Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Dianthus said:

Again, going back to the Hook/Rumple convo, given that Rumple is the Dark One, I don't know that he really needs a good reason to hate Hook by this point. It's simply reflexive.

But isn't it more interesting to dig into the multiple reasons for the hate, to play with some nuances instead of just being reflexive? There are different kinds of hate that apply to different situations, for different reasons. And then there are some other notes they could play in that relationship. For instance, a lot of their hate comes from the fact that they've loved some of the same people. They were able to call a truce to work together to rescue Henry. I would presume that Rumple loves Henry (not that he's really shown it very much), and Hook loved Henry before he loved Emma, just because Henry was Bae's son and Milah's grandson. If Belle were in jeopardy, would they be able to call a truce to work together to save her? They had grief in common over Neal's death. As much as Rumple hates Hook, does he have any gratitude about Hook having saved Bae's life (pulling him out of the water in Neverland) and then looking after him in Neverland? Their history is so tangled up that there's a lot to work with here.

Yeah, I'd love for them to actually address the other relationships, if they were willing to do so honestly. Regina and the Charmings getting past everything should have been a fascinating multi-season arc, but they just swept all the horrible stuff under the rug and made them a family. So if they're going to keep hitting the same relationships over and over again, it would be nice if they used all the material they've already set up and made it less one-note.

[Rumsy4]

10 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

How can you take seriously any parental advice these two give to Emma? They suck at the parenting bent on revenge (an inaccurate assessment of Emma's frame of mind, which displays even further their lack of understanding of Emma), but this is Snow "I can't live without David so I'll risk my life and my unborn child and if the heart splitting fails and we die, I'm cool with that" White. She doesn't have a leg to stand on telling Emma to move on and deal with Hook's death when she herself was suicidal at losing her husband. 

Snowing and Regina often dish it out to Emma, but can't take it themselves. Apart from the example you mentioned, Regina didn't want Emma to come with the rest of them to defeat Hades because Hook was still dead. But when Emma said the same thing to Regina after Robin died, Regina and Henry went off on Emma. It's the typical kind of double standards the writers employ when it comes to all their writing. It's like situational ethics.

[andromeda331]

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Snowing and Regina often dish it out to Emma, but can't take it themselves. Apart from the example you mentioned, Regina didn't want Emma to come with the rest of them to defeat Hades because Hook was still dead. But when Emma said the same thing to Regina after Robin died, Regina and Henry went off on Emma. It's the typical kind of double standards the writers employ when it comes to all their writing. It's like situational ethics.

I would so love to see Emma dish it out to Regina, everyone really. It is so...frustrating. Like when Snow decided she didn't want to be marry Mary Margaret anymore and Regina asks what took her so long? How awesome would it have been if Snow answered something like 'Oh I don't know maybe you murdering my father, trying to kill me, and terrorizing everyone in the Enchanted Forest, cursing me for 28 years forcing me to send my baby away only to be reunited 28 years later and guess what? She's got walls up so big because of what happened to her those 28 years! She was abandoned by everyone, grew up alone, her dipshit boyfriend sent her to jail for his crimes, I had to deal with not only trying to figure how to form a relationship and help her but also deal with the fact I never got a chance to raise my daughter with my husband! Also, where was the time to deal with that after the Curse was broken? I fell through a portal and had to deal with your mother, you teamed up with your mother to kill us all again, and was going to use that failsafe on us because we wanted to get away from you. Gee, you can't figure out why we would have wanted to do that? Then my grandson gets kidnapped, my husband gets wounded and had to face spending the rest of his life in Neverland, and I had do decide once again whether stay with him and be away from my daughter again, or go with my daughter and be away from my husband again? Then the Curse had to be undone, so I got sent back to the Enchanted Forest and really did have to get separated from my daughter again!  Then had to deal with your crazy sister trying to steal my baby. Then you whining about your happy ending, as if you deserve it after everything you've done? Also does it look like I got my happy ending? My daughter became the Dark One, risked her life and soul to save you and you still can't stop complaining. And then you have the nerve to ask me what took me so long to go back to being Snow?'  

