S01.E15: Out Of Time

[driedfruit]

As for the Iris hate debate, I love Iris and she is my favorite character, but I think there are definitely understandable, defensible reasons to not like her. She is the worst written character in the show (outside maybe Eddie but only because he's basically invisible). Plus, sometimes when you hate a character everything they do bothers you. The opposite is also true, sometimes when you love a character you are very protective of them and can't see the real flaws they have.

 

There is no doubt that in some places the Iris hate is OTT and largely race based, but I have not seen that here and I don't think it's fair to assume everyone that criticizes Iris is doing it for a more nefarious reason than they just don't like the character because everyone has different opinions.

 

In nearly every fandom for a show/book with a male protagonist, his main love interest (wife, ex-gf, crush) is always irrationally hated, vehemently and very loudly. And some of these women are well written (Skylar White, Betty Draper, Egwene Al'vere... Now even Claire Underwood is getting a ton of hate). There's literally no reason for this other than fandom's deep seeded misogyny.

 

While the hate isn't as outrageous here, it's still OTT in proportion to Iris' actions. Predictably so.

 

Oh and I disagree with Iris being the worst written. Her actions and choices actually make sense within her character, unlike many of the others.

Edited March 24, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

With the way Joe keeps Iris in the dark, I think Iris' mother was told a secret then died. That's why Iris can never be told anything. Secrets kill. lol.

Ha! I can get behind that.

Pretty sure there are lots of examples of female love interests who are well liked and males who were disliked but it doesn't pertain to this episode and I seem to recall discussing at some point in the past anyways. But if there are too many female love interests who are disliked, I think it is because of poor writing of the type we've been discussing (and in some cases poor casting).

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shanna

[driedfruit]

Pretty sure there are lots of examples of female love interests who are well liked and males who were disliked but it doesn't pertain to this episode and I seem to recall discussing at some point in the past anyways. But if there are too many female love interests who are disliked, I think it is because of poor writing of the type we've been discussing (and in some cases poor casting).

 

When? Where? Male love interests never get that sort of treatment for just existing. There are rare cases of male characters being hated, but that's almost always due to them being canonically awful.

 

Are you seriously suggesting misogyny isn't a big issue in fandom, even here, (have you been to the Arrow board?)?

Edited March 24, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

I'm female and I can't stand laurel. Because she a bad character played by a bad actress not everything is misogyny. (For male love interests: Riley. Always and forever). But as I said, this is the episode thread. Wrong thread for this discussion.

For this episode, lots of people were annoying. Including the entire history of the flash comic book for bringing in timey wimeyness that makes my head hurt.

Speaking of, isn't it really weird that wells is Eddie decendent from hundreds of years in the future? What possible purpose does that serve? It's awfully convenient and it makes no sense that grudges would be held so far in the future. And Eddie is no scientist to Invent things that might tie the two together. And does this mean wells isn't a genius he just has future knowledge?

Edited March 24, 2015 by Shanna

[driedfruit]

I was responding to peachmangosteen's comment about characters being irrationally hated. And to be clear I don't fault any one person for hating Iris (or Laurel) as a misogynist. I'm talking about fandom trends and how irrational hatred isn't random.

 

But that aside, we really need a thread that addresses gender issues in Flash as the writing itself is egregiously sexist in certain places. Joe's mentality regarding Iris. Caitlin's comments to Barry about deserving a peek. Barry's nice guy bs...

Edited March 24, 2015 by driedfruit

[AudienceofOne]

In nearly every fandom for a show/book with a male protagonist, his main love interest (wife, ex-gf, crush) is always irrationally hated, vehemently and very loudly. And some of these women are well written (Skylar White, Betty Draper, Egwene Al'vere... Now even Claire Underwood is getting a ton of hate). There's literally no reason for this other than fandom's deep seeded misogyny.

 

 

Pretty much. But it doesn't take a male protagonist - look at some of the irrational misogynistic hate directed at the Good Wife (based, ironically, on the same double standards the show itself is about) or Sookie from True Blood (hello again, double standards) or every one of your examples (oh look, there's those double standards again). And don't get me started on some of the appalling misogynism around Juliette from Grimm. 

 

But that aside, we really need a thread that addresses gender issues in Flash as the writing itself is egregiously sexist in certain places.

 

 

Exactly. And I can't speak for others, but all my comments on the issue have been around the poor writing regarding her character and the way the other characters treat her in the script. So just because we live in an extremely sexist culture where some people want women to fit neatly into the nun/whore dichotomy and can't handle complexity or extra dimensions, doesn't mean criticism of her character isn't warranted. Because, frankly, it's the placement of her character squarely into this dichotomy that's the real problem with this show. Pretty common with female characters from comic books but still worth railing against.

 

Caitlin's comments to Barry about deserving a peek

 

 

Well, it was his reward for being a "nice guy". *dies a little inside*.

[peachmangosteen]

With the way Joe keeps Iris in the dark, I think Iris' mother was told a secret then died. That's why Iris can never be told anything. Secrets kill. lol.

