All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Bastet]

I watched a couple of episodes in the wee hours while trying to get back to sleep, and, wow, was that storyline with Mare Winningham as the fake doctor with the hots for Mark a ridiculous plot.

[Cloud9Shopper]

3 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Happy 22nd Birthday, Tess & Kate!

One of the girls in the ER Discord I’m in did a rewatch of Great Expectations on Instagram Live so I hopped on to join her. I remember when I saw it back in its original airing that I thought Carol was being annoying back when she was yelling to go  to OB to have the first baby. I now of course give her props for her common sense and insistence on wanting to go upstairs. 

Anyone with medical knowledge ( @Rootbeer if you’re still lurking or anyone else who knows) understand why Carol and Mark were pushing back so hard against the hysterectomy possibility other than “but she doesn’t want it”? It sure looked and sounded like Carol was having trouble in the OR with her BP dropping and losing a lot of blood and yet Mark chose that time to fight with Coburn over the hysterectomy. Was it an overreaction to suggest at that point or something? However, overall I think Julianna really sold Carol’s exhaustion and stress in labor and from the blood loss.

I also laughed at Mark’s dad having a hard time with the pads for Rachel! I’m not laughing that he fell but just his baffle at all the different kinds and “they couldn’t just have regular!”

S6 were the days I actually enjoyed Abby’s and Luka’s characters. I wish they had kept them that way. Luka was a huge help to laboring Carol, though I know the way he behaved before and after the birth in other episodes creeped people out. Anyway, S6 overall even before Sobricki was really peak ER. I did enjoy the episode! 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I also laughed at Mark’s dad having a hard time with the pads for Rachel! I’m not laughing that he fell but just his baffle at all the different kinds and “they couldn’t just have regular!”

I love that little rant of his.  My favorite part of that episode is when Rachel tells Elizabeth the Pilgrims came here to escape persecution by the British, and she tells the little brat, "Yes, so they could go about persecuting the Indians."

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

One of the girls in the ER Discord I’m in did a rewatch of Great Expectations on Instagram Live so I hopped on to join her. I remember when I saw it back in its original airing that I thought Carol was being annoying back when she was yelling to go  to OB to have the first baby. I now of course give her props for her common sense and insistence on wanting to go upstairs. 

Anyone with medical knowledge ( @Rootbeer if you’re still lurking or anyone else who knows) understand why Carol and Mark were pushing back so hard against the hysterectomy possibility other than “but she doesn’t want it”? It sure looked and sounded like Carol was having trouble in the OR with her BP dropping and losing a lot of blood and yet Mark chose that time to fight with Coburn over the hysterectomy. Was it an overreaction to suggest at that point or something? However, overall I think Julianna really sold Carol’s exhaustion and stress in labor and from the blood loss.

I also laughed at Mark’s dad having a hard time with the pads for Rachel! I’m not laughing that he fell but just his baffle at all the different kinds and “they couldn’t just have regular!”

S6 were the days I actually enjoyed Abby’s and Luka’s characters. I wish they had kept them that way. Luka was a huge help to laboring Carol, though I know the way he behaved before and after the birth in other episodes creeped people out. Anyway, S6 overall even before Sobricki was really peak ER. I did enjoy the episode! 

I think the main reason was because it would close the door to future pregnancies.  However, the plot was dumb because we had Mark, an ER doc, telling Coburn, an obstetrician, how to handle postpartum bleeding.  Mark, in real life, wouldn't have known his butt from his elbow about managing that situation.  Coburn was also way too quick to talk hyst when she hadn't even run through the basic options that everyone practicing OB would've known.  There's about half a dozen things any OB would try before resorting to removing the uterus.

There was a lot of holes in the whole 'Carol gives birth' plot, starting with her fainting at the El station, but Coburn acting like she'd never heard of trying to preserve the uterus rather than immediately jumping into hysterectomy was really egregious,

The other reason to avoid hyst in Carol's case is that, after having twins, her uterus was still quite large, several times non-pregnant size and blood flow to the pelvis is greatly increased in pregnancy, especially with twins; which makes it technically quite difficult to remove the uterus without running into even more bleeding and transfusions and/or injuring the bladder, ureters or bowel which are all in the neighborhood in that situation.  The risk of transfusion and postoperative infection as well as multiple other complications are far more common with a postpartum hysterectomy than with one done in a non-pregnant patient.

[Dr.OO7]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:07 PM, Bastet said:

I watched a couple of episodes in the wee hours while trying to get back to sleep, and, wow, was that storyline with Mare Winningham as the fake doctor with the hots for Mark a ridiculous plot.

It's was embarrassing. The absolute second-lowest point of the godawful 5th season (Doug's poorly written exit being the nadir).

[Lady Whistleup]

My favorite part of Mark's dad buying pads was not just how confused he got, but what a good sport he was about it. Mark's dad was really a cool guy, and I still love re-watching the episodes where he and Mark bond again.

[Rootbeer]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:07 PM, Bastet said:

I watched a couple of episodes in the wee hours while trying to get back to sleep, and, wow, was that storyline with Mare Winningham as the fake doctor with the hots for Mark a ridiculous plot.

