The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[polyhymnia]

About Davos's reaction, check out this GOT parody cartoon for what his reaction might have been.  At about 1:33...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X30KVdA

I got sucked in and watched all of those.  Too bad he only did through season 4 - quite funny!

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion XI

 

Tyrion tells Shagga that if he dies in a miserable way that he's going to feed his body to the goats. Shagga laughs that Tyrion has no goats so Tyrion replies that he'll find some just for him. He gives instructions to the clansmen to strike at the camps and baggage trains out in the kingswood. As Shagga and the others leave, Tyrion thinks that he's going to feel naked without them. He still has the loyalty of Bronn and various sellswords but knows how fickle sellswords can be. Bronn warns Tyrion that sellswords might kill for a knighthood, but they certainly aren't going to die for one.

 

Tyrion is being escorted through the city and it's clear that he's still unpopular. He tries not to listen to the curses and soon somebody throws a rotten fish at him. A bunch of hungry kids fight over the rotten fish as Tyrion gets onto his horse.

 

Tyrion gives instructions to Bronn to get a hundred men to burn everything from the water's edge to the city wall because he's afraid that Stannis's men will have an easier time scaling the walls if they can just climb onto the roofs of a bunch of shops. Bronn warns Tyrion that the people who own these shops are going to be pretty upset and Tyrion says that this is one more thing the people can blame him for. He says that people can have a reasonable amount of time to remove their property from the buildings and tells Bronn that he doesn't want any more rapes. Bronn replies that he's leading sellswords not septons and makes no promises.

 

News of the fall of Winterfell has reached King's Landing and Tyrion is shocked. He thinks about the castle as he last saw it and thinks that he should be rejoicing that Robb will likely have to turn north to defend his ancestral home.

 

Tyrion had only the vaguest memory of Theon Greyjoy from his time with the Starks. A callow youth, always smiling, skilled with a bow; it was hard to imagine him as Lord of Winterfell. The Lord of Winterfell would always be a Stark.

 

He wonders if the Greyjoys will feel just as out of place in the north as he did. He thinks that the Greyjoys might have the castle but that the godswood will never be theirs not even if fifty years go by.

 

Back at the Red Keep, Joffrey is fastening white cloaks on the two newest members of the Kingsguard. Cersei's choices for the two new knights of the Kingsguard are Ser Balon Swann and Ser Osmund Kettleblack. Tyrion thinks that Swann is a good choice but disapproves of Kettleblack. At the same time, he reasons that Kettleblack won't be any worse than Ser Boros Blount. Blount is currently in a dungeon because he immediately yielded Tommen to Jacelyn Bywater and knights of the Kingsguard are supposed to die in defense of the royal family.

 

Shae has started working for Lollys and Varys tells Tyrion that she's doing well. Shae isn't happy that she isn't allowed to bring her jewelry to her new job but admits that being a lady's maid is better than working in the kitchens.

 

Tyrion talks with the High Septon and tells him that he wants the word spread that Stannis plans on burning the Great Sept of Baelor. He wants it said that any man who tries to give aid to Stannis will be betraying the gods in addition to betraying their rightful king.

 

Balon Greyjoy has sent a letter to King's Landing requesting that an envoy be sent so that they can discuss the border situation of their respective realms in addition to possibly forging some kind of alliance. Tyrion doesn't like the idea of giving away half of the realm to the Greyjoys and considers dumping the matter on Cersei or the small council.

 

Hallyne the Pyromancer tells Tyrion that they discovered a hidden cache and now have nearly thirteen thousand jars of wildfire. Tyrion wants to know how it is that they've managed to create so much of the substance so quickly, and Hallyne admits that certain spells are used are working better now than they used to. He asks Tyrion if there are any dragons around and mentions that an alchemist once told him that their spells stopped working as well the day the last dragon died. Tyrion tells Hallyne that he hasn't seen any dragons. 

 

Lord Bywater talks with Tyrion and reports that Tommen is happy at Rosby. He has a pet fawn and has been writing letters to Myrcella. The last time Tommen had a pet fawn, Joffrey had it skinned to make a jerkin. Bywater mentions that Tommen doesn't miss Joffrey. Tyrion makes sure that arrangements have been made for Tommen should King's Landing fall. Tyrion asks Bywater what the arrangements are and is pleased when Bywater replies that Tyrion commanded him not to tell.

 

Varys visits with Tyrion next and asks him if honor died with their fathers. Tyrion says that his father isn't dead yet and looks at the list of names that Varys has given him. They're mostly rich merchants and traders who think that Stannis is going to win. They call themselves the Antler Men and it seems that they've armed several hundred people to seize the Old Gate so that they'll be able to let Stannis and his men into the city. Tyrion signs the order to have the men arrested.

[Avaleigh]

Every Tyrion chapter shows how valuable Bywater is. Tyrion would really be lost without him. He's just as valuable as Bronn. 

 

I'd forgotten the story of Joffrey having Tommen's fawn killed. I'm glad he's getting this little break away from Joffrey. He asks after Cersei which surprised me too. 

 

I liked Tyrion's reaction to hearing about Winterfell because he feels bad even though he knows he shouldn't. I thought he'd have a passing thought about Bran but I guess that would be too much to expect. 

 

I liked getting more words of wisdom from Tywin too because the line about one man on a wall being more valuable than ten men beneath it reminds me of something that Theon remembers Ned saying. I also liked the comment about a watchman not being a soldier. 

 

I'm pretty sure I remember what happens to the Antler Men. Yikes. 

 

More examples that Tyrion doesn't really care about the small folk. 

 

Interesting that the alchemists are having an easier time creating the wildfire because of Dany's dragons. 

 

Yes, I'm biased, I liked the line where Varys asks if honor died with their fathers and Tyrion's reply. I realize it can easily be interpreted as meaning nothing but if the theory is true then this is another tiny clue. 

 

There's no huge benefit for the Lannisters for teaming up with the Greyjoys since they're already keeping the Starks occupied. Balon doesn't seem like he really thought about that. 

 

Theon's up next. 

[benteen]

Bywater was a great ally to Tyrion...Tyrion didn't find a lot of them.

 

Ah, this was the chapter where Bronn brushes off Tyrion's "no more rapes" comment.  This chapter was definitely an example about how much more darker and amoral Book Bronn is.

 

Balon doesn't seem like he thinks through a lot of things, does he?  He wouldn't have stood a chance against the Lannister in open battle I think.

[Lady S.]

So, after all our talk about the Kingsguard, here we see two of Joffrey's sworn in on Cersei's say-so. I'm further convinced she was the one to blame for Boros Blount having a white cloak in the first place. I also seem to recall one of Stannis's knights in Dance hating the Lannisters because he thought Cersei talked Robert out of naming him to the Kingsguard.

 

I'd forgotten the story of Joffrey having Tommen's fawn killed. I'm glad he's getting this little break away from Joffrey. He asks after Cersei which surprised me too.

I wonder if the fawn was a male deer, that'd be some odd Baratheon symbolism. As for Cersei, I think her abuse of Tommen ramped up after he was king. She was never a good mother, but things were probably a lot different back when she had no reason to focus on Tommen.

Yes, I'm biased, I liked the line where Varys asks if honor died with their fathers and Tyrion's reply. I realize it can easily be interpreted as meaning nothing but if the theory is true then this is another tiny clue.

Honor died with King Aerys?

 

Balon doesn't seem like he thinks through a lot of things, does he?  He wouldn't have stood a chance against the Lannister in open battle I think.

Do any of the Greyjoy guys ever really think things through? Balon is probably the worst, starting doomed rebellions and making bad decisions for his entire family and all his people. If he'd reached out to the Lannisters before attacking the North, Tywin would have probably given him the go-ahead and then he'd still let Roose Bolton throw the ironborn out later.

I liked Tyrion making use of religion here. If Renly was really a great politician, he could have tried to argue the Red God conversion made Stannis unfit to be king instead of saying it was a personality contest and all that mattered was who had the biggest army.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think that Varys would be suggesting that Aerys was honorable if the line was a reference to Aerys. It's the manner of Aerys's death that was dishonorable (in the eyes of some, not me) and I think that's what Varys was referring to. People think it's the biggest breach of honor that a member of the Kingsguard killed the king. 

 

I figured Robert was to blame for Blount but I can see it being Cersei's fault since Robert seemed to listen to her when it came to getting members of her family various positions. ETA: Which still kind of makes it Robert's fault since he was ultimately the one with the power. 

 

I liked Tyrion making use of religion here. If Renly was really a great politician, he could have tried to argue the Red God conversion made Stannis unfit to be king instead of saying it was a personality contest and all that mattered was who had the biggest army.

Excellent point about how Renly should have used religion to his advantage. Regarding Cersei's nonstop idiocy with the High Septon in AFFC, one of the only smart thing she did was let the High Septon know that his Lannister/Tyrell alliance is his only option and that the other guy is all about the Lord of Light even if he doesn't personally believe in it. The High Septon won't have another option to look to until Faegon rolls into town.  

