All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Cloud9Shopper]

I remember being baffled the first time I saw Sam’s kid and wondering how he was basically allowed free rein of the hospital, much less could come to work with her all the time! I’ve only ever worked in offices (pre-pandemic; I’m remote now) but my coworkers were not bringing their kids on a regular basis. Even when I worked in a family-owned law firm, my bosses’ kids had been taught how to behave and where they could go on the rare occasion they came in. Even their eight-year-old was better behaved than Alex was on ER. 

I’m watching S1 now and Mark has brought Rachel to the hospital once or twice and I find it ridiculous that she’s allowed behind the desk and in a patient’s room, even if she’s not a terror (yet) like Alex. I know older Rachel, Ella, and Joe all make appearances at the hospital while their parents are working at some point. You have to wonder if it was a hospital or a daycare!  

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Yes, Sam's little darling burned down an apartment house, kept letting his sperm donor into the apartment, ran wild, no consequences for anything.  

In all fairness, Alex didn't think of him as a thief/con artist/rapist. He was just Dad. Kids are allowed to love their parents even if they're awful. Ask me how I know. 

I would have said Wyszenski. 

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I remember being baffled the first time I saw Sam’s kid and wondering how he was basically allowed free rein of the hospital, much less could come to work with her all the time! I’ve only ever worked in offices (pre-pandemic; I’m remote now) but my coworkers were not bringing their kids on a regular basis. Even when I worked in a family-owned law firm, my bosses’ kids had been taught how to behave and where they could go on the rare occasion they came in. Even their eight-year-old was better behaved than Alex was on ER. 

I’m watching S1 now and Mark has brought Rachel to the hospital once or twice and I find it ridiculous that she’s allowed behind the desk and in a patient’s room, even if she’s not a terror (yet) like Alex. I know older Rachel, Ella, and Joe all make appearances at the hospital while their parents are working at some point. You have to wonder if it was a hospital or a daycare!  

Reece was there a lot, too. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

38 minutes ago, Heathen said:

In all fairness, Alex didn't think of him as a thief/con artist/rapist. He was just Dad. Kids are allowed to love their parents even if they're awful. Ask me how I know. 

I would have said Wyszenski. 

Reece was there a lot, too. 

I forgot about Reece being there a lot too. I guess it’s just because he wasn’t screaming and crying while Benton tried to talk to a patient’s family (like Elizabeth with Ella…I love Elizabeth but that was over the top and uncalled for). Peter also wan’t using the staff lounge to interview nannies as if he had no home in which to do so (Abby and Luka with Joe), and Reece wasn’t really a kid who acted out too much, as far as we knew. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/9/2022 at 3:17 PM, Notabug said:

ER nurse managers in Chicago make a nice living and Carol should not have been impoverished. Nowadays, a nurse manager would make somewhere between mid 80's to mid 90's.  Not poverty wages.  She purchased her house at a good price and did  a lot of work on it in the years before she got pregnant.  Her mortgage should've been very reasonable.  As I recall, Carol also didn't own a car until she went with Luka to purchase a used one on her day off right before she decided to leave; so it's not like she had a large car payment, either.  ER liked to pretend that the docs and nurses there were working practically for free.  Nope.

Looking back it seems weird how they treated the nurse manager job. I get that it was probably a hard job but it seemed so strange that no one ever wanted it (to the point where I think Weaver appoints Abby to have the job which makes even less sense). But weren't there any nurses who thought they could do a good job, were good at managing or were career oriented and wanted to move up/make more money?

[Heathen]

43 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I forgot about Reece being there a lot too. I guess it’s just because he wasn’t screaming and crying while Benton tried to talk to a patient’s family (like Elizabeth with Ella…I love Elizabeth but that was over the top and uncalled for). Peter also wan’t using the staff lounge to interview nannies as if he had no home in which to do so (Abby and Luka with Joe), and Reece wasn’t really a kid who acted out too much, as far as we knew. 

Benton departed before the writers started trying to outdo themselves in the bullshit storylines category. I'm sure if he'd stuck around through the last seasons, he'd have ended up doing a brain transplant by himself while the hospital burned around him, or some equally ridiculous plot. 

Carol did have a car at one point. It was repossessed during season two or three from her parking spot at work. 

[Notabug]

15 hours ago, Heathen said:

In all fairness, Alex didn't think of him as a thief/con artist/rapist. He was just Dad. Kids are allowed to love their parents even if they're awful. Ask me how I know. 

I would have said Wyszenski. 

Reece was there a lot, too. 

I would've said Wyszenski, too, if only because her child was still just an infant and needed far more care and was helpless and couldn't speak up if mommy went on a binge and ignored him.  Which she did.  A lot.  The constant need to make anything and everything all about herself was going to come back to bite her when he was old enough to realize that Mommy put herself before anyone or anything else, including her own child so I expect his preteen years were going to be a bigger disaster than Alex'.  Kid's don't take well to having self-involved parents.