It was a definite low point, especially since Mare Winningham is a very good actress and it's a shame she could've been a great guest star if she hadn't been given such dreck.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Started a partial rewatch last night (seasons 5-6 for fanfic purposes) and Lucy doesn’t annoy me yet as much as she grated on some others. I only watched the S5 premiere, so we’ll have to see how it goes, but I definitely felt more sympathy for how crazy her first day was and how she was just left alone to jump in. 

In the scene where she goes to talk to the patient’s wife and uses all the medical jargon, I give her the blame for overstepping, though. I interpreted her exchange with Carter as Carter telling her here’s what we normally do and then explaining it, not giving her directions to take it on herself. It also didn’t bother me too much that he asked her to try a diagnosis without using a computer. Seems like that would be par for the course on the job most of the time, wouldn’t it? 

I do also blame her for lying about the IV. All she had to say was that she wasn’t comfortable yet or hadn’t done one, and I’m sure Carter or Carol or whoever would’ve been happy to walk her through it. Instead she lies and hides the truth until a few episodes from now. 

Again, maybe Lucy will irritate me as time goes on, but I think there were mistakes on both hers and Carter’s sides in this episode. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[Cloud9Shopper]

In the middle of my S5 rewatch/podcast listen. (I’ve watched through 5x3 on Hulu and just finished The Storm Part 1 on the podcast.) 

Lucy is still irritating me. She really thinks she knows everything and can’t seem to follow directions. In rewatching now I can see that she is a terrible fit to be an ER doc, had she lived of course.

Oh boy. So much to unpack in The Storm but when I first rewatched it, two things stood out to me:

That Carol, after seeing how Doug’s actions caused the closure of her clinic, could still pine for him. I get that he obviously matured down the road and they stayed together but who would’ve predicted that at the time?

That Doug got another attending position. How would the Ricky Abbott fiasco not be a permanent black mark on his record? Am I missing something? Plus there’s background checks, etc. Kerry and Anspaugh would probably happily tank his reference. 

Also, I am so glad the Lucy/Carter fling/romance/whatever never went anywhere. That whole thing is still cringe. I’d rather watch Mark and Cynthia. (Which I never pointed out that I love Mariska on SVU and Olivia Benson, but Cynthia has never stopped being a train wreck.)

 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I wasn't surprised Doug got the other attending position, but suspect there were limits on what he could do with research, and would never be able to do clinical trials again, at least not FDA related.   

I was shocked when I found out a doctor I was a patient of was fired from a local hospital for something administrative (not medical malpractice, but paperwork, but a major violation costing the hospital a rather large settlement), and was immediately hired for a permanent job at a hospital about 40 miles away, and at a super high salary.     I think ignoring past behavior is fairly common in a lot of professions. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Rootbeer]

As noted above, Doug specifically broke the protocols of a blinded study to give Ricky the new pain med and not the standard med which Joy said didn't work.  However, Doug was not a researcher and many hospitals are not teaching hospitals and do not have ongoing clinical research.  If the Seattle hospital needed a skilled pediatric emergency room doc who was proficient at patient care; Doug was certainly that.

Also, since Doug had sought out the position, it is possible that he knew someone personally there and that would work in his favor.  Or someone there knew Anspaugh or Kerry and didn't like them anyway and therefore, wasn't concerned about their opinions of Doug.

Finally, if you've ever written a reference for someone, you know that big employers are especially vague and often won't do anything but verify dates of employment and job title.  The same thing happens with doctors.  Doug would have to provide professional references, but he could pick and choose and, of course, exclude any of the docs who knew what had happened.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Cloud9Shopper]

Caught up on the podcast and am now on S5 once Carol finds out she’s pregnant. And I have actually really liked Carol for most of the show but I end up getting kind of annoyed with her when she starts to whine and act like some sort of victim over this pregnancy and how she doesn’t want to be a single mother. 

Of course we all know this happens for behind the scenes/contract reasons. But Carol, Doug isn’t dead or terminally ill and the twins (as far as we know) don’t end up in the NICU or with any special needs. In one of those situations her stress would be completely understandable. You could have gone with him. She even eventually says Doug is seeing the kids, but I never understood after seeing the original airing of the twins and on my rewatch why she plays up the victim act when Doug is willing and waiting. 

I’ve also since really come to dislike pregnancy storylines when the actress isn’t pregnant in real life. It seems contrived. We saw it later with Abby (I think I read Maura said somewhere that she never wanted kids in real life which, kudos to her), and I know it popped up in Chicago Med with Natalie and now it’s happening on New Amsterdam with Floyd’s married girlfriend. 

The only time I didn’t mind it was with how well done Kem’s stillbirth was, as sad as that storyline was. Everything else it just seemed pointless to have an actress wear some padding for some contrived drama.

[Rootbeer]

9 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Caught up on the podcast and am now on S5 once Carol finds out she’s pregnant. And I have actually really liked Carol for most of the show but I end up getting kind of annoyed with her when she starts to whine and act like some sort of victim over this pregnancy and how she doesn’t want to be a single mother. 

