All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I got the Carol/Jeanie feud and the Carol/Maggie dislike. It was one line of consistency that Carol had self-confidence issues--those show up not necessarily with every woman you work with but it made sense to show up with the PA and the person who is her age from the same place. Not admirable but realistic. 

Echoing those who love Blizzard. It's the best, starting off with SleighRide music at the start. 

I always felt that Ruby unfairly dumped on Carter. No, Carter wasn't perfect but Ruby's expectations were over the top. He didn't acknowledge his role in it, and he shared blame. But Carter did learn from it.

Also ER at least in the early years was consistent in showing that even the nicest people can be jealous and petty at work. Mark was always kind of passive aggressive if good things happened to Doug professionally and he was slippery about how much "support" he gave his friends. Not admirable, but realistic. Benton was so hard on poor Gant because he assumed Gant was there because of affirmative action. Carter wasn't all that nice with Gant either because he liked not being yelled at by Benton for a change. Susan was very jealous of Kerry.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I always felt that Ruby unfairly dumped on Carter. No, Carter wasn't perfect but Ruby's expectations were over the top. He didn't acknowledge his role in it, and he shared blame. But Carter did learn from it.

I thought Ruby's story was pretty believable. Carter kept telling him a these procedures and treatments that they were going to do. Most people in that situation probably don't really know what they mean and are going to trust that their doctor is acting in their best interest. Which for Ruby best interest meant fixing/curing his wife. Problem was that was kind of impossible, and Carter was also being directed by Vusilich and he was only really acting in the best interest of his study and making sure that the wife stayed alive long enough to count as part of it.  No one bothered to tell him that his wife was going to recover. I don't know if that is like a generational thing where people his age just believed that doctor's knew best and would work to cure them.

[debraran]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I thought Ruby's story was pretty believable. Carter kept telling him a these procedures and treatments that they were going to do. Most people in that situation probably don't really know what they mean and are going to trust that their doctor is acting in their best interest. Which for Ruby best interest meant fixing/curing his wife. Problem was that was kind of impossible, and Carter was also being directed by Vusilich and he was only really acting in the best interest of his study and making sure that the wife stayed alive long enough to count as part of it.  No one bothered to tell him that his wife was going to recover. I don't know if that is like a generational thing where people his age just believed that doctor's knew best and would work to cure them.

They were pushing him around, wanting his wife off service. etc. He was pushy but did love his wife very much and was clinging to any hope.

Carter felt guilty because he knew and knew he lied. I thought the funeral talk was spot on though. Despite what Carter felt, that day was not about him.

Edited November 30, 2020 by debraran

[Heathen]

Season one, "Motherhood" -- Lewis delivers her own niece because Coburn is twenty minutes away. In a busy, big city hospital, there was only one OB on duty ("she's doing a crash C-section in four")? Is that level of staffing legit? Also, the birth was entirely too normal for ER, or the caricature ER became later. Shouldn't the baby have been breech or sideways (I'M KIDDING, PEOPLE) or been an alien? 

I can't stand Kathleen Wilhoite to this day. 

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Season one, "Motherhood" -- Lewis delivers her own niece because Coburn is twenty minutes away. In a busy, big city hospital, there was only one OB on duty ("she's doing a crash C-section in four")? Is that level of staffing legit? Also, the birth was entirely too normal for ER, or the caricature ER became later. Shouldn't the baby have been breech or sideways (I'M KIDDING, PEOPLE) or been an alien? 

I can't stand Kathleen Wilhoite to this day. 

I'm an OB/GYN, practicing in a midwestern city at a large hospital, I actually worked for the county hospital system back in the late 80's-early 90's, just before ER debuted.  At any big teaching hospital, even back then, there would've been at least a couple of OB residents present 24/7 as well as at least one attending on site.  Most of the time, there would've been 2 or 3 attendings hanging around waiting for someone to deliver who would've been more than happy to cover for Coburn on the delivery. So, no, Susan wouldn't have been the only one available to deliver her niece.  For that matter, Kerry's insistence on delivering Carol's first twin in the ER instead of rushing her up to labor and delivery wouldn't have happened either.  And there is absolutely no way on God's green earth that Mark would've been left alone to manage and deliver an eclamptic patient despite repeated calls for help over many, many hours. There was nobody in labor on L&D in worse shape than Jody, in real life, Mark would've pushed her bed up to the birthing unit himself rather than allow the OB's to ignore her like he did.

[Kel Varnsen]

45 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Is that level of staffing legit? Lewis delivers her own niece because Coburn is twenty minutes away. In a busy, big city hospital, there was only one OB on duty ("she's doing a crash C-section in four")? Is that level of staffing legit? 

It seems like it is the same for surgery. Benton and Corday are always stuck doing surgery because the hospital only has like 4 surgeons (both of them, Romano, and Anspaugh, although sometimes Dale I guess). And it is usually one of those people assisting another one and you have to wonder how more than two surgeries happens on any given day.

[Heathen]

59 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It seems like it is the same for surgery. Benton and Corday are always stuck doing surgery because the hospital only has like 4 surgeons (both of them, Romano, and Anspaugh, although sometimes Dale I guess). And it is usually one of those people assisting another one and you have to wonder how more than two surgeries happens on any given day.

Unless Benton/Corday/Anspaugh has been operating for 77 hours straight and is called into a trauma while walking out of the hospital, then all the mysterious Surgeons X have the flu, broke their leg skiing, or are out of town at their mother-in-law's funeral! 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Heathen

[doodlebug]

38 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Unless Benton/Corday/Anspaugh has been operating for 77 hours straight and is called into a trauma while walking out of the hospital, thenall the mysterious Surgeons X have the flu, broke their leg skiing, or are out of town at their mother-in-law's funeral! 

