Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[Curio]

And honestly, I wouldn't mind if Emma and Killian went to find the kid and welcomed him as part of their ragtag family. 

 

I said it as a joke at first, but you know, the more I think about it... the more I'm warming up to the idea. Instead of Hook pulling a Regina and gleefully rubbing it in the kid's face that he murdered his father or whisking his step sibling away in a tornado, Hook could actually try to set things right by becoming a father figure to the poor kid. With Killian and Emma both being orphans, I think they'd both feel a huge draw to want to give Liam 2.0 loving parents. (That is, if Liam 2.0 is still in foster care or isn't 30-something years old.) Hook would also be taking on the role his own older brother Liam had when they were growing up. Liam was Killian's older brother, but the way Hook talks about him, he was also his best friend and a father figure who helped raise Killian, so Hook could now do the same for his own step brother.

 

With all this said, they'll probably forget Hook even has a step brother and only mention in passing that Liam 2.0 died from an ogre attack in the Enchanted Forest or something, just to give Hook even more unneeded angst.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[Faemonic]

I propose we name Liam 2.0 Willy, the other short version of William.

I honesty wouldn't be shocked if "Inigo" avoided the curses and showed up to get revenge on the man who killed his father as a 30 somethin' yr-old. And yes, I'm trying out different names, because typing Liam 2.0 creeps me out more than Baby Neal somehow.

Vengeful curse-dodging runs in the family, so yes, I would like that to happen. Unless Blackbeard is Killian's long-lost half brother who's younger by more than a century, but looks older and has developed a...less refined sense of humor.

 

I still can't believe he has another brother named Liam. So much WTF......

My poor Killy. 

Maybe Mama Jones was allowed to pick the name of their second baby, and Papa Jones was all, "'Killian'? How the hell do you say that. This is going to be my least favorite kid of all time ever."

[mjgchick]

Papa Jones deserved to die. I just hope Hook gave that kid a nice home. Hooks temper really lets him forget that his calateral damages hurt those he cares for. Look at what he did with Ursula. He bonded with her and was willing to let her escape her father but when Poseidon threatened him he quickly forgotten about that. He did the same with Emma and her family except Emma's love reminded him of the man he's always wanted to be.

Now we'll have to worry about him wondering if he's enough for Emma after what he did. Or maybe he'll be so angry with Rumples betrayal that he'll want to get back but this time have him and Emma work together?

[didia]

I really liked that Killian had a lot more visibility in 4A than he had in other seasons, specially 4B. I enjoyed to see how supportive he was with Emma. He was perfect until he turned into the Dark One. I do believe it would be more satisfying to see a bit more of struggle, but we can easily fanwank it, saying he was physically and mentally/emotionally too weak to resist all the darkness ( plus the one he already has), and went temporarily insane. At some points I got the vibe Nimue was a queen Bee, and Hook was a worker  doing his job. I'm not sure how in control "real" Killian was. I think we needed more scenes to understand how the darkness affected him. All I know is that it feeds in the insecurities/weakness of the host, but Colin played it like Hook was "high", with unfocused eyes, like ina trance.

 

We all know the flashback poked holes in the previous timeline, but I think it actually made sense. I think it is one information that made previous scenes make sense, like you guys always talk. Liam and Killian were basically sold as slaves/servants by their own father, and somehow were capable to overcome this and rise to high ranks in the Navy together. I think it is safe to say Liam protected Killian. Hook believed they could be able to do everything they wanted together, as long as he had Liam by his side. It makes his loss even more heartbreaking. Killian really lost everything when he died. I didn't have a problem with him turning into a pirate because it made sense to me: the king would be unhappy if they came back without the dreamshade (would probably try to kill them) and Liam was the one with the connections to possibly oppose the king. Now, I believe Killian didn't think he could make it alone.

 

His terrible (and tragic) relationship with his father would explain why he tried so hard to convince Emma to forgive her parents. It explains why he hates to be controlled so much (everyone should hate it, but we have other characters that didn't react so strongly).

 

I must say that name other kid "liam" was terrible, Hook's father sucks. My vote goes to "willy" by the way. :-)

[HoodlumSheep]

I propose we name Liam 2.0 Willy, the other short version of William.

Vengeful curse-dodging runs in the family, so yes, I would like that to happen. Unless Blackbeard is Killian's long-lost half brother who's younger by more than a century, but looks older and has developed a...less refined sense of humor.

Don't tempt me with that theory...must...resist!

Maybe Willy's middle name will end up as David, and he goes by "Davy" instead? Or Papa Hook could still have a brother named Davy, or Papa Hook's own middle could be Davy. Then technically they could still do Davy Jones.

A day later, and I still shiver from Papa Jones naming his third kid Liam. Bleh. Ick. I never thought they could do worse than Baby Neal, but they've managed to outdo themselves.

"Liam Killian Jones, I named you after my two kids whom I sold into servitude for a row boat..."

[YaddaYadda]

I know the timeline on this show is wonky at best, but 2.0 being Blackbeard doesn't fit since we got the whole time travel adventure.

 

I think he's living in Storybrooke, because he was likely taken there by the curse.

 

I knew Hook and Emma were kindred spirits, but I had no idea just how far this went. Her parents name her brother after her dead ex-boyfriend, his father names his half-brother after a child he basically threw away.

