The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[benteen]

Not to mention if Sansa sees the physical scars of what Jeyne goes through, she might be more inclined to believe her.

[Hecate7]

Jeyne was Sansa's best friend, to whom she was closer than her own sister. Moreover, Sansa knows that Littlefinger is a devious guy - she just doesn't know the extent to which he has been acting against her own family and friends.

 

It'd be pretty easy to be closer to Sansa than her own sister. Bar's set pretty low there.

 

But you're not understanding women in patriarchy. Generally, unless the woman has direct experience of abuse by the man, herself, she will believe the man, not the woman accusing him. That is why mothers throw their own daughters out of the house for accusing the boyfriend of molestation. Sisters break up when the sister complains of rape but the husband says "rape hell, she begged me," and the wife believes the husband. It is only very recently that we've begun to believe women at all.

 

The crucial part isn't how close the women are--sister, best friend, daughter--doesn't matter. Women throw away those relationships for men all the time.

And it's been a very long time since Jeyne and Sansa were close. The important question is, how dependent on the man, is the woman? How much does she need him? In this case Sansa is completely dependent on Littlefinger. She is blindly loyal to him, and unless she sees a chance at real independence and/or a better protector presents himself, she will take Littlefinger's word against Jeyne's. In fact she'll take his word over that of 50 women, unless she sees it with her own eyes, or he does something directly to her, or she finds out what he did to Ned. That's the usual way of it. Catelyn's hatred of Jon Snow is a variation on this theme. It's never my husband's fault--it's those scheming women, or those lying employees, or those rotten little bastards.

  Why are we talking about this in the Book 1 thread?

Edited August 3, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Sansa is being moved to a point where she is going to strike out from Littlefinger.  It will be the point where she has the motivation to try to make her own opportunities.  I don't know that news about Jeyne will be what does it, but that moment is coming.

[Lady S.]

You're right, Cersei deserves as much of the blame as Littlefinger with what happened to Jeyne.

There also seems to be an implication that Cersei is annoyed Jeyne wasn't just killed in the fighting, so she disposes of the less valuable hostage by sending her into sex slavery instead.

Another little thing which comes across to me on re-read is Littlefinger's remark about Sansa being like her mother. How is that in any way better, given what happened with Cat and Tyrion? The Lannisters are already at war against the Tullys and Cersei wants Sansa to send a hostage note to Catelyn as well as Robb, so Littlefinger must have been going off-script at that point just because he got lost in the sight of Sansa's red hair again.

[Avaleigh]

Jon VII

Two of Benjen Stark's men have been found dead by the Night's Watch. Their corpses are pale, their hands black, and their lifeless eyes are bright blue. Jon thinks about how he'd begged his uncle to go on the ranging with him and sees how easily he might have been killed if he had.

The hounds and horses are acting unsettled and jittery, and even Jon thinks to himself that he doesn't like the place any more than they do. Jon tries to tell himself that he's seen dead men before so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the cast. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy.

Sam is half hiding and can't bring himself to look at the dead bodies. Jon tells Sam that he needs to snap out of it and force himself to look because he's there to be Maester Aemon's eyes and ears. Sam reminds Jon that he's a coward but Jon says that there isn't any reason for Sam to be afraid considering how they're there with a dozen other rangers in addition to having Ghost and the hounds. He again urges Sam to look at the dead bodies and Sam eventually complies.

Lord Commander Mormont wonders what became of the other four men who road with Benjen and wants to know how it's possible that these two guys were killed within sight of the Wall without any of the rangers apparently seeing or hearing a thing. Mormont notes that one of them men had a horn on him but Ser Jaremy Rykker insists that the horn was never blown or else it would have been heard.

Ser Jaremy is starting to get frustrated that Mormont is questioning the competence of the rangers and explains that not only was he following Mormont's orders to remain close to the Wall but he doesn't have enough men to do proper patrolling anyway. Mormont grunts an acknowledgement of this and then asks how the two men died.

One of the men seems to have been killed with an ax and Jon briefly seems like he's going to hurl, but the moment passes and he's able to force himself to look at the other body.

Ser Jaremy speculates that wildlings may have killed the rangers but Mormont seems doubtful that Mance Rayder would attack so close to the Wall. Ser Jaremy asks who else it could be but Jon is pretty sure they all know what it could have been and starts thinking about the tales of the Others.

The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years. Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

Mormont thinks that if the wildlings were responsible then Benjen would have alerted the Wall and asked for more men so that he could handle it. Ser Jaremy says it's possible that Benjen was killed before he could take such measures.

Ser Jaremy theorizes that Benjen and his men were attacked by wildlings and thinks that the two men were probably racing back to the Wall before the wildlings caught up to them to finish them off. Ser Jaremy says that the bodies have likely only been dead for a day.

Sam nervously calls out from his partial hiding spot and disagrees that the men were so recently killed. Ser Jaremy isn't too happy about being contradicted and Chett makes a crack about Sam pissing himself at the sight of blood, but Sam gives his logical reasons for why it looks like the bodies have been dead longer and Jon immediately sees the sense in what his friend is saying.

Ser Jaremy is still unconvinced however and insists that if the bodies had been dead for so long that they'd have deteriorated a lot more than they have. Dywen sides with Jaremy and says that these don't smell like bodies that have been dead for some time.

Sam shows the men that the two corpses aren't rotting for some reason. All of the usual signs of rot aren't in evidence and even the animals won't go near the bodies. Ghost is the only exception to this and Jon agrees with Sam that the corpses appear to be untouched save the one whose hand was collected by Ghost.

The rangers all exchange glances and it's clear that they're becoming convinced. Mormont orders Chett to bring the hounds closer but the animals refuse and one ends up running off after it seems like she's going to be forced to get near the dead bodies.

Sam is doing more of his forensic analysis and continues to find peculiarities. He points out that there should be blood all over the place with those sorts of wounds yet the snow around the bodies doesn't have any blood in it. Dywen suggests that maybe the bodies were killed elsewhere and later dumped in front of the Wall as a kind of warning.

Dywen and Ser Jaremy both observe that neither man had those bright blue eyes in life.

Two rangers call out that the bodies should be burned but Mormont wants to bring the bodies back so that Maester Aemon can have a look at them.

The horses flat out refuse to carry the corpses and they're eventually forced to build slings so that the bodies can be carried back on foot.

Mormont commands Ser Jaremy to have his men do a full search of the woods. He wants Benjen found once and for all whether he's alive or dead and wants to find whoever is responsible.

They ride back in silence for a time and Jon thinks to himself a bit about the changing seasons and seems to believe that a long summer will likely mean a long winter.

Ghost runs off into the trees for awhile and without the close protection of his direwolf, Jon starts to feel pretty unsettled and he can't help but start to think of Old Nan's scary stories about the Others.

As they're approaching the Wall, Jon feels relieved and Mormont suddenly calls Sam to come over to join them. He says that Sam may be fat but he certainly isn't stupid and tells Sam and Jon that they've both done well on this day. Sam has an 'aw, shucks' moment and Jon smiles at seeing his friend being complimented for a change.

Ghost comes back from out of the woods and his muzzle is all bloody from his latest kill.

The Night's Watch blows the horn to announce the returning of the rangers and Jon thinks to himself that if nothing else, at least he can say that he was permitted to be a ranger for a day.

Bowen Marsh is waiting for them at the gate and tells Mormont that there's been a raven. Maester Aemon has the letter and is waiting with it in Mormont's solar. Jon notes that Marsh gives him a curious glance as he's giving this information.

As Jon starts walking through the yard he realizes that people are staring at him and Donal Noye actually calls out to him that he hopes the gods are good to him.

Jon knows that something is wrong.

Jon attends to some of his duties and finally asks Pyp what the hell is going on. Pyp tells him that the King is dead. Jon thinks this means that Ned will likely soon return to Winterfell. He thinks about how he'd like to see Arya again and is resolved to ask Ned about his mother once and for all.

Jon heads over to see Mormont and is informed that Mormont has been asking for him. Jon tries to tell himself that Mormont just wants wine and to be waited on as usual, but he seems to already sense that he's in for some bad news.

Once Jon is in Mormont's solar, he finds that the Lord Commander does indeed want some wine but then he throws Jon by telling Jon to pour himself a cup as well. Jon pours wine for them both but doesn't sit when Mormont tells him to and ask Mormont if the news is about his father.

Mormont talks about how much Robert loved hunting and makes comments about how people are often destroyed by the things they love. Mormont cites his own son as an example and feels that he would never have got into trouble had it not been for his vain wife.

Jon doesn't really know what Mormont is talking about and again asks to know what's happening with his father.

Mormont repeats his request for Jon to sit and drink his wine and Jon finally complies.

Jon gets the news that his father is currently in prison for treason. Like Sansa when she was first told, Jon immediately insists that there's no way that Ned would do anything like that. He's sure it's a lie and that his father wouldn't do anything so dishonorable. At same time, a hint of doubt creeps into Jon's thoughts here and he acknowledges that Ned was apparently dishonorable enough to father a bastard so perhaps there's a possibility.

Jon asks Mormont if Ned will be killed and Mormont replies that he doesn't know but he does plan on sending a letter requesting that Ned be allowed to take the black. He mentions that he knows Stannis, Pycelle, and Selmy from back in the day and points out that it would be great for the Night's Watch if they could add a man like Ned to their numbers.

Jon wonders if Joffrey would even be open to sending Ned to the Wall and Mormont hopes that the Queen might be able to see the sense in the plan. At the same time Mormont wishes that Tyrion were in King's Landing because he thinks he'd have an easier time convincing the small council of how much help is desperately needed up at the Wall. He says it sucks that Jon's mother took Tyrion captive and Jon sharply reminds Mormont that the Lady Catelyn is NOT his mother.

Jon asks after his sisters and Mormont says that while they weren't mentioned in the letter there isn't any reason to think the girls won't be gently treated.

Mormont then tells Jon that he hopes Jon isn't going to try anything stupid. He emphasizes to Jon that his duty is to the Watch and says that they cannot involve themselves in the affairs of the realm.

Jon is feeling pretty numb as he leaves the solar and wonders to himself how he can keep from being involved when the situation involves his family. People call out to Jon and make comments about the general cruelty of the gods.

Ghost stays by Jon's side as he goes through the rest of the day in a kind of fog and the presence of his direwolf comforts him. He then feels sad that Arya and Sansa no longer have their wolves around to protect them.

At dinner, the cook Hobb gives Jon an extra serving of food and Jon realizes that everyone knows what has happened to Ned and that the situation is Bad.