Alex was an awful kid, but at least he could say something if Sam waa neglecting him.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Notabug

[Soobs]

I'm halfway through Season 9 aka the Carter/ Abby years (ugh) and as much as I like Don Cheadle his story line seems implausible. Is it even remotely realistic that someone who has Parkinson's can also be a med student? And a med student who gives people stitches?

It seems like the majority of interesting characters are gone and maybe the better writers went with them. Also, there's a lot more cheesy music randomly playing in awkward moments. Not loving it but in for a penny...

[RedbirdNelly]

I love Don Cheadle but I did not like his story arc. It was just weird and unrealistic. I couldn't see what the point was. It would have made more sense if he was trying for a specialty that did not require precision. 

[Driad]

Don Cheadle's story arc was a chance for the writers to partially redeem themselves after the "Romano can't be a surgeon any more" arc.  But they blew it with Cheadle's character too.

[Notabug]

15 hours ago, Soobs said:

I'm halfway through Season 9 aka the Carter/ Abby years (ugh) and as much as I like Don Cheadle his story line seems implausible. Is it even remotely realistic that someone who has Parkinson's can also be a med student? And a med student who gives people stitches?

It seems like the majority of interesting characters are gone and maybe the better writers went with them. Also, there's a lot more cheesy music randomly playing in awkward moments. Not loving it but in for a penny...

The entire Don Cheadle storyline sucked.  While it is certainly true that people with various disabilities can and do become excellent physicians; the show seemed to be telling us that patient care and safety is secondary to educating students.  No, it is not.

Also, it was great when Cheadle worked in the ER with the special camera set up to look in a child's ear.  However, the setup he was using, complete with video screen, would cost 10's of thousands of dollars.  Now, it's great that ER had that stuff just sitting around but it's not something that would be available in the vast majority of hospitals.  The implication that any practice setting should provide him with expensive equipment and provide repairs and maintenance on it just so he can look in a kid's ear for a 30 dollar reimbursement from an insurance company is completely unrealistic.  The typical handheld otoscope used for that costs around $300.

Elizabeth was also perfectly within her rights as a surgeon and advocate for her patients to be concerned about how he was going to be able to safely assist in surgery.  He couldn't and his insistence that she let him do it anyway was not a sign of a guy who was going to be a good doctor, IMO.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Notabug

[Soobs]

2 hours ago, Notabug said:

The entire Don Cheadle storyline sucked.  While it is certainly true that people with various disabilities can and do become excellent physicians; the show seemed to be telling us that patient care and safety is secondary to educating students.  No, it is not.

Also, it was great when Cheadle worked in the ER with the special camera set up to look in a child's ear.  However, the setup he was using, complete with video screen, would cost 10's of thousands of dollars.  Now, it's great that ER had that stuff just sitting around but it's not something that would be available in the vast majority of hospitals.  The implication that any practice setting should provide him with expensive equipment and provide repairs and maintenance on it just so he can look in a kid's ear for a 30 dollar reimbursement from an insurance company is completely unrealistic.  The typical handheld otoscope used for that costs around $300.

Elizabeth was also perfectly within her rights as a surgeon and advocate for her patients to be concerned about how he was going to be able to safely assist in surgery.  He couldn't and his insistence that she let him do it anyway was not a sign of a guy who was going to be a good doctor, IMO.

I think the main problem was picking Parkinson's as the disability as it generally gets worse over time. With Weaver, hers has basically been the same since birth so she knows exactly where her limitations are. With Parkinson's, the limitations change daily and then decline over time.

As to the expensive equipment, isn't the hospital supposed to be a poorly funded, county hospital? The writers need to pick a lane and stick to it.

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, Soobs said:

I think the main problem was picking Parkinson's as the disability as it generally gets worse over time. With Weaver, hers has basically been the same since birth so she knows exactly where her limitations are. With Parkinson's, the limitations change daily and then decline over time.

As to the expensive equipment, isn't the hospital supposed to be a poorly funded, county hospital? The writers need to pick a lane and stick to it.

I agree that Parkinson's wasn't the best choice, but the writing for Cheadle's character was also bad.  I guess we should be glad the writers didn't make him blind and demanding to assist in surgery. There have been people with significant disabilities who've gone to med school including people confined to wheelchairs and blind people.  However, those individuals accepted their physical limitations and allowed adaptation of their student rotations in order to learn the material while also acknowledging that some of the work was simply not possible for them to participate.  Cheadle's insistence that he not be treated any differently from other students and his specific limitations be completely ignored by everyone including the patients was just unrealistic.

For example, there is no way a blind student is going to be able to go into radiology as a specialty.  There is no way for someone without eyesight to read a CT or X ray or MRI.  There just isn't.  That doesn't mean that a doctor who is not going to be a radiologist couldn't benefit from learning about the field.  However, a blind med student doesn't get to demand that they do everything that a sighted student on that rotation can do.  A student in a wheelchair is going to have a tough time becoming a surgeon as the OR tables, etc are not adaptable for a surgeon in a chair and it would be hard to adapt a lot of the equipment, etc.  Training OR staff to work with a surgeon in a chair would also be difficult as would maintaining a sterile field that would have to include the front of the chair.  So, a medical student in a chair is not going to have the exact same clinical experience that a fully ambulatory medical student would have.