 

I'm not remotely sorry he's dead, but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen the last of him. Send Hook to the UW, Rumple and Regina aren't the only ones who will have the things they did come back and bite them in the ass.

[mjgchick]

I had a nightmare that Arthur could be young Liam.

I'll go hide now.

[Curio]

I had a nightmare that Arthur could be young Liam.

 

So that's why they look so alike...

 

Actually, you might be onto something. Arthur is the "orphan king"... we just have to twist the timeline a lot. And the names. And the logic.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

We just have to twist the timeline a lot. And the names. And the logic.

But, since it's TS, TW, it's completely possible.  

[Shanna Marie]

Actually, you might be onto something. Arthur is the "orphan king"... we just have to twist the timeline a lot. And the names. And the logic.

Well, who's to say how long Brennan was out of his sleeping curse and how far around he got in the meantime. There could have been an older little brother out there.

 

Ever since the end of season two, I've wondered how true what Hook told Bae about his past was, and since he conveniently edited out the existence of an older brother in his story of abandonment, I've wondered what else he might have left out. And now we find out that instead of editing it to make his situation sound worse and more like Bae's, he left out the really awful part. It would have been bad enough for a kid to be left alone in the world, even with a big brother at hand. But being sold into servitude is just terrible, especially since that captain looked like a nasty piece of work. It's probably safe to say that those boys were treated with what we'd consider abuse and what that life would consider "harsh shipboard discipline." Which could explain a lot of Killian's worship of Liam, if Liam tried to take the brunt of it and protected his little brother as well as he could. Hmm, could Killian's facial scar have come from something to do with that phase in his life?

 

I suppose the boat kind of explains why a father didn't take his sons with him when he fled. I've wondered about that and why he couldn't have tried to evade capture with his kids with him. But damn, that's cold, not just leaving the kids behind but trading them so he could make his own escape. He must have been up against something really bad, considering the punishment when they caught him was a sleeping curse. So, what did he do?

 

And it explains just why Hook is as damaged as he is. So, what happened to Mama Hook that useless excuse for a Papa Hook had the boys in tow? At least the younger one seems to have had no idea that his dad was a criminal, though there's no way of knowing yet if Liam had any idea and was protecting his brother from the truth or if he was equally in the dark.

[Randomosity]

Either that, or Liam 2.0 is getting sucked into a wormhole, ages to 30ish, and then returns as the big bad of season 6, seeking revenge on the man who killed his father.

 

My name is Liam Jones; you killed my father. Prepare to die... I think little Liam grew up to be Inigo Montoya.

 

So, what happened to Mama Hook that useless excuse for a Papa Hook had the boys in tow?

 

This is actually what I came here to ask. Is there canon information, even a throwaway line, about what happened to Hook's mother?

[YaddaYadda]

This is actually what I came here to ask. Is there canon information, even a throwaway line, about what happened to Hook's mother?

 

She was never mentioned.

[Faemonic]

Which could explain a lot of Killian's worship of Liam, if Liam tried to take the brunt of it and protected his little brother as well as he could. Hmm, could Killian's facial scar have come from something to do with that phase in his life?

Liam wasn't that much older than Killian, either. For Liam to have grown up so well-adjusted after that, L must have been a saint! Except for the possible nepotism that came up later on, and apparently his stubbornness was David Nolan levels. I'd make a character thread, but Liam I has only been in two episodes.

[Shanna Marie]

Liam wasn't that much older than Killian, either.

Eh, I wouldn't put much stock in what they showed there. They conveniently kept Liam totally asleep and mostly under a blanket, probably in part so they wouldn't have to pay the actor to say a line, but also possibly in part because that keeps them from having to have made a definitive casting decision for that character. He didn't speak and was barely visible, so they're free to recast and pick precisely the actor they want in the event they do further flashbacks from that era and actually use Liam as a character. That's when we'll have a better sense of the age difference.

 

Heck, I'm not even sure what age Killian was supposed to be. They generally try to cast slightly older with kids because older kids are easier to deal with. He could have been anywhere from six to maybe nine or ten, which means Liam could have been meant to be ten to twelve or so -- not much of a difference if Killian was supposed to be nine or ten, but a big difference if Killian was meant to be six or seven. I would hope you wouldn't have a child older than eight needing to be reassured with a light kept on during the night.

 

Funny thing about the casting for wee Killian: some time ago, either here or back at TWOP, I mentioned that a kid I used to have in my choir would have made great casting for a young Killian. Well, the kid they did cast could practically be that kid's twin, except he has slightly lighter hair than the one I know. But very similar face structure, and even that sprinkling of freckles. The kid I know is about 8-9 now, but he's little, so he could easily play as young as 6.

[Dianthus]

Souris, on 07 Dec 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

You know what story I want to see but the show will never do? How Killian & Liam 1.0 worked their way from servitude to officers in the Royal Navy. That sounds like it would be a great story!

You're not alone there. Most of the questions I have after the finale aren't about what's coming up (maybe cuz I'm spoiled). Rather than being sated, the flashbacks only served to whet my appetite for the further adventures of the Jones boys. How long were they on the S.S Whatever? What were their duties? How did Killian discover an aptitude for advanced mathematics? How in the ever-loving fck did they go from forced child labor to officers in a royal navy?

