S03.E06: Born Again

[max1m1976]

 I like this show but  don't you think Elizabeth and Philip somehow too easy cheating FBI agents?I am russian and i remember spying mania that was in  the eighties.Excuse me for bad english.

[RedHawk]

I don't even know if the son is real.  That woman [irina] seemed like she was lying to him, to me anyway, at the time.

 

 

My strongest feeling is that Misha Jr. doesn't exist. I like how the show sets us up to question it, just as Philip must. Very interesting that he almost told Elizabeth about his possible other son, but she accidentally cut him off.

 

Aderholt was definitely trying to impress Martha by getting the classified files off the Mailbot. Then he gently tells Stan about the helicopter crash, wanting him to hear it from a co-worker first, not on the news or in random work chat. That made me a little suspicious. Is Aderholt really such a nice guy or is he maybe a real "Clark" -- a guy sent in to keep tabs on Gaad's department?

 

As squicky as it can be to watch Jim and Kimmie, when watching them interact I get flashes of the young adult woman that actress Julia Garner really is, so it's not quite so unsettling. At times you can see she's clearly not 15. But I don't mean the actress isn't good; I think she's amazing in the role. Sometimes she/Kimmie plays the "teenage seductress" and uses a woman's body language and expressions. Then she slips into 15-y-o Kimmie the kid when she's more relaxed with Jim and perhaps being herself rather than a little girl who needs validation. Their relationship doesn't bother me as a viewer because I think it's handled in an intriguing way. Yes, I see that it's "wrong" and icky, yet I see Philip's deep reluctance to take advantage of her. On the other hand, Pastor Tim's behavior with and toward Paige makes me shudder slightly.

[crabbypants]

The ending made me wonder, do we know that Phillip is Elizabeth's father and it's not Gregory? Seems odd to me she starts the story of who she really is by bringing up gregory

Gregory tells Phillip that he met Elizabeth when she was pregnant.

[PinkRibbons]

Gregory tells Phillip that he met Elizabeth when she was pregnant.

 

My memory is fuzzy, but I don't think she met him when she was pregnant; I think he said that once when she was pregnant with Paige she showed up at his place one night freaking out and saying she couldn't go back to her house and have a baby with Philip. I think she'd recruited him sooner.

[RedHawk]

Was that really a Sony Walkman Philip was playing the Floyd on? It looked way too large and clunky to me. I bought mine in February 1982 and it was smaller and more, well, elegant looking. IIRC, his looked like the larger knockoff models you saw even in the early 2000s and had some weird additional cloth casing on it. 

[sistermagpie]

My memory is fuzzy, but I don't think she met him when she was pregnant; I think he said that once when she was pregnant with Paige she showed up at his place one night freaking out and saying she couldn't go back to her house and have a baby with Philip. I think she'd recruited him sooner.

 

 

Yes, I think he just says they met when they were recruiting people to march for MLK with the SCLC. Which was I think planned in late 67. So she may have just gotten pregnant by the time they met, or else right before. But there's just no way Elizabeth would not be very careful about birth control at all times. If she wasn't already pregnant when she slept with Gregory (which she may very well have been even if they met before she was pregnant) she would be careful. By the time Paige was almost ready to be born Elizabeth had told him who she was since that's when she showed up unable to face it.

[Former Nun]

It's the kind of baptism that Baptists and other evangelical churches use. It's very common.

 

 

It's also common for the person being baptized to be able to hold his/her nose...OR for the pastor or the person performing the baptism to cover the person's nose and mouth.  

[Dev F]

Yes, I think he just says they met when they were recruiting people to march for MLK with the SCLC. Which was I think planned in late 67. So she may have just gotten pregnant by the time they met, or else right before. But there's just no way Elizabeth would not be very careful about birth control at all times.

 

And, heck, even if there were some sort of accident, there's no way she would go through with a pregnancy if there was a chance that Philip wasn't the father and Gregory was. There's nothing like an obviously mixed-race love child to blow your cover as typical white-bread couple with nothing to hide.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Dev F

[RedHawk]

It's also common for the person being baptized to be able to hold his/her nose...OR for the pastor or the person performing the baptism to cover the person's nose and mouth.

