Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Mari]

32 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I don't really buy that. The need for status is more a characteristic of Cora (or Anastasia) than Regina. Regina would have been satisfied with Daniel. 

It's a lot easier to not care about status when you already have it.  Regina had it her entire life.  Going with Daniel and losing her status would likely have changed her perspective on that a little.

Plus, it's not just status that Regina would have lost, though.  And it's true that status itself is not one of the things that seems to have been a priority for early Regina.

But, early Regina was a pampered princess, too.  Her mother was not as loving as Snow's apparently was, but Regina was raised in a palace, with servants and beautiful dresses, and all of the other things that go with being the granddaughter of a king, with a prince for a father and a mother who was responsible for making their kingdom very, very rich.  (The whole reason that Cora was able to marry Henry.)

I firmly believe that Regina cared for Daniel.  But, would that love have lasted in a life together, if that life lacked all of the comforts and necessities Regina was used to, and took for granted?   When they were hungry, and ragged, and couldn't afford a home or medical care? Would that life together have lasted, minus the satisfaction that Regina would have gotten from knowing she had something her mother didn't want her to have?

Would she have survived?  Most likely.  Would the relationship have survived?  I don't know.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Mari
added something I forgot.

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

The need for status is more a characteristic of Cora (or Anastasia) than Regina. 

I think Regina still cares about her status, but it's just not as outwardly obvious as Cora or Anastasia. Why does Regina continue to live in her mansion that she only received because of dark magic? Why was she never shown sleeping over with Robin in his tent in the forest? Sure, she'd go visit him to tell him a message, but we've never seen Mayor Regina stretch out of her comfort zone and rough it out for long period of time outside of her luxury. Neverland isn't a good gauge because everyone was forced to wander the forest to save Henry's life. If Regina truly didn't care about her status she wouldn't keep up with her expensive wardrobes, she wouldn't have cared to become mayor again after Snow got booted from the position, she wouldn't constantly refer to herself as a queen, she wouldn't mock Emma for her lifestyle choices, and her hobbies would include taking camping trips with Robin. But we don't see Regina doing any "commoner" activities, so we can't just assume that Regina would easily or willingly adapt to a simpler style of life when all we've ever seen her do is live in luxury. 

[Shanna Marie]

Regina has a history of not being content. She keeps redefining what her happy ending is when she gets her previous happy ending. All she needs to be happy is this, and then she gets this and isn't happy, so then all she needs for her happy ending is that, and she gets that and isn't happy. She doesn't seem to be truly aware of and appreciative of what she has at the moment because all she can think about is what she doesn't have, and she's bad at always blaming something or someone outside herself for her unhappiness (Snow, the Author). She didn't learn that she was her own worst enemy until much later, and even still, she keeps blaming others or dissociates the part of herself she blames. So I can see her relationship with Daniel working out that way. While she was living under Cora's thumb, she thought that all she needed was to be with Daniel and away from Cora, and she'd be happy. It's very likely that if she got that, she would have soon become dissatisfied and wanted something else, possibly blaming Daniel for her unhappiness. Then there's the fact that even sweet, innocent young Regina had the ingredients to become the Evil Queen. No matter how much they try to pretend that was a separate identity, it was Regina who made the choices that led to her becoming that, and she'd have been the same person with or without Daniel. It just might have been other things that triggered it. It could have been a festering dissatisfaction with her life when being with Daniel didn't turn out to solve all her problems and make her totally happy. It could have been that once she got away from Cora she became obsessed with bringing Cora down, so she started to neglect Daniel or turned him off when he didn't like that side of her. These aspects of her personality were what made her easy prey for Rumple, so he probably could have found some way to manipulate her into casting the curse for some reason if he was able to convince her it was the key to her ultimate happiness.

[TheGreenKnight]

9 hours ago, Curio said:

I think Regina still cares about her status, but it's just not as outwardly obvious as Cora or Anastasia. Why does Regina continue to live in her mansion that she only received because of dark magic? Why was she never shown sleeping over with Robin in his tent in the forest? Sure, she'd go visit him to tell him a message, but we've never seen Mayor Regina stretch out of her comfort zone and rough it out for long period of time outside of her luxury. Neverland isn't a good gauge because everyone was forced to wander the forest to save Henry's life. If Regina truly didn't care about her status she wouldn't keep up with her expensive wardrobes, she wouldn't have cared to become mayor again after Snow got booted from the position, she wouldn't constantly refer to herself as a queen, she wouldn't mock Emma for her lifestyle choices, and her hobbies would include taking camping trips with Robin. But we don't see Regina doing any "commoner" activities, so we can't just assume that Regina would easily or willingly adapt to a simpler style of life when all we've ever seen her do is live in luxury. 