Maybe their ship was lost in a storm or an attack, and they were among the survivors (the only survivors?) rescued by a naval vessel? It kills me that we'll probably never really know.

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe their ship was lost in a storm or an attack, and they were among the survivors (the only survivors?) rescued by a naval vessel? It kills me that we'll probably never really know.

That's my current headcanon. They get treated like dirt, Killyian gets his scar from being smacked by the captain or somethin', a storm comes, whole crew dies, Hook and Liam survive and get picked up by....wait for it...Captain Smollett. Being the fair, competent captain he is, he sees the potential in Liam and Killian and they become cabin boys on his ship and work their way up fom there.

My question is, how long do you think Killian and Liam were in servitude with the bad captain? Possible shipwrecking could have made it shorter, but I'll guess a couple years at least.

Oliver Bell is listed as 10 on WGN America, but I don't know if they update it every year, so he's either 10 or 11 because Salem started in 2014.

So we can probably just assume young Killy was around 10ish if his and the actor's ages match up.

Edited December 8, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[mjgchick]

So the deleted script of Hook telling Emma about his father now makes sense. I think Jen said Hook and Emma probably talked about his father just offscreen (Along with every other awesome moment.) so now I get why Adam and Eddy decided to save it for this storyline. It was nice to see more background of Killian. It makes total sense why Killian wanted to help Ursula get away from her father. He treated her like a weapon and she wasn't happy so Killian bonded with her over that. Also it toally makes sense why he was so mad at Emma for using the sword and why he hated it when Regina was doing it to Emma.

 

Character development can be a good thing on this show after all.

[Dianthus]

I've actually been working up a new head canon during my travel time between jobs today, in an effort to make it all a little less awful. I figure just cuz the captain is a crotchety old git (and as tightfisted a skinflint as you'll ever find), not everyone on board is equally as bad. Liam, as the older, taller, stronger boy, makes a better candidate for deckhand than little Killian. So, what if the Quartermaster (who's is not without some kindness) took charge of him (by leave of the Captain, 'natch). That would keep him mostly below decks and out of the captain's way. Killian would learn a lot, and a budding aptitude for mathematics might get some notice. The Quartermaster takes him to the ship's Navigator, and he goes on from there. The down side is that the boys get locked up in the hold (NOT chained) whenever the ship is in port, to protect the captain's investment.

I am absolutely convinced that good people, at various points in their lives, had to intervene on the boys' behalf for them to make the leap they had to make. They came out of it without being overly traumatized, and they distinguished themselves in service.  

[Camera One]

The next port of call was where Killian and Liam met Pocahontas.  Just stay tuned for Season 9.

[Shanna Marie]

They came out of it without being overly traumatized, and they distinguished themselves in service.

I don't know, I think Killian was seriously damaged. He may have managed to hold it together well enough to distinguish himself and live a decent life while he had the support of his brother, but an emotionally healthy person doesn't snap to the degree he did after a loss. Even Regina had a more gradual downward slide, with lots of downward nudges by Rumple. Killian just totally gave up on trying to be good. It was like life lost all meaning to him after his brother's death and he completely changed personalities.

 

It can't have been good for his psyche or self image that immediately after he declared that he wanted to be just like his father, he learned that his father was a criminal and a scoundrel who was willing to sell his children to save his own skin. Did that make him wonder if he was the same way, or even believe that's what he really was, so that's what he became? If that's the way he sees himself, then it would explain why he slid so quickly into Darkness without fighting. It's like somewhere deep down inside he internalized the idea that he was a bad person, like his father. He talks about how good Liam was, so did he decide that Liam was the "good" one and he was the "bad" one? Did he feel on some level that he was doomed to take after his awful father, so why fight it?

[Dianthus]

I can totally hear the captain saying something along the lines of "Your own sorry excuse for a father didn't care about what becomes of you, so don't expect anyone else to give a bloody damn."

I didn't say he came out of it completely unscathed either. My point is that the boys presumably found a positive male role model somewhere along the way. Someone who had the pull to help them better their circumstances. Again, I doubt A & E put that much thought (if any) into how hard that would be for two orphans with no money or connections.

As for Regina's slide vs. Killian's, A & E have put Regina's life under a bloody microscope, so maybe it just seems more gradual. Turning pirate was commandeering a ship on the open sea. He said they'd drop off any sailors who didn't want to be pirates at the next port. He took passengers, so we know he didn't rely solely on piracy to pay the bills. I don't think he really went that dark 'til Rumple went all Crocodile on his ass.

[Shanna Marie]

As for Regina's slide vs. Killian's, A & E have put Regina's life under a bloody microscope, so maybe it just seems more gradual. Turning pirate was commandeering a ship on the open sea. He said they'd drop off any sailors who didn't want to be pirates at the next port. He took passengers, so we know he didn't rely solely on piracy to pay the bills. I don't think he really went that dark 'til Rumple went all Crocodile on his ass.