Kerry knew her limitations and we never heard her complain that she wasn't able to become a surgeon.  She chose a specialty that was realistic for her abilities and I doubt she insisted that her medical school figure out a way to keep her crutches sterile in the OR or provide her with some sort of special accommodation so she could do a clinical rotation in Surgery.  She would've done one, but I expect she was realistic and accepted that modifications would be necessary.

As far as the stuff in the ER that Cheadle's character used, those things are not found in ER's anywhere because ER docs aren't trained to use them and they require special handling and maintenance.  The stuff he used might be found in an OR or in the endoscopy suite, not sitting out in the open in an ER.

Elizabeth was willing to help Cheadle to pass the rotation which was probably required for med school graduation.  However, he was not going to be able to spend as much time in the OR as other students and would maybe be spending more time on postop rounds and writing notes and such instead.  He'd still learn about general surgery within the limits of his condition and considering that he was never going to specialize in the field anyway.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Notabug

[Bastet]

It could have been a good storyline - they certainly got a worthy actor for it - of the prejudices those with disabilities endure regarding their capabilities, the attempts of institutions to get around the legal requirement of reasonable accommodations, AND the understandable but frustrating scenario of a student unwilling to accept the remaining limitations on his options.

But they had no balance or realism, so it wasn't that.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I’ve finished up through episode 16 of S1 now and I really liked some of the humorous bits in these last few episodes. Chen showing up and forgetting to use lube before doing a rectal and then shocking Carter alive, her showing Carter up at their presentation and then having the LSD chocolates. (Thought it was odd that everyone just let her keep wandering the ER but nonetheless it was funny.) Then of course the scene with the crash cart heist from cardiology, Kayson asking Susan out and giving her flowers, and Lydia pretending to not be eavesdropping on Susan and Mark’s conversation.

I really miss these small funny moments in the later seasons so I’m going to enjoy them now. 

On a down note, I am only three episodes away from Love’s Labor Lost. It’s probably going to be one of those episodes where I’ll need to switch to another show after watching. (Last time I watched All in the Family, I went back to my Hulu library and put on Superstore afterward to watch something lighter and take a break from ER.) 

[Soobs]

16 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

On a down note, I am only three episodes away from Love’s Labor Lost. It’s probably going to be one of those episodes where I’ll need to switch to another show after watching. (Last time I watched All in the Family, I went back to my Hulu library and put on Superstore afterward to watch something lighter and take a break from ER.) 

As someone who watched some but not all of the episodes when it originally aired, I was not prepared at all for that episode. Although the pregnant couple was so cute and happy, I knew something bad was going to happen to them, but not as excruciatingly tragic as it turned out to be. The dead eyed look that Mark has in the train at the end was similar to my own.

[Bastet]

I think Colleen Flynn and Bradley Whitford were well cast in those roles; they had an everyperson quality that made the characters feel like real people despite the writing going overboard in making them the perfect expectant couple.

I love Susan at the end of that episode, when she tells a frantic Mark, "She's gone.  It's thirty minutes past too late; I'm calling it."  And then tries to take Mark out to breakfast, and when he declines, assuring her he's fine, she asks him if Jen's home. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I like how some of these S1 episodes end, where they bring a patient from earlier in the episode back to the hospital and we get a fade to black when they’re being worked on so we don’t quite know what happened. 

It’s amazing that Carol and Tag got to the wedding day (and I know it all ends there anyway) with all their arguing about the church and Tag not being onboard with fostering Tatiana. I can understand why Carol ultimately gets turned down to be a foster parent anyway, even if it seems harsh and upsetting to her.

Love’s Labor Lost is next. 😓 It’s after 11:00 here and it’s definitely not the episode I want to watch right before bed. I’ll save it for next week.

On a lighter note, I love that in 1x18 Jerry calls himself an “emergency services coordinator” and then in S15 he says he’s a “unit services coordinator.” Gotta love Jerry inflating his job title since 1995. 😂

[Cloud9Shopper]

Just finished my watch of Love’s Labor Lost. It hits just as hard as it did the first time I saw it…it’s that and All in the Family where I watch and can’t breathe all the way through it feels like. 

I kind of cracked up because you can tell even before Coburn gets there that she and Mark do not get along. The episode only amplified their bitterness to each other but I’d love to know what happened before this incident that made Mark and Susan hate her so much. Maybe she’s just too bossy or pushy or something? Unless you like the retcon theory that she was always supposed to be an alcoholic and was drunk around this time. (Although realistically the writers weren’t thinking 13 years ahead of time.)