Edited March 17, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I also thought it was interesting that Tyrion brought up burning the godswood of Storm's End, not the Seven statues at Dragonstone. The latter event must not have been known to him, but what's interesting is that the burning of the godswood works just as well to persuade the High Septon, as if the southerners expect the old gods to be respected too. Quite a change from when the Seven first came to Westeros and the Andals were chopping and burning down weirwoods. Those early Sevenites wouldn't have liked Red Rahloo either but I doubt they'd be dismayed by the burning of a godswood, except in a sense that a rival was taking over one of their hobbies.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Theon IV

 

Theon is having a restless night and keeps wondering if he heard something. He tries to tell himself to go back to sleep but feels unsettled by how quiet it is. He wonders why he doesn't hear the howling of the direwolves and asks one of his men to check on them. He feels uneasy at the thought of the direwolves being loose and remembers the day in the woods where Summer and Grey Wind attacked those wildlings. He then asks Wex to check on Bran and Rickon and make sure that they're still in their beds. Theon knows that he doesn't have enough men and worries about what will happen if Asha doesn't come.

 

Wex quickly returns and shakes his head to indicate that Bran and Rickon aren't in their beds, and Urzen soon comes back to tell Theon that the wolves are gone. Theon gives orders for the castle to be roused and thinks to himself that he has to be as cold and deliberate as Ned Stark would be. He's concerned about what Asha will say if she finds out that he's lost the Starks. He curses himself for not posting guards to watch the two boys.

 

Theon feels anger towards the people in the castle and thinks that they're being ungrateful. He thinks about how he had two of his men whipped for raping a girl named Palla and how it was Mikken's own fault that he got himself killed. He also thinks that the people should be thankful that he chose to make Septon Chayle a sacrifice to the Drowned God instead of choosing one of them.

 

Two of Theon's men were killed while guarding the Hunter's Gate including one of the men who raped Palla. It's clear that the direwolves attacked at least one of the men and Theon curses himself for not having the wolves killed on the first day of his take over.

 

Loren wants to go and look for the Stark boys right away but Theon wants to wait until daylight. Theon learns that six people are missing including Hodor, the Reeds, and Osha. Theon thinks to himself that he should never have trusted Osha and thinks that she's a more "unnatural creature" than Asha. He reflects on how even their names sound the same.

 

Theon is relieved to learn that Dancer and the other horses are still in the stables and reasons that they can't be too far. He questions the people in the castle and asks if anyone has any information on the whereabouts of Bran and Rickon. The people all stare at Theon silently and he tells them about how good he's been to them. He says that he could have had the men killed and the women raped but says that he decided to protect them all instead. He realizes that the people all hate him now and Reek tells Theon that he should start flaying the people. He quotes Roose Bolton and says that flayed men have no secrets.

 

The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past, certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. Or so they say, but old ways die hard, as well I know.

 

Theon says that there won't be any flaying in the north as long as he rules Winterfell. He organizes a hunting party and orders Maester Luwin to come along since he doesn't trust the maester to be left behind in his absence. Little Walder Frey volunteers to come along and says that he wants a wolfskin cloak.

 

As the party leaves to go look for Bran and Rickon, Theon thinks about how he once used an arrow to save Bran's life and hopes that he won't need to use another one to take it.

 

The trail leads the party north by northwest into the wolfswood and Theon is concerned that the Starks might accidentally deliver themselves into the hands of Asha. He thinks he'd rather have the boys killed than have that happen.

 

Maester Luwin has never been on a hunt before and comments that it isn't all that different from riding. Theon says that the difference is there's blood at the end of a hunt and Luwin asks Theon if it really has to be that way. He points out that Bran and Rickon are his foster brothers and Theon replies that no Stark apart from Robb was ever brotherly towards him. He admits that Bran and Rickon are more valuable alive than dead and Luwin says that this is true of the Reeds as well. He points out that Howland Reed could make life hell for his uncle down at Moat Cailin but says if the Reeds are held as hostages that this might stay Howland's hand. Theon hasn't considered the value of the Reeds at all apart from looking at Meera and wondering if she was a maiden. He agrees to spare the Reeds if he can.

 

Luwin speaks up for Hodor and asks Theon to spare him as well. Theon says that Hodor will be allowed to live but warns Luwin that if he tries to speak up for Osha that he'll see him killed along with her.

 

Theon reflects on what a shame it is that he can't just marry one of Ned's daughters to seal his hold on Winterfell. He thinks about what a shame it is for him that Sansa is being held in King's Landing.

 

They lose the trail once they get to the stream and are unable to find it again. Little Walder says that they aren't going to find the Starks if the Reeds are with them and says that Crannogmen are sneaky people who know how to fight without being seen. He looks around nervously and says that they could be in the trees listening to everything they say right now. He claims that Crannogmen don't smell like other men and says that could be why their scent hasn't been picked up. Theon is just about to tell Little Walder off when Luwin seems to support some of what the kid is saying.

 

“The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge.”

 

Theon suddenly thinks that the forest seems darker and says the only children he cares about right now are Bran and Rickon. It's getting dark by the time he decides to give in and head back to Winterfell. He feels sick at the thought of what his father and Asha are going to say when they learn what's happened. Reek says if he were in the position of the Stark boys that he would flee to the Umbers. He claims that they might have taken shelter at the old mill on the Acorn Water.

 

Theon is familiar with the old mill and has even had sex with the miller's wife one or two times. Reek says that he has a feeling the boys are there and Theon wonders why they'd be at this particular mill when there are all sorts of other places they might attempt to hide. Reek has Theon reach into a bag he brought so that he can pull out a silver brooch with a wolf's head. Theon seems to understand at once and has most of the party sent back to Winterfell. He says that he knows where Bran and Rickon are hiding.

 

Maester Luwin reminds Theon that he promised to be merciful and Theon replies that mercy was for this morning before they made him angry.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

So Theon compares himself to Ned again on the morning before he murders a former lover with both her children. He (rightly, imo) doesn't think he owes much gratitude to the Starks for treating him decently, but expects the Winterfell folk to be grateful that not all of them suffered the fates of Palla, Mikken, and Chayle. It's fascinating just how much his PoV is divorced from our Earth logic.

 

Little Walder takes another step on his depraved path to being Ramsay's squire, Theon saying there would be no flaying in the North so long as he ruled Winterfell is some ironic foreshadowing, and the possibility of Howland Reed making life hell for the Moat Cailin occupiers is another bit of foundation laid for Theon's Dance chapters.

 

I was amused by Theon thinking of the similarity between Asha and Osha's names, for obvious reasons. Of course the idea of marrying Sansa to strengthen his claim to Winterfell had less amusing show connotations. I wonder if Theon was delusional enough to think he could seduce Sansa.

Do we think Luwin was just trying to freak Theon out by telling him about the crannogmen and the children of the forest? Some part of him may want to believe in Jojen's craziness now.

[Avaleigh]

So Theon compares himself to Ned again on the morning before he murders a former lover with both her children. He (rightly, imo) doesn't think he owes much gratitude to the Starks for treating him decently, but expects the Winterfell folk to be grateful that not all of them suffered the fates of Palla, Mikken, and Chayle. It's fascinating just how much his PoV is divorced from our Earth logic.

 

Little Walder takes another step on his depraved path to being Ramsay's squire, Theon saying there would be no flaying in the North so long as he ruled Winterfell is some ironic foreshadowing, and the possibility of Howland Reed making life hell for the Moat Cailin occupiers is another bit of foundation laid for Theon's Dance chapters.

 

I was amused by Theon thinking of the similarity between Asha and Osha's names, for obvious reasons. Of course the idea of marrying Sansa to strengthen his claim to Winterfell had less amusing show connotations. I wonder if Theon was delusional enough to think he could seduce Sansa.

Do we think Luwin was just trying to freak Theon out by telling him about the crannogmen and the children of the forest? Some part of him may want to believe in Jojen's craziness now.

Theon thinks about Ned a lot. He really was a father figure to him whether he likes it or wants to admit it or not. When he thinks of how he's supposed to be it's Ned's example that he thinks about, not Balon's. He doesn't act like a son of Ned's of course but he does think about Ned's words of wisdom or sees how Ned's demeanor was effective.

 

It was also struck by what a thrill it was for Theon to have sex in Ned's bed. He's almost like a rebellious teenager who is playing house while his parents are away.  

 

Little Walder is such a little prejudiced asswipe. I still don't know what to make of Big Walder in comparison as far as whether he's better or worse. He might just be the sneakiest Frey of all. 

 

I too like Theon musing about how both of these woman have been a tremendous pain in his ass. What he hates is that they both remind him of his own shortcomings. It's like he thinks they're "unnatural" because they're smarter than he is or something. Like it isn't the natural order of things for a woman to be smarter. That's how he comes across to me. 

 

Ugh, Theon is the worst when he has thoughts like how it would be better for Bran and Rickon to die than for Asha to laugh at him. He's a selfish prick and the only reason I feel sorry for him is because of the stuff with Ramsay. If I thought that a quick death was at the end of his occupation of Winterfell then I'd have next to no sympathy for him because he just shows how clueless, unapologetic, and irredeemable he is with pretty much every breath and every thought he takes. 

 

Theon probably is delusional enough to think that he could seduce Sansa but I don't he'd have tried if she'd been there. He just would have made it happen and wouldn't have cared how she felt one way or the other. It does make me wonder what would have happened if Sansa and Arya had been present for Theon's takeover. 