[Amerilla]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would presume that Rumple loves Henry (not that he's really shown it very much), and Hook loved Henry before he loved Emma, just because Henry was Bae's son and Milah's grandson.

 

"I would presume X loves Y..." could be one of the show's unofficial models.

That said, I would presume Rumpel cared about Henry because in S1 and S2 up to Manhattan, Rumpel was shown to be quite affectionate towards Henry, and even after, struggled with the idea of getting rid of the Littlest Undoer. I would not be able to make the same presumption with Hook, who I don't think interacted with Henry at all in S2, and found out about Henry's connection to Bae and Milah in the final scenes of S2. Theoretically, that could equal insta-love, but it's pretty thin gruel. By the time the Neverland story got going, Hook was driven more by his emerging feelings for Emma than the original motivation of honoring poor, presumed-dead Neal....whom he was none too pleased to see when he turned out to be no-so-dead. 

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

As much as Rumple hates Hook, does he have any gratitude about Hook having saved Bae's life (pulling him out of the water in Neverland) and then looking after him in Neverland?

 

Did Rumpel ever find out anything beyond Hook and Bae had crossed paths in Neverland? I can't recall if that came out after S3, since I started to develop a nervous twitch every time I heard the word "cleave" and started my liberal use of the fast-forward button and YouTube clips early in S4. In any case, 

At the end of the day, it would have been easier to tie Hook to Regina/Cora and not Rumpel/Bae/Milah for his backstory. It would have saved a lot of needless complication to have Hook been purely a pre-Curse EF pirate who got screwed over by Rumpel on some deal and fell in with Regina, then Cora. Cora could have sent Hook to attack Belle to undermine Rumpel in Storybrooke, and that, more than anything to do with Milah hundreds of years in the past, could have spurred Rumpel's enmity towards Hook. Milah never needed to exist as a character at all. There was no meat on the bones of the Hookfire relationship - the only time the two of them evinced any kind of affection for each other was one, anvil-filled scene in "Quiet Minds," but mostly they just ignored each other or measured their dicks as they bid for Emma's affection - so you could have had Hook in Neverland in a completely separate time and not lose anything.  

[Curio]

23 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

That said, I would presume Rumpel cared about Henry because in S1 and S2 up to Manhattan, Rumpel was shown to be quite affectionate towards Henry, and even after, struggled with the idea of getting rid of the Littlest Undoer.

Which is why Rumple's behavior towards Henry Season 4 and onward is a bit jarring. In 4A, Henry worked at the pawn shop and did Rumple's menial tasks, and then it was revealed Rumple was playing Henry because he knew Henry was trying to get information from him the entire time. (Why didn't we get any significant bonding scenes with Henry and Rumple in 4A beyond the meaningless broom sweeping stuff?) And then Rumple attempted to destroy Henry's mom numerous times since then, and attempted to kill several other people Henry is close to. If you truly care about the kid, would you try to kill his parents and friends?

It's hard to get into Rumple's head at this point because it's hard to distinguish what is Rumple-Rumple, and what's Dark One-Rumple. We can give Emma a pass for trying to kill Merida because of Dark One Symptoms, we can give Hook a pass for being easily manipulated by Nimue, but are we supposed to hand wave every single thing Rumple has done over the seasons due to Dark One-itis? (This might be better suited for the Rumple thread.)

22 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

presumed-dead Neal....whom he was none too pleased to see when he turned out to be no-so-dead

I didn't interpret Hook as displeased by Neal's returned, but rather conflicted. The hospital scene where he hugs Neal shows that he wasn't that displeased by his return and actually seemed to be glad for a moment to be reunited. Of course, it's difficult to interpret their interactions because the writers barely gave them anything to do over two seasons, so there's not much canon to analyze. I think Hook's shifty behavior whenever Neal's name was mentioned at the beginning of 3B had more to do with the fact that Hook was the only person who wasn't impacted by the new curse and he kept his memories about the incoming curse storm and the bird's message, so Hook probably knew better than the others that Neal was in some deep trouble. He pretty much said as much when he confronted Neal in the hospital.