And does County ever really learn its lesson from this? Even before this episode there was a line in a previous episode where no one could find OB when they were needed! It seems like they really don’t have much OB staffing…are they chronically understaffed there or something? And every single OB was busy? I don’t work in healthcare and even that made my head hurt lol. Great episode but after watching a breakdown of just why it’s so unrealistic I can’t watch it without thinking of that reaction video. 

[Notabug]

On 11/24/2022 at 11:45 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I like how some of these S1 episodes end, where they bring a patient from earlier in the episode back to the hospital and we get a fade to black when they’re being worked on so we don’t quite know what happened. 

It's also very true to life.  ER is, by its nature, not a place for continuity.  The docs either admit a patient or 'treat 'em and street 'em' and often never see that patient again; never find out what happened.  Unlike later years, where we saw the same doc repeatedly be around to treat the same patient over and over again; that is just not how real life ER's work.  That's why a doc like Mark, who seems to relish the human connection with his patients, would, in real life, gravitate to something like Family Practice rather than ER.  Even when patients are admitted to the hospital, an ER doc might check their inpatient chart to see what happened, but they're not usually going to visit the patient and continue to provide input into their care.  That would be considered overstepping and most ER docs simply don't have the training or experience to manage long term care of patients.

[txhorns79]

On 11/29/2022 at 11:02 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I kind of cracked up because you can tell even before Coburn gets there that she and Mark do not get along. The episode only amplified their bitterness to each other but I’d love to know what happened before this incident that made Mark and Susan hate her so much. Maybe she’s just too bossy or pushy or something? Unless you like the retcon theory that she was always supposed to be an alcoholic and was drunk around this time. (Although realistically the writers weren’t thinking 13 years ahead of time.)

Coburn came off as aggressive, and for a teaching hospital, I don't recall her really seeming like someone who was interested in teaching.  In terms of the episode, I viewed a lot of Coburn's attitude as Coburn covering her own butt and that of OB.  The situation never should have gotten to the point where Mark was doing the delivery.  I don't say that to excuse him, but there was plenty of blame to go around, and she really did not want to accept it.   

[CrazyInAlabama]

I wonder if Coburn story line was supposed to go another way to explain her relationship with the ER staff, and it just was never implemented?   Or maybe the actress had other obligations, and couldn't be on more often? 

Edited December 6, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Cloud9Shopper]

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Coburn came off as aggressive, and for a teaching hospital, I don't recall her really seeming like someone who was interested in teaching.  In terms of the episode, I viewed a lot of Coburn's attitude as Coburn covering her own butt and that of OB.  The situation never should have gotten to the point where Mark was doing the delivery.  I don't say that to excuse him, but there was plenty of blame to go around, and she really did not want to accept it.   

16 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I wonder if Coburn story line was supposed to go another way to explain her relationship with the ER staff, and it just was never implemented?   Or maybe the actress had other obligations, and couldn't be on more often? 

I’m willing to give a pass on the teaching issue because we never saw any main or even recurring characters do an OB rotation like we saw with ER and surgery rotations, or even psych with Lucy and Abby. (Maybe the med school County was with didn’t require them or the writers just didn’t care/didn’t think it would be interesting, whatever.) So there’s not much evidence on residents being taught during OB cases, is there? I’m about to start S2 on my latest watch so maybe I just don’t remember. 

There’s a semi-accepted fan theory that Coburn was drunk in Love’s Labor Lost, as she’s revealed to be Abby’s AA sponsor in S14 and says she is 12 years sober, so it was 2008 in S14 and she would have gotten sober in 1996. However, I’m not sure if the writers in S1 or other pre-Abby seasons were trying to imply she was an alcoholic. It doesn’t seem like something they’d go for long before Abby was ever thought of as a character, not to mention no one even says it as a throwaway line of front desk gossip or whatever. (That said, I do like her as Abby’s sponsor. It was one of the only saving graces of S14 which could depress a laughing hyena.) 

Regardless I do love Amy Aquino. She’s a great actress and she’s one of the only celebrities I follow on Instagram. I just love her content and positive energy. 

[txhorns79]

26 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I’m willing to give a pass on the teaching issue because we never saw any main or even recurring characters do an OB rotation like we saw with ER and surgery rotations, or even psych with Lucy and Abby.

Yeah, I think we the closest we got was when Abby and Neela did their NICU rotation.  

28 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

There’s a semi-accepted fan theory that Coburn was drunk in Love’s Labor Lost, as she’s revealed to be Abby’s AA sponsor in S14 and says she is 12 years sober, so it was 2008 in S14 and she would have gotten sober in 1996.

It's an interesting theory.  I did like how there was continued tension between Mark and Coburn continuing for a number of seasons.  

30 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Regardless I do love Amy Aquino. She’s a great actress and she’s one of the only celebrities I follow on Instagram. I just love her content and positive energy. 

She's wonderful.  I think it's so hard to be a working actor, so I give her a lot of credit for making it work for all these years.  

