Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[TVSpectator]

I just like to think that Kelly just faked her own death and will show up around the end of this show as a major plot twits. 

[OtterMommy]

40 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Ooooh.  You just opened up a big can of worms!  Nick had already warned his mother that the Viktor and Adalind were back in town looking for Diana, so why in the blue blazes would she just show up with the child?  Juliette sends and email and says Nick is in danger and Momma Grimm does NOT call her son?  Momma Grimm was not dumb.  Diana senses the King's death and not the woman that she WILLINGLY!... left town with and does squat to save her life?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Mary M. was not coming back to the show and the only recourse was an ill conceived half-ass plot with swiss cheese holes?

This was a combination of 2 things:

1 - They felt they had to assassinate Juliette's character

2 - They felt they had to write MEM out.

Neither one of which, of course, was true.  There was really no excuse for what they did to Juliette--they could have "turned" her without destroying her character.  They also could have played the hexenbiest thing completely differently...but no, they had to do a character assassination (followed by a miraculous redemption of Adalind, which is just the same thing--and both are signs that the creative team needed to be replaced.  No show should ever do either of those things...).

Also, they didn't need to kill Mary Elizabeth Mastrontonio (yeah, sorry if I slaughtered the spelling there)...she was NEVER on the show.  She could have just remained "not there" without it being an issue.

I guess K/G/C thought they had to be "shocking" or something...which is ridiculous.  If they can't tell a story without throwing it in the fire, they have no business on a network show.

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I just like to think that Kelly just faked her own death and will show up around the end of this show as a major plot twits. 

Twits is right.  <hahaha>

[ShadowFacts]

10 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I guess K/G/C thought they had to be "shocking" or something...which is ridiculous.  If they can't tell a story without throwing it in the fire, they have no business on a network show.

That is the heart of the problem.  They want to go for shock value, and that shows up in the ridiculous sex follies/rapes and baby nonsense, too. 

[Darklazr]

16 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

This was a combination of 2 things:

1 - They felt they had to assassinate Juliette's character

2 - They felt they had to write MEM out.

Neither one of which, of course, was true.  There was really no excuse for what they did to Juliette--they could have "turned" her without destroying her character.  They also could have played the hexenbiest thing completely differently...but no, they had to do a character assassination (followed by a miraculous redemption of Adalind, which is just the same thing--and both are signs that the creative team needed to be replaced.  No show should ever do either of those things...).

Also, they didn't need to kill Mary Elizabeth Mastrontonio (yeah, sorry if I slaughtered the spelling there)...she was NEVER on the show.  She could have just remained "not there" without it being an issue.

I guess K/G/C thought they had to be "shocking" or something...which is ridiculous.  If they can't tell a story without throwing it in the fire, they have no business on a network show.

1) I am not a Juliette fan, but why assassinate the character for shits and grins?  Is this a case of the actors wanting their characters (Juliette in s4 and now Renard in s6) wanting to be the big bad and uber powerful?

2) Don't write Momma Grimm surviving for two decades without Nick's knowledge and then turn around and write a half-ass story where she just walks willy nilly into his house.

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Darklazr said:

1) I am not a Juliette fan, but why assassinate the character for shits and grins?  Is this a case of the actors wanting their characters (Juliette in s4 and now Renard in s6) wanting to be the big bad and uber powerful?

2) Don't write Momma Grimm surviving for two decades without Nick's knowledge and then turn around and write a half-ass story where she just walks willy nilly into his house.

As for #1, I honestly don't think Elizabeth Tulloch actually ever asked for Juliette to turn or to be the big bad.  I remember reading an interview with her done in, I think, season 3, which was probably the most, I don't know, revealing I've seen her to be regarding this show.  Basically, when she was hired K/G/C told her that Juliette would be a major character and such but it was frustrating in season 1 when she really didn't have anything to do.  Then she said something about how it took a while for them to figure out what Juliette should be doing, blah blah blah.  It really stuck out for me because Tulloch is--and I do not mean this in a negative way-- very good at conveying what the show wants her to.   She isn't one to speak out against her employers and she is very good at controlling an interview in a way where she can get out what TPTB wants her to get out, but not reveal any spoilers (I think Claire Coffee and Sasha Roiz are quite good at this, which is why so many of the interviews come from those 3 actors.  DG was good at it at one time, but I get the feeling that he has no more fucks to give and is willing to say what he feels--which is why we don't hear much from him anymore.  His last few interviews before cancellation was announced were, um, telling).  So, to see an article where she was even slightly critical of how her character was handled was telling--and the fact that she was basically saying that the show a) promised her something they couldn't delver and b) had no clue what to do with her.

I do think that Tulloch is professionally very smart.   Everything that I've heard indicates that she is very professional--she's always prepared, she's easy to work with, and she's willing to go the extra mile.  So, I don't think she was willing to go against whatever crazy ass thing TPTB threw at her on principle.  However, the fact that DG has made no secret of the fact that *he* was not happy about it, and given their off-screen relationship (and the fact that DG has, let's face it, a more vital role in the show) says quite a lot.  I also have to say that I admire the way Tulloch has handled herself with the "fans."  I follow her, and the rest of the cast, on Social Media and she's been treated quite poorly by a certain section of fans (to be fair, I think it is probably a pretty small number and I think that it might be even fewer people using multiple twitter and IG handles).  When I say poorly, I mean things like tweets and comments about how DG should leave her for someone else, how she should have died along with Juliette, how she is the most hated person on TV, and--I shit you not--how DG should leave her for CC (I'm sure Chris Thile loved that if he saw it...).  I'm not talking about characters here, I'm talking about the actors.  But she's handled it better than I think most humans could have in her position.  (Also, this is another--albeit catty and minor--reason why I'm willing to accept a Nick and Juliette/Eve reunion--just to piss those people off).

Anyway, off on a tangent--I don't think that we can say that the whole HexenJuliette/Eve thing happened at Tulloch's request.  Instead, I think it was some dumbass idea by the show runners and Tulloch handled it as best she could.

Now, as for Sasha Roiz--I don't blame him for wanting to be a villain.  Renard was a fascinating character in season 1.  And then, for 3 seasons, he was just..there. Renard should *always* have been a villain.  And, Renard is the sort of character that might or might not be able to survive without.  In other words, Roiz probably had some leverage that some of the other actors did not to give some sway about where his character went and why wouldn't he want Renard to have some substance?  Of course, this is all speculation on my part....he may have very well wanted Renard to be the good guy and TPTB decided against it (but I doubt it....)

For #2 - Yeah, that was some of the weakest story telling in a very weakly told story.  It made no sense and I really hope that other producers/networks take a good hard look at Grimm before offering K/G/C or some combination a new contract on anything.

[Free]

3 hours ago, Darklazr said:

1) I am not a Juliette fan, but why assassinate the character for shits and grins?  Is this a case of the actors wanting their characters (Juliette in s4 and now Renard in s6) wanting to be the big bad and uber powerful?

2) Don't write Momma Grimm surviving for two decades without Nick's knowledge and then turn around and write a half-ass story where she just walks willy nilly into his house.

I have no idea, it complete mess and it ended up going nowhere in the end as it was all retconned after wasting so much time on it.

