All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

What ridiculous kind of hospital treats a patient with the family, and wandering other people standing in the trauma room while they work?   

The episode where Corday needs to talk to a patient's husband, she's operating on the wife, so they bring the husband to the OR observation room is totally absurd.    

Nowadays, it happens a lot.  People bring their entire family and friends with them to the hospital and they all hang around, wandering in and out.  The hospital where I used to deliver babies now permits anyone and everyone to be present throughout the labor and delivery.  No limits are placed on the number of people who can be in the room, even if it means having so many people there that it is difficult for the medical personnel to perform their jobs in an emergency.  Why?  Because everyone gets a patient satisfaction survey when they go home and are asked to comment on what was good and what wasn't during their stay.  For maternity patients anyway, the biggest complaint was that they couldn't have as many visitors as they wanted in the room including at the birth.  The second most common complaints were about stuff like their family and friends should've been given free food while there, that the hospital Wifi wasn't fast enough, that the flat screen TV's in the patient rooms were not large enough.  I kid you not.  Absolutely true.  The problem is that insurers, including those with Medicare and Medicaid, look at those scores when they are deciding which hospitals are in their plan/how much they get paid.  It doesn't matter what the complaint was or whether it was medically based or not.  Time and time again, patients  completing hospital surveys complain about stuff like visitors and food; not about the quality of care.  They want to be catered to and almost all the complaint cards are filled with stuff like requests for better electronics or jacuzzi tubs or more comfortable beds; even hotel type rooms so multiple visitors can spend the night.  I had a patient who complained that she was not given the biggest room on the postpartum floor because someone else was in it.  Apparently, she had visited someone in that room once, told the nurses she wanted it and felt that the other patient should be moved elsewhere since she had requested it.  These days, hospitals have been forced to accommodate the lowest common denominator in order to stay solvent.

In the OR, observation decks are not common at all, even in County hospitals and teaching facilities.  I've worked in at least a dozen big time hospitals over 35+ years and have never seen one.  I have certainly called out to the waiting area to speak to a family member one the phone to let them know when something unusual has been encountered or it is taking longer than expected.  I suppose on ER they put everyone in the same space because it looks better onscreen than using a split screen for a phone call.

These days, families are also brought into the room when a loved one is being coded.  It has been discovered that families are better able to accept the death, have fewer regrets, are more grateful and understanding of the caregivers' efforts when they are allowed to watch.  It is a little disquieting at first and extremely sad at times; but I think it helps us as caregivers, too.  It's also heartbreaking in my line of work where the person being coded is a young mother or an infant.

[txhorns79]

One thing that I do roll my eyes at is when a regular character breaks up with a recurring guest star, we will then later find out the guest star has quit their job at County never to be heard from again.  I get why this happens, as they have to explain why this character who was there suddenly has vanished forever, but it seems like ER relies too much on that as a plot device.  The poor chaplain quits and goes off to Nepal!

[Growsonwalls]

Just watched the last two episodes of Season 3. I agree that this was maybe the best season of ER. Certainly the most consistent in that every episode was very good, there weren't many duds, and each storyline arc was compelling. 

I liked the introduction of Maria Bello's character. I wish she had stayed longer on the show.

"Make a Wish" is such a wonderful episode. Peter Benton worrying over his premature son was so touching. I still don't get how a guy like Benton could have gotten mixed up with someone like Carla but that's neither here nor there. 

Also of all the Carol/Doug moments them singing "Hello Muddah Hello Faddah" to the little kid has to be the most adorable. Of course it foreshadowed them getting together in the final episode of the season but that little segment showed why they're right for each other. Of all the things that keep (or don't keep) couples together I think work ethic is a really underrated but important factor. Carol and Doug both show a complete commitment to their work and in the final season when they were in Seattle they were still working together as a team, partners in work as well as life.

And amid these two heartwarming stories there was another really lovely Kerry moment. Her telling the ER staff to give Mark a "light load" on his first day back and then her talking to him and saying that whether it was a patient's family that attacked him or not, it was a "random act of violence" and not justified was such a kind talk. I also loved how Mark was the worst patient. Doctors normally are. I also loved Kerry's disapproval of Jeanie getting back together with Al.

The season finale wasn't at the same level. I of course loved seeing Carol and Doug get together finally, but that Charlie storyline was so tiresome. I've said this before but I don't think Doug is stupid enough to help a girl after she robbed both him and Carol, robbed Carol's mom, accused Doug of rape, etc. The fact that he spent hours looking on the street for her after she again ran away from the ER just doesn't seem believable.

I also didn't think Carter's insistence on switching residencies was that believable. Him working for a year for free was not that believable, even if his family is Mr. Moneybags. 

But overall, great season.

[Bastet]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I liked the introduction of Maria Bello's character. I wish she had stayed longer on the show.