22 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

Did Rumpel ever find out anything beyond Hook and Bae had crossed paths in Neverland?

Nope. Rumple never found out anything, and neither did the audience... Sigh.

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple wanted to take Belle and Henry out of Storybrooke back in season 4, during that terrible curse. He sent Hook to get him while he was controlling him.

What little relationship those two had, I don't think it's something that's going to continue after the season 5 finale because of the stuff that went down between them with the magic destroying and the threats. I think that line has been crossed. Not to mention no one including Henry didn't seem to care whether Rumple stayed or left in the UW.

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

What little relationship those two had, I don't think it's something that's going to continue after the season 5 finale because of the stuff that went down between them with the magic destroying and the threats. I think that line has been crossed.

These writers don't give a crap about moral event horizons, unfortunately.

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Curio said:

These writers don't give a crap about moral event horizons, unfortunately.

That may be, but I thought that "relationship" reached the point of no return. Henry has no opinion other than yelling at his parents (I mean Emma), or you know, coming up with silly Operation names like he's still 10-11. 

I think his turning point with Rumple happened when he decided to siphon the Dark One magic back to him.  

I don't think the writers realize how much stuff that's already there they can actually mine with Henry. I'm never going to ask for more Henry on my screen, like EVER, but they can actually fill episodes with what's going on with him internally instead of insisting that he should remain a pre-teen, and then give him a girlfriend.

The guy is upset that his father died - let's not address that like ever. Upset that Hook died and then got left behind in the UW - let's not address that. Upset by Robin's death - Let's not address that. His grandfather decided that he was going to be back to being the Dark One - eh, we don't need to talk about that either.

It's like the only thing they ever make an effort on is when he is angry with Emma and rips her apart. Otherwise, it's a moot point. And if he gets that angry at Emma, and yells at her, then maybe, I don't know, he still has issues because she gave him up for adoption?

[Rumsy4]

25 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's like the only thing they ever make an effort on is when he is angry with Emma and rips her apart. Otherwise, it's a moot point. And if he gets that angry at Emma, and yells at her, then maybe, I don't know, he still has issues because she gave him up for adoption?

Henry mothers Regina. He acts like a brat with Emma. 

[KAOS Agent]

Henry is another character for whom plot needs trump relationships on the show. Does Rumpel care about Henry? I give you the 4B finale AU as Exhibit A that Rumpel couldn't care less about Henry. Rumpel wrote an entire story that gave him his happy ending and left Henry completely out of it. Beyond ditching Henry to live on his own in the real world, he didn't consider him important as a part of his happy ending.  Just think about that for a minute. That's terrible. Do I think the writers thought about it that way? Nope. I think they needed Henry to insert himself into the story after the fact to do his thing and thus, he needed to be left behind. However, the implications of that writing to the Henry/Rumpel relationship are really nasty. Henry means nothing to Rumpel.

Then we have Henry telling Emma off for being concerned that Regina might be unstable and revert to evil after Robin died. Just the previous episode, Emma's parents were concerned that Emma might be seeking revenge (which is super evil in this show's world view) after leaving Hook in the Underworld. So why was it reasonable for Emma's parents to worry that Emma might not be handling things well, but it's completely out of the realm of decency to question that Regina, who has a well documented history of not handling things well after a loved one's death, might fly off the handle? Never mind that Regina herself confirmed that Emma's worry was well founded when she told her that her first response was to want to kill Hook after he returned. Henry acts like a total brat and treats his mother like shit for an action that was completely rational and, it turns out, totally valid, but Emma is the one who needs to apologize. Emma is never once allowed to express how badly Henry actions have screwed over other people either. What does this say about their relationship? Do I think the writers want me to see it that way? No. I think they wanted another Swan Queen road trip and Henry running away and being a little shit was the way to set that up. It's all plot and no consequences. Who cares how this should affect Emma/Henry or Henry/Regina or Emma/Regina? 