He was pretty nasty when he first ran into Rumple, but I guess it depends on how you draw the line between "bad," "evil," and "dark." His reverse upon Liam's death was pretty drastic. He was the rational one in Neverland, taking the, "Maybe we'd better listen to the person who's from around here and consider the implications if it is true -- if it's real, that means the king is plotting genocide, and can we fight for someone like that?" approach, while Liam was more like, "Of course the king is right, and I'll prove it by stabbing myself with the plant!" But then after Liam's death, Killian went straight to throwing his uniform overboard and torching the Pegasus sail (boy, would that have come in handy later), then declaring war on anyone fighting for that king. No considering whether the king actually knew about the poison or if maybe someone else with an agenda had given him the bad information, no plan to spread the word about the king's duplicity and maybe work together to bring him down, just flat-out giving no quarter to anyone serving that king. That's more pure revenge than justice, and revenge is pretty dark. He doesn't seem to have gone through the initial phase like Regina, where she fantasized about revenge against Snow and then was horrified at her fantasy.

 

By the time we see him again, the teetotaling "rules are rules" naval officer is guzzling rum and taking up with a married woman and bullying her crippled husband. He seems a bit better later after he's been with Milah for a while, whether because of maturing or because she was a good influence, then went over the edge again after her death.

 

One of his issues may be that he's the kind of person who needs someone else in his life to help him maintain a good course, which could make sense if he doesn't trust his own moral compass after being so deceived about the kind of man his father was. While Liam was around, he stayed on the straight and narrow and was doing well, but as soon as he lost Liam he was lost. He seems to have improved some with Milah in his life, but then fell after losing her. He met Emma and even before they were in any kind of relationship, he started doing better. It's like he needs a positive example to remind him of what is good, but he seems to have overcome that finally in finding it in himself.

 

I can imagine that the thing with his father did a number on his psyche. It wasn't just a case of growing up and then realizing his father was a flawed human being. He went straight from admiring his father and deciding that this was the kind of man he wanted to be to being utterly betrayed by a father who turned out to be so crooked that he not only had the authorities after him, but also was willing to sell his own children in order to escape. That's bound to drill in the message that he's a bad judge of right and wrong, and maybe he actually is just like his father.

 

On another note, one other reason the retcon about meeting and killing his father doesn't work for me is that it was a big revelation to him that he thought he'd killed Rumple but realized his revenge didn't change anything, didn't make anything better. But how does that work if he's already managed to get revenge on his father for abandoning him and didn't have that realization? Or was that blurred because killing his father was part of getting revenge on Rumple, so he brushed off the sense that it didn't make things better since he still didn't have his primary revenge?

[YaddaYadda]

On another note, one other reason the retcon about meeting and killing his father doesn't work for me is that it was a big revelation to him that he thought he'd killed Rumple but realized his revenge didn't change anything, didn't make anything better. But how does that work if he's already managed to get revenge on his father for abandoning him and didn't have that realization? Or was that blurred because killing his father was part of getting revenge on Rumple, so he brushed off the sense that it didn't make things better since he still didn't have his primary revenge?

 

He never set out to get revenge on his father, or anything like that though.

 

Even when he found out he had a son, he made two letters to facilitate their passage somewhere else. So he didn't set out to hurt anyone. What set him off was that his father named his new son Liam. And even then, I really question how much of it was revenge killing as opposed to him feeling enraged by what he'd just heard.

 

He said he and his father had already lost too much after he told him that very dubious TLK story. Even after he found out he had another kid, he was hurt, but he took it in strides.

 

When he stabs his father, Hook comes completely undone for like a minute, right before he releases him, and shoved him to the ground.

[Dianthus]

Shanna Marie, I kinda feel like we're talking at cross-purposes here. With my initial post, I was trying to make the idea of two young boys traded into servitude by their own father seem a little less horrid. Whatever psychological issues resulted from such a terrible act of betrayal, it seems to me that both of them grew up to be good and honorable men, idealistic and (especially in Liam's case) somewhat naive. This suggests to me that a more positive male role model/father figure entered their lives at some point, as well as the bettering of their circumstances. Hook's attitude towards Bae and Henry are also suggestive. While he had/has a personal connection to both (through their mothers), it's entirely possible that he knows first-hand just how important such a positive influence can be in a young boy's life. I certainly don't see wee Killian as some kind of bad seed or troublemaker, who needs someone else to keep him on the up-and-up.  

A desire for revenge has been a large part of his characterization, however, I'll grant you that. He couldn't get revenge on his father, not for a long time, but turning pirate against the king (and those serving him) who cost him the only family he (thought) he had left, was the first step down a slippery slope. Even with Rumple, he mentioned his code, so I don't think he had yet completely abandoned his principles. I think it's the realization of just how far he'd fallen that really comes back to haunt him. That, and Liam died an honorable man, so Hook has had him on a pedestal ever since.

[InsertWordHere]

Even when he found out he had a son, he made two letters to facilitate their passage somewhere else. So he didn't set out to hurt anyone. What set him off was that his father named his new son Liam. And even then, I really question how much of it was revenge killing as opposed to him feeling enraged by what he'd just heard.

It was Regina who wanted him to kill his father, even though she never expressly says it onscreen. So he did know going into it that this is what Regina wanted him to do. He even says that helping his father is not worth losing his chance at revenge (which Regina was lying to him about) right before he kills him. I can't decide if it makes him better or worse that he was willing to go against her until he realized his father had replaced Liam. This is similar to the pattern in most of Hook's flashbacks. He was willing to take in Bae and be a family with him until Bae rejected him and Felix forced his hand. He was willing to tell Ursula her father's plans and steal the squid ink until her father took the squid ink away. He was willing to help those people and get his revenge until the means to getting his revenge was threatened. 