Jon's friends try to make him feel better and they tell Jon that they know Ned is being taken down by lies and bullshit. Sam tells Jon that Jon is his brother now so for him, it's as though Ned is his father too and he offers to go with Jon to pray in front of the weirwood trees if that's what Jon wants to do.

Jon acknowledges to himself that Sam is willing to deal with fears of going beyond the Wall if it means that he'll be able to be helpful and supportive of Jon in some way. Jon sees that his friends are his brothers now.

Just as Jon is being touched by how his friends have been so understanding and supportive, he hears Alliser Thorne laughing about how Jon is the bastard son of a traitor.

Jon instantly sees red and before anyone can stop him, he kicks Thorne's bowl of stew out of his hand has a dagger in the guy's face. It's pretty clear that nobody in the room was expecting this shit, least of all Thorne.

Sam, Grenn, Toad, and Pyp all basically jump in to diffuse the situation with Sam being the one to put himself between Thorne and Jon's dagger. Toad is the one to disarm Jon.

Jon is forced to go to his cell and Mormont visits him there with a lecture about how they discussed that Jon wasn't to do anything stupid.

Jon is permitted to have Ghost with him while he's locked in his cell.

Jon eventually drifts off to sleep and ends up being woken by an anxious and snarling Ghost. Jon asks Ghost what's up and then wonders why it's so freakishly cold all of a sudden.

Ghost is clawing at the door so Jon tries to open it and is surprised that it isn't locked. Outside of his cell, Jon sees a dead guard and the man's head has been twisted around completely.

Jon feels like he's in some kind of nightmare and wonders how any of this can be happening.

Jon hears noises coming from Mormont's rooms so he grabs the sword of the dead guard and goes off to investigate. Once Jon and Ghost make it to Mormont's rooms, Jon soon sees the intruder and Ghost begins attacking. Mormont's raven shrieks about corn as all this is happening.

The intruder seems like it's getting the better of Ghost so Jon jumps in and manages to sever one of its arms. Once Jon starts hacking away at the body he realizes that it's one of the dead bodies he saw earlier that day.

As Jon is grappling with the fact that he's just seen a dead body come back to life in monstrous fashion, the severed arm begins to claw and rip at his leg.

Also, even though Jon has wounded the wight so that half of his head is hanging off, the wight is still attacking Jon as though it doesn't seem to feel pain at all.

Ghost starts to crunch down on the severed arm and Jon continues to battle the wight.

The wight begins to overpower Jon and the next thing Jon knows this creature has its hand in his mouth and is shoving it down his throat so that he can't breathe.

As Jon is struggling to breathe, Ghost jumps on the wight so that Jon can break free. While Jon is on the ground gasping for breath, a naked Mormont suddenly stumbles out to see what the hell is going on.

The severed and now fingerless arm starts to work its way towards Mormont. Jon manages to kick the arm away and grabs the lamp that Mormont is holding. Mormont's raven starts shrieking the word "Burn!" over and over again.

Jon uses the lamp and drapes to set a fire and first burns the severed arm. He then gets some of the burning drapes on to the body of the wight and prays to the gods that it will burn.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Again, like with the prologue, there's this kind of delay when it comes to the wights being brought back to life. Their eyes are already blue but they aren't moving and on the show they're reanimated almost instantly.

I liked Rykker defending himself with the Old Bear. He's basically telling Mormont that not only was he doing as instructed but he isn't a wizard and he needs practical support in the form of more men to be able to accomplish what Mormont wants of him.

I really like the way most of the men seem to have sympathy for Jon and try to make him feel better. You get a sense off the Wall being a kind of family. Save Thorne of course.

I definitely didn't remember Jon trying to attach Thorne like that. God, Thorne is an asshole.

Another thing that stands out to me is how Sansa and Jon have similar reactions to hearing about Ned's so-called treason. With Jon though, because of the whole bastard issue, he has a shred of doubt that Sansa doesn't really have. It's so unfair on Ned but I'm seeing over and over how telling this one (admittedly huge) lie has forever after convinced almost everyone even those who know him well that he might be capable of other dishonorable behavior.

Mormont is a little optimistic for a hardened man of the Night's Watch. He's also out of the loop when it comes to Stannis no longer being on the small council.

Another brief mention of Lynesse Hightower. I wonder why she didn't bring any money of her own to the marriage. Interesting that the Old Bear seems to blame her more than he blames Jorah for what happened there.

[benteen]

I think a lot of fathers would prefer to believe that it was really their son's spouse that corrupted him instead of believing it was their son.  Lynesse seemed to have brought out a new, unseen side of Jorah.  His worst side, which rears its ugly head with Dany and Tyrion later on in the books.

 

Great point about Lynesse apparently not bringing any money with her when she got married.  Her father was a rich and intelligent man, probably not unmindful of what to expect on Bear Island.  Later on, Jorah says he had to convince him to marry his daughter.  Why didn't he provide some kind of dowry?  Maybe Lord Hightower just knew the kind of woman his daughter was and wanted to get rid of her...

 

I like the sympathy the men of the Night's Watch showed toward Jon as well.  Having seen Season 1 first before reading the books, I was surprised as just how viscerally Jon goes after Thorne.

[DigitalCount]

For me, the standout is how much wights seem to love choking people. Hopefully that'll be important later.

So was the guard trying to get Jon to safety when he was killed? I assume that's why the door was unlocked. Sad if so.

[Holmbo]

Great point about Lynesse apparently not bringing any money with her when she got married. Her father was a rich and intelligent man, probably not unmindful of what to expect on Bear Island. Later on, Jorah says he had to convince him to marry his daughter. Why didn't he provide some kind of dowry? Maybe Lord Hightower just knew the kind of woman his daughter was and wanted to get rid of her...

Haha now I imagine lord Hightower springing a wedding on them. Of you want to get married? Here's a septon, now do it. Edited August 6, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

This is the chapter, other than the tourney, where I really think we missed out due to s1's lower budget. The wight attack feels so much more suspenseful on the page. Just imagine if Jon's struggle with Othor had Hardhome-level SFX.

I like the sympathy the men of the Night's Watch showed toward Jon as well.  Having seen Season 1 first before reading the books, I was surprised as just how viscerally Jon goes after Thorne.

That's another thing I miss on the show, Book Jon's berserker temper, first he goes off on Toad for calling his mother a whore, then Thorne for calling Ned a traitor, and he does this at least two more times in Storm. Guess it's either wolf blood or waking the dragon, huh? But the lack of such hotheadedness is what made me feel tv Jon's emoness was heightened, it wasn't really until s3 that he got to do much besides pout and chuckle at Arya or Sam.

I loved the lines about Jon realizing Sam really was his brother after Sam offered to go to the godswood beyond the Wall with him, and his worry over the girls because they'd both lost their wolves. Also, I'm assuming that line means he's had some further letter from Winterfell after the one about Bran waking up, because I don't see how Robb would already know about Nymeria and Lady when he wrote that letter.

[Avaleigh]

Bran VI

 

Bran, Maester Luwin, and Hodor are watching the arrival of the men of House Karstark. The men are being led by Lord Rickard and, according to Old Nan, the Karstarks share blood with the Starks dating back hundreds of years. Bran doesn't think they look like Starks as he's viewing the men via Maester Luwin's fareye.

Bran is upset that he wasn't permitted to ride outside of the castle to see the men and the village now full of people, but Robb says that they don't have any men to spare to guard Bran.

Bran tries to argue that the protection of Summer will be enough but Robb isn't going for it and basically tells Bran to stop acting like such a child. Robb brings up the fact that just two days ago one of Lord Bolton's men killed one of Lord Cerwyn's men down in the village, so it's probably better for them to be careful. Bran hears that Robb is using his 'Robb the Lord' voice as he tells him to grow up and knows that there isn't any point in arguing.

The memory of the attack in the wolfswood comes back to Bran and he's certain that it's because of this incident that he isn't currently allowed to leave the castle. He feels ashamed that he was incapable of defending himself during the attack and thinks that at least Rickon would have kicked at the would-be kidnappers.

Bran thinks that if he'd been banned from going to the village back when he could walk that he'd have just snuck out and gone anyway. He thinks about all the times he'd ride into the village on his own before everything happened and remembers having been good enough with a wooden sword to easily knock Prince Tommen into the dirt.

The Stark bannermen are all assembled at Winterfell and at the nightly feasts, Bran is always given a position of honor on Robb's right hand side. Some of the lords stare Bran down and Bran gets the impression that these guys have attitude because they're unhappy about being seated beneath a crippled young boy.

Maester Luwin tells Bran that there are about twelve thousand men who have come in total but only three hundred or so are officially knights. Bran wonders how long it will be before the men march and Luwin replies that they'll have to go soon or not at all.

Bran doesn't want to watch anymore and tells Hodor to take him to the godswood.

Maester Luwin has made a special basket for Hodor to use so that he can carry Bran around on his back. Hodor sometimes forgets that Bran is on his back though and has apparently smacked the kid's head on the occasional door frame.

As they're going through the yard, more men stare at Bran but Bran refuses to let the attention bother him. Maester Luwin has prepared Bran for the way men will likely stare at him and even mock him, but Bran doesn't seem particularly upset about this.

Bran whistles to call Summer over and as Summer goes by the horses, the animals become unnerved by his presence.

Winterfell is super crowded now with more people in attendance than there we're even during Robert's visit.

It's a relief to Bran to get to the peace and quiet of the godswood and once they're there, Bran asks Hodor to go play in the pool so that he can be alone for awhile. He briefly thinks about how Hodor hates cold water but that he'll happily sit in one of the hot pools for hours.
 

Summer lapped at the water and settled down at Bran's side. He rubbed the wolf under the jaw, and for a moment boy and beast both felt at peace. Bran had always liked the godswood, even before, but of late he found himself drawn to it more and more. Even the heart tree no longer scared him the way it used to. The deep red eyes carved into the pale trunk still watched him, yet somehow he took comfort from that now. The gods were looking over him, he told himself; the old gods, gods of the Starks and the First Men and the children of the forest, his father's gods. He felt safe in their sight, and the deep silence of the trees helped him think. Bran had been thinking a lot since his fall; thinking, and dreaming, and talking with the gods.

 

Bran prays to the gods to make it so that Robb won't have to go away. He prays that if Robb does have to go away that he'll be able to come back safe and maybe even bring the rest of the family back with him. He adds that he hopes that Rickon can be made to understand.