Remember all the way back to Season 1?  Mark was Chief Resident, but where were the attendings?  Morgenstern dropped by every now and then on his way to someplace else; while Mark was seemingly in charge of everything.  When Susan wasn't around, he didn't even have another ER resident to help him out.  He would've been named in the suit when Jody died, but there should've been an attending supervising him who would've borne the brunt of the blame for the outcome. Then, as the series progressed, Kerry was Chief Resident in Season 2, and she often had Mark around as her attending supervising her. Eventually Chen and then Carter became Chief and they were virtually never alone in the ER without an attending supervising them.  Unless Kerry had a meeting with the detective searching for her mother, there was almost always a boss in the building.

[Heathen]

12 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

Remember all the way back to Season 1?  Mark was Chief Resident, but where were the attendings?  Morgenstern dropped by every now and then on his way to someplace else; while Mark was seemingly in charge of everything.  When Susan wasn't around, he didn't even have another ER resident to help him out.  He would've been named in the suit when Jody died, but there should've been an attending supervising him who would've borne the brunt of the blame for the outcome. Then, as the series progressed, Kerry was Chief Resident in Season 2, and she often had Mark around as her attending supervising her. Eventually Chen and then Carter became Chief and they were virtually never alone in the ER without an attending supervising them.  Unless Kerry had a meeting with the detective searching for her mother, there was almost always a boss in the building.

I'm finishing season one (again) now. We talk about the show jumping the shark in later seasons, but even from the start, there was a LOT of totally ludicrous artistic license going on. Example: the way the show treats seizure patients. I have epilepsy. So did my late grandmother. Both of us spent time in the ER after seizures. Neither of us got Ativan for uncomplicated (non-status) seizures the second we rolled through the door before the doctor even looked at us. 

Not to mention, the way the show does CPR. 

[doodlebug]

39 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I'm finishing season one (again) now. We talk about the show jumping the shark in later seasons, but even from the start, there was a LOT of totally ludicrous artistic license going on. Example: the way the show treats seizure patients. I have epilepsy. So did my late grandmother. Both of us spent time in the ER after seizures. Neither of us got Ativan for uncomplicated (non-status) seizures the second we rolled through the door before the doctor even looked at us. 

Not to mention, the way the show does CPR. 

ER often made things look more urgent than they were.  They compressed the timelines quite a bit, too, so they were constantly shouting out orders during a code and would proceed from assessing the patient to doing CPR, to intubating, to dropping big lines, to cardioversion, chest tubes and cracking the chest on everyone; all within 5 minutes of arrival to the ER.  In real life, even in the biggest emergencies; those steps are taken more slowly and it would take at least half an hour or more to get to the end of the line.  Most people who arrest don't end up with chest tubes or cardioversion because they don't need those particular interventions; ER made them seem more commonplace than they actually are.  Opening up the chest is almost never done, when I was a resident, it would have been done by a surgical resident, not the ER doc and it was virtually never successful.  If a resident cracked a chest, he or she had better be prepared to defend themselves because it was generally looked upon as a cowboy move done for the surgeon's benefit, not the patient's.  At least that was the case back in the 90's when ER was doing it weekly.

 They also presented far more young people coding after trauma than in real life.  Most people getting CPR in the ER are elderly folks who've had strokes or heart attacks and they usually don't do too well.  The survival rate for a person who gets CPR is around 10% total-except on TV.  Also, we never see the follow up and the fact of the matter is that many of those who do survive after receiving CPR after a cardiac arrest suffer serious hypoxic brain injuries as well as kidney failure, cardiac damage and other serious complications.  What we never saw on ER was the elderly patient who survived CPR in the ER only to be transferred to ICU and removed from life support a couple days later when it was clear they would never wake up again.  ER made it look way too easy.

I can give them a pass on the poorly performed CPR since ER usually used actors and not dummies for the patient and doing real CPR on someone can easily break their ribs.  Not so good.

Edited December 1, 2020 by doodlebug

[Heathen]

2 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I can give them a pass on the poorly performed CPR since ER usually used actors and not dummies for the patient and doing real CPR on someone can easily break their ribs.  Not so good.

I wish they'd have faked CPR rather than doing it incorrectly -- with horizontal arms, for instance. But that's the kind of thing that I just find absurd. 

More stuff -- the wildly inappropriate behavior of some staff members. Hello, Luka and Abby. 

[Kel Varnsen]

48 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

ER often made things look more urgent than they were.  They compressed the timelines quite a bit, too, so they were constantly shouting out orders during a code and would proceed from assessing the patient to doing CPR, to intubating, to dropping big lines, to cardioversion, chest tubes and cracking the chest on everyone; all within 5 minutes of arrival to the ER. 

I always wonder about that. Everytime a trauma comes in the docs are screaming for a these tests (CBC). But I have to think that by the time the nurse takes the blood (or whatever to the lab the scene is going to be over.

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I can give them a pass on the poorly performed CPR since ER usually used actors and not dummies for the patient and doing real CPR on someone can easily break their ribs.  Not so good.

Yeah, I let that slide since anything resembling a proper demonstration of CPR would harm the actors.  What I can't get past on medical shows, though, is how many patients skip right to asystole -- and then get defibrillated.

