S03.E08: Divestment

[Dev F]

I think there's one card that Phillip has left aside from offing Martha. He can try to convince her that she can't hide from Walter Taffet forever, that eventually she and the man she loves will both go down for what they've done, and that the only way to stop it is to have someone else take the fall. If it worked, if she agreed to work with him to frame, say, the jittery computer guy, then she's no longer just an innocent dupe but a coconspirator, and he's got her on the hook forever.

 

The question is, would she ever go for something like that, even to save herself and her husband? I'd like to think not, but Clark has already had some success at convincing her that her coworkers are actually cruel jerks who talk shit about her behind her back ("Come on, guys, Martha's ugly"), so perhaps there's a way Phillip could spin it that would be successful.

 

As for why Arkady is willing to go to the wall for Oleg, I think it's another example of the episode's "divestment" theme: I think he genuinely realizes that when push comes to shove, he cares more about his own operation and the people under his command than about the petty politics of the Soviet elite. Maybe he won't be able to ride the Russian railroads anymore, but he can live with that.

 

(It also occurred to me that the scene between Vasili and Nina plugs into this theme of what you're willing to give up and what you're not: he basically tells her, I can be professional and courteous with you, but I'll never be able to forgive you.)

[RedHawk]

Re. the million offer-- I was confused too but I figure it was a last ditch effort to break him.  I assume that if he'd broken for the million, he would've been killed after.

 

 

I figured that also. That even if he had given them a ton of info, he'd still have gotten a bullet to the head, or the flaming tire. I think he knew he was a goner so he felt free to shout out his principles and die for them.

 

It would be compelling to watch Martha, who I believe is "good and honest and true", mull over setting up someone in her office. She would not have an easy time with that, even with the "Martha's ugly" memory ringing in her ears. 

[stillshimpy]

Most rational people would choose life and spying over certain death.

 

Of course, but those aren't her only choices.  Turning herself into Gaad and facing legal consequences , which would likely be at least lessened in severity if she fully cooperates and discloses everything she knows is another choice.  Offering to try and lay a trap for Phillip would be another.  Every day that she walks in to the FBI offers her a KGB assassin-free-zone and she can choose "not death" in a variety of ways while there.  One of them would be spying, but another would be confessing to her boss or Taffet, or anyone else not in the KGB. 

 

I don't think they are going to turn her into Nina though, so I don't think she'll be a double agent.  

 

But death or disloyalty are not her only options. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by stillshimpy

[sistermagpie]

I feel like Martha has no choice.  It's go along with whatever Clark has in mind or get killed.  She gave up all her choices when she let him know she knows he's not who he says he is.

 

 

Right--but I would say that was the choice. The minute she decided to let Clark try to explain himself she'd obviously chosen him at least somewhat.

 

I thought it was clear that he was telling Martha that she needed to give up on knowing who he is or she'd be killed.  And that he didn't want that to happen and was basically bending the rules for her.

 

 

Yeah, that's how I took it. He's placing her in the position of being her protector.

 

I'm still not trusting Gabriel.  It's possible that Misha does not exist, and now Elizabeth will be even more devoted to Gabriel after he "saves" the non-existent Misha.  She also unintentionally (or otherwise) again revealed Philip's struggles to the higher ups, and is exposing one of his weaknesses.  Philip was careful to show very little reaction upon hearing of Misha being in Afghanistan. I think he distrusts Gabriel almost as much as I do.

 

 

Yes Elizabeth is still trusting Gabriel completely when Philip doesn't at all--note that Philip never asked Gabriel if he could do him a solid and get Mischa to safety. But I don't know if Gabriel would choose to pretend to save Mischa for Elizabeth since she's already on board with the plan. He needs him more to stick it to Philip. I can see him just pretending to Elizabeth that he's trying to do something--and pretending to Philip too.

 

I thought it was telling that Paige was reading MLK's Why We Can't Wait, a book about non-violent protest.  Elizabeth really doesn't get Paige.  Paige doesn't want to just right the wrongs of the world, she wants to do it in a non-violent manner.  She was already disillusioned that Gregory was a drug dealer, imagine how she'll feel about her parents' high body count.

 

 

Well, I do think Elizabeth understands this aspect. It's why she started out by introducing the idea that they did things that were illegal rather than wrong. Of course, there's a big difference between the illegal things nonviolent protesters do (and which Paige already admires via Pastor Tim getting arrested for chaining himself to a fence) and things like necklacing. But Elizabeth needs to bring this stuff up if she expects her to truly go against her own government. She's asking Paige to be a traitor in ways she herself never has been.

 

Why does everyone keep saying that?  She has just as much to offer now as she did when we first met her, and Philip was spending lots of time working her, as "Clark".  I didn't get the impression at all that he was only interested in her in order to work up to having her plant a bug: it seemed like he was getting a lot just from asking her questions.  After all, she's the secretary to the head of the counterintelligence office, so she's going to continue to know things.

 

Yes, people elsewhere were claiming she'd lost all her importance even after the mail robot stopped carrying files! As others said, the real problem is if she chooses to cooperate but at this point I don't think that's a given. Martha change in terms of what she's willing to tell Clark about but at the very least they're now sort of "in it together" on the bug investigation so Clark would want to know how that's coming, if Martha will tell him. If he gets her to where she feels like she's protecting him she would give him updates. If Clark is smart he might even be able to sell them both as victims--he wants to get out but can't, wants to protect Martha but doesn't know if he can.

 

But that's a risk, obviously, if she tells before that. I think next week we've got to see more strategy on this when Philip tells Elizabeth. She will probably immediately note if he's just trying to avoid killing Martha for the usual Philip reasons and she probably wouldn't hesitate to step in in that case, even if she tried to put it off. And Philip could in some ways almost be grateful for that in the long run.

 

So yes, she's terrified and if anything I think she overplayed it with the nonchalance.  No one is that nonchalant when they think they are being interviewed as a potential spy.  No one who is the gatekeeper for the guy whose office was bugged would actually be quite that  wide-eyed and "whatever could you mean? Me? "  about it naturally.

 

 

Exactly. I honestly thought Martha was completely believable--and not perfect for exactly the reasons you stated. She's good at playing dumb and innocent but she can't really hit the right notes of panic that she would have if she was truly innocent.  She's just hiding the different panic she does have.