All of this definitely applies to Regina after Daniel dies and after she's spent a lifetime alone as the Queen, but I don't see any of those qualities in early Regina. There's nothing about her at that point that would indicate that her dresses and servants would have ever been more important than her relationship. I guess I don't think we can assume what she could've been like based on what her personality is long after the fact, considering there was a pretty huge personality shift after Daniel's death. I don't think Regina would have ever been the Evil Queen without that happening.

Edited September 18, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KAOS Agent]

To me, I look at all kinds of peasant characters on this show and how they and their relationships suffered. Ruth loved her twins, but love wasn't enough to keep food in their bellies. They gave up their child to keep everyone alive and still lived on the edge of subsistence. This decision destroyed her and her husband. He ended up a drunk and they fought all the time. Robin loved Marian, but he too was struggling to provide for his wife and child and eventually had to return to thievery as well. He believed that lifestyle is what led to his wife's death. Milah and Rumpel weren't in love, but they stuck together for their son. However, when their idiot child was bitten by a snake, the lack of money to afford a healer and subsequent series of events that allowed Rumpel to get the antidote put the final nail in the coffin of their relationship. These are all people who were raised in poverty. They were used to hard living and they still struggled because life got in the way. Being hungry changes your mood and personality. Being cold and dirty and tired leaves you open to illness. Being poor means you can't afford to buy medicine for your sick child. Misery, poverty & starvation are huge barriers to happiness. When you love someone, you want the best for them. If there is opportunity to better (or simply save) the lives of your loved ones, you take it. On this show, it seems the price is always the relationship with the people whose lives you're trying to improve.

[Dianthus]

This is what really sets Hook and Emma apart, IMO. They both know what it means to grow up rootless. They're from very different worlds, but the orphan thing transcends even that. It's like calling to like. 

[YaddaYadda]

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

When you love someone, you want the best for them. If there is opportunity to better (or simply save) the lives of your loved ones, you take it. On this show, it seems the price is always the relationship with the people whose lives you're trying to improve.

Although you can apply this to Hook and his brother. It's not a romantic relationship, but it's a really important one nonetheless, and while Hook was shocked and disappointed by what Liam did, he forgave him and that set them both free from their own demons.

Otherwise, yes to everything else in your post. 

[kitticup]

This has been an interesting discussion.  I completely agree poverty changes you.  You are focused on surviving not thriving and the everyday battle to survive can get in the way of happiness.  Having wealth gives you confidence that a poor person doesn't necessarily have. 

However, I think there is one more element with Regina.  She wants to be deeply loved and doesn't understand why she isn't.  Look at that ball in Camelot, to me , she seemed so happy to feel like the people loved and appreciated her.  Her lack of motherly love has twisted her.  She wants love but is very selfish about it so she becomes cruel when she doesn't get it.  She doesn't know how to love really and doesn't understand to get love you have to give love.   She is learning.  It is too bad they didn't use Robin to slowly bring her out of her hardness and to have her learn to love.  This is a little different from Emmma because could give her heart to another, but walled herself up.   for me Regina does not know how to give her heart to really love.

Edited September 19, 2016 by kitticup

[Dianthus]

That's where things get tricky. Cora "loved" her daughter and wanted what was best for her, but what Regina actually wanted didn't really enter into it. Daniel and Regina had a fairly narrow path to success IMO, but I could see it, maybe, with their shared (?) love of horses. Even if they could've managed to build something successful, I don't know that it would've been enough for overbearing Cora.

[Rumsy4]

With the season premiere, I've finally given up hope of Snow/Emma bonding scenes. It's clear that Snow has adopted Regina. With Robin gone, most of Regina's tete-a-tete scenes are going to be with Snow or Emma, while Zelena and EQ!Regina are going to be off chewing scenery together. According to MM, it took a while before Emma and she could be totally honest with each other. Um... what was she talking about?? Emma is keeping a frigging big secret from her now, and she was keeping secrets from her all through Season 5, while Snow was the one keeping secrets from her daughter in S4. I took the line as the writers signaling to the viewers that everything is fine between Emma and her mother, and not to expect anything more from that relationship. 

[Camera One]

Quote

 

With the season premiere, I've finally given up hope of Snow/Emma bonding scenes.