[Camera One]

Then we have Henry telling Emma off for being concerned that Regina might be unstable and revert to evil after Robin died.

And Henry himself had the same worries and sentiment at the beginning of 4A.  So it was ridiculous that they would have Henry chiding Emma for that.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

And Henry himself had the same worries and sentiment at the beginning of 4A.  So it was ridiculous that they would have Henry chiding Emma for that.

Which makes him a hypocrite. 

[KingOfHearts]

Henry got mad at Regina for wanting to be alone in 4A, but then he did the same thing to Emma in 5A. He chastised Emma for not trusting Regina in 5B, but he didn't trust Emma in 5A. When Henry or Regina does something, it's understandable. When Emma does something, she should know better. Why is Henry never wrong? He always gets away with everything and the adults just handwave it as "being a teenager". Since when did an emotionally unstable adolescent because a moral compass?

Edited August 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Why is Henry never wrong? He always gets away with everything and the adults just handwave it as "being a teenager". Since when did an emotionally unstable adolescent because a moral compass?

Because he is A&E's self-insert in the story. He likes stuff from the 80s and is a writer. Even when he's wrong, he turns it around so that he's right. I have to destroy magic, manages to just do that, then is told that he broke up his family, so he comes up with the idea of showering coins in a fountain and making wishes which brings his family back together, ergo, he's such a hero! He gets a pat on his shoulder from his mothers, and a kiss from a girl.

Edited August 30, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

Because he is A&E's self-insert in the story. He likes stuff from the 80s and is a writer. Even when he's wrong, he turns it around so that he's right. I have to destroy magic, manages to just do that, then is told that he broke up his family, so he comes up with the idea of showering coins in a fountain and making wishes which brings his family back together, ergo, he's such a hero! He gets a pat on his shoulder, and a kiss from a girl.

He's male Regina, basically. He's even more of a Mary Sue than her because of the obvious wish fulfillment.

[tri4335]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Henry got mad at Regina for wanting to be alone in 4A, but then he did the same thing to Emma in 5A. He chastised Emma for not trusting Regina in 5B, but he didn't trust Emma in 5A. When Henry or Regina does something, it's understandable. When Emma does something, she should know better. Why is Henry never wrong? He always gets away with everything and the adults just handwave it as "being a teenager". Since when did an emotionally unstable adolescent because a moral compass?

Because that is the age that Eddie and Adam were emotionally stunted and they have no other point of reference!

[Camera One]

And don't forget those meta lines from "Our Decay":

Henry:  Oh. So you're all authors now? Everyone's a writer. Everyone's got an idea. I'm doing my best. Maybe if you just laid off for a little bit...

[KingOfHearts]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And don't forget those meta lines from "Our Decay":

Henry:  Oh. So you're all authors now? Everyone's a writer. Everyone's got an idea. I'm doing my best. Maybe if you just laid off for a little bit...

Sounds like what A&E said whenever the execs complained about their lack of story quality.

[Shanna Marie]

With Rumple and Henry, there's a big gap between "I guess I'll take the kid with us instead of leaving him to die when the town's destroyed" and "this child is my last living connection with the son I literally moved heaven and earth to reach, only to lose him tragically," and Rumple doesn't seem to move very far out of the former. He never shows any kind of affection toward Henry, doesn't seem to care if he spends any time with him, doesn't seem at all interested in him or what's going on in his life, doesn't seem to care one bit what Henry thinks about him. Those are all things he manages to do with Belle, so he's capable. He just never really shows much sign of caring that Henry is his grandson.

As for Hook and Neal/Bae, they set up hints that there was a relationship there, especially that Hook cared -- Hook wanted Bae to stay with him on the ship and be a family with him, he knew where Bae lived on the island and how to get into the hidden cave entrance, it was thinking about Bae that got him to turn the ship around and go back to help, he did that little wake with Emma on the way to Neverland when they thought Neal was dead the first time, and Pan taunted Hook about knowing his friend was alive and a captive. If there hadn't been any kind of friendship there, that wouldn't have been any kind of test for Hook. So they set up the potential, even if they didn't do much with it. It's yet another case of why set all that up and then not use it at all?