[debraran]

I forgive since it has to be put in such a small time frame and keep viewers interest, but it was always voted in the 5 for accuracy, not perfect but ok. CPR was mentioned too as "off" depending on episode but as others as stated, it was to be safe and not to teach. I did like the blood accuracy compared to others. MASH did a pretty good job showing the gore and emotions of war hospital, I think as Alan Alda said on the show, they bumped it up a notch and then some. From an older article:

While the writers of “ER” met with real doctors to develop ideas for episodes, the show is by no means the most medically accurate on this list. For example, The New York Times reported that medical students were not placing breathing tubes correctly because they had learned the skill from watching shows like “ER.” In a similar vein, a 1996 study in the New England Journal of Medicine found that medical TV shows like “ER” were giving people unrealistic expectations about CPR’s effectiveness: On the show, CPR saves the patient’s life significantly more often than it would in reality. Additionally, the show often has doctors performing duties that, in real life, would be the nurses’ jobs, Sandy Summers, executive director of the Center for Nursing Advocacy, told Forbes. On the bright side, the show gains accuracy points for raising awareness for many important health issues, like the availability of emergency contraception and the link between HPV and cervical cancer.

House was given good points on certain things too and not on others.  Scrubs (which I never watched) was given high marks by some doctors. I might try to watch that on these cold, no show winter months. I was glad to see my fav Call the Midwife was given almost perfect scores by most. ; )

(on a side note, those med students came from where? Scary a show would override teaching methods)

Edited December 1, 2020 by debraran

[doodlebug]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yeah, I let that slide since anything resembling a proper demonstration of CPR would harm the actors.  What I can't get past on medical shows, though, is how many patients skip right to asystole -- and then get defibrillated.

Because, of course, asystole can be corrected by defibrillating the patient, except not.  Apparently, all of the patients who looked to be  asystolic on the show were in fine v-fib.  Of course, that is only a distinction that viewers who've got some medical background could make.  Granted, it has been about 38 years since I was an intern on a medical service, but ER and all other medical shows use the defibrillator far more often than it is used in real life.  They like the visual, I suppose.  As an intern, I spent 4 months on the medical service and attended hundreds of codes.  Only a small percentage got defibrillated, mainly because most patients are in asystole (because they were very old and very sick and slipped away in their hospital beds before the nurse found them).  And you don't bust asystole because it doesn't work.

[RedbirdNelly]

the above comments support my theory that it is easier to watch a show that is outside of your area than one that is within your area of expertise. Med shows don't bother me since I'm not medical--until they misquote HIPAA. It's easier for me to ignore things than if I'm watching a legal show where the inaccuracies make me want to roll my eyes. 

But I do think it's better when shows aim for us much accuracy as they can. 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Granted, it has been about 38 years since I was an intern on a medical service, but ER and all other medical shows use the defibrillator far more often than it is used in real life.  They like the visual, I suppose. 

That is interesting about actual paddles. Is it the same thing with intubation? Because it seems like they do that a lot in ER and I wonder if it is just because directors like the visual of the doctor with that blade thing in their hands, struggling with the chords then saying "got it" and dramatically pulling the wire out of the tube.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That is interesting about actual paddles. Is it the same thing with intubation? Because it seems like they do that a lot in ER and I wonder if it is just because directors like the visual of the doctor with that blade thing in their hands, struggling with the chords then saying "got it" and dramatically pulling the wire out of the tube.

If someone is coding, it is fairly standard to intubate them, especially in the case of trauma victims who are going to the OR anyway.  However, on ER, we see a disproportionate number of trauma victims compared to the usual patient who is coding and is elderly and has multiple health problems.  Many of them have a living will that rules out intubation, and, if they don't; docs are still reluctant to intubate because the patient may well end up on a ventilator for the rest of their life. 

Remember the scene when Carter is supervising Abby as she cares for the husband of the elderly woman who eventually dies in 'Be Still My Heart'?  The husband is doing poorly after suffering smoke inhalation in a fire, but he also has serious chronic lung problems (COPD, I think).  Abby is gung ho to intubate him, to 'save' his life and touts this aggressive approach with the wife who is amenable to whatever the doctor thinks is best.  Carter comes along, takes a look at the situation and realizes that this guy's baseline lung function is so poor that he will end up with a tracheostomy on a ventilator in a nursing home if they take that first step and intubate him.  He gently talks the wife through that scenario and allows her time to realize that it might not be in her husband's best interest to aggressively treat him, but, instead, provide him with comfort and treatment without intubating and let things take their course.  He ends up dying.  That is the more usual approach taken in the ER with the typical patient who suffers a cardiac or respiratory arrest.

Also, in virtually all hospitals of medium or larger size, there is usually an anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist present 24/7.  Most ER docs would defer to them to perform the intubation rather than doing it themselves, especially these days where there is a lot of harm that can be done with a bad intubation, opening up a huge can of liability worms.  Having a lawyer ask in a deposition why the ER doc did the botched intubation when there was an anesthesia expert just a couple of floors away tends to convince one not to do stuff like intubate.  Also, on ER, the intubations are generally very slick, wham, bam, done!!  Not so much in real life where the patient is vomiting, turning blue and the doc's adrenaline is flowing, hands are shaking.  Yes, many ER docs are quite slick and manage to work under the worst of circumstances, but there is a lot of fumbling around that happens in those high risk situations.

Edited December 1, 2020 by doodlebug

[RedbirdNelly]

the discussion of OBs being available reminds me of when my 2nd child was born. When he was ready, he shot out in 10 minutes. They paged my OB but she wasn't able to get there and a doctor I did not know came into deliver him. We joke we're not sure she was an OB vs someone coming by the unit to wish some friends a Merry Christmas. I don't think she was on duty--judging by the fact she had to return sheepishly to our room a bit later to retrieve her winter coat she'd accidentally left behind. Anyway, she did a fine job and I'm just glad no one tried to tell me to wait. . .

