Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[daxx]

2 hours ago, paperplate said:

I still cannot get past the lack of romantic chemistry between Regina & Robin (or Lana & Sean) and between Emma & Hook (or Jennifer & Colin). I believe Sean and Colin are miscast. And then they die but the writers just keep bringing them back. I think the writers need to resurrect their brains instead of those two, then maybe this show will die with some dignity.

I also cannot understand why everyone has to have a romantic interest.  I get that it is a significant part of the traditional fairy tale or happily ever after, but it's just too much.

Chemistry is a subjective thing, I find Robin and Regina have none but Hook and Emma are off the charts (with lots of internet articles and polls celebrating their chemistry I'm not the only one). 

I want Emma to have a complete happy ending with a family, spouse, children the whole deal and so do a lot of people. So I do hope they give her one.

[Guest]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 11:53 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Regina being the one to follow Emma to the AU was all about Robin. If David, Henry or Hook had gone to the AU to get Emma back, they would have been a lot more effective, wouldn't have used murder, and would probably have been back by now or trying to figure out a way to get back.

None of these people were ever going to bring Robin back with them to Storybrooke, but Regina is another story.

I think that the whole episode would have been better if they had just had Regina and Hook go confront EQ and Regina wish both of them to Emma.  It wouldn't have changed the overall story but could have fixed some of the worse parts.

- Hook is a villain so the reaction to Regina / Hook would have been no different than just Regina

- The chats with Rumple would have been more interesting.

- No way does Hook let Regina kill wish Snowing.  And Emma would have still been able to remember being the savior by stopping Henry from killing.  (actually if Hook was there he probably would have killed Snowing with the way this show rolls)

And then once Regina gets all Robin obsessed, they can either split up on separate adventures or act as a foursome.

Frankly, I think that might have been better than any single character going after Emma.

The worse thing about this episode is that once again they ignored the relationships.  I just don't get what would possess them to not want to do a scene where Emma has to say goodbye to a version of Snowing that raised her from childhood.  No they kill them.  If they hadn't killed them it would have been the same freeze and split they did with Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Some don't seem comfortable with each other on screen though.

Snow and Emma don't seem comfortable, but the writing forced them into that position. They had a lot of chemistry in S1 and 2A. After that, the strained mother/daughter relationship made it very awkward. That would be fine and welcomed, but the show never embraced how weird it was. Emma was calling Snow "mom" when she wasn't acting anything like a mother at all. It was very forced, much like Emma's friendship with Regina. In every scene, it seems like there's something screwy going on offscreen, but we never get to see it. Their relationship doesn't feel altruistic or organic. Thus, their dialogue and interactions are very stilted. Snow can say hurtful things, even unintentionally, and Emma doesn't get to react to it. Meanwhile, Snow only seems to care about her daughter whenever the plot needs her to. Snowflake didn't help things.

Edited January 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kktjones]

Yeah, the way they handled the Emma/Snow relationship is one of the biggest fails of the show. It was honestly my favorite thing in Season 1 and there is so much they could have done with them. They were better about Emma's relationship with David, but it seems like they have written off the Emma & Snow relationship completely (except in the rare cases when they need an interaction for plot reasons). 

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

Yeah, the way they handled the Emma/Snow relationship is one of the biggest fails of the show. It was honestly my favorite thing in Season 1 and there is so much they could have done with them. They were better about Emma's relationship with David, but it seems like they have written off the Emma & Snow relationship completely (except in the rare cases when they need an interaction for plot reasons). 

I find it hard to believe that NO ONE in the Writers Room or ABC has noticed this.  Or maybe they just don't care.  And certainly, no one ever tweets about this to Adam.  As I said in the Spoilers thread, I have even tried to say it in a nice way like you did above "I loved the friendship between Emma and MM in the first season... when will we get another episode (or a scene) around that", and nothing.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Camera One

[Free]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

I find it hard to believe that NO ONE in the Writers Room or ABC has noticed this.  Or maybe they just don't care.  And certainly, no one ever tweets about this to Adam.  As I said in the Spoilers thread, I have even tried to say it in a nice way like you did above "I loved the friendship between Emma and MM in the first season... when will we get another episode (or a scene) around that", and nothing.