Rickon isn't taking the news of Robb's departure well. He's been in full on tantrum mode ever since he found out, so this includes screaming, crying, punching Old Nan, and putting the entire castle into a fright after he appears to have run away. When they finally find Rickon hiding in the crypts, he starts trying to attack his would-be rescuers with a sword. Shaggydog ends up attacking as well and two men end up being wounded. Shaggydog is kept in the kennels after this happens, so now Rickon is even more tearful and bent out of shape.

Maester Luwin advises Robb not to go but Robb insists that he must.

Bran knows that it isn't true that Robb has to be the one to go and knows there are several men that he could send in his place, including Theon Greyjoy. Luwin urges Robb to send someone else but Robb feels that Ned would never have sent other men to fight for him while keeping himself safe at Winterfell.

Bran privately thinks that Robb is almost like a stranger to him these days. He sees that the other lords are trying to test Robb and see what he's willing to put up with and how he'll respond to various requests.

Roose Bolton and Robert Glover both try to make a grab for the honor of battle commander, Maege Mormont and Lord Cerwyn both try to throw their daughters at Robb, and Lord Hornwood basically tries to bribe Robb into letting him have back his grandfather's holdfast among other rather presumptuous requests.

When the Greatjon Umber gets into it with Robb over the order of the March, Umber decides to throw his drink into the fire and break out his greatsword, all while cursing Robb for daring to tell him what would happen if Umber chooses to turn oathbreaker.

 

Yet Robb only said a quiet word, and in a snarl and the blink of an eye Lord Umber was on his back, his sword spinning on the floor three feet away and his hand dripping blood where Grey Wind had bitten off two fingers. "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Bran's bowels went to water as the Greatjon struggled to rise, sucking at the red stumps of fingers . . . but then, astonishingly, the huge man laughed. "Your meat," he roared, "is bloody tough."

 

The Greatjon becomes Robb's right hand man after this happens, and he goes out of his way to tell anyone who will listen that Robb is a true Stark after all and anybody who doesn't bend the knee and get that is probably going to get chomped on somewhere down the road.

Later that evening, Robb goes to Bran and confesses that Umber genuinely had him scared and for a moment he really thought the man might kill him.

Robb then acknowledges that the Greatjon isn't even the scariest of their father's bannermen and cites Roose Bolton with his little torture chamber over at the Dreadfort. Bran says that Old Nan was just telling stories about the Boltons but there's doubt in his voice and Robb seems to think that it could be a real thing.

Robb and Bran both wish that Ned could be there. The brothers have heard all sorts of wild rumors but have no idea if Ned and the girls are alive or not.

Sansa's letter asking Robb and Catelyn to swear fealty to Joffrey has arrived. Robb curses his sister and wonders why the hell she doesn't have the sense to mention what has become of Arya. Bran comments to Robb that Sansa has lost her wolf and remembers the day Lady's bones were returned to Winterfell.
 

Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

Bran muses about how Starks have a history of going to the south only to never return.

Bran again prays to the gods to keep Robb safe and then extends this prayer to include Robb's men as well. He basically tells the gods that they can protect Theon too but only if they really want to.

After Bran finishes praying for the rescue of his father and the defeat of the Lannisters, Osha starts talking with Bran about the Old Gods. She wants to know if Bran can hear them and says that they do indeed respond. Bran says he only hears leaves rustling, but Osha insists that these are the sounds of the gods and that they see and hear everything.

 

It seems that Osha has some sort of arrangement with Gage and she's allowed to go to the godswood to pray in exchange giving him sex. She seems as though she likes Gage more than Stiv, the wildling she was with prior to surrendering her life to Robb. 

Bran wants to know what the gods are saying and Osha claims that they're all sad and says that the gods won't help Robb where he's going because the old gods have no power in the south. Bran feels scared once Osha says this and thinks that if even the gods won't be able to help Robb then what sort of hope is there for him?

Hodor comes back naked and happy from the hot springs, and Osha quickly determines that Hodor must be part giant. Bran tells her that Maester Luwin says giants vanished long ago along with the children of the forest. Osha says if Luwin takes a trip beyond the Wall he'd see that giants do indeed exist and claims to have even had a brother who killed one.

Bran tells Hodor to get dressed and then ask if there really are giants Beyond the Wall. Osha says there are a lot more than giants and starts talking about men who get turned into wights. She mentions that Mance Rayder plans on fighting the White Walkers and thinks that Mance doesn't have a true appreciation of what the Free Folk would be up against once it's time to fight the Others.

Osha tells Bran that she's been trying to tell Robb that he's leading his swords in the wrong direction but Robb just ignores her any time she tries to approach him. Bran says that he'll be able to get Robb to listen so Osha tells him that the real danger is north not south. Bran agrees to give Robb the message.

That evening though Bran doesn't see Robb at dinner because Robb ends up dining in his solar with a few other lords so that they can make their final plans to march.

Bran ends up playing host to the other guests in place of his brother and he has to deal with the usual stares and whispers. He hears one of Rickard's sons say that he'd rather die than have to live the way Bran does.

Bran hates his broken body and whispers to Maester Luwin that he wishes that he could still be a knight. Luwin tells Bran that maesters are said to be 'knights of the mind' and Bran could consider forming a maester's chain over at the Citadel.

Bran says he'd rather learn magic and brings up how the three eyed crow promised that he'd be able fly. Luwin says that there are all sorts of useful things he'd be able to learn at the Citadel but flying isn't one of them. He tells Bran that there isn't any man who will be able to teach him magic. Bran argues that the children of the forest would be able to.

 

Talking of the children of the forest reminds Bran of Osha so he tells Luwin everything she said about the threat of the White Walkers. Luwin thinks that Osha could give Old Nan a run for her money in the storytelling department and says that Robb has too much on his plate at the moment to be bothered by things like giants and dead guys in the woods.

Two days later it's time for Bran and Robb to say goodbye. Robb tells Bran that Bran is the Lord of Winterfell now and Bran thinks to himself that he doesn't know how to be a lord. He's never felt so alone or scared.

 

Robb also asks Bran to watch over Rickon and to listen to Maester Luwin's counsel. Rickon has refused to come down to say goodbye and Bran says it's because Rickon thinks that anybody who leaves ends up never coming back. Robb says that Rickon is almost four so he can't act like a baby forever. He says that their mother should at least be home soon and he promises to bring back their father.

 

As Robb leaves, Theon and the Greatjon are on either side of him. An ominous feeling falls over Bran as he watches them go. 

 

Uncomfortably, he remembered Osha's words. He's marching the wrong way, he thought. For an instant he wanted to gallop after him and shout a warning, but when Robb vanished beneath the portcullis, the moment was gone.

 

Bran can hear cheers for Robb coming outside of the castle walls and thinks to himself that people will never cheer for him that way because of his broken body.

 

Once the men have marched and nearly everyone has gone, Bran looks around at what remains and thinks that Winterfell seems almost dead. He makes eye contact with Hodor who seems scared and lost. Hodor says his own name in the form of a question and Bran repeats Hodor's name and wonders to himself what it means.

[Avaleigh]

Lots to say about this chapter. 

 

I'm kind of in shock that Rickon PUNCHED Old Nan and at three years old he's already apparently strong enough to wield a steel blade. I'll be surprised if he doesn't grow up to be a bloodthirsty little fiend. I'm thinking maybe the cannibals are the ones who need to watch their backs.

 

Robb and Bran never see each other again. Rickon knows too. I wouldn't be surprised if Rickon was called down to the crypts because of a Ned dream or something.

 

Interesting the Robb can already sense that Bolton is more dangerous than a man like Umber.

 

Re: Sansa's letter--Robb doesn't seem like he understands that Sansa was writing the letter under the direction of Cersei or that she's a hostage. He's just pissed that she wants them to pledge their fealty to Joffrey in addition to not having the sense to mention how Arya is. He isn't giving her the benefit of the doubt at all though whereas at least Bran seemed to have some understanding and sympathy for Sansa especially in losing Lady. Bran seems like he put himself in Sansa's shoes for a moment and thought about how he'd feel if he were to lose Summer. Jon did that too for both Sansa and Arya but Robb doesn't seem to have thought about how devastating it was for Sansa (and Arya) to be parted from their wolves. 

 

I don't know how I feel about Maege Mormont offering up one of her daughters like that. Somehow I wouldn't expect Mormont women to necessarily be on board with using a daughter like that to gain favor with their lord.

 

The Karstarks kind of seem like jerks overall. The sons just shit talk Bran right in front of him while they're in his house eating Stark provided food? Plus, we know how the situation with Alys is going to shake out.

 

Robb's getting cheers and applause just for riding out of the gate?   

 

I laughed out loud over Bran's lukewarm prayer for Theon. Again, the show totally misfired by trying to sell the idea that Theon thought of Bran and Rickon as his brothers IMO. Bran seems like he finds Theon to be tolerable at best. 

 

The godswood is completely empty even before a bunch of Northerners are about to march off to war? This I find to be almost unbelievable. We're talking about some twelve thousand people and Luwin makes it seem like most of them are likely worshippers of the old gods. 

 

Another surprising thing to me is that this seems to be the first time that Bran and Luwin have discussed the idea of Bran becoming a maester. I would have thought that idea would have been floated awhile ago. Funny to think that Sam and Bran might have met up that way instead. 

 

Lol, what a trade between Osha and Gage. He gets all the sex that he wants and she's permitted to go and pray from time to time. 

 

It's a small thing but I noticed it--Hodor hating the cold water. It made me think of Ned loving the cold and Dany loving the heat. Not saying it means anything it just jumped out at me. I also took note of Bran wondering about the meaning of Hodor's name since IIRC Hodor isn't actually his name it's just a word that he started saying for some reason. I know there are theories about Hodor and R'hllor and while I don't believe there's a connection there, I do think that there's more to Hodor than meets the eye mainly because of the Old Nan connection and the fact that he's still being kept around over a greenseeing character like Jojen.

 

Edited because it's good to get the names right.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

Good point about the gods wood being empty right before battle. That is weird.

The comments of "I'd rather die than being a cripple" makes me think of how many times people make these "I'd rather die than..." comments in this series. Tyrion reflects on this later about people saying they'd rather die than be a slave and how most people chooses to live when being confronted with the choice.

This happens in real life too. For example people saying to someone who lost their child "oh I would never survive losing my child" I think it's because they don't want to imagine having to live through that. To say they'd rather die is a way to say "it will never happen to me because I'd die instead".

[John Potts]

Yeah, whenever somebody says "I'd rather die..." I tend to think "Oh really?" It's like hearing how people are so convinced that if a tyrant were to come to power, they'd be in The Resistance when in fact, some would collaborate and most people just keep their heads down and conform (though some would resist). And while suicidal depression (and actual suicide) is common in people who suffer from crippling injuries, most people do carry on - our animal instinct to survive is just too strong.