The sad thing is this is/was the main reason I watch the show.  As I said in the ratings thread, because A&E clearly does not care about the Snow/Emma relationship at all, and we're only going to get Regina/Snow or Regina/Emma, I no longer care if the show becomes full-on guest stars.  I'd rather see Snow and Emma interacting with guest stars than Regina at this point.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Free]

22 hours ago, Camera One said:

The sad thing is this is/was the main reason I watch the show.  As I said in the ratings thread, because A&E clearly does not care about the Snow/Emma relationship at all, and we're only going to get Regina/Snow or Regina/Emma, I no longer care if the show becomes full-on guest stars.  I'd rather see Snow and Emma interacting with guest stars than Regina at this point.

That's what should've happened after the curse broke.

[InsertWordHere]

I'm trying not to think about that Golden Queen scene too much, and I apologize for making anyone else think about it, but did they really need to have Regina paraphrase Hook's "That's when the fun begins" when she was trying to seduce Gold? 

Also, it's been almost three full seasons since Hook said that line. I'm still waiting for the fun. 

[Camera One]

I felt a little bit of chemistry between Hook and Belle.  That could have been an interesting relationship since Hook is actually trying to redeem himself.  If done right, this could be the beginning of a romance, though unlikely given the strong fanbase for the existing couples.

The Evil Queen and Rumple had zero chemistry despite the EQ hamming it up.  So Regina had a thing for Rumple deep down?  

Edited October 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

but did they really need to have Regina paraphrase Hook's "That's when the fun begins" when she was trying to seduce Gold? 

That's exactly what I was thinking. Way to taint a fun and hopeful line into something twisted and dirty, writers. I doubt they even realize they repeated themselves with that line.

[Camera One]

They've already ruined Emma's cupcake birthday with one for Regina and one for Zelena.  Nothing is sacred on this show.

[Curio]

Quote

In 4B, I think it was, Regina came to ask Belle for help in dealing with Rumpel and Belle responded with, "Why the hell should I help you?" Regina kept Belle in an asylum for years; Hook attempted to kill her twice (one of the attempts being shooting her). I would think she'd be a little less blasé about it.

I think Belle gave Regina a harder time because Regina was successful in keeping Belle locked up for 28 years. That's an insanely long time to be cooped up in a small room with little to no human interaction, and the show really missed the ball by making Belle adjust way too quickly to the world around her. (But that's a rant for another thread.) Belle actually had to live through every second of those 28 years of mental torture because of Regina. When you compare that to Hook's failed attempt to kill her, the keyword is failed. I'm not excusing his behavior, but if I'm putting myself in Belle's shoes, I think I'd be more pissed about actually having to go through with something instead of dodging it. 

Obviously, hitting Belle across the face and shooting her in the shoulder are the major offenses here, but Hook received karmic punishments for those actions. We don't see any similar karmic punishment for what Regina did to Belle. Bad Karma: Hook backhanded Belle unconscious in the past. Karmic Punishment: In the present, Belle whacked a slab of wood into Hook's head that knocked him down a flight of steps. She also pushed an entire bookcase on top of him and watched Rumple beat Hook until he bled. Bad Karma: Hook shot Belle in the shoulder, she lost her memories, became Lacy, and she ended up in the hospital. Karmic Punishment: Hook immediately got hit by a car after he shot Belle, he ended up in the hospital with broken ribs, his alter ego was a total wimp who was forced to swab decks, and he later got kicked in the jewels and ended up in jail because a woman lost her memories. Bad Karma: Hook knew Rumple had a fake dagger, but didn't warn Belle that her husband is a douche. Karmic Punishment: Hook got his heart taken from him, became Rumple's meat puppet, and nearly died. There's a very equal karma distribution here that would give Belle some kind of satisfaction for whatever Hook did to her because she can actually see him suffering in front of her—and not only is he suffering, but he’s suffering the same kinds of fates he gave her. There's no karmic equality for Regina and Belle because Regina will never go through 28 years of being locked up in an asylum. Regina can never fully understand the pain she put Belle through, so Belle and Regina aren't on equal footing until Regina lives decades in an asylum. 

Hook, while maybe not the best at giving verbal apologies, has used his actions over the years to try and show Belle that he's sorry for what he's done ever since Season 3 and has attempted to become friends with her—something Regina has not attempted to do. (In fact, after Regina apologized to Belle, she backtracked and took away Belle's agency by forcing her to say things to Rumple she normally wouldn't say with a heart.) The main issue is the writers don't give Hook and Belle enough screen time, so it's kind of blink and you'll miss it friendship moments. In Season 3, Hook helped Belle organize books, she gave him a zinger about his hook, and he wanted to protect her when Neal broke into the shop. In Season 4, Hook helped her research a way to release the fairies, helped around the library, gave her emotional support, and was apparently a close enough friend where she trusted him with the dagger. In Season 5, they drank together and bonded over their loved ones being Dark Ones. In Season 6, he offered his ship to her. Regina hasn’t attempted to get to know Belle on a more personal level like Hook has, so it seems in character for Belle to be more critical of Regina. (I wonder if Belle will ever discover Regina has been hiding lustful thoughts about Rumple. That could be interesting.)