[Dr.OO7]

On 11/30/2020 at 12:14 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

I got the Carol/Jeanie feud and the Carol/Maggie dislike. It was one line of consistency that Carol had self-confidence issues--those show up not necessarily with every woman you work with but it made sense to show up with the PA and the person who is her age from the same place. Not admirable but realistic. 

Exactly. She even rather sheepishly admitted to Doug that she felt insecure because--"She got through medical school and I can't even get through the door!"--at the beginning of the episode she was convinced that she'd done badly on her MCATs and even earlier, she'd told him that she that she just wanted to prove to herself that she was good enough.

In that very episode where they first clashed, she was having a bad day and unfortunately--but not unrealistically--took it out on the nearest available target. If anything, I thought it was Maggie who made a rather snide passive aggressive comment about how she could never settle for being "just a nurse" (she had started out in nursing school before switching to medicine) and later rebuffed Carol's attempt at offering an olive branch.

On 11/30/2020 at 1:24 AM, Growsonwalls said:

But she sure forgot about him in a hot minute. That was pretty shitty of her. Tag was a nice guy. 

Season 2 same thing. She's with Shep but peaces out when he's going through PTSD because again, she doesn't like or love him.

That's the fate of a Disposable Love Interest.

As far as breaking up with Shep, it was because he was refusing to admit that he even had a problem, much less get help for it. I think things would have been different had he done either of those things. It's like being in a relationship (familial/platonic/romantic) with someone who's an alcoholic or addict--no matter how much you love them, there comes a point where you can't let them drag you down.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Because, of course, asystole can be corrected by defibrillating the patient, except not.  Apparently, all of the patients who looked to be  asystolic on the show were in fine v-fib.  Of course, that is only a distinction that viewers who've got some medical background could make. 

I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, but I just happen to know that, so it bugs me.

[doodlebug]

The discussion of Carol's MCAT scores is another inaccuracy that bugs me.  If you recall, she got stellar marks, which is fine, no reason to think she couldn't do well.  But, then, Kerry somehow knows her scores and begs her to consider the local medical school because the Ivy League schools are going to be beating down her door trying to recruit her to their institutions.  Uh... no.  First, Kerry has no right to look at Carol's MCAT scores unless/until Carol applies to the med school and Kerry is on the committee doing the interviews.  She just got her scores, no way she could have possibly submitted them already.  Then, MCAT scores are just one small part of the admission process.  There are far more people with top flight MCAT scores than there are places at the top medical schools and no one is going to be trying to lure Carol to their school because she is head and shoulders above everyone else.  It does not happen.  The Ivy League and other good schools have no problem filling their classes with the best of the best, they don't have to beg or plead with anyone to consider them, even Carol.  In real life, it is vice versa.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

47 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

But, then, Kerry somehow knows her scores and begs her to consider the local medical school

Speaking of which, is there a reason.why the medical school was never named? They always talk about the Dean and the faculty but never say the name of the school. Carter is even an RA. It seems like there would be two options that would work, you make up a fake name like the Chicago equivalent of Hudson University (without the rapes and murders of course) or just get permission to use a real Chicago University (it was the most popular show in the US at one point, it couldn't have been that hard to make that happen).

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kel Varnsen

[CrazyInAlabama]

It might have been a popular program, but considering some of the incidents at the school (Lucy and the drunken and drugged Halloween party for example), I don't think any school would want the publicity of being associated with ER.    

Edited December 2, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[debraran]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

The discussion of Carol's MCAT scores is another inaccuracy that bugs me.  If you recall, she got stellar marks, which is fine, no reason to think she couldn't do well.  But, then, Kerry somehow knows her scores and begs her to consider the local medical school because the Ivy League schools are going to be beating down her door trying to recruit her to their institutions.  Uh... no.  First, Kerry has no right to look at Carol's MCAT scores unless/until Carol applies to the med school and Kerry is on the committee doing the interviews.  She just got her scores, no way she could have possibly submitted them already.  Then, MCAT scores are just one small part of the admission process.  There are far more people with top flight MCAT scores than there are places at the top medical schools and no one is going to be trying to lure Carol to their school because she is head and shoulders above everyone else.  It does not happen.  The Ivy League and other good schools have no problem filling their classes with the best of the best, they don't have to beg or plead with anyone to consider them, even Carol.  In real life, it is vice versa.

 

That was barf worthy, always fawning over Carol. Same with PA's and admission, also very competitive. My friends son got 4.0 and had trouble getting in Yale's or other PA school in our state. When his mom said to admissions guy she knew, he has the scores, volunteers, he said, "you see these files here, all 3.8-4.0" You need more. Privacy laws were discarded in this show, who's peeking at medical history, scores, etc. That bugged me but overlooked it because overall they were fine. Carol seemed to want to feel superior while nursing (You know I could be a med student) but not stretch that far. That's fine and she made mistakes and broke rules same as others and wasn't special. They all worked as a good team.

Edited December 2, 2020 by debraran

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Speaking of which, is there a reason.why the medical school was never named? They always talk about the Dean and the faculty but never say the name of the school. Carter is even an RA. It seems like there would be two options that would work, you make up a fake name like the Chicago equivalent of Hudson University (without the rapes and murders of course) or just get permission to use a real Chicago University (it was the most popular show in the US at one point, it couldn't have been that hard to make that happen).