[Darklazr]

7 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

As for #1, I honestly don't think Elizabeth Tulloch actually ever asked for Juliette to turn or to be the big bad.  I remember reading an interview with her done in, I think, season 3, which was probably the most, I don't know, revealing I've seen her to be regarding this show.  Basically, when she was hired K/G/C told her that Juliette would be a major character and such but it was frustrating in season 1 when she really didn't have anything to do.  Then she said something about how it took a while for them to figure out what Juliette should be doing, blah blah blah.  It really stuck out for me because Tulloch is--and I do not mean this in a negative way-- very good at conveying what the show wants her to.   She isn't one to speak out against her employers and she is very good at controlling an interview in a way where she can get out what TPTB wants her to get out, but not reveal any spoilers (I think Claire Coffee and Sasha Roiz are quite good at this, which is why so many of the interviews come from those 3 actors.  DG was good at it at one time, but I get the feeling that he has no more fucks to give and is willing to say what he feels--which is why we don't hear much from him anymore.  His last few interviews before cancellation was announced were, um, telling).  So, to see an article where she was even slightly critical of how her character was handled was telling--and the fact that she was basically saying that the show a) promised her something they couldn't delver and b) had no clue what to do with her.

I do think that Tulloch is professionally very smart.   Everything that I've heard indicates that she is very professional--she's always prepared, she's easy to work with, and she's willing to go the extra mile.  So, I don't think she was willing to go against whatever crazy ass thing TPTB threw at her on principle.  However, the fact that DG has made no secret of the fact that *he* was not happy about it, and given their off-screen relationship (and the fact that DG has, let's face it, a more vital role in the show) says quite a lot.  I also have to say that I admire the way Tulloch has handled herself with the "fans."  I follow her, and the rest of the cast, on Social Media and she's been treated quite poorly by a certain section of fans (to be fair, I think it is probably a pretty small number and I think that it might be even fewer people using multiple twitter and IG handles).  When I say poorly, I mean things like tweets and comments about how DG should leave her for someone else, how she should have died along with Juliette, how she is the most hated person on TV, and--I shit you not--how DG should leave her for CC (I'm sure Chris Thile loved that if he saw it...).  I'm not talking about characters here, I'm talking about the actors.  But she's handled it better than I think most humans could have in her position.  (Also, this is another--albeit catty and minor--reason why I'm willing to accept a Nick and Juliette/Eve reunion--just to piss those people off).

Anyway, off on a tangent--I don't think that we can say that the whole HexenJuliette/Eve thing happened at Tulloch's request.  Instead, I think it was some dumbass idea by the show runners and Tulloch handled it as best she could.

Now, as for Sasha Roiz--I don't blame him for wanting to be a villain.  Renard was a fascinating character in season 1.  And then, for 3 seasons, he was just..there. Renard should *always* have been a villain.  And, Renard is the sort of character that might or might not be able to survive without.  In other words, Roiz probably had some leverage that some of the other actors did not to give some sway about where his character went and why wouldn't he want Renard to have some substance?  Of course, this is all speculation on my part....he may have very well wanted Renard to be the good guy and TPTB decided against it (but I doubt it....)

For #2 - Yeah, that was some of the weakest story telling in a very weakly told story.  It made no sense and I really hope that other producers/networks take a good hard look at Grimm before offering K/G/C or some combination a new contract on anything.

I am not a fan of Juliette/ET, but there is no way that I would tweet crazy BS to her!

If the show had no clue on what to do with Juliette who was supposed to be a major character, then why not kill her off or let her leave town at the end of s1?  Why spend six plus years writing for Juliette when they could have eliminated the character until such time that they had some idea on her value to the show.

Renard as the bad guy (for me!) doesn't gel after he turned over Marie's key and no longer had any issues with Grimm Nick.  Yes, Renard had Royal and Resistance nonsense going on, but he and Nick had both moved on.  Now, we have a trumped up Renard vs Nick BS when we know BC was threatening everyone.

[OtterMommy]

43 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Renard as the bad guy (for me!) doesn't gel after he turned over Marie's key and no longer had any issues with Grimm Nick.  Yes, Renard had Royal and Resistance nonsense going on, but he and Nick had both moved on.  Now, we have a trumped up Renard vs Nick BS when we know BC was threatening everyone.

I don't disagree with you.  Where I'm coming from is that Renard should *always* have been the villain--maybe not in a way that all the characters knew it, but in a way that the audience knew it.  Having Renard all of a sudden being a villain now, after seasons 2-4, makes no sense.

[Free]

5 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I don't disagree with you.  Where I'm coming from is that Renard should *always* have been the villain--maybe not in a way that all the characters knew it, but in a way that the audience knew it.  Having Renard all of a sudden being a villain now, after seasons 2-4, makes no sense.

They shouldn't have wasted all that time on pointless Adalind/Juliette storylines, seriously, Renard spent most of his screen time on the phone talking throughout the series.

[ShadowFacts]

Renard is as messed up as Nick, Juliette and Adalind as far as character assassination and/or non-development or non sequitir.  Total bullshit.  Now he is on the side of the anarchic wesen, for no apparent reason than he's feeling his power-hungry side?  Nah, doesn't work. 

[Darklazr]

Happy New Year!

 Let's hope Grimm surprises us all with a well written story and characters acting in character.  I swear, I am sober!

[Prevailing Wind]

No you're not. You only think you're sober.  <hahahaha>

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Happy New Year!

 Let's hope Grimm surprises us all with a well written story and characters acting in character.  I swear, I am sober!

I'll drink to that!  (Drinking may be helpful when viewing the show.)

[spaulding]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 0:18 PM, OtterMommy said:

As for #1, I honestly don't think Elizabeth Tulloch actually ever asked for Juliette to turn or to be the big bad.  I remember reading an interview with her done in, I think, season 3, which was probably the most, I don't know, revealing I've seen her to be regarding this show.  Basically, when she was hired K/G/C told her that Juliette would be a major character and such but it was frustrating in season 1 when she really didn't have anything to do.

I read an interview with her saying that fans were asking her why her role was small (or why she didn't have anything to do in S1).  The interview was around the time that Juliette became the most powerful hexenbiest evah.  I also remember when she said that the evolution of Juliette was a collaboration with the writers. 

Her interviews are from her point of view.  I get it.  Her opinion, her bias, her viewpoint.  However, why are her interviews about how the fans are clamoring for more Juliette or how the writers want more Juliette or how the producers/showrunners want more Juliette?

After S1, I read interviews and info about the show.  I don't recall how Juliette was supposed to get a bigger part or to become a more integral part of the show.  I mean, the character was easily changed from a baker to a vet because she wasn't a fleshed-out character. 

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 10:40 AM, Darklazr said:

2) Don't write Momma Grimm surviving for two decades without Nick's knowledge and then turn around and write a half-ass story where she just walks willy nilly into his house.

I like Mama Grimm, so I'm OK with a stupid return-from-the-grave plot.  I would rather watch her doing her Grimm stuff than whatever else is happening on this show. 

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Renard is as messed up as Nick, Juliette and Adalind as far as character assassination and/or non-development or non sequitir.  Total bullshit.  Now he is on the side of the anarchic wesen, for no apparent reason than he's feeling his power-hungry side?  Nah, doesn't work. 