Yes, the baptism scene took a few artistic liberties though it still worked for me. Our minister held a white handkerchief over the nose and mouth as we were immersed. I can see why that wouldn't work as well for this scene because they wanted to show Paige's facial expressions.

Also, Paige was standing in a thing that looked like a portable bathtub with paneling all around it. Never saw anything like that. I don't think in 1982 churches had the technology to install a baptismal pool (not sure what we called it) that could raise up from the floor below. I shrugged until I realized: How was Paige supposed to get out? Typical Baptist churches had the baptismal pool behind and above the dias where the minister preached and the choir sat, and there were steps leading down to it, with a portrait of Jesus (just like the one in the episode) above it. My new church, built two years ago, has the baptismal in the floor under the dias, and you step down into it. I will never get used to that!

Anyone else notice that Elizabeth gets noticeably upset and stressed when Philip is with Kimmie? She had to go smoke a cigarette! And in the previous episode it showed her not able to sleep. She isn't "jealous" of Martha in that way, and I don't think it's just fear he will get caught.

[lucindabelle]

max1m1976, what do you make of the couple's complete lack of ANY language markers?

IAnd now Gabriel too.

I was always under the impression that unless you were raised to speak both you will always have an accent when going from certain languages to another. There is no trace, not even the tiniest one, not even in a particular word.

 

I just find it odd. Even Tom Stoppard, who left Czechoslovakia when he was 3, rolls his rs in a Czech way. It's a teensy trace, but it's there.

[sistermagpie]

I was always under the impression that unless you were raised to speak both you will always have an accent when going from certain languages to another. There is no trace, not even the tiniest one, not even in a particular word.

 

 

Totally not the person you were asking, but according to a linguist I know some people can do it, especially if they have a talent for that kind of mimicry. But it's definitely just a conceit of the show. Claudia not only speaks English with a perfect American accent(s) she stumbles over the one Russian name she has to say. 

 

I do think you can tell that MR lets himself use his own actual accent in playing the character. I mean, he doesn't use his accent, but he incorporates his own struggle to talk like an American into the way he acts as Philip, I think. If Stan learned he was an Illegal I would believe him saying that he had noticed something careful about the way he spoke even when his speech is casual. I could believe that Philip tries to avoid certain words the same way MR does for the same reason. I remember knowing someone, for instance, who came to the US at about 10 and didn't have an accent, but there was something about the way he spoke English that did come from being a native Polish speaker.

 

Another funny thing about MR is he makes his voice a little lower when he speaks with a US accent--and I swear when they did the flashbacks to him in the USSR speaking Russian he used his natural speaking voice. So I like to think Philip does the same thing.

[Umbelina]

max1m1976, what do you make of the couple's complete lack of ANY language markers?

IAnd now Gabriel too.

I was always under the impression that unless you were raised to speak both you will always have an accent when going from certain languages to another. There is no trace, not even the tiniest one, not even in a particular word.

 

I just find it odd. Even Tom Stoppard, who left Czechoslovakia when he was 3, rolls his rs in a Czech way. It's a teensy trace, but it's there.

If you check the "real spies" thread I posted some interesting stuff from Robert Baer, former CIA, now author and sometimes CNN commentator.  He consulted on RED and did the DVD commentary.  He said he knew KGB agents personally that spoke with perfect "Indiana American accents."  There is a school in Moscow that turns them out.

 

Totally not the person you were asking, but according to a linguist I know some people can do it, especially if they have a talent for that kind of mimicry. But it's definitely just a conceit of the show. Claudia not only speaks English with a perfect American accent(s) she stumbles over the one Russian name she has to say. 

 

I do think you can tell that MR lets himself use his own actual accent in playing the character. I mean, he doesn't use his accent, but he incorporates his own struggle to talk like an American into the way he acts as Philip, I think. If Stan learned he was an Illegal I would believe him saying that he had noticed something careful about the way he spoke even when his speech is casual. I could believe that Philip tries to avoid certain words the same way MR does for the same reason. I remember knowing someone, for instance, who came to the US at about 10 and didn't have an accent, but there was something about the way he spoke English that did come from being a native Polish speaker.

