talk in front of the DEO staircase, before the cut to a different part of the DEO set in an attempt to disguise that they were all on the Supergirl sets.  The King Shark Tank set has been used by Arrow, Legends of Tomorrow AND Flash previously this season.

Plus, the goalposts for this conversation have shifted. The original point was that Flash spent more money on sets for Caitlin and Patty than they did for Iris. When I noted that wasn't true, the conversation has now shifted to "we've seen more of Caitlin and Patty at home than Iris." Which again isn't true. We have seen more of Iris at home than of any other Flash character than Joe and Barry, first, in the main home set with Joe until she moved in with Eddie in the first season (which is to say, nine episodes of Iris at home), and in the one scene where she was in Eddie's bedroom. This season, we've seen her at home in virtually every episode since she moved in with Barry. Did we see Iris in her own apartment? Well, no - but we didn't see where Barry was living before he moved in with Joe in episode 10 - where he stayed until this season. So, yeah, sure, Iris didn't get her own apartment - but neither did Barry.

For that matter, it's something that Oliver Queen hasn't had for over a season, Mon-El never got. Felicity, granted, did - for one season 3 episode.  In season 4, she moved in with Oliver to the Oliver/Thea stunt set built in season 3, where she inexplicably stayed post breakup - EBR has publicly questioned why Felicity is still there.

In fact, since Arrow's first season, only two characters have had a home set built for their specific use, meant to be used by only one character - Kara on Supergirl and Sara Lance in Arrow's second season. Kara's set is used as a gathering spot for most of the cast (and, apparently, as a place for Barry and Iris to sleep), and Sara Lance's set wasn't a home set - it was a stunt set built as a comics homage. Eventually, pretty much every Arrow character other than Laurel and Slade ended up traipsing through it until Lyla blew it up.  

So no, this does not seem to be something that Flash can do easily.

What could they do easily? Give Iris more of a POV and let her go out in the field. I get that in this episode, the idea was to ensure that Barry wouldn't know where she was, but that hardly excuses multiple earlier episodes where she could have joined Team Flash in the field, or done some investigating, or whatever. For that matter, in this episode, let her help Felicity and Cisco find the power whatever - she's a journalist.  Have her call sources to see if anyone has an idea of where something like that might be. That wouldn't have required a new set, just a shot of Iris on a computer or a cell phone. And let her take on more of a leadership role in Team Flash - Patton's got the presence to pull that off. (Frankly, she's a more credible leader than Gustin, but I can only deal with so many problems per post.) 

And mostly, stop wasting Candice Patton.

On 5/10/2017 at 11:24 AM, doram said:

There's bad at your jobs, then there's going out of your way to promote the less important white woman over the leading lady --- who just happens to be black. If you're equating Cat Grant - a special guest star to Iris, the show's leading lady - we're going to agree to disagree on this. 

I wasn't equating them, just pointing out that this is another failure of the CW's promo department. 

But since you brought it up - the point of marketing isn't to give every character on the show equal treatment, or to ensure that the main romantic interest gets additional promotion. The point of marketing is to get people to watch the show. And here, I'd agree that the CW is failing with Iris - not because of her role in the show, but because the actress/character has a definite, loyal fanbase. Patton fills rooms at cons and gets long lines at autograph signings. Iris trended on Twitter tonight during a major political scandal. And on what I will be the first to admit is a mostly shallow note, Candice Patton is smoking hot. I say mostly shallow, because that sort of hotness helps bring in viewers. The CW's marketing absolutely should be taking advantage of all of this. They aren't. 

But Cat Grant isn't just. as you put it, a special guest star. She's a returning regular, Supergirl's hands down fan favorite last season, played by a well-known, recognizable, award-winning actress, someone who originally got viewers to tune into the show back when it was on CBS, and one of the biggest stars that the CW has ever had on its network.  This is the sort of thing networks usually at least try to promote the hell out of.  The CW didn't.  

What happens when you fail to massively promote the return of a fan favorite and a special appearance by one of the biggest stars your network has ever had?  (Looks at Supergirl's numbers this week.) Oh. That happens. 

So I'm sticking to my point here: the CW's promotion sucks. Yeah, there are other reasons for the decline in the numbers, but the promotion is definitely not helping, or doing its main job: getting viewers to tune in.