Yes!  Another example of how the writers boxed themselves into a corner.  Renard went from bad to grey to good.  Now, they're going to make him the bad guy for the final season.  No build-up; no long con. 

At least make him the last man standing--Forever Knight-style.  And as he leaves Portland, he turns around and looks at the city for the last time.  Shirtless Rage.  <fade to black> 

There's your ending, show.  You're welcome.

[I forgot that this show was returning on Friday.  I saw a full-page! ad in Entertainment Weekly to remind me.]

[neuromom]

If we are going to retcon all this crap, may I suggest that they bring back Sebastian? Thank you!

oh, hey, they can bring back Meisner too. Reveal that those two were working together to eliminate all the Royals...and Black Claw..and any other unnamed "groups" that WE haven't met yet. 

Oh, and I just remembered...Alexander actually escaped the massacre of the Wesen Council. They can bring him back too.

Sebastian, Meisner and Alexander. That will do it. Yea, I'm pretty "shallow" at this point - because the stories have no "depth". 

[Darklazr]

So, season 6 and episode 1 has Renard ordering Nick's death due to the massacre at the loft?!  WTF?  Where was all of this outrage by Renard when BC wiped out HW?  Where was Renard's outrage when JulietteEve wiped out BC when the gang was almost killed?  It really looks like this show is off the rails beginning with s6.  Sheesh.  What about all of the folks that were killed in order to rescue Monroe?

1 hour ago, neuromom said:

If we are going to retcon all this crap, may I suggest that they bring back Sebastian? Thank you!

oh, hey, they can bring back Meisner too. Reveal that those two were working together to eliminate all the Royals...and Black Claw..and any other unnamed "groups" that WE haven't met yet. 

Oh, and I just remembered...Alexander actually escaped the massacre of the Wesen Council. They can bring him back too.

Sebastian, Meisner and Alexander. That will do it. Yea, I'm pretty "shallow" at this point - because the stories have no "depth". 

Yes!  It would be wonderful if Sebastian, Meisner and Alexander all showed up in before the show went off the air!

11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Renard is as messed up as Nick, Juliette and Adalind as far as character assassination and/or non-development or non sequitir.  Total bullshit.  Now he is on the side of the anarchic wesen, for no apparent reason than he's feeling his power-hungry side?  Nah, doesn't work. 

I agree 100%.  Renard and the gang were almost slaughtered by BC and then JulietteEve saved their lives.  The Captain is now all in with BC because they returned Diana?  Really?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Darklazr

[Free]

3 hours ago, Darklazr said:

So, season 6 and episode 1 has Renard ordering Nick's death due to the massacre at the loft?!  WTF?  Where was all of this outrage by Renard when BC wiped out HW?  Where was Renard's outrage when JulietteEve wiped out BC when the gang was almost killed?  It really looks like this show is off the rails beginning with s6.  Sheesh.  What about all of the folks that were killed in order to rescue Monroe?

Yes!  It would be wonderful if Sebastian, Meisner and Alexander all showed up in before the show went off the air!

I agree 100%.  Renard and the gang were almost slaughtered by BC and then JulietteEve saved their lives.  The Captain is now all in with BC because they returned Diana?  Really?

I didn't think they could top suddenly turning Juliette into an hexenbiest only to totally retcon and whitewash all that away, but they certainly did with this Renard bs.

[OtterMommy]

7 hours ago, spaulding said:

I read an interview with her saying that fans were asking her why her role was small (or why she didn't have anything to do in S1).  The interview was around the time that Juliette became the most powerful hexenbiest evah.  I also remember when she said that the evolution of Juliette was a collaboration with the writers. 

Her interviews are from her point of view.  I get it.  Her opinion, her bias, her viewpoint.  However, why are her interviews about how the fans are clamoring for more Juliette or how the writers want more Juliette or how the producers/showrunners want more Juliette?

After S1, I read interviews and info about the show.  I don't recall how Juliette was supposed to get a bigger part or to become a more integral part of the show.  I mean, the character was easily changed from a baker to a vet because she wasn't a fleshed-out character. 

 

I do think that there was always a place in the show for Nick's Girlfriend--the writers just didn't know how to handle it.  You're right...the fact that they could drastically change the characters profession shows that they hadn't thought the part through (I would like to think that the move to change her from a baker to a vet would have meant that she would serve some sort of purpose to "the Grimm," but that obviously didn't happen).  As for the evolution of the character--who knows how much the writers on any show listen to the actors.  I do remember an interview with her right before the hexenbiest thing happened (like a week or so before) in which she was quite detailed about the fact that she was reading the scripts for season 4 and, while doing so, Bree Turner called her and asked if she got to whatever episode it was where Juliette first woged--ET hadn't and said that she was shocked when it happened.  I think just the amount of detail in that tells me it is more accurate than taking a "the evolution was a collaboration" statement and applying it broadly.  I'm not saying that she didn't collaborate with the writers in some way at some point but I don't think she was involved in the decision to turn Juliette into a hexenbiest.

Whenever I hear ET being blamed for Juliette's character, I just wonder why some are so quick to pin this on her, but no one wonders if Claire Coffee asked for Adalind to be redeemed and become Nick's lover.  Now, I am 99% sure that CC never did any such thing (in fact, judging from interviews before s5 began, it sounded like CC was not fond of the idea)--I just find it interesting that some would think that one actress would have such a pull and do such a thing but never question when another actress when, basically, the same thing happened to her character.

I think the more important thing with all this is that this show had two female characters--Juliette and Adalind--that the showrunners never knew how to handle.  Honestly, NEITHER of them were ever fleshed out....Juliette's character should not have been that hard and Adalind, well, Adalind was pretty much a mess from the moment she showed up.  She was a successful lawyer who....had no agency and completely did the bidding of her mother and her mother's (and her's!) lover.  She was one of the insufferable female characters that fall in love with every.single.male character who shows them any sort of kindness or gives them any sort of purpose.  And then, when they felt that wasn't bad enough, they kept knocking her up.  Add to that Trubel, for whom I'm still at a loss as to why she's even on this show.  These guys do not have a good track record with female characters....

So, when the success or failures of characters (not just the female ones) are discussed, I'm not sure why we blame the actors.  It is very clearly the writers and show runners who are the ones who are responsible.

(Also, I did post...somewhere else in this forum...about my realization that I had seen all the actors--except SWM--in other things and they were ALL better in those other roles, even if the roles and/or shows were much worse.  So, to be fair, I think we should toss a big chunk of blame at the directors as well...)

Edited January 2, 2017 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

16 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I do think that there was always a place in the show for Nick's Girlfriend--the writers just didn't know how to handle it.  You're right...the fact that they could drastically change the characters profession shows that they hadn't thought the part through (I would like to think that the move to change her from a baker to a vet would have meant that she would serve some sort of purpose to "the Grimm," but that obviously didn't happen).  As for the evolution of the character--who knows how much the writers on any show listen to the actors.  I do remember an interview with her right before the hexenbiest thing happened (like a week or so before) in which she was quite detailed about the fact that she was reading the scripts for season 4 and, while doing so, Bree Turner called her and asked if she got to whatever episode it was where Juliette first woged--ET hadn't and said that she was shocked when it happened.  I think just the amount of detail in that tells me it is more accurate than taking a "the evolution was a collaboration" statement and applying it broadly.  I'm not saying that she didn't collaborate with the writers in some way at some point but I don't think she was involved in the decision to turn Juliette into a hexenbiest.