 

The thing that strikes me about this chapter? Robb was scared of Roose Bolton and thinks the tales about him might be true.

 

Avaleigh, I totally agree that the Godswood should be crawling with men. They say "There are no atheists in foxholes" - although that is factually inaccurate, it's certainly the case that when you're going off to war even the most jaded believer will say a quick prayer, because you'll take all the supernatural help you can get.

[benteen]

Avaleigh, I was surprised reading that Rickon punched Old Nan.  He was a wild child although it's not a complete surprise as the kid is neglected and forgotten about by everyone.

 

Was surprised to hear that Maege offered up one of ther daughters like that.  Not necessarily for a marriage but in order to curry favor.  Maybe Stannis was on to something when he said that Maege only named her youngest daughter after Lyanna in order to curry favor with Ned.  I think a Stark/Mormont marriage would have worked out great though.  I've always maintained that Arya would have thrived if she had been fostered on Bear Island with the Mormonts and I think fostering Jon there wouldn't have been a bad idea either.

 

Stupid Karstarks making comments about Bran.  They could at least have the decency to wait until he's out of earshot.  The idea of sympathy for the cripple Bran is to put him out of misery.  And we know where THAT led to in this story.

 

Interesting changes from book to show.  When Robb tells Luwin to "call the banners" the old maester has a sly smile.  In the book, he's very much against the idea of Robb marching to war.  Robb and Bran have a nice, emotional good-bye on the show although in the book, I remember Bran wasn't as "happy" about the whole thing.  I did like the part in the book where they both have an honest conversation about the Greatjon and Bolton.

 

I do enjoy Bran's time as the Stark in Winterfell though.

Edited August 7, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Benteen, I remembered your comment about how Arya would have thrived with the Mormonts and I still agree with it, but I think having that idea in mind is what made me side eye Maege even more here.

Thanks for reminding me about the different reaction from Luwin on the show. Book Luwin's reaction definitely makes more sense but I can see why the show would make that choice.

Re: Robb turning down the opportunity to send someone in his place. I understand why he feels like he needs to go personally but at the same time I think of how he doesn't so even trust Bran to go in to the village on his own and now he's left his seven year old brother to mind the castle. I know Luwin is there but I think people would have understood if he'd stayed behind to personally make sure that his brothers are kept safe. I guess it's because he thinks their mother will be back any moment.

I was more moved by Jon's parting with Robb than Robb's parting with Bran. Not sure why.

Jon's parting with Bran was even more moving for me than the parting with Arya.

Funny that Bran is more or less correct that he'll be taught by the children. I wonder what Luwin would make of Bloodraven and life as a tree for Bran.

Sansa doesn't get a parting from any of her brothers, does she? I wonder if this was a conscious decision on GRRM's part.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

No, Sansa doesn't get a parting from any of her brother and she's the only one who Jon doesn't say good-bye to.  He also didn't say good-bye to Rickon but nobody remembers Rickon.  Well, maybe Jon once...

 

I loved the "Fuck yeah!" smile Luwin gave Robb when he was ordered to call the banners.  I definitely get the different reactions from book to show.  I think the big difference is Rob's age.  Robb is inexperienced in both but on the show he is "a man grown" while in the book he's still 14.  So Luwin's reaction is going to be different. 

 

I think given the Stark nature and the way things are perceived that Robb had to lead his men out.  Catelyn could have sent him home but decides not to lateron.

[SeanC]

Sansa doesn't get a parting from any of her brothers, does she? I wonder if this was a conscious decision on GRRM's part.

I'd say there are a mix of structural and thematic reasons for it. Structurally, Sansa's first POV doesn't occur until after they leave the castle, and GRRM tells the departure from the POV of Jon, who she doesn't have much of a relationship with (I think GRRM may have retroactively softened this in books after the first one, though even then it's not much).

Thematically, you could argue the lack of emphasis on leaving Winterfell and her family may emphasize her being focused on King's Landing. But it may also just be a lack of positive narrative reasons to include such scenes. The parting scenes tend to serve several purposes: to build the characters' likeability (at a time when GRRM's writing of Sansa is more satirical than sympathetic), to emphasize character relationships (Sansa's relationships with her brothers are not important; as yet, anyway), and as a plot impetus for other scenes (Jon's goodbye to Bran exists, at least in part and perhaps in the main, to bring about the scene between him and Catelyn).

Semi-relatedly, I believe that GRRM has said in the past that one of the things he would change if he was doing it all over again is the fact that Catelyn never interacts with either of her daughters.

Edited August 7, 2015 by SeanC

[benteen]

That's true, she doesn't interact with them.  Septa Mordane seems to be the stand-in for Catelyn when dealing with both girls.

 

Jon and Ned have very little interaction too in the books.  Pretty much the only time they're together is in the beginning when they ride out to deal with the deserter.  Even then I think the only time they speak with each other if about the direwolves.  The show was smart to add that good-bye scene between Jon and Ned in the second episode, the "you may not have my name but you have my blood" exchange.

 

Catelyn and Sansa have a little interaction with each other during the first episode  but I don't think Catelyn and Arya do.

[Holmbo]

I think there are pretty good chances that Jon and Sansa ends up together and this is why GRRM wrote them so estranged. So that when they find out they are cousins they will be OK with marrying each other. I don't feel that to be very realistic but I can't help but feel the story is building up to that by having Jon be the only one to actually have all those qualities Sansa values and both of them have very few alternatives to choose from should they survive the story.

[SeanC]

I really don't think so.  It's a fun crack ship, but I don't see any real reason to think it has a canonical prospect.  

[Avaleigh]

I really don't think so.  It's a fun crack ship, but I don't see any real reason to think it has a canonical prospect.

I actually think Jon and Sansa have a decent chance of happening, but I do acknowledge that Jon/Dany is just as likely.

If Sansa is the YMB(Q) then I think Jon is the best bet at being her king. Rickon is likely being kept around to be Lord or King of the North so I don't think Sansa will become a queen in that way.

Faegon not being in the show so far points to him not being the end game. I don't think he and Sansa will cross paths and I can't think who else Sansa could end up marrying to make the prophecy come true. Maybe Tyrion, but that doesn't work as well to me for many reasons.

If Sansa isn't the YMB(Q) I feel like there has still been some potential set up for Jon/Sansa.

Jon is the hero Sansa thinks doesn't exist. The whole thing with her thoughts on Slynt seems very deliberate to me.

I think of GRRM's original plan that Jon would end up with Arya and wonder if this hasn't possibly been switched over to Sansa. I agree that it seems like they might have been kept apart to make the sibling thing less of an issue.

I feel like they're experiencing similar journeys in a way. So far in this book, I think that they both had higher expectations of the place they were going to live only to be disillusioned. They both get upset about how unfair life is and seem to think that they're meant for something better.

When I think of how similar their dreams are for families and children, I feel like I can easily see them being an improved version of Cat and Ned with kids named after Robb, Ned, Bran, Arya, etc.

[Lady S.]

No, Sansa doesn't get a parting from any of her brother and she's the only one who Jon doesn't say good-bye to.  He also didn't say good-bye to Rickon but nobody remembers Rickon.  Well, maybe Jon once...

 

 

She remembers Robb hugging her goodbye with the snowflakes in his hair, Bran was comatose but Cat told Robb she said goodbye to Ned and the girls in his sickroom, Rickon is of course never mentioned but if no one ever had contact with him just because they never thought about it later than his life must have always been lonely. As for Jon, let's remember that the three goodbyes shown weren't the only ones he made, just the important ones. He tells Robb he's been busy all day saying goodbyes to everyone, but at that point he'd only been shown with Bran. I imagine Jon/Sansa could have had a perfunctory, not particularly affectionate farewell if he was making the rounds all over the castle.

 

I think Robb was right not to send someone else in his place, and Luwin probably just didn't want all of this to happen before Catelyn got back, which they all still thought was happening. Robb's 15 by this point, which in-series is a year away from manhood, and from the way Lord Umber pushes him and only respects him when he lays down the law, I think they never would have respected him if he'd chosen to identify as a boy by staying home and sending other men to fight his battles. In their he-man tough northern culture, they'd remember that and he'd probably have to redeem himself later to prove his manlieness to them and establish his authority as their lord. And choosing one of the bannermen to have command over all the others would lead to more squabbling over power among them, and their initial attempts to badger him or win his favor over much less important issues are bad enough. But, really, there's also the fact that none of them expect their time in the South to last so long, and it probably wouldn't have if Joffrey hadn't pulled off his surprise execution.

 

Other thoughts:

• Bran remembering the other wolves howling for Lady makes another really sad image to me.
• What I notice about Maege Mormont's offer is that she says granddaughter, when later we see she has more than one daughter young enough for Robb, while her granddaughter is only 9 as of ADwD (according to the wiki). I don't think GRRM had the Mormont family tree all thought out yet and probably originally thought of Maege as not much younger than Jeor. 
• If Osha knows Mance can't fight the WW and that's why she left, I wonder what she expects Robb and his men to do up there. Just help man the wall?
• I confess to not feeling too sorry about the impending deaths of Karstark's sons after the remarks they made. It's one thing to think like that but saying an 8yo is a coward for killing himself? And while the crippled child is in the room. Is there any male Karstark who isn't a worthless asshole?
• Robb says Rickon can't be a baby forever because he's a Stark and makes a promise he can't keep when he leaves Winterfell. Robb the Lord definitely had the Ned imitation down in that scene.

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys VI

Khal Drogo and Dany have just finished having sex and now Dany is trying to talk her husband into taking the Iron Throne. Drogo though doesn't seem to feel that their son will have any need of an 'iron chair'.

Dany gazes at Drogo and is all dreamy eyed over his appearance. She reminds him that it was prophesied that their son will ride to the ends of the earth. Drogo claims that the earth ends at the black sea and thinks of seawater as "poisoned" water. Dany again tells Drogo about how ships can do this really cool thing where they function so that people and even their horses can travel across the water in order to get where they're going.

Drogo is over the discussion of thrones and ships and tells Dany that he's going hunting. Dany hopes that Drogo is successful with the hunt and thinks she'll have a better chance of talking to him about trying to take the Iron Throne if he comes back on a high from killing the rare, great white lion that is said to live in the plains.

Dany thinks about how Drogo is brave in so many ways but when it comes to the idea of traveling on the water, he is just as fearful as the other Dothraki. She thinks if she could just get him to go on a ship that he'd see it isn't as bad as he probably fears it will be.