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I’m willing to give a pass on the teaching issue because we never saw any main or even recurring characters do an OB rotation like we saw with ER and surgery rotations, or even psych with Lucy and Abby. (Maybe the med school County was with didn’t require them or the writers just didn’t care/didn’t think it would be interesting, whatever.) So there’s not much evidence on residents being taught during OB cases, is there? I’m about to start S2 on my latest watch so maybe I just don’t remember. 

In real life, med students in their third year do what are known as the major rotations.  These are the basic specialties that give an overview of medicine as a whole.  There are 5: Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Pediatrics, Psychiatry and OB/GYN.  Everyone would be required to do a clinical rotation in all 5 in order to graduate.  Clinical rotations usually last around 6-8 weeks each depending on the med school curricula.  Emergency medicine is not a major rotation, but can be taken as an elective in the last year of med school if the student wants.  An ER rotation would be much shorter than the regular majors, probably around a month.  A lot of med students do take ER rotations because it is considered kind of fun (you get to do stitches!) and, quite frankly, less demanding than other rotations.  Don't tell any ER docs I said that, but it is true.

I know of no med school anywhere that would allow a med student to do ER and/or General Surgery virtually every month for the final 2 years of medical school as we saw with Carter.  Even a Sub-I in surgery like Carter did with Benton (students are not individually assigned to specific residents either) would last maybe 2 months, not an entire academic year.  

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Yeah, I think we the closest we got was when Abby and Neela did their NICU rotation.  

It's an interesting theory.  I did like how there was continued tension between Mark and Coburn continuing for a number of seasons.  

She's wonderful.  I think it's so hard to be a working actor, so I give her a lot of credit for making it work for all these years.  

I think Coburn was just kind of brusque and not one to mince words which made her less than popular with some of the other docs.  Female doctors, in particular, get labeled as b****es if they are demanding and not interested in sugarcoating their words.

Coburn's criticism of Mark in LLL was spot on; he made some glaringly huge errors that set in motion a tragic outcome.  It wasn't Mark's fault that the OB department wasn't very helpful in the crisis; but it was his fault that, at the beginning, he insisted he knew what he was doing and acted kinda pissy when anyone suggested he didn't.  By the end, it was obvious he was not the expert he thought he was going into the case.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

9 hours ago, Notabug said:

I think Coburn was just kind of brusque and not one to mince words which made her less than popular with some of the other docs.  Female doctors, in particular, get labeled as b****es if they are demanding and not interested in sugarcoating their words.

Agree with this, and it comes up later too with Kerry and Banfield. (I know opinions on both as characters are mixed but they both got labeled as such for trying to be assertive and competently run the ER. They did better than some of the men that were put in charge, IMO.) I understand better now why Coburn was so frustrated with Mark, but County definitely needed a more equipped OB department. No one is ever there! 

Anyway, I finished S1 tonight in my second rewatch. Aside from now fully accepting that Mark was an ass in Jen’s career plotline, my overall impression of the season didn’t really change. It was long with a lot of filler and odd plots, like the Div character. I also never really cared about Linda, Diane, and whoever else Doug was dating. He’s pretty insufferable this season in his personal life but he has good moments as a doctor. And oh, I just love Hicks. I will forever wish she had stayed in the long term. 

Favorite episodes of the season aside from the pilot are Love’s Labor Lost, Blizzard and Everything Old is New Again. Carol and Tag should have never made it to the wedding day, but I’m glad Carol was able to bounce back from the pilot with grace and dignity and appreciate what she still had. I even get a kick out of the hideous 90s bridesmaid dresses. 

Motherhood is pretty good too, although I couldn’t believe Chloe was allowed to roam the ER at leisure holding her baby. (Although maybe I could because well, it’s Chloe, and so many of the staff’s family members and the staff’s kids have free rein later on anyway.) I’m not looking forward to her getting even worse in S2. 

Well, I start S2 again on Thursday night! Looking forward to seeing Kerry and watching Hell and High Water for the first time since I first was on S2 a few years ago. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Started S2 today and I have to say I do like the way Kerry enters the show. Love when she asks Mark if he’s going to finish his fries and then asks when she can start work. I also don’t think she has terrible ideas to make things more efficient and she tries to connect with Susan on a personal level. Kerry is so confident and I love it. 

And Randi comes too! I love Randi. 

I have no idea what med students do or should do in the summer but Carter seems like a bit of a slacker with not doing any reading and not planning to come back from vacation in enough time to start his rotation or his sub-I or whatever it was, especially since he knows Benton is a huge stickler for that stuff. It’s fine that he went on a trip but like come back a week or two early maybe. 

I did not need a Mark and Jen shower scene.

And Coburn’s snark on Carter makes me smile. “What’s its name?” “Peter, student implies that you’re supposed to be teaching him.”

Oh and what was up with Carol’s paramedic run outfit? A tank top (and later t shirt) and jeans? Weird choice. She could have at least worn a scrub top or something. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Bastet]

16 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I also don’t think she has terrible ideas to make things more efficient

She was absolutely right about needing to change the board at admitting to protect patient privacy, but because her system wasn't 100% perfect, of course it was bullshit bureaucracy and good ol' man of the people Mark had to save the day from it.