They don't care, that's why they have Regina learning how to dance from them like in 5a instead of those moments.

[KAOS Agent]

Last month, there was a Harlequin romance titled, "A Child Claimed by Gold" which drew my attention due to its convenient fit with the ongoing Rumbelle baby drama on Once. It got better on closer review because the plot of the story was a young woman named Emma, who grew up in foster care, who was pretty much manipulated and lied to by an older, wealthy man. Which basically has nothing to do with anything other than being highly amusing, but it got me thinking about some of the relationships on this show because it made me consider the idea of Golden Swan. Which, no. However, is there any character out there who would offer a balanced relationship for Gold? Zelena and the Evil Queen both have the hots for him and both have magic, but he manipulates and lies to them just as easily as Belle. Neither would work as a match for Rumpel. What if Belle had magic as powerful as Rumpel? Would that relationship seem more palatable with a better power balance? Is there any character out there who would work as a viable love interest for Rumpel in his present incarnation? Even Belle is over the whole he's got a good heart thing at this point (although I'm sure she'll cave again in 6B). That being the case, would Rumpel be better off with an evil character? Would an evil Belle make for the ultimate couple? I figure this show is done, so if Rumpel doesn't die and they need a happy ending, I would dig evil Rumbelle riding off into the sunset because that would be a hell of a lot more believable than Rumpel ever being happy giving up power and/or actually sticking with the whole not being evil thing. 

Edited February 11, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple has had a serious identity crisis for a while. The writers can never seem to decide whether or not they want to keep him as a villain. They love his evil antics, but they're also impressed by the idea of redeeming him. Belle complicates matters, because her existence has always implied that Rumple has potential for good. The reality is, either Rumple needs to change for Belle or she needs to change for him. They can't accept each other, and that's why their relationship has no real leg to stand on. Rumple had a better chance with Lacey.

Edited February 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

16 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Rumple has had a serious identity crisis for a while. The writers can never seem to decide whether or not they want to keep him as a villain. They love his evil antics, but they're also impressed by the idea of redeeming him. Belle complicates matters, because her existence has always implied that Rumple has potential for good. The reality is, either Rumple needs to change for Belle or she needs to change for him. They can't accept each other, and that's why their relationship has no real leg to stand on. Rumple had a better chance with Lacey.

The disturbing thing is that A&E thought that "Changelings" provided a huge watershed moment for Rumple and Belle.  You can tell their tone-deafness by Belle's line, "What have WE done to each other" in the winter finale.  Now they're on the "same" side again and their love will bloom like the flowers poking out of the winter snow.  

[andromeda331]

20 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Last month, there was a Harlequin romance titled, "A Child Claimed by Gold" which drew my attention due to its convenient fit with the ongoing Rumbelle baby drama on Once. It got better on closer review because the plot of the story was a young woman named Emma, who grew up in foster care, who was pretty much manipulated and lied to by an older, wealthy man. Which basically has nothing to do with anything other than being highly amusing, but it got me thinking about some of the relationships on this show because it made me consider the idea of Golden Swan. Which, no. However, is there any character out there who would offer a balanced relationship for Gold? Zelena and the Evil Queen both have the hots for him and both have magic, but he manipulates and lies to them just as easily as Belle. Neither would work as a match for Rumpel. What if Belle had magic as powerful as Rumpel? Would that relationship seem more palatable with a better power balance? Is there any character out there who would work as a viable love interest for Rumpel in his present incarnation? Even Belle is over the whole he's got a good heart thing at this point (although I'm sure she'll cave again in 6B). That being the case, would Rumpel be better off with an evil character? Would an evil Belle make for the ultimate couple? I figure this show is done, so if Rumpel doesn't die and they need a happy ending, I would dig evil Rumbelle riding off into the sunset because that would be a hell of a lot more believable than Rumpel ever being happy giving up power and/or actually sticking with the whole not being evil thing. 