So it’s not really a surprise to me that Belle was so blasé with Hook on the ship. Especially since we just got done with an entire arc where Hook was tortured by hell dogs, whipped by Hades, and was literally a bloody mess in the Underworld...pile that on top of all the other karmic punishments listed earlier...I think Belle knows the guy has suffered enough and is willing to forgive him after all this time has passed. How do you punish a character more than sending them to hell and having them physically and mentally tortured? Belle admitted she has supported Rumple over and over again when she probably shouldn’t have, so it’s not like her hands are entirely clean either. She’s willing to give Hook some slack because being a Dark One’s wife is like being the wife of a gangster where you know they’re probably killing people in their free time but you turn a blind eye.

[Mari]

Your post makes a lot of sense, and those reasons are probably the majority of Belle's logic and emotional response.  But, in addition,  we shouldn't underestimate the Regina "sass" factor.

Speaking from personal experience, I've a coworker that regularly dispenses regular doses of Reginaish sass.  It's obvious she thinks she's joking and being funny.  It's just always at someone else's expense.  Even though I finally shot back and she's moved on to other targets, I avoid her as much as possible.  Some others do, as well.

I have no problem believing that at least part of Belle's attitude towards both of them is that Hook might be dangerous, but he's not going to be spouting random personal insults that he expects you to laugh at.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

 

I think Belle gave Regina a harder time because Regina was successful in keeping Belle locked up for 28 years. That's an insanely long time to be cooped up in a small room with little to no human interaction, and the show really missed the ball by making Belle adjust way too quickly to the world around her. (But that's a rant for another thread.) Belle actually had to live through every second of those 28 years of mental torture because of Regina. When you compare that to Hook's failed attempt to kill her, the keyword is failed. I'm not excusing his behavior, but if I'm putting myself in Belle's shoes, I think I'd be more pissed about actually having to go through with something instead of dodging it. 

Uh... Failed, maybe. But she still felt the pain of being shot--all while she was in the most disoriented state possible. Her reactions the entire time were abject terror.

And I have to disagree about the karmic distribution. As soon as season 2 began, Regina was nearly killed by the wraith (ie, Rumpel's revenge), and this is after Belle asks Rumpel to forgive Regina. Just because it didn't succeed in the attempt doesn't mean Regina didn't suffer any consequences. And, before we go down that rabbit hole (because I'm sure we will), Emma/Snow getting sucked in the portal to save her also helped Cora return to Storybrooke, which Regina didn't want either.

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Hook, while maybe not the best at giving verbal apologies, has used his actions over the years to try and show Belle that he's sorry for what he's done ever since Season 3 and has attempted to become friends with her—something Regina has not attempted to do. (In fact, after Regina apologized to Belle, she backtracked and took away Belle's agency by forcing her to say things to Rumple she normally wouldn't say with a heart.) 

Regina didn't backtrack at all. Belle clearly gave her permission to do this--that was the whole point of her visiting Belle at the shop in the first place.

I don't really think Regina failing to make a personal connection with Belle has anything to do with it. They have nothing in common, that's not a crime. Does Regina even talk to Belle long enough to give her this highly insulting "sass" she's criticized for?

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Regina didn't backtrack at all. Belle clearly gave her permission to do this--that was the whole point of her visiting Belle at the shop in the first place.

That's the reason a lot of us thought she went to the shop, but I think it was debunked either by Adam on Twitter or in the DVD of season 4.

[Mari]

On 10/25/2015 at 11:51 PM, AnotherCastle said:

She did not:

Part of the Heart of Gold recap ABC put up and later deleted since it got moved into the next episode:

x

Interview with Lana Parrilla from the time the the episode was filmed:

source

 

The showrunners confirmed it in different interviews:

 

• http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/30/hot-seat-once-upon-time-bosses-answer-burning-questions
• http://www.ew.com/article/2015/10/16/once-upon-time-spoilers-hot-seat
• http://tvline.com/2015/10/18/once-upon-a-time-season-5-fall-finale-episode/ (In the comments Matt Mitovich also confirms it again)

Adam and Eddy seem to have completly forgotten everything about the scene where Belle gets her heart back or didn't care enough in the first place though, as they seem to be under the impression that Belle doesn't know that Regina took her heart at all and that Regina was the one who 'undid' it. So pretty much zero chance of it being adressed on the show. Unless they retcon it with a flashback of Regina mind wiping Belle again shortly after 4.18 and Belle finding out about her heart again. But yeah, very unlikely it ever come up considering the characters involved and that thanks to A&E forgetting Belle just works with Regina like nothing ever happened.