 

Another funny thing about MR is he makes his voice a little lower when he speaks with a US accent--and I swear when they did the flashbacks to him in the USSR speaking Russian he used his natural speaking voice. So I like to think Philip does the same thing.

For the most part I'm happy with the languages on this show, and (see above comment) now I'm even satisfied with Elizabeth and Philip's.

 

Also, I'm one of those lucky people who has that gift of mimicry, or at least with a couple of languages.  (I suck with French for example.)  A Russian friend of mine once told me "You speak my language so beautifully, but you say such stupid things."  At that point, I'd lost a lot of grammar and words, since I hadn't had the chance to speak it for ages, but my pronunciation was still impeccable.   I could even hear the difference in Russian from Ukraine (one of my professors, horrible Ukrainian twang) or someplace like Moscow. 

 

Ditto with Japanese for me, but that is such a wonderfully simple language grammatically, but again, tone and speaking it is everything, you have to hear it spoken well, to speak it well, and proper class/sex as well.  I had to give it up because I couldn't find a proper teacher here.  After Russian, I adored the straight forward Japanese so much.

[sistermagpie]

Also, I'm one of those lucky people who has that gift of mimicry, or at least with a couple of languages.  (I suck with French for example.)

 

 

Heh--I'm the opposite. French is the one I can do much better. I don't speak enough Russian to even know if I could mimic it correctly speaking it. After trying to speak any Russian French is practically like English it's so much more familiar grammatically!

 

Ahem. Getting back to the topic. Yes, I feel the same way about the languages on the show. The Russian speakers seem very good. I assume you heard the podcast where they said the translator flagged Oleg's father as having an improper accent so he did it again and the director thought he sounded the same but the translator said it was better that time.

[lucindabelle]

My takeaway from your quote is that it can be done but it's relatively rare and someh what imperfect. In any case, on this show, every single spy sounds perfect.

The "Murphys" in Monclair, on whom the idea for the show is based, had thick Russian accents. So the school in Moscow couldn't have been that great. I think it's one thing to get someone to speak with an accent well enough to be plausible on short visits, quite another to make someone son reflect so being they can live in a place and go undetected.

I'd say any country wanting to do that would be well served to use people who are bilingual from infancy.

And ultimately ID have to hear it to believe it, I guess. The only time ive ever heard that kind of fluency wrt accent was in peopke raised speaking. Both languages from birth.

I believe you when you describe your gifts. But not having heard you and not being a native speaker in the position to judge I really couldn't say... Forgive me if I'm inclined to doubt. I know I've said "your English is so good!" To people who speak very well but it does not mean I can't tell the they are not native speakers. There have been a few people who sounded that way at first bu something generally gives them away,

I have a good ear, and I can nearly always tell when English actors are being Americans and vice versa and don't get me started on Ireland. and that's just dialect within the same language. But thanks for the info.

Edited March 19, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Umbelina]

As I said though, Robert Baer, long time CIA agent, station chief, who has worked in Moscow, mentioned on the RED DVD that he knows (has met) perfect "Indiana American" speakers.  They train at one special school in Moscow. 

 

He said the Americans never achieved that, and said something like "You can't get Americans to be locked up for 5 years speaking and living nothing but Russian, so it never worked for us."

 

So, not only possible, but real.

 

I know what you mean though, when I first started watching I hadn't listened to that RED commentary in a while, and forgot all about that part of it.  I just decided to "go with it" for this show, suspend disbelief.  Now though?  I think it is not only possible, it happened. 

 

Hee, by the way, the first thing my Russian friend actually said to me was, "ohhhhh, like my mother!" since apparently I was the first American to pronounce his name correctly, and he hadn't realized he missed it.  I had him write it out for me.  ;)

Edited March 19, 2015 by Umbelina

[lucindabelle]

Yet despite what he said, the russian couple living in montclair who inspired the show and were here on deep cover for 20 years had thick accents.