Kerry is one of my favorite characters.  When Elizabeth comes along, she jumps to the top of my list, but at this point in the series it's Susan, Carter, and Kerry.

A man could have come in and done all the same exact things Kerry did and the staff would not have responded as strongly as they did to her.  Any outsider making changes would have been met with initial who does this guy think he is defensiveness and eh, what the hell does he know about what we do here dismissal, but it's so magnified when it's a woman.  Points for frustrating realism, I guess.

[WendyCR72]

On 12/6/2022 at 11:48 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

Motherhood is pretty good too, although I couldn’t believe Chloe was allowed to roam the ER at leisure holding her baby. (Although maybe I could because well, it’s Chloe, and so many of the staff’s family members and the staff’s kids have free rein later on anyway.) I’m not looking forward to her getting even worse in S2. 

I remember the press hype surrounding this episode because Quentin Tarantino was directing it. Recall it was on Entertainment Tonight and other shows of its ilk back in the day.

I did like the scene with Susan and Carol sunbathing on the hospital roof. That was one thing the early seasons did well and the late seasons did very little of: Friendships and lighthearted moments in between the pathos.

[Cloud9Shopper]

29 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

I did like the scene with Susan and Carol sunbathing on the hospital roof. That was one thing the early seasons did well and the late seasons did very little of: Friendships and lighthearted moments in between the pathos.

Agree with you on this. I kind of want to take my time on the early seasons because I’m dreading all the misery and toxicity that comes in the later seasons. (I’m skipping a lot of S12-14 this time around, though, so hopefully that’ll ease some of it knowing I can watch the more tolerable parts.)

[Heathen]

On 12/10/2022 at 5:04 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I have no idea what med students do or should do in the summer but Carter seems like a bit of a slacker with not doing any reading and not planning to come back from vacation in enough time to start his rotation or his sub-I or whatever it was, especially since he knows Benton is a huge stickler for that stuff. It’s fine that he went on a trip but like come back a week or two early maybe. 

I did not need a Mark and Jen shower scene.

And Coburn’s snark on Carter makes me smile. “What’s its name?” “Peter, student implies that you’re supposed to be teaching him.”

Carter coming back from vacation the day his sub-I started struck me as weird even in 1995. 

The best part about the Coburn-Benton conversation was Benton turning around to look at Carter, and Carter's unmistakable "oh shit" expression. Classic.

[WendyCR72]

I just am glad that Noah Wyle and Eriq LaSalle are still such good friends to this day! (I recall some post on Instagram, where Eriq was celebrating Noah's daughter's birthday with them. The daughter looked just like Noah, too!)

[Notabug]

10 hours ago, Heathen said:

Carter coming back from vacation the day his sub-I started struck me as weird even in 1995. 

The best part about the Coburn-Benton conversation was Benton turning around to look at Carter, and Carter's unmistakable "oh shit" expression. Classic.

I attended med school and it was surprising to me, too.  Showing up late to any clinical rotation, let alone a sub-I, would be a major faux pas.  It did make for some nice comic relief though.

I must mention that I did not come from Carter-like wealth and flying down to the Caribbean and spending a month on the beach wasn't on my itinerary anytime I got vacation time.  I usually drove a couple of hours to my sister's and 'vacationed' on her couch.

[Bastet]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I just am glad that Noah Wyle and Eriq LaSalle are still such good friends to this day!

I like that, too -- I am always oddly tickled when friendships I love between TV characters result in friendships between the actors that carry on long after the show is done.  And Benton and Carter had my favorite relationship of the entire series.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I also like Carter and Chen’s friendship. I loved how he was so supportive of her and patient at her son’s birth. Carter and Anna had a good dynamic too (I shipped them, though). 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I also like Carter and Chen’s friendship. I loved how he was so supportive of her and patient at her son’s birth. Carter and Anna had a good dynamic too (I shipped them, though). 

Carter and Chen had a good friendship, too (despite his unwillingness to engage in the simple task of calling her Jing-Mei instead of Deb).  I also liked his friendship with Maggie Doyle, that he wasn't an asshole after she made clear she wasn't interested in anything more than that; it's a relationship I would have liked to see more of.

And, yeah, Del Amico was the only love interest/potential love interest of Carter's I was ever remotely interested in, and I would have liked to see where that went had Mario Bello not left the show.  Another "What if?"

When it comes to platonic friendship - when we're dealing with characters whose orientation means there isn't even the possibility of sexual tension, so writers can't play with that - friendships between heterosexual women suffer the absolute worst on TV, a horrible parade of harmful stereotypes with little resemblance to reality, beyond the problem of that dynamic being the one so predominantly presented.  Between heterosexual men, friendships are mostly superficial, but ill-explored or ignored is less bad than utterly mangled in such sexist ways.