 

 

Ha!  I knew we'd hashed this out a couple of times in a couple of threads.

[Mathius]

It was debunked in the show too, Belle was totally shocked that Regina had taken her heart when Rumple got Will to steal it back and give it to her.

[KAOS Agent]

If we're comparing why Regina's apology would not be taken as well as Hook's, it's because when Regina apologized it was because she wanted something from Belle and Belle knew it. Hook was putting himself at risk to help Belle. His apology was heartfelt and not pulled out of him because he thought it would get him what he wanted. 

I think that the bigger aspect that affects the Hook/Belle relationship is Rumpel. Hook's actions towards her were never about Belle, but about Rumpelstiltskin. Given all that Belle knows that Rumpel has done to Hook including watching Hook sacrifice himself to end the Darkness all while stealing it all back for himself, it's a huge moment that Hook has given up trying to get back at Rumpel. Belle herself has suffered some pretty steep consequences because of her relationship with Rumpel. She understands what you can be driven to do - like killing Gaston - to protect/avenge those you love. The more Belle experiences the pain that Rumpel has dished out to others, the easier it is for her to forgive them for actions taken when pushed too far. 

[Mrs. de Winter]

11 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

And, before we go down that rabbit hole (because I'm sure we will), Emma/Snow getting sucked in the portal to save her also helped Cora return to Storybrooke, which Regina didn't want either.

She may not have wanted it - but she aligned herself with her and once again tried to hurt others right along side mommy dearest. 

13 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

And I have to disagree about the karmic distribution. As soon as season 2 began, Regina was nearly killed by the wraith (ie, Rumpel's revenge), and this is after Belle asks Rumpel to forgive Regina.

So Belle - having just escape from 28 years of torture (and yes, I consider being locked in a small room like that torture) at Regina's hands didn't ask for Regina's death or for revenge?  Then why is it hard to believe that having spent sometime bonding and becoming friendly with Hook - who has also put in time actively seeking forgiveness - she would be forgiving with him? 

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

She may not have wanted it - but she aligned herself with her and once again tried to hurt others right along side mommy dearest. 

And then had to watch her die. So it's really a moot point--she suffered consequences for what she did to Belle.

2 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

So Belle - having just escape from 28 years of torture (and yes, I consider being locked in a small room like that torture) at Regina's hands didn't ask for Regina's death or for revenge?  Then why is it hard to believe that having spent sometime bonding and becoming friendly with Hook - who has also put in time actively seeking forgiveness - she would be forgiving with him? 

...Because of her reaction to Regina in the shop?? That is what we're talking about. While she was forgiving of Regina/didn't want to seek revenge, she still didn't like Regina. The difference here is that she was forgiving but hateful to Regina vs. forgiving but friendly with Hook. As much as people like to point out how Snow and Emma are insane to be buddy buddy with Regina after everything, I'd say the same argument would apply to Belle and Hook.

[Mathius]

Also, she did get on Hook's case about it back in 3B (the same half-season where she had that altercation with Regina), so it's not like she's always been blasé about it.  She held him to the same standard that she did her.  It's just that now she's friends with him, and not so much with Regina.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I expect it's because Belle has seen Hook beating himself up in the 6 weeks they spent together trying to free the Fairies.  Whereas she doesn't really know Regina that well.  And then again, Belle is an extremely forgiving person, to the point of idiocy.  I actually buy Belle and Hook's friendship more than all the calls for a Hook/Charming bromance.

[Mrs. de Winter]

6 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

...Because of her reaction to Regina in the shop?? That is what we're talking about. While she was forgiving of Regina/didn't want to seek revenge, she still didn't like Regina. The difference here is that she was forgiving but hateful to Regina vs. forgiving but friendly with Hook. As much as people like to point out how Snow and Emma are insane to be buddy buddy with Regina after everything, I'd say the same argument would apply to Belle and Hook.

As Mathius points out - she did not accept Hook's initial overtures either.  But he has continued to try.  Regina went the heart stealing path - again.

8 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

And then had to watch her die. So it's really a moot point--she suffered consequences for what she did to Belle.

Regina losing her mother could have also been prevented if she had not followed her in her plan to kill the Charmings since mommy only died because the Charmings were defending themselves.   Just because Regina suffers it does not excuse the pain she deliberately causes others nor does it cancel it out.  She deliberately and with malice of forethought hurt Belle.  Her mommy dying does not excuse or negate the pain Belle - who never did a damn thing to Regina - suffered at her hands.  