Of course we all know this happens for behind the scenes/contract reasons. But Carol, Doug isn’t dead or terminally ill and the twins (as far as we know) don’t end up in the NICU or with any special needs. In one of those situations her stress would be completely understandable. You could have gone with him. She even eventually says Doug is seeing the kids, but I never understood after seeing the original airing of the twins and on my rewatch why she plays up the victim act when Doug is willing and waiting. 

I’ve also since really come to dislike pregnancy storylines when the actress isn’t pregnant in real life. It seems contrived. We saw it later with Abby (I think I read Maura said somewhere that she never wanted kids in real life which, kudos to her), and I know it popped up in Chicago Med with Natalie and now it’s happening on New Amsterdam with Floyd’s married girlfriend. 

The only time I didn’t mind it was with how well done Kem’s stillbirth was, as sad as that storyline was. Everything else it just seemed pointless to have an actress wear some padding for some contrived drama.

The other frustrating fact was that Carol's was a planned pregnancy.  We saw her discuss getting pregnant with Doug and they both agreed to do it.  When it was taking longer than expected, Carol ran some blood work on herself through her clinic.  The same clinic that got shut down in the aftermath of Doug's exit.  So, Carol made a conscious choice to have a child with Doug, a guy to whom she was not married.  Then, after committing to having a child together, she refused to move when he could no longer find employment in Chicago.  This was a problem entirely of her own making and she needed to shut up because the pregnancy and the decision not to leave with Doug were her choices, no one else'.

[Lady Whistleup]

I always thought it was kind of weird why Carol was in such a rush to get pregnant. In terms of timeline she and Doug had just rekindled their relationship and you'd think she would have wanted a couple years of them alone before she had kids. It wasn't as if her ovaries were drying up.

[Claire85]

At the time I thought she was thinking kids would be a way to make him stick around. Obviously not at first. LOL. 

[Bastet]

11 minutes ago, Claire85 said:

At the time I thought she was thinking kids would be a way to make him stick around.

I guess, like the writers, she forgot he already had one kid he'd never even met.

[Cloud9Shopper]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I always thought it was kind of weird why Carol was in such a rush to get pregnant. In terms of timeline she and Doug had just rekindled their relationship and you'd think she would have wanted a couple years of them alone before she had kids. It wasn't as if her ovaries were drying up.

How old is Carol supposed to be in the show, at least roughly? She says she’s loved Doug since she was 23 but when the series started, she seemed a little older than that. I agree; I don’t get the impression that she was up there in age enough to worry about losing her fertility. 

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

How old is Carol supposed to be in the show, at least roughly? She says she’s loved Doug since she was 23 but when the series started, she seemed a little older than that. I agree; I don’t get the impression that she was up there in age enough to worry about losing her fertility. 

I think she'd be in her late 20s since I had the impression she and Doug had an on-off thing for several years. 

[Rootbeer]

17 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I always thought it was kind of weird why Carol was in such a rush to get pregnant. In terms of timeline she and Doug had just rekindled their relationship and you'd think she would have wanted a couple years of them alone before she had kids. It wasn't as if her ovaries were drying up.

We found out Doug and Carol were back together at the end of season 3 and had been for some period of time prior to then.  They remained a couple until he left mid Season 5; so they had been back together for about 2 years before she got pregnant.  It wasn't such a rushed decision.

[littlebennysmom]

Sam and her son Alex -- gah!  Watching season 10 on POP, wtf with Sam letting him run unsupervised in the ER?  And getting pissed at Luka for giving him ice cream when he's diabetic and not recognizing he was hyperglycemic -- yes, how very DARE he!! 

Didn't Alex also steal something from a patient, some prosthetic or the like?  Yeah, this is YOUR problem that YOU brought to the workplace, girlfriend, smh.  Couldn't stand either character.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I hated Sam for the most part.* I couldn’t believe she let her kid run without abandon in an ER. I mean yes County had the most lax security ever and apparently had no staff code of conduct, but that’s no excuse. I don’t want kids and have no idea of the cost of childcare back then but I find it hard to believe she had no options but to let him come to work. (Then again, Mark had Rachel at the hospital with him sometimes although she mostly stayed at the front desk or in the lounge and wasn’t running around unsupervised.) That behavior drove me away from the character. I worked in an office pre-pandemic and people there did not bring kids unless it was on very specific, pre-approved occasions or it was just a quick appearance from a baby. I couldn’t believe it went unchecked in a major trauma center! 

*There were a couple of instances where I didn’t mind Sam. I liked her in an S13 episode where she had a storyline with a photographer who had cancer. I also liked when she tried to confront Abby and hold her accountable for drinking at work, but that’s mostly because someone needed to smack Abby and let her know she wasn’t as much of a hero as she was being held up as. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

6 hours ago, littlebennysmom said:

Sam and her son Alex -- gah!  Watching season 10 on POP, wtf with Sam letting him run unsupervised in the ER?  And getting pissed at Luka for giving him ice cream when he's diabetic and not recognizing he was hyperglycemic -- yes, how very DARE he!! 

Didn't Alex also steal something from a patient, some prosthetic or the like?  Yeah, this is YOUR problem that YOU brought to the workplace, girlfriend, smh.  Couldn't stand either character.

