S03.E05: The Usurper

[Haleth]

There was an awful lot of whining in this episode.  Everyone was sulky to some extent, from Floki who is always whiny, to Rollo who was unusually so, to Bjorn, to Lagertha (who had a reason), to Ragnar (who needs a punch in the face), to Aethelwulf (ditto punch), to Ecbert, who only pretended to be whiny, etc, etc.  I don't like whiny Vikings and Saxons.  

 

Oh, Ecbert, if you only knew what you've unleashed.  The wrath of the Ragnarson boys is about to come down on your ass.  Well, in a few years anyway.

 

Can't wait to see Paris.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Haleth

[SingleMaltBlonde]

, and judging the size change in Torsten's baby mamas it could easily be fall time now. 

 

 

 

I imagine if you are a Viking you better make it home by fall or you are not making it home.

Edited March 21, 2015 by SingleMaltBlonde

[Expat]

I guess I'm the only one who really really hates the idea of that baby being Alfred the Great. Don't go there show! It's irrational cause I hate Judith and Athelstan has been ruined for me, so I don't want their brat given any importance. I hope the purpose of the storyline was to make Athelstan 'choose'. Weren't there spoilers about him becoming 'born again'? Maybe this whole disaster will be the catalyst for that.

 

I'm still hopeful it's not the case though because Alfred was the youngest and had what, 3 brothers who ascended to the throne before him. As of now, Aethelwulf only has the one child. And it won't make any damn sense to me whatsoever if he ends up claiming Judith's brat. What possible reason could there be? He outright knows that it's not his. So I'm gonna be really pissed with the show if this happens. But like I said upthread, TPTB are fudging around with history and that worries me. :(

 

I don't why this irks me so, but it just does. Oh well, we all have something that rankles us on weird levels.

 

I don't know how I've become such a fan of Aethelwulf so quickly, but I am.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Gumdrops

[ihartcoffee]

I guess I'm the only one who really really hates the idea of that baby being Alfred the Great. Don't go there show! It's irrational cause I hate Judith and Athelstan has been ruined for me, so I don't want their brat given any importance. I hope the purpose of the storyline was to make Athelstan 'choose'. Weren't there spoilers about him becoming 'born again'? Maybe this whole disaster will be the catalyst for that.

 

I'm still hopeful it's not the case though because Alfred was the youngest and had what, 3 brothers who ascended to the throne before him. As of now, Aethelwulf only has the one child. And it won't make any damn sense to me whatsoever if he ends up claiming Judith's brat. What possible reason could there be? He outright knows that it's not his. So I'm gonna be really pissed with the show if this happens. But like I said upthread, TPTB are fudging around with history and that worries me. :(

 

I don't why this irks me so, but it just does. Oh well, we all have something that rankles us on weird levels.

 

I don't know how I've become such a fan of Aethelwulf so quickly, but I am.

 

 

I found myself liking him more too.  He's not bad looking and he's very loyal to his father.  He has volunteered or readily accepted going into dangerous situations with the Vikings.  I wouldn't kick him out of bed for eating crackers..... Althestan is a good monk, but not exactly "sexy".  

[Babalooie]

Did anyone else think that Porrun's scar looked like a Nike swish or a 'V' for Vikings?

[Expat]

I found myself liking him more too.  He's not bad looking and he's very loyal to his father.  He has volunteered or readily accepted going into dangerous situations with the Vikings.  I wouldn't kick him out of bed for eating crackers..... Althestan is a good monk, but not exactly "sexy".  

 

Honestly, I think I'm just team Wessex at this point. King Ecbert is the devil because of destroying the vikings settlement and people are hoping Ragnar comes and kicks ass. Screw that.

As if the Norsemen are freaking saints or something. Yeah, because raiding those monasteries and massacring those helpless monks wasn't horrible. Ragnar ordered Horik's daughters dead, but oh, he's somehow so much better than the Saxons? Hell no.

 

If Lagertha somehow defected to the English side, I'd be outright rooting for the defeat of the viking brigade. :D

Edited March 21, 2015 by Gumdrops

[magdalene]

I don't like Aethelwulf. When he had the little boy killed - the poor little  thing was running away and trying to hide and Aethelwulf had the archer shoot the boy in the back - I cringed inside. I don't find child murderers attractive or likable.

 

Sure the Athelstan/Judith relationship is boring - they have zero chemistry - but I don't dislike them.  I am sure hapless Judith will pay big time for her marital infidelity. Women could be executed in the good ol' days for adultery.

Edited March 22, 2015 by magdalene

[ihartcoffee]

Honestly, I think I'm just team Wessex at this point. King Ecbert is the devil because of destroying the vikings settlement and people are hoping Ragnar comes and kicks ass. Screw that.

As if the Norsemen are freaking saints or something. Yeah, because raiding those monasteries and massacring those helpless monks wasn't horrible. Ragnar ordered Horik's daughters dead, but oh, he's somehow so much better than the Saxons? Hell no.