 

I don't know. Career-wise, wouldn't it be better for Arkady to do the favor this friend of Andropov's is asking for? The guy has real power right now. Why forgo it and hope that Oleg maybe will amount to something serious?

 

 

I think Arkady's stated and shown more than once that he detests the kind of nepotism and croneyism Oleg's father represents. I think he wants to protect Oleg because a) he thinks its the right thing to do and right for his department--it's ridiculous that this guy wants to yank an important member of his team out just so he can feel in control of his family when Arkady has probably never felt that level of control and b) he respect Oleg for not being like his father and thinks he should be encouraged. I don't think it's that political. Obviously he needs to be somewhat political to survive, but he's not a politician. More than once when given a political choice vs. a choice based on what he thought was right, he chose what he thought was right.

Edited March 22, 2015 by sistermagpie

[BetyBee]

 

I think there's one card that Phillip has left aside from offing Martha. He can try to convince her that she can't hide from Walter Taffet forever, that eventually she and the man she loves will both go down for what they've done, and that the only way to stop it is to have someone else take the fall. If it worked, if she agreed to work with him to frame, say, the jittery computer guy, then she's no longer just an innocent dupe but a coconspirator, and he's got her on the hook forever.

This is very interesting.  If this is what happens, I think it's quite likely that it will be Aderholt who gets blamed.  And what a shame that would be.  It seems like Walter Taffet would gladly pin the pen placement on him.  I'd prefer if it was the jittery computer guy with whom we in the audience have no connection who gets blamed!

 

I really feel that we were shown Hans descending the ladder and running from sight for a reason and that reason is that Todd did see him and did recognize him.  That is going to put the Jennings in great danger of being discovered, imo.  I really think that Elizabeth will most certainly scold Hans and to do that, they will meet and perhaps be seen by Todd.  I think Elizabeth and Phillip made a mistake thinking that Todd is scared straight. 

 

This episode was great at setting the table for what I'm sure will be an action packed episode next week. 

[Guest]

Of course, but those aren't her only choices.  Turning herself into Gaad and facing legal consequences , which would likely be at least lessened in severity if she fully cooperates and discloses everything she knows is another choice.  Offering to try and lay a trap for Phillip would be another.  Every day that she walks in to the FBI offers her a KGB assassin-free-zone and she can choose "not death" in a variety of ways while there.  One of them would be spying, but another would be confessing to her boss or Taffet, or anyone else not in the KGB. 

 

I don't think they are going to turn her into Nina though, so I don't think she'll be a double agent.  

 

But death or disloyalty are not her only options. 

 

I agree in principle and would turn myself in in Martha's shoes because it's the only real option and in reality I don't think she'd be in much trouble, especially if they caught Phillip with her help (though I think that ship has sailed).  But I think the writers are going to have Phillip spin it to her that she'll certainly be prosecuted for treason, maybe even executed.  I think Martha will believe she has no options.  The fact that's she's lied so much to Taffett already is probably going to help her believe it's too late to turn herself in and expect to play innocent.  

 

Maybe Phillip will say her family will be killed if she does anything but comply perfectly.  Or the great suggestion below.     

 

 If Clark is smart he might even be able to sell them both as victims--he wants to get out but can't, wants to protect Martha but doesn't know if he can.

 

[Dev F]

This is very interesting.  If this is what happens, I think it's quite likely that it will be Aderholt who gets blamed.  And what a shame that would be.  It seems like Walter Taffet would gladly pin the pen placement on him.  I'd prefer if it was the jittery computer guy with whom we in the audience have no connection who gets blamed!

 

It occurs to me that Gene the computer guy might actually be the perfect patsy. Not only does he seem naturally jittery -- a good way to draw suspicion -- but we know he has a history of bending the rules, since he's the guy who was loaning out bootleg tapes from the evidence room last season. And the Center may actually know about this, since Stan showed one of the borrowed tapes to Nina.

 

What's more, the Center has one particularly damning piece of evidence to implicate Gene as a mole for the KGB: he's the one who printed out the computerized surveillance records that Stan gave to Oleg last season.

[RedHawk]

What's more, the Center has one particularly damning piece of evidence to implicate Gene as a mole for the KGB: he's the one who printed out the computerized surveillance records that Stan gave to Oleg last season.

Great memory, Dev! I forgot those incidents. Would the printouts also implicate Stan? This could get complex

[Umbelina]

I agree Martha knows he's been lying and is not on her side but now she may choose to cooperate in order to remain alive.  The KGB has no reason to keep her alive unless she somehow convinces them she can supply more information, and will.  Maybe.  I'm not sure really where they're going to go with Martha.  

 

I balked at the idea that Gaad makes decisions about the electronic security in his office himself.  In real life, wouldn't all the offices be electronically swept for bugs regularly and have surveillance cameras?  

 

Maybe nowadays it would be automatic, but as someone pretty familiar with Government work?  The buck stops with Gaad, whether it's EEO scheduled speeches, fire drills, or routine bug sweeps.  Things get sloppy unless the head has a calendar of things that need to be done planned out, and follows it.  The amount of paperwork and "mandatory" actions would bury your average Georgetown house in the space of a year. 

<snip>

 

As for why Arkady is willing to go to the wall for Oleg, I think it's another example of the episode's "divestment" theme: I think he genuinely realizes that when push comes to shove, he cares more about his own operation and the people under his command than about the petty politics of the Soviet elite. Maybe he won't be able to ride the Russian railroads anymore, but he can live with that.

 

I really don't understand Arkady, or his motivation.  He's a cog in the machine, going up against a BIGGER cog, for what?  Oleg?  There better be more to this story, I can't buy that it's just marking his territory for the hell of it.  He doesn't strike me as that stupid, and the possible consequences for him are much too dire. 

 

Of course, but those aren't her only choices.  Turning herself into Gaad and facing legal consequences , which would likely be at least lessened in severity if she fully cooperates and discloses everything she knows is another choice.  Offering to try and lay a trap for Phillip would be another.  Every day that she walks in to the FBI offers her a KGB assassin-free-zone and she can choose "not death" in a variety of ways while there.  One of them would be spying, but another would be confessing to her boss or Taffet, or anyone else not in the KGB. 