 

I'm curious too as to what Luwin's thoughts are about Jojen's dreams. 

[Lady S.]

It was also struck by what a thrill it was for Theon to have sex in Ned's bed. He's almost like a rebellious teenager who is playing house while his parents are away.

Yeah, "there was a certain undeniable spice to fucking a common tavern wench in Lord Eddard Stark’s own bed". Theon is such a ridiculous manchild. Like in Theon II when he has the emo thought about his black clothes matching his mood or something.

[benteen]

Only Theon can conquer a place and still be surprised that the people there are "ungrateful" about it.  Jackass.  I give him a point for at least having the two men who raped Palla be whipped bloody but he continues making it sounds like they should be grateful to him.

 

Luwin at least knows how to handle things well during this half-assed occupation. 

[Avaleigh]

I liked Luwin's sarcasm when he said that hunting doesn't seem to be all that different than riding. 

 

If Theon can't even go to sleep without worrying if he's going to have his throat cut, why the hell is he still there? He's just so dumb. He cares enough to have some of his guys go to the village to bring Kyra to him but he can't keep Bran and Rickon in the same room together so that they can be guarded by one of his men? He's making it clear that he's too stupid to live. 

 

When I think of Theon right now, I think of some Joe Pesci character snarking 'This guy could fuck up a cup of coffee.'

[benteen]

I liked Luwin's sarcasm when he said that hunting doesn't seem to be all that different than riding. 

 

If Theon can't even go to sleep without worrying if he's going to have his throat cut, why the hell is he still there? He's just so dumb. He cares enough to have some of his guys go to the village to bring Kyra to him but he can't keep Bran and Rickon in the same room together so that they can be guarded by one of his men? He's making it clear that he's too stupid to live. 

 

When I think of Theon right now, I think of some Joe Pesci character snarking 'This guy could fuck up a cup of coffee.'

 

Heheh.  That's a GREAT line.

 

Theon is getting off sexually on being the Prince of Winterfell.  Being so giddy about having sex in Ned Stark's bed is proof enough of that.  It's overriding absolutely all common sense because holding Winterfell with little more than a skeleton crew is insane.

[Lady S.]

Only Theon can conquer a place and still be surprised that the people there are "ungrateful" about it.

I bet that if he had forcibly married and raped Sansa, he would have been shocked and offended afterwards if she wasn't a perfectly loving wife.

Seriously, the Greyjoys guys do not think anything through. In that sense, at least, Theon is very much his father's son.

[Avaleigh]

Luwin saying that Ned did what he could to make Theon a more gentle person but that it was too little and too late was an interesting line to me because it made me think of Luwin doing what he can to make the two Walders better people and the efforts ultimately being futile.

 

It also made me wonder if Theon came to Winterfell acting like an obnoxious little ass the way that the Freys are. Luwin saying that Theon came to them basically already hardened at the age of ten makes me think that he acted less like the scared little boy than I initially imagined. I'm not downplaying the fear and sorrow that he must have felt over his terrible situation. I just think that his outward attitude was probably pretty obnoxious and callous and not unlike the two Walders. There's a reason why Bran and the others didn't warm to Theon IMO. At the same time saint Robb saw something in him that was worthwhile so I guess he couldn't have been all bad. 

 

I bet that if he had forcibly married and raped Sansa, he would have been shocked and offended afterwards if she wasn't a perfectly loving wife.

 

I'm positive that he would have treated her terribly. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

Still catching up here.  Ripping down old old old wallpaper and trying to come up with an organization of book shelves that makes some sort of sense is seriously cutting into my reading time.  I've got absolutely nothing for Dany's chapter.  I pretty much have to take the prophecy and vision stuff at face value because some of it I can apply to things we know and some I can't and it doesn't really interest me enough to puzzle over it much.  I realize that puts me at a disadvantage in a series like this but I'm okay with it because I mostly read for characters and what happens to them.  Anyway ...

 

Tyrion's chapter once again reminds just how very much it has to suck to be anything less than a highborn or someone of importance in the court under Lannister rule.  We get more hungry kids fighting over rotten fish as Tyrion steps over it without comment.  We get Tyrion ordering the destruction of people's homes and property outside the city wall with little more than a shrug and "eh, they already hate me."  Of course there's a good military reasoning for it, but Tyrion's not the least bit concerned here about where any of these people are going to go or what happens to them now that he's had their livelihoods burned beyond reminding Bronn not to unnecessarily kill or rape anyone if they can help it.  He makes jokes instead of giving any actual thought as to why the wealthier and likely more influential Antler Men would be siding against them.

 

Nice mention of stumbling upon yet another forgotten wildfire stash in the Dragonpit.  Kings Landing is reading more and more like the world's biggest bonfire waiting to happen.  I did like Tyrion complaining that it would have been helpful if the long dead Rossart had bothered to tell anyone where it all is since we'll eventually learn that Jaime killed him before he could, had he been so inclined.  It again makes me wonder if Tyrion and Jaime or really any of the Lannisters have never talked about anything that happened pre or post sack of the city because Tyrion never seems to know anything more about any of it beyond what could be considered common knowledge or what would be found in books.

 

Tyrion's reaction to Theon taking Winterfell is interesting.  It really is a foreign place to everyone but the Northerners.

Edited March 19, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[nodorothyparker]

I do love following Bran's chapter where a lot of the castle inhabitants seemed shocked just shocked that Theon turned out to not be one of them with Theon basically doing the same thing and acting completely surprised that he can't call on the old familiarity from when he lived there.  He's genuinely offended that they're not grateful for what he's done.  One of the very few lucid or sensible thoughts he manages here is thinking that Balon doesn't think beyond conquest and that conquering something is not at all the same as holding it.  If the chapter didn't end with the murders of a couple of innocent children, it would read mostly like a "can you even believe this shit" comedy of errors.  Theon just can't do anything right.

 

Under peaceful circumstances, a Theon-Sansa match might not have been terrible.  Theon probably still would have been something of an idiot and an ass but her chances of ending up with a husband like that under their marriage system probably would have been 50-50 anyway.  A match between two great houses seems to generally be considered a very desirable thing, and she was after all betrothed to Joffrey.

Edited March 19, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

Luwin saying that Ned did what he could to make Theon a more gentle person but that it was too little and too late was an interesting line to me because it made me think of Luwin doing what he can to make the two Walders better people and the efforts ultimately being futile.

 

It also made me wonder if Theon came to Winterfell acting like an obnoxious little ass the way that the Freys are. Luwin saying that Theon came to them basically already hardened at the age of ten makes me think that he acted less like the scared little boy than I initially imagined. I'm not downplaying the fear and sorrow that he must have felt over his terrible situation. I just think that his outward attitude was probably pretty obnoxious and callous and not unlike the two Walders. There's a reason why Bran and the others didn't warm to Theon IMO. At the same time saint Robb saw something in him that was worthwhile so I guess he couldn't have been all bad. 

 

Luwin's not exactly an impartial observer, especially on a day when he had no reason at all to be sensitive about Theon's circumstances. His explanation doesn't even acknowledge that Ned was captor as well as role model to Theon, probably because he was talking to Ned's child. I tend to think Ned's influence was more too little than too late, though it probably would have helped if Theon hadn't spent nine formative years surrounded (mostly) by awful people.

 

Asha remembers Theon as a shy, scared kid before Balon's first rebellion (which makes me think he was always Balon's unfavorite child), and she told him that she liked him better when he was nine. Her saying that and acting like she was disappointed at how he turned out make me think he wasn't just some bad seed who was always a lost cause, and seems to point to him actually being less of an obnoxious shit as a little kid.

 

Do you really think Theon being ironborn wasn't a reason people didn't warm to him? The fact that Theon's status could change at any point if his father misbehaved and that Ned at least kept up a bluff about the possibility of Theon's hypothetical death was another reason not to warm up to him too much. From what we've seen, the Walders were never beaten at Winterfell, just as none of the Starklings, including Jon Snow, have memories of corporal punishment, but Theon does. That's why I don't think he was really treated quite as well as any regular fosterling would have been. I also doubt that the Walders ever looked up to Luwin the way Theon looked up to Ned. If his preferred father-figure had thought of him more like a son, I'm sure Theon would grown up to be a different and better person, but that could never be the nature of their relationship because of the real reason Theon was his ward.

[nodorothyparker]

Theon was only a much younger third son before Balon's ill-fated rebellion.  Even with the Ironborn choosing a ruler through kingsmoot instead of the usual method of straight primogeniture, I have no trouble thinking Balon probably had far less interest in him and thus paid him far less attention than two grown sons of fighting age.  So with the end of the rebellion, Theon very likely went from being the least favorite child to a 9-year-old living with strangers who no matter how courteous they may have been were still his captors who would have been called upon to to put him to death if his father misbehaved again.  The Freys were traditional wards in every sense and could expect to be treated as such.  Theon was not.