Whenever I hear ET being blamed for Juliette's character, I just wonder why some are so quick to pin this on her, but no one wonders if Claire Coffee asked for Adalind to be redeemed and become Nick's lover.  Now, I am 99% sure that CC never did any such thing (in fact, judging from interviews before s5 began, it sounded like CC was not fond of the idea)--I just find it interesting that some would think that one actress would have such a pull and do such a thing but never question when another actress when, basically, the same thing happened to her character.

I think the more important thing with all this is that this show had two female characters--Juliette and Adalind--that the showrunners never knew how to handle.  Honestly, NEITHER of them were ever fleshed out....Juliette's character should not have been that hard and Adalind, well, Adalind was pretty much a mess from the moment she showed up.  She was a successful lawyer who....had no agency and completely did the bidding of her mother and her mother's (and her's!) lover.  She was one of the insufferable female characters that fall in love with every.single.male character who shows them any sort of kindness or gives them any sort of purpose.  And then, when they felt that wasn't bad enough, they kept knocking her up.  Add to that Trubel, for whom I'm still at a loss as to why she's even on this show.  These guys do not have a good track record with female characters....

So, when the success or failures of characters (not just the female ones) are discussed, I'm not sure why we blame the actors.  It is very clearly the writers and show runners who are the ones who are responsible.

(Also, I did post...somewhere else in this forum...about my realization that I had seen all the actors--except SWM--in other things and they were ALL better in those other roles, even if the roles and/or shows were much worse.  So, to be fair, I think we should toss a big chunk of blame at the directors as well...)

1) Juliette should have played a supporting role as Nick's girlfriend and nothing more, ever.  Or, the writers should have killed off the dead weight from the beginning and found someone new for Nick (not Adalind)!

2) We now know ET and DG are involved in real life and plan on getting married.  So, why wouldn't the show runners take into account the on and offscreen relationship between their lead and his girlfriend?  Juliette was suddenly given more power and was written to be more badass as the LEAD character of the show!  Would this have happened if not for the real relationship between the two actors?  Adalind should have always been a bad girl that on occasion may have done something nice, but not written as Mommy of the year!

3) It's way too late to get the show back that I fell in love with and will just ride out the last 13 episodes.   

[OtterMommy]

48 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

 

2) We now know ET and DG are involved in real life and plan on getting married.  So, why wouldn't the show runners take into account the on and offscreen relationship between their lead and his girlfriend?  Juliette was suddenly given more power and was written to be more badass as the LEAD character of the show!  Would this have happened if not for the real relationship between the two actors?  Adalind should have always been a bad girl that on occasion may have done something nice, but not written as Mommy of the year!

 

I don't agree with that.  I don't think the fact that two actors are involved would lead any showrunner--even these morons--to cater to a supporting actor.  Besides, even if they were willing to do that, it still makes no sense because DG (supposedly the lead of this show) was pretty vocal about NOT liking what they did with Juliette's role.  And, still, why would people so quickly jump to blame ET for this, when the show is nothing of a morass of problems caused by incapable writers and show runners?  Why blame *just* her?  Why not CC?  After all, basically the same thing happened to Adalind's character, but no one blames Claire Coffee (nor should they--as I said, I'm nearly positive she had nothing to do with this, just as I'm positive that ET had nothing to do with the decisions about Juliette's turn of character).

Let's put it like this....you're on the Titanic.  It is a ship that had serious structural flaws, put in service before it is ready (I think...am I remembering it right?  Just go with it for this metaphor...), and the people whose job it is to look for ice happen to miss the giant iceberg.  Who do you blame?  I know, let's blame the woman over there who spilled the ice cubes out of her drink...

[ShadowFacts]

My own personal reading-between-the-lines is not necessarily that Elizabeth held any special sway over the showrunners other than the fact that they may have just plain liked her.   Maybe one or more of them just took a shine to her, more so than say Claire Coffee.  I don't doubt that that happens on shows, because it certainly happens in other walks of life.  Or maybe they just thought it was a whiz-bang good idea to make the mild-mannered girlfriend into a superpowered biest.  But who knows with these people.  They do inexplicable things.  And not good ones. 

[OtterMommy]

40 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

My own personal reading-between-the-lines is not necessarily that Elizabeth held any special sway over the showrunners other than the fact that they may have just plain liked her.   Maybe one or more of them just took a shine to her, more so than say Claire Coffee.  I don't doubt that that happens on shows, because it certainly happens in other walks of life.  Or maybe they just thought it was a whiz-bang good idea to make the mild-mannered girlfriend into a superpowered biest.  But who knows with these people.  They do inexplicable things.  And not good ones. 

Yeah, I think something like that might have happened.  She is well-liked by the creative team, as is Claire Coffee (honestly, it seems like everyone likes everyone over there, which is a good thing!).

Personally, what I think is more likely is this:  The character of Juliette had been floundering because the writers and show runners never figured out what do with her (and, when an opportunity would arise, they would ignore it...).  There were a lot of comments towards the end of s3, on social media and articles and on podcasts, about how something had to be done with Juliette and Adalind.  I don't think anyone was advocating killing her (at least not in articles or on podcasts.  Social media is its own special cesspool), but that they both needed an actual purpose on the show.  Having Juliette be the girlfriend and Adalind running around getting pregnant and then misplacing her children wasn't enough.  Now, a skilled and capable creative team should have come up with something for both characters that worked with the fabric of the show and didn't, as I say, "break the contract" with the viewers.  Unfortunately, this show didn't have a skilled creative team.  Instead, they had a bunch of people who just wanted to go for shock factor--and we were left not only with HexenJuliette, but also the absurdly bad way they handled it.  As for Adalind, I truly believe that if Claire Coffee had not been pregnant, we would not have the rapemance.  Of course, I won't say that what they would have come up instead would be any better (hell, it might actually have been worse).

[Darklazr]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

My own personal reading-between-the-lines is not necessarily that Elizabeth held any special sway over the showrunners other than the fact that they may have just plain liked her.   Maybe one or more of them just took a shine to her, more so than say Claire Coffee.  I don't doubt that that happens on shows, because it certainly happens in other walks of life.  Or maybe they just thought it was a whiz-bang good idea to make the mild-mannered girlfriend into a superpowered biest.  But who knows with these people.  They do inexplicable things.  And not good ones. 

I am always skeptical when REAL life actors date their coworkers and suddenly a mediocre character is written more powerful than the lead on the show.  Heck.  I feel the same way in a work situation, when the boss is dating someone within a department and that person went from barely doing their job to a new higher position.

5 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Yeah, I think something like that might have happened.  She is well-liked by the creative team, as is Claire Coffee (honestly, it seems like everyone likes everyone over there, which is a good thing!).