 

I don't think they are going to turn her into Nina though, so I don't think she'll be a double agent.  

 

But death or disloyalty are not her only options. 

 

Part of me is hoping for the "double agent" thing, but agree it's unlikely.  I don't think she's made any decisions, she's still reeling.  Ditto Philip, he was just buying time, treading water there, he didn't have a plan yet, so winged it with the romance stuff.  That's why they were both wide awake thinking.

<snip>

 

 

Exactly. I honestly thought Martha was completely believable--and not perfect for exactly the reasons you stated. She's good at playing dumb and innocent but she can't really hit the right notes of panic that she would have if she was truly innocent.  She's just hiding the different panic she does have.

 

I don't think that Martha was really all THAT great during her interview with Taffet.  Yes, she held herself together, but I don't find that remarkable.  She's not stupid or flighty, but she also had a lot of tells that we may or may not see.  Taffet though?  Is trained to see them.

 

It occurs to me that Gene the computer guy might actually be the perfect patsy. Not only does he seem naturally jittery -- a good way to draw suspicion -- but we know he has a history of bending the rules, since he's the guy who was loaning out bootleg tapes from the evidence room last season. And the Center may actually know about this, since Stan showed one of the borrowed tapes to Nina.

 

What's more, the Center has one particularly damning piece of evidence to implicate Gene as a mole for the KGB: he's the one who printed out the computerized surveillance records that Stan gave to Oleg last season.

 

Great catch.  I don't think it will be that simple, but yes, Gaad has run a sloppy ship, there may be even more that won't stand up to close scrutiny.

 

Contrast her with Aderholt, who gave very measured and careful responses to actually insulting questions.  Taffet has to know that's a choice on Aderholt's part.  He's trying to be a jackass to him, to get him to show emotion and Aderholt did choose to show an emotion in response.  It just happened to be near serenity in the face of an attempt to provoke.  But Taffet would know "This is how Aderholt reacts to a blatant attempt to provoke:  He chooses to ignore the implicit insults entirely, even when they are purposefully repeated."  

 

<snip>

I liked your whole post but this was just so brilliant and spot on, and put what I felt during that scene into sharp focus.

 

These are interrogation techniques, and also only the first volley of Taffet's. 

[Turtle]

Death is a possible penalty for treason, so Martha turning herself in doesn't necessarily guarantee that she lives. She could just be imprisoned, but once they got to the bottom of everything she's done, especially in the 80's, it's a real possibility she would be executed. If they were able to connect her to Phillio, it'd be almost certain. She really doesn't have any good options here.

[Umbelina]

At the very least, she would lose her job, her income, and I seriously doubt she would get any letters of recommendation.  Her life would be over. 

 

She MIGHT get a reduced sentence for cooperation, not death, maybe only 10 years in prison, but the FBI is pissed, what she did was serious, and "I didn't know" isn't going to fly.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I don't think that Martha was really all THAT great during her interview with Taffet.  Yes, she held herself together, but I don't find that remarkable.  She's not stupid or flighty, but she also had a lot of tells that we may or may not see.  Taffet though?  Is trained to see them.

 

 

Right--I thought she was very believable as an ordinary person deciding to lie and stick with it. I don't think that requires amazing skill or training--especially when Martha's been lying for a while. But that just means she didn't crack and confess or get trapped in any huge contradiction when talking to Taffett. It doesn't mean she completely exonerated herself to him. As the one person who has constant access to Gaad's office and deals with everyday office routines, and sits close to him he'd quite likely see her as the subject to approach most candidly.

[henripootel]

I really don't understand Arkady, or his motivation.  He's a cog in the machine, going up against a BIGGER cog, for what?  Oleg?  There better be more to this story, I can't buy that it's just marking his territory for the hell of it.

 

No way Arkady has the job he has, in pretty much THE plum job overseas, without being a political animal.  True, the KGB promoted talent, but they were as rife with backscratching as we are.  I can only see this as Oleg maybe becoming a big cog in the future vs. his dad who is a big cog in a different area of the government.  If Oleg's dad were enough of a power in his own right, Arkady would have gotten a call from a different person and that woulda been that.

Death is a possible penalty for treason, so Martha turning herself in doesn't necessarily guarantee that she lives.

I'm sure they might threaten her with such but no way Martha gets the death penalty.  We caught several traitors IRL who did real damage, got people killed, and really compromised the safety of the US, and as far as I know they're all in jail.  Robert Hansson is in supermax in Colorado but if there was ever a candidate for a death sentence, this is he.  Well, him and Aldrich Ames, who also got life.

 

Worth noting too how Hansson got caught, meaning anybody with hope that Taffet and his polygraph are gonna catch anyone should think again.  Hansson sold secrets for decades, and in that time passed god knows how many polygraphs, approached the russians after a bit of a hiatus who didn't recognize his codename and filed an official protest because the FBI was obviously trying to hook them in with a bit of obvious bait (the protest wasn't re-examined till after), lived beyond his means, and helped in the hunt for the mole the FBI knew they had.  Out of desperation, they FBI finally just bribed an ex-KGB guy to get the mole's KGB file, and there he was.  Hansson wasn't exactly James Bond and he escaped detection for like 30 years. 

[Umbelina]

henripootel, if you get a chance, go look in the real life spies thread. 

 

One thing I kind of detailed there is that Baer said on that RED DVD commentary was that we will NEVER know the truth about how the "worst" spies were caught, and that everything out there is lies.  From another comment he made, I have a little guess that some of them were known long before "caught" and used for disinformation. 

 

Ha!  I listened to that again, first time in years, right after reading all about Hannsen and Ames (and a few others.)  I remember thinking, "damn, all that reading, and it's all wrong?" 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Umbelina

[Guest]

I feel like the writers might've set Martha up to be just in too deep to try to extricate herself.  (Or divest herself of it, I guess.)  She not only fell for a honey trap, she MARRIED the guy.  She knew he wore a wig.  She'd never been to his apt.  He was rarely home.  He didn't want a family with her.  She bought a ton of goofy lies ad justifications.  All because she was lonely and desperate for love.  She's got to be mortified.  

 

She might even commit suicide before letting the world know how badly she screwed up.  She does have that gun...