 

Something that occurs to me every time it's mentioned how none of the Stark kids save Robb was ever truly friendly toward him is the ages of the kids involved.  Robb and Jon would have been the only two kids even old enough to be any kind of peers with him in the beginning and Jon already had his own issues being publicly branded a bastard and the target of Catelyn's continuing ire.  Sansa and Arya would have been toddlers and Bran and Rickon wouldn't have even born yet.  So the protocol for how this particular ward/hostage was to be treated likely would have been set by the time any of them would have even been aware of it.

[Avaleigh]

Jon VI

 

As Jon travels with Qhorin and the other men, they noticed that there are watchers in the Skirling Pass. Ebben thinks that Mance would skin those watchers alive if he knew they were using fire, and Qhorin comments that fire can mean both life and death in these mountains. Qhorin hasn't allowed the men to use fire since they've entered the mountains so all the food they've been eating has been cold and hard. The men sleep together huddled under cloaks and furs and this reminds Jon of the nights at Winterfell when he would share a bed with his brothers.

 

Stonesnake mentions that the watching wildlings will have a horn and Qhorin says that they'll have to make sure they don't blow it. Qhorin decides that two men should be sent up to make the climb to silence the men. Stonesnake is the best climber of the group, so he volunteers along with Jon. Qhorin says that Ghost will have to remains with them because his white fur will make him too visible. Jon allows Ghost to nuzzle him and tells the wolf that he'll come back for him.

 

The climb is treacherous but Jon doesn't feel sorry that he volunteered to go. He's struck by the wondrous beauty of their surroundings and seems to like the idea of pouncing on the enemy.

 

Two hours into the journey the wind is so fierce that Jon prays he isn't blown off the side of the mountain. He eventually gets to the point where he thinks that it's smarter not to look down. As Jon continues to make the climb he's reminded of Bran and wishes that he had a tenth of Bran's courage.

 

Once Jon and Stonesnake find the wildlings, they realize that there are three of them rather than two. Stonesnake kills one man, Jon kills the second man and when he goes to kill the third man he realizes that it's a woman. Stonesnake urges Jon to kill the wildling woman but Jon hesitates and thinks that there's something about the woman that reminds him of Arya even though they look nothing alike.

 

The woman agrees to yield and Jon tells her that she's their captive. Stonesnake says that Qhorin didn't say anything about them taking captives and Jon argues that Qhorin didn't say that they couldn't take any either. Stonesnake points out that the woman is a spearwife and says that she'll kill Jon if she's given even half a chance. Jon replies that he isn't going to give the woman that chance.

 

The wildling captive is named Ygritte and she advises Jon and Stonesnake to burn the men they've just killed. Jon thinks about the wight attack at Castle Black and tells Stonesnake that maybe they ought to do as Ygritte suggests. Stonesnake strips both bodies instead and then throws them over the side of the mountain where they eventually become food for shadowcats.

 

Stonesnake asks Ygritte what waits beyond the pass and she tells him that there are thousands of free folk. Jon asks if the free folk mean to march on the Wall and asks Ygritte if she knows anything about Benjen. Ygritte ignores Jon's questions and she starts asking him about his mother after she learns that he's a bastard of Winterfell. Ygritte asks Jon if his mother ever sang him the song about the winter rose. Jon tells her that he's never heard of the song and never knew his mother.

 

Ygritte starts tell Jon about the writer of the song, Bael the Bard, and says that Bael was the King-beyond-the-Wall many years ago. Ygritte says that Bael was a great raider and the Stark who was in Winterfell at the time grew frustrated that he was unable to catch Bael and execute him. When Bael hears that Stark is going around calling him a craven, he decides that he's going to teach the man a lesson. He climbs over the Wall, heads down the kingsroad, and shows up at Winterfell disguised as a singer from Skagos. Bael's songs are well received and Lord Stark tells him that he may name his own reward. Bael asks Stark for the prettiest flower in Winterfell and Stark arranges for Bael to be given some winter roses from inside of the glass gardens. The next day Bael is gone and so is Stark's daughter. Stark's daughter returns with a baby boy about a year later and it turns out that she and Bael were in the crypts of Winterfell the entire time. According to Ygritte, this baby boy went on to become the next Lord of Winterfell, so she claims that she and Jon both share Bael's blood.

 

Jon doesn't believe there's any truth to the tale. Ygritte says it's a good song even if it didn't happen. She says the song sometimes has a darker ending where Bael is killed by his Stark son.

 

"...the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael’s head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.”

 

Qhorin and the others arrive at dawn and Jon soon finds himself explaining Ygritte's presence. He says that Ygritte yielded herself to him, so Qhorin asks her what would happen to him if he were to yield himself up to the free folk. Ygritte admits that it would earn him a slower death than normal.

 

The other men all seem to agree that Ygritte's presence is dangerous for them and all it would take is a shout from her to put all of their lives at risk. Jon repeats that Ygritte yielded herself to him, so Qhorin says that Jon can be the one to get rid of her.

 

Qhorin thinks it'll be easier for Jon to go through with killing Ygritte if they aren't all standing around to watch, so they go off and leave Jon alone with his captive. Ygritte doesn't try to run and correctly guesses that Jon has never killed a woman before. She tells Jon that he doesn't have to kill her and says that they could run off together and that Mance would allow him to join him. Jon tells her that he's a crow just like the men he's with so Ygritte asks him if he'll at least burn her body. Jon says that she won't be burned because the smoke might be seen.

 

Jon takes out Longclaw and asks Ygritte if she's afraid. She says that she felt afraid last night but feels better now that the sun's up. She moves her hair away from her neck and tells Jon that she'll come back and haunt him if he doesn't do a clean job of it.

 

He raised Longclaw over his head, both hands tight around the grip. One cut, with all my weight behind it. He could give her a quick clean death, at least. He was his father’s son. Wasn’t he? Wasn’t he?

 

Ygritte tells Jon to get on with it and tells him that she won't be able to stay brave forever. When he continues to hesitate, Ygritte turns around to look at him and he lowers his sword. He tells her to go. Ygrite stares at Jon and he tells her to leave before he changes his mind.

[Avaleigh]

I'm going to start keeping track of how many women in this story throw themselves off of towers in despair. 

 

I do enjoy the Bael story though, not just for the stuff with Mance that comes later but because it made me wonder which parts of the story were true. That Bolton tidbit sounds plausible and I wondered if there was some dispute over Bael's son's claim to Winterfell assuming that part of the story is true. 

 

It's interesting that Ygritte reminds Jon of Arya when their descriptions couldn't be more different and they aren't even close in age. 

 

One thing that made me laugh was Ygritte and Jon introducing themselves and Ygritte telling Jon right away that he has an 'evil' name. 

 

I wonder if Ned would have spared Ygritte? I feel like the chapter was telling me that Rhaegar would have spared her. 

 

I wonder what Qhorin was thinking when he made that call to leave Jon alone with her? Was that his way of giving Jon a break so that he could have the chance to let her go? I can see him sending the others away but it seems to me that if he really wanted Ygritte dead that he would have stayed to make sure this rookie teenager doesn't have an attack of conscience.  

[glowbug]

I think Ygritte reminding Jon of Arya, given that he and Ygritte eventually have a romantic relationship, is a call back to the original outline where Jon and Arya were in love with each other. We have no way of knowing if GRRM is still planning on going there (I really hope not, and it doesn't seem plausible without a five year time jump) but that was his original intent. Jon questioning why he can't kill Ygritte when he knows it's what Ned would do is GRRM being heavy handed in his hints that Jon is not Ned's son. It's so obvious to me that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son that I have a hard time understanding why anyone would seriously question it. 

 

P.S. Avaleigh, I think you were the one in the Climbing the Spitball Wall thread that suggested a rewatch of the show leading up to season six and was wondering if that was still the plan, and how the timing is supposed to work out (a season per week, episode per night, etc.). Someone else pointed out that we're supposed to start this week, which is why I'm asking. 

[Avaleigh]

Glowbug, I think maybe it was the poster Andeleisha who suggested a rewatch of the show. I'm interested in attempting it. I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with everyone, depends on the pacing, but I'm going to watch the pilot today. 

 

ETA: 

 

I think Jon/Arya has to be out at this point. 

 

Agreed that it's obvious that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. I'm not sure why there's so much denial from certain parts of the fandom.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Avaleigh

[glowbug]

Glowbug, I think maybe it was the poster Andeleisha who suggested a rewatch of the show. I'm interested in attempting it. I don't know if I'll be able to keep up with everyone, depends on the pacing, but I'm going to watch the pilot today. 

 

ETA: 

 

I think Jon/Arya has to be out at this point. 

 

Agreed that it's obvious that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. I'm not sure why there's so much denial from certain parts of the fandom.

 

I guess I got confused by the A names. Sorry about that. :)

 

I hope you're right about Jon/Arya. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by glowbug

[Lady S.]

I think Ygritte reminding Jon of Arya, given that he and Ygritte eventually have a romantic relationship, is a call back to the original outline where Jon and Arya were in love with each other. We have no way of knowing if GRRM is still planning on going there (I really hope not, and it doesn't seem plausible without a five year time jump) but that was his original intent.