They fictionalized the hospital since there is no County General Hospital in Chicago.  The public hospital there is Cook County AKA John Stroger Hospital and ER definitely seemed to use that as their model for the TV hospital.  As far as med schools, there are 4 major med schools based in Chicago and I would expect most if not all of them have students on clinical rotation at Cook County but its main affiliation is with Rush University.  The other med schools are Northwestern University, Pritzker (U of Chicago) and the University of Illinois.  They seemed to imply that Carter and the rest of the med students were from Northwestern since we saw Carter wearing a Northwestern sweatshirt a couple times and, at his medical school graduation ceremony, which he missed,  the seal of Northwestern School of Medicine was clearly visible.  Meanwhile, in the first couple of seasons, the helicopters that took patients to and from County were from the University of Chicago Medical Center.

I think ER didn't specify which med schools and hospitals it was affiliated with in order to allow them to use whatever resources were available at the time they filmed in Chicago.  There were specific mentions of Northwestern and the University of Chicago's hospitals on the show as being separate from County.

Edited December 2, 2020 by doodlebug

[Heathen]

Season 6, Carter and his cousin's ex-wife. It's kind of icky, but then add in Carter getting into her business by asking Corday about her mastectomy. Creepy. 

Also, the whole Gabe Lawrence plot line. 

[Hava]

I found Carol so unpleasant that I am still dumbfounded that her character was saved because the viewers liked her so much. I'm like--WHERE??

Edited December 2, 2020 by Hava

[Bastet]

8 minutes ago, Hava said:

I found Carol so unpleasant that I am still dumbfounded that her character was saved because of the viewers like her so much. I'm like--WHERE??

I have always been completely at a loss as to what producers and test audiences found so compelling about her in the pilot that it was decided to keep her around rather than have her die as originally planned.  Liking Carol as the show went on, I understand, but whatever special something people got out of what we saw of her in the pilot I have never been able to see.

[Heathen]

20 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I have always been completely at a loss as to what producers and test audiences found so compelling about her in the pilot that it was decided to keep her around rather than have her die as originally planned.  Liking Carol as the show went on, I understand, but whatever special something people got out of what we saw of her in the pilot I have never been able to see.

Carol annoyed me pretty much all through her tenure on the show, then she irritated me when she returned in the last season. So did Doug Ross. 

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

Carol annoyed me pretty much all through her tenure on the show, then she irritated me when she returned in the last season. So did Doug Ross. 

I know it wasn't written that way, she did have a lot of pills, but I always thought the fan thing was hype and someone on the inside liked her and used that to switch the pills overdose script. (no proof but it was always a hunch I went with) No internet then like today and feedback not that fast.

I looked forward to seeing Doug and Carol again although felt the cameo should have been hearing about Greene earlier. I think what made it colder for me is Carol seemed aloof and Doug asking about who was left there he knew, seemed awkward. What would have helped IMHO was just showing a glimpse of the twins or a photo hanging on wall, maybe some reference to County in a kind way, but it was okay. The show had gotten so different by then, seeing old characters was nice.

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, Bastet said:

I have always been completely at a loss as to what producers and test audiences found so compelling about her in the pilot that it was decided to keep her around rather than have her die as originally planned.  Liking Carol as the show went on, I understand, but whatever special something people got out of what we saw of her in the pilot I have never been able to see.

I think it wasn't so much Carol as a character as it was the link to Doug and the scenes where he was obviously guilt stricken about her suicide attempt.  I think the fans and TPTB liked the notion of the angsty story of love gone wrong more than anything specific about Carol as a character.

I found her much more likable in the pilot than she was during the regular series.  I thought she had a pretty decent life, all things considered, and the constant complaining about the hand she had been dealt was ridiculous.

Also, once again injecting some real life stuff, Carol was a nurse manager of the ER at a large, big city hospital.   Nowadays, a nurse manager would receive a salary of around $80,00-100,000 which should not be tough for a single woman with no dependents to survive on.  So, presuming she made the 90's equivalent of that amount, what was she spending her money on that she missed 3 car payments in a row?  What huge debt did she have that she couldn't afford to pay for a car?  She's not the only one, ER liked to pretend that the doctors and nurses there were overworked and underpaid.  Nope, salaries are competitive with other local healthcare facilities or they couldn't find employees.  In addition, they get into the public employees retirement system which is better funded and more reliable than social security.  I worked for the county hospital in a large midwestern city in the early 90's.  I was in private practice for several years prior to that and the county job paid substantially more than my private sector job for basically the same work.  No way Mark ended up living in Susan's cramped apartment after his divorce except by choice.  He had no alimony, his child support payments should've been reasonable considering his ex was well able to support herself and her share of Rachel's expenses.  He would've been making low six figures at that point which should've afforded him an upper class lifestyle easily.

I think the show liked the idea of feisty medical professionals, fighting for better care for their patients while accepting substantially less income because they were just that altruistic and caring.  Nope.  

Edited December 2, 2020 by doodlebug

[Dr.OO7]

On 11/30/2020 at 2:09 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Benton was so hard on poor Gant because he assumed Gant was there because of affirmative action

I always thought that was more a misguided attempt at "tough love". That kind of bootcamp training is embraced in medicine regardless of race or gender. As hard as Benton was on Gant, I never thought that he genuinely thought that Gant was unintelligent or undeserving of his residency spot, he just truly believed that being a hard-as-nails instructor was the best way to teach him.

On 11/30/2020 at 2:09 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Susan was very jealous of Kerry.

I think it was the other way around. Kerry had that Inferiority Superiority Complex hardcore and she seemed to almost immediately target Susan, criticizing practically everything she did, hovering over her 24/7 and talking to her like she was an idiot.

[RedbirdNelly]

37 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I always thought that was more a misguided attempt at "tough love". That kind of bootcamp training is embraced in medicine regardless of race or gender. As hard as Benton was on Gant, I never thought that he genuinely thought that Gant was unintelligent or undeserving of his residency spot, he just truly believed that being a hard-as-nails instructor was the best way to teach him.