[kikaha]

henri, some people can beat the polygraph, but I wonder if Martha is one of them?  Given her panic the day they discovered the bug -- and her deep shame upon realizing how Clark used her as a patsy -- my guess is she isn't. 

 

The US did execute at least two citizens for spying/treason: the Rosenbergs.  That was in the 1950s.  I think you are right that it's very rare though. 

[henripootel]

henri, some people can beat the polygraph, but I wonder if Martha is one of them?  Given her panic the day they discovered the bug -- and her deep shame upon realizing how Clark used her as a patsy -- my guess is she isn't.

 

True.  The whole polygraph experience is designed to do one thing and one thing only: impress the interviewee.  If you think this thing can tell when you're 'hiding something', you might give yourself away.  And it works best with people who get flustered when questioned, like Martha.

The US did execute at least two citizens for spying/treason: the Rosenbergs.  That was in the 1950s.  I think you are right that it's very rare though.

Yep, and they were just couriers, or Julius was.  They guys who did the actual spying weren't executed, but the Rosenburgs wouldn't play ball and admit that they were traitors and give up their contacts.  As far as I know, it wasn't known for absolute sure that they were spies until NSA broke more of the VENONA traffic (from the 40s) in the 1990s.  

[mjc570]

I think that Martha has not been treated as a serious suspect so far because of the sexism rampant in society at that time, and as shown specifically in the FBI office.  She also doesn't fit the stereotype of a "honeypot" type of spy.

 

Edited to add:  I should have been clearer - Martha is exactly the type of person to be a honeypot target, but not the seductress.   I think that, due to her loneliness and the sexist environment at work, Martha was extremely vulnerable, which does not make her stupid. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by mjc570

[Umbelina]

I really doubt Martha could.  Trained spies, maybe.  With practice.  Some psychopaths who can believe their own lies apparently could. 

 

I actually had a polygraph test back in the 80's.  It was part of a class, but I volunteered for the real thing, which took a couple of hours, including the whole pre-exam questioning, the baseline, all of it.  It was, by today's standards, a pretty basic machine.  It was very intimidating to have it hooked up, which is one reason they took quite a bit of time getting me used to the coming questions, and the machine.  They can't get an accurate read unless you are very comfortable, from what I understand, and there are no "surprise!  got ya!" questions involved.

 

http://fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

http://www.damninteresting.com/lie-detectors/

 

It's pretty time consuming, and follow up tests (in real life, not my class) are common.  So it's not as if they can just line people up, and start doing it.  They also take time to analyze. 

I think that Martha has not been treated as a serious suspect so far because of the sexism rampant in society at that time, and as shown specifically in the FBI office.  She also doesn't fit the stereotype of a "honeypot" type of spy.

She certainly would to the CIA though, she's exactly the kind of person they would target overseas. 

 

How sophisticated is the FBI on stuff like this?  It's hard to say, their expertise is domestic stuff.  Today they might join forces with the CIA (forced to with the spy czar coordinating I think) but back then?  Very little crossover.

[henripootel]

I really doubt Martha could.  Trained spies, maybe.  With practice.  Some psychopaths who can believe their own lies apparently could.

Best I know, the notion that it takes a psychopath to 'fool' the poly is a myth.  I know many folks who are required to do polys regularly and sometimes they fail for no apparently good reason.  Since Snowden they've been taking this very seriously but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it - sometimes people are just keyed up, not hiding anything.  They retest and everything is fine.  This suggests to me that ordinary people often 'pass' when they might just as easily have 'failed', which makes me wonder about the whole process. 

[Umbelina]

I thought I might be able to, but the process was so intimidating, I didn't even try.

 

Apparently one way is to concentrate on one strong emotion and keep yourself constant that way.

 

The one thing I remember about the guy who did mine?  He made it very clear to us that many polygraphs are not done properly, with adequate pre time (the whole going through the questions in the same way and order over and over again first, etc.) and follow up.  Even the tone of voice of the questioner never changes, for example.  They are (were?) pretty time consuming, and boring.  Also, of course, all yes/no.

 

Is your name Umbelina?

Is it Tuesday?

Do you have a sister?

We you born in 1901?

Did you put a listening device in Gaad's pen?

Are you married?

Do you have a daughter?

Did anyone ask you to put a listening device in Gaad's pen?

Were you born in Chicago?

Have you ever stolen something at work?

Do you own a television set?

 

endless, and then repeat them all several times.

[Chaos Theory]

Death is a possible penalty for treason, so Martha turning herself in doesn't necessarily guarantee that she lives. She could just be imprisoned, but once they got to the bottom of everything she's done, especially in the 80's, it's a real possibility she would be executed. If they were able to connect her to Phillio, it'd be almost certain. She really doesn't have any good options here.

 

Only if you are useless and are a continued traitor to the united states.....or well political reasons.  There would be no reason to execute Martha.  The FBI would use her the same way Clark did.  Possibly get her to continue the farce of a marriage but under their terms and watchful eye.  Despite what we would like to think I don't think the FBI would immediately arrest Philip and Elizabeth.  Its the cold war and there is a reason it is called that.  Having Martha as a double agent would actually be an interesting story.  Clark thinking he was playing her but her playing him while being played by the FBI.....ah drama.   Martha would be more useful to the FBI alive and after....well they would leave her life in ruins.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

California has the "University of California" system, of which Berkeley and UCLA are a part of. It is headed by Janet Napolitano, former Dept. of Homeland Security secretary.

 

And California has the 23-campus "California State University" system, which is less prestigious than the University of California.

Two possibilities: the interrogator made the mistake himself (i.e., it was a deliberate writing choice), or the writers meant lower case "state" as in general CA public universities, not meant to distinguish between the U of C schools and the CSU schools.

 

Maybe she realizes how dangerous it would be to make him nervous, so she played along but intends to run to Taffett first thing in the morning?

Maybe but I doubt Phillip will let her return to the office ever again.

[Umbelina]

I don't think either Martha OR Clark had a solid plan together about what they would do.  That's why they were both still wide awake. 

 

Clark bought some time to think, and so did she, but that's about it.

[SlackerInc]

Every day that she walks in to the FBI offers her a KGB assassin-free-zone 

 

I love this line!  So well put.