[Mathius]

Cora dying in front of her, and in the way that she did, was certainly some kind of karma, but I can't really say it was karma from what she did to Belle, it seemed more like karma for all the parents she killed or separated from their children in some way...or, more directly, karma for joining up with Cora again and being a remorseless accessory to the murder of Johanna.  Everything she has done to Belle goes largely unpunished to this day.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mathius

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

Regina losing her mother could have also been prevented if she had not followed her in her plan to kill the Charmings since mommy only died because the Charmings were defending themselves.   Just because Regina suffers it does not excuse the pain she deliberately causes others nor does it cancel it out.  She deliberately and with malice of forethought hurt Belle.  Her mommy dying does not excuse or negate the pain Belle - who never did a damn thing to Regina - suffered at her hands.  

Okay, you clearly are not following anything that's being said. People were arguing that Hook suffered consequences for what he did to Belle and that explained the difference in Belle's reaction. I was saying that Regina also suffered consequences for what she did to Belle. "Her mommy dying" wasn't trivial and it was a consequence. So was being attacked by the wraith and Cora coming to Storybrooke in the first place.

As for being condescending--Hook should be forgiven because he broke some ribs and got hit with a board after he nearly tried to kill somebody? Boo ****ing Hoo

Edited October 4, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Shanna Marie]

I think with Belle and Hook there's also some sense of her having been wrong about him. If she'd listened to him back when he told her about Milah, things might have gone very differently for all of them. She refused to consider that he might be telling the truth about Rumple, and she insisted that Hook had a terrible, black heart while Rumple was really and truly good inside and Hook was trying to make him go dark. And then Rumple proved over and over and over again that Hook was right. She started seeing in 3B that Hook wasn't all bad, that he was capable of doing good and that he cared about doing good and helping others. Then she saw in 4A just how awful Rumple was willing to be to Hook. She saw Rumple on the verge of cold-bloodedly murdering Hook after Rumple had spent their entire married life lying to her. After that, she got to know Hook a lot better. She was still calling him out on his temper, but she was also reassuring him that he wasn't to blame for the things Rumple made him do. A lot of really awful things happened to Hook and Emma because of Rumple's darkness. Then in season 5, she has the knowledge that when she came back to town to be with Rumple, Rumple had already become the Dark One again by hijacking Hook's sacrifice and lied to her about that. So, while she's not to blame for what happened to Hook, I could imagine her feeling bad about what's happened to him while also feeling bad for all her support of Rumple. 

In contrast with Regina, Hook's initial insincere apology was so that she'd let him help her with research while keeping an eye on her, while Regina's insincere apology was to get her to help. Regina calls her names like "bookworm" and has made no effort to work with her or be friends with her, while Hook's been nothing but polite to her since season 3, even though she gave him no reason to want to be polite to her. Really, given her frequently stated loyalties to Rumple, her excuses for him, and the things she's said to Hook, Hook would have had every right to just ignore her and let her deal with her own problems (he owes her an apology, not friendship or help), but he's helped her where he could. I actually thought her "why are you helping me?" was a bit out of place in the latest episode because he's already shown that he would and she's already shown trust in him. I guess the big deal here is that helping her might make him a target of Rumple's yet again. It's not just that they're working together or chatting over drinks. He's hiding her from Rumple and keeping Rumple away from his wife. This is the second wife of Rumple's who's taken refuge on the Jolly Roger, and that means things aren't likely to go well for Hook.

[Mrs. de Winter]

5 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Okay, you clearly are not following anything that's being said

I am following just fine and the insulting tone is unnecessary.  I disagree.  Cora's death could be karma for any of the myriad of hateful, deliberately cruel, and criminal things Regina has done - up to and including the deliberate hateful act she was engaged in with said mother at the time of her death - but I see no direct causal relationship to what she did to Belle.  

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

I am following just fine and the insulting tone is unnecessary. 

I agree, but I was thinking more in regards to your posts. Better I just ignore from now on.

[KAOS Agent]

Is there some idea that Cora's death is karma for Regina? Why is this even a thing? Cora was a horrible person who destroyed countless lives and her death was a direct result of her own actions. If my mom killed a bunch of people and was killed while concocting a new plot to kill a bunch more, I wouldn't consider any of that to be a punishment for me. Not to mention, Regina had sent an assassin herself to kill Cora, so I don't see that as karma at all. Maybe I'm confused? Cora and Regina certainly had a messed up relationship, but their individual actions resulted in their ultimate fates and I don't think it had anything to do with karma catching up to Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Karma catching up to Regina would be Robin's death. But even then, he's the one who got it, not Regina, because he stood between her and Percival/Hades.