The closest would probably Cora. She had power and could hold her own against Rumple. He definitely wouldn't be able to put her to sleep and sneak off to be bad. She'd probably join in unless it went against her own plans.

[KingOfHearts]

Writers' logic: If Cora had a thing for Rumple, surely both her daughters did too at different points for different reasons. I don't think genetics work like that. I can deal either either Zelena or Regina having a thing for him, but not both. The Mills family is just way too homogeneous. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:59 AM, KingOfHearts said:

Rumple has had a serious identity crisis for a while. The writers can never seem to decide whether or not they want to keep him as a villain. They love his evil antics, but they're also impressed by the idea of redeeming him. Belle complicates matters, because her existence has always implied that Rumple has potential for good. The reality is, either Rumple needs to change for Belle or she needs to change for him. They can't accept each other, and that's why their relationship has no real leg to stand on. Rumple had a better chance with Lacey.

Rumple has had an identity crisis since the beginning of the show.  His entire motivation was his identity crisis.  That is why Storybrooke exists.  He wanted to find Bae and show him that he's not a coward anymore and get some kind of validation.  At best, I think Belle was a surrogate to believe that there was some good in Rumple while he bounced back and forth between being the Dark One and the impulses that drove him to want the power in the first place (which was basically wanting to be seen as a brave man in the eyes of his son and everyone else...a hero). 

The problem they are having now is that they dropped the identity crisis.  He got a form of reconciliation in Bae's death and doesn't need Belle to assuage that guilt.  He chose to be the Dark One again.  He flat out told Belle that he loved power more than her and she'd just have to get over it. I thought that was a very brave thing to do narratively for Rumple to acknowledge who he is and not apologize for it any longer.  But also extremely stupid if they didn't plan to end Rumbelle once and for all. 

They are just going to reset the whole Underworld and 6A arc with the idea that Rumple has the potential for good because of how he feels about his mother corrupting Gideon. Its basically the writers realizing that Rumple with an identity crisis works better for them than Rumple knowing he's a villain and being ok with it. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Rumple has had an identity crisis since the beginning of the show.  

It's not a problem if Rumple has the identity crisis, but if the writers have one on his behalf, it's an issue. His struggle between good and evil, while attempting to justify his means through ends, made his character awesome for three seasons. The real problem now is, the writers try to convince us he's different things. One minute, they shove "he's the purest hero to ever pure" down our throats, and the next they want us to hate him for some betrayal. They want us to hope for Rumpbelle's future, but they also want Rumple to be a conniving baddie who shacks up with the Evil Queen. But, "You can't have everything, dearie!" If Rumple wants both power and Belle, isn't he undermining the very lesson he's always trying to teach Regina? 

I can tolerate Rumple if he's just a jerk trying to manipulate everyone. (Though it just makes Belle look like a bigger idiot.) But, it really grates on me when he makes the "right choice" in something like 6x09, and we're back to wishywashy world where the writers totally believe he's still redeemable. They really think they can sway our emotions that easily.

Edited February 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

If Rumpel is willing to sacrifice his power for his son, what does that say about his relationship with Belle when he refused to do the same for her? And given his constant reversals in the power game, I'd give him maybe a month at the outside before he goes out and starts working to regain whatever he may have given up. I can't see a believable happily ever after for Rumpel & Belle because I know he could never stick with being powerless and Belle is clearly not his top priority.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 2/11/2017 at 0:20 AM, KAOS Agent said:

Would an evil Belle make for the ultimate couple? I figure this show is done, so if Rumpel doesn't die and they need a happy ending, I would dig evil Rumbelle riding off into the sunset because that would be a hell of a lot more believable than Rumpel ever being happy giving up power and/or actually sticking with the whole not being evil thing. 