I think any Jon/Arya romance was dropped years before the 5-year-time-jump was, the rest of this book is a lot different from the original outline, definitely no Tyrion/Arya hints, yet Jon keeps comparing Ygritte to Arya in Storm. I think this is more about establishing that Jon has a definite type, as the other women he flirts with after Ygritte, Val and Alys, are somewhat Arya-like in personality. Or maybe GRRM's just using this with all those Arya/Lyanna comparisons to say Jon has Freudian issues without even knowing who his mother was.

 

I wonder if Ned would have spared Ygritte? I feel like the chapter was telling me that Rhaegar would have spared her.

Idk about Ned but this is something Robb and Jon have in common. It's fitting that Jon wondered how Robb felt before his first battle but his and Robb's initiations into killing had more in common than Jon could ever know. Robb's first real fight wasn't on a battlefield, it was the skirmish with the wildlings in the wolfswood. And afterwards he spared Osha's life, partly because he was reluctant to kill a woman. (I say partly because Jon had better reasons for his choice here than he did on the show and Robb sparing Osha definitely proved to be the right choice.)

Ygritte saying Snow was an evil name has always seemed like an odd line from someone born and raised in a frozen wasteland. Yeah, even they don't enjoy snow but still, it should be a problem they're used to, not something evil. It's not like his name is Jon Blizzard, Jon Frostbite, or Jon WhiteWalkerColdFront.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Lady S.

[glowbug]

I think any Jon/Arya romance was dropped years before the 5-year-time-jump was, the rest of this book is a lot different from the original outline, definitely no Tyrion/Arya hints, yet Jon keeps comparing Ygritte to Arya in Storm. I think this is more about establishing that Jon has a definite type, as the other women he flirts with after Ygritte, Val and Alys, are somewhat Arya-like in personality. Or maybe GRRM's just using this with all those Arya/Lyanna comparisons to say Jon has Freudian issues without even knowing who his mother was.

This is what I meant when I said it was a reference to Jon/Arya from the original outline. Jon has a certain type and his type are women that share traits with Arya. I don't think GRRM is going to go there with the two of them and I really hope not but you never know. Certainly he's not going with Tyrion/Arya.

[Lady S.]

I wonder when Jon had to huddle with his brothers to sleep back at Winterfell. Plural brothers, as in more than Robb. Winterfell was a warm place inside, they all had their own bedrooms, and the last winter was before Bran was born. Was this another math/timeline issue of GRRM's? Or did it get that cold sleeping in Winterfell in the spring and summer years? The weather must have been pretty cold for the warm springs and hearthfires not to be enough to keep people warm at night. 

 

I liked Jon's repeating Tyrion's joke about his mother to Ygritte.

 

This Bael the Bard story is why I think the kinslaying taboo can't be taken seriously. The gods hate killers of close relatives even when they don't even have a clue about their blood ties? That's unfair greek tragedy bullshit, you old gods. There's some definite social benefit in trying to stigmatize patricide, fratricide, etc. in a society relying on primogeniture, but it doesn't help to not have exceptions. Like Roose saying he could do nothing about Ramsay murdering Domeric because killing Ramsay would also be kinslaying. (Of course, it's Roose so who knows how much he really cared about justice for Domeric). And if poor unnamed Lord Stark was a kinslayer for taking down Bael then I don't see Stannis wouldn't have been if he had the chance to execute Renly for treason, which is why I don't get the argument that Stannis would have executed Renly but he wouldn't intentionally do it Mel's way because Stannis wouldn't choose kinslaying. Really doesn't seem like legality has much to do with determining kinslaying. Or else the wildlings believe in a crazier version of kinslaying. (Whatever they believe, they must be wrong about kinslaying entirely if quadruple-kinslayer Bloodraven basically became one of the gods.)

Edited March 22, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

The interesting thing about kinslaying is that it seems to be the one thing that keeps Tywin and Roose worst instincts in line.  I never thought of Tywin as a religious man but this seems to be a line he doesn't want to cross though of course he had no problem with sending Tyrion out in the field with the Hill Tribes.  Maybe he considered that a loop hole.

 

Interesting point about whether or not Roose actually loved Domeric.  Roose seems to describe him very well but he also describes a son who seems like he was a caring, learned and sane individual.  Nothing at all like his father.  Roose must have looked at him like he was some kind of oddball.

[Lady S.]

The interesting thing about kinslaying is that it seems to be the one thing that keeps Tywin and Roose worst instincts in line.  I never thought of Tywin as a religious man but this seems to be a line he doesn't want to cross though of course he had no problem with sending Tyrion out in the field with the Hill Tribes.  Maybe he considered that a loop hole.

As tv Cersei said in Blackwater, "He believes in them [the gods], he just doesn't like them very much." I imagine the loophole for the Battle of the Green Fork was the chance that Tyrion would survive, which Tywin was fine with. Putting Tyrion in the van showed Tywin didn't have much concern for his life, but it wasn't really a sound murder plot, and I doubt Tywin thought it was. Even though Tyrion was a dwarf who'd never been in combat before, the only way to ensure his death would be to give instructions to that effect.

[John Potts]

I always saw it as a Xanatos Gambit by Tywin, really: Tyrion fights and/or leads the van well, the Lannisters win the battle, it goes badly then Tyrion dies, so he'd be OK with it either way (of course, given it was a feint anyway, the Lannisters were always likely to win). I don't think Tywin actively planned for Tyrion to die, just set it up so it was a probable outcome.

[Lady S.]

Oh yeah, it was a win-win outcome for Tywin.

 

I think Roose is doing something similar with Ramsay, treating him as a disposable asset. He wrote that weird letter about Ramsay's alleged death, trying to distance himself from his son and have plausible deniability about whatever he did. If Ramsay had died he'd be rid of a psychotic kinslayer and free to make new heirs with Walda, but he couldn't have really wanted Ramsay's death that much because he was fine with still relying on Ramsay later. It doesn't seem like either Ramsay's alleged death or his surprise survival were really problems for Roose.

[Avaleigh]

Sansa IV

 

Sansa is talking with Dontos in the godswood and he's telling her that he hears a lot more as a fool than he ever did as a knight. Dontos tells her how Stannis is trying to smoke Tyrion's clansmen out of the woods. He also mentions that he thinks Moon Boy is on Varys's payroll.

 

Sansa sees that Dontos is drunk again but tells herself that he's all she has. She asks him if it's true that Stannis had the godswood at Storm's End burned and Dontos confirms that Stannis did it at the urging of his red priestess. Dontos says that Stannis is going to burn the Great Sept of Baelor if he takes the city, and Sansa says she's fine with that happening since her father was executed on its steps.

 

Sansa asks Dontos what good he's done her since he promised to take her away. Dontos says that he's spoken to a man who is hiring a ship for them and says they'll leave when the time is right. Sansa tells him that the time to leave is now before the fighting starts. Dontos tells Sansa to be patient and have faith in him.

 

Stannis is still on the march but his vanguard has already arrived, and Sansa tells Dontos that everyone is saying Stannis has ten times as many men as Joffrey.

 

Dontos says that he ought to thank Joffrey for making him a fool since he would have had to armor up and man the walls with the others. Sansa tells Dontos that Joffrey would only make him a knight again if he did that. Dontos laughs and tells Sansa how clever she is. She says that Joffrey and his mother think she's stupid and Dontos replies that it's probably safer for her that way.

 

Dontos tries to give Sansa a sloppy kiss before she leaves but she manages to dodge it, and gives him a quick kiss on the cheek instead. She forces herself not to cry and tells herself that she's been crying too much lately.

 

She wants to put off having to go inside of her room and decides to go up to the roof. The Hound suddenly appears and keeps her from falling. Sansa tells him that he startled her and the Hound corrects her and says what she really means is that he scares her. She looks away from him and he calls her out on how she doesn't like looking at his face. He points out that she was happy enough to see him on the day of the riot.

 

She made herself look at that face now, really look. It was only courteous, and a lady must never forget her courtesies. The scars are not the worst part, nor even the way his mouth twitches. It’s his eyes. She had never seen eyes so full of anger. “I... I should have come to you after,” she said haltingly. “To thank you, for... for saving me... you were so brave.”

 

The Hound says that a dog doesn't exactly need courage to scare away rats. Sansa asks him if it gives him joy to scare people, and he replies that it gives him joy to kill people. He tells her that she can wrinkle her face all she likes but he knows her father has killed men. Sansa replies that her father was only doing his duty and didn't enjoy killing. The Hound says that her father lied if he told her that he didn't enjoy it and says that killing is the sweetest thing there is. He also tells her that knights are meant for killing.

 

The Hound killed his first man at the age of twelve and says that he's lost count of how many he's killed since. Sansa asks the Hound if he fears that he'll go to hell for all of the evil acts that he's committed but he only laughs at her. He says that there aren't any true knights in the world just as there aren't any gods. He says that the strong rule the world and that she should never believe otherwise. Sansa backs away from him and tells him that he's awful. The Hound says that he's only being honest and insists it's the world itself that's awful.

 

Sansa flees the scene and thinks about how afraid she is of the Hound. At the same time she can't help but wish that Dontos were more like him. She tells herself that there are gods and true knights and that all of the stories can't be lies.

 

Sansa has a nightmare about the riot and wakes up to find out that she's had her first flowering. She freaks out how much blood there is and worries about the servants seeing the evidence. She worries about how she'll be forced to marry Joffrey and makes a desperate attempt to burn the evidence, but her maid soon walks in on her.