I don't know about the prosthetic, but didn't he grab someone's amputated finger?   The ER staff were looking everywhere for the finger to try reattachment, but there was Alex running around with it. 

There was also the burning down an apartment house by ALex.   I couldn't stand the character.     

Edited December 21, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[ShortyMac]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I don't know about the prosthetic, but didn't he grab someone's amputated finger?   There was also the burning down an apartment house by ALex.   I couldn't stand the character.     

Yeah, a patient's severed finger.

Ugh, don't remind me about the apartment fire. Sam and Gracie (Sam's grandma) knew deep down he caused it, but, did not turn him in, or make him face any consequences. The fire killed a few people, including their elderly neighbor, who Gracie was friendly with. They should have made Alex take responsibility for what he did, whether he meant to do it, or not.

[littlebennysmom]

4 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I don't know about the prosthetic, but didn't he grab someone's amputated finger?   The ER staff were looking everywhere for the finger to try reattachment, but there was Alex running around with it. 

There was also the burning down an apartment house by ALex.   I couldn't stand the character.     

Yes, thank you, he grabbed an amputated finger in the ER, not a prosthetic 😄.  Still enough to make all those in any hospital's risk management department have cardiac arrest.

[Cloud9Shopper]

30 minutes ago, littlebennysmom said:

Yes, thank you, he grabbed an amputated finger in the ER, not a prosthetic 😄.  Still enough to make all those in any hospital's risk management department have cardiac arrest.

I remember being close to the end of the series (I finished in August) and thinking thank God County isn’t a real hospital and these people aren’t real doctors and nurses. I wouldn’t trust most of them if my life were on the line and the ERverse was real, with the exception of a very few. 
 

Not to mention who in their sane mind would ever work there. Yes sign me up to get shot at and be caught up in an explosion (more than once) with maybe a dude in an army tank looking for me. When can I start? 😂

[alex899]

I just finished watching through season 6 for the first time since I was a kid in the 90s, so there is a huge nostalgia element to the show for me that could explain my heart for Carol, but she is my favorite character. I definitely noticed more of her faults -- and everyone's faults -- as an adult, but I still enjoy her and had always thought she was well-liked by viewers. I was reading through this thread, and I was kind of sad to see that so many people on here actually seem to dislike her. I feel like there’s always so much nuance, subtext, backstory, and even presumed backstory behind everything she does. I find her really compelling. I mean, this is a character who is introduced to the series having tried to die by suicide. She has all of these edges and layers to her and I’ve always felt like Julianna Margulies has these microexpressions that show how there is always more behind what she is saying or isn’t saying. I also think Carol has this desire for strength and independence -- this pride, which she even admits -- but she takes it so far that it comes across as martyrdom for the viewers. She's stubborn and insecure, which I find relatable, honestly.

All of that being said, I do really have a hard time understanding what the writers were trying to do with her in season 6. I wish I could ask them! I feel like she was either having her babies, taking care of her babies, or just a reactionary character, which seems like such a waste for her final season. I wished that they had used her remaining time to wrap up her character development, you know, some kind of continued evolution. I especially find it odd that they had her reacting to all of these patient scenarios, but when Carter and Lucy are stabbed, she isn't even at the hospital? Her shift is over. Did they write her to just show up for a minute at the end as a way to showcase the remaining players during the trauma, since she was leaving the show? Did Julianna not have time to film more scenes? I would love to know the writer's reasoning behind leaving her out of such a pivotal episode for literally every other character. We even see Chuny and Lydia's reactions, Randi, and I think nurse Lily, is it? I would have liked to have seen her working to save her co-workers with the others, to have at least seen a reaction beyond, "A trauma is coming in, we're short-staffed." It was jarring.

I mean, that comment in and of itself doesn't bother me as much as it seemed to have bothered other people, because I do feel like she's taking her cues from Mark and you do see her staring at the crime scene really intensely, but it definitely short changes the viewer for any kind of real, sustained emotion from one of the original, main characters. I don't understand that. I just don't understand the writers' choices for her character that season at all unless they were like, "Well, Julianna is leaving anyway." Or purposely trying to make the audience forget about her/dislike her. I would understand running out of ideas, but I have a couple that would have worked myself, so surely they could have come up with something! Plus, would Doug have really stayed away? Miss the birth of his children? Not help her during the pregnancy? I was so thrown by this season of the show as an adult and the choices that were made for their characters. As a kid, I think I just thought, oh, twins, fun. It hits differently now.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Looks like ER is going to be on HBO Max next month. I don’t see it on Hulu’s leave list, so hopefully it sticks around there for a little while longer. I really don’t want to pay for yet another platform next time I want to watch the show haha:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/everything-coming-leaving-hbo-max-064818683.html (ER is supposed to hit on January 14 if anyone wants to CTRL+F.)