Personally, what I think is more likely is this:  The character of Juliette had been floundering because the writers and show runners never figured out what do with her (and, when an opportunity would arise, they would ignore it...).  There were a lot of comments towards the end of s3, on social media and articles and on podcasts, about how something had to be done with Juliette and Adalind.  I don't think anyone was advocating killing her (at least not in articles or on podcasts.  Social media is its own special cesspool), but that they both needed an actual purpose on the show.  Having Juliette be the girlfriend and Adalind running around getting pregnant and then misplacing her children wasn't enough.  Now, a skilled and capable creative team should have come up with something for both characters that worked with the fabric of the show and didn't, as I say, "break the contract" with the viewers.  Unfortunately, this show didn't have a skilled creative team.  Instead, they had a bunch of people who just wanted to go for shock factor--and we were left not only with HexenJuliette, but also the absurdly bad way they handled it.  As for Adalind, I truly believe that if Claire Coffee had not been pregnant, we would not have the rapemance.  Of course, I won't say that what they would have come up instead would be any better (hell, it might actually have been worse).

I am sure the show runners like all of the actors or they would have been out of a job!  My point will always be how reel vs real life probably crept in when it came to Nick/Juliette and DG/ET.  I would be just as annoyed if Adalind/CC was suddenly top dog on Grimm instead of Nick/DG!

[OtterMommy]

58 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

I am always skeptical when REAL life actors date their coworkers and suddenly a mediocre character is written more powerful than the lead on the show.  Heck.  I feel the same way in a work situation, when the boss is dating someone within a department and that person went from barely doing their job to a new higher position.

I am sure the show runners like all of the actors or they would have been out of a job!  My point will always be how reel vs real life probably crept in when it came to Nick/Juliette and DG/ET.  I would be just as annoyed if Adalind/CC was suddenly top dog on Grimm instead of Nick/DG!

I'm not saying nepotism isn't a real thing...I just don't think it happened here (if it had been the case of an actress dating a show runner, I'd probably agree with you).  

Let's face it, the Juliette character assassination and the whole Eve thing, as badly as it was done and as big a detriment to the show as it is, is PERFECTLY in line with other crap the show runners pulled.  Honestly, we shouldn't be surprised by this and I'm positive it would have happened if the two actors were not involved.  Besides, if it really were a case of nepotism, why would they do something with Juliette's character that at least one half of the couple has said on more than one occasion that he did not like (he actually said it over and over again on twitter....)? If that's nepotism, that is the freaking strangest nepotism I've ever seen.

So, no....my vote is just ineptitude by the show runners, something that they've show us they suffer from over and over and over again.

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm not saying nepotism isn't a real thing...I just don't think it happened here (if it had been the case of an actress dating a show runner, I'd probably agree with you).  

Let's face it, the Juliette character assassination and the whole Eve thing, as badly as it was done and as big a detriment to the show as it is, is PERFECTLY in line with other crap the show runners pulled.  Honestly, we shouldn't be surprised by this and I'm positive it would have happened if the two actors were not involved.  Besides, if it really were a case of nepotism, why would they do something with Juliette's character that at least one half of the couple has said on more than one occasion that he did not like (he actually said it over and over again on twitter....)? If that's nepotism, that is the freaking strangest nepotism I've ever seen.

So, no....my vote is just ineptitude by the show runners, something that they've show us they suffer from over and over and over again.

Eh.  We will agree to disagree!  I never said the show runners were right to take Juliette from blah girlfriend to lead over the actual lead on the show, but they clearly made that choice or listened to input from the actress on her role on the show.  IF SR is asking to be the big bad in s6 and the writers make the choice to write shit, then I will not hesitate..lol... to point out it makes no sense in context of the last four years on the show.  

[icewolf]

Okay I'll admit I bought Grimm season 5 on dvd, but my excuse was that it on was Black Friday so it was only $10! Also I really enjoyed the finding the keys treasure two parter and the season finale!

All those Nadalind episodes can go straight to hell though!

Edited January 4, 2017 by icewolf

[Darklazr]

6 hours ago, icewolf said:

Okay I'll admit I bought Grimm season 5 on dvd, but my excuse was that it on was Black Friday so it was only $10! Also I really enjoyed the finding the keys treasure two parter and the season finale!

All those Nadalind episodes can go straight the hell though!

Yeah.  All of the scenes of Nick and Adalind living together...rme.. were stupid, AF.  CC just had a baby and they clearly wanted to give her time to heal and relax.  However, with all of the stuff that Viktor bought Adalind and her own money from working, you would think the best idea was to find the woman and baby an apartment!  Nick could have lived at the frome and Adalind had her own place, with the two finding a suitable nanny for not needed Kelly Jr.

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Yeah.  All of the scenes of Nick and Adalind living together...rme.. were stupid, AF.  CC just had a baby and they clearly wanted to give her time to heal and relax.  However, with all of the stuff that Viktor bought Adalind and her own money from working, you would think the best idea was to find the woman and baby an apartment!  Nick could have lived at the frome and Adalind had her own place, with the two finding a suitable nanny for not needed Kelly Jr.

That has always been one of the mysteries to me (I can't remember if I listed it in the plot holes).  Adalind was a successful lawyer in Portland, then she went to work for the royals, then she did a little running around but went back to living on the Royals dime.  So, why, exactly did Nick have to financially support her? She should have been rolling in the dough while he, a civil servant, was probably clearing about $50K a year.  

[Darklazr]

7 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

That has always been one of the mysteries to me (I can't remember if I listed it in the plot holes).  Adalind was a successful lawyer in Portland, then she went to work for the royals, then she did a little running around but went back to living on the Royals dime.  So, why, exactly did Nick have to financially support her? She should have been rolling in the dough while he, a civil servant, was probably clearing about $50K a year.  

What was the point of having Adalind stand at her mother's gravesite and talk about raising her children and then living off of Nick's largess?!  It made no sense at all.  Adalind and Nick should have shared joint custody of Kelly Jr. and lived at their own separate homes, without ANY hint of a romance.  I don't think Kelly Jr. was needed at all and it would have been more palpable if Nick and Adalind came to terms with parenting their son and agree to keep things civil.

[icewolf]

I'm still kind of shocked MonRosalee have managed to stay away from being infected by the As The Grim World Turns soap opera that has destroyed Nick and Adalind as characters.

The biggest drama they had was Monroe's parents reactions to the engagement and also there was the KKK Wesen hate group. I think what made it work was that all of those threats were external, and hopefully the next biggest problem they have will be Monroe accidentally buying the wrong baby formula.

[Darklazr]

21 hours ago, icewolf said:

I'm still kind of shocked MonRosalee have managed to stay away from being infected by the As The Grim World Turns soap opera that has destroyed Nick and Adalind as characters.

The biggest drama they had was Monroe's parents reactions to the engagement and also there was the KKK Wesen hate group. I think what made it work was that all of those threats were external, and hopefully the next biggest problem they have will be Monroe accidentally buying the wrong baby formula.

I love that MonRosalee is a mature relationship and one that the show did not eff over with cheating, lies and deceit.

[OtterMommy]

19 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

I love that MonRosalee is a mature relationship and one that the show did not eff over with cheating, lies and deceit.

Yet.