 

I like it!

 

But that aside, we really need a thread that addresses gender issues in Flash as the writing itself is egregiously sexist in certain places. Joe's mentality regarding Iris. Caitlin's comments to Barry about deserving a peek. Barry's nice guy bs...

 

This I agree with!

 

And I can't speak for others, but all my comments on the issue have been around the poor writing regarding her character and the way the other characters treat her in the script. So just because we live in an extremely sexist culture where some people want women to fit neatly into the nun/whore dichotomy and can't handle complexity or extra dimensions, doesn't mean criticism of her character isn't warranted. Because, frankly, it's the placement of her character squarely into this dichotomy that's the real problem with this show. Pretty common with female characters from comic books but still worth railing against.

 

Also this!

 

And great post from SweetTooth above.

Edited March 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[AD35]

 

I think it's kind of like how you don't want to run from preditors. He thought if he stayed still maybe he could argue his way out of it. If he had run, that would have made wells attack him immediately. He also could have been stalling I hopes that someone would come. I do think that was probably his best bet, unless he had some sort of weapon.

 

That would have been the only realistic option Cisco would have had at that moment. And as for the absolute zero weapon that he made, I would have assumed Wells/Thawne would have disabled it the first opportunity he got. When Cisco first mentioned its existence Wells/Thawne did get angry.  I'm sure it had more to do removing any possible threats to himself than keeping Barry safe.

Edited March 24, 2015 by AD35

[wayne67]

That would have been the only realistic option Cisco would have had at that moment. And as for the absolute zero weapon that he made, I would have assumed Wells/Thawne would have disabled it the first opportunity he got. When Cisco first mentioned its existence Wells/Thawne did get angry.  I'm sure it had more to do removing any possible threats to himself than keeping Barry safe.

 

He did seem more concerned about Barry's safety. I'd imagine it's because he needs Barry to complete some sort of time Paradox to ensure his own survival. Or at least that's my headcanon at the moment until show canon replaces that guess.

[Bandolero]

Great post SweetTooth. You said everything I wanted to say... but so much better. Very well said. 

[CabotCove]

I think the travesty is that many shows feel merely making the actress pretty and desirable, is enough. They don't take the time to round out the character, as merely the hero being in love with her should be enough to prove just how awesome she is. That's a trap a lot of shows get into.

 

I know this show has a lot to get right in writing female characters, but really "they are only relying on making the actress/character pretty and desirable"? No I dont agree, Iris is one character whose life was more planned and mapped out from the very beginning, second to Barry of course. We know about her family, that she was studying while working part time as a waitress, she became a reporter. She has a steady boyfriend, she is the lead's best friend and has a loving relationship with Dad.  It just seems to me that just because she isnt in the know or part of  the Flash superhero business she cant get recognition for her own independent development & arc. Interesting history pretty much repeats itself, its quite similar to the complains about Laurel on Arrow when she was in a similar situation. And besides having her own independent development, technically Iris is part of Team Flash, a likely honorary member.  Since Barry seeks her out as the Flash to help him with cases, so that has to count for something right.

 

However, I'm not blind to the fact that she's held to a different standard than other characters on the show. Just look at how much she's been talked about in this thread.

 

Exactly, no character is off limits to be criticized , I wouldnt want it any other way, but  there is a point were for one character its way too much and others  don't get the same amount of backlash for similar actions, if at all. So yeah it would seem like they are an easy target  and held to a different standard. If this is just left to escalate, honestly this place could easily turn into the Arrow board, with one character Laurel (or recently 2 ie Ray) being consistently bashed in every thread, every single day. We are far from being there but with time could easily be. I hope not, because Its been awesome and pleasant here, to have varied discussion about different characters without any extreme bashing, everywhere on board so far. Relaxed and welcoming atmosphere.  Its Ok NOT to like a character, i just dont think its necessary to bash them repeatedly over and over again, for one thing it could possibly start to feel unpleasant for those who like the character or are neutral Imo. 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Conell

[smices]

I agree. Like how the Supernatural board on TWOP was a Sam bashfest, or the Grimm board is a "We hate Juliet" rallying center. And of course the Laurel hate.

 

Groupthink is never any fun.

Edited March 25, 2015 by smices

[CabotCove]

Groupthink is never any fun.

 

Nod. Thats about the right term for it alright.

[Actionmage]

We know about her family, that she was studying while working part time as a waitress, she became a reporter. She has a steady boyfriend, she is the lead's best friend and has a loving relationship with Dad.

 

 

*We know practically nothing about her family except that Joe is her extremely overprotective father and that she had a mother at some point. Nothing even in passing or pictures in the background about other family members such as grandparents, aunts/uncles or cousins of either Joe or Mom's side. We know Joe and Iris took in eleven year old Barry.

*Iris was studying and waitressing because Joe, her father, hounded/harassed/complained to her about her being in the police academy, wanting to do what Joe does. So instead of taking the courses in the academy and supporting herself, she was working and going to school, probably unnecessarily because Joe doesn't want Iris in anything that smells of dangerous. Like talking to Barry at a crime scene.