 

I really don't understand Arkady, or his motivation.  He's a cog in the machine, going up against a BIGGER cog, for what?  Oleg?  There better be more to this story, I can't buy that it's just marking his territory for the hell of it.  He doesn't strike me as that stupid, and the possible consequences for him are much too dire. 

 

My impression is that people have gotten too extreme a viewpoint about what it was like behind the Iron Curtain.  During Stalin's purges, or in Mao's China during the Cultural Revolution, okay.  But I really think the rest of the time (which is the majority), it was a more ordinary bureaucracy, and people were not risking death or imprisonment by standing up for themselves and their institutional prerogatives, as long as there was nothing explicitly treasonous about their position.

 

And it works best with people who get flustered when questioned, like Martha.

 

It's really interesting to me how differently different viewers are seeing this.  What I saw was someone who got very flustered when around the office: by the filing cabinet, talking with fellow employees, or in the elevator.  But also someone who was incredibly non-flustered when questioned.  Literally "incredibly", as in I found it hard to believe.  To me it seemed like Alison Wright, talented actor, was suddenly doing a different project where she was tasked with delivering the words in the script as an innocent person who was being completely honest under questioning.  I felt like she probably should have known better, and the director should have asked her to revert a little more to the flustered nature she showed in other scenes.  But obviously YMMV!

Edited March 22, 2015 by SlackerInc

[Guest]

I don't think either Martha OR Clark had a solid plan together about what they would do.  That's why they were both still wide awake. 

 

Clark bought some time to think, and so did she, but that's about it.

Yes but wouldn't Phillip have to have a pre-existing plan for this eventuality?  I figured the plan was 'kill her if she's onto you' because really what else can he do?  He can't keep her out of the office unless she calls in sick and even that will seem fishy after a couple days, if not sooner, given Taffet's investigation.  If he lets her go in, he's got to have a pretty strong threat to keep her silent, like killing her parents or something, right?  

 

Plus if either of them falls asleep there is plenty of reason for the other to just kill them that night.  I'm thinking neither will sleep.  

 

Kind of odd they appeared to have had sex.  I guess what do you do when you can't talk or sleep or leave or kill each other, though.  But I think Martha would be less than in the mood for his physically comforting her, knowing she's been duped all along.  

[sistermagpie]

Kind of odd they appeared to have had sex.  I guess what do you do when you can't talk or sleep or leave or kill each other, though.  But I think Martha would be less than in the mood for his physically comforting her, knowing she's been duped all along.

 

 

That's assuming that Martha just didn't at all believe him when he said he loved her, and maybe she did. He didn't buy himself time by saying it was a misunderstanding or something, he basically turned it into a love story. So if went along with that sex might be natural. It's only after that that Martha's left back with her fears. His cover story is that this is even more dramatic a love story than she originally thought.

[Umbelina]

Yes but wouldn't Phillip have to have a pre-existing plan for this eventuality?  I figured the plan was 'kill her if she's onto you' because really what else can he do?  He can't keep her out of the office unless she calls in sick and even that will seem fishy after a couple days, if not sooner, given Taffet's investigation.  If he lets her go in, he's got to have a pretty strong threat to keep her silent, like killing her parents or something, right?  

 

Plus if either of them falls asleep there is plenty of reason for the other to just kill them that night.  I'm thinking neither will sleep.  

 

Kind of odd they appeared to have had sex.  I guess what do you do when you can't talk or sleep or leave or kill each other, though.  But I think Martha would be less than in the mood for his physically comforting her, knowing she's been duped all along.  

As I've said before, killing Martha really isn't a simple solution, forget morally, think strategically.  Unless the somehow get her to board KAL 007 in a few months.

 

The KGB has been stretching Philip REALLY thin, and they've even kind of mentioned it a few times lately.  He should have been prepared for the bug being found, and probably at one point he really was, but there has been a lot of water under the bridge since then. 

 

Lately, he's been pretty distracted.  New handler (well, old one, but they've been through 3 now in a short time.)  The Paige situation is his biggest stress, but he's also grooming Kim, has to maintain the on-going thing with Martha (where, yeah, he may have become much too complacent)  and they throw the whole South African thing on him, while also telling him his son is fighting in Afghanistan!  That's a lot.  I've obviously left out other risky stuff the KGB has been having them do, that we, and they, have said is really not conducive to maintaining cover, let alone being calm, cool, and collected after they threaten his children.

My impression is that people have gotten too extreme a viewpoint about what it was like behind the Iron Curtain.  During Stalin's purges, or in Mao's China during the Cultural Revolution, okay.  But I really think the rest of the time (which is the majority), it was a more ordinary bureaucracy, and people were not risking death or imprisonment by standing up for themselves and their institutional prerogatives, as long as there was nothing explicitly treasonous about their position.

 

During 15 months in office, Andropov dismissed 18 ministers, and 37 first secretaries of obkoms, kraikoms and Central Committees of Communist Parties of Soviet Republics; criminal cases on highest party and state officials were started.  He wasn't exactly a pussycat.  Also, Arkady's predecessor was just booted to a post in Siberia, after a stint in prison probably, until they found out he was set up, so Arkady really seems to be playing with fire, and for what?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Umbelina

[Guest]

That's assuming that Martha just didn't at all believe him when he said he loved her, and maybe she did. He didn't buy himself time by saying it was a misunderstanding or something, he basically turned it into a love story. So if went along with that sex might be natural. It's only after that that Martha's left back with her fears. His cover story is that this is even more dramatic a love story than she originally thought.

 

It's such a cool scene, there are many ways to interpret it.  My own take at this point is that the 'love story' was bs and she knew it.  I think it was Phillip's way of saying, "This is where I'm supposed to kill you, but I think you're a decent person and I'd like to find some way not to, but to do that you'll need to stop asking questions immediately, and just keep pretending we're a happy couple for now."  

 

Or not.  I just listened to the insiders podcast.  Alison Wright and the writers started out saying Martha has had no reason to suspect Clark all this time.  Then they said she subconsciously knows, which is why she reacted with panic when the bug was found.  Then they implied she's in denial now, where it was left, but that it was purposely ambiguous.  Hm.  

 

I didn't know Wright is British.  