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The guy is upset that his father died - let's not address that like ever. Upset that Hook died and then got left behind in the UW - let's not address that. Upset by Robin's death - Let's not address that. His grandfather decided that he was going to be back to being the Dark One - eh, we don't need to talk about that either.

They have shown a bit of reaction to Neal's death, with the funeral scene and then his time talking about his dad with Hook, and later visiting Neal's grave when he got his memories back. He's brought up Neal since then, though usually just for plot reasons, like ways to woo Violet or the "my dad wanted to destroy magic" (oh, really?) bit. And we got all that sympathy from Violet about Robin's death. It was Hook's death that Henry didn't get to react to at all, even though he was his main link with his dad (since Rumple barely acknowledges his existence) and they were looking for houses together. They seem to keep forgetting that Rumple is his grandfather, so the reaction to what Rumple did was no more than you'd get for any other random villain doing something. 

[Amerilla]

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So they set up the potential, even if they didn't do much with it. It's yet another case of why set all that up and then not use it at all?

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. Especially after Season 2, the only actual relationship on the show is between the Story and the Story, and only the Story of the Moment. It's completely masturbatory.  The characters matter only to the extent they move the Story, not as they matter to each other. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Amerilla
Forgot a line

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. Especially after Season 2, the only actual relationship on the show is between the Story and the Story, and only the Story of the Moment. It's completely masturbatory.  The characters matter only to the extent they move the Story, not as they matter to each other. 

And sadly, the Story isn't even that comprehensible. 

[tri4335]

7 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 So they set up the potential, even if they didn't do much with it. It's yet another case of why set all that up and then not use it at all?

 

 

7 minutes ago, Amerilla said:

Maybe that's the crux of the issue. Especially after Season 2, the only actual relationship on the show is between the Story and the Story, and only the Story of the Moment. It's completely masturbatory.  The characters matter only to the extent they move the Story, not as they matter to each other. 

 

To me, this show will go down as the show that squandered the most potential of any show I've watched in recent years. They have all this great setup and/or they have the potential for really in depth emotional moments that end up being nothing. It's like @Amerilla said, they're just jerking off all over the place without any "real" pleasure for their audience!

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

To me, this show will go down as the show that squandered the most potential of any show I've watched in recent years.

Most show runners would kill for the types of characters OUAT has and the chemistry the actors have with each other, and when you get that kind of lightning in a bottle effect, you have to write character-driven stories. But they're wasting all that Hollywood magic by creating convoluted plots and stories that end up making no sense. Hook and Rumple locked together in the pawn shop just talking about Bae could last for 43 minutes. Snow and Emma running errands could last for 43 minutes. Emma discovering the truth about Graham could last for 43 minutes. The writers don't need to create artificial drama and complicated plots, they just need to focus on the character relationships. But it's all a waste.

[Dianthus]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 10:08 AM, Shanna Marie said:

But isn't it more interesting to dig into the multiple reasons for the hate, to play with some nuances instead of just being reflexive? There are different kinds of hate that apply to different situations, for different reasons. And then there are some other notes they could play in that relationship. For instance, a lot of their hate comes from the fact that they've loved some of the same people. They were able to call a truce to work together to rescue Henry. I would presume that Rumple loves Henry (not that he's really shown it very much), and Hook loved Henry before he loved Emma, just because Henry was Bae's son and Milah's grandson. If Belle were in jeopardy, would they be able to call a truce to work together to save her? They had grief in common over Neal's death. As much as Rumple hates Hook, does he have any gratitude about Hook having saved Bae's life (pulling him out of the water in Neverland) and then looking after him in Neverland? Their history is so tangled up that there's a lot to work with here.

Yeah, I'd love for them to actually address the other relationships, if they were willing to do so honestly. Regina and the Charmings getting past everything should have been a fascinating multi-season arc, but they just swept all the horrible stuff under the rug and made them a family. So if they're going to keep hitting the same relationships over and over again, it would be nice if they used all the material they've already set up and made it less one-note.