[YaddaYadda]

Back in the day Hook always started with good intentions, because deep down, that's who he really is, before he just decided to fuck this, I'm my worst self, and I will get my revenge.

 

I guess this is where he's different now. He started out in a bad place for 2 episodes, before he snapped out of it, and decided that this really wasn't who he wanted to be.

 

I've been wondering now if the show isn't just going to draw comparisons between Hook, and Rumple. Hook as the Dark One decided that he wanted to be better, that this isn't who he was, while Rumple with a brand new heart decided that his new condition isn't who he is.

 

I think it's inevitable at this point. There were always comparisons between the two, but there's no doubt as to who the better man is.

[Rumsy4]

Oh definitely! In Storybrooke, Rumple's immediate acceptance of his own heriosm and goodness rang false. He kept preening about how he was a changed man and a true hero and how easily he would defeat the Dark Swan. It was all too much like his AU persona of "Light One". It was feeding his ego and helping him indulge in the fantasy of being heroic and good in Belle's eyes.

The minute his power was threatened in the AU, Rumple's core personality came through. The same thing happened in Storybrooke as well. The minute he could get his power back, he went for it, even at the cost of other people.

This is clearly meant to contrast with the fact that Hook gave up his power when he realized that he was hurting others, even at the cost to himself. He was extremely fearful of giving in to Darkness that he preferred to die than become the DO.

This trip to the Underworld and back is likely to be symbolical to the evolution of both men. Hook entered as a reformed villian trying to expiate his crimes, and will emerge a hero, someone who defeated the Darkness within. Rumple enters the UW as a blank slate hero backsliding into villainy, and will be confirmed in his ultimate Dark One status on his return.

[YaddaYadda]

I can see Hook losing his shit when he finds out Rumple is back to being the Dark One.

[Curio]

I can see Hook losing his shit when he finds out Rumple is back to being the Dark One.

 

I feel like Hook will be more pissed off about the fact that Rumple was willing to let Emma kill herself again just so he could gain more power.

[Faemonic]

I can't decide if it makes him better or worse that he was willing to go against her until he realized his father had replaced Liam. This is similar to the pattern in most of Hook's flashbacks. He was willing to take in Bae and be a family with him until Bae rejected him and Felix forced his hand. He was willing to tell Ursula her father's plans and steal the squid ink until her father took the squid ink away. He was willing to help those people and get his revenge until the means to getting his revenge was threatened. 

Hook's vengeance was pretty much his priority. With Ursula, totally a douche move, but they had basically just met and she'd spared his life during Pan's grocery run for her own reasons so I guess he really just owed her a drink. With Bae, totally a douche move, and he'd gotten some weird filter on that he kept referring to Bae as "the Dark One's son" until he got a reminder that Bae was Milah's son...and then did the thing anyway. Could still rationalize that Fairy Tale Land hasn't had good rolemodels for stepfathers since the Grimm brothers censored their compilations.

 

With Papa Jones, I was just like, "What." Because of two things, first, that Papa Jones created an earlier trauma, so I wonder that wouldn't re-prioritize Hook's vengeancing over dead girlfriend's husband. Unlike Ursula or Bae, Papa Jones was closer. Secondly, I think the big thing about murder on this show is that you never really know what good could have come of letting a scoundrel live. Maybe Papa Jones truly did name Willy in honor of both his sons (somehow? still makes no sense to me and vaguely creeps me out), and they could have seen Dr. Hopper about that twice weekly for twenty-eight years if only Hook had decided not to do the thing. Now that Papa Jones is murdered, we can never know, and on this show that makes it the absolute worst thing in the world for anybody to have done, no matter what got Hook to swing from "contemplatively merciful" to "murderous" because usually people have some in-between! (Hook should definitely see Archie anyway about his imbalanced and volatile personality.)

 

At least out-of-show we can agree that murder-stabbing is much ruder than the betrayals of Bae and Ursula

 

I guess this is where he's different now. He started out in a bad place for 2 episodes, before he snapped out of it, and decided that this really wasn't who he wanted to be. I've been wondering now if the show isn't just going to draw comparisons between Hook, and Rumple. Hook as the Dark One decided that he wanted to be better, that this isn't who he was, while Rumple with a brand new heart decided that his new condition isn't who he is. I think it's inevitable at this point. There were always comparisons between the two, but there's no doubt as to who the better man is.

The thing is, if Hook could just decide what kind of man he wanted to be...then the Darkness wasn't thinging? I don't know. It took the Dark One vault to get him into unhinged vengeance mode again, and I agree with some other poster who said that Colin was playing Hook as "not all there" as a consequence. In the next episode, he's sort of there, but then I don't know the reason for it. So, Regina was supposed to have triggered the opposite of Darkness in him because of the fiasco with Hook's dad where he...actually learned nothing, and I usually really like Hook flashback episodes if only for their structure and thematic solidness, but this was just a, "What. What was the point of this."

 

As for comparisons to Rumple, hrmm, I think this can't even go in the relationships thread because it's more of a Team Spirit thing. I guess it's that Hook usually goes to extremes, so if he's committed to being a hero then he's going to hero so hard. But, I think Darth Jones was actually much more destructive than Darth Rumple, and I...haha, kind of like him that way? Like, what did Dark One Rumple do the morning after? Make a soldier kiss his boot, and 200 years later prod people to cast the Dark Curse. What did Darth Jones do? Not even wait for morning, he's casting The Dark Curse his own damn self. Dark One Rumple didn't even try to punish King Maurice for torturing Princess Belle to suicide. Hook unleashed the Underworld on Storybrooke and invited all the Dark Ones to demonically possess his ambivalently-ex girlfriend's family and friends because...something...