I doubt they could make Belle evil permanently because of Disney.  That being said, evil Belle and Rumple would be a lot more palatable to me than current Belle and Rumple.  But why does Rumple need a happy ending?  Belle does, sure.  Maybe her happy ending could be like Elsa's: she realizes she doesn't need a man, especially Rumple, to make her happy.  

[Camera One]

They won't make Belle evil.  Even in 6A ("Heartless"), she told everyone that "[Rumple]'s not acting like the man he could be."  Duh, I'm sure everyone thought when they heard that.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

If Rumpel is willing to sacrifice his power for his son, what does that say about his relationship with Belle when he refused to do the same for her? And given his constant reversals in the power game, I'd give him maybe a month at the outside before he goes out and starts working to regain whatever he may have given up. I can't see a believable happily ever after for Rumpel & Belle because I know he could never stick with being powerless and Belle is clearly not his top priority.

While I completely agree with you and its why I can't get behind them as a couple, I do think that since they decided to make Belle and Rumple Beauty and the Beast that ultimately they will happy ending the Dark One away in the last three seconds that Rumple is on the show and ignore everything that came before that moment.

Edited February 13, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

They think they can switch the emotional switch in us automatically.  In the 6A premiere, they had another "Beauty and the Beast" dance to reel us in, before separating them for another half-season.  What a shame, eh?  Such potential for an epic love with minor issues of contention like trying to leave all their friends stranded in hell or using handcuffs to limit mobility and free will.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

These guys are not the Jedi Masters they believe themselves to be. Their powers of persuasion are seriously lacking.

[Curio]

We were discussing how the writers totally dropped Zelena and Regina's relationship progression this season in another thread. The "Sisters" episode made it seem like Regina/Zelena were going to be the new power couple in the writing room, and now it's like that episode never existed. The writers and actors always talk up the Emma/Regina and Snow/Regina relationships by saying how "It's so great to have two women be friends with each other instead of enemies. Too many shows would pit these women against each other, but not OUAT!" But that only works for the select few relationships Regina has with Snow and Emma. Apparently, they don't mind pitting Zelena and Regina against each other, they don't mind not developing Snow and Emma's relationship further, Belle barely has any interaction with Emma, and Zelena rarely gets to interact with Snow and Emma, and when she does, it's adversarial. So the whole "Yay, female friendship power!" only works if you're talking about a select few relationships on this show. And of course those select few relationships required the women who were most wronged doing most of the work in creating the friendship with the person who still isn't all that nice to them.

I also thought it was kind of funny during the recent convention Colin and Jennifer attended where Jen was describing what she liked about Captain Swan. It was a very PC answer about how "Most shows would push and pull a romantic couple apart for seasons instead of just keeping them together, but not OUAT!" I don't think Jen meant to throw any shade towards some of the other couples on the show, but what she described really only applies to Snowing and Captain Swan. The writers are definitely still guilty of pulling that push/pull/separation stuff with Rumbelle and Outlaw Queen.

[Camera One]

Quote

The "Sisters" episode made it seem like Regina/Zelena were going to be the new power couple in the writing room, and now it's like that episode never existed.

I think the Writers are keeping Regina/Zelena apart because they value this relationship so much.  If they were happy, they would be sidelined.  A&E is not original enough to think of how they could co-exist in an unboring way, so they broke them up again. They like writing Zelena "wicked" and they think Zelena vs. Regina results in lots of zingers, so they think this is entertainment at its height.  Plus they seriously think that we are hanging on our seats wanting them to be BFFs again.

Regina/Emma and Regina/Snow serve a different purpose.  They're for Regina to clean her shoes when she comes in.  Zelena can't be given that treatment, since she is so sassy.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

This interview is pretty fascinating. Emma Watson addresses the concern that the Beauty and the Beast fairy tale is about Stockholm Syndrome. Initially, when I saw the headline, I thought it was going to be some sort of political commentary. (Which celebrities seldom shy away from.) However, upon actually watching it, it was clear she had done her research. She was worried about sending the wrong message too at first, but she later built a solid argument. I've linked it below.