 

Sansa is brought to see Cersei in her solar and Cersei asks her what she hoped to accomplish by setting a fire in her room. Sansa says that she was frightened by the blood and Cersei tells Sansa that she's only had her first flowering. Sansa explains that she somehow expected the experience to be less messy and more magical.

 

Cersei laughs at this and tells Sansa to wait for the day she has a child. She says that a woman's life is ninety percent mess and ten percent magical. She talks about how difficult Joffrey's birth was and mentions that Robert wasn't with her during the labor. She tells Sansa that she may never grow to love Joffrey but she will love the children that he gives her. Sansa claims that she loves Joffrey with all of her heart. Cersei sighs and tells Sansa she'll need to learn some new lies.

 

Cersei talks about how Joffrey would cry as a baby whenever Robert would pick him up. She says that Robert's baseborn children would always gurgle and smile at him and points out that Robert always wanted smiles and cheers. She says Robert wanted very much to be loved and mentions that her brother Tyrion is afflicted with the same disease. She asks Sansa if she wants to be loved, and Sansa replies that everyone wants to be loved.

 

“I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

 

[Lady S.]

Sansa IV

Sansa asks the Hound if he fears that he'll go to hell for all of the evil acts that he's committed but he only laughs at her. He says that there aren't any true knights in the world just as there aren't any gods. 

This part is strikingly similar to part of her mother's upcoming exchange with Jaime. The Hound going on to say that those too weak to defend themselves should just get out of the way and die rings a tad false when he just saved Sansa's life and has defended her verbally before. I think this dog is more bark than bite when he acts this way.

[DigitalCount]

Can I just say that Cersei is utterly horrible to Sansa in every version of this story? She is the worst. "Hope you liked your first period, because it's all downhill from here!" Just, go trip down some stairs

or get strangled

already. There is no possible benefit to emotionally torturing a poor, scared, disenfranchised girl, and I don't believe for a second that Cersei was trying some tough-love nonsense. She has taken literally everything from Sansa at this point--her family, her freedom, her good name, even her spirit animal--and now she just wants to pick at the scabs. I will enjoy this woman's downfall in whatever form it takes. 

Times like these, I really hope Sansa is the YMBQ, even if she won't deliver the final squeeze.

[Avaleigh]

I'm convinced that Sansa is the YMBQ and scenes like this are one of the reasons why. 

 

Cersei is being her usual bitchy self but she did get some good lines. Mainly the love being a poison line but I also liked her observation about Robert so desperately wanting to be loved. I'd add that Robert enjoyed being loved and cheered for and that it was never enough for him. He could always use with some extra adoration and seemed to want it in the way that he wanted food and women. Another reason that he and Cersei were utterly unsuited is that they both seem like they would prefer to have partners who basically worship them. 

 

Thinking about Robert wanting to be loved makes me realize that this is something that he and his brothers very much have in common. Robert and Renly both wanted to be loved and liked the idea of being adored. Stannis acts in a way that suggests he doesn't care but spends a substantial amount of time seeming incredibly bitter over not being liked/loved and not having friends in the way that either of his brothers did. 

 

Lol that all of Robert's illegitimate children instinctively take to him even though he typically treats their mothers like shit. 

 

I wish the Hound would give Sansa a break when he goes out of his way to terrify her. He has to shit on her memories of her father by saying that Ned was a liar who likes killing? 

 

As far as all of the claims that Sansa isn't smart, I typically defend her and don't know what people want from a character so young. Trying to burn everything though...I don't know how to describe that as being anything other than extremely foolish. Fire's are kind of a big deal and her foolishness might have killed somebody, likely one of the downtrodden servants. I know that wasn't her intention and that she was basically hysterically frightened, but lighting a match obviously wasn't a great move. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Avaleigh

[vibeology]

I'm very forgiving of the fire. Sansa is terrified because she knows her moon's blood means marriage to Joffrey. She knows she can't trust anyone and that she has to get rid of the evidence because any servant who walks through the door will report her to Cersei. She doesn't have many resources available to her in the room itself. Its not like she could wash her sheets and clothing herself. She has to destroy the proof so I can't say I blame her for trying fire. I'd imagine this is where sheltered Sansa comes into play; even in Winterfell there are servants who take care of the fire and Sansa doesn't strike my as the type of kid who'd poke in the ashes. She probably didn't understand how badly things could get. She's frantic and I don't get the sense from her chapter she thinks this will work, but she tries because the alternative is far worse. I honestly think the image of her trying to burn it down is one of strength. She's trying to save herself, even if she doesn't really stand a chance.

 

And, I'll overshare here to say that when I got my first period, I tried to hide it from my very nice and loving mother for a day before I was in over my head and needed help. The whole felt so embarrassing to pre-teen me and I wasn't at risk of being married off to an abusive murderer, so I think her reaction is more than understandable

[Avaleigh]

I sympathize with her definitely and I agree with you that she didn't realize how bad or out of control it could get. It's sad that she's completely alone at such a time and she didn't exactly get lessons at school from Smokey the Bear. ;p 

 

I agree too that at least she's trying to do something to fight and that this shows a kind of strength. 

[benteen]

This chapter reminded me that Dontos is yet another guy who acts creepy towards Sansa.  She seems to be a magnet for it.

[DigitalCount]

This chapter reminded me that Dontos is yet another guy who acts creepy towards Sansa. She seems to be a magnet for it.

I agree, and at the same time... is she really a magnet for it, or is this just the clear outcome for young girls in this society without the protection of a father? If men don't respect the personhood of a fatherless girl, even a noble one, then there's little stopping them from feeling they can take advantage of her, especially when it's not just her sexuality they value.

[Lady S.]

Excuse me for getting hung up on plural brothers again, but it was weird to me that Sansa didn't just call for Robb's help in her dream. Was that some crazy dream logic at work thinking a cripple and/or a 4yo could save her? (They possibly could, as wargs, but Sansa has no way of knowing that, in dreams or awake.) Sure, Ryam Redwyne and Aemon the Dragonknight weren't great bets either, but she called their names only at the end, because they were known as great knights. Is it possible she meant Robb and Jon here?

Lol that all of Robert's illegitimate children instinctively take to him even though he typically treats their mothers like shit.

I was more than a bit dubious of that line, considering Robert wasn't a good father to his kids or Cersei's. It doesn't sound like he even met any of his bastards aside from Mya and Edric, and what would Cersei know about his interactions with them when they were babies? It sounds like she's saying her fully Lannister baby rejected an inferior specimen but Robert's lowborn bastards were uncouth enough to like him just like their stupid whore mothers did. And I found Cersei equating him with Tyrion to be pretty disgusting as Robert was loved by pretty much everyone except Lyanna and the Lannisters but still always wanted more because he was a selfish creep, while Tyrion is desperate for love because he never experienced parental love and instead Tywin and Cersei abused him and did everything they could to make him fear he was unlovable. Cersei finds Tyrion wanting love to be unreasonable and pointless because she thinks he doesn't deserve love and that everyone should be repulsed by him. And it's not like she doesn't want love for herself, as you said, she wants worship, which if anything, is going even further.

 

I'm very forgiving of the fire. Sansa is terrified because she knows her moon's blood means marriage to Joffrey. She knows she can't trust anyone and that she has to get rid of the evidence because any servant who walks through the door will report her to Cersei. She doesn't have many resources available to her in the room itself. Its not like she could wash her sheets and clothing herself. She has to destroy the proof so I can't say I blame her for trying fire. I'd imagine this is where sheltered Sansa comes into play; even in Winterfell there are servants who take care of the fire and Sansa doesn't strike my as the type of kid who'd poke in the ashes. She probably didn't understand how badly things could get. She's frantic and I don't get the sense from her chapter she thinks this will work, but she tries because the alternative is far worse. I honestly think the image of her trying to burn it down is one of strength. She's trying to save herself, even if she doesn't really stand a chance.

Bingo, she was acting on pure panic and terror, intelligence and rational reasoning had nothing to do with her actions. Ignoring that her moonblood was still flowing was also a pretty big lapse. To think that her own body was betraying her to Joffrey is just horrifying.

 

This chapter reminded me that Dontos is yet another guy who acts creepy towards Sansa.  She seems to be a magnet for it.

Yeah, I don't think he was trying to help her out of pure gratitude. He's stringing her along at this point, but sadly, he is the only option she's got to go home.

Stan's army is just outside the city limits, countdown to Blackwater, folks! Woo!

[Avaleigh]

Excuse me for getting hung up on plural brothers again, but it was weird to me that Sansa didn't just call for Robb's help in her dream. Was that some crazy dream logic at work thinking a cripple and/or a 4yo could save her? (They possibly could, as wargs, but Sansa has no way of knowing that, in dreams or awake.) Sure, Ryam Redwyne and Aemon the Dragonknight weren't great bets either, but she called their names only at the end, because they were known as great knights. Is it possible she meant Robb and Jon here?