Edited October 4, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Taking this karma discussion over to the morality thread.

[Mathius]

Quote

I could imagine her feeling bad about what's happened to him while also feeling bad for all her support of Rumple. 

She kind of admitted as much in the recent episode: "You're not the only one trying to make up for past mistakes. I spent way too long trying to make things work with Rumple just because I wanted them to."  That quote right there kind of sums it up: Belle spent too much time seeing what she wanted to see in Rumple, it was a very selfish, immature romantic aspect of her (not hating on Belle for it, she is young and immature, after all, but is growing up now).  She deluded herself into thinking there was a "man behind the beast", when instead it was as Hook and later Rumple himself said: he was a man who was also a beast, there was never any chance of vanquishing the beast part of him because its as much a part of him as the man part is (and Rumple outright saying this again shows that he's far ahead of the curb on these matters compared to Regina.)

Quote

In contrast with Regina, Hook's initial insincere apology was so that she'd let him help her with research while keeping an eye on her

And as I've long said, I never felt that he was insincere about feeling sorry for having done those things to Belle - the issue at the time was his feelings on Belle herself, and vice-versa.  He didn't care for her and she didn't care for him, hence the tone he went with.  It's difficult to apologize to someone you don't like, even when you know you were wrong.  Thankfully, the two of them still were able to be mature enough to tolerate each other help each other out without further incident afterward, but it wasn't until the time between 4A and 4B that they actually became friends, and even then it wasn't a particularly close friendship but has gradually grown, which I appreciate...a friendship between the two needed to be gradual, given their rough past history.  Rushing it would make them...well, it would make them Snow and Regina.

Quote

I actually thought her "why are you helping me?" was a bit out of place in the latest episode because he's already shown that he would and she's already shown trust in him. I guess the big deal here is that helping her might make him a target of Rumple's yet again. It's not just that they're working together or chatting over drinks. He's hiding her from Rumple and keeping Rumple away from his wife. This is the second wife of Rumple's who's taken refuge on the Jolly Roger, and that means things aren't likely to go well for Hook.

Exactly, and again, their friendship wasn't that close to the point Belle would think he'd go that far to help her.  Thus he had to explain that it wasn't just all about their friendship, but also about his guilt for the things he did to her way back when.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Mathius said:

Thankfully, the two of them still were able to be mature enough to tolerate each other help each other out without further incident afterward, but it wasn't until the time between 4A and 4B that they actually became friends, and even then it wasn't a particularly close friendship but has gradually grown, which I appreciate...a friendship between the two needed to be gradual, given their rough past history.  Rushing it would make them...well, it would make them Snow and Regina.

That's true. It would have been really creepy if they'd become insta-friends. I kind of wish we'd seen more of what happened between 4A and 4B. The scene where they started working together would have been interesting. You have to wonder who made the first move and how it came about -- did he go to her to thank her for saving his life and ask for her help with the hat, or did she come to him to see if he was okay and to ask him for details about what happened, and then they decided to work together on undoing everything? We saw them after six weeks of working together when they weren't exactly social friends, but she trusted him enough to give the dagger to a Rumple disguised as him and then tell a Rumple disguised as him all about Will.

Based on what they tell us about her (not that we've actually seen it in practice, but they keep saying it), with her longing for adventure and her placing a high value on heroism, she's probably better suited to someone like Hook than someone like Rumple. She has a fair amount in common with Milah in wanting to see the world and have adventures rather than being tied down. Not that I'm advocating shipping Belle and Hook because I think with their history that would be kind of unhealthy and I think they work better as maybe surrogate siblings with nothing sexual whatsoever. It's just one of the problems with trying to mash Rumple into the Beauty and the Beast story, where she wants adventure and travel and heroism and he lost his first wife because he refused to leave a village where everyone shunned him to move to a different village. She'd be suited to a highly educated, non-pirate sea captain.

[Mathius]

Yeah, I could definitely imagine a romance happening between Belle and young Navy Lt. Killian Jones, but never between Belle and Hook, since there's the whole pirate angle with him and, as we've learned from Gaston, Will Scarlet, and especially Rumple, Belle with any degree of "bad boy" does not make a stable relationship.  As 5x17 showed, she only went for those types because it made her feel like a hero, like the kind in her favorite book.

Belle needs a goodie two-shoes.  Hmm, I wonder if Archie is open to dating?

Edited October 4, 2016 by Mathius

[Curio]

I'm still campaigning for Belle and Milo Thatch. 