(No, I have no reason to believe that they will go down that road, other than K/G/C have 13 episodes and nothing left to ruin)

[Darklazr]

2 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Yet.

(No, I have no reason to believe that they will go down that road, other than K/G/C have 13 episodes and nothing left to ruin)

LOL.  Yes, the writers have 13 episodes to screw up a very popular couple on the show and the ONE thing that keeps me tuning in until the end. 

[jhlipton]

On 1/4/2017 at 10:33 PM, icewolf said:

{H}opefully the next biggest problem they have will be Monroe accidentally buying the wrong baby formula.

"Honey, I specifically told you we need the Fuchsbad formula and not the Blutbau one!"

[neuromom]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

"Honey, I specifically told you we need the Fuchsbad formula and not the Blutbau one!"

I'm kind of hoping to see Rosalee nursing her little "pups". I wonder if she will have twins (or multiples)?

[OtterMommy]

From the 6.01 thread:

You know, I was thinking about where this show went wrong, and I went back to the start, and I was sure it had something to do with the attempts at building a mythology, and than it hit me...what the hell has ever been the mythology? Even back in the day, when it was about the royals and the resistance and the Wessen council and the Grimms and all that shit, none of THAT was even explained well! Who were the royals anyway? Were the Wessen of some kind? It didn't seem like they were, so who or what were they? Magic humans? And what royal tree were they from anyway? Were they related to actual royal families in Europe that we know, or from some other family humans dont know about? What is their connection to Wessens? Who do they even rule anyway? Do they have dominion over anyone or anything at all, or are they just rich people who hire shady people to do shady things? Who are the resistance? Who or what are they resisting? What are their goals? What the the royals goals? Just to stay rich and powerful? So what does that mean? And how does the Wessen council fit into all this? And the Grimms? Who and what are they descended from? They tried to add in a bunch of this complicated Wessen political stuff as they went on, but they never really explained the stuff they started out with in the first place! And, if they ever did, or if it was explained in expanded material, it was never explained in the actual show! And pretty soon, it was all a convoluted mess that they never seemed to have escaped!

Oh, and Nicks romances have always been lame. Looking back at season one, I actually got nostalgic for original Nick/Juliette. They were kind of boring, but they seemed like a real, likable couple. It wasn't until they were turned into a melodramatic drama mess where Nick had to act dumb and Juliette had to became evil for no reason that they lost me. And N/A is just gross at worst, stupid and lame at best. I just cannot get over Adalind running around her romance novel mansion barefoot with her flowing nightgown jumping into Hero Nicks arms, as the perfect mom/eternal damsel in distress who has no bite whatsoever. Remember when she was a kind of cool villain? Those were good times. 

I agree that the problems that are such a mess now were present way back in season 1.  SciFi and Fantasy are not my go-to literary genres (although I have read both), but I do know that the first rule in writing in either of those genres, as well as the various subgenres, is to define the rules of your universe.  The "yeah, but that is about books, TV is different" argument doesn't apply here.  The first thing the morons in charge should have done when they conceived the idea for this show is to decide how that universe works.

I do have a lot of early season nostalgia (yes, I miss Nick and Juliette--and I'm fine being in the minority on that one).  I don't think Adalind was ever a cool villain, although I think she had the potential to be so.  Let's start here...why was she a villain?  Because she was a hexenbiest...fine, she should still be a villain.  Because she was indebted to Renard due to her mother's actions...her mother is dead, and died before a lot of the crap she pulled.  We did finally get some motivation for her--Nick took her powers--but that had nothing to do with what came before it and, damn it, it should still be a motivation, even if she got her powers back.  No, instead we get the worst female cliche possible--the damsel in distress who falls head over in heels in love with whatever man shows her any consideration...and I hear that it was at its worst in this episode (again, forwarded right past it....).

7 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

The problem goes even further back than that.   We brought this up in Season 1, it should have been the hugest red flag that ever flagged.   Juliette was originally going to be a baker.   The writers changed her profession to vet because Tulloch had a dog.   Yep.   that's the entire thought process that went into it.   No reason for why she should be a vet over a baker or even to develop a back story for her.   She was Nick's girlfriend because the script said so.  She was a vet because they said so. Hank had more of a back story with his 4 ex wives than we ever got on Juliette.

 

And this is another example of how stupid the show runners actually are.  Changing Juliette's profession from a baker to vet *can actually be beneficial to the show."  Now she has skills that apply to the wesen world.  But no, these idiots have to go, "heh heh.  She likes dogs."  It's almost (but not quite) as bad as when they laughingly told the press that they never knew what the keys were for, decided that they'd "reveal all" in the 100th episode, and then hoped the show would be canceled before 100 episodes so they wouldn't have to explain the plot element they introduced in the first episode.

While I really hope that all the members of the cast land improved jobs (or, in Hannah Lloyd's case, acting class), I also hope that no network gives Kouf, Greenwalt, or Carpenter another show...ever again.

[Darklazr]

4 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

From the 6.01 thread:

I agree that the problems that are such a mess now were present way back in season 1.  SciFi and Fantasy are not my go-to literary genres (although I have read both), but I do know that the first rule in writing in either of those genres, as well as the various subgenres, is to define the rules of your universe.  The "yeah, but that is about books, TV is different" argument doesn't apply here.  The first thing the morons in charge should have done when they conceived the idea for this show is to decide how that universe works.

I do have a lot of early season nostalgia (yes, I miss Nick and Juliette--and I'm fine being in the minority on that one).  I don't think Adalind was ever a cool villain, although I think she had the potential to be so.  Let's start here...why was she a villain?  Because she was a hexenbiest...fine, she should still be a villain.  Because she was indebted to Renard due to her mother's actions...her mother is dead, and died before a lot of the crap she pulled.  We did finally get some motivation for her--Nick took her powers--but that had nothing to do with what came before it and, damn it, it should still be a motivation, even if she got her powers back.  No, instead we get the worst female cliche possible--the damsel in distress who falls head over in heels in love with whatever man shows her any consideration...and I hear that it was at its worst in this episode (again, forwarded right past it....).

And this is another example of how stupid the show runners actually are.  Changing Juliette's profession from a baker to vet *can actually be beneficial to the show."  Now she has skills that apply to the wesen world.  But no, these idiots have to go, "heh heh.  She likes dogs."  It's almost (but not quite) as bad as when they laughingly told the press that they never knew what the keys were for, decided that they'd "reveal all" in the 100th episode, and then hoped the show would be canceled before 100 episodes so they wouldn't have to explain the plot element they introduced in the first episode.

While I really hope that all the members of the cast land improved jobs (or, in Hannah Lloyd's case, acting class), I also hope that no network gives Kouf, Greenwalt, or Carpenter another show...ever again.

Changing Juliette's profession meant squat when we never saw the vet with her own pets!  At least, I would think a vet would have pets!  Dog.  Cat.  Hamster.  Fish.  Sheesh.

Adalind should still be the bad girl doing heinous shit and not written as mother of the year.  

Edited January 10, 2017 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

29 minutes ago, Darklazr said:

Changing Juliette's profession meant squat when we never saw the vet with her own pets!  At least, I would think a vet would have pets!  Dog.  Cat.  Hamster.  Fish.  Sheesh.