 

If Lagertha somehow defected to the English side, I'd be outright rooting for the defeat of the viking brigade. :D

Now I am embarrassed! My mind is in the gutter. ...

I get you, the Vikings are technically hard to like. They kill at will, no regard to their victim.

[maraleia]

Hey Everyone,

Since there's been a lot of talk about what Michael Hirst is getting right about history versus what the show is depicting I was thinking we should rename the Historical Inaccuracies thread to encompass this entire conversation.

This way the episode threads can just be used for discussion of what happened in that particular episode.

What name should we use for the thread?

When that is decided I'll move the posts here that pertain to this topic to the other thread so you peeps can talk to your hearts content.

maraleia

[jsonmaui]

I think it's amusing how jealous Floki is of Athelstan.

I am guessing Ragnar will help  Lagertha - but will so in a duplicitous manner as he did so well with Jarl Borg and Horik.

Hopefully, Athelstan will inform Ragnar of some of those Julius Caesar tactics he read to Ecbert.

 

 

[Haleth]

I am guessing Ragnar will help  Lagertha - but will so in a duplicitous manner as he did so well with Jarl Borg and Horik.

 

He did invite Kalf to go on the raiding party to Paris.  It should be easy for Lagertha to take back the earldom if he and his warriors are gone.

[Captanne]

While I don't find Floki amusing in the least -- I find the character as written and performed to be one-note and, amazingly, a mix of annoying and boring as shit.

 

An episode hasn't happened where I haven't said aloud, "Go away, Floki."  

 

When a character gets that response periodically, it's interesting and provocative.  When it's every time he's on screen, it's boring and a waste of airtime.

 

OTH, and I do mean to say a nice thing about the character and the performance now -- he is a  victim of the writing and directing (and, presumably his acting choices but I said I'd be nice) -- I think he is so one-note because he represents the archetype of the Viking's loss of their culture.  They may be raping and pillaging their way from Scandinavia to North Africa and everything in between, but they are being enculturated themselves along the way.  It's unavoidable.

 

As an American, I live with that every day.  No matter where we go in the modern world, we bring some of it back with us.  (Personally, I'm glad of it although you'll find some more "right wing" people who are xenophobic.  There's your "Floki" in action.)

 

Come to think of it, Floki would make a great anchor on the Viking FOX News network.

 

No wonder I find him tedious and awful.

[ihartcoffee]

I don't like Aethelwulf. When he had the little boy killed - the poor little  thing was running away and trying to hide and Aethelwulf had the archer shoot the boy in the back - I cringed inside. I don't find child murderers attractive or likable.

 

Sure the Athelstan/Judith relationship is boring - they have zero chemistry - but I don't dislike them.  I am sure hapless Judith will pay big time for her marital infidelity. Women could be executed in the good ol' days for adultery.

 

I know what women could be executed for in those days, so I'm surprised she would be so blatant. 

 

Most of the men on Vikings are murderers, even Althestan.  I still find a lot of them sexy.  Many people hate Ragnar and can't wait to see him get caught/executed yet he shielded a little boy from being killed by covering him with a blanket. His buddies had probably killed his parents though. 

 

I just try to remember these are actors, that little boy didn't really get shot with an arrow. I don't put too much emotional stock into it.  The producers wouldn't put it in there for shock value, it's part of the story of how brutal they were back then.  They thought nothing of killing kids to achieve a goal.

 

He did invite Kalf to go on the raiding party to Paris.  It should be easy for Lagertha to take back the earldom if he and his warriors are gone.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Ragnar rarely announces his plans flat out.  

[green]

While I don't find Floki amusing in the least -- I find the character as written and performed to be one-note and, amazingly, a mix of annoying and boring as shit.

 

Different strokes.  I love Floki as a character and find him really interesting.  A Viking shaman who foresees the twilight of the gods coming while no one else seems to care or believe him.  I also think the actor portraying him has been nothing short of brilliant.  Love his body movements and how they remind me of Gollum (spelling corrected finally) at times.

 

Are the Vikings butchers at times?  Of course.  Now the Saxons are too.  That's history for you.  Very few good guys in any land every.

 

 

I know what women could be executed for in those days, so I'm surprised she would be so blatant. 

 

Judith should not be in danger.  She's the daughter of King Aella and is the seal on the alliance pack with Northumbria.  Now if Ecbert wants to start a war with Northumbria, fine.  But he doesn't.  Well, not yet.  (Ecbert's Bucket List:  #23 - Backstab King Aella and take over his lands). 

 

Also nobility of both genders were always messing around throughout history.  And Aethelwulf is obviously pissed but he does what daddy wants and is more likely to have it in for a former monk then his political wife.

 

I failed to mention upthread that I also was completely fooled by Ecbert's moves this episode.  Brilliant!  Well if you don't believe in karma, ethics and morality.  Which most leaders and rulers in all times don't.  Doesn't say karma isn't gonna bite him sooner than later though.