Now compare that with Rumpbelle. Belle has stuck with her abusive boyfriend, thinking she could "fix" him. Even in Skin Deep, she wanted to kiss him to remove the curse. But in the Disney film, for instance, Belle never has the intention to do that. In fact, I don't seem to remember her even knowing about the nature of his curse. She didn't TLK him to be a hero. She thought he was dead, and she mourned for him selflessly. She never excused his behavior. While OUAT Belle appeared to be repulsed by Rumple's transgressions at first, we learned later she was actually attracted to his "dark parts". Her wanting to save him was of a selfish nature when you really look at it. She was trying to sweep her dark impulses under the rug and be the "hero". (Which Rumple has been right about.) Over time, she has slowly adopted or accepted some of his traits, which aligns with the symptoms of Stockholm, despite her denial.

OUAT Belle is not independent, either. She is codependent with Rumple, caught in a textbook example of an abusive relationship. Her choices almost always revolve around Rumple. We've seen a little bit of a break from that with Gideon, but her fetus had to drag her into it. 

[Camera One]

I made a post about her interview in the Belle thread a few days ago.  The more flashbacks they make, the more nonsensical the Rumbelle relationship becomes.  And yet in the present-day, Belle in 6A still says lines like Rumple isn't acting like the man he can be, in front of all the other characters.  

[KingOfHearts]

16 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I made a post about her interview in the Belle thread a few days ago.  The more flashbacks they make, the more nonsensical the Rumbelle relationship becomes.  And yet in the present-day, Belle in 6A still says lines like Rumple isn't acting like the man he can be, in front of all the other characters.  

I had forgotten about your post, @Camera One. I thought the Rumpbelle relationship was getting somewhere in 5B, when Belle killed Gaston. I wanted to see her go dark and embrace the true colors she had been hiding. In 6A, like you said, we went back to, "What have WE done to each other" and "He's not acting like the man he can be", which is irritating on so many levels. Disney probably wouldn't let Belle go evil for Rumple. But if that's the case, either they need to break up for good, Rumple needs to redeem himself, or Rumple needs to die.

[Camera One]

As with the Regina/Graham relationship, I think A&E really does think that BOTH Belle and Rumple bears blame for the relationship not working out.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

This interview is pretty fascinating. Emma Watson addresses the concern that the Beauty and the Beast fairy tale is about Stockholm Syndrome.

Emma Watson is just all kinds of awesome.  :)

[Shanna Marie]

Something was said in the discussion about the future of the series about the way Emma runs off to Regina after major moments between her and Hook, and that got me started thinking and looking it up, and oh boy, it's not just 'shipper paranoia. It's a pattern that every major CS relationship moment has to be followed immediately by significant screen time between Emma and Regina.

The end of season 3: Emma and Hook have their first real kiss. Instead of ending on that note, we have Emma leaving him to go introduce Marian to Regina. In the following episode at the beginning of the season, we have Emma avoiding Hook because she feels bad about Regina.

Early in 4A: The episode in which Emma and Hook go on their first date is immediately followed by "Shattered Glass," in which Emma and Regina spend the entire time searching the forest together, with Emma begging Regina to be her friend and Regina reluctantly admitting that she doesn't want to kill Emma (aw, true love). I'm pretty sure there's more interaction and screen time devoted to Regina and Emma in this episode than was devoted to Emma and Hook on their first date.

The 4A finale: The infamous "here's your heart, good thing you didn't die, gotta go have shots with Regina" moment.

The 4B finale: Emma's first "I love you" comes as she's sacrificing herself for Regina/the town (depending on which interview you read). Followed by the 5 premiere, in which Regina magically knows the significance of and how to find Emma's baby blanket and Emma entrusts Regina with the dagger.