There's something about Maria Bello that I always really like in the several things I've seen her in.  I liked Anna a lot, and she was the only one of Carter's love interests/potential love interests where I liked the relationship.  I, too, wish she'd stayed longer, in general, and because I'd have liked to see the continued evolution of their relationship, as they dealt with the fallout of his faux poverty stunt.

7 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I still don't get how a guy like Benton could have gotten mixed up with someone like Carla but that's neither here nor there. 

Carla as originally written, not as retconned into every racist and sexist stereotype foisted on black women on TV, is not at all a "someone like her" character to me.  And don't they know each other from the neighborhood or something?

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, Bastet said:

There's something about Maria Bello that I always really like in the several things I've seen her in.  I liked Anna a lot, and she was the only one of Carter's love interests/potential love interests where I liked the relationship.  I, too, wish she'd stayed longer, in general, and because I'd have liked to see the continued evolution of their relationship, as they dealt with the fallout of his faux poverty stunt.

I think it's because in everything I've seen her in she's been able to convey a character who is as tough as nails but also warm and likable. That's a hard balance to get and she gets it better than many actresses. I also agree that her romance with Carter was interesting, and better than all the other Carter romances. 

I have no idea how true this is but I have heard that Noah Wyle was not that nice to his female co-stars and this is why Carter ran through so many romances in his years at County General. I forgot which actress it was who said that he was just unfriendly to work with. Was it Kellie Martin (Lucy)?

[Heathen]

I just realized that Paul Sobriki played Wednesday Addams's boyfriend, Joel, in Addams Family Values. I've seen the Sobriki episodes so many times, and I always knew that I knew his voice from somewhere. Finally! 

[doodlebug]

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

I just realized that Paul Sobriki played Wednesday Addams's boyfriend, Joel, in Addams Family Values. I've seen the Sobriki episodes so many times, and I always knew that I knew his voice from somewhere. Finally! 

He's also Bernard, the elf in The Santa Clause which is even more incongruous

 

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think it's because in everything I've seen her in she's been able to convey a character who is as tough as nails but also warm and likable. That's a hard balance to get and she gets it better than many actresses. I also agree that her romance with Carter was interesting, and better than all the other Carter romances. 

I have no idea how true this is but I have heard that Noah Wyle was not that nice to his female co-stars and this is why Carter ran through so many romances in his years at County General. I forgot which actress it was who said that he was just unfriendly to work with. Was it Kellie Martin (Lucy)?

Yes, Kellie Martin complained that NW was mean to her and he later acknowledged that and expressed regret for his behavior.  Apparently, NW wasn't given any input into the storyline when an actress was hired to play his major love interest.  Since it was season 5, the show was top of the ratings and NW was a big part of that and felt he deserved a voice.  As I recall, his objections were that KM looked so young and that Carter would never go after a student since it was against the rules.

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

There's something about Maria Bello that I always really like in the several things I've seen her in.  I liked Anna a lot, and she was the only one of Carter's love interests/potential love interests where I liked the relationship.  I, too, wish she'd stayed longer, in general, and because I'd have liked to see the continued evolution of their relationship, as they dealt with the fallout of his faux poverty stunt.

Carla as originally written, not as retconned into every racist and sexist stereotype foisted on black women on TV, is not at all a "someone like her" character to me.  And don't they know each other from the neighborhood or something?

Original recipe Carla was feisty and sassy and also a successful business woman who owned her own restaurant.  We first met her at a 4th of July barbecue at Jackie's where she seemed to know everyone and was part of the group.  She commented that Peter hadn't come into her restaurant recently and he told her he'd become a vegetarian.  If only TPTB had been consistent with Carla's character, but, the minute she got pregnant with Reese, she changed completely.

[RedbirdNelly]

I watched the episode season 15 when Carter shows back up. I've got to say I was just happy knowing he was back. Carter's not perfect but I'd missed him. And it was nice when he catches up with Morris in action and tells him "you listened to me. You set the tone."

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

 

Original recipe Carla was feisty and sassy and also a successful business woman who owned her own restaurant.  We first met her at a 4th of July barbecue at Jackie's where she seemed to know everyone and was part of the group.  She commented that Peter hadn't come into her restaurant recently and he told her he'd become a vegetarian.  If only TPTB had been consistent with Carla's character, but, the minute she got pregnant with Reese, she changed completely.

Agree with the above. I wish they had stuck with Original Recipe Carla. It's not like she was boring or something; there was a lot to work with plot-wise without changing her.

If any medically knowledgeable posters could scroll back to page 65 (towards the bottom) and address my heart virus question, I'd appreciate it!

[doodlebug]

On 8/28/2018 at 11:23 AM, RedbirdNelly said:

I watched another season 15 episode (one where Morris ends up dressing up as a superhero to try to impress his police officer/detective girlfriend). I have a question for all medically-knowledgeable posters--in that episode a mom (who actually is the aunt) crashes her car into the ambulance bay and turns out her heart is "all scar tissue" because some virus attacked her heart---Dr. Brenner says maybe you had a cold in the last 12 months. . . and that this is rare.