If the school were so successful why not send a pair without accents? Just saying...

And again there's a difference between sounding perfect in short conversations and sounding perfect ongoing, particularly when they presumably speak Russian to kgb agents and so onl

The reasons Americans don't sound perfect makes no sense. There are plenty of Americans who've lived in foreign countries and spoken nothing but the language of that country formerl than five years and still don't sound as if they were born there.

Of course I've always believed if you dropped someone into. foreign country and they got treated like a baby with peopke speaking baby talk to them andn op lauding and praising them whenever they got anything right, adults would be fluent in two years, too.

Edited March 19, 2015 by lucindabelle

[BW Manilowe]

Totally not the person you were asking, but according to a linguist I know some people can do it, especially if they have a talent for that kind of mimicry. But it's definitely just a conceit of the show. Claudia not only speaks English with a perfect American accent(s) she stumbles over the one Russian name she has to say.

I do think you can tell that MR lets himself use his own actual accent in playing the character. I mean, he doesn't use his accent, but he incorporates his own struggle to talk like an American into the way he acts as Philip, I think. If Stan learned he was an Illegal I would believe him saying that he had noticed something careful about the way he spoke even when his speech is casual. I could believe that Philip tries to avoid certain words the same way MR does for the same reason. I remember knowing someone, for instance, who came to the US at about 10 and didn't have an accent, but there was something about the way he spoke English that did come from being a native Polish speaker.

Another funny thing about MR is he makes his voice a little lower when he speaks with a US accent--and I swear when they did the flashbacks to him in the USSR speaking Russian he used his natural speaking voice. So I like to think Philip does the same thing.

I remember when we brought up (way before we got here) how Matthew mispronounced a couple of words in 1 or more eps in a past season so they sounded more like he'd say them as a native Welshman/UK resident, if not still citizen, than as the native born American Philip's supposed to be. I don't even think they were said the way a native born Russian speaking English/masquerading as a native born American would say them.

I forget 1 of the words now--this happened in either S1 or S2 & it's been awhile since I've seen those eps. Perhaps someone reading this who remembers the original discussion can refresh my memory on what it was/how Matthew mispronounced it as Philip?

The word I remember he mispronounced was "secretary". I probably remember it as I've heard a lot of UKers say it before--apparently more than the other word, at least.

Anyway, as Philip, Matthew said the word so it sounded like "secre-tree"; Americans--or many/most of them, anyway--normally say that word as "sec-re-tear (rhymes with bear, not fear)-e", or pretty close to that.

So there are a couple words out there that the show's writers need to avoid giving Philip to say... at least/especially in front of characters Philip's not supposed to step out of character around, like maybe Stan. Or else a dialogue coach, or language coach, needs to work with Matthew when he has a script where Philip has to say words like that to people he can't slip up in front of.

[sistermagpie]

Yet despite what he said, the russian couple living in montclair who inspired the show and were here on deep cover for 20 years had thick accents.

If the school were so successful why not send a pair without accents? Just saying...

 

 

I think the idea is just that yes, there are people who are capable of passing for a native--maybe they, too, might occasionally slip up but if people already think they're a native they'll make excuses for that so they won't be noticed. But it's not so simply as just being able to make anybody do it with the same class. And in reality this native-level ability was *not* standard for real Illegals, as we know from that family.

 

It's actually odd that when we see flashbacks to Elizabeth at 17 she has a thick accent-she must have really had to work on it.

 

I remember when we brought up (way before we got here) how Matthew mispronounced a couple of words in 1 or more eps in a past season so they sounded more like he'd say them as a native Welshman/UK resident, if not still citizen, than as the native born American Philip's supposed to be. I don't even think they were said the way a native born Russian speaking English/masquerading as a native born American would say them.

 

 

I know for me the words that have always stood out for me with him is above all "model"--when he had to say "model airplanes" and "models" in "Comrades." That one was tough and sounded more British than Russian to me. Likewise I think he and Martha both might somehow lose an R in a word, like "surveillance." Again, it pings more as British than as Russian, but the general feeling that he's working at the accent still works for Philip. I think he also stumbled on "electricity" in the pilot, but it just sounded like a stumble more than a specific accent.