During 5A, the episode in which Emma and Hook go on their horseback ride that leads to the makeout session in a field of flowers is followed immediately by the episode in which Regina and Emma work together to free Merlin, and Emma gets to watch Regina's memories of Daniel's death.

The end of 5B: Hook comes back from the dead, and Emma runs off to check on Regina, then Emma and Regina go on a road trip together.

[KingOfHearts]

It just occurred to me - the Regina/Fake Robin stuff is a repeat of Rumple/Lacey. Regina has lost her moral-compass-cheerleading-enabler love interest, and she's not attracted to the dark version because he doesn't make her feel like a validated hero. She has reacted to him the same way Rumple initially reacted to Lacey. Rumple's dark side was what ended up embracing her, and I think that will happen here in the form of the Evil Queen.

If you look at it this way, Regina is getting payback for giving Belle fake memories to twist the knife in Rumple's wound.

Edited March 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I'm not actually sure where the show is going with the Regina/Not!Robin thing.  Which is weird, because usually it's so predictable.   I do think it's some sort of payback though.  But it's debatable as to whether A&E actually meant it to be payback.  

[Camera One]

I feel it's just another "lesson" Regina has to learn, that she's her own worst enemy, that so many bad things happen to her even though she tries so hard, etc.  Adam told OQ fans he has a great story lined up for them, so this wasn't really the direction I expected it would go in, but who knows.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

But what is the "lesson" this time?  In the author story line, it was obvious (to me, and it seems to most folk on here anyway).  I'm not really seeing a "lesson" in this story.  Except: don't bring back people from other realms/worlds.   Which, honestly - Emma needs to learn just as much.  'That she's her own worst enemy' doesn't seem to fit.  

[Camera One]

I'm assuming the lesson is "let go of the past"?  Because her desire to bring back Robin was her desire to hang on to the past.  Once she learns the lesson, she can give Zelena a hug and skip down Cherry Tree Lane hand-in-hand, and don't forget Snow and Emma too.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Ah, that makes sense since Hook's lesson is also that he has to let go of the past (thought he already had, see my post in the spoiler thread).  Thanks!  Yup, it will be about making up with Zelena - before or after she goes back to Oz?

[Free]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm assuming the lesson is "let go of the past"?  Because her desire to bring back Robin was her desire to hang on to the past.  Once she learns the lesson, she can give Zelena a hug and skip down Cherry Tree Lane hand-in-hand, and don't forget Snow and Emma too.

Something the writers can't seem to learn, otherwise they wouldn't keep rehashing these plots.

[InsertWordHere]

Even if they took away the pointless angst in the CS proposal, it would have still been guilty of being bland as hell. Hook, captain of verbose declarations, limiting himself to a simple "Emma Swan, will you marry me?" I don't think so. I'm hoping he is more grandiose when this stupid secret isn't hanging around his neck and I don't even normally like sweeping grand gesture proposals, but this is Hook and he totally does. Sadly, I don't think this show will even have the time to fix it, much less the inclination. Now that I think of it, none of the proposals on this "romantic" show have been great. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[Shanna Marie]

14 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Even if they took away the pointless angst in the CS proposal, it would have still been guilty of being bland as hell. Hook, captain of verbose declarations, limiting himself to a simple "Emma Swan, will you marry me?" I don't think so. I'm hoping he is more grandiose when this stupid secret isn't hanging around his neck and I don't even normally like sweeping grand gesture proposals, but this is Hook and he totally does.

Well, this is the guy who made a big deal out of being an expert at planning dates, and his grand gesture first date was ... dinner at the local Italian restaurant.

[InsertWordHere]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Well, this is the guy who made a big deal out of being an expert at planning dates, and his grand gesture first date was ... dinner at the local Italian restaurant.

Good point. I was just thinking about how all the dates have been as boring as the proposals. And their date ended up the same way as the proposal did. Gosh, I just wanted an adventure couple. It's not that hard. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, InsertWordHere said:

Gosh, I just wanted an adventure couple. It's not that hard. 