Edited March 26, 2015 by green

[Jul 68]

So the bear will marry the princess. Who (or what) are the bear and princess? Is he referring to the Northlands as the bear taking over Paris as the princess?

My thoughts regarding the bear ran immediately to berzerker as well. To illustrate my thoughts better, here are two quotes from Wikipedia:

The name berserker derives from the Old Norse berserkr. This expression most likely arose from their reputed habit of wearing a kind of shirt or coat (serkr) made from the pelt of a bear (ber-) during battle. The bear was one of the animals representing Odin, and by wearing such a pelt the warriors sought to gain the strength of a bear and the favor of Odin.

Most historians believe that berserkers worked themselves into a rage before battle, while the idea that they consumed drugged foods has also been suggested.

Think Rollo and the magic mushrooms (but for some dippy reason, I didn't place Rollo specifically into this vision). Of course, I do now.

ETA: The princess would either be Judith (doubtful, but based on the daughter of Charles the Bald) or Poppa.

Enjoyed the Bjorn/Rollo throwdown.

This was both epic and loving. Bjørn was saving Rollo from certain death. It also proved to me the great casting of Alexander Ludwig. There was not a doubt in my mind that this was a true son of Ragnar while watching that scene.

From the previews it looks like Judith is going to the execution block for her infidelity.

Could it be possible that they keep Judith alive long enough to give birth and use her as leverage against her father, but execute her once those two issues are complete? The populous may only know that she cheated. Why would it need to be publicly known with whom and when? Also, they do so love to time jump on this show, would it be w/o reason that the preview (next episode) is 6 or so months later?

I took the Seer's words about Rollo dancing on the beach to mean that if he knew how horrible his fate was he would be dancing on the beach relishing how good he has it now by comparison.

As did I. It almost read to me that he was encouraging Rollo to jump in the ocean and join Siggy (sans the hypothermia). Edited March 22, 2015 by Jul 68

[caprice]

I finally got around to watching. Thank goodness for the DVR....

 

Enjoyed the Bjorn/Rollo throwdown.  The scene where he learns of Siggy's death was well-done.

 

Loved the long-shot of Ragnar standing on the sail, looking out at the mountains.

For having had a rather bitter parting, Rollo really was taken aback at not seeing Siggy upon their return. I thought Clive Standen did a beautiful job showing the loss.

 

I love anytime the cinematographers go for a long shot like that. They are blessed with truly gorgeous scenery.

 

What the... damn!  Ecbert, you Magnificent Bastard!  That was so cold, but you couldn't have planned that any better.  Set up the Viking camp for a slaughtering (even the kids!), but make it look like it was treason by all the guys who consistently questioned you.  Again, damn!  I want to hate you, but I have to respect you for pulling that off.  I really can't wait to see what else he has in-store.  I'm sure he has to have something else planned, once Ragnar finds out.

 

Should have known Ragnar/Lagertha teaming up to take out Kalf, would have been too good to be true.  Ragnar just doesn't give a shit about Lagertha anymore, and is willing to just work with Kalf to help with his new Paris raid.  Yep, Ragnar's an asshole.  No surprises there.  But, one of these days, his luck his going to run out and he'll piss someone off who will actually hurt him.  Until then, I'm sure he'll get even smuger.  I just hope Lagertha plays it safe, and regains power without putting herself in danger.  Remember what The Seer said!

 

Glad that Rollo was upset over what happened to Siggy.  The fight between him and Bjorn was brutal; and his scene with The Seer was intense.  But, it sounds like the Seer sees big things for Rollo still, so that could be fun.

 

Yep, Ragnar is officially done with Aslaug, I think.

 

I'd read about Ecbert's betrayal here, but it was still a surprise to see it come together onscreen. I admit to giving him a slow clap.

 

Ragnar/Lagertha/Kalf... I don't think it's as easy as that. I suspect, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that Ragnar has planted a seed in Kalf's mind and if he joins in on the Paris raid, Kalf might not be coming back.

 

It was a great fight between Rollo and Bjorn, and an interesting move on Bjorn's part. I could see him thinking, "Not the smartest thing I'll ever do, but he's grief-stricken and ridiculously drunk. I could fight him, or they could, and they'll kill him. Okay, here I come, Uncle."

 

Ragnar's been done with Aslaug for a while.

 

Ragnar's position concerning Lagertha seems completely sensible to me. He gave Kalf the option of joining them in the sack of Paris, or dealing with Lagertha on his own. If the Paris invasion is going to succeed, they need as much force as they can muster. Why waste time on civil war when he can recruit Kalf, enrich everyone, and then deal with him later? Lagertha was given an equal voice in everything as far as the England trip was concerned; she was never treated as being subordinate to anyone. If she can't hold her own earldom and go off raiding, she probably doesn't deserve to.