Adalind should still be the bad girl doing heinous shit and not written as mother of the year.  

I didn't have a problem with Nick and Juliette not having pets....animals can be nightmares to work with and I don't blame the creative team for not wanting to open that can of worms.  Besides, any pet they would have had probably would have met a very messy end in that house and I really didn't want to see that.

Now, what I didn't like was the fact that they never, or at least very rarely, used Juliette's veterinary skills in Nick's wesen cases.  Every time there was an opportunity to do so, they cut to Rosalee (who already had plenty of plot real estate).  One more example of having a shining opportunity to do something and they just shut the door on it.

Yeah, I miss evil-for-no-real-reason Adalind....

Edited January 10, 2017 by OtterMommy

[withanaich]

Now, I love the fact that they brought Rosalee in, because I love Rosalee and Monrosalee and all of that ... but it's pretty stupid to have two characters with a similar skill set. I foolishly thought all this time that that's why they changed Juliette's profession, because they figured eventually she'd learn Nick's secret and they wanted her to be able to contribute instead of sitting around clock-watching and fretting over Her Hero (um, like Adalind does now). But I guess that was my fault for thinking like, you know, a professional writer and showrunner instead of a large child who somehow got handed the reins of a TV show.

I'm willing to forgive the fact that Juliette doesn't have pets because A) a lot of people don't bring their work home with them and B) like OtterMommy said, that house has been trashed too many times for me to be comfortable with a defenseless animal living there. (Which is why it's dumb to make pets or KIDS regular or featured characters on a show like this! Stupid, stupid, stupid. It ups the stakes at first but gets to be a drag, especially when the writers don't have a clue what they're doing or how to handle it.) But again, this is us thinking sensibly and giving the writers excuses they should have come up with themselves. They could have SAID that Juliette didn't want to bring her work home. They could have shown us that Nick is allergic (which might have amusing implications for his Grimm work as well.) Hell, they could have made the house a rental and said the landlord didn't allow pets. But the sad truth is, they probably forget at least 50-75% of the time what Juliette is supposed to do for a living. So in light of that, I guess it makes a terrible kind of sense that they created a new character with a similar skill set and then sidelined Juliette ... until they came up with another "bright" idea to throw at the wall. 

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, withanaich said:

I'm willing to forgive the fact that Juliette doesn't have pets because A) a lot of people don't bring their work home with them and B) like OtterMommy said, that house has been trashed too many times for me to be comfortable with a defenseless animal living there. (Which is why it's dumb to make pets or KIDS regular or featured characters on a show like this! Stupid, stupid, stupid. It ups the stakes at first but gets to be a drag, especially when the writers don't have a clue what they're doing or how to handle it.)

Babies usually quickly become wallpaper, but here they couldn't do that very easily.  Who are the parents going to be able to entrust this baby to?  They don't have family, Rosalee has her own business and now a baby on the way, and any other caregiver would never be able to protect this kid of a Grimm and a hexenbiest.  So they really painted Adalind into a corner.  The big cheesy pregnancy reveal in the precinct, "Nick, it's yours" really wasn't worth it. 

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, withanaich said:

Now, I love the fact that they brought Rosalee in, because I love Rosalee and Monrosalee and all of that ... but it's pretty stupid to have two characters with a similar skill set. I foolishly thought all this time that that's why they changed Juliette's profession, because they figured eventually she'd learn Nick's secret and they wanted her to be able to contribute instead of sitting around clock-watching and fretting over Her Hero (um, like Adalind does now). But I guess that was my fault for thinking like, you know, a professional writer and showrunner instead of a large child who somehow got handed the reins of a TV show.

 

And from the 6.01 thread:

Quote

Holy shit. And here my silly ass was thinking it was because Juliette was originally supposed to be the science-y character who could use her knowledge of creatures (mundane though they were) to figure out how to take down certain Wesen, but then when Rosalee came in, they had no idea what to do with Juliette anymore. But no. It's not a kinda-smart decision made by writers who could SEE they were perhaps painting themselves into a corner. It's more bullshit. I should've known.

Look, I like Rosalee, although not as much as I once did, partly because of the whole "Nick, you need to be responsible for the well-being of your rapist" crap AND for what I'm about to say.

I do think that the presence of Rosalee is one thing that really, really hurt the character of Juliette.  As I said, it seemed like whenever there was an opportunity for the show to loop Juliette in and let her use some of her vet skills, they cut over to Rosalee and let her character take over.  The thing is...it wasn't as if they were at loss for what else Rosalee could do: she was Wesen, she had a cute romance going with Monroe (although I have some issues with that--not with the romance, but with what they let it do to Monroe's character), her business was sort of central meeting place for Wesen, she was the liaison with the council, she knew Wesen folklore.  She didn't need to ALSO have the scientific knowledge that Juliette had.  And, it really would have benefited the show to have a non-Wesen come in with non-Wesen knowledge, to be applied to Wesen.  But no....

And, honestly, this all hurt Rosalee as well.  She is too knowledgeable and too capable.  She's basically a badly done Hermoine-rip off.  You know, the female character who has to stay in the background, but their abilities make the hero (who looks inept next to them) successful.

Here's another thing that really, really bugs me about this.  We have 3 female characters here: A lawyer, a vet, and a former junkie whose entire knowledge base seems to come from seeing things as a child that her father did.  Adalind and Juliette should not be stupid characters--by the nature of their professions, they are well educated (I've heard that it is harder to get into vet school than it is to get into medical school.  I'm not sure if that's true--the person who told me that was trying, unsuccessfully, to get into vet school) and they have to be analytical and quick thinkers.  Yet, the show made them both basically dummies.  There was all the crap Adalind would do, that ultimately just screwed herself (along with a few others) and Juliette simpering in the background and behaving in strangely stupid ways (I'm thinking back to season 3 where she had just learned about the whole Wesen thing and nearly blew everyone's cover when they were dealing with the tow guy who had been zombified; also when her friend showed up and Nick confided that the friend was Wesen, told Juliette not to say anything, and then she tells her friend, "I know your Wesen...but don't worry, Nick's a Grimm."  Ugh...).  But, then they have Rosalee--who I don't think needed to be stupid, but her backstory already told us that she wasn't formally educated AND she had a history of making bad decisions, be unusually smart about absolutely everything....  

Ugh...ranting again....I probably should never have started back with this show....

[TheGreenWave]

32 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I do think that the presence of Rosalee is one thing that really, really hurt the character of Juliette.  As I said, it seemed like whenever there was an opportunity for the show to loop Juliette in and let her use some of her vet skills, they cut over to Rosalee and let her character take over.

OMG I NEVER thought about that until you wrote it!  So true - after Rosalee took over the Spice Shop from Giles (oh whoops!) her brother, her character just made more sense to be the go-to that Nick needed for all things Wesen including background information (although this info could have been all provided by Monroe and/or the books) and Wesen-specific tips on how to defeat the WOTW (I mean, she did find the cure of the Death Grip in like 4 seconds under immense pressure in the right book without even looking at an index!! /snark) instead of whatever they planned to do story-wise with Juliette and her vet skills.  In order to keep her relevant, they had to have Juliette go through some ridiculous trials and tribulations for plot, rendering her a hindrance to Nick rather than an asset.