He planned a better first date with Henry, when he "borrowed" a boat and then they had a campfire. Though I guess the main reason behind that was getting Henry out of the way while Zelena was on the rampage. But still, yeah, Hook's idea of a first date seems more like that -- a moonlight sail, a picnic on the beach -- than a generic Italian dinner date. That was basically every first date of my 20s. It's the go-to for "I want to look romantic but don't want to put any thought into it." Not that I'm complaining too much because I love Italian food, but if I'm dating Captain Freaking Hook, I'd want something a little more interesting.

[Curio]

What's even more pathetic is that the Italian restaurant date is literally the only date we've ever seen Emma and Hook go on. It has literally been YEARS since Emma and Hook have gotten a proper date night together on screen.

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, Curio said:

What's even more pathetic is that the Italian restaurant date is literally the only date we've ever seen Emma and Hook go on.

I think you can also count the horseback ride to the field of flowers. That seems more Hook's style.

Then there was the time she kidnapped him in his own boat with takeout from Granny's, but since that was a ruse to get his sword, we won't count that one.

[Rumsy4]

I think in that episode, Hook was trying to show Emma that he fit in with her world. Hence the modern clothes, the "conventional" date, etc.. And Emma too made an effort to show Hook that she had a softer side as well, and wasn't just a punch-you-in-the-face gal. Hence the soft pink dress and tied-up hair, etc.. We got the grand romantic scenes in 5A in Camelot for CS, even with the Dark Oneness of it all. But I do agree that the writers missed out on writing piratey dates for the duo.

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think you can also count the horseback ride to the field of flowers. That seems more Hook's style.

Then there was the time she kidnapped him in his own boat with takeout from Granny's, but since that was a ruse to get his sword, we won't count that one.

Yeah, it's hard for me to count those as actual dates because they weren't planned in advance as nice, romantic events where the only goal is to spend time with each other and get to know one another better. The horse ride, while romantic, was just a spur of the moment thing Hook thought of to try and get rid of Rumple from Emma's head. I would count Emma making popcorn with melted milk duds as a date, but again, it happened off screen.

When's the last time ANY couple on this show had a proper date night where it was planned in advance and there wasn't any ulterior motive behind the date except for wanting to spend time with that person?

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Curio said:

When's the last time ANY couple on this show had a proper date night where it was planned in advance and there wasn't any ulterior motive behind the date except for wanting to spend time with that person?

Henry and Violet's "Sixteen Candles" date at Granny's when they missed the school dance. And then there was the date he planned in which he got friendzoned thanks to Emma's meddling.

Otherwise, Rumple and Lacey had a date, the one that ended with him beating the hell out of Nottingham. Aw, how romantic.

Do we count the various trysts and liaisons when David and Mary Margaret were fooling around?

I guess there was Robin and Regina's romantic fireside picnic

[Amerilla]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Well, this is the guy who made a big deal out of being an expert at planning dates, and his grand gesture first date was ... dinner at the local Italian restaurant.

You know who I really feel sorry for? Mrs. Horowitz and Mrs. Kitsis. 'Cause those are two ladies who endured a bunch of bad dates and probably had to handle all their wedding planning themselves.

Obviously, A&E don't write every episode, but they do convey their attitude to the writers they have hired to turn their "vision" into scripts. What they've conveyed, from the very beginning, is that they don't really care much about dates or engagements or weddings or romance or relationship-building beyond the bare minimum it takes to move the plot hither and yon. (Or "yawn," if you prefer.)

The show would likely look much different if the showrunners were Adele Horowitz and Edwina Kitsis. 

[Curio]

11 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

Obviously, A&E don't write every episode, but they do convey their attitude to the writers they have hired to turn their "vision" into scripts. What they've conveyed, from the very beginning, is that they don't really care much about dates or engagements or weddings or romance or relationship-building beyond the bare minimum it takes to move the plot hither and yon. (Or "yawn," if you prefer.)