 

Just interesting asides- They also had the stunt coordinator on.  The Venter actor is South African and has witnessed necklacings.  Ick.  The Hans actor's father is S.A., too.  Venter's name was originally Vetter til the actor told them it meant 'asshole'.  They even had to re-record some dialog to change it.  The stuntman burned twice for 40 seconds each.  I didn't watch any of the scene.  The actor who lit him up was dying to do it himself so they let him instead of getting a stuntman.   

Edited March 22, 2015 by Guest

[Dev F]

Great memory, Dev! I forgot those incidents.

 

Thanks, I wish I could credit my fantastic memory, but the truth is that I thought it was weird that this new computer guy seemed to suddenly materialize out of nowhere just when they needed a suspicious character about, and I checked IMDb to find out if he'd ever appeared previously. I was surprised to see that he'd actually shown up a couple times as a very minor character I'd forgotten about.

 

Though it does seem like his character has been repositioned a little bit in the service of this new storyline. Looking back at his scenes last season, I get the impression that he was originally supposed to be a records clerk posted in some dark corner elsewhere in the building; it was only in "Walter Taffet" that he was shown to have his own computer area within Gaad's department. Perhaps he got a convenient promotion as the bureau became more computerized?

 

Would the printouts also implicate Stan? This could get complex

 

I didn't look like Stan had to log in anywhere or sign any paperwork to pull the surveillance files; Gene was super eager to show off the new recordkeeping software and printed out the files from a terminal at which he was already working, and then Stan was all "I can take it from here" when the pages came up on the printer.

 

Of course, Stan would know that the files actually came from him rather than Gene, and I can't imagine he'd just stand by and let an innocent man go up the river in his place. That could present an interesting dilemma, and prevent the whole thing from being too pat a solution to Phillip's problem.

 

During 15 months in office, Andropov dismissed 18 ministers, and 37 first secretaries of obkoms, kraikoms and Central Committees of Communist Parties of Soviet Republics; criminal cases on highest party and state officials were started.  He wasn't exactly a pussycat.  Also, Arkady's predecessor was just booted to a post in Siberia, after a stint in prison probably, until they found out he was set up, so Arkady really seems to be playing with fire, and for what?

 

Best case scenario? Oleg stays with Line X and eventually his work allows the Soviets to unlock the secrets to Stealth. That would be a huge win for the rezidentura, one that would more than up for having displeased a grumpy railroad minister.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Dev F

[kikaha]

Umbelina, I read your points, and still think the Soviets can't afford to let Martha live.  She's under investigation.  The slightest mis-step can trip her up, dooming P&E and maybe a lot more of the KGB operation in America. 

 

Calling in the cleaners has its risks, of course.  But they seem to me a lot less than sticking with the status quo.  And the KGB can do a lot to mitigate those risks.  Martha's parents seem to me the biggest problem. 

 

Well, I think we'll find out pretty soon how all this plays out. 

[RedHawk]

Another clue to the level of Martha's denial yet unconscious knowledge that Clark wasn't who he said he was was that she's known for a long time that he wears a toupee. She told him she knew, and yet she's never asked to see him without it.

Wouldn't it be a natural thing to say to your husband, "Hey, you can take that off with me just like you must do on the nights when you're home alone." Now, we know for filming purposes we couldn't have a scene where she does that because Philip isn't bald underneath, etc. The writers did have it come up, however, and at the time I thought it was just to avoid criticism from viewers that she'd be stupid not to notice a wig.

But it works for the story that she hasn't asked to see "the real Clark", saying something like, "Clark, and I want you to feel completely comfortable with me just as you are. You can trust that I'll still love you."

I think it's an example of allowing herself to see him as he wanted her to see him. She always knew she was buying an illusion. She rationalized it one way -- that he was insecure about his hair loss -- but now that reality has hit her, she realizes that what she told herself was a vanity toupee has actually been a disguise.

[SlackerInc]

I still remember an episode of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (hey, it was fun for like one season and then grew tiresome, don't judge me) in which they talked a bald guy into giving up his toupee and just cropping his hair really short on the sides and back.  But his mom was really against it, and though his wife was cool with it, she had never seen him without it!  They had been married for years, had school-aged kids, etc.  He seemed to keep his hairpiece (which he did apparently glue on to some degree at least) on the level of toilet paper (or at least the way my wife and I treat TP): his wife certainly knew he was using it, but never actually witnessed it.

 

So: plausible.

Edited March 22, 2015 by SlackerInc

[sistermagpie]

I think it's an example of allowing herself to see him as he wanted her to see him. She always knew she was buying an illusion. She rationalized it one way -- that he was insecure about his hair loss -- but now that reality has hit her, she realizes that what she told herself was a vanity toupee has actually been a disguise.

 

 

I agree with SlackerInc that this is very plausible that she hasn't asked him to remove it. She's a kind person and naturally thought he was insecure about his hairloss. If he doesn't want her to see him without it, she thinks she knows the innocent reason why.

 

And she probably still thinks that. There's no reason that Clark's toupee has to be a disguise in her eyes. He can be a shady guy lying about who he's working for with a vanity toupee.

[Guest]

I half-expected Clark to tell Martha he had lost his job months before and was too embarrassed to tell her, or he just made up the job to feel important.  And/or he had another wife is the real reason he couldn't live with her full time.  Awful, but it beats the truth.  

 

I feel like Martha did tell him he didn't have to wear the wig around her, but she accepted his decision to.  But I feel like things are all coming together in her mind now and she's realizing she's overlooked an awful lot.  

 

In her shoes, I think I would've followed him 'home' once (not that he wouldn't have spotted her) or hired a PI at some point before marrying him but who knows.   

 

I wish they'd give Phillip a Welsh identity but I guess viewers would wonder how a Russian who speaks great English/American also picked up a perfect Welsh brogue.

[RedHawk]

I feel like Martha did tell him he didn't have to wear the wig around her, but she accepted his decision to.  But I feel like things are all coming together in her mind now and she's realizing she's overlooked an awful lot.

 

 

That's what I meant in my post. Not that it was strange or wrong that she'd never asked him to take it off. Now that she's thinking over all that she knows and doesn't know about him, she may be realizing that she accepted the toupee as a vanity thing when it may actually be a disguise thing. 

[Umbelina]

It will be interesting to see what they come up with to solve this.