 

I do remember one interview where he said sometimes if he's tired and the script has "murderer" he'll just say "Can I say killer?" Much easier.

[BW Manilowe]

I think the idea is just that yes, there are people who are capable of passing for a native--maybe they, too, might occasionally slip up but if people already think they're a native they'll make excuses for that so they won't be noticed. But it's not so simply as just being able to make anybody do it with the same class. And in reality this native-level ability was *not* standard for real Illegals, as we know from that family.

It's actually odd that when we see flashbacks to Elizabeth at 17 she has a thick accent-she must have really had to work on it.

I know for me the words that have always stood out for me with him is above all "model"--when he had to say "model airplanes" and "models" in "Comrades." That one was tough and sounded more British than Russian to me. Likewise I think he and Martha both might somehow lose an R in a word, like "surveillance." Again, it pings more as British than as Russian, but the general feeling that he's working at the accent still works for Philip. I think he also stumbled on "electricity" in the pilot, but it just sounded like a stumble more than a specific accent.

I do remember one interview where he said sometimes if he's tired and the script has "murderer" he'll just say "Can I say killer?" Much easier.

"Electricity"! I think that's the badly pronounced word (for someone who's supposedly an American) I forgot from the earlier season. Thank you for that. But I think I caught it somewhere after the Pilot.

I think he said the 1st syllable as if it were the letter L, as opposed to the letter E. He said both the slightly-off pronunciations I caught in the same ep. I distinctly remember that.

My ears haven't "twigged" yet to "model", "models" or "surveillance" for some reason. I'll have to try & listen more carefully for them the rest of the season.

I think, if I were Matthew, I'd prefer to say "killer" instead of "murderer" too. You can't fault him for that. Especially if he's tired. If you're tired & trying to maintain a "non-native" accent, that's usually when it's gonna slip & you'll revert to your "native" accent.

I think it probably happens to native Aussie Alex O'Loughlin, who plays American Navy Lt. Commander Steve McGarrett in Hawaii Five-0, too. That's my other favorite show, & I know I--& others--have caught a few times when McGarrett sounded slightly more Aussie than American over the last 5 seasons.

[lucindabelle]

I think it's hilarious hat a native speaker of English even slips up on certain words but people think a native speaker of Russian never would. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I keep coming back to the fact gat the actual embed couple in the suburbs had thick accents so any school in Moscow churning them out obviously wasn't doing it consistently.

Fwiw I pronounce secretary sek re terry. But yeah, Americans pronounce each syllable in words like that, including lavatory, laboratory, wtc. Brits don't.

[sistermagpie]

I think it's hilarious hat a native speaker of English even slips up on certain words but people think a native speaker of Russian never would. I'm sorry I just don't buy it, I keep coming back to the fact gat the actual embed couple in the suburbs had thick accents so any school in Moscow churning them out obviously wasn't doing it consistently.

 

 

But nobody thinks that. We're saying that we've accepted the conceit of the show that P&E pass for Americans using how KR speaks and how MR speaks with an American accent, and that we know that in the real world people have been known to pass for natives in some situations. That doesn't meant those people passing never slip up on a word. I like it when MR slips up on a word because even when he's slipping up in a way that sounds Welsh and not Russian because it "feels' like it's Philip slipping up too. Yet there are still people who are surprised to hear that MR doesn't talk like that all the time. It makes Philip actually more believable to me that he can do that.

 

Passing for native isn't even always about pronouncing everything correctly, after all--and if you're only seeing somebody for a limited time, of course, it's easier to not get enough info to notice. But in the context of the show I accept that this is supposed to be how P&E have been taught to speak, even if I don't believe that in the real world anybody can go to a class and come out sounding like a native.

 

ETA: I just happened to come across an article on this very question and posted it in the Real Spies thread.