[Cloud9Shopper]

19 hours ago, alex899 said:

I just finished watching through season 6 for the first time since I was a kid in the 90s, so there is a huge nostalgia element to the show for me that could explain my heart for Carol, but she is my favorite character. I definitely noticed more of her faults -- and everyone's faults -- as an adult, but I still enjoy her and had always thought she was well-liked by viewers. I was reading through this thread, and I was kind of sad to see that so many people on here actually seem to dislike her. I feel like there’s always so much nuance, subtext, backstory, and even presumed backstory behind everything she does. I find her really compelling. I mean, this is a character who is introduced to the series having tried to die by suicide. She has all of these edges and layers to her and I’ve always felt like Julianna Margulies has these microexpressions that show how there is always more behind what she is saying or isn’t saying. I also think Carol has this desire for strength and independence -- this pride, which she even admits -- but she takes it so far that it comes across as martyrdom for the viewers. She's stubborn and insecure, which I find relatable, honestly.

All of that being said, I do really have a hard time understanding what the writers were trying to do with her in season 6. I wish I could ask them! I feel like she was either having her babies, taking care of her babies, or just a reactionary character, which seems like such a waste for her final season. I wished that they had used her remaining time to wrap up her character development, you know, some kind of continued evolution. I especially find it odd that they had her reacting to all of these patient scenarios, but when Carter and Lucy are stabbed, she isn't even at the hospital? Her shift is over. Did they write her to just show up for a minute at the end as a way to showcase the remaining players during the trauma, since she was leaving the show? Did Julianna not have time to film more scenes? I would love to know the writer's reasoning behind leaving her out of such a pivotal episode for literally every other character. We even see Chuny and Lydia's reactions, Randi, and I think nurse Lily, is it? I would have liked to have seen her working to save her co-workers with the others, to have at least seen a reaction beyond, "A trauma is coming in, we're short-staffed." It was jarring.

I mean, that comment in and of itself doesn't bother me as much as it seemed to have bothered other people, because I do feel like she's taking her cues from Mark and you do see her staring at the crime scene really intensely, but it definitely short changes the viewer for any kind of real, sustained emotion from one of the original, main characters. I don't understand that. I just don't understand the writers' choices for her character that season at all unless they were like, "Well, Julianna is leaving anyway." Or purposely trying to make the audience forget about her/dislike her. I would understand running out of ideas, but I have a couple that would have worked myself, so surely they could have come up with something! Plus, would Doug have really stayed away? Miss the birth of his children? Not help her during the pregnancy? I was so thrown by this season of the show as an adult and the choices that were made for their characters. As a kid, I think I just thought, oh, twins, fun. It hits differently now.

Hi! I also started watching when I was kind of young. I was 14 in S6 when I was first able to watch (with supervision) and I spent three years going through the whole series on Hulu when it got to streaming. I’m in my 30s now.

I do actually quite like Carol. I am rewatching S5 and S6 now (I’m a fanfic writer and I have a story idea) and I like the way she deals with Lucy. I also liked her earlier in the run when she demanded respect for the nurses and realized that being a doctor was the wrong path for her. But the S6 stuff you mentioned didn’t make sense to me when I was a kid, and it still didn’t when I watched on Hulu. The martyrdom/woe is me direction the writers took with Carol is so confusing even though I knew they had to do something with Doug obviously not coming back. And that was when I stopped liking her because all she did was mope! I mean, maybe the writers could’ve skipped the pregnancy then (as Julianna wasn’t pregnant in real life) and had her worried about keeping a long-distance relationship, mentioning how hard keeping up communication is. I mean it was the 90s, so no Skype or social media or anything like that then.

As far as general watching the show when you’re an adult thoughts go, I was amazed how many of my opinions of the show from when I was a teenager stuck into my 30s. Characters I didn’t like in the 2000s I still don’t like now. I am a bit more of a Doug and Carol fan now when I didn’t ship them originally. Some characters I liked back then grate on me now that I’m older. Although next time I rewatch I’m going to start skipping around S9 or S10. I’m glad I saw the whole series one time but it’s not worth the agony to do it again haha. 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[alex899]

I loved watching her almost medical school arc and intubating a patient, watching her use the supplies in the store to help others during the hostage episode, and just generally show her skills as a nurse. I just watched an episode the other night where she blows medical marijuana smoke into a patient's face, because he couldn't do it himself...I think she was an empathic listener, and she could also be a lot of fun. Stealing back the crash carts. I love the episode where they throw her a surprise party and her cake has all those candles. She looks so happy. 

It seems like the only stories they knew how to tell about her in season 6 were single motherhood stories, but it didn't really ring true, because she didn't have to be a single mom. It occurred to me when she was crying in the lounge that maybe her emotions would have been more understandable if they had attributed them to postpartum depression. I know, in real life, people with a history of mental health problems can be at higher risk, so she would have fallen into that potential with her history of suicide. It's a heavy topic, but it would have made more sense for the character, and would have shined a light on a common problem. I don't think people were talking much about postpartum depression in the 90/2000s.

I do get some of her feelings about Doug - she would always think that her pregnancy was the only reason that he returned. She wanted him to come back for her. She didn't want to leave her hometown, her job, because he messed up and had to move....I also get that imagining having 2 babies alone and then actually raising them alone are completely different things. Definitely a lot...