My question is--how rare is this exactly? how often does a person catch a simple virus and end up in heart failure? my oldest is currently fighting a cold and never occurred to me I might should add "hope he doesn't develop a heart condition" to my list of worries.  Would you have any inkling that this virus is going hard core before your heart is a gonner?

on the topic of the episode Neela and Brenner continue their romance which I must say I don't buy. Not compelling. I forgot this happened in the last few episodes of the show.

Viral cardiomyopathy is pretty rare but it occurs most commonly in kids and young adults. It usually starts as a regular cold that lingers; eventually progressing to chronic cough, shortness of breath and fluid retention.  It is not common though and not everyone who gets it ends up needing a transplant, most recover and are fine.

[Growsonwalls]

Speaking of Maria Bello, I never really got the "Doug is an ass to Anna" storyline. That conflict didn't seem organic. I think the point was that Doug was a bit territorial about the pediatric division, but it wasn't really consistent with Doug's personality. Doug is more of a pain in the ass to the higher-ups. Doug being mean and condescending to a pretty young doctor just doesn't make much sense.  

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Speaking of Maria Bello, I never really got the "Doug is an ass to Anna" storyline. That conflict didn't seem organic. I think the point was that Doug was a bit territorial about the pediatric division, but it wasn't really consistent with Doug's personality. Doug is more of a pain in the ass to the higher-ups. Doug being mean and condescending to a pretty young doctor just doesn't make much sense.  

I never thought that he was. ANNA is the one who had a problem with HIM, taking basically EVERYTHING he said or did as either a sexist putdown or an attempt at getting her into bed. For all his womanizing ways, he was not a harasser, nor someone with the attitude that women were less than men.

You're right that it wasn't organic. The two of them seemed to get along fine initially (enough that there was some speculation that they were going to get together). Literally out of nowhere, she's flipping out if he says "Hello" or "Good morning" to her.

In my mind, she was initially interested in him, but after asking around about his availability, found out about his reputation and decided she needed to be on guard against him, but she just came off as paranoid and defensive.

I had no idea NW was initially mean to KM. That makes all the scenes of Carter being a jerk to Lucy and KM's decision to leave the show pretty harsh in hindsight.

[Growsonwalls]

24 minutes ago, Camille said:

I never thought that he was. ANNA is the one who had a problem with HIM, taking basically EVERYTHING he said or did as either a sexist putdown or an attempt at getting her into bed. For all his womanizing ways, he was not a harasser, nor someone with the attitude that women were less than men.

You're right that it wasn't organic. The two of them seemed to get along fine initially (enough that there was some speculation that they were going to get together). Literally out of nowhere, she's flipping out if he says "Hello" or "Good morning" to her.

In my mind, she was initially interested in him, but after asking around about his availability, found out about his reputation and decided she needed to be on guard against him, but she just came off as paranoid and defensive.

Well in the third season finale episode they even scour the streets together looking for Charlie and Doug asks her out to eat and she asks whether it's to just "eat" or whether it will be a one night stand. And Doug because he wanted to make a beeline for Carol to cockblock Carol's date with Toby gently turned Anna down. But it was all very friendly and collegial and i thought it was nice that Doug was relating to pretty young women in a professional way.

But by the fourth season Anna's ready to scratch his eyes out. It never made sense to me.

[Heathen]

In one episode, Anna called Doug out for calling her by her first name in front of a patient. I don't remember the title of the episode, although I clearly remember the conversation. Maybe that had something to do with it. 

[Dr.OO7]

33 minutes ago, Heathen said:

In one episode, Anna called Doug out for calling her by her first name in front of a patient. I don't remember the title of the episode, although I clearly remember the conversation. Maybe that had something to do with it. 

But even that was unreasonable. It was an honest mistake, one that he apologized for, assured her that he meant nothing improper and even said, "I call Mark by his first name all the time." As in, a male doctor, ergo, I'm not being a sexist jerk.

And her response is to snap, "Well, that's wrong too!"

Any empathy I may have had evaporated with her bitchy response and refusal to accept his apology/explanation.

40 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Well in the third season finale episode they even scour the streets together looking for Charlie and Doug asks her out to eat and she asks whether it's to just "eat" or whether it will be a one night stand. And Doug because he wanted to make a beeline for Carol to cockblock Carol's date with Toby gently turned Anna down. But it was all very friendly and collegial and i thought it was nice that Doug was relating to pretty young women in a professional way.

But by the fourth season Anna's ready to scratch his eyes out. It never made sense to me

Isn't it ironic that the one thing that he said/did that could have construed as an advance, she handled perfectly appropriately, yet afterwards she went ballistic anytime he talked to her.

And while I don't agree with Carter's lie by omission regarding his wealth, I can't say that I blame him either, given her self-righteous hostility towards rich people. 