 

It's not an easy problem.  For example, I can't imagine Martha's parents never told anyone that Martha was married.  I don't care if they were cautioned, that's a pretty hard secret to keep, and they probably don't realize why it would matter to tell a friend. 

 

With so much attention focused on that office, anyone that suddenly died would be suspect number one, especially Martha, who had frequent access to Gaad's office.

 

So they kill Martha, and her parents, "clean" the apartment, or burn it to the ground, which would possibly take care of neighbors who may have seen Philip come or go, or overheard something through the walls or door.  Let the FBI know it WAS Martha, but not find the connection?  Sounds pretty drastic, even for this show.

 

We are in early 1983 now right, since they skipped over Christmas (kind of an odd choice, given the Paige story BTW.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_in_the_United_States 

 

There is still the chance that Philip could pretend to be working for a friendly government, MI6 or something. 

 

I keep coming back to faking Philip's death as being the easiest option.  They'd still have to sweep the parent's home, unless the wedding picture isn't clear of him.  I don't remember it!  Has anyone been able to find a screen shot of that?

[curbcrusher]

A few of my thoughts:

 

Clark/Martha - I don't know that Martha immediately goes KGB in her head. I think someone mentioned last week that he could go the journalist route, and thinking about it this week, I wonder if he might go the CIA route. Clark claims to be CIA looking for an FBI mole, he shows Martha the printouts that were given to Oleg from the office last year. Promises to get her out of there and into a CIA gig. Martha becomes the person that answers all the KGB phones and stuff, gets paid by direct deposit and a pay slip the KGB dummies up as being from the CIA. Clark, because he did such a bang up job gets sent overseas on assignment, dies and Martha never sees him again.

 

Paige - One the things that struck me last when Elizabeth told Paige there were civil rights activist and the Paige passed that on to Phillip was his reaction. I wondered if part of his reaction is "we are still lying to her." Elizabeth and Phillip are not now, nor have ever been civil rights activist, they are agents of a foreign government attempting to use others to bring down their enemy. While Elizabeth seems to have drunk the koolaid and thinks they are the side of good, Phillip seems a bit more cynical and realistic in realizing that they are soldiers being moved about in a larger game. I think this was partially reinforced when the ANC guy was introduced and Elizabeth said he was from Moscow, and Phillips response was something along the likes that he must be a communist. This was further brought to our attention when the South African guy was getting necklaced, and he called out to the ANC guy something along the lines " they don't care about you or the county, they just want the gold and diamonds."

 

Phillips Radio -  I know when I was kid in the 70's we had a radio that looked just like that, and I think I saw it this weekend while I was visiting my parents.

 

Office Supplies - Talking about that pen and an "office supply" seemed out of place to me. The government offices I interacted with in the late 70s and 80s all had these cheap black ball point pens with the clickers on them that said "U.S. Government" on the side. I know my dad always had them in his pocket from the office, and most of the office that I visited and had to fill out paperwork seemed to have boxes of those things.

 

Security Cameras - I know Taffett is blaming Gaad for the lack of security cameras, but from my experience they were not prevalent in the mid 80s. I worked in a fairly secure area  for a 3 letter agency in 85 after graduating college and there were cameras to enter and leave the building, but within the secure area where we worked and the SCIF there were no cameras. I think a little modernism might have sneaked in to the writing.

[RedHawk]

They'd still have to sweep the parent's home, unless the wedding picture isn't clear of him.  I don't remember it!  Has anyone been able to find a screen shot of that?

 

 

Not sure one exists. I jokingly mentioned Martha sending her parents "an 8x10 of the wedding photo" in an earlier post. Mostly just meant that Martha would want to get the largest size AND send one to her parents, even if they had to hide it from display, like in their bedroom or something. Maybe Philip found some way out of a photo being taken.

[Guest]

It will be interesting to see what they come up with to solve this.

 

It's not an easy problem.  For example, I can't imagine Martha's parents never told anyone that Martha was married.  I don't care if they were cautioned, that's a pretty hard secret to keep, and they probably don't realize why it would matter to tell a friend. 

 

So they kill Martha, and her parents, "clean" the apartment, or burn it to the ground, which would possibly take care of neighbors who may have seen Philip come or go, or overheard something through the walls or door.  Let the FBI know it WAS Martha, but not find the connection?  Sounds pretty drastic, even for this show.

 

Hm, would they need to clean the apt or worry about neighbors or even her parents or photos?  I was thinking if she died in a car accident, if Taffett investigated and found out she had a secret husband, would he really be able to somehow find Phillip?  He's heavily disguised.  They have sketches of him in various disguises already.  What's one more?  

[Umbelina]

Fingerprints, hair samples, it's not as if Philip hasn't committed other crimes, and while they may not have his on file, they could connect him.  Even if he IS disguised (though not "heavily") just the idea of Martha keeping company with a man would cause the FBI to keep investigating.  Hell, someone could have seen her enter his apartment too.  It's just so very messy.

 

Thanks for the answer about the wedding photo!  So many are talking about it, I thought I must have missed something.  I can't imagine Philip letting that happen.

 

Oh, and Martha specifically said that Gaad's pen didn't come from the office supplies.  I got the idea it was his own personal special pen, perhaps a gift, or he just likes expensive pens.

 

Believe me, I'm not sold on the whole "Clark dies" thing either.  No matter what they do, I don't think this one will be easy.  Interesting idea with the reporter excuse, I think Martha is beyond believing anything now though, but who knows?

Edited March 23, 2015 by Umbelina

[Guest]

 

Do you think the show can play it off as 'heavily' disguised, though.  Rhys said they even draw lines onto his face as part of his Clark disguise.  I'm guessing too since Phillip has no record they'd have nothing to connect to fingerprints or dna.  I'm not sure, though.  Interesting to think about!  

[Umbelina]

I'm kind of going by spy stuff I've been reading, and also listening to from Robert Baer on that RED dvd commentary.  He talks about disguises quite a bit there. 