It's so nice to be able to discuss the show! I was 9 when I started watching, so I definitely wasn't as evolved as you when it comes to picking this stuff up at a young age. I think a lot of it went over my head. For me, the biggest surprise I found on my rewatch was how I really didn't care much for Lucy. I adored her as a child. As an adult, I didn't really warm up to her until she tracked down Romano to help her with the heart patient. As a kid I didn't watch too much past season 8 -- my mom loved Dr. Greene and didn't care to turn on the show after he left! My husband wants to keep going to the bitter end. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Ah yeah! I think upon rewatching I didn’t mind S9-11 as much as I thought I would, but I definitely noticed a different “vibe” when S9 started now that Mark was gone, Carol, Doug and Susan had long left, and then we got the helicopter arc part 1. It was only once Carter leaves at the end of S11 that I really started to struggle but I hung on just to say I saw the whole thing. I’ll let you form your own opinions though! 

[Bastet]

12 minutes ago, alex899 said:

She didn't want to leave her hometown, her job, because he messed up and had to move....

I was not at all into Doug and Carol, although I was fine with them getting back together because they both rather sucked as romantic partners, so let them pair off for good and spare others having to deal with them in that way.  And I was decidedly not swooning at that airport dash and showing up on the dock the show wanted me to fall off the couch over; I just thought it was terribly sad his selfish actions had led her to the point where her best option required her to leave the job, city, mom, and friends she loved and would never had considered leaving if not for his actions necessitating it.

Yet another woman has to uproot her entire existence to accommodate a man's career.  It may be the right call for Carol  under the circumstances she was shoved into, but the idea I'm supposed to cheer this shit boggled my mind then, and it's only gone on to irritate me more in the years since, especially because this lopsided sacrifice presented as romantic remains a TV trope.

[alex899]

I actually had similar thoughts watching that scene on the dock. It's hard, because they really do have such terrific chemistry and that scene was beautifully shot, but I think I wish that their "happy ending" and the build up to it could have been done with more justice to the characters.

I hope that I can hang on watching until season 15!

[Rootbeer]

Considering that the writers knew from the get-go that Doug was leaving at the end of Season 5- George Clooney was very clear that he would serve out his 5 year contract but did not want to continue beyond that- they really dropped the ball when they wrote Doug out.  They had done some really interesting, true-to-life stories for Doug and Carol as a couple; his unreliability, her fears of commitment and the way they acted out, only to finally realize that they could grow and change and have a lasting relationship.  Then, the Joi storyline that facilitated Clooney's exit blew that all out of the water as Doug regressed and Carol, too, in her response to it.  It was a big mistake on the writers' part, IMO, and there were dozens of other ways they could've done it.  Doug could've gotten an opportunity to design a pediatric ER someplace, or volunteered with Doctors Without Borders or the ER could've had budget cuts and he was laid off and went elsewhere in Chicago to work.  I would've much preferred Doug offscreen being a functional human being and part of a couple with Carol to what we got.

Of course, TPTB could've also just written Carol out with Doug instead of signing JM for just a single extra season.  I don't know who got the idea that having her pregnant-with twins no less- but it was a really bad idea; especially when they brought Luka onboard to creepily lust after Carol and her children.  And I say this as a fan of Luka as a character; the writers really messed up writing romantic relationships for him, starting with Carol and ending in the clusterf*** that was Luby..

[Cloud9Shopper]

Funny enough, I didn’t pick up on Luka as a creep when I originally watched the show. I’ll look out for it next time now that I’m an adult and have more context. I do remember liking his character in S6 when he arrived and I appreciated the bishop storyline in S7. But like pretty much every character in the late seasons, he went downhill and became miserable and dour all the time. 

Luby is a popular relationship today with Tumblr fangirls who melt down if you say you don’t like the ship or suggest it’s not the most romantic relationship on the show. Which it surprises me because the ratings were going pretty downhill late in the series, right? The Luby fanbase couldn’t have been that big, or at least not popular enough to hold interest. And don’t even get me started on that wedding and how he practically had to manipulate Abby into getting married. Why would you want to get married if you have to twist your partner’s arm and beg them to do it and have a “secret weapon”? I’d say that if this were a couple in real life that I knew too. (Thankfully, save for one divorce, most of my friends or family members who got married in this decade are happily married and none of them had to be dragged into it.) 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[Rootbeer]

26 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Funny enough, I didn’t pick up on Luka as a creep when I originally watched the show. I’ll look out for it next time now that I’m an adult and have more context. I do remember liking his character in S6 when he arrived and I appreciated the bishop storyline in S7. But like pretty much every character in the late seasons, he went downhill and became miserable and dour all the time. 

Luby is a popular relationship today with Tumblr fangirls who melt down if you say you don’t like the ship or suggest it’s not the most romantic relationship on the show. Which it surprises me because the ratings were going pretty downhill late in the series, right? The Luby fanbase couldn’t have been that big, or at least not popular enough to hold interest. And don’t even get me started on that wedding and how he practically had to manipulate Abby into getting married. Why would you want to get married if you have to twist your partner’s arm and beg them to do it and have a “secret weapon”? I’d say that if this were a couple in real life that I knew too. (Thankfully, save for one divorce, most of my friends or family members who got married in this decade are happily married and none of them had to be dragged into it.) 