 

And the collatoral damage between Rumple and Hook probably can't be compared because they're mostly offscreen, but Hook shot an unarmed woman in the back and gave her amnesia. Named character. Disney princess. That told me that he doesn't need magic powers to make Mr. Gold, town-owner and Dark One, cry. Captain Floor aside, Killian Jones is dangerous.

 

So, I thought Darth Hook was already immensely interesting, and would have been far more interesting if they'd shown why he became so unhinged, and how that works? Like is it magic darkness, or childhood trauma, or was it the principle of the thing, or a combination or what?

 

Instead it all just went at the pace of plot, so...if they thought it through, I didn't get to see it. Or if Papa Jones was it, I didn't get it. Meh. (But this also means that if Goldstiltskin doesn't show as the better man, the writers are likewise more culpable for that failing than the character. Remember Sympathetic Peasant Coward Chessmaster from the first season? I miss that Rumple.)

 

I can see Hook losing his shit when he finds out Rumple is back to being the Dark One.

I can see why Emma lost some of hers. Yeah, though, Hook should do some shit-losing because he fell on Excalibur so that the thing wouldn't happen again. This should probably go into the Rumple thread, but...isn't that also not smart of Rumple? Being the Dark One gave Mr. Gold cardiac arrest several times last season. And he signed up to become all of the Dark Ones? Hook will either lose his shit violently or just stand there stunned and flabbergasted, because Hook didn't even want to become Darth Jones the first time around. Why would someone volunteer for that, who wasn't infected?

[Rumsy4]

^ Rumple probably assumes he has at least another couple of 100 years to go before he needs to find another sucker to hoover up his darkness and start over with another clean slate. This Darkness transference thing is sooooo stupid.

[YaddaYadda]

I feel like Hook will be more pissed off about the fact that Rumple was willing to let Emma kill herself again just so he could gain more power.

 

Absolutely this, but also the fact that Rumple tricked everyone. Emma is saved, and so is Hook, but they'll never be safe because of him. Dude is a ticking time bomb with more darkness than he's had before.

[Rumsy4]

I see Hook haters in other forums have jumped at the chance to see Hook in a negative light after this last episode. It's like none of the good and heroic choices he made in 5A count any more. While the last-minute turnaround was better than I had hoped for, it was still poorly developed. They didn't show his internal struggles more than Colin's epic jaw clenches. Which is typical for this Show. Everything needs to be pushed until the last possible second to maintain suspense. While I don't think the writers "ruined" Hook's redemptive arc, they definitely set it back, especially with the flashback revealing that he orphaned his half-brother. I suppose this is to increase the angst and self-loathing when we see Hook in 5B, but really, it is cheap writing. The writers LOVE to throw away character-development just for the sake of drama. Of course, Rumple went into the beyond redeemable category, but I still feel offended. Rant over. :-p

Edited December 13, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Faemonic]

Bah, Hook haters jump at the chance to see him in a negative light every time the lighting director lights the lights. No good or neutral choice was ever going to count. I'm still seeing Hook hate for Emma's pink dress, and he wasn't even there when Snow picked it out for her! (Headcanons may vary.) The standards of "beyond redeemable" would remain comparatively more relaxed for other villains in those spaces. But that's what we're here for.

I do agree it was clumsy. This would only increase Hook's angst in 5B if anyone remembers that he orphaned Willy, otherwise it'd be like Hook hatting the magician's apprentice where the whole nunnery plus the Nevengers just figure that it's okay to keep him hatted for a few more days until they need him.

Otherwise, I never bought the angst that Angel from Buffy the Vampire Slayer had over what he did while he was demonically possessed, so I would actually have only slightly more patience for Hook angsting about Darth Jones, because what he said sounded like it could plausibly have come from our Hook. But then there's the fact that he had gone bananas. In the first part. In the second, he'd apparently been lucid-if-imbalanced all along. (Which one is it, writers?! Directors?? Colin?)

I mean, come on, the Shattered Sight spell was a huge disappointment because I was expecting some 28 Days Later rage virus sort of stuff, but that dropped more truth bombs and tears and afterward everybody...laughed about it...

[Rumsy4]

I'm still seeing Hook hate for Emma's pink dress

 

Ugh... me too! Apparently Emma was trying to change herself for Hook because she thought he would like that kind of "feminine" dress. There is so much wrong here, that I don't even know where to begin. 

 

 

I mean, come on, the Shattered Sight spell was a huge disappointment because I was expecting some 28 Days Later rage virus sort of stuff, but that dropped more truth bombs and tears and afterward everybody...laughed about it...

 

Yeah. That fizzled out pretty fast. 

[october]

About that dress though: when Will Scarlet bumped into them at the restaurant Emma was all ready to chase him down in that pink dress and heels. The only reason she stopped herself was because Will was a petty thief and not worth ruining her night for, plus there was an ice wall around town so he couldn't leave anyway. And it's not as if Emma's day to day clothes changed after she and Killian got together. God, some Hook-haters are such clowns.