I was more than a bit dubious of that line, considering Robert wasn't a good father to his kids or Cersei's. It doesn't sound like he even met any of his bastards aside from Mya and Edric, and what would Cersei know about his interactions with them when they were babies? It sounds like she's saying her fully Lannister baby rejected an inferior specimen but Robert's lowborn bastards were uncouth enough to like him just like their stupid whore mothers did. And I found Cersei equating him with Tyrion to be pretty disgusting as Robert was loved by pretty much everyone except Lyanna and the Lannisters but still always wanted more because he was a selfish creep, while Tyrion is desperate for love because he never experienced parental love and instead Tywin and Cersei abused him and did everything they could to make him fear he was unlovable. Cersei finds Tyrion wanting love to be unreasonable and pointless because she thinks he doesn't deserve love and that everyone should be repulsed by him. And it's not like she doesn't want love for herself, as you said, she wants worship, which if anything, is going even further.

 

Bingo, she was acting on pure panic and terror, intelligence and rational reasoning had nothing to do with her actions. Ignoring that her moonblood was still flowing was also a pretty big lapse. To think that her own body was betraying her to Joffrey is just horrifying.

 

Yeah, I don't think he was trying to help her out of pure gratitude. He's stringing her along at this point, but sadly, he is the only option she's got to go home.

Stan's army is just outside the city limits, countdown to Blackwater, folks! Woo!

I figured it was something that Robert threw in her face when Joffrey would cry when he'd hold him. Maybe not specifics but more like, 'Babies always love me, what's this kid's problem?' Cersei knows about his bastards so she just puts two and two together.

 

I have no sense of what Robert's impressions were of Myrcella and Tommen. He seemed like didn't give them the time of day. Joffrey was only on his radar because he was the heir.

 

I'll add that it isn't just with Tyrion. I don't really think that Cersei thinks that anyone deserves love. I don't think that love is something that she understands or values even when it comes to her children. She might think that some of her decisions are made out of love but I struggle to think of an example where she's done anything out of love. With Tyrion, I feel like it's more about her punishing him for existing and unfairly blaming him for killing their mother.

 

I'm posting Jon's next chapter in a bit because I'm anxious to get to the Blackwater. 

[Avaleigh]

Jon VII

 

Jon starts talking to Qhorin about how it went with Ygritte and mentions that Ygritte said Mance would probably accept him if he were to run off and abandon the Night's Watch. Qhorin says Ygritte was telling the truth and comments that he knew Mance back when Mance was still a ranger. Jon realizes that Qhorin and Mance were friends before Mance deserted.

 

Jon asks why Mance deserted and Qhorin thinks that Mance ultimately preferred the wild to the Wall. He says that Mance was born to the wildlings so in a way it was like he was returning home. Jon asks if Mance was a good ranger.

 

“He was the best of us,” said the Halfhand, “and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey.”

 

Jon says that he isn't much better at obeying and admits that he let Ygritte go. Qhorin asks Jon why he spared her and Jon said that when he looked into Ygritte's eyes he knew there was no evil in her. Qhorin admits that if he'd really wanted Ygritte dead then he'd either have had Ebben see to her or he would have killed her himself. Jon asks Qhorin why he commanded him to kill her and Qhorin says that he simply commanded that Jon do what needs to be done. He explains that he has a better idea now of what kind of man Jon is after seeing how he responded to the situation.

 

Jon dreams of direwolves later that evening and thinks about how there are five of them now when there should be six. He's seeing through the eyes of Ghost when he comes across a weirwood that appears to have his brother's face. He wonders if his brother always had three eyes and there's a "silent shout" that tells him it wasn't always so.

 

The tree reaches down and touches him and he suddenly finds himself back in the mountains. He's looking down into the valley and sees a huge host of men training for war. He thinks that it isn't an army or town so much as it's a large gathering of people. An eagle suddenly comes out of nowhere to attack him and this causes Jon to finally wake up.

 

The men listen to Jon talk about his dream and Qhorin understands that Jon has had a wolf dream. Ebben mentions a skinchanger and Jon wonders if Ebben is talking about him. Jon thinks that skinchangers and wargs are something out of Old Nan's stories but feels that such things are easier to believe now that he's in the wild beyond the Wall. Qhorin seems unsettled.

 

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?”

 

When the group sets out again, Ghost still hasn't returned and Jon begins to worry about him because of the eagle attack in the dream. He also thinks about the weirwood that had his brother's face and wonders why the tree smelled like darkness and death.

 

Squire Dalbridge points out an eagle that appears to be watching them. Ebben doesn't like the idea of the eagle staring at them and wants to shoot it, but isn't close enough.

 

Jon eventually spots Ghost and sees that he's been injured by the eagle. After Ghost's wounds are washed and bandaged, Yoren tells the men that they'll have to turn back since they've been spotted by the eagle.

 

When they get near the place where the wildlings were killed, Squire Dalbridge agrees to stay behind with a bunch of arrows in order to give the others more time to get away. Jon realizes that Dalbridge is staying to die and Dalbridge tells the men to make sure his horse is given an apple when they get home.

 

At dawn, they see that the eagle is flying over them and soon hear the call of a hunting horn. Qhorin says that the wildlings are coming.

[Avaleigh]

That weirwood!!

 

It already has Bran's face, it has three eyes, and it can move? I definitely wasn't expecting the tree to reach down and touch Ghost. How do I not remember that? 

 

Squire Dalbridge sacrifices himself and only Qhorin grabs his arm to say goodbye? I thought there would be a couple more handshakes or hugs considering how the guy is really taking one for the team. 

 

I liked getting confirmation that Qhorin was indeed giving Jon the chance to let Ygritte live. Knowing that Qhorin's death is coming up reminds me of how many good men the Night's Watch loses in such a short period of time. 

 

Tyrion is next and after that we'll be up to that excellent Catelyn chapter where she talks to Jaime. 

[Lady S.]

Mance Rayder's backstory is pretty interesting, especially in a story full of people living with their enemies. He was raised by his family's killers and became one of them, but they restricted him too much trying to make him theirs.

I think this is actually another area where lack of horses was a big change. Here, Ygritte was no threat without weapons or a horn because she was on foot. But on the show there was actually a reason to kill her and Jon got the rest of the men killed.

The Bran-faced weirwood is set up so that, at the end of the book, you think he was contacting Jon from the crypts, but knowing what we know now I think he was definitely calling from Bloodraven's cave. The description of stone, dirt, and the smell of death fit the crypts and the cave, but Bran's only just learning how to be a warg in the crypts, it was Bloodraven who truly opened his third eye. Bloodraven told Bran he only the power to watch, not make contact, but it seemed like Ned heard something in that vision and Theon definitely heard him in the godswood. Entering someone's wolf dreams and talking to him that way feels like a whole different level, though.

The other striking aspect of the dream is the first evidence that skinchangers can sense other skinchangers. Orell the eagle knew Jon was inside Ghost, he wouldn't just attack every wild animal he saw.

Here we see why Jon is important to this ranging. His feigned desertion to the wildlings is set up, but I don't think Qhorin was planning that before. He's not very surprised by Jon's dream and the others all believe in it quickly enough, so I think that's what he meant when choosing Jon, speaking of the blood of the Starks and the old powers of the North. Again, a big contrast to the show where Jon invited himself and they made him look as useless as possible.

[nodorothyparker]

Catching up yet again.  My heart always kind of breaks for Sansa in her chapter because you can see that she's not holding it together very well even before she gets up to the roof.  The Kingsguard have finally stopped beating on her only because invasion is imminent and they've got other stuff to do but she's still surrounded by creepy older men being creepy to her because she has no obvious male protector and they can.  And that's before you get to the fear of said coming invasion and Joffrey hanging over her head.  So I completely buy her panicking at the sight of her first period and what it means in the larger picture for her and grasping onto the first thing she can think of.

 

Some of what the Hound is saying to her is rough and really not helpful to her right now but a lot of it is basically a less elegant version of some of what we'll hear from Jaime in a chapter or two.  Dressing something up in talk of honor doesn't automatically make it so.

 

Cersei's certainly not being warm or comforting at all, but that's not who she is and she's not really saying anything that isn't true from her worldview.  I find her choosing to tell Sansa how Robert always bailed when she gave birth but Jaime stayed interesting in filling in what both men's roles really were to her, as well as her little smirk when Sansa parrots the High Septon referring to Joffrey as the rightful king.  I quite like her line about Robert suffering from the same thing Tyrion does of wanting to be loved.  They were obviously coming at from very different angles but I think there's some truth in it.  Robert won the throne when he was still relatively young but lost the woman he was convinced was his one true love.  When we meet him he's pretty cynical about it all and seems pretty clearheaded that most of the people surrounding him only love him because he's the king.  Whoever said above that all the Baratheons suffered from this to an extent was spot on.

 

I actually like this chapter a lot because it's great atmospherically in showing a city that knows it's about to be in for a really bad time.

Edited March 28, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[nodorothyparker]

I've really liked Jon's last couple of chapters.  Even if the wildlings aren't major characters yet, they've gone a long way toward humanizing them where they had previously either been painted mostly as boogeymen or just utterly disgusting like Craster.  Mance's backstory is a big clue that he's going to be a character of some nuance and not a one-note villain coming to attack the Wall just because.