I agree with this and would add that Lagertha volunteered to help Ragnar take Kattegat back from Jarl Borg. Nobody asked or twisted her arm. She went back to support her former home and friends there. So she also ended up doing a favor for her ex. As to joining his raid on Wessex... it could be argued that this is something she would be expected to do as an Earl and as a shield-maiden. Would I like to see Ragnar acknowledge his debt to her? Of course. I just also think that he has a longer-term plan for dealing with things.

 

Different strokes.  I love Floki as a character and find him really interesting.  A Viking shaman who foresees the twilight of the gods coming while no one else seems to care or believe him.  I also think the actor portraying him has been nothing short of brilliant.  Love his body movements and how they remind me of Golem at times.

 

Judith should not be in danger.  She's the daughter of King Aella and is the seal on the alliance pack with Norhtumbria.  Now if Ecbert wants to start a war with Norhtumbria, fine.  But he doesn't.  Well, not yet.  (Ecbert's Bucket List:  #23 - Backstab King Aella and take over his lands). 

 

Also nobility of both genders were always messing around throughout history.  And Aethelwulf is obviously pissed but he does what daddy wants and is more likely to have it in for a former monk then his political wife.

 

I failed to mention upthread that I also was completely fooled by Ecbert's moves this episode.  Brilliant!  Well if you don't believe in karma, ethics and morality.  Which most leaders and rulers in all times don't.  Doesn't say karma isn't gonna bite him sooner than later though.

Agreed on the appreciation of Floki's characterization and Gustaf Skarsgard's performance. Then again, I studied cultural adaptation and he's certainly a man in the middle.

 

Is Judith in danger? She's putting Ecbert's lineage at risk which was treason. That said, I don't think that anything will happen to her simply because Ecbert KNOWS and he's got that serious man-crush on Athelstan, so.... she'll be relatively safe. Yes, historically speaking, she would have been, but this is TV. :)

[jsonmaui]

I agree about Floki - the actor's ability to get you truly disgusted with him demonstrates - in my humble opinion - he is manipulating our emotions. That's his job as an actor and he is doing it very well.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I agree about Floki - the actor's ability to get you truly disgusted with him demonstrates - in my humble opinion - he is manipulating our emotions. That's his job as an actor and he is doing it very well.

History is full of people like Floki...he an's exremeist hothead who was the heart or id of the group (think Patrick Henry or Thomas More)...they are necessary but probably exhausting on a day to day basis.

[Babalooie]

Regarding Floki, he's a Skarsgard.  Can't go wrong.  Yes, sometimes he is Gollum and sometimes he is like a panther.  Often I see him as serpentine, even hissing his words.  I compare him to a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist.  Very extreme in his beliefs.  I think that Gustaf Skarsgard is a very private person. No twitter page himself, as also with Travis Fimmel, only fan pages.  I keep up with Clive Standen, Katheryn Winnick, and George Blagden for little hints or photos from the filming.  I would love to read any interviews with him discussing what/who he based the character on.  Post a link if you know of one.

[green]

History is full of people like Floki...he an's exremeist hothead who was the heart or id of the group (think Patrick Henry or Thomas More)...they are necessary but probably exhausting on a day to day basis.

 

OT:  I would think Thomas More was anything but an extremist hothead.  He was trying to stop a bloody religious civil war starting in England like it did in the Germanic states (Peasants' War) which was started by a real extremist hothead playing the religion card. 

 

Thomas More was a reformer, never a revolutionary, and a man of conscience and the leader of the early renaissance in England.  And More would never have been exhausting in life.  He was known for his humor and wit and his house was most always filled with England's and, in some cases, Europe's intelligentsia of the day.  I would have loved to hang out there back in the day.

 

And he wrote a damn fine book in "Utopia" which was a imaginary land of pagans who were far more rational and morally "Christian" in their life then his real life contemporary Christians.  Which, of course, was the main point of the book.

 

Sorry but had to defend More.  I've read about 20 books on him and he is my favorite character in history.  And the diametric opposite of Floki given his curiosity about almost anything and everything in life and his great love of learning.  (Hope that wasn't too off topic but there are only 2 pages on this thread so figured it was okay in a smaller-posted thread).

 

Babalooie, thanks for typing the right spelling for Gollum.  Back to correct my old post.  And I must say it is weird to be addressing this to a descendent of Ragnar (whoever he really was) and Aslaug through Ivar the Boneless.  Bet you can't wait for The Great Heathen Army's turn in the series to arrive.

 

Don't know a link on Gustaf but was it you or someone else mentioned he is in a relationship with Creator/Writer Michael Hirst's daughter now.  Maybe she has a blog or something.  But I kind of like that he doesn't have a page.  I like when actors kind of stay hidden behind their characters.

Edited March 23, 2015 by green

[Pogojoco]

 

 

As for the 'Bear marrying the Princess', it could be either Rollo or Bjorn, since Bjorn means bear.  I think Bjorn and Rollo both ended up marrying princesses.  Of course the whole 'Rollo being overshadowed by Ragnar' is funny when you think that every royal alive in Europe today is descended from Rollo.