Would it be more interesting? Of course. Are they gonna do it? No.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

The writers don't need to create artificial drama and complicated plots, they just need to focus on the character relationships.

The thing that they don't seem to realize is that character and plot aren't mutually exclusive, that if you let the characters have emotions and relationships, it enhances the plot because it raises the emotional stakes. Season 5 should have been perfect for this sort of thing. The Dark Swan arc could have delved into the relationship between Emma and her parents, since her dark self might have had less of a filter, and we could have seen them actually trying to save her and acting like they cared about losing her. At the same time, Hook having to work with her family to help her could have established the relationship between him and them, so him dying/being turned into a Dark One/dying would have had more emotional impact on everyone and would have set up the trip to the Underworld to save him. We should have seen a little more interaction between Rumple and Hook throughout all that because of the way their circumstances were changing, and we needed more aftermath after the way Rumple screwed Hook over. We should have had at least some interaction between Robin and everyone else if we were supposed to care that he died and believe the level of mourning we saw. They wouldn't have had to change any of the plot events, but trimming some of the wheel-spinning that went nowhere and beefing up the character interactions would have made the story so much richer. They do it well when they bother to do it -- like the scene between David and Hook in the Underworld -- so it's baffling that they don't bother doing it most of the time.

[KingOfHearts]

I wanted to laugh after reading a little bit of what was discussed in the 5x09 thread right after the episode aired. We were all talking about A&E hyping up Mulan Rouge and preparing for 5B. Ha. 

Instead of giving Mulan, the only confirmed LGBT character on the show at the time, a female love interest like they were hyping, they threw it to Ruby and Dorothy. Ruby had a boyfriend and her loneliness was setup to be cured by finding others in her pack, not a partner. Not that she can't be bisexual, but when you look at Ruby Slippers, it's a total 180 compared to what the writers were promising. It was completely inorganic, left Mulan out in the cold again, and the episode functioned very much as a Very Special one. If the writers thought they could do better than Mulan Rouge, then alright. But what we got had even worse shoehorning.

Edited September 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

First of all, it made no sense that Ruby was looking for her pack. She rejected it when she chose her friend over her own mother, and she seemed happy with her decision. Besides, did she think her pack would welcome her back with open arms after what she did to them? 

Second, there was nothing to show why Ruby and Dorothy felt True Love after a walk. That must have been one hell of a moonlight ride! I suppose one can appreciate the fact that A&E did not kill off the LGBT character, especially with all the backlash they knew they would get for having a lesbian kiss on the show. So, there's that. 

[Kktjones]

This is complete speculation on my part, but I feel certain that they were planning for Mulan Rouge in 5A and something derailed it before 5B started. Not sure if Disney said no to having Mulan be part of a same sex couple or if it was something else, but that is literally the only explanation that makes any sense. They laid the groundwork for the two of them in 5x09 and even mentioned in interviews that they were "planting seeds" in 5A. 

However, if their original plan wasn't going to work out, they should have taken more time to set something else up b/c the Ruby Slippers thing really felt rushed and forced...

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

First of all, it made no sense that Ruby was looking for her pack. She rejected it when she chose her friend over her own mother, and she seemed happy with her decision.

Not to mention that this disregards Granny entirely. Red's depressed that no one like her is around, while living and working with the grandmother who raised her who is like her and who's the only person like her who didn't reject her when she chose her friend over her mother? And she leaves behind the only person like her who's never rejected her to go through a portal to another world to look for the people who rejected her? Not only was that whole thing a contrived way to throw Red into another story, but it damaged the relationship that had already been established with her family member (yet another example of how they talk about family on this show, but family is always devalued vs. romantic love). And then there's Snow, the friend she chose over the pack. Did that relationship no longer mean anything to her? Wasn't the whole idea of that storyline in the first place to show that the bonds of friendship were more important than some kind of defining identity, and you could choose the kind of person you wanted to be? So now all of a sudden, it's more about the identity, except then it wasn't because she never did find her pack but it's all okay because of romantic love.