And her HAIR. For crying out loud, woman, comb it properly! Those ends she always had sticking out drove me crazy.

On a positive note, I absolutely love the fourth season for Doug and Carol's relationship. It was nice to see them just enjoying being together after all the melodrama. My favorite scene is the matter-of-fact way he tells her he loves her before heading off to settle his father's affairs.

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Camille said:

But even that was unreasonable. It was an honest mistake, one that he apologized for, assured her that he meant nothing improper and even said, "I call Mark by his first name all the time." As in, a male doctor, ergo, I'm not being a sexist jerk.

And her response is to snap, "Well, that's wrong too!"

Any empathy I may have had evaporated with her bitchy response and refusal to accept his apology/explanation.

I saw both sides of the issue. I don't remember Doug calling Mark by his first name in front of patients, but Anna shouldn't have snapped at him. She did have a tendency to get defensive, didn't she? I've always wondered if the character was written that way, or if Maria Bello was just a bad actress on a level with Michael Michele. 

 

I've been listening to the Amanda Lee episodes. How ludicrous that she conned her way into a professional position, and nobody checked her credentials or caught on! Also, why is Carol, a nurse, wearing dress pants and a button-down dress shirt on the job? Those falsehoods are one thing that always drove me nuts about ER. 

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, Camille said:

But even that was unreasonable. It was an honest mistake, one that he apologized for, assured her that he meant nothing improper and even said, "I call Mark by his first name all the time." As in, a male doctor, ergo, I'm not being a sexist jerk.

And her response is to snap, "Well, that's wrong too!"

Any empathy I may have had evaporated with her bitchy response and refusal to accept his apology/explanation.

I wonder how she would have felt had she saw the Carter/Benton interactions, because Benton shouting "Carter!" became almost iconic. 

I agree Carol and Doug are very cute in Season 4, although watching them grow closer and closer in Season 3 was also wonderful. Poor Dr. Toby though. Three dates, no kiss, no invite inside, and Carol probably ghosted him as she obviously jumped into bed with Doug the minute after her date with Toby.

[Dr.OO7]

2 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I've been listening to the Amanda Lee episodes. How ludicrous that she conned her way into a professional position, and nobody checked her credentials or caught on

That was one of the worst, stupidest stories in the show's history. It was downright embarrassing. And when it was done, was there any mention of the huge public humiliation a hospital would likely face from such an error? Or the lawsuits from people who were treated by this fake doctor? Especially since Elizabeth mentioned that a patient had died under hers and Lee's care. 

[Heathen]

3 minutes ago, Camille said:

That was one of the worst, stupidest stories in the show's history. It was downright embarrassing. And when it was done, was there any mention of the huge public humiliation a hospital would likely face from such an error? Or the lawsuits from people who were treated by this fake doctor? Especially since Elizabeth mentioned that a patient had died under hers and Lee's care. 

I actually liked Amanda Lee, before all the BS started coming out. I would have enjoyed seeing her character develop, if she hadn't been a total fraud. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

How ludicrous that she conned her way into a professional position, and nobody checked her credentials or caught on

I think they said she had stolen another doctor's credentials, and faked her way through a residency program to eventually become qualified enough to be the ER Chief.  It didn't really make a lot of sense.  

[RedbirdNelly]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think they said she had stolen another doctor's credentials, and faked her way through a residency program to eventually become qualified enough to be the ER Chief.  It didn't really make a lot of sense.  

that's correct. There have been real life cases as people posing as trained medical professionals and only getting caught after treating real patients. So it's far fetched but it's not like something similar hasn't happened (though it's not normally someone running an ER)

[Growsonwalls]

Ok just watched "Friendly Fire" and what a weird episode in terms of continuity. 

First of all, an ambulance explodes in front of the ER but the only aftermath we see is people breezily saying "thank god no one was hurt." Like there was just a huge explosion and everyone barely notices it?

Second of all, the Doug/Carol storyline had continuity issues too. In the beginning it seems as if Doug drives Carol to the train station so they can arrive at work "separately" and then I assume Carol either takes the train home or Carol takes the train to a spot and then Doug picks her up. But after their little spat about Corday why is Doug waiting for Carol at the train station? I assume they both took the subway back to Carol's place? What happened to Doug's car? 

Also I know Carter is rich but him not knowing how to use a laundromat was too much for me. I assume he went to college and lived in a dorm. No way he doesn't know how to do laundry.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Bastet]

18 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I assume he went to college and lived in a dorm. No way he doesn't know how to do laundry.

He may have lived at home in college, just like in med school (it's a full-service mansion with parents who are gone much of the time).  Or in a swanky condo.  I don't see John Carter in a dorm (and schools didn't force freshman to live in dorms back then - thank the gods).  He wouldn't still be such a sheltered rich kid when we meet him if he'd had the "typical" college experience.