Totally. I would love for Rollo to say "Sure, Mom and Lagertha loved you more, but 1066, baby." 

 

And Floki is fascinating because he is a zealot. And I'll love him forever for the forehead kiss/head butt move he did last year. He's a loose canon and Skarsgård plays the heck out of him. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Pogojoco

[millennium]

re: the "dick" and "ass" and "douche" remarks

 

Ragnar's a Viking king.   A man who fought his way from simple farmer to leader of his people and invader of other countries.

 

He didn't get there by being Alan Alda.   

[green]

Totally. I would love for Rollo to say "Sure, Mom and Lagertha loved you more, but 1066, baby." 

 

And Floki is fascinating because he is a zealot. And I'll love him forever for the forehead kiss/head butt move he did last year. He's a loose canon and Skarsgård plays the heck out of him. 

 

And me for his response to Siggy when she asked him if he could keep a secret last season.  The subtle physical acting coupled with the half-giggled but matter-of-fact "no" were perfectly acted and I still laugh remembering that little scene.

 

Also agree about Ragnar being a Viking king.  The whole point of telling the story according to Hirst was to tell about this era of history -- which is traditionally termed The Age of the Vikings -- for the first time from the Norse point of view.  But their pov doesn't mean it turns them suddenly saintly.  They weren't. 

 

But they weren't one-dimensional devils either.  They grew up in a culture where they inherited the ethos that their gods held the calling of the warrior as the highest way of conduct.  And that probably arose originally from the harsh conditions of their land and what it took to survive their.  They lived in areas with short growing seasons and thin soil and the population reached the point finally where it needed more land to survive.  For awhile raiding filled the gap for them but Ragnar is shown in the show to represent the Vikings who began to realize that more and richer farmland was the only real solution for their people.  Happens endlessly in history that peoples migrate or conquer because of that.  Coupled with the warrior ethos and that all the lands they could reach were already occupied, and by people who had a different culture and god, the Vikings clash with that world was most often bloody and could get very ugly.

 

Sure they were wrong to rape and pillage and burn and loot.  The Saxons had never attacked them and were the innocent party.  Again, the show never hides that fact.  But now in this episode we can see the Saxons can be just as bloody and slaughter innocents just as much as any Viking could.  It was a far different age back then and you can't understand any age in history without the context of that era.  Set and setting is the basis of any time in history.  Doesn't excuse the horrible slaughter.  But history sometimes seems like an endless chronicle of slaughters.  Remember that the Saxons themselves had originally mass slaughtered the native Celts several generations back to take over England.

 

The Vikings weren't the first nor were they the last people to war upon their neighbors driven in part by their warrior culture but also in part by their need to survive themselves.  And they were a complex people and not cartoon villains.  They didn't have a group mind.  The differences between Ragnar and Floki in their visions of how the people should live are showing that quite well I think. 

 

I think Hirst said that was part of the reason he wanted to do the series.  To show that the Vikings weren't just one dimensional villains but to give a people who had no writing at that time a voice finally to kind of tell their side of the story.  Not a glorified, scrubbed-up version.  Just their version from their pov and let the audience be rightly appalled at times but also develop a feeling for a real people with real problems and real love for their families and their culture in their way too.

 

Also in showing that free women had somewhat better opportunities in their society as in the respect a shield maiden garnered, the right a free woman had not to be beaten by her husband at will (Athelstan's lesson to Ecbert early on) and the right of people to speak up during The Thing and question to at least some degree what is going on with their leaders were positives in their culture.  So it wasn't a totally negative society either.

[Babalooie]

Regarding my ancestry link to Ragnar and Ivar,  who knows at what point factual records gave way to lore?  They had no written records other than runes.  All I know is that in my line the names following Ragnar and Ivar were still Scandinavian, but their places of birth were listed as Dublin.  This was in the 900's and 1000's, which makes sense chronologically.  This was on my mother's side.  In checking again while writing this post,  I have found that on my father's side  I have Ragnar, King of Sweden and Denmark and his son, Sigurd Snake in the Eye. Following them in that line, the places of birth began to be France.   I guess that means I'm inbred from 11 centuries ago????  Many of us probably are. :)

 

Either way, this show has  been fantastic for renewing an interest in history.  Can't wait for Paris.

[Captanne]

That also bodes well for Ragnar in Paris, eh?  Glad you're here to bear us tidings of good news genealogically speaking!

 

ETA:  I happen to be a first year PhD candidate in humanities and we just finished the 10th and 11th Centuries.  We are now riding in the Crusades and starting to look at the original hippie himself, St. Francis.  We spent a lot of time with the Vikings in Europe and North Africa.  They were really stunning in their ability to travel and plunder.