[Mari]

Hook got different, modern clothes for that date, too. Not exactly his usual vest and leather swashbuckle look.

 

How dare he dress in modern fashions in the hopes of making himself attractive!   He shouldn't have to change how he dresses just to please a woman!

 

 

Oh, wait . . don't people on dates dress in clothes that they think other people will find attractive all the time?  Never mind.  I'll shut up, now.

[YaddaYadda]

I wear jeans and running shoes on my dates, because so comfy!

 

Maybe the people complaining have never been on a date? 

[mjgchick]

Or they think women who wear dresses are weak which Emma clearly isn't. Also didn't Hook fall for Emma who has not shower in days and had on the same outfit? Hook could careless what she wears. Besides we all know Hook thinks he's the prettiest to ever pretty. :)

[Shanna Marie]

With my initial post, I was trying to make the idea of two young boys traded into servitude by their own father seem a little less horrid. Whatever psychological issues resulted from such a terrible act of betrayal, it seems to me that both of them grew up to be good and honorable men, idealistic and (especially in Liam's case) somewhat naive. This suggests to me that a more positive male role model/father figure entered their lives at some point, as well as the bettering of their circumstances.

Oh, I see your point. Yes, for them to get from where we last saw them, being sold into servitude as children, to where we next see them, as the senior officers on what appears to be a prestigious ship and getting orders directly from the king, something good had to have happened to them somewhere along the way. They may not even have remained in servitude that long. For all we know, when they got to port and the authorities came looking for Papa, they took the children in when they found them. Or this ship may have run afoul of a navy ship, who took the boys in. Or something. Because if nothing good had intervened from where we last saw them, they likely wouldn't have been where they ended up.

 

And yet there still were likely psychological and emotional scars (which Hook alluded to). I do think that finding out that his dad was a louse right after he decided that he wanted to be like his father had an impact on Killian and made him doubt his own moral compass. When he had someone else good to steer by, he seemed to have done okay, but he manages to get adrift on his own. It seemed like there at the end, he finally found it within himself.

 

On another note, I've found myself thinking of poor Clarence, that guardian angel tasked with keeping Hook alive at all costs. He was probably whispering pretty loudly in Emma's ear to make her keep him alive using Excalibur, then thought "Yes! He's immortal! I get a vacation! Then just as the poor guy was chilling on a beach with an umbrella drink, his pager went off and he realized that the idiot managed to somehow get himself killed while immortal. So he rushed back to town with a lei still around his neck, going "Oh, crap! I am so dead! How can I fix this?" So then he whispered in Emma's ear again and gave her the idea to go drag Hook back from the Underworld.

 

I've also been pondering the possibilities for Liam 2. If he was within the reach of the curse, either in Storybrooke or the Coradome, then he'd be about Henry's age now. If he was outside the range of the curse, like maybe the way Hook dealt with him was to get him a position on a good ship and try to get him away from the curse that he knew was coming (he didn't know about the memory loss at that time, but did he know about the time freeze, or did he just know about the transport to the world without magic?), then he very likely would be physically older than Killian now, and Killian would have yet another big brother named Liam. I actually find that possibility more intriguing with story possibilities than a child Willy (there are already too many kids on the show, and we don't need yet another twist in the wacky family tree, so that if Hook and Emma adopted Willy, Henry would have a stepbrother who's also his step-uncle and step-great uncle). But if Liam 2 is an adult who grew up during those 28 years, wanting revenge on the pirate who killed his father (without knowing that was his own brother), then meets his younger big brother (older little brother?), and doesn't realize he's the pirate who killed his father because he's no longer a pirate, that could get interesting.

[october]

Maybe I'm being boring, but I don't want to see Liam 2.0 again. I'm tired of the long-lost relative plot twists and I'm sick of revenge arcs. Plus Killian has been through enough angst to last me for a while. I don't see what else a vengeful Liam 2.0 could add to Killian's story that we haven't already seen. But most of all, I want little Liam to be happy. I hope he died aged 85 surrounded by friends and family who loved him. I hope he got the best 'revenge' of all by living well instead of wasting his life hankering after payback and ending up like Owen or Percival: dead and with no one to mourn him. Maybe Killian could find out what happened to him somehow in the future and maybe he could go on to help out Liam's descendants in an attempt to settle the debt and get some form of closure. But there are other stories I'd rather see for Killian in the future.

Edited December 14, 2015 by october

[YaddaYadda]

I don't see how 2.0 can be some vengeful dude, just like I'm pretty sure he's not Will Scarlet like I've seen in some places, because as laughable as talking about the timeline has become, it simply doesn't fit.

 

2.0 was either dragged to Storybrooke by the curse, and became one of Henry's ageless classmates, or he stayed he was in Cora Dome where he did not age either. So I don't see some full on adult arriving at Hook's doorstep in all his vengeful glory. Plus knowing Hook who can be incredibly emo, he will probably give him the sword, and tell him to run him through because he regrets what he's done, blah blah blah.

 

They can put this story to rest by saying Hook's brother is in Storybrooke, that he's found him, he's living with a family that loves him, and cares about him like Paige/Grace was. They didn't throw the girl out because she wasn't theirs biologically. They had memories built in for them where they cared for her her entire life.