Her pregnancy is advancing and Dany is feeling pretty fat and ungainly. She's thankful that she has handmaids to assist her and thinks about how she used to be uncomfortable having them dress her.

Once Dany is dressed she asks Jhiqui to summon Jorah and as soon as the knight is with her, she asks him to help her convince the Khal to help her take back the Seven Kingdoms.

Jorah explains to Dany that Drogo doesn't have any idea of what Westeros has to offer and says that the Khal probably thinks that they're a bunch of small islands. Drogo thinks that there are greater riches in the east and seems more interested in taking his khalasar in that direction.

Jorah cautions Dany to not make the mistake Viserys made by trying to rush the Khal. He promises her that they'll return home one day eventually.

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door . . . was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?

Seeing that his princess is feeling all sad, Jorah asks Dany if she'd like to visit the Western Market. Dany decides it sounds like a fun time and is looking forward to hearing people speak Valyrian again.

Dany opts to travel in a litter since Drogo isn't around to make her feel bad about it. Dothraki women are apparently expected to ride horses up until the final month of pregnancy.

As she's riding in the litter towards the marketplace, Dany starts thinking about how she is the last of the dragons. She thinks that if she didn't have the blood of the dragon that she could be content simply being Drogo's wife, but she ultimately feels that being Khaleesi isn't enough. She thinks to herself that she mustn't forget who she is.

Dany enjoys herself for a bit in the Eastern Market eating and watching various entertainments and attractions.

When she gets to the Western Market, it seems small to Dany in comparison to the bazaars she saw in the Free Cities but it also smells of home to her and she reminisces to Jorah about how she used to love to play at bazaars when she was a little girl. She remembers how she and Viserys wouldn't really have much money to ever spend but occasionally they'd have pocket change to buy sausages or some yummy Tyroshi honeycakes. She asks Jorah if they have these particular cakes in the Seven Kingdoms, but Jorah suddenly seems distracted and says he doesn't know.

Jorah tells Dany that he's going to search for the captain to see if there are any letters for them. When Dany offers to accompany Jorah, he get a little short with her and tells her not to bother.

Dany thinks it's weird that Jorah suddenly doesn't want her to go with him and wonders if it's because he wants to sneak in a visit to a brothel. She shrugs the moment off and is soon getting her handmaids and the others to join her for some sausages.

Dany laughs at the enthusiasm the bloodriders have for the food and Irri tells Dany that it's nice to hear her laugh again since she hasn't done so ever since Viserys received his crown. Dany smiles and thinks that it is indeed nice to be able to laugh again.

Dany is given gifts from some of the merchants and she gives them a medallion from her belt in return. She gets a gift for Doreah and decides that Irri and Jhiqui deserve presents too.

They get to a wine merchant and the merchant says that he has a vintage from Dorne that is so amazing that Dany is going to want to name her baby after him. In Valyrian, Dany tells the merchant that her kid already has a name but she'll try his wine anyway.

The merchant is surprised that Dany speaks Valyrian and asks her if she from Tyrosh. Dany tells him that she's from Westeros and Doreah then announces all of Dany's titles. The merchant instantly falls to his knees and starts addressing Dany as princess.

Dany tells the merchant to rise and says that she still wants to try that amazing Dornish wine. The merchant says that the Dornish blend he was trying to sell her on is crap and what she really needs to try is this dry red from the Arbor. He adds that he'll even give her a cask of it.

Dany feels honored and thinks that Drogo will be especially pleased since he's developed an appreciation for good wine due to the time he spent in the Free Cities.

As Dany asks Aggo to load up the cask of wine to take with them, Jorah has suddenly returned and he orders Aggo to put the cask down. Dany wants to know what's wrong but Jorah doesn't address her. Instead he tells the merchant that he's thirsty and asks the man to pour him some of the wine.

The merchant first tries to tell Jorah that the wine is too good for somebody like him to be permitted to try it. Jorah then threatens to beat the guy with the cask if he doesn't open it, so the merchant feels forced to comply.

Jorah orders the merchant to pour out the wine and the guy tries to stall again saying that it would be a crime to try the wine before it has had some time to breathe. Dany instructs the merchant to do as Jorah says.

The merchant finally pours out the wine and Jorah sniffs at one of the samples. The merchant is all smiles as he tells Jorah how sweet the wine is so Jorah tells the man to drink some. The merchant tries to laugh it off and claims that he isn't worthy of drinking such a fine wine. He's still smiling, but Dany can also see that the guy is starting to sweat.

Dany commands the merchant to drink the wine and says that if he doesn't that she'll have her men force him to drink the entire cask. The merchant sees that he's out of options now, so he makes it seem like he's going to drink for a moment and then ends up throwing he cask at Dany so that he can try to make a run for it.

Jorah rushes into Dany as he's going after the guy and Dany ends up falling to the ground, but Doreah is able to keep her from falling on her belly and hurting herself.

Jhogo's whip takes the merchant down in moments and he's soon being led away to Drogo so that the Khal can decide his punishment.

The captain of the merchants apologizes to Dany for what happened and tells her that she can have all of the merchant's goods.

Dany asks Jorah how he knew the wine was poisoned and Jorah says that he didn't know for sure until the man refused to drink it. He adds that Illyrio's latest letter also gave him cause for concern.

Dany was near tears as they carried her back. The taste in her mouth was one she had known before: fear. For years she had lived in terror of Viserys, afraid of waking the dragon. This was even worse. It was not just for herself that she feared now, but for her baby. He must have sensed her fright, for he moved restlessly inside her. Dany stroked the swell of her belly gently, wishing she could reach him, touch him, soothe him. "You are the blood of the dragon, little one," she whispered as her litter swayed along, curtains drawn tight. "You are the blood of the dragon, and the dragon does not fear."

When they get back to Vaes Dothrak, Dany wants to be alone with Jorah and asks him if this latest attack was from the Usurper Robert Baratheon. Jorah confirms that the hit was ordered by Robert and says that a lordship will be awarded to he person who kills either her or Viserys.

Dany is both sobbing and laughing as she tells Jorah that the Usurper has no idea that he owes Drogo a lordship.

Dany thinks that the Usurper has woken the dragon in her and thinks that there's no way she's going to let him take her baby. She suddenly orders Jorah to light the brazier.

She claims to be cold but both she and Jorah know that it's too hot for a fire, and she wonders if she is being seized by some kind of madness.

Once Jorah gets the fire going she sends him away and feels she must be alone. She wonders again if what she is about to do is madness.

Dany decides to push the eggs down into the coals even though she isn't sure if this will wreck them or not. She watches the brazier until the coals turn to ash, but the eggs stay the same and are undamaged.

Dany thinks about how Jorah said that Rhaegar was the last dragon and she seems sad that nothing happened with the eggs. She isn't even sure what she was expecting to happen exactly but she seems disappointed.

Drogo was successful with the hunt and tells Dany that he's going to make her a cloak of the white lion's skin.

Dany tells Drogo what happened at the marketplace and Jorah tells the Khal that this won't be the last attempt on Dany's life. Drogo is quiet for awhile as he's taking all of this in.

Jhogo and Jorah are both rewarded for their part in saving Dany's life and are allowed to choose any horse they like from Drogo's herd save for Dany's silver and the Khal's own mount.

For his unborn son, Drogo has decided that he is going to give him the Iron Throne and take the Seven Kingdoms.

The khalasar leave Vaes Dothrak two days later and the wine merchant's punishment is that he's forced to run naked while he's tied to Dany's horse. No harm will come to the merchant's body so long as he can keep pace with the horses.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I haven't got that much for this chapter.

Drogo was successful in going after the hrakkar and this mmade me think of Robert being unsuccessful in trying to capture the white hart.

Dany's googoo eyes at Drogo were kind of nauseating for me. Sorry, not a big Drogo fan especially after the speech about how how wants to rape and destroy every bit of Westeros. I was kind of amused at Jorah's guess that the Seven Kingdoms to Drogo are probably seven small and rocky islands that aren't worth taking wooden horses to visit. It made me wonder if he'd heard about the Iron Islands from someone and was under the impression that the Iron Islands were all of Westeros.

I still haven't seen a good time for Jorah to confess.

I did like Dany sort of being able to laugh at the fact that Robert technically owes Drogo a lordship.

Did Jorah get the news that Robert has died? Or was that his pardon? Or maybe it was something else altogether?

[Holmbo]

I'm thinking it must have been either his pardon or a warning from Varys about the poisoning. I don't remember if it was ever stated.

[Lady S.]

I'm thinking it must have been either his pardon or a warning from Varys about the poisoning. I don't remember if it was ever stated.

I think he said Varys warned him when he was confronted about being a spy, didn't he? In the books, I don't think it's ever said that he got his pardon.

 

The thing I used to wonder about with Dany/Drogo was why he wanted her in the first place if he never had any real ambition to invade Westeros. But maybe the last Targ princess was valuable to him because the Valyrians conquered Essos first. Maybe he always aspired to beget the Stallion Who Mounts the World and figured the blood of Old Valyria would be the right match for that. There must be a reason he married outside his own culture, and from their distant early days I doubt it had much to do with Dany personally.

 

 

I still haven't seen a good time for Jorah to confess.

 

Well, he is still actively spying on her, the wiki says his last report was sent from Qarth. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn VIII 

 

Catelyn is with her uncle and the two Manderly brothers as they're approaching Moat Cailin. She's feeling relieved that they've arrived in time and thinks to herself that it isn't too late.

 

The Manderlys are escorting Catelyn under the instructions of their father Lord Wyman who stayed behind at White Harbor. Lord Wyman Manderly is too fat to sit on a horse these days and he mentions to Cat that if he'd known there'd be war again in his lifetime then he probably wouldn't have eaten quite so much. The Manderly sons are both nearly as fat as their father and of the youngest, Cat thinks that he'd be the fattest dude she's ever seen in person if she hadn't already seen his brother and father. She thinks the men are nice enough though and is grateful to them for getting her safely to Robb.

 

Thinking of Robb, Catelyn still can't quite believe that he's leading a host to war. She's afraid for her son but she also feels a kind of pride and wonders to herself if Robb is still a boy or a man grown.

 

Moat Cailin is a super old stronghold that dates back thousands of years. Supposedly there used to be twenty towers and now there are only three. Of the massive wall that used to surround the castle, only a few great blocks of basalt remain to mark it. Even though the castle appears to be in rough shape, it's still a pretty safe place to be because it's so difficult to attack from the south unless the would-be attackers somehow managed to get assistance from House Reed.