I think it was the other way around. Kerry had that Inferiority Superiority Complex hardcore and she seemed to almost immediately target Susan, criticizing practically everything she did, hovering over her 24/7 and talking to her like she was an idiot.

I always thought the same re Benton/Gant. I think Benton had concerns that Gant needed to toughen up and was trying to do that.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

No way Mark ended up living in Susan's cramped apartment after his divorce except by choice. 

It is kind of funny hearing different perspectives on things because I always thought that Susan's apartment was giant even by tv standards. It was had a huge living room big enough for Mark's dad's hospital bed. Plus at one point Susan and her sister living with her. It wasn't nice but it was way bigger than any apartment I had when I was single.

As for Mark living there I could buy that he saw it as a practical thing. Like he would say to himself why would I need a bigger more expensive place when I spend most of my time at the hospital. It wasn't until Elizabeth moved in and started pointing out the issues that he decided to move.

[Dr.OO7]

I caught "Random Acts" this morning.

That attack scene frightens me just as much today as it did 23 years ago.

On a lighter note, the book subplot was cute and I find it very amusing that Kerry nailed Doug's character--and his feelings for Carol--perfectly, despite them being mortal enemies.

I really wish they'd kept her Season 3 personality. She was still the straight man (so to speak) but they took the edge of her uber-irritating persona from the previous year.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

think the show liked the idea of feisty medical professionals, fighting for better care for their patients while accepting substantially less income because they were just that altruistic and caring.  Nope

I really hated how determined the show was to keep their doctors and nurses dirt poor.

I hate the Hospital Paradiso trope--making someone seem like a sellout or less of a doctor/lawyer/teacher, etc because they--GASP!--want a job with better pay and better hours. Shane on them for wanting to take it easy after years of grunt work for little pay! Shame on them for having a spouse/family they want to provide for and spend time with!

[doodlebug]

23 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I really hated how determined the show was to keep their doctors and nurses dirt poor.

I hate the Hospital Paradiso trope--making someone seem like a sellout or less of a doctor/lawyer/teacher, etc because they--GASP!--want a job with better pay and better hours. Shane on them for wanting to take it easy after years of grunt work for little pay! Shame on them for having a spouse/family they want to provide for and spend time with!

It bothered me, too, when the show acted like working in the ER was the height of dedicated medical practice and nothing else was quite as good.  Remember in the pilot when Mark interviewed at the private practice?  Forgetting for a moment that someone who has done an ER residency is not qualified to work in a regular medical office; the show acted like he would be selling out if he took a well paid job with 9-5 hours and perks like going to conferences out of town.  That doctors in private practice in an outpatient office aren't doing anything meaningful.  Some people like to work in the ER, but others do not have that inclination; it is not good or bad, just different.  

Same thing when Benton went to the suburbs and was going to be mainly doing outpatient surgeries like hernia repairs.  Once again, those surgeries need doing; people with hernias can have life threatening complications and they deserve care every bit as much as anyone in the ER.  They implied that he'd never do a major surgery again which is simply not the case and they acted like Benton was so busy as a trauma surgeon at County that he never did any of the more routine surgical procedures there.  While it's true that the show implied that major traumas arrive at the ER hourly, that is really not the case and docs trained as trauma surgeons spend much, if not most, of their time repairing hernias, removing gallbladers and the like.

[Hava]

7 hours ago, debraran said:

I know it wasn't written that way, she did have a lot of pills, but I always thought the fan thing was hype and someone on the inside liked her and used that to switch the pills overdose script. (no proof but it was always a hunch I went with) No internet then like today and feedback not that fast.

Could you explain this a bit more?

[Kel Varnsen]

16 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

surgeons spend much, if not most, of their time repairing hernias, removing gallbladers and the like.

Speaking of which do hospitals really deal with that many appendix surgeries. It seems there is an Appy like every few episodes, but I am in my 40s and I can't recall knowing anyone who has had their appendix removed. Is it really that common?

[doodlebug]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Speaking of which do hospitals really deal with that many appendix surgeries. It seems there is an Appy like every few episodes, but I am in my 40s and I can't recall knowing anyone who has had their appendix removed. Is it really that common?

It's one of the more common emergency general surgical procedures; a place like County would probably do half dozen or so a week.

[Heathen]

21 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

It bothered me, too, when the show acted like working in the ER was the height of dedicated medical practice and nothing else was quite as good.  Remember in the pilot when Mark interviewed at the private practice?  Forgetting for a moment that someone who has done an ER residency is not qualified to work in a regular medical office; the show acted like he would be selling out if he took a well paid job with 9-5 hours and perks like going to conferences out of town.  That doctors in private practice in an outpatient office aren't doing anything meaningful.  Some people like to work in the ER, but others do not have that inclination; it is not good or bad, just different.  

Same thing when Benton went to the suburbs and was going to be mainly doing outpatient surgeries like hernia repairs.  Once again, those surgeries need doing; people with hernias can have life threatening complications and they deserve care every bit as much as anyone in the ER.  They implied that he'd never do a major surgery again which is simply not the case and they acted like Benton was so busy as a trauma surgeon at County that he never did any of the more routine surgical procedures there.  While it's true that the show implied that major traumas arrive at the ER hourly, that is really not the case and docs trained as trauma surgeons spend much, if not most, of their time repairing hernias, removing gallbladers and the like.

ER did that with other specialties, too. I remember when Mark went upstairs to talk to Loretta's radiation oncologist, and that doc was leaving at what would be around the end of normal business hours. Mark made some snarky comment about the easy life of a radiation oncologist. Well, maybe he'd seen all his patients for the day. Maybe he had an appointment of his own. Maybe he was going to spend time with his family and not show up an hour late and inconvenience everyone else, like some people. 