*Iris fell into reporting, which isn't awful. I like the idea and hope it gets a good treatment.  I don't need a documentary on reporters, just something that's not insulting to the profession.

*Iris' boyfriend seems nice. Barry and Iris have been friends since before Nora Allen's death. Joe refuses to tell Iris simple truths that would protect her more than his go-to move of constant lies. Joe, her loving father, also has both other men who love Iris lying on the regular to not only protect Iris but the entire Central City  police force. That's some love, yeah.

 

technically Iris is part of Team Flash, a likely honorary member.  Since Barry seeks her out as the Flash to help him with cases, so that has to count for something right.

 

So honorary member is a good thing, right? Because knowing that you're helping keep your city/father/ unshown friends/co-workers/ live-in boyfriend/ best friend  safe doesn't mean you need to know that you are actually trying to save your city/et.al., right?  Because we want to keep her pretty little smile on her face.  Because letting her help more fully would not actually be helpful?

 

Groupthink is never any fun.

Nod. Thats about the right term for it alright.

 

This is the definition of the word groupthink, from Psychologists for Social Responsibility:

 

"Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9).  Groups affected by groupthink ignore alternatives and tend to take irrational actions that dehumanize other groups.  A group is especially vulnerable to groupthink when its members are similar in background, when the group is insulated from outside opinions, and when there are no clear rules for decision making."

 

 Nice generalizing of the boards. Way to group every dissenter into a monolithic hive mind.

[David T. Cole]

Let's keep the thread on the topic of the episode please, this is bringing the conversation way down. Danke.

[millennium]

Holy Hell! This felt like a season finale! 

 

Cisco NOOOOOOOO! His poor little heartbroken face! I don't care if they have to pull the time travel card, bring him back now! 

 

This episode was HARD CORE. 

 

Wow.  This episode beat the tar out of any episode of Arrow that I can think of.  

[CabotCove]

Nice generalizing of the boards. Way to group every dissenter into a monolithic hive mind.

 

 Note: No one said everybody, therefore no generalizations. Thanks for text, that was a good, informative read. And thats the last I will talk of this here, we could always discuss this further in more appropriate subforums or forums. 

 

So honorary member is a good thing, right? Because knowing that you're helping keep your city/father/ unshown friends/co-workers/ live-in boyfriend/ best friend  safe doesn't mean you need to know that you are actually trying to save your city/et.al., right?  Because we want to keep her pretty little smile on her face.  Because letting her help more fully would not actually be helpful?

 

I dont think there is anything wrong with being an honorary member, they are many reasons why someone may not be able to join an official team but can still do good work. Im not a fan of the crew keeping things from Iris at the same time it doesnt take away Iris' contribution in helping the city, I would prefer she knows and I think she would be safer that way. Whether she fully knows all the details or not though, she is doing good and respectable work for her city. 

 

I definately don't want Iris kept in the dark, at the same time Im not going to devalue her for something that is not her own fault, that the fault of the crew (Barry,Joe now Eddie lying to her). And there is more to her life than just knowing some dude's secrets Imo. At least there should be.

[BPOX]

 

I definately don't want Iris kept in the dark, at the same time Im not going to devalue her for something that is not her own fault, that the fault of the crew (Barry,Joe now Eddie lying to her). And there is more to her life than just knowing some dude's secrets Imo. At least there should be.

 

Well, the problem is life and show are not the same. It's a comic book show, so if one isn't involved in fighting or creating crime the show isn't going to spend much time with a character, and so not flesh them out much. I feel like the keeping a key character in the dark usually doesn't work out well for that character, with the notable exception of Captain Awesome on Chuck. Most tend to get sketchy soap opera plots that just tread water. Just to be clear, it's the guys here I devalue, for devaluing Iris. It's the show I'll devalue if this remains some permanent status quo. My sense is though that the writers intend this to be an issue that comes to a head and gets resolved with Iris being more involved. Eddie's complaining was a really positive sign to me.

[Actionmage]

I dont think there is anything wrong with being an honorary member, they are many reasons why someone may not be able to join an official team but can still do good work. Im not a fan of the crew keeping things from Iris at the same time it doesnt take away Iris' contribution in helping the city, I would prefer she knows and I think she would be safer that way. Whether she fully knows all the details or not though, she is doing good and respectable work for her city.

 

My complaint about Iris' supposed honorary membership is: how can you be a member of something you don't know about? 

 

I am not taking anything away from Iris in saying that while she is helping, with variations on how unwittingly, she doesn't know about the Flash Mob. She knows there are science friends of Barry's from STAR Labs. She knows that Barry spends lots of time with his science idol, Harrison Wells.  She is one of Barry's closest friends, yet she has no idea what he does ( currently). She has no idea there is even a Team Flash for her to be an honorary member of. ( sorry, grammarians!)

 

That is why I can't even consider her an honorary member. Obviously, mileage is varying, which is fine.