Edited March 21, 2015 by sistermagpie

[SlovakPrincess]

Put your clothes on, Kimmy. God, you're 15. Gah, this storyline ... at least Philip found a way out of this mess ... for now.

Gabriel is fucking creepy to be pushing this. I don't trust him at all with this Irina story.

Ugh, I hate that Nina is having to sell out the poor Belgian girl to save herself. It's tragic.

I think Elizabeth should be stoned all the time.

Oh, Stan. Sandra doesn't want to comfort you every time something bad happens.

[Roseanna]

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 2:35 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I really don't care about Nina. I'm not happy that we have seen so little of the rezidentura and Arkady. Oleg has been pushed into some silly story line about "what we will do for love" with Stan.

It seems silly but it can become dangerous to Oleg if he is soft-hearted enough to give information to Stan. I even doubt that Stan, although he no doubt loves Nina, tries Oleg's love for Nina as a ploy: if Oleg gives something, by threatening to reveal his treason to KGB he can be turned.

In practice, Stan uses the same ploy against Oleg that was used against him in S2. 

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 3:02 PM, soapfaninnc said:

I hated Nina turning on the cellmate though I see why she had to do it.  

She didn't have to do it. She chose to do it. 

I liked Nina when she earlier used her wits and sex appeal to survive in the situation where she could be killed and, as was seen, couldn't ultimately trust help from anybody. And then those with whom she played with and used were professional spies who played games of their own where they used her.

Now I find the situation quite different. She is in a prison (it doesn't really seem to be a work camp) and, the meanest people there were those who informed on fellow intimates.       

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 3:38 PM, TeresaDee said:

There was a question upthread regarding the value of the information Nina learned from her cellmate. The woman had been claiming that she had no knowledge of what she was doing when she made the drop, just doing a favor for her boyfriend. She revealed to Nina that she knew exactly what she was doing...but did it anyway for love. Stupid girl, it might cost her her life.

Yes, stupid. It's the oldest trick to put an informer in the same cell.  

On ‎5‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 7:53 PM, RazzleberryPie said:

Nina and the Belgian should be more interesting, but it isn't. Nina will do whatever she needs to get out of there, so I was expecting a full betrayal without much remorse. Not that she owed that girl anything or had any relationship with her. 

I find this kind of ethics strange. According to it, its wrong to sleep with your friend's spouse, but its ok if you don't know your lover's spouse. But it's just how we treat people who are strangers to us and/or to whom we don't own anything, that shows what kind of people we are. 

In this case, as informing about fellow intimates was the meanest thing one could do in prison, Nina had to chose whether to retain even something of her moral integrity or sacrifice all of it.   

 

On ‎6‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 6:38 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Nina sure has a cold, cold heart.  Plus, I don't think the KGB is going to release her.  It would have made more sense to come and remove her from the cell and then release her, leaving the other woman there alone, if that were the case.  Anyway, if she really was spying for someone, it would likely be known to someone who would eventually negotiate for her release (one hopes).

 

On ‎6‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 6:58 PM, Boundary said:

I might be the only one but I'm beginning to suspect that Nina was the one being played. It was all to easy and totally unsubtle for this show. So far, onscreen at least, it's only been Nina confessing, confessing, confessing... with only a steak and red wine to show for it. That grab from the cell was way too dramatic. I won't be surprised if it turns out as it played - besides, we need Nina back, don't we? But I'd be more impressed if that stunt was Oleg's father just trying break through Nina's facade, with some success I might add.

I think Boundary may be right. Did KGB really need any further information about the Belgian girl? They had proof enough to condemn her. 

In that case, unlike Dowel Jones, I would guess that KGB wanted to test Nina: was she willing to do anything? If yes, she can be used in further operations. 

On ‎6‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 8:36 PM, Helena Dax said:

 The actress who plays Nina  is just gorgeous. I loved that last shot, when she was sitting on her bunk. I don't hate her for bertraying that poor girl. Nina really loves her country: no way she was going to put Evi above the USSR and  her own life. 

I don't believe that Nina did it of patriotism, if she indeed has any. She did it only of self-interest. 