Exactly. There's a reason we spent for-freaking-ever watching half of OUAT's budget get blown on that First Ogres' War battle, yet their main character got less than two minutes to cram in a marriage proposal to her True Love™. Part of me wonders why the heck A&E wanted to create a show about True Love and fairy tales when it's obvious that they'd much rather be writing about ogre battles and non-romantic stuff.

[Shanna Marie]

You know, they don't even have to have official dates to show couple moments. We learned last week that Emma has supposedly had those books and things in her shed all this time, and I guess offscreen she's been researching how to break her parents' curse (when she's not been off canoeing). We could have had scenes of Hook and Emma snuggled on the sofa, going through the books together, or sitting at the kitchen table, doing research and maybe talking a bit. Or finishing up a dinner together, with some humor about him getting out of having to wash the dishes since he only has one hand, leading into them getting out the books and getting to work, with some jokes about what hot date nights they're having now that they're living together.

[Curio]

Or, you know, actually show us on screen the popcorn with melted milk duds or the hot-buttered rum with pizza or Chinese food in front of their fireplace. This show is the total definition of "tell don't show."

[Amerilla]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Part of me wonders why the heck A&E wanted to create a show about True Love and fairy tales when it's obvious that they'd much rather be writing about ogre battles and non-romantic stuff.

 

 

 

 

See, I don't think they did want to write a romance, or at least no more romance than was necessary to make babies. For the most part, the first two seasons, and well into the third, were focused on parents and children. Emma and Snow. Emma and Henry. Emma and Charming. Regina and Henry. Regina and Snow. Regina and Cora. Snow and Eva.  Rumpel and Baelfire.

Even a lot of the secondary stories had a heavy focus on parent-child relationships:  Gepetto and Pinocchio, Hansel and Gretel and their father, Cinderella and her baby, Ruby and Granny, Archie and his parents, Cora and her father, Zelena and her father. Flashback Whale and his father and brother. Even freakin' PAN turns out to be a father underneath. 

But in Season 3, they start to shift Emma and Regina into romances, exile Snowing to new parenthood, and kill off Bae. Emma and Regina aren't focused on being moms as much, Snow and Charming are mostly absent or focusing (offscreen) on Snowflake, and Rumpel simply has no emotional core without Bae. It was a radical shift in they story's emotional equilibrium that even good writers might have had trouble navigating. These are not good writers.  

One of my lingering behind-the-scenes questions is: was it A&E's choice to move away from this parent-child focus, or was it the network?

Edited March 20, 2017 by Amerilla
Complete thoughts are better than incomplete thoughts

[OnceUponAJen]

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

He planned a better first date with Henry, when he "borrowed" a boat and then they had a campfire. Though I guess the main reason behind that was getting Henry out of the way while Zelena was on the rampage. But still, yeah, Hook's idea of a first date seems more like that -- a moonlight sail, a picnic on the beach -- than a generic Italian dinner date. That was basically every first date of my 20s. It's the go-to for "I want to look romantic but don't want to put any thought into it." Not that I'm complaining too much because I love Italian food, but if I'm dating Captain Freaking Hook, I'd want something a little more interesting.

They were just going for the Lady and the Tramp angle with that Italian restaurant date.  I agree though.....I see Hook being one to make these grand sweeping gestures since he has such a propensity towards passionate devotion to whatever he focuses on.

[Curio]

3 hours ago, Amerilla said:

One of my lingering behind-the-scenes questions is: was it A&E's choice to move away from this parent-child focus, or was it the network?

Well, it's not like they totally went away from it, it's just that they focused on the relationships no one wanted to see. (Or they botched the stories.) Regina and Henry still get a ton of focus and the Season 4 and Season 5 finales were dedicated to them. 4B focused a lot on Mal and Lily's relationship and the stupid eggnapping stuff with the Charmings and Emma. 5B was a lot of Regina/Zelena/Cora drama. And now we have the Gideon/Rumple/Belle drama that seems to be taking over Season 6.