 

38 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

She is too knowledgeable and too capable.  

Agree (see amazing Death Grip cure finding ability above).  There wasn't a time when she (and Monroe) didn't find the fix.

[orza]

In theory Juliette could have done a lot of what Rosalee is doing. The main thing standing the way of that was Elizabeth Tulloch's lack of acting skills, which probably hurt the character of Juliette more than anything else. Bree Turner is a good actor and made her character very likable and relate-able. If the network had market research showing that Rosalee that is well-liked among viewers and Bree has a good Q score, then it probably told the writers to give her character a more prominent role. In general, networks tend to give prominence to actors and characters they think will draw viewers. A lot of casting and creative decisions are heavily influenced by what makes business sense to network executives.

[withanaich]

I'm not sure, because I've not really seen Bitsie (sorry, Elizabeth) Tulloch in anything else, but I don't know if we can compare apples to apples here. Of course, it helps that Bree Turner can actually act, but it doesn't hurt that they bothered to give Rosalee a personality, and a backstory, and a family life. And then they paired her with Monroe, and it seemed like a natural fit (even if that's probably more down to pure luck than planning on the part of the writers), so I think it was natural that a lot of people would like her.

Juliette, on the other hand? What do we know about her? She's a vet. And that was a last-minute, half-assed decision. We've seen a couple of instances of quick thinking (like her throwing boiling water on the siegbarste) and cleverness, but for the most part she hasn't had much to do or say, or at least not anything that couldn't have been done by another character. She existed to create tension when Nick was keeping his Grimmness a secret from her, and then they gave her that shitty soap opera amnesia plot, and it's kind of all been downhill from there. So it's hard to say that Tulloch is a terrible actor when she's been saddled with some real ridiculousness to work with.

I mean, look at Claire Coffee. She's a good actor, but we only know that because she was allowed to shine in the beginning of the series. If you'd only seen the last couple of seasons of Grimm, you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I'm not sure, because I've not really seen Bitsie (sorry, Elizabeth) Tulloch in anything else, but I don't know if we can compare apples to apples here. Of course, it helps that Bree Turner can actually act, but it doesn't hurt that they bothered to give Rosalee a personality, and a backstory, and a family life. And then they paired her with Monroe, and it seemed like a natural fit (even if that's probably more down to pure luck than planning on the part of the writers), so I think it was natural that a lot of people would like her.

Juliette, on the other hand? What do we know about her? She's a vet. And that was a last-minute, half-assed decision. We've seen a couple of instances of quick thinking (like her throwing boiling water on the siegbarste) and cleverness, but for the most part she hasn't had much to do or say, or at least not anything that couldn't have been done by another character. She existed to create tension when Nick was keeping his Grimmness a secret from her, and then they gave her that shitty soap opera amnesia plot, and it's kind of all been downhill from there. So it's hard to say that Tulloch is a terrible actor when she's been saddled with some real ridiculousness to work with.

I mean, look at Claire Coffee. She's a good actor, but we only know that because she was allowed to shine in the beginning of the series. If you'd only seen the last couple of seasons of Grimm, you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

I have seen Elizabeth Tulloch in a couple of other things and, just like every other actor in this show she is better in whatever else she does (except The Artist, although her entire role required her to stand between Jean DuJardin and a scene-stealing dog, so I don't think we can count that.  A coat rack could have played that role as well as she did-but I don't think the likes of Meryl Streep could have done much better).  With the exception of he child playing Diana, I can't say anyone on this show is a bad actor--they are just stuck with bad writing and direction.

You are right...Rosalee as a character was given things that Juliette as a character (or Nick as a character) was not, which made them more interesting.  All we know about Juliette's past is that she spent some time with her Grandmother in Spain as a child.  All we know about Nick's character is that his parents "died" and then he moved around a lot with his Librarian Aunt*.  Yet, with Rosalee, we know almost her entire life story AND have met her family.  So, saying that Rosalee is more compelling just because of the actress is not really fair.  I'm not knocking Bree Turner's acting, and I'm not saying she's *not* a good actress.  What I'm saying is when a character is fully crafted, it is not only easier to play, but easier for the audience to empathize with.

*Librarian Aunt who moved around a lot is stupid.  Librarians do not move around a lot.  Jeez. 

[Free]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I have seen Elizabeth Tulloch in a couple of other things and, just like every other actor in this show she is better in whatever else she does (except The Artist, although her entire role required her to stand between Jean DuJardin and a scene-stealing dog, so I don't think we can count that.  A coat rack could have played that role as well as she did-but I don't think the likes of Meryl Streep could have done much better).  With the exception of he child playing Diana, I can't say anyone on this show is a bad actor--they are just stuck with bad writing and direction.

You are right...Rosalee as a character was given things that Juliette as a character (or Nick as a character) was not, which made them more interesting.  All we know about Juliette's past is that she spent some time with her Grandmother in Spain as a child.  All we know about Nick's character is that his parents "died" and then he moved around a lot with his Librarian Aunt*.  Yet, with Rosalee, we know almost her entire life story AND have met her family.  So, saying that Rosalee is more compelling just because of the actress is not really fair.  I'm not knocking Bree Turner's acting, and I'm not saying she's *not* a good actress.  What I'm saying is when a character is fully crafted, it is not only easier to play, but easier for the audience to empathize with.

*Librarian Aunt who moved around a lot is stupid.  Librarians do not move around a lot.  Jeez. 

The useless Hexenbiest drama only made her character worse.

[Darklazr]

5 hours ago, orza said:

In theory Juliette could have done a lot of what Rosalee is doing. The main thing standing the way of that was Elizabeth Tulloch's lack of acting skills, which probably hurt the character of Juliette more than anything else. Bree Turner is a good actor and made her character very likable and relate-able. If the network had market research showing that Rosalee that is well-liked among viewers and Bree has a good Q score, then it probably told the writers to give her character a more prominent role. In general, networks tend to give prominence to actors and characters they think will draw viewers. A lot of casting and creative decisions are heavily influenced by what makes business sense to network executives.

Rosalie did not show up until s1, ep15 which was plenty of time for the show runners and network to realize that there were major issues with Juliette.  

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, Darklazr said:

Rosalie did not show up until s1, ep15 which was plenty of time for the show runners and network to realize that there were major issues with Juliette.  

True, and the problems with Juliette's character were present before 1.15,  

I'm not going to blame acting on this--I guess I see ET's performance differently and, other than a few cringe-worthily written scenes in late season 4, I've never had a problem with her acting (or at least something that I'd blame on acting.  There were plenty of problems with the writing and directing which can look like bad acting).  The problems with Juliette's character have little to nothing to do with Elizabeth Tulloch.

[Darklazr]

3 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

True, and the problems with Juliette's character were present before 1.15,  

I'm not going to blame acting on this--I guess I see ET's performance differently and, other than a few cringe-worthily written scenes in late season 4, I've never had a problem with her acting (or at least something that I'd blame on acting.  There were plenty of problems with the writing and directing which can look like bad acting).  The problems with Juliette's character have little to nothing to do with Elizabeth Tulloch.

We will agree to disagree.  There are plenty of actors that have turned shit into gold.