In addition, it's another matter to inform about people who are at liberty and aim to harm your country. But Evi was in prison and could make no more harm.

Nina's action was mean but the way she did it was superb: she "confessed" her own real crimes in order to get Evi to trust her and then confess in turn. 

Note that Nina said that she had loved two men, i.e. both Stan and Oleg. And earlier Arkady said to Oleg that they had bugged the CIA safe house and Nina hadn't reported about two meetings with Stan (evidently after she confessed her treason to Arkady). From that Arkady concluded that she might have loved Stan. 

I must confess that until Stan killed her friend, I believed that Nina had fallen for Stan. Later I interpreted that she had acted: knowing that Stan would sacrifice her in a heatbeat if becessary, she had to make him dependent on her sexually and emotionally.  Maybe it was both or rather, for a time she believed in her act.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I must confess that until Stan killed her friend, I believed that Nina had fallen for Stan. Later I interpreted that she had acted: knowing that Stan would sacrifice her in a heatbeat if becessary, she had to make him dependent on her sexually and emotionally.  Maybe it was both or rather, for a time she believed in her act.  

I think one of the things that Nina did sometimes fall for in Stan was the idea that he could save her. If she had real feelings for him, I feel like it was tied up in that, that he was trying to be heroic and he could actually do it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 10:44 PM, RedHawk said:

My strongest feeling is that Misha Jr. doesn't exist. I like how the show sets us up to question it, just as Philip must. 

I don't think the central question is at all whether Misha Jr exists or not, especially as Philip can't possibly know it for sure. 

We know Philip's values: to him, the family is the most important. In the same, although he resents KGB and his job, he is also upset whenever Russians die.

Formerly, his options were: if he defects, he can be along with Paige and Henry, but it's likely than he must part of Elizabeth whom he also loves. And by betraying his country he must send some Russian spies to prison and later (if he gives false information) cause death to other Russians.

Now, he must also chose between his children: either Paige and Henry or Mischa Jr. And only Mischa's life in danger. Not in the sense that KGB would threaten to kill him (I don't believe it), but they can save him asking to send him home from Afghanistan.  On the other hand, it would shame him in his comrade's eyes. 

Generally, Philip is in the same situation as an American parent when the USA goes to war about whose rightness opinions differ and your child is waging it.

And even more generally, whether you support your country's war or oppose it, is your opinion about the policy more important than your child? And is your child's life more important than the child's life of other parents? And are only offers of your own nationality important to you - what about the offers of the opponent who have parents too? 

I don't think there is no self-evident answer. It depends on the situation. Whatever your decision, you can't just do right, you also do wrong. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎12‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 5:59 PM, RedHawk said:

Yes, the baptism scene took a few artistic liberties 

Was one of those aristic liberties that Paige dindn't say the confession of faith (Apostolic or Athanius's)? 

On ‎21‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 6:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

But nobody thinks that. We're saying that we've accepted the conceit of the show that P&E pass for Americans using how KR speaks and how MR speaks with an American accent, and that we know that in the real world people have been known to pass for natives in some situations. That doesn't meant those people passing never slip up on a word. I like it when MR slips up on a word because even when he's slipping up in a way that sounds Welsh and not Russian because it "feels' like it's Philip slipping up too. Yet there are still people who are surprised to hear that MR doesn't talk like that all the time. It makes Philip actually more believable to me that he can do that.

Passing for native isn't even always about pronouncing everything correctly, after all--and if you're only seeing somebody for a limited time, of course, it's easier to not get enough info to notice. But in the context of the show I accept that this is supposed to be how P&E have been taught to speak, even if I don't believe that in the real world anybody can go to a class and come out sounding like a native.

Passing for native isn't only about language, it's knowing thousand of things that everybody knows and what is normal and polite and what is not. Of course, there can perfectly valid reasons why one don't know them, f.ex. if one has lived one's youth abroad because one's parents were diplomats or missionaries.

During the war people tend to be suspicions if somebody behaves even a little abnormally, but otherwise people can easily accept an explanation for oddities if they like a person. Just like Martha does.