As a woman, I'm most drawn to realistic female friendships, but I also love a good friendship of any kind, including the rare sighting of a multi-dimensional male friendship, and Carter-Benton is a great one, slowly evolving through its many stages.  I love the gamut (like, you know, all relationships); Benton being the one to give Carter his white coat, but stuffing it in a box and having Jerry deliver it, Benton kissing Carter on the head after the "You're getting in this van and going to rehab" showdown, and Carter telling a departing Benton his gratitude with Benton accepting and reciprocating in his old "the El doesn't take tokens anymore" way.

[ch1]

When it comes to Carter and Benton the highlight has to be All in the Family.  Between Benton tearing through the ER, bursting in the trauma room yelling “is he conscious?” to Benton losing it in the OR and Anspaugh having to talk him down - just absolute gold.  They were my favorite ship on the show.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Ugh. The scene in S2, episode 4 when everyone makes fun of Kerry in the lounge hits so awful these days. Especially when Doug imitated her limp. The ER staff sure are not supportive of their coworkers with disabilities. (See also: Sam stealing Romano’s arm in S10 and Susan hiding it and mocking him…which also? That was very un-Susan like anyway.)

I’m also not really liking Mark and Susan’s friendship. They had a nice moment together at the end of 2x5 but it seems like they spend a lot of time arguing too. I don’t remember if it gets better from here and I know in S8 they were on good terms. Although I liked to see Mark finally growing some balls and telling Susan he backs Kerry and they both need to knock it off.

On a happy note? I cracked up at Kerry putting her own voice on a computer program. “Don’t forget to log off!” 

E-Ray has always annoyed me for some reason. Maybe it’s the tie-dye? I never thought he was particularly funny. I’ll take Jerry and Randi every day. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I just started watching the S2 Christmas episode and I think it’s odd that they only brought Bradley Whitford back only to have him onscreen for like five seconds. In retrospect (I have seen this episode a few other times too), I wonder if either there was a longer scene between him and Mark and it was cut or the writers did have a confrontation in the deposition planned, but decided not to go there. It would have made things more interesting if they really had to share a scene together rather than give Sean O’Brien one awkward run-in moment.

I also do love the other little funny moments in the episode, like no one wanting to sing with Carol and when they have the party at her falling apart house. (The Setting the Tone podcast affectionately referred to it as “party at Carol’s shithole” and I can’t get over it.)

[Cloud9Shopper]

Tonight's episode: 2x12, True Lies 

So the Ruby storyline is just about over (until he returns in S11, that is) and it’s not one of my favorites. I do think for the most part, Carter was honest about Ruby's wife's condition and the risks of her surgery and treatment, but Ruby himself was overbearing and seemed in denial of the truth. And really, Benton or Vucelich or another random attending should have been more involved in the case and meeting with Ruby too rather than just leaving it up to Carter to handle everything.

The one good part of this episode? Morgenstern in a kilt. 🤣

The storyline with the alcoholic mom who had a DNR was also sad. It was like the daughter knew this would kill her mom but reality set in when she realized Susan couldn't take any life saving measures. 

[littlebennysmom]

19 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Tonight's episode: 2x12, True Lies 

So the Ruby storyline is just about over (until he returns in S11, that is) and it’s not one of my favorites. I do think for the most part, Carter was honest about Ruby's wife's condition and the risks of her surgery and treatment, but Ruby himself was overbearing and seemed in denial of the truth. And really, Benton or Vucelich or another random attending should have been more involved in the case and meeting with Ruby too rather than just leaving it up to Carter to handle everything.

The one good part of this episode? Morgenstern in a kilt. 🤣

The storyline with the alcoholic mom who had a DNR was also sad. It was like the daughter knew this would kill her mom but reality set in when she realized Susan couldn't take any life saving measures. 

The Ruby story strained credulity entirely.  There is no way any doctor would put up with Ruby for more than 2 minutes before hitting him with flatly stated reality -- "she's dying and there's nothing we can do" .  Hell, you're lucky if a dr will meet your eye during the 30 seconds you would actually be talking to them about diagnosis/treatment.

Carter was a dope to even go to the wife's service, unsympathetic Ruby appreciated nothing.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I also liked how Ruby’s wife’s name was Helen and in this episode, all of a sudden she was named Sylvie. Odd continuity error, but ER didn’t always have its priorities straight in that department. Luka’s family has now many different backstories but yet in S11 the writers dragged out Mark’s lawyer Herb, a bit character from S4 for….no real reason. It was hilarious but weird that they prioritized that over continuity for bigger plot points. 

[Notabug]

11 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I also liked how Ruby’s wife’s name was Helen and in this episode, all of a sudden she was named Sylvie. Odd continuity error, but ER didn’t always have its priorities straight in that department. Luka’s family has now many different backstories but yet in S11 the writers dragged out Mark’s lawyer Herb, a bit character from S4 for….no real reason. It was hilarious but weird that they prioritized that over continuity for bigger plot points. 