 

I think that when your date beats someone to death with his bare hands on your first date; its possibly a sign that the relationship is not going to be a healthy one.  This is especially true if the woman's response is to seek out the guy afterwards to have sex with him in the aftermath of watching the homicide take place.  Luby was a sick mess from the start.

Luka as an ER physician and character in general was just fine and very interesting.  It was his romantic life that generally sucked on the show.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I think that when your date beats someone to death with his bare hands on your first date; its possibly a sign that the relationship is not going to be a healthy one. 

Right?!  That was unreal.

They introduced him in such a creepy way, with his infatuation with Carol actually being about what was housed within her uterus, but he grew on me within the ER staff*.  And then they pulled that noise.

*I love that he's one of the many pitch perfect things about "All in the Family", that as a newcomer who doesn't have the relationship with Carter and Lucy everyone else has and as the survivor of a war zone who's experienced carnage consisting of people he knows, he's the one who can keep it together in the trauma room and assign tasks to keep the others focused.

[Ceindreadh]

5 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Funny enough, I didn’t pick up on Luka as a creep when I originally watched the show. I’ll look out for it next time now that I’m an adult and have more context. I do remember liking his character in S6 when he arrived and I appreciated the bishop storyline in S7. But like pretty much every character in the late seasons, he went downhill and became miserable and dour all the time. 

Luby is a popular relationship today with Tumblr fangirls who melt down if you say you don’t like the ship or suggest it’s not the most romantic relationship on the show. Which it surprises me because the ratings were going pretty downhill late in the series, right? The Luby fanbase couldn’t have been that big, or at least not popular enough to hold interest. And don’t even get me started on that wedding and how he practically had to manipulate Abby into getting married. Why would you want to get married if you have to twist your partner’s arm and beg them to do it and have a “secret weapon”? I’d say that if this were a couple in real life that I knew too. (Thankfully, save for one divorce, most of my friends or family members who got married in this decade are happily married and none of them had to be dragged into it.) 

 

IIRC, the Carbys were a bigger fanbase back in the day, or definitely a more vocal one.  I remember reading so so many posts where fans of the pairing were convinced that every little thing was a sign from TPTP to the fanbase that Carter and Abby were meant to be.

And even though I'd stopped watching the show long before the end, I do remember cackling somewhat evilly when it turned out that Luby was the 'winner' in the end. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

13 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

IIRC, the Carbys were a bigger fanbase back in the day, or definitely a more vocal one.  I remember reading so so many posts where fans of the pairing were convinced that every little thing was a sign from TPTP to the fanbase that Carter and Abby were meant to be.

And even though I'd stopped watching the show long before the end, I do remember cackling somewhat evilly when it turned out that Luby was the 'winner' in the end. 

I was actually a Luby shipper back in the day! As in, writing bad fanfic when I was 16 or 17 of them having a baby (this was pre-S12, and I quit watching around S9 or 10 so I didn’t see the actual canon storyline until I watched on Hulu) and cheering for Abby when she kissed him. I was actually kind of surprised that 20 years later I grew up not to like them together because so little else changed about my opinions of the show. 

I also like to think my writing skills have improved since I was a teenager but that’s another topic. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[Cloud9Shopper]

Merry Christmas, ER fans of Primetimer! So glad I have this corner of the Internet to discuss the show with you all and happy you’ve welcomed me even when we disagree.

In the event that anyone is looking to escape from their families or has some downtime this season, I gift you all some ER Christmas fic material. Open whichever gift looks to be to your liking, or open all of them! 

Fluff

Hurt/Comfort (optimistic ending)

Fix-It/Canon Divergent (gifted to another fan; available for all to read)

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I liked Carol then and on rewatch I still liked Carol. I liked her because she's cranky and insecure. She gets petty and jealous over small things. That's relatable and it's realistic -- in very  high pressure jobs, I've noticed many people are snappy and irritable.

I like how loyal she is to people like Doug and Mark, and her team of nurses. 

[RedbirdNelly]

17 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I liked Carol then and on rewatch I still liked Carol. I liked her because she's cranky and insecure. She gets petty and jealous over small things. That's relatable and it's realistic -- in very  high pressure jobs, I've noticed many people are snappy and irritable.

I like how loyal she is to people like Doug and Mark, and her team of nurses. 

I think you hit on one of the strengths of the show, especially at the beginning. There were characters who were both likeable and human, such that they had flaws. Strong writing is when you can give the good guys believable flaws. As opposed to doing suddenly stupid things to drive the plot.

[Rootbeer]

47 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I think you hit on one of the strengths of the show, especially at the beginning. There were characters who were both likeable and human, such that they had flaws. Strong writing is when you can give the good guys believable flaws. As opposed to doing suddenly stupid things to drive the plot.

This is very true; they seemed like real people, like someone you might actually know.  Doug was a good doctor but immature and impulsive, Carter was bright but naive, Susan was smart but also sarcastic and self deprecating, Mark was a brilliant doctor but wishy washy and avoided conflict even in his marriage.   We've all known people like this and that is what make the show so relatable and interesting.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 hour ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I think you hit on one of the strengths of the show, especially at the beginning. There were characters who were both likeable and human, such that they had flaws. Strong writing is when you can give the good guys believable flaws. As opposed to doing suddenly stupid things to drive the plot.