 

Brynden Tully seems surprised when he first glimpses Moat Cailin and Catelyn sees that he thinks it looks like a kind of death trap.

 

"I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. The three surviving towers command the causeway from all sides, and any enemy must pass between them. The bogs here are impenetrable, full of quicksands and suckholes and teeming with snakes. To assault any of the towers, an army would need to wade through waist-deep black muck, cross a moat full of lizard-lions, and scale walls slimy with moss, all the while exposing themselves to fire from archers in the other towers." She gave her uncle a grim smile. "And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood."

Brynden jokes that since he's a southron man that maybe he shouldn't linger too long here.

 

The Gatehouse Tower is where Robb has made his seat and this is where Catelyn goes to visit with her son. 

 

Inside of the tower Robb is surrounded by his bannermen and is deep in conversation with Roose Bolton and the Greatjon. At first Robb doesn't notice his mother's arrival, but Grey Wind does and immediately makes eye contact with Catelyn. The men stop talking and Robb finally notices that his mother is there.

 

Cat has to keep herself from running to Robb so that she can hug him and kiss him and baby him, but she knows she can't embarrass him in front of his men so she contents herself with complimenting Robb's new beard; she says it makes Robb look like her brother Edmure.

 

A bunch of the men go to Catelyn to kneel and pay their respects including Theon Greyjoy. Theon mentions that he's surprised to see her and Catelyn admits that she didn't initially plan on going and only did so once she'd learned at White Harbor that Robb had called the banners. 

 

Catelyn mentions that Brynden is now in her service and Robb thanks Brynden for joining their cause. Robb then asks about Ser Rodrik and Catelyn says that she sent him on to Winterfell to act as castellan and hold Winterfell until they all come home.

 

The Greatjon confidently tells Catelyn that they'll deal with Tywin Lannister and then they'll go on to deal with freeing Ned from King's Landing. 

 

Roose Bolton speaks and Catelyn briefly thinks about how strange and creepy his appearance is. She describes his eyes as being almost colorless and flat out thinks that his looks are disturbing.  

 

Roose wants to know where Catelyn's hostage Tyrion is so Catelyn has this awkward 'yeah, about that...' moment where she has to admit that she no longer has him and that her idiotic sister is to blame along with the gods.

 

Catelyn thinks back to how unpleasant her parting was with Lysa. Apparently,  Catelyn dared to suggest that Little Robert would be better off being fostered at Winterfell for a few years so that he can be around other boys and learn to man up. Lysa gets extra hostile on her sister after this suggestion and swears to Catelyn that she'll have her put through the Moon Door if she tries to take her son away from her.

 

The men are all grumbling when they hear that Tyrion is no longer a hostage and want to question Catelyn further about what the hell happened there, but Catelyn says they can talk about it all later and then asks to speak with her son alone.

 

The men begin to leave but Theon tries to linger, so Catelyn is forced to tell him that talking to Robb alone means that Theon will have to leave too. Theon smiles at her as he leaves.

 

Catelyn asks Robb if he can understand why she fears to see her fifteen year old son leading men into battle, but Robb protests that there was no one else and so there's really nothing to be done.

 

Catelyn calls Robb out for the fact that there were many others that he might have chosen to lead in his place but Robb counters that not one of her suggestions is a Stark.

 

Catelyn points out that there are many seasoned bannermen that Robb could have chosen from and adds that Robb was training with a wooden sword less than a year ago.

 

For a moment Robb seems angry but then his youth comes rushing back and he asks his mother if she's going to send him back to Winterfell. Catelyn wants to send him back but acknowledges that he's come too far for it to not be a humiliating incident that the bannermen would end up laughing over for years to come if their liege lord ended up getting ordered home from battle by his mother.

 

Robb thanks her for understanding and when Catelyn reaches out to touch his hair, he suddenly feels uncomfortable and walks over to the hearth so that he can be near Grey Wind.

 

Robb asks his mother if she knows everything that has happened with Ned and she confirms that she's heard all about it. She asks Robb if he's had word of Arya and Sansa and Robb gives Catelyn Sansa's letter to read, explaining that he didn't think to bring the one that Sansa wrote specifically for Catelyn. 

 

Once Catelyn has read the letter, she quickly determines that Cersei was behind its composition and instantly understands that Sansa is now a Lannister hostage. She doesn't want to think about what the omission of Arya could imply.

 

Robb admits that he'd hoped they'd be able to trade Tyrion in a hostage exchange and asks if Lysa is going to send men from the Vale to help. Catelyn lets Robb know that they definitely won't be getting any men from the Vale aside from the Blackfish who isn't technically from there anyway.

 

Robb seems anxious and is a little tearful and wonders if he's doing the right thing by having eighteen thousand men march.

 

Catelyn wants to know what Robb is specifically afraid of and Robb admits that he fears the Lannisters will kill Ned and Sansa both even if they do defeat the Lannisters in battle.

 

Catelyn tells Robb that they have no choice and that they have to win or die trying. She says that Robb should remember the fate of Rhaegar's children just in case he has any doubts about the intentions of House Lannister. 

 

Robb swears that he won't lose.

Catelyn asks about the situation in the Riverlands and learns that the Lannisters are definitely in war mode with Jaime having won a battle against men of Edmure's some two weeks ago.

 

Tywin is leading a host that is even larger than Jaime's and Robb guesses that Ned must have known this and tells Catelyn about how a man named Lord Eric or possibly Deric was sent by Ned to lead a group of men to deal with Gregor Clegane. It seems that the men were ambushed even though they were riding beneath the King's banners, and Ser Raymun Darry turns out to have been among those killed. Robb hears that this Lord Deric and a few others may have managed to escape.

 

The news is even worse than Catelyn thought it would be. She asks if Robb means to fight Tywin at Moat Cailin. Robb and his men doubt that Tywin would try to attack them at Moat Cailin and guess that Tywin plans on taking the Riverlands piece by piece until Riverrun stands alone. Robb determines that they'll have to march south in order to meet with Tywin.

 

Catelyn feels nervous at the idea of her fifteen year old son going up against seasoned battle commanders like Tywin and Jaime and wonders aloud if it's wise of Robb to march. 

 

Robb says that their food and supplies are already dwindling and Moat Cailin isn't a place where it is exactly easy to live off of the land. Now that the Manderlys have joined the party Robb and his lords think it's time to get marching.

 

Catelyn briefly wonders how well Robb really knows his men and thinks that she's got to know most of them fairly well over the years.

 

Catelyn is concerned about Robb's overall hesitation and tells him that he can't afford to be indecisive around men like Roose Bolton. She tells him that he needs to make a decision and command, and if he can't manage to do that then he should probably go back to Winterfell. 

 

Robb goes over the pros and cons of striking at either Tywin or Jaime and then shares his own thoughts on what strategy he thinks might work best.

 

"I'd leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway," he said, "but once we're below the Neck, I'd split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun." Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

 

Catelyn isn't sure how wise it is for Robb to put a river between two parts of his army, but Robb points out that this strategy would also put a river between Tywin and Jaime. 

 

The only way to cross the river will be to go through the Twins which would mean going through Lord Frey, a man who just happens to be one of Catelyn's father's bannermen. Catelyn tells Robb that Lord Frey is untrustworthy and Robb promises that he won't ever trust him.

 

Robb wants to know what his mother thinks of his plan and she wants to know which part of the army he plans on leading. Naturally, Robb goes for the most dangerous of the two and says he'll lead the men on horses. The Greatjon will take command of the others.

 

Catelyn thinks Robb is screwing up by giving the Greatjon the honor to command, but doesn't want to damage Robb's confidence in this moment especially after she's just told him to start making some firm decisions.  

 

Catelyn says that a cold and cunning sort of man is who would best deal with Tywin Lannister, and Robb quickly sees that Roose would be a better choice. He admits to his mother that Roose scares him. Catelyn says that she hopes Roose will have the power to scare Tywin as well.

 

Robb says he'll give the commands to his men and then tells Catelyn that he's going to arrange an escort to take her back to Winterfell.

Catelyn starts tearing up and tells Robb that she isn't going to Winterfell. She wants to visit her father at Riverrun since he may be dying, and she thinks that she should be with her brother since he's currently surrounded by enemies. 

 

[SeanC]

The Blackfish talking about seeing Moat Cailin reminded me that I've always found it odd that none of the Tullys ever seem to have visited Winterfell.

[Avaleigh]

My favorite thing about this chapter are all of the Roose Bolton references. Out of all of the lords in the North, it's Roose Bolton that Catelyn thinks could give Tywin cause for concern. Robb admits for the second time to a member of his family that he's scared of him. His odd looking appearance is commented on too.

More Stark tears.

I really like the description of Moat Cailin. Is it older than the Wall?

Catelyn thinks Lysa is the only person who screwed up the Tyrion situation. Not exactly accurate.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[DigitalCount]

I love how Roose Bolton is such a freaking vampire. I'd forgotten that he was a real presence even from this early in the story, and that nearly every time that he's appeared or been mentioned, someone has to say or think that they're on the verge of soiling themselves.

[Avaleigh]

It makes me wish we'd had an early moment of smiling Theon being cheeky with him just to see how he'd respond. I'm imagining a Tywin style stare down. Something along those lines. Whatever it was, Theon/Reek knows that he must've been out of his damned mind to get cute on a man like Roose 'Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother' Bolton, because even after he's been Reekified, he still remembers Roose from this early period and thinks that Roose is scarier than Ramsay. It'd be nice to see a moment where Roose says something to unsettle Robb just to get a better idea of where his fear of the man comes from.

I feel like most of the time Robb would rather bite off his own tongue than admit to being afraid of something in particular but, with Roose he's not at all ashamed to admit that this guy is a scary mofo. Just what has Roose been saying in these war council meetings?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

I love how Roose Bolton is such a freaking vampire. I'd forgotten that he was a real presence even from this early in the story, and that nearly every time that he's appeared or been mentioned, someone has to say or think that they're on the verge of soiling themselves.

Roose is a vampire/half Other is my favorite of all the crackpot theories. I bet at the end if the story only Ramsay will be left and it will seem like he killed Roose but really it will actually be Roose wearing Ramsay's skin. That's why he has to leech himself all the time. To keep the skin sticking.

[John Potts]

I've heard that theory before. but I really hope that it isn't true. It's just so... goofy. Almost like a dark version of Scooby Doo "And I'd've got away with it if it wasn't for those damn Targaryens!"

Edited August 10, 2015 by John Potts

[Avaleigh]

I don't want Roose to take over Ramsay's body but I do like the idea of him being super old. I'd be fine with him having something to do with the Night's King too.