[txhorns79]

Quote

that's correct. There have been real life cases as people posing as trained medical professionals and only getting caught after treating real patients. So it's far fetched but it's not like something similar hasn't happened (though it's not normally someone running an ER)

For me, just given how quickly she seemed to fall apart when Mark started asking follow up questions, I seriously doubt this woman could have made it through a residency program.

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

For me, just given how quickly she seemed to fall apart when Mark started asking follow up questions, I seriously doubt this woman could have made it through a residency program.

Her storyline did come to a rather abrupt ending. The PTB could have stretched it out a lot longer had they wanted to really make a story out of it. "Dr." Lee went from being a great doctor and coworker to being a total fraud and exposed nutcase in about an episode and a half. 

[starri]

7 hours ago, Camille said:

But even that was unreasonable. It was an honest mistake, one that he apologized for, assured her that he meant nothing improper and even said, "I call Mark by his first name all the time." As in, a male doctor, ergo, I'm not being a sexist jerk.

And her response is to snap, "Well, that's wrong too!"

Any empathy I may have had evaporated with her bitchy response and refusal to accept his apology/explanation.

See, I hate some of the hierarchical stuff in medicine.  I actually really hate that the culture within my department is formal enough that the med students and nursing staff and social workers have to call me "Dr [Last Name]."  I encourage everyone to use "Dr [First Letter of Last Name]," which is reasonably tolerable and also helpful because it's somehow easier for the patients to remember.  I actually have a stock speech with med students on their first day that involves the phrase "...but I lost that battle."

But yeah, don't call me anything but "Dr" in front of patients.

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, Camille said:

But even that was unreasonable. It was an honest mistake, one that he apologized for, assured her that he meant nothing improper and even said, "I call Mark by his first name all the time." As in, a male doctor, ergo, I'm not being a sexist jerk.

Calling a colleague who is his best friend, a professional equal, and another man by his first name in front of a patient is its own issue, but doing it to a woman who is a rung or two below him on the professional ladder is even worse, with larger implications, and that he engages in the former is not remotely an excuse against doing the latter.  Good on her for standing up for herself rather than giving him a pass.

[Growsonwalls]

I'm now binge-watching Season 4 and up to "Good Touch Bad Touch." I really dislike the way this Mark storyline is going. I can understand Mark being traumatized by the attack, depressed by the divorce and rattled by the lawsuit. But nothing about Mark's personality would suggest he'd ever be an irresponsible doctor even if he was going through all those things. This chain-smoking, tv-watching, sleeping through shifts Mark is not one that's consistent with the character. I also dislike this storyline with Cynthia. Yet another half-hearted failed romance with Mark who can't even get a boner.

With that being said "When the Bough Breaks" was a great episode. I love those episodes where everyone starts off bitchy and sniping at each other, an emergency brings those petty quarrels to a fault, and then as soon as the emergency is over people are sniping at each other again. I do wish they'd gotten a more realistic looking baby for Doris the crackhead mom. That baby looked like a plastic doll from the word go.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, starri said:

But yeah, don't call me anything but "Dr" in front of patients.

 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Calling a colleague who is his best friend, a professional equal, and another man by his first name in front of a patient is its own issue, but doing it to a woman who is a rung or two below him on the professional ladder is even worse, with larger implications, and that he engages in the former is not remotely an excuse against doing the latter.  Good on her for standing up for herself rather than giving him a pass.

I'm not saying she wasn't right, per se. I haven't liked it when people have slipped up and called me by my first name, or last (for some reason, among the staff, we all took to calling each other by our last names with no prefix) either, but I never reacted as badly as she did, either.

[Growsonwalls]

You know it's hard to remember that back then the NBC Thursday lineup had both Friends and ER. 

In retrospect which show do you think has held up better? I think they both have held up remarkably well. Friends I think was able to maintain more consistency throughout its run -- ER really dropped off after all the main original characters left the show. 

On the other hand when I watch Friends reruns I laugh a lot, but when I'm binge-watching ER I'm reminded of how much love I had for these characters. I LOVED Benton, Carter, Carol, Doug, Mark, Jeanie, and the supporting characters like Jerry, Malik, Morgerstern. 

[Heathen]

20 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

You know it's hard to remember that back then the NBC Thursday lineup had both Friends and ER. 

In retrospect which show do you think has held up better? I think they both have held up remarkably well. Friends I think was able to maintain more consistency throughout its run -- ER really dropped off after all the main original characters left the show. 

On the other hand when I watch Friends reruns I laugh a lot, but when I'm binge-watching ER I'm reminded of how much love I had for these characters. I LOVED Benton, Carter, Carol, Doug, Mark, Jeanie, and the supporting characters like Jerry, Malik, Morgerstern. 

*Friends was always pretty unrealistic, but in a fantasy kind of way (young adults who live in great apartments in Greenwich Village but don't apparently work all that much). ER was unrealistic, but in a more everyday people kind of way (the various shenanigans in the hospital itself, Carol's should-have-been-condemned house, the overwrought personal dramas). 