2 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

It's one of the more common emergency general surgical procedures; a place like County would probably do half dozen or so a week.

At County General, of course, every appendectomy except for Benton's is wrought with complications and nearly ends in tragedy. /s 

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I caught "Random Acts" this morning.

That attack scene frightens me just as much today as it did 23 years ago.

On a lighter note, the book subplot was cute and I find it very amusing that Kerry nailed Doug's character--and his feelings for Carol--perfectly, despite them being mortal enemies.

I really wish they'd kept her Season 3 personality. She was still the straight man (so to speak) but they took the edge of her uber-irritating persona from the previous year.

I'm disappointed that they never really followed up with Kerry writing the hospital erotica novel. I thought that was a very fun subplot and it could have led to some interesting character development. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Hava said:

Could you explain this a bit more?

I just meant after just one show I felt the powers that be thought they’d like to keep her and do a Doug/ Carol relationship.Ratings were ok and they had to find a way to erase the pills a bit. They say fans changed their minds but I felt it was more an inside decision.I wish they listened more over the years to fans and maybe helicopters wouldn’t have fallen and other calamities!

Edited December 2, 2020 by debraran

[doodlebug]

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

ER did that with other specialties, too. I remember when Mark went upstairs to talk to Loretta's radiation oncologist, and that doc was leaving at what would be around the end of normal business hours. Mark made some snarky comment about the easy life of a radiation oncologist. Well, maybe he'd seen all his patients for the day. Maybe he had an appointment of his own. Maybe he was going to spend time with his family and not show up an hour late and inconvenience everyone else, like some people. 

At County General, of course, every appendectomy except for Benton's is wrought with complications and nearly ends in tragedy. /s 

ER often implied that the ER docs knew more about everything than everyone, even specialists.  How often did we see one of the ER docs attempt or recommend a medication or treatment only to have a specialist in that field arrive and be utterly stunned that the new medication or procedure worked?  And usually the specialist admitted to never having tried that particular approach themselves   Sometimes, they'd never even heard of it.  There is no way that an ER doc, no matter how dedicated and hardworking, is going to know more about the latest development than the specialists.

Since I am an OB/GYN, Love's Labor Lost resonated for me.  Recall that the baby got stuck in the birth canal, a complication called a shoulder dystocia.  Probably the biggest emergency in childbirth.  Mark does all of the usual things to try to get the baby delivered; even calling out the appropriate procedures and using the proper terminology.  In real life, except for a new graduate who had just taken their boards, I would be willing to wager that few, if any, ER docs would know the first thing to try, let alone the second, third and fourth.  In the end, Mark ends up delivering the baby by pushing the head back up into the vagina and performing a cesarean section.  This is called a Zavanelli maneuver and Mark even knew the name.  I have practiced OB/GYN for 34 years after a 4 year residency in the specialty.  I have delivered thousands of kids, and, yes, I have dealt with shoulder dystocias.  In those 38 years, I have never once performed a Zavanelli maneuver and I don't know anyone else who has, either.  When I took my board exams 30+years ago (a 3 hour oral exam in my specialty), one of the questions was about management of shoulder dystocia.  He asked what I would do first, second, third.  Each time, he'd say, 'that didn't work.  What's next?'  Finally, I got to the Zavanelli maneuver, which I then had to describe to him.  He asked me if I'd ever done one or knew of it being done anywhere I'd worked.  Nope, I hadn't.  He laughed and said 'Me neither.'  Yet Mark Greene knew the proper name and managed to do it properly and successfully delivered the baby.  No way.

I think LLL was the same episode in which Mark claimed that he'd done 200 deliveries as a resident.  Most ER residents do an OB rotation where they do maybe 20-30 deliveries.  As an OB intern, I did 162 vaginal births in the entire year, yet Mark, on a rotation that couldn't have been more than a month or two, managed to do far more than me.

Edited December 3, 2020 by doodlebug

[Growsonwalls]

9 hours ago, debraran said:

I just meant after just one show I felt the powers that be thought they’d like to keep her and do a Doug/ Carol relationship.Ratings were ok and they had to find a way to erase the pills a bit. They say fans changed their minds but I felt it was more an inside decision.I wish they listened more over the years to fans and maybe helicopters wouldn’t have fallen and other calamities!

Julianne Marguiles said in later years that George Clooney advocating for her saved her ER job because they were going to kill her off. She also apparently auditioned for Mark's wife Jen and was turned down. I think she and Clooney just had good chemistry so they kept her around as a love interest.

I guess Carol never bothered me that much? I didn't think she was this great heroine, but I could relate to her being a somewhat insecure, occasionally petty person who also had redeeming qualities. Maybe I just have a nostalgia for the shades of gray writing of the earlier seasons. 

[debraran]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Julianne Marguiles said in later years that George Clooney advocating for her saved her ER job because they were going to kill her off. She also apparently auditioned for Mark's wife Jen and was turned down. I think she and Clooney just had good chemistry so they kept her around as a love interest.

I guess Carol never bothered me that much? I didn't think she was this great heroine, but I could relate to her being a somewhat insecure, occasionally petty person who also had redeeming qualities. Maybe I just have a nostalgia for the shades of gray writing of the earlier seasons. 

Yes, I remember that too, it just sounded nice to say the fans saved her. It was in an interview years ago. I did like how she said she wouldn't do the cameos later because she thought Clooney wouldn't and he did. In many ways he didn't let his head get too big. She said she would love to do another show or movie with him recently. (I bet she would!) She loves how streaming ER on Hulu has her called "Carol" again by so many young fans.