Yeah another thing I liked was how people were different outside of work than they were at work. For instance, I loved the time Benton invited Carter to Thanksgiving dinner. At work, Benton was cold and distant, but outside of work he was devoted to his family. That's realistic. 

[Bastet]

19 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I liked Carol then and on rewatch I still liked Carol. I liked her because she's cranky and insecure. She gets petty and jealous over small things.

They gave Carol some realistic storylines in the early years, like her jealous attitude towards Maggie Doyle.  Carol grew up with her older sister, and now this person from the same neighborhood who is younger than her is able to give her orders, because she's a doctor and Carol is a nurse.

I also enjoyed the tension between Carol and the other nurses when Carol became management.

[Cloud9Shopper]

3 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I think you hit on one of the strengths of the show, especially at the beginning. There were characters who were both likeable and human, such that they had flaws. Strong writing is when you can give the good guys believable flaws. As opposed to doing suddenly stupid things to drive the plot.

I agree. One of the things I like most about the early years is that these people/characters had personal problems and made mistakes but they were otherwise likable and not over the top. They had good chemistry at work and outside of work as friends. There are so many random little moments that have nothing to do with the job that I think of that make this show what it was. The staff at the banquet Mark tried to throw in S4. Lydia’s waiting room wedding in S3. Jeanie getting married to Reggie in S6 with a UPS guy as a witness. Sure you had the Love’s Labor Lost and the Exodus moments but balanced well with other slice of life things.
 

By the time the late seasons came, it was all drama and ridiculousness all the time. The fun weddings and banquets and other silly things like Carol singing (sorry for the pun) Christmas carols alone were no longer really a part of the show. It’s why I personally like to pretend the show ends once Carter leaves in the S11 finale. I can’t even stomach most of those late seasons again. 

My next rewatch will be something like, watch the majority of 1-8, start skipping in S9, and go to S15 once Carter leaves, save for a very few episodes in between. I’m glad I did the whole series one time but I wouldn’t do that again. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Another thing I liked about the early seasons was the way two people would break up, but still work together in a professional way. Like Lizzie and Benton broke up but continued to be friends and colleagues. That's realistic. Later seasons had way more melodrama.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:14 AM, Rootbeer said:

We found out Doug and Carol were back together at the end of season 3 and had been for some period of time prior to then.  They remained a couple until he left mid Season 5; so they had been back together for about 2 years before she got pregnant.  It wasn't such a rushed decision.

If I recall they got together shortly after the incident where the woman Doug had a one night stand with OD'ed in his apartment. And speaking of Doug and one night stands on my rewatch last year I found it interesting last year how Doug's whole character is supposed to be this super promiscuous player type but in actuality he kind of isn't. At first he has that totally not serious but regular thing with the Pharma rep. He also spends a bunch of episodes dating the lady who works in accounting or something (and they date long enough where he spends time with her kid), he has that weird thing with Marg Helgenberger, then the OD woman then he is back with Carol. I mean none of those are super serious but it is not like he has a different woman every episode.

On 12/20/2021 at 8:46 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

Not to mention who in their sane mind would ever work there. Yes sign me up to get shot at and be caught up in an explosion (more than once) with maybe a dude in an army tank looking for me. When can I start? 😂

The loyalty people had to that place was crazy. I mean I get wanting to help people who need it the most, but it was like the only options the doctors were either work at County or work at some private clinic for the super rich (until the even more extreme option of doctoring in Africa came up). Surely there would be other options in a city the size of Chicago that didn't have quite as high a death rate.

[Bastet]

28 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And speaking of Doug and one night stands on my rewatch last year I found it interesting last year how Doug's whole character is supposed to be this super promiscuous player type but in actuality he kind of isn't. At first he has that totally not serious but regular thing with the Pharma rep. He also spends a bunch of episodes dating the lady who works in accounting or something (and they date long enough where he spends time with her kid), he has that weird thing with Marg Helgenberger, then the OD woman then he is back with Carol. I mean none of those are super serious but it is not like he has a different woman every episode.

But weren't we expected to join Doug as a work in very early progress, trying to - among other changes - date more meaningfully, while still having most see him as the playboy he'd long been rather than noticing or at least trusting in the recent change?

I mean, dude has a kid he's never even met, but his whole early season arc is he's not that guy anymore but folks still see him that way, so we join him at the beginning of that transition, where he's making some changes, and some things change while some things look like the more they change the same, the more they stay the same, and he struggles to prove himself.

[RedbirdNelly]

on Christmas Eve day I realized that Pop was doing what I have long requested: an ER Christmas episode marathon. I missed season 1 (which I assume was Blizzard which I love) but recorded the rest--which unfortunately only covered the first few seasons. Even though early seasons are best, the show always did good Christmas episodes--even a late one with Archie singing with Helah. 

[Rootbeer]

There were actually two Christmas themed ER episodes the first season: Blizzard and The Gift which aired on consecutive weeks in Dec 1994.  Both were excellent although Blizzard is probably my all-time favorite episode.  It was the one that made me realize how much I loved this show.