*The characters on Friends never changed all that much -- Joey was always a womanizer, Monica a little uptight, and so on. The characters on ER evolved, and there were so many new characters that even halfway through the series' run, it didn't feel like the same show. 

*Friends was a comedy in every sense. What was the most depressing longterm storyline on Friends -- Ross and Rachel? On ER, the sad longterm storylines involved deaths and Abby's family. Even the happier storylines, like the baby ones, on ER didn't last that long. Little Susie's lasted a year. Ella's lasted longer but was very much a sideline. Joe's lasted a year or so, but it was after the show became a parody of itself. 

 

Tl; dr -- the two shows were apples and oranges, but I miss them both.  I've never been a big TV watcher, but I tried to never miss those shows, Law & Order, and SVU. 

[debraran]

For whatever reason, I always hated when Abby told Carter (when he was going to propose) that she didn't think people could change (and he shouldn't expect her too) It was like she didn't want to try to change her less perfect traits which is her prerogative, but also a way not to be responsible for them either. I couldn't picture Carter saying that.   While sick recently, I binged on The Good Wife and saw a lot of ER character, Gallant, also a soldier, and a few others. Then there was Maura Tierney...and one of her first lines with a smile and tilt of her head was "I don't think people can change".  Even my daughter caught it and said, Abby's on Good Wife and she still hasn't changed. ; )

[starri]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

In retrospect which show do you think has held up better? I think they both have held up remarkably well. 

Even when it was running, Friends was really criticized for its utter lack of diversity.  It's even more glaring now.  

And a lot of it is homophobic AF.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Even when it was running, Friends was really criticized for its utter lack of diversity.  It's even more glaring now.  

And a lot of it is homophobic AF.

I think both shows had their issues.  I always thought of Friends as more fantasy based, so it's harder to criticize it's lack of diversity, if only because I never thought the show was supposed to represent reality. 

With ER, they had a very diverse cast, but some of the storylines would just be cringe inducing now.  Even watching some of the later seasons, Romano and Frank's comments about women and gay people are horrifying, and would realistically be fire-able offenses, even if you overall like the characters.  And I still remain baffled by whomever made the decision to sex Neela's character up with much heavier make up, better hair and a dream sequence where she appears to walk naked through the ER for no real reason.  And why would she be in the lockeroom with the orthopods while they are changing clothes?  So essentially, I like that they don't shy away from her being a romantic lead in the show, but thought they chose an odd way to go about things.       

[starri]

36 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Even watching some of the later seasons, Romano and Frank's comments about women and gay people are horrifying

But Romano and Frank weren’t the only characters. The stuff about Ross’ ex and Chandler’s father came from all six of the Friends. 

And I’ve been racking my brain, and aside from Julie, I can’t think of a love interest one of the characters had that wasn’t white. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

And I’ve been racking my brain, and aside from Julie, I can’t think of a love interest one of the characters had that wasn’t white. 

I want to say in one of the later seasons, Ross dates Aisha Tyler for a number of episodes. 

Quote

But Romano and Frank weren’t the only characters.

 

True.  I guess I just think of them as the worst offenders.  Heck, with Romano I think his harassment of Elizabeth in the earlier seasons was terrible.  

[Growsonwalls]

1 hour ago, starri said:

But Romano and Frank weren’t the only characters. The stuff about Ross’ ex and Chandler’s father came from all six of the Friends. 

And I’ve been racking my brain, and aside from Julie, I can’t think of a love interest one of the characters had that wasn’t white. 

Didn't Ross date an Asian girl for awhile? And yes I agree about the lack of diversity in Friends, especially as it took place in NYC which is VERY diverse. Can't believe they didn't even have a super who was Hispanic. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[doodlebug]

15 hours ago, Bastet said:

He may have lived at home in college, just like in med school (it's a full-service mansion with parents who are gone much of the time).  Or in a swanky condo.  I don't see John Carter in a dorm (and schools didn't force freshman to live in dorms back then - thank the gods).  He wouldn't still be such a sheltered rich kid when we meet him if he'd had the "typical" college experience.

We learned he attended Penn for undergrad, so he couldn't have lived at home.  Maybe he sent his laundry out?  Still doesn't make much sense, I know a couple of people who come from Carter-type wealthy backgrounds and they have certainly done their own laundry in college or even when living out on their own as a young person.  Carter shared an apartment with Gant and had his own place in a rather typical older building in Chicago when he was an intern (Eileen Brennan was his landlord and burned it down while smoking).  Neither of those places would've had accommodations for servants and most likely had public laundry rooms.  Did he haul his dirty clothes out to Gamma at the manse?  Send them in a cab?  I agree, it made no sense that he didn't even know how to sort his clothes.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Didn't Ross date an Asian girl for awhile? And yes I agree about the lack of diversity in Friends, especially as it took place in NYC which is VERY diverse. Can't believe they didn't even have a super who was Hispanic. 