 

Qhorin's utter lack of surprise at Jon's dream and skinchanging shows he knew full well what he was doing when he picked Jon for the expedition.  It again makes me wonder what he and some of these other guys know that they accepted it so readily.  Yet no one took the time to really explain it to Jon.

 

The description of these chapters is incredibly vivid in painting how utterly bleak and unforgiving the land beyond the Wall is.  Even though I know people survive in very harsh climates in real life, I'm always amazed that anyone or anything can manage to live or grow there.

Edited March 28, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion XII

 

Varys hands Tyrion a message with news from the north that Bran and Rickon are dead. Tyrion remembers how the wolves howled after Bran's fall and wonders if they're howling now. He tells Varys that he'll deliver the news to Cersei and thinks to himself that he wants to witness her reaction.

 

Tyrion shows his sister the letter about the deaths of the Stark boys and asks if she's pleased since she wanted Bran dead. Cersei glares and replies that Jaime is the one to blame for Bran's fall. Tyrion gets confirmation that Bran saw the twins together, but Cersei claims that it would have been her preference to attempt to frighten Bran into silence. They talk about the possibility that the Starks will kill Jaime over the deaths of the boys.

 

They discuss how they've had no word from Littlefinger or Bitterbridge, and Cersei takes the opportunity to claim that she's never trusted Baelish. Cersei believes that he would go over to Stannis for enough money, but Tyrion explains that Stannis isn't the type to buy men and says he isn't exactly Littlefinger's type of lord anyway.

 

When the discussion turns to the conspiracy with the Antler Men, Cersei tells Tyrion that he places too much trust in Varys. She says that Varys was the same way with her during the early years of her marriage to Robert. She mentions to Tyrion that Varys has told her that he plans on having the Hound taken from Joffrey. Tyrion says that the Hound is needed for more important duties and Cersei argues that nothing is more important than guarding the king.

 

Tyrion feels that Joffrey should be seen during the battle and this makes Cersei emphasize the fact that Joffrey is only thirteen. Tyrion asks Cersei to remember Jaime at thirteen and tells her to give Joffrey the chance to play at being his father.

 

Cersei asks Tyrion why Varys is so dangerous and tells him she thinks it's because Varys doesn't have a cock. Tyrion comments on how Cersei seems to hate not having one herself, and Cersei says perhaps this means she's dangerous as well. She tells Tyrion that his cock does half of his thinking for him.

 

Tyrion doesn't like the look on his sister's face and tells her he's ready to take his leave. She asks him if he's unwell and tells him that he looks flustered. He suddenly regrets coming to the dinner alone and feels his stomach churning when Cersei reveals to him that she has his whore.

 

Tyrion wonders how Cersei found out about Shae and wonders if Varys has betrayed him. He asks his sister why she cares who he has sex with and she replies that a 'Lannister always pays his debts.' She accuses Tyrion of scheming against her from the moment he arrived in King's Landing. She says that he sold Myrcella, stole Tommen, and is now plotting to have Joffrey killed. She believes that Tyrion wants Joffrey dead so that he can rule the throne through Tommen. Tyrion thinks to himself that it's a tempting thought.

 

Tyrion tells Cersei that she needs him especially since Stannis will be arriving any day now. He lies and claims that Bronn and his sellswords will never fight without him. Cersei isn't really buying this but tells Tyrion not to worry. She admits that in the past she's entertained the idea of having his throat slit but ultimately feels that Jaime would never forgive her.

 

Tyrion asks how 'the whore' will be treated and Cersei promises that she'll be gently treated provided that no harm comes to Joffrey or Tommen. If anything happens to either of Cersei's sons she promises that 'the whore' will die painfully.

 

Tyrion stared at the dregs on the bottom of his wine cup. What would Jaime do in my place? Kill the bitch, most likely, and worry about the consequences afterward. But Tyrion did not have a golden sword, nor the skill to wield one. He loved his brother’s reckless wrath, but it was their lord father he must try and emulate. Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable. If I fail this test, I had as lief seek out the nearest grotesquerie. “For all I know, you’ve killed her already,” he said.

 

The Kettleblack brothers bring the woman in and Tyrion is surprised to see a bound and gagged Alayaya rather than Shae. Tyrion demands that Alayaya be kept safe and promises that anything that happens to her will happen to Tommen as well and that includes rape and beatings. Cersei tells Tyrion that he wouldn't dare and Tyrion replies that he'll do it himself if need be.

 

Tyrion has Alayaya untied and takes the gag out of her mouth. He tells her to be brave and says he's sorry they hurt her. She tells him that she knows he'll free her and he promises that he will. Alayaya kisses Tyrion on the forehead and he feels guilty thinking that she never would have been hurt were it not for him.

 

Her blood still marked him as he looked down at the queen. “I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You’ve ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don’t know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you’ll know the debt is paid.”

 

Cersei tells Tyrion to get out of her sight, so he says goodnight, wishes her pleasant dreams, and leaves.

 

Shae is waiting for Tyrion in his room back at the Tower of the Hand. He surprised to see her there and she says it should be fine because Lollys is asleep. She's disgusted with Lollys doing nothing but eating and sleeping and comments that all the men did was fuck her. She also confirms that Lollys is pregnant from her ordeal. 

 

Shae tell Tyrion that Varys helped her find her way into the room but made her wear a hood so that she wouldn't be able to see. She wants to have sex but Tyrion can't, so she falls asleep and he continues to lie awake in the dark.  

Edited March 28, 2016 by Avaleigh

[vibeology]

Such an interesting chapter. The first part of the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion is actually hopeful. I always forget what's coming and so I think if these two can just manage to cobble something together, I think they'd do alright ruling King's Landing. Tyrion is right that Joffrey needs to be seen during battle, but Cersei is also right; Joffrey isn't Robert or Jaime and needs someone very loyal to keep him safe. Seeing them compare notes on Varys and Littlefinger is extraordinary and it’s a shame that they won't listen to each other more. Tyrion has the type of man Littlefinger is pegged but Cersei sees that he's someone who is desperate to move up and will take risks to do it. The discussion of Varys is even stronger. Cersei knows from real life experience that he isn't on their side but Tyrion has found that he's easy to rely on. In the end, Cersei is too paranoid and insecure to be a reliable ruler and Tyrion far too bitter and passionate.

 

The moment when the conversation turns is brutal. There is no going back for these two from this point on. Cersei doesn’t like or trust Tyrion (thanks, Tywin) so she sees in his actions the worst motivations. Making an alliance with Dorne was a good move. Of all the parts of Westeros that have traditionally been the least stable, Dorne is just chilling during the war when they could be agitating like the Iron Islands. Getting Tommen out of the city was even smarter. Joffrey’s heir should not be in the same place as Joffrey while there is danger just outside of the walls. Cersei, though, is too hateful now to see it and assumes the very worst of Tyrion. She thinks he wants to use her children to gain power (because that’s exactly what she’s doing and cannot imagine people to have other motives) and she thinks he wants on the throne. (again, because she wants that more than anything) And yes, Tyrion is drawn to power and loves being Hand, what really drives Tyrion is a need to be loved unconditionally.

 

Tyrion’s reaction to Cersei’s threat is equally foolish. He lets his anger take over completely, threatening Tommen, threatening Cersei  and making sure to use his words to awe the room (because that is one way he makes himself feel powerful) and making sure there is no way back ever to a workable relationship between the two. And I get it on some level because Cersei is awful and Alayaya is this innocent girl who is learning to read so he’s full of fury, but for someone who wants to be stone like he’s father, he totally loses his cool. He’s reminded again that Cersei hates him, that the woman he “loves” is in danger because of his family and his own choices and that for all the good he does, no one will ever see him as anything other than a dwarf, with all the cultural baggage that carries. Everything that happens from here on out with Tyrion happens because he couldn’t keep his mouth shut with Cersei in this moment.

[Avaleigh]

I can't help it, I laughed at not-so-subtle Cersei serving Tyrion blackberry tarts for dessert. God, she's such a bitch. 

 

I'm again reminded of how neither of them gives a shit about the food shortage in King's Landing. Last chapter he saw children fighting over rotten fish and they're stuffing their faces while they know perfectly well that war is coming. Tyrion doesn't even feel a pang he's just like 'Ooh, my sister has set a nice table.'

 

I find it interesting that Tyrion and Cersei have both given serious thought to murdering the other and it's only Jaime that keeps them from going there. I wonder if Jaime even fully gets that. 

 

I agree that the conversation about Varys and Littlefinger is interesting and that if they trusted each other more they'd probably be able to see through more of the manipulation on both sides. It totally works to the advantage of their enemies that they can't stand each other. I'd say that an even bigger problem for House Lannister apart from Joffrey being a bad seed and Tywin's scorched earth tactics, is all of the infighting and lack of trust in general from within the family. 

 

Also, if I'm looking at it objectively, Cersei is right when she says that Tyrion has been working against her and lying to her since the day of his arrival. She doesn't even know half of the lies but from her perspective she seems to have every reason to be wary of him.

 

Every time Tyrion decides that he wants to play the monster it ends up bringing out the worst in him. 

 

Regarding Dorne...I can see how this looked like a good idea on paper but in retrospect it probably would have been better if Myrcella had been betrothed to someone else.