 

EETA:  I have no problem with tricksters -- they are fascinating and quixotic.  It's when they get one-note I get bored.  That, probably, is a performance problem.  Also, I don't quite see the Gollum comparison.  Gollum was a normal hobbit named Smeagol of the Stoor tribe until he found the Ring and wore it.  Then he was a pawn of the Ring and the dark forces of Mordor, who destroyed him -- forces with single-minded, evil intent.  I don't see Floki as ever being "a normal guy named Sven ruined by Evil." 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Captanne

[bandella]

Regarding my ancestry link to Ragnar and Ivar,  who knows at what point factual records gave way to lore?  They had no written records other than runes.  All I know is that in my line the names following Ragnar and Ivar were still Scandinavian, but their places of birth were listed as Dublin.  This was in the 900's and 1000's, which makes sense chronologically.  This was on my mother's side.  In checking again while writing this post,  I have found that on my father's side  I have Ragnar, King of Sweden and Denmark and his son, Sigurd Snake in the Eye. Following them in that line, the places of birth began to be France.   I guess that means I'm inbred from 11 centuries ago????  Many of us probably are. :)

 

Either way, this show has  been fantastic for renewing an interest in history.  Can't wait for Paris.

Very cool! My brother has been trying to figure out our genealogy for a while now, and he's discovered that, at least on our mom's side, we're (surprise!) descended from vikings as well. He's gotten as far back as 12th century Germany (well, what's now Germany, anyway) and figured out that our ancestors somehow ended up farther north, became vikings, settled in Ireland for a while and helped found Limerick, split off to Scotland, and then finally headed over here when they got kicked off their land for back taxes. Heh. Sounds about right. No big names to be found yet, but it's pretty cool that there's a monastery somewhere in present-day Germany that still stands, though the original owner had it built many centuries ago after buying vineyard land from our ancestor. 

 

I want to like Rollo. I still can't forgive him for the slave girl incident way back when, though. Yes, yes, historical context and all that, but that doesn't mean I have to excuse it. But man, dude just can't catch a break. 

 

Add me to the list of people who desperately wanted to see Lagertha walk right up to Kalf and put a sword in his belly. And then turn around and whack her deadbeat ex for his "help." I understand that he wants to avoid a civil war, especially when he needs all the men he can acquire to go raiding, but come on. He owes Lagertha quite a lot by now, and that debt just keeps getting bigger. 

 

So I guess this means Bjorn and Thorinn aren't MFEO? Unless Thorinn ends up becoming "the princess" somehow. 

 

I also guess I was wrong about Judith already being pregnant. I didn't realize she'd already had her baby by the time she and Athelstan had sex. Also: WTF, ATHELSTAN. How has one of my top favorite characters become such an unrecognizable caricature?

 

Speaking of caricatures...ugh. Shut up, Floki. I have no tolerance for fundamentalist extremists of any stripe, in any age. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Sorry but had to defend More.  

 

I like More (Man for All Seasons is one of my favorite movie for ever) but he was an absolutist and hard line conservative who resisted the Reformation.  I understand the position, especially given the time and the real potential for civil war.

 

His views on education were progressive (there are parts of the world where they still are) but he burned people at the stake for heresey and burned books.

 

 

[hincandenza]

Regarding Floki, he's a Skarsgard. Can't go wrong.

Yeah, I wonder how many people (maybe most here, since we're all smart and curious :) ) who watch the show know that Floki is the brother of Alexander "Eric Northman" Skarsgård and son of Stellan "Fields Medal" Skarsgård. Nice little acting family, there, but when he's in makeup you'd never guess the familial relation. Out of makeup, he looks like a partner in a Swedish law firm.

Another solid episode, although I remain confused about Ecbert and his sudden but inevitable betrayal. When did he decide to do the deed, and when was his son in on it- during the unseen hallway conversation? He seemed genuinely interested in an alliance for the last season, so I don't know how much is long con, and how much was a result of the cultural differences making him realize he and his people wouldnt tolerate a settlement of "savages" next door. In any case, thats a shitty long term plan: those Northmen are coming back, and you've seen how good they are in battle, so why make enemies of them?

Given that it's a historical show I won't "pick sides" since by modern standards they're all horrible bloody savages; if anything, I appreciate that we're not getting a clean Manichean good v. evil show. Ragnar is as fascinating as he is loathsome- as are they all. Laegertha is probably the closest we have left to an unambiguously rootable hero at this point. But it sure sounds like this show is a hit- when I posted on FB about the season starting, I got so many "yay!" replies from friends I didn't even know watched- and they'll at least go into a 4th season with Paris looming this year or the next, which means our "star" Travis Fimmel is at some point likely dying onscreen before the series finale. The show thus seems less a hagiography of Ragnar than a complex ensemble show about culture clashes between people both very unlike ourselves and each other... yet very much the same. I'm glad we aren't getting Kumbaya cultural diffusion, since "Fuck it, kill the heathens" was a far more common reaction then. Or now, come to think of it... :(

Why was Porrun so broken up by her scar? If women regularly fought alongside men, I don't see how a few battle scars wouldn't be ignored as pretty common. There's no Cosmo for Shield Maidens to influence her into a poor body image, and once it heals she'll just look like some badass chick with a Tyrion Lannister scar. Then again, Laegertha has zero scars despite innumerable battles, so maybe Bjorn grew up expecting shieldmaidens to all be unstoppable ass-kicking juggernauts. :)

Rollo did some really great acting this week (and damn, I'm a straight dude but when he's out of makeup and beard like on his Wiki photo, Clive Standen cleans up nice), although as one of the historically spoiled I was giggling along with the seer. Someone needs to make an "It Gets Better" video for the depressed brothers of legendary Viking kings...