[Shanna Marie]

50 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Yeah, I could definitely imagine a romance happening between Belle and young Navy Lt. Killian Jones, but never between Belle and Hook, since there's the whole pirate angle with him and, as we've learned from Gaston, Will Scarlet, and especially Rumple, Belle with any degree of "bad boy" does not make a stable relationship.  As 5x17 showed, she only went for those types because it made her feel like a hero, like the kind in her favorite book.

Yeah, Lt. Jones would have been just her flavor of catnip: heroic and adventurous, studious enough that he learned to read Greek, not a bad boy at all (after he turned his life around upon joining the Navy), but with his tragic past and tendency toward self-loathing and depression giving him enough of an edge to play into her "I can save him with my love" rescue fantasies. At that point in his life, he'd have been a good candidate for the "I can save him with my love" thing because someone other than his brother loving him unconditionally, believing in him, and caring about him would probably have helped him a lot. It wouldn't have just been a delusion on her part.

[KingOfHearts]

I wanted so badly for Gaston to be the man for her. Oh the irony that would have been. Smart, well-traveled, heroic, etc. That would have showcased Belle's hidden desires - to be with a beast.

[Camera One]

Belle was bored by Gaston though.  She wanted the bad boy, Rumple.  I think she and Hook would make a good couple.

[Curio]

I'm 100% not on board any romantic Hook/Belle angle, but it would be really fun to have an episode where they were forced to go on an adventure together. (That lasts longer than 1-2 minutes of screen time.) Belle doesn't take any of Hook's shit and it would be cool to see two non-magical people having to work together to solve something. Belle brings out the bookworm side of Killian and Hook brings out the adventurous side of Belle she doesn't get to use much.

[Camera One]

Yes, it would be nice to have actual friendships on this show.  And I'm not talking about that BFF who tried to/succeeded in murdering one's parent.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Belle is like a lot of girls/women. Parents say she should date so and so because of x and y, and it's like hell no. Parents are against the bad boys, therefore that must be the one.

Belle and Hook work as friends. I enjoyed their scenes in 6x02, the ones in 5x02 were really good too. The stuff since season 4 has been decent and it's not the let me coddle you, one sided friendship we've seen so far. There seems to be something genuine there. She's helped him and he's helping her. It's nice.

Edited October 4, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

I feel like whenever the fans beg to see more friendships shown on the show, the writers immediately go, "Well, I guess it's time to write another Regina/Emma or Regina/Snow episode." There are other combinations you're allowed to write for!

[Rumsy4]

I can't see Belle and Hook together romantically, simply becasue of the way he treated her when he was hell-bent on revenge. In a what-if scenario where Belle did not love Rumple, she might well go for Hook hoping to save him. However, I can't see him reciprocating. Hook looks up to the hero-types, and it inspires him to be a better person, but he wouldn't take well to someone using him as their pet project. It would smack too much of control. Belle and Lt. Jones--nah...she wouldn't be interested. Belle and slave-Killian struggling with drinking issues. That's something like Will Scarlet. So, maybe Belle would go for that. If pre-Lieutenant Killian saw Belle rescue Phillip with her ingenuity, he certainly would appreciate that. Still, I can't see them being actually working out as a successful couple. They have more of a siblings vibe to me. I do hope we get to see more of their interactions this season. That's one friendship I'd love for the Show to explore.

[TheGreenKnight]

22 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Is there some idea that Cora's death is karma for Regina? Why is this even a thing?

Because I was thinking ahead of how people would respond to my saying the wraith was a consequence Regina suffered. Others would say, "But she didn't die! And Snow/Emma suffered the consequences!" But then following from that line of thinking, the real consequence would be Snow/Emma needing to return to Storybrooke which paved the way for Cora to get to Regina again, something Regina did not want. Others would then say, "But she ended up teaming up with Cora anyway!" Which is why I brought up Cora dying being a long-following consequence from the wraith-to Cora returning-to Cora dying. I jumped ahead of the argument, and that's where the confusion came in, sorry. lol But really I would say the Wraith and Cora returning were the real consequences for holding Belle hostage. Cora dying is more a consequence for Regina turning on the others when things didn't go sunnily along immediately (as it pertains to Regina's character; I know Cora more than earned her death with her own actions, but I was talking about how Cora's death affects Regina).

[Dianthus]

Honestly, f*ck Regina! She's just deeply unpleasant, and I can't imagine wanting to have anything more to do with her than what's absolutely necessary. Isn't it enough that Emma and Snow constantly debase themselves in her cause? Besides, Belle's already got enough toxicity in her life thanks to Rumple.