 

On friends, Ross dated a Chinese-American woman he met while doing some sort of paleontology work in China.  And, yes, it made no sense that none of their coworkers, neighbors, school mates or other friends were not non-Caucasian.

I think that both shows demonstrate how much times have changed and how neither one of them would be able to get away with the lack of diversity and the racist/sexist stuff these days.  At the time, both shows were pretty mainstream and considered to be fairly inoffensive.    Times really have changed for the better,  not good enough yet, but better.

As someone who did their medical school and residency in the 80's, the sorts of racist/sexist stuff we saw on ER rang very true to me.  I don't know any women who did med school or residency in my era who couldn't cite multiple incidents where they were treated disrespectfully and, if they complained, were told they weren't tough enough, didn't have a sense of humor, etc.  It might seem unbelievable now, but I was there and you can believe it.  I could cite 5 personal experiences right off the top of my head that would be as bad or worse than anything on ER.

[doodlebug]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

For me, just given how quickly she seemed to fall apart when Mark started asking follow up questions, I seriously doubt this woman could have made it through a residency program.

I don't think she did a residency.  I think she totally scammed some guy's credentials including his residency.  There have been instances where individuals have done this; there was a movie with Leo DiCaprio based on a true story.  There are some very bright people out there who are able to pick up a lot on the fly and have managed to pose as doctors, including at teaching centers like County.  Nowadays with the internet and photo ID and even fingerprinting of employees; it's harder to get away with it, but it has happened.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I don't think she did a residency.  I think she totally scammed some guy's credentials including his residency.  There have been instances where individuals have done this; there was a movie with Leo DiCaprio based on a true story.  There are some very bright people out there who are able to pick up a lot on the fly and have managed to pose as doctors, including at teaching centers like County.  Nowadays with the internet and photo ID and even fingerprinting of employees; it's harder to get away with it, but it has happened.

In the episode where she is found out, Greene says she stole a real doctor's medical school transcripts to get into a residency program.   

[doodlebug]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

In the episode where she is found out, Greene says she stole a real doctor's medical school transcripts to get into a residency program.   

OK, it would be harder to fake her way through a residency because there is so much more scrutiny than in private practice.  Also, even back in the dark ages when I went to medical school and did a residency; we had to send photographs to the schools and residency with signatures from our current school verifying our identity.  Same thing taking board exams.  It would've been tough to get a verified photo to apply to a residency, but I suppose somebody determined enough would find a way.

[debraran]

Romano was a stereotype of guys who did what he did on ER, but underneath, he had a heart. Lizzy's character wouldn't love him if he didn't. When he made fun of her pregnancy or losing her ring, and then finds the ring and orders her food, it was a balance. Sometimes I agree, it was cringe-worthy.

For diversity,  it did well in some areas, but watching it as a younger white woman and watching it again later, with my bi-racial twins, it was another series in some ways. The constant influx of black gangsters as patients was a bit overboard, sure they had white patients that weren't saints, but the majority of black patients had issues. One daughter said once, "People of color have children who aren't abused, have life threatening illness's, have thoughtful spouses who care about them, why aren't more minorities just normal patients?" She liked Jeanie but again, she had to have AIDS, a young white woman couldn't, no matter how much they slept around, but overall, it was nice to see Peter and other minority nurses and doctor's on TV. I found it offensive when Simon Brenner tells a black nurse/med student he slept with how bad she was in bed, no reason really, and her face was so hurt. I never got the writers reasoning for that since it was isolated.  Haleh was always there, a nurse like Carol but almost seemed like background at times, even one story about a sick family member would have been nice. And maybe if they left out an insulting line about her having too many kids. (4)

All in all, they did better than most but it was interesting for me to see it with different eyes later, when outside my bubble of youth and limited experiences.

Edited August 31, 2018 by debraran

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

We learned he attended Penn for undergrad, so he couldn't have lived at home.  Maybe he sent his laundry out?  Still doesn't make much sense, I know a couple of people who come from Carter-type wealthy backgrounds and they have certainly done their own laundry in college or even when living out on their own as a young person.  Carter shared an apartment with Gant and had his own place in a rather typical older building in Chicago when he was an intern (Eileen Brennan was his landlord and burned it down while smoking). 

I'd assume he lived off-campus and, yes, sent his laundry out during college.  I don't remember whether the apartments he had or shared were prior Anna's time; I know in the beginning of the show he lived at home (where staff would do the laundry), and then somewhere in there he moved out.  Ultimately, the timing doesn't really matter; I have no trouble believing he sent his laundry out, as plenty of people with far less money than Carter do that for convenience, and if that's what he was used to, when Gamma cut him off or whatever happened, it wouldn't immediately occur to him to start doing his own laundry to cut down on regular expenses. 

It's a TV cliché, to take the spoiled character and the "regular person" character to the laundromat so we can discover the spoiled character has never had to do their own laundry, but I also don't have any problem believing John Truman Carter III had not, prior to that day, done laundry.