Edited March 23, 2015 by hincandenza

[bandella]

Yeah, I wonder how many people (maybe most here, since we're all smart and curious :) ) who watch the show know that Floki is the brother of Alexander "Eric Northman" Skarsgård and son of Stellan "Fields Medal" Skarsgård. Nice little acting family, there, but when he's in makeup you'd never guess the familial relation. Out of makeup, he looks like a partner in a Swedish law firm.

I've been saying since day one that it'd be a great little nod if Alex showed up for a cameo. Eric's roughly contemporary with the timeline of this show, isn't he? He was born c. 900 and turned into a vampire c. 930 or thereabouts, so he could totally drop by -- though the gang would be well-advised to be wary of any more hot wanderers who happen into Kattegut...

 

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit I only know Stellan as the lovable and occasionally naked Erik Selvig of MCU fame. Hey, there we go. Maybe he could show up with a cameo, ranting and raving about Loki invading his brain and using him as a puppet.

 

They have another brother whose name escapes me right now. Let's get the entire Skarsgard clan involved. The more the merrier!

 

S'a good looking family. I don't notice it so much in this pic, but for some reason in the show, Floki reminds me so much of Dominic Monaghan. I have no idea why. I think it's the nose.

Edited March 24, 2015 by bandella

[millennium]

The thing that tickles me about this episode and the series in general is Rollo's constant whining about his position.  

 

'Why does Ragnar get all the good stuff!?'

'Mom always liked you best!'

'How come I always come in second!?'

 

 

Yup, all that was missing was "Everybody loves Ragnar."

[Babalooie]

I know Stellan from "Mama Mia" (music nerd). Bandella,  the genealogy is a nice, inexpensive hobby through ancestry.com.  It will be a sad day for me when we lose Floki or Ragnar, but as someone connected with the show said, people don't live forever.

[green]

EETA:  I have no problem with tricksters -- they are fascinating and quixotic.  It's when they get one-note I get bored.  That, probably, is a performance problem.  Also, I don't quite see the Gollum comparison.  Gollum was a normal hobbit named Smeagol of the Stoor tribe until he found the Ring and wore it.  Then he was a pawn of the Ring and the dark forces of Mordor, who destroyed him -- forces with single-minded, evil intent.  I don't see Floki as ever being "a normal guy named Sven ruined by Evil." 

 

I didn't mean the character of Gollum.  I meant that the Floki actor (Gustaf) reminds me of how Gollum moves in the Lord of the Rings films.  Physical moments.  The way be glides and jumps around and sometimes looks sideways and such.  His physical posture.  Even his smaller stature helps in that illusion for me.

 

I like More (Man for All Seasons is one of my favorite movie for ever) but he was an absolutist and hard line conservative who resisted the Reformation.  I understand the position, especially given the time and the real potential for civil war.

 

His views on education were progressive (there are parts of the world where they still are) but he burned people at the stake for heresey and burned books.

 

I don't see him as a hard line conservative and his own son-in-law (Will Roper) lived under his roof for several years while following Luther.  And he was one of the leading reformers long before Luther came along.  Opposed the wealth, the indulgences, the corruption always.  But he was a reformer and not a revolutionary like the latter and wanted to preserve one universal and hopefully reformed church.  That was where they parted ways.  He did become somewhat more conservative as he sensed the danger of civil war increasing.  At one time he didn't even accept that the Pope was necessarily the head of the church.  The radicals started to drive him into a more conservative position than he normally would have taken without what he saw as their threat to the stability of society I think.

 

Nor did he actually burn "heretics" at the stake.  There was a law regards smuggling in unauthorized translations of the Bible that was presented by Henry VIII years before and passed by Parliament long before he became Lord Chancellor.  There were a number of bad translations that basically were being used almost as smokescreens for separatist agendas.  So that was the capital offense.  "Heresy" never ever was.  More had no problem with people following their own beliefs or even keeping a banned translation as long at they didn't go around waving it in public, just not recruiting communities of dissents against the state.  And the law was against large scale smuggling from Europe into England, not in possessing a book I should add.  It was smugglers only who broke the law.