 

Maybe that's what happened to 2.0.

[Shanna Marie]

Well, my ideal scenario would be if there's a missing scene, and the moment after the scene where Hook killed his father cut off, everything around him dissolved and he found himself in Regina's palace, both of them wearing the clothes they were wearing in the season 2 episode, with Regina giving him a slow clap and saying "Well done, Captain."

 

HOOK: (blinking like he's waking up) What -- how?

REGINA: A delightful little spell (magic device?) I picked up. It reaches into your heart and mind to create the perfect scenario for testing your mettle, and I get to watch on my magic mirror. I must say, you put on quite a show. Those were such pretty tears. I was worried for a moment that you'd weaken, but you pulled through in the end. I believe you're ready to face my mother.

HOOK: You mean, none of this was real?
REGINA: It was based on what you know and think of your father, but I have no idea where he is. He probably died about a century ago. And there is no little brother. But it was real to you, so in a sense, you really did kill your father.

HOOK: (rushing at her with hook raised) Why you ...

REGINA: (flicking her wrist to hold him back with magic) Oh, it's nothing to feel bad about. After all, I'm sending you to kill my mother. We all have family issues. Don't worry. I won't tell anyone about this. It will be our little secret.

HOOK: We'll never speak of this again.

REGINA: Of course not. Now, go kill my mother.

 

But since that is highly unlikely, I do think that if we see him again, I'd prefer Liam 2 to be older and not a child, whether or not he's got any vengeance thing going on, mostly because I don't want another kid on the show and because one of my favorite fantasy tropes is the family with wildly askew ages, like a much, much younger brother who's actually physically older than his older brother.

[Dianthus]

I can't say I've given much thought to Li'l Liam (LL) so far. I sorta hope they bring him back, for closure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, considering TS,TW. 

[YaddaYadda]

2.0 was just the big plot point for Hook to change his mind, and kill his father.

 

I know Hook is a highly emotionally volatile character, but what I find out of character for him is leaving someone who is family behind like that. This is the guy who tried to build himself a family out of scraps. So 2.0 being left behind is very much OOC.

[Rumsy4]

I feel that the writers purposefully amped up Hook's past villainy for the sake of drama. So in all this time he's been in Storybrooke (or in the EF during the missing year), he never once bothered to check if 2.0 was anywhere about? That's ridiculous considering the fact that he turned back his ship in S2 to honor the memory of Baelfire over remorse for what he did. These writers just don't care about consistency. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I know Hook is a highly emotionally volatile character, but what I find out of character for him is leaving someone who is family behind like that. This is the guy who tried to build himself a family out of scraps. So 2.0 being left behind is very much OOC.

That's why the scenario I outlined above is my #1 preference because it gets rid of all the continuity and character issues. Option 2 is that Regina whisked him away immediately afterward and when he returned from Wonderland, he went looking for 2.0 but Regina had already sent him away, and then when he got to Storybrooke, he finally tracked him down, only to find that he was with a loving family and seemed happy, so he thought it was best to leave him alone, though he sometimes watches him on the playground with his spyglass. Papa Hook hadn't told 2.0 about his previous family, so the name "Killian Jones" would mean nothing to him even if he met Hook. All that happened offscreen and we'll never hear of it again.

 

The other possibility is that Hook tried to do with 2.0 what he tried to do with Bae, and the kid didn't believe him about being his brother (since Papa Hook didn't say anything about another family), and just saw him as a dirty pirate (given Papa's No Pirates Served Here policy in his tavern) and wanted nothing to do with him, so Hook arranged a position for him on a ship to get him away from the coming curse. And then we get adult 2.0 who's physically older than Killian when he appears again.

[mjgchick]

Will anyone be shocked that the writers write in that Hook did seek that he had a family to watch over him? Or worse that Liam Do over (Seriously their dad is a jackaas for that) comes back as his next enemy threatening Hooks happiness. All though wouldn't that kid be Henry's age?

This also reminds me of how at the end of Kill Bill The Bride tells the little girl she could come back for revenge for killing her mom.

[Shanna Marie]

All though wouldn't that kid be Henry's age?

If he got caught up in the curse, either in Storybrooke or the Coradome, or I guess if he'd ended up in Arendelle, he'd probably be about Henry's age now. If he was outside the curse and aged normally, he'd be at least a few years older than Killian (well, not counting Neverland and the curse, just going by physical age).

 

Watch us find out that Liam 2.0 has been Henry's friend that we've never heard about -- you know, from that one day he went to school.

[YaddaYadda]

2.0 is Henry's friend from NYC, Avery, was it? That's just a joke, but it's this show that created a victim baby brother out of thin air. If he was pulled by the curse, and lived 28 years in SB, he'd have a completely different name there, probably would go by that instead of Liam.

 

One thing I've sort of been wondering about, though I know it's completely useless since they will never revisit this storyline again. Hook and Regina both knew what he'd done, she knew he'd killed his father, she knew he orphaned his brother, and it's something they said they'd never talk about.

 

Did she do something for 2.0 since her ass knew exactly what the outcome would be if Hook decided to kill his father? That did mean orphaning 2.0, and destroying a family. She and Hook aren't friends, they consider each other an annoyance they have to put up with, so I don't see her doing anything that would be "nice" as a thank you for killing her mother.

Edited December 15, 2015 by YaddaYadda