 

"Light" is glasses, wig, contact lenses, clothes or uniforms, beard or mustache (hell in hot climates he says, the glue melts) and things like odd teeth or a mole or scar, lifts in shoes, that kind of thing, most easily removable.  Also, "light" cover might include "pocket litter" such as driver's license, a credit card, photo of disguised self with family or dog, just stuff people would normally carry, but nothing fool proof to another agency, enough to pass normally though

 

"Heavy cover" is the full or partial face masks latex stuff, some with built in substances to confuse face recognition bone structure features, body make up (one white guy was made "black" by all of that in Africa,) which he describes in a really funny way.  Also body prosthetics to change someone's shape would be considered "heavy" cover.  Heavy cover would also include full job history readily available or documented, phones set up to be "mom in Omaha" and the like, mortgage history, passports, and enough back up to possibly fool a serious inquiry by cops or agencies.

 

Oh, and no, neither of them could use heavy cover with marks they are sleeping with, obviously.  They could on specific "in and out" jobs though.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Oh, and Martha specifically said that Gaad's pen didn't come from the office supplies.  I got the idea it was his own personal special pen, perhaps a gift, or he just likes expensive pens.

 

 

I think we saw the pen come directly from Philip. Gaad probably just found it in his office and didn't think about where it came from. At first I think it was just on a shelf but later he started using it.

[Turtle]

Umbelina, I read your points, and still think the Soviets can't afford to let Martha live.  She's under investigation.  The slightest mis-step can trip her up, dooming P&E and maybe a lot more of the KGB operation in America.

 

But killing her right after the bug was found would catch the interest of the FBI for sure, and although he was careful, there's no guarantee that they couldn't find Phillip with a lot of digging.  Having her keep working there is also dangerous for Phillip lest she be detected.  I think the best choice is to keep a really close eye on her, stay with her more often, and in a few months have her have an accident.  No way Martha can live forever because there's no way to know she won't break at some point, but killing her immediately would raise too much suspicion.  

 

I've never taken a lie detector test, but there's a reason they're not allowed as evidence in court - they're notoriously unreliable, and I'm pretty sure that was known in the 80s.  It just measures changes in heartbeat, breathing, etc.  If Martha was a nervous wreck altogether about taking the polygraph, it would be very difficult for them to get anything other than an inconclusive result.  And although she has at times seemed cool under pressure, I've always thought she was really nervous and stressed about not just the spying but also about basically everything in her life.  She's just a nervous Nelly (apologies to any Nellys out there).  It's possible that her pulse, etc. would be all over the place even on the "What's your name?" questions, and so her lies wouldn't be noticeably different from her truths.  

 

Who knows.  I do love thinking about and discussing it, though. 

[Boundary]

Martha will only survive if she becomes extremely valuable to one party (of course that makes her extremely dangerous to the other). So she has to be careful which side she picks. Like I've said before, she has to play only for Team Martha, just like Nina when she faced this same situation. Actually, Nina at first agreed to Stan's plan to frame Vasili and she flipped to the KGB's side when it became obvious Stan wasn't going to deliver and that Arkady might actually give her a chance. Knowing Arkady was crucial (being hot was too, as well as ability to manipulate and hide it). Martha, one would assume, knows Gaad just as well but people like Taffett and Stan will have a say in this, as well as the CIA and military intelligence. Philip and Elizabeth are pretty big fish; it also makes them extremely dangerous. If she indicates to them she's sided with the FBI, then P&E or their people will get to her. If she actually talks to the the FBI then the Russians won't hesitate kill her (even while in protective custody) not only to cut short any infor she might pass on but also for revenge.

 

That is why Martha's move to tell Clark about the bug was a very smart one. Philip was already suspicious (though blaming it on the adoption issue). By confessing and seemingly being on his side, Martha bought time. The KGB can't off her now without arousing suspicion but that can't last, so she needs another string on her bow. As suggested she could frame someone else Nina-style, buying herself even more time. She could then become a proper spy for a while, without the scrutiny of the bug situation. I can't speculate beyond that, but if Martha was playing only for Team Martha, that's what she should do. Eventually it'll end in tears but if she doesn't make herself valuable to the Russians right now she's toast as soon as the chance crops up.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Boundary

[Turtle]

Excellent points, Boundary.  But Nina was stationed overseas, in enemy territory, with a very supportive boss.  As you said, there will be a lot more people involved in dealing with Martha; Gaad won't be able to protect her the way Arkady was able to somewhat protect Nina.  Ideally for Martha's sake, she would be able to frame someone else for the pen, tell Clark that she needs to keep a low profile for a while but will get him more info when the heat dies down, and then actually keep that low profile in the office until it blows over.  Shitty to do to a coworker, but might work for Martha.  If she can manage to not raise any more suspicion at the FBI, the KGB might still see her as an asset, and so she lives.  Or she could borrow one of Clark's disguises and disappear to Canada.

[Dev F]

I think we saw the pen come directly from Philip. Gaad probably just found it in his office and didn't think about where it came from. At first I think it was just on a shelf but later he started using it.

 

Yeah, originally Martha hid it behind a framed photo on his shelf, but when Gaad almost lost his job last season, it got packed up with the rest of his things, and when he was reinstated it ended up in his desk instead.

[RedheadZombie]

 She's asking Paige to be a traitor in ways she herself never has been.

 

This is such a brilliant point.  Elizabeth is fighting and killing for the country she was born and raised in.  She is doing this for everyone she has ever known and loved.  If Paige starting working for the KGB, she will be fighting and betraying the only country she's ever known.  She's fighting against her way of life, and the lives of everyone she's ever cared about.  And the country she would be working for, is America's #1 enemy, and she would have been exposed to anti-Soviet sentiment from school and society in general.

[kikaha]

This is such a brilliant point.  Elizabeth is fighting and killing for the country she was born and raised in.  She is doing this for everyone she has ever known and loved.  If Paige starting working for the KGB, she will be fighting and betraying the only country she's ever known.  She's fighting against her way of life, and the lives of everyone she's ever cared about.  And the country she would be working for, is America's #1 enemy, and she would have been exposed to anti-Soviet sentiment from school and society in general.

 

It's a real good point, and it raises another in my mind.  Given who Elizabeth is, how could she raise children without at least subliminally planting the seeds of of communism into their fabric?  She wouldn't have to risk exposing herself in any way.  Just lead her kids (subtly if needed) down the path of her own beliefs.  Whether or not she is grooming them to become Soviet spies, she'd want them to know the 'truth' about the world -- i.e. the truth she so fervently believes in.