 

A Lord Chancellor had a duty under the law to turn over any evidence of such crimes to a church court who then tried and sentenced people.  More actually saved countless lives by releasing men accused of this for "lack of evidence" as he wrote on their dossiers and tried his best to look the other way unless they got too carried away.  If they gave him their word they would stop he would let them off with a warning.  Only three men had their dossiers handed over to the church court during his time in office, one of which he had let off two earlier times.  Wolsey before him and the man who took over after him sent countless people to the church court.  By contrast More managed to save almost all he had to deal with.

 

Guess I went off topic again so maybe I should stop here and we could discuss stuff in private messages if you want.  Cause whatever you want to say about More, we can both agree he wasn't a Viking or a Saxon noble.  :-)  (I appreciate we can post without the feeling of a straight jacket here though, thanks to Previously TV for their liberal policies).

Edited March 24, 2015 by green

[Captanne]

Ah, I wasn't clear on the Gollum reference and even went back to trace the conversation.  Floki is a trickster (imo) and so was Gollum but their stories are very, very different.

 

It may be the actor's attempt to copy Gollum that I find so darned annoying.  :-)  I definitely see the similarity that you do.

 

BTW:  I was kind of tolerant of the character (kind of) until the bit where he was so fucking narcissistic and freakish about not liking his own child.  I don't really care if someone doesn't like a family member (that goes on all the time) -- but disliking your own infant child is so fundamentally twisted* and the reason he gave was so fucking lame that I wrote him off for good.  At that moment he was on my last nerve and never came back.

 

*A la strapping them into the family minivan and driving into a lake.  That a is severe mental illness and nothing that person says is to be heeded.  In my opinion.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Captanne

[insubordination]

I didn't know the Skarsgard connection, and I am surprised. Love Stellan. It's good that they cast at least one Swedish actor. Are any of the other cast Scandinavian?  Most of them speak with a bogus Scandinavian accent. I guess it makes more sense than having half a dozen different accents though. The actors come from all regions of the world.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Yup, all that was missing was "Everybody loves Ragnar."

I kept thinking, "Ragnar, Ragnar, Ragnar"  

 

Maybe we would call it the Viking Bunch.

 

 

Guess I went off topic again so maybe I should stop here and we could discuss stuff in private messages if you want.  Cause whatever you want to say about More, we can both agree he wasn't a Viking or a Saxon noble.  :-)  (I appreciate we can post without the feeling of a straight jacket here though, thanks to Previously TV for their liberal policies).

 

Reasoned discussion on the internet...who knew?

 

We can agree this isn't Spain*

[CtlAltDel]

So is everyone going to have babies now?

Porunn to Bjorn

Princess Judith to Athelstan

The two women to Torstein

Lagertha to King Ecbert

Aslaug to Harbard

Princess Kwenthrith to Ragnar

A goat in the market to Rollo?

Have I left anyone out??

[bandella]

I didn't know the Skarsgard connection, and I am surprised. Love Stellan. It's good that they cast at least one Swedish actor. Are any of the other cast Scandinavian?  Most of them speak with a bogus Scandinavian accent. I guess it makes more sense than having half a dozen different accents though. The actors come from all regions of the world.

I don't know about anyone of Swedish descent, but I know the actor who played Jarl Borg last season is Norwegian. 

Update: According to Almighty Google and Wiki, the guy who plays Erlendur is Swedish. Lagertha's short-lived douchebag husband from last season is a Dane. So there have been at least a few Scandinavians in the cast.

[maraleia]

Hey Everyone,

Please take all off topic discussions (meaning anything not pertaining to specific episodes like this one) to the other threads. Here are two suggestions based on what's been discussed here.

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/3970-hirsts-vikings-vision-vs-recorded-history/#entry962442\

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/1962-small-talk-behind-the-shield-wall/#entry878677 (genealogy talk et.al.)

I really don't want to start deleting posts. I won't delete the ones that have already been posted as of this evening.

Thanks,

maraleia

[Kalliste]

On 3/24/2015 at 0:18 PM, bandella said:

S'a good looking family. I don't notice it so much in this pic, but for some reason in the show, Floki reminds me so much of Dominic Monaghan. I have no idea why. I think it's the nose.

I think it quite often actually. There was definitely a part in this episode, I think it was when Ragnar was doing his Paris speech and Floki was all "YAY, he loves me again!" and then he points to Athelstan and Floki gets disappointed. He reminded me a lot of Charlie/Dominic from LOST. Both characters being quite annoying :D

So.. did I miss the part where Princess Krazypants and Ragnar got it on? I know she peed on him and all but was it implied after that that they also had sex? I feel like it's one of those missing scenes that actually have relevance.

I was so sad about he Ecbert reveal! But also pretty impressed. I do always love a good villain. Although, I suppose, technically, nearly everyone in this show could be deemed a villain at one point or another. I like when characters are neither good nor bad they just are.

I actually liked the Athelstan parts of this episode when he was talking to Ragnar about Paris.

I can understand why Lagertha is disappointed in Ragnar but did she really want to have the king come help her out? What good would that do for her reputation? I like that Ragnar gave Kalf a choice :D