[freddi]

Sad news about Vanessa Marquez ("Wendy") -- sounds like she has had many difficult years:  https://variety.com/2018/tv/news/vanessa-marquez-er-shot-killed-police-1202923337/ 

[Growsonwalls]

Just rewatched "Fathers and Sons." First of all, that black t-shirt/jeans that Doug sports is really hot. 

I remember loving this episode way back when and still loved it on rewatch. As I said the rapport between Doug and Mark is always a joy to watch. I thought Doug was a bit harsh on Mark. Yes, Doug's dad wins the award for World's Shittiest Dad but it doesn't mean Mark's flinty, unaffectionate dad didn't do damage either. Doug's disappointment in finding out that his dad was an irresponsible shithead to the very end was heartbreaking, and it made me appreciate what Doug was able to do with his life even if he himself had many issues.

Carol showing up at the end was very sweet. She really loves her man.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Sad news about Vanessa Marquez.    She wasn't on after the first few seasons, and the next place I saw her was on Intervention, as a compulsive spender, and she claimed George Clooney blacklisted her for speaking out about harassment on the ER set, but he pointed out he was just a cast member, and had no power to do anything to her, and wouldn't have anyway:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/er-actress-vanessa-marquez-shot-170045762.html

A friends daughter got a full ride scholarship to go to a very nice university.   She grew up doing her own housework, and ever time she got a new roommate she had to show them how to do laundry, make their bed, and iron clothes without burning them.    They all had servants for that, and had been paying someone to do menial chores for them. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Growsonwalls]

Speaking of Season 4, is Cynthia the most annoying character in ER history or what? There are a couple of gems from "Fathers and Sons" about Cynthia.

One is when Mark is grilling Doug on who he's dating Mark asks "Cynthia?" And Doug says "No, and neither should you."

Then Mark foolishly wants to buy a $75 necklace that says "Cynthia" at the pawnshop and Doug says "You buy that necklace you're not coming back to the motel with me." Heh.

But everything about her was annoying. My god.

[Dr.OO7]

7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I don't know any women who did med school or residency in my era who couldn't cite multiple incidents where they were treated disrespectfully and, if they complained, were told they weren't tough enough, didn't have a sense of humor, etc.  It might seem unbelievable now, but I was there and you can believe it.  I could cite 5 personal experiences right off the top of my head that would be as bad or worse than anything on ER.

I had a surgeon "accidentally" grab my ass during rounds, an OB/GYN resident who hated me and every other female student, and a professor who refused to write me a recommendation letter in retaliation for me rebuffing his advances.

When the #MeToo era kicked off (and I'm sad, but not ashamed to admit that I posted it also), I recall the New York Times printing a terrific article about harassment in the medical profession, stating that female doctors, nurses, etc., needed their own separate hashtag because the stories were so plentiful.

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Just rewatched "Fathers and Sons." First of all, that black t-shirt/jeans that Doug sports is really hot. 

I remember loving this episode way back when and still loved it on rewatch. As I said the rapport between Doug and Mark is always a joy to watch. I thought Doug was a bit harsh on Mark. Yes, Doug's dad wins the award for World's Shittiest Dad but it doesn't mean Mark's flinty, unaffectionate dad didn't do damage either. Doug's disappointment in finding out that his dad was an irresponsible shithead to the very end was heartbreaking, and it made me appreciate what Doug was able to do with his life even if he himself had many issues.

Carol showing up at the end was very sweet. She really loves her man.

It's one of my favorite episodes and I agree with everything you wrote here. While Mark did need to "get his head out of ass", as Doug so eloquently put it, Mark's father not being absent or explicitly abusive doesn't equal him being perfect.

I LOVE that scene where Mark won't quit teasing Doug about reconciling with Carol--"Does she make you take a lie detector test every week or something?"--and Doug getting annoyed and spraying him with beer. It was nice to see the old Mark again for a few minutes.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Camille

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Speaking of Season 4, is Cynthia the most annoying character in ER history or what? There are a couple of gems from "Fathers and Sons" about Cynthia.

One is when Mark is grilling Doug on who he's dating Mark asks "Cynthia?" And Doug says "No, and neither should you."

Then Mark foolishly wants to buy a $75 necklace that says "Cynthia" at the pawnshop and Doug says "You buy that necklace you're not coming back to the motel with me." Heh.

But everything about her was annoying. My god.

If I'd based my opinion of Mariska Hargitay's acting skills on her role as Cynthia, I'd have guessed her career would be very short. 

I was happy to see Cynthia hit the road, so to speak. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Speaking of Season 4, is Cynthia the most annoying character in ER television history or what?

Fixed that for ya.  ;-)

She's stupefyingly awful.  Unbearable, really.  I almost skipped L&O: SVU because of Mariska Hargitay, I hated Cynthia so much.