[nodorothyparker]

Roose is one of my consistent favorites of all the baddies and I like how the stage for him is already being set here.  He's creepy and scary as hell and he's already questioning the dumbassery that led to capturing and subsequently losing Tyrion, which is nice foreshadowing.

 

Robb just comes off as so painfully young and naive promising not to lose.

[benteen]

The Blackfish talking about seeing Moat Cailin reminded me that I've always found it odd that none of the Tullys ever seem to have visited Winterfell.

I guess the distances and their various duties prohibited this kind of travel.  Though Edmure could have visited Catelyn at some point when Hoster was still lucid.  Catelyn does mention seeing her sister five years early so Lysa must have visited.

 

It's kind of hilarious that Catelyn is blaming Lysa for Tyrion's escape when she's the one who went to the Vale in the first place.

 

Roose certainly makes an impression.

 

Catelyn was definitely wrong about Robb making a mistake about giving the Greatjon the command of the other army.

 

 

Catelyn tells Robb that Lord Frey is untrustworthy and Robb promises that he won't ever trust him.

 

Oh, Robb...if you had just remembered that!

[Avaleigh]

Roose is one of my consistent favorites of all the baddies and I like how the stage for him is already being set here. He's creepy and scary as hell and he's already questioning the dumbassery that led to capturing and subsequently losing Tyrion, which is nice foreshadowing.

Robb just comes off as so painfully young and naive promising not to lose.

I love Roose asking Catelyn about what happened. I think he's probably already wondering if he's hitched to the losing wagon through no fault of his own.

What happened at the Vale--that was a 'you had to be there' type of moment where Roose would have been just as powerless as Catelyn if he'd accompanied her the way Ser Rodrik did. He's just thinking that they're incompetent IMO without appreciating that these are extraordinary circumstances indeed.

Another thing I couldn't help but picture here was Catelyn thinking 'Lysa is the Tully daughter with idiot's blood, not me!' ;-)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SeanC]

It's kind of hilarious that Catelyn is blaming Lysa for Tyrion's escape when she's the one who went to the Vale in the first place.

Catelyn was definitely wrong about Robb making a mistake about giving the Greatjon the command of the other army.

Catelyn's action in taking Tyrion to an ultra-secure mountain fortress was quite sensible.  Lysa is indeed wholly responsible for Tyrion's escape, by putting him on trial instead of doing what Catelyn wanted and holding him hostage.

 

Regarding the command issue, I don't know that she was wrong about the Greatjon not being suited for the top command, based on personality.  Whether Roose was the best man available in the alternative is another issue, but nobody else has a problem with it (it has been, what, a millennium since the Boltons caused trouble for the Starks?) and Roose has apparently been a loyal Stark bannermen through multiple wars.

[John Potts]

In some respects, Roose IS the best choice as Robb's deputy - you do want underlings who are prepared to put other viewpoints. Roose is clearly more of a strategist than Robb is (he's brave and great at leading his troops, but he's not so great at seeing the "Big Picture"). An the Boltons have been loyal lieutenants for ages, so it's not like Robb was necessarily stupid to trust him.

[WearyTraveler]

I thought the book made a point to show that Robb was, in fact, a good military strategist.  The plan to split the army was his alone, and, as it turned out, it was a brilliant move that put him on top of Tywin, and allowed him to free Edmure and take Jamie prisoner.  At the time the chapter takes place, his advisors were all advocating for one of the other two choices: march down the King's Road and face Tywin's army heads on with all his strength or head towards Riverrun to free Edmure and take the Riverlands.  Robb's strategy, while sarificing part of his army (which everyone going down into it knew would be the case) allowed him to fool both Tywin and Jamie, thus making him the victor of that particular stage in the war.

 

His mistakes were not strategic but those made because of his youth (sleeping with Jeyne - I get the feeling that even though it's not specified in the books, he was a virgin)

Edited August 11, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

Yeah, Robb is a great strategist. He beats Tywin in the field against the odds repeatedly; he loses through things he he had no control over and some errors in who to trust.

[John Potts]

SeanC He beats Tywin in the field against the odds repeatedly; he loses through things he he had no control over.

 

 

I hear this a lot, but it always strikes me like people (well, French people!) who say that Napoleon was the better general at Waterloo: the fact is, he lost. Warfare is one of those fields where there are no prizes for second place. And it's not like Tywin had it all his own way: he had to deal with Stannis and the Tyrells: Tywin was MUCH better at the "Winning friends and influencing people" part of running the war (co-opting the Tyrells to his side while Robb was losing the Freys and the Karstarks). Even tactically, he realised that adopting Fabian tactics against Robb would cause Robb more difficulties than it would his side - winning battles isn't all there is to warfare.

[WearyTraveler]

I hear this a lot, but it always strikes me like people (well, French people!) who say that Napoleon was the better general at Waterloo: the fact is, he lost. Warfare is one of those fields where there are no prizes for second place. And it's not like Tywin had it all his own way: he had to deal with Stannis and the Tyrells: Tywin was MUCH better at the "Winning friends and influencing people" part of running the war (co-opting the Tyrells to his side while Robb was losing the Freys and the Karstarks). Even tactically, he realised that adopting Fabian tactics against Robb would cause Robb more difficulties than it would his side - winning battles isn't all there is to warfare.

 

I think it's complicated.

 

Robb never lost a battle, and up until

the Red Wedding

, he was winning the war, which prompted Tywin to plot the unthinkable: what is, to my view,

a smaller version of genocide (i.e. The Red Wedding).

 

The Karstarks were being stupid.  Even according to Westerosi warfare.  Everyone knew and said you don't just kill as important a hostage as Jamie Lannister, yet Robb had to place special guards and protocols around Jamie because all the Karstarks wanted was his head on a spike.  They were not looking at the big picture.  Having an alive Jamie in their possession was key to keeping Tywin in line.  Everyone else knew it, but the Karstarks wanted the immediate gratification of vengeance instead of thinking about the long game to a sustainable victory.

 

Now once

Catelyn freed Jamie, the Karstarks went berserk, and rightly so, as they were denied their vengeance and the whole strategic value of having Jamie hostage was lost

.  But that's on Catelyn, not on Robb.

 

Then we have people that swore allegiance to him doing other stupid things, like

Edmure and the windmill

, which caused quite a lot of aggravation for Robb.  But even then he was careful not to diminish

Edmure

publicly for his mistake.

 

As for the

Freys

, Robb lost them because

Walder Sr.

is an ambitious, bitter old man.  Easily offended.  Granted, Robb's single moment of weakness of

sleeping with Jeyne, made him break his contract with Frey

.  But that was him being a 15 year old boy for the first time since he turned 15 in the series.  And then he was caught between a rock and a hard place: 

break his word to Frey or be forever known as the scum who slept with a noble girl and then dumped her.

  Either way his honor is dinged.  He chose what he thought was the lesser of two evils, honor-wise: 

To do right by the teenager he had deflowered,

thinking that he could make it up to

Frey

somehow.

 

The deal offered to

Frey

after that was incredibly generous, and he got the freaking King in the North to

humble himself and basically grovel in front of gods and men

.  But

Walder

still wanted more; he wanted

revenge for the broken promise and for what he perceived to be a major slight,

when, in Westerosi culture,

breaking an engagement

is certainly not unheard off.  It happened frequently enough.  Even Ned, when he decided to ship Arya and Sansa back to Winterfell, reasoned that

Sansa and Joffrey's engagement could be broken without too much consequence.  And this engagement is actually broken later on by the Council, so that Joffrey can marry Margaery.

 

Meanwhile Tywin

won this war

and he got the support of

the Freys, the Boltons, and the Tyrells

, but, as we will see later on, this

victory wasn't sustainable

because more than an amazing strategist, Tywin is cruel and rules through fear, not respect. 

The Freys are renown for hitching their wagon to the winning engine, whatever the circumstance, so, their "loyalty" is questionable, at best.  The Boltons also go on to rule the North through fear and intimidation, and we know that there's a whole resistance / rebellion movement going, under the "North remembers" slogan.

 

Finally, the Tyrells supported Tywin only after Renly died, which was an act Tywin had nothing to do with (he had Stannis to thank for that one), but even if they did, they were still

plotting to grab power for themselves as the Purple Wedding and other events will prove later on

 

I feel Tywin was able to get support because people feared him, not because he had the better strategy.  They were afraid of him with cause, to be sure, given the history we know of Tywin when he's displeased: the Raynes, his father's lover, the murder of Ellia and her children, the total and ruthless destruction of the Riverlands... and those are only the facts widely known (let's not mention his cruelty toward his own family, which eventually ended in

Tywin being murdered by his own son

).  But power, and winning, through fear is not sustainable in the long run.

 

Looking at where House Lannister and their supporters stand in the last book:

 

• • Tywin is dead
  • Joffrey is dead
  • Tyrion is in the middle of a war zone, in the process of erupting, in Essos
  • Jamie is headed to imprisonment, or worse, at the hands of Lady Stoneheart
  • Cersei has just walked the streets of King's Landing naked and in shame; she has lost all her power and is awaiting a trial by combat
  • Kevan is dead
  • Myrcella is disfigured and in the hands of the Martells, who are actively plotting to take revenge for Ellia and put a Targ back on the throne.
  • Tommen is with his kittens, I guess, but he's now a rudderless ship, surrounded by enemies
  • Lancel is wasting away through fasting, while his lands are in peril
  • Frey pie / Frey hangings
  • Genna got her castle, but the Riverlands are on fire with guerilla warfare, and the Brotherhood is getting stronger under LS' leadership
  • The Boltons are facing a full on rebellion and are stuck in Winterfell because of the snow

 

I think many of these situations can be directly tied to Tywin's decisions and behavior early on. So, I don't think he was a brilliant strategist at all.

 

*Edited because I remembered that our spoiler policy for this thread states that anything that happens after Book 1 is considered a spoiler.

Edited August 11, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[John Potts]

WearyTraveller Robb never lost a battle

 

 

To quote Robb himself (at least in show)

"I've won every battle but I'm losing this war". You don't get credit for "doing better than expected" but still losing. Yes, Walder Frey is a treacherous bastard, but if you need him then you don't betray a marriage agreement, you do the other dishonourable thing and say "Sorry Jeyne - sucks to be you!"* (or more honourably, find one of your Bannermen who doesn't mind taking your sloppy seconds to marry her). And Tywin had his "surrounded by idiots" problems too - one of his underlings sent orders to his enemies (again, that may be show only). And looking at "The Big Picture", sure things look precarious for House Lannister, but it's still a Lannister on the throne, while the Starks are dead or scattered and the Tullys aren't doing much better. So Tywin's hopes of a 10000 year Reich might look doubtful but they look better than the Starks do (without an authorial saving throw, at any rate).