I liked her more compared to Abby, I just don't understand why the writers spend so much time on this character and she is the only one for anyone to date or pine after. I just saw the show where Carter tells her after one bad road trip, he doesn't want to wish her and Luca ill but doesn't want to "be her friend". Ugh. I mean they never played Carter as Doug but there are many women and opportunities in Chicago and that hospital. The constant angst and sighing and running her hands threw her hair is monotonous to me and I find myself FF through many of her scenes. Carol might have made me annoyed, but I never wanted to skip scenes.

I watched  yesterday, the one when the guy who's kid was taken away from him from abuse, shoots so many people looking for his son and finally dies in the elevator with Mark. There was so much carnage and blood and sadness, death, paralysis and even cancer,  it was too much. I actually felt numb and wished it wasn't right before going to bed. In-between Cleo gets herself stuck with HIV tainted blood and it's like "who cares?" (although she showed no emotion either) 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by debraran

[Birdie]

Re: Carol. I just watched one of the eps of her “possibly going to med school” arc, and it begins with her snapping at her mother for being “dismissive” and not “encouraging her to dream” (or whatever) and not believing in her. But her mother didn’t say anything of the sort! Her mother cooked her breakfast, and I forget what she said, but it wasn’t anything remotely bad or dismissive. But Carol loses it, and yells, “You’re always doing that! Making me feel like I’m not good enough! Or I can’t do anything!” Like, uh, your mom didn’t say anything like that. 

I think this is also the same ep where she questions Doyle’s orders of giving a patient meds that will increase his cardiac output, but further impair his kidneys. It takes Doug to get her to do her job of carrying out the doctor‘s orders. Ok, yes, Carol, you took the MCAT and did well on it, but Doyle took them too AND actually completed med school. Carol was so jealous of Doyle being younger than her and from the same stomping grounds but having to take direction from her. 
 

Re: Ruby. It was a lot to put on Carter to take care of Ruby’s wife. Vucelich all bIt admitted at the beginning when they were discussing treatment and how one treatment will cause problems and them treating those problems will cause more that it would be futile. Then when Carter came to him, Vucelich likened Ruby’s wife to a sinking ship and Carter was rearranging the deck chairs. Well, he and Benton gave Carter no support. The two didn’t want to deal with her, so they pushed it onto a med student. Carter tried, and he even gave Ruby his pager number to contact him. And when Ruby pages him in the middle of the night (when he’s already not getting enough sleep because med school), he doesn’t try to rush him off the phone. He patiently listens to Ruby’s concerns.

Yes, Carter should’ve been more forthcoming and upfront and honest regarding Ruby’s wife, but he was a med student. I don’t think it all should’ve been put on him. And Carter tried to rectify his past mistake by being upfront and honest later about Ruby’s own treatment.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Birdie said:

Re: Carol. I just watched one of the eps of her “possibly going to med school” arc, and it begins with her snapping at her mother for being “dismissive” and not “encouraging her to dream” (or whatever) and not believing in her. But her mother didn’t say anything of the sort! Her mother cooked her breakfast, and I forget what she said, but it wasn’t anything remotely bad or dismissive. But Carol loses it, and yells, “You’re always doing that! Making me feel like I’m not good enough! Or I can’t do anything!” Like, uh, your mom didn’t say anything like that. 

I think this is also the same ep where she questions Doyle’s orders of giving a patient meds that will increase his cardiac output, but further impair his kidneys. It takes Doug to get her to do her job of carrying out the doctor‘s orders. Ok, yes, Carol, you took the MCAT and did well on it, but Doyle took them too AND actually completed med school. Carol was so jealous of Doyle being younger than her and from the same stomping grounds but having to take direction from her. 
 

Re: Ruby. It was a lot to put on Carter to take care of Ruby’s wife. Vucelich all bIt admitted at the beginning when they were discussing treatment and how one treatment will cause problems and them treating those problems will cause more that it would be futile. Then when Carter came to him, Vucelich likened Ruby’s wife to a sinking ship and Carter was rearranging the deck chairs. Well, he and Benton gave Carter no support. The two didn’t want to deal with her, so they pushed it onto a med student. Carter tried, and he even gave Ruby his pager number to contact him. And when Ruby pages him in the middle of the night (when he’s already not getting enough sleep because med school), he doesn’t try to rush him off the phone. He patiently listens to Ruby’s concerns.

Yes, Carter should’ve been more forthcoming and upfront and honest regarding Ruby’s wife, but he was a med student. I don’t think it all should’ve been put on him. And Carter tried to rectify his past mistake by being upfront and honest later about Ruby’s own treatment.

We also saw Carter try to be frank with Ruby about his wife's condition several times, only to have Ruby ignore him and rattle on and on about how she was going to dance again, etc.  There are people out there like Ruby who only hear what they want to hear and then blame others when their fantasy doesn't come true.

[readster]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

We also saw Carter try to be frank with Ruby about his wife's condition several times, only to have Ruby ignore him and rattle on and on about how she was going to dance again, etc.  There are people out there like Ruby who only hear what they want to hear and then blame others when their fantasy doesn't come true.

Right it also goes back to Mark's situation with the kid who they thought was a gang member. Then turned out he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everyone kept going at Mark that it was his fault things happened up to how the kid "magically sneaking" in the bathroom and just waiting for him to be alone. How the lawyer just made the lawsuit go away when after Mark was pretty much beaten to death would have had the case dropped there. The judge would have been: "Yet, someone kicked the shit out of Dr. Greene, and you have no idea who did that do you sir/mame?" "Case kicked out over everyone being stupid!"