Carter had a sister in the first season who magically disappeared.  He was John Truman Carter III but his father was referred to as Roland in Season 1 and then was Jack when Michael Gross was cast in later seasons.  Meanwhile, his grandfather was said to be Jonathan Carter which means that Carter wasn't the third at all.  

Doug had a secret son who he'd never met mentioned more than once in the early seasons and then completely forgotten when Carol had the twins.

In no real world setting would a medical student be the only one to speak to the family, especially with a critically ill patient.  Ruby was annoying as hell, and should've been assigned to social services for assessment and possibly counseling due to his denial of the severity of his wife's condition. There are actual hospital teams who work with families in these situations to help them understand the options and decide on a plan.  It wasn't Carter's fault that Benton and Vucelich hung him out to dry on that case.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Notabug

[mason86]

was there an episode where  mark got agressive with a violent patient and inflicted pain on him?

Edited January 7, 2023 by mason86

[RedbirdNelly]

Back to Ruby--I was always Team Carter on this. He went above and beyond. He wasn't perfect but Ruby was over the top.

[Bastet]

I have precisely zero skills for effectively communicating with those who deny a reality that was just clearly explained to them, but Carter put in a lot of effort with Ruby.  He made mistakes, but he was set up for failure by his supervisors; at least he had the compassion and patience to try.  I'd have wound up yelling something inappropriate.

[Danny Franks]

It was definitely annoying that Carter took the full brunt of the blame, there. He tried to tell Ruby, and Ruby point blank refused to hear the truth. He just kept saying "you don't know my Helen" until Carter gave up and let Ruby live in denial.

If Ruby had ever said, "tell me the truth, I can take it," and Carter had dissembled, then I'd have more sympathy for him.

What Carter did do wrong was try to palm Helen off to a long term home, when he knew she'd decompensate. His reasoning was that "at least it won't be here," which seems like a rather unethical line of thought for a doctor. But he was being pressured by Vucelich and Benton into getting rid of her, because neither of them ever had any ethical quandaries about dumping difficult patients.

Still, Carter blaming himself was a moment of growth for him, which is what really mattered for his journey.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:01 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I also liked how Ruby’s wife’s name was Helen and in this episode, all of a sudden she was named Sylvie. Odd continuity error, but ER didn’t always have its priorities straight in that department. Luka’s family has now many different backstories but yet in S11 the writers dragged out Mark’s lawyer Herb, a bit character from S4 for….no real reason. It was hilarious but weird that they prioritized that over continuity for bigger plot points. 

But even that was crappy continuity. Since he goes from being a top level, super high powered lawyer who can make Mark's case go away with a phone call, to super cheap Lionel Hutz style ambulance chaser. Would that kind of thing ever happen?

[Cloud9Shopper]

I watched the end of this storyline last night (finally) and I think Carter should have either stayed away from the funeral or at least stood at far enough of a distance away so Ruby wouldn’t have spotted him. Like maybe in such a way where he would have been behind him and out of sight. But glad these episodes are over either way, and not looking forward to seeing Ruby in nine seasons from now either. When we see him again, I think it’s pretty sad that he still held on to his anger toward Carter (even though Carter told Ruby he was a medical student at the time) and was accusing him of killing his wife. I can’t imagine he found any peace harboring that sort of resentment for nine years. 

I was glad one of my favorite episodes, Baby Shower, was next in the lineup. It’s one of those that never seems to get enough attention or love compared to the “bigger” or splashier event episodes but I love the balance of some emergencies mixed in with happy moments, including the beet soup at Doc Magoo’s for Conni. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Heathen]

9 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I watched the end of this storyline last night (finally) and I think Carter should have either stayed away from the funeral or at least stood at far enough of a distance away so Ruby wouldn’t have spotted him. Like maybe in such a way where he would have been behind him and out of sight. But glad these episodes are over either way, and not looking forward to seeing Ruby in nine seasons from now either. When we see him again, I think it’s pretty sad that he still held on to his anger toward Carter (even though Carter told Ruby he was a medical student at the time) and was accusing him of killing his wife. I can’t imagine he found any peace harboring that sort of resentment for nine years. 

I was glad one of my favorite episodes, Baby Shower, was next in the lineup. It’s one of those that never seems to get enough attention or love compared to the “bigger” or splashier event episodes but I love the balance of some emergencies mixed in with happy moments, including the beet soup at Doc Magoo’s for Conni. 

I like the baby shower episode, too. But why on earth would the hospital let Greene deliver babies after what he did to the O'Briens?! (Rhetorical question here.) 

[Notabug]

50 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I like the baby shower episode, too. But why on earth would the hospital let Greene deliver babies after what he did to the O'Briens?! (Rhetorical question here.) 

In real life, they wouldn't.  There would be a plan for where the OB unit would re-locate in the event of an emergency and all the patients and regular OB staff would be there.

In real life, ER docs are afraid of pregnant women and avoid them like the plague.