 

*

Of course, it's possible that Walder would still betray Robb even if he had kept his word, but we'll never know.

Edited August 11, 2015 by John Potts

[WearyTraveler]

Well, in terms of who is a better strategist between Tywin and Robb, the way I look at it is this:

 

While neither house looks like a clear winner at the end of the lst book, the Lannisters have NO support from anybody, except perhaps Qyburn and he's only one man. But the Starks still have every family in the North, except the Boltons and the Karstarks (and that might be changing now that the Karstark lady heir married a wildling), showing loyalty to them and plotting to put a Stark back in Winterfell.

To me, that says something about whose strategy had better fruits in the long run.

 

But, to each her/his own.

Edited August 11, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

I hear this a lot, but it always strikes me like people (well, French people!) who say that Napoleon was the better general at Waterloo: the fact is, he lost. Warfare is one of those fields where there are no prizes for second place. And it's not like Tywin had it all his own way: he had to deal with Stannis and the Tyrells: Tywin was MUCH better at the "Winning friends and influencing people" part of running the war (co-opting the Tyrells to his side while Robb was losing the Freys and the Karstarks). Even tactically, he realised that adopting Fabian tactics against Robb would cause Robb more difficulties than it would his side - winning battles isn't all there is to warfare.

Tywin had nothing to do with co-opting the Tyrells.

Regardless, Tywin won for two reasons: Mel killed Renly, and Littlefinger kept the Vale out of the war. Tywin had nothing to do with either of those things, and if either hadn't happened, he would have lost hard. On his own terms he had lost better than 60% of his army by the time of the Blackwater and was in the process of falling into Robb's trap.

Edited August 11, 2015 by SeanC

[John Potts]

Perhaps instead of talking about how (Spoiler) and (Spoiler) screwed up by doing (Spoiler), perhaps we should take this to another thread?

[WearyTraveler]

I've said my piece and agreed to disagree (see my comment above: "to each her/his own").  So, as far as I'm concerned, we can stop the (Spoiler) discussion here and move on with the book.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VII

Tyrion and about three hundred men of the mountain clans are approaching a Lannister army camp of roughly twenty thousand men. Tyrion isn't sure if it's his brother or father who is leading these men and tells Bronn that they'll find out soon enough.

Four different mountain clans are already with Tyrion and it seems that Gunthor son of Gurn is getting more people from the other clans to join them. Tyrion wonders what his father will make of the clansmen with all of their animal skins and stolen weapons. He also isn't sure if he's leading these people or if he's still a captive of theirs.

When Tyrion suggests that it might be better if he goes down to the camp alone, Ulf of the Moon Brothers says that he thinks that would only be better for Tyrion.

Shagga son of Dolf also senses that Tyrion might be trying to fuck them over and insists on accompanying Tyrion into the camp. He adds that he'll castrate Tyrion if Tyrion lies, and refers to him as the 'boyman'.

Tyrion has clearly heard this threat from Shagga before and seems more bored than concerned.

Chella daughter of Cheyk tells Tyrion that the mountain clans have no reason to trust in him as they've been lied to by lords from the lowlands in the past. Tyrion comments about how he thought that he and Chella were better friends than that but concedes that she'll be able to come with him. He ultimately chooses a representative of each of the clans to come and as they're leaving he tells the others not to kill each other while they're gone.

As he's riding, Tyrion thinks about what a pain in the ass it is to deal with the clans because they feel everyone deserves to be heard, so discussions can end up taking ages. He marvels about the fact that even their women are allowed to speak. He thinks this explains part of the reason why the clans aren't that much of a threat to the Vale beyond the occasional raid. Tyrion vows to himself that he is going to change this.

Bronn is heading down to the camp as well.

Tyrion thinks about the different clans and thinks about how even other mountain clans are disturbed by the culture of the Burned Men, and how it seems that Burned Men are expecting to mutilate their bodies in some way once they come of age. Timmet son of Timmet actually burned out his own eye to show the other Burned Men what a badass he is and apparently it worked because he was immediately made a war chief of the clan after doing this. Tyrion jokes with Bronn by wondering what body part a king of the Burned Men would have to burn off. They both know better than to tease Timmett though and can only wonder what a man like that would do to his enemies.

When they get to the camp, a captain recognizes who Tyrion is and immediately provides him with an escort. As they ride through the camp, Tyrion can tell that there has been fighting there recently even though the dead bodies are no longer in evidence.

As they get closer to the heart of the camp, they are met by Ser Flement Brax who kind of side eyes Tyrion's companions but doesn't question Tyrion too much when Tyrion explains that they're his retainers. Ser Flement informs Tyrion that Tywin has taken over the inn at the crossroads for his quarters and Tyrion is pleased to hear this; he thinks that maybe the gods are being just after all.

Certain people call out to Tyrion as they ride through and there are a lot of others who are staring at the clansmen with wide eyes and dropped jaws.

Shagga is staring too and it's because he's never seen so many signs of wealth and power in his life before. Tyrion is glad to see that the clansmen are impressed and hopes that this will make them easier to command.

Outside of the inn, Tyrion sees the rotting corpse of the innkeeper and sighs as he tells it that all he'd asked for was a room, food, and something to drink.

When the stableboys come out to see to the group's horses, Shagga seems to think that the boys are there to rob him and doesn't want to get off of his horse. Tyrion explains the duties of a stableboy and when Shagga finally agrees to get off of his horse he roars at the kid to remember that the mare is his.

Once inside, Tyrion orders food and drink for his men and then goes to the inn's common room to see his father.

Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his side-whiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw. His eyes were a pale green, flecked with gold. A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock.

Tyrion's uncle Kevan is there as well and it is Kevan who greets Tyrion first. He's surprised to see him but his greeting is warm. Tywin on the other hand, stares at Tyrion for a moment and then tells him that he guesses this means the rumors about Tyrion's death were untrue.

Tyrion replies that he's sorry to have disappointed him by still being alive and tells his father that it was nice of him to go to war for him. As Tyrion walks over to take a seat, he's acutely aware of his physical deformities and seems to hate having his father watch him waddle around.

Tywin tells Tyrion that Jaime would never have just stood by and allowed himself to become the prisoner of some woman. Tyrion doesn't know what Tywin was expecting of him and points out the obvious, that Jaime is taller and stuff.

Tywin insists that the honor of their house was at stake and was consequently forced into responding. Tyrion recites the family words and mentions that two of his men were killed. Tywin doesn't so much as blink at hearing about the deaths of two Lannister men and guesses that Tyrion will want some more men. Tyrion tells his father that he already has a few men of his own.

After asking about the progress of the war, Tyrion learns that his brother Jaime is making their father all kinds of proud by covering himself in glory on the field. Tywin says that Jaime kicked ass over at the Golden Tooth and he's even captured Edmure Tully.

Raventree Hall has fallen as well and House Whent has yielded Harrenhal. The Mallisters and the Freys are the main holdouts and Tywin doesn't think that the Mallisters have the numbers to be a serious threat. He also thinks that Frey won't act until he's certain who the winner will be. Tywin is feeling pretty confident that their side will win unless Houses Stark and Arryn team up together.

Tyrion informs Tywin that the Arryns aren't going to be a problem but House Stark is a different situation entirely because of the whole issue with Ned. Tywin doesn't think Ned will be a problem as long as he's kept in his cell. He declares that Robb is just a child and doubts that Robb will be able to stomach the realities of war.

Tyrion reflects on how interesting things have become in the time that he's been away and wonders how it is that Cersei could possibly have talked Robert into throwing Ned in cell under the Red Keep. Tywin informs Tyrion that Robert is dead and Tyrion thinks about how different things will be in the realm now that Cersei is essentially ruling through Joffrey.

Tywin says that If Tyrion is up for being useful then he'd like Tyrion to help deal with Lord Beric, Thoros of Myr, and the other outlaws. Tyrion thanks his father for the lowly opportunity but says that he's kind of busy, and then starts saying that he'll need battle equipment for about three thousand men.

As Tyrion is talking about getting armor and everything, Shagga suddenly bursts in and throws the Captain of the Guard across the room. The other clansmen go into the room in addition to Bronn who gives Tyrion a shrug at the clansmen intruding on the meeting.

Tywin coldly asks them who they are and Tyrion explains that the clansmen basically followed him home and cheekily asks if he can keep the men.

Ser Kevan asks the "savages" what the hell they're doing intruding on a war council meeting and one of the clansmen replies that they are free men, not savages, and free men are permitted to sit on war councils.

The teenaged Timmett comments that Tywin and Kevan are both "old" and this almost makes Kevan go for his sword, but Tywin ends up staying his hand. Tywin asks Tyrion where his manners are and asks him to introduce them to the clansmen.

Tyrion makes the introductions and then Tywin takes the opportunity to flatter the clansmen and tell them that even in the Westerlands it is known how strong and tough the Mountain clans are. Tywin asks the clansmen what brings them down from the mountains, and they tell him they want steel, silk, and horses.

Tyrion is about to bring up how he wants to burn the Vale to the ground, but they end up being interrupted again, this time by a messenger who says that the Stark host is on the march down the causeway.

Tywin is happy and thinks this is excellent news.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not smile. Lord Tywin never smiled, but Tyrion had learned to read his father's pleasure all the same, and it was there on his face. "So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions," he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. "Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south."

Kevan thinks their current position is strong but Tywin wants to march on Robb now in order to break him so that he can focus his attention on dealing with Stannis.

Tywin has word sent to Jaime that he's going to march on Robb.

Tyrion is kind of in awe at watching Tywin take control.

Tywin turns his attention to the clansmen and tells them that he hears they are warriors without fear. The clansmen confirm that this is true so Tywin says that it they ride with him then they'll have everything that Tyrion promised them.

Ulf wonders why they need Tywin's promise when they already have Tyrion's but Tywin again flatters the clansmen by saying that even his knights fear facing some of these northern men.

Timmett immediately takes the bait and says the Burned Men don't fear anything and are ready to 'ride with the lions.' Not wanting to be out done, Conn of the Stone Crows says that they're in too, and the others soon follow.

Chella is in too but adds that Tyrion will have to ride with them in order to ensure that they get everything they've been promised.

Tywin looks at Tyrion once this is said and when Tywin doesn't say anything in protest to Chella's demand, Tyrion sees that he's going to have to rise with the clansmen.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Avaleigh