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wasn't the whole idea of that storyline in the first place to show that the bonds of friendship were more important than some kind of defining identity, and you could choose the kind of person you wanted to be? So now all of a sudden, it's more about the identity, except then it wasn't because she never did find her pack but it's all okay because of romantic love.

The Show has moved away from its original concept (or so it seemed) of the "found" family being more important, to literal family being more important. Unless it is about romantic love, as you say. The main characters are all related by blood or by marriage. Except for Hook, who is Emma's Love Interest. Robin was the other exception--but he died, and has been replaced by Regina's blood sister. 

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The main characters are all related by blood or by marriage. Except for Hook, who is Emma's Love Interest.

In a way, he's kind of related by marriage, in that he's Henry's step-grandfather. He and Milah may not have been legally married, but they seem to have functioned like a husband and wife. In our world, we might consider them to be common-law spouses or life partners. He'd have a tie to Henry even without Emma. That was probably Robin's problem. He wasn't related to anyone in the core group, so he was just a love interest, and therefore, he had to die because the writers weren't interested in him.

[YaddaYadda]

Ruby and Dorothy gave me whiplash. And I'm still disappointed by how the whole thing played out. I was anticipating something else entirely until we got the title for 5x18 which became a dead giveaway. Wolfie and Kansas, really? I totally get mutual attraction and even love at first sight which they didn't sell at all, but Dorothy was so damn bitchy! I'm still not sure what Ruby saw in her really. That vs the way Mulan and Ruby were introduced was like day and night.

[Camera One]

So now all of a sudden, it's more about the identity, except then it wasn't because she never did find her pack but it's all okay because of romantic love.

It was a really clunky way of introducing the concept that Ruby felt like she was "different" and didn't "belong", using her isolation as a werewolf as an analogy for the loneliness of being closeted and attracted to people of the same sex.  

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It was a really clunky way of introducing the concept that Ruby felt like she was "different" and didn't "belong", using her isolation as a werewolf as an analogy for the loneliness of being closeted and attracted to people of the same sex.

Given the fact that we've never seen a same-sex couple in the Enchanted Forest world, in that case maybe she'd have been better off heading to New York than realm-hopping. So, yeah, clunky and contrived.

[Camera One]

in that case maybe she'd have been better off heading to New York than realm-hopping.

Good point.  Though they wrote "Ruby Slippers" like Wolfie didn't know what she was missing until she met Kansas.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought it would be interesting to compare the romantic relationships of the Mills women. (Excluding arranged or loveless marriages.)

Regina's love interest trend has been honest-to-goodness, noble commoners. Daniel, Robin, and even Graham were all blue collar men of virtue. Zelena and Cora, by contrast, were drawn to powerful bad boys. Cora's case has made the most sense because she desired wealth and influence without the yoke of compassion for others. Zelena was not as clear-cut because she was desperate to be loved by, well, anyone. However, Hades was successful in breaching her barriers because she just couldn't stop him. He kept coming with boxes of chocolates and puppies until she finally let him in. So, it's harder to judge her tastes because she never really had any options other than him.

Golden Hearts worked so much better than Zades, even though they both shared the villain couple concept. Rumple's relationship with Cora was very honestly twisted and did nothing to convince the audience that it was pure or worth rooting for. We didn't see Rumple pout after it was over or some random TL kiss. The audience could take it as it was without being pressured into coming to a certain conclusion. It fit organically in the story, while Zades never had to exist. Even though what Rumple and Cora had was twisted and hateful, I still enjoyed it greatly above that. 

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina's love interest trend has been honest-to-goodness, noble commoners. Daniel, Robin, and even Graham were all blue collar men of virtue.

This would be interesting to explore, if the writers had any actual thought put into it, but I suspect it's just coincidence. Robin was just about that tattoo and the pixie dust. I don't think Regina could have articulated anything she liked about him other than the pixie dust (nor could the writers), and she didn't like him until she saw the tattoo. She did once say something about him having been a thief who turned his life around, so maybe she respects that, but she didn't meet him until he'd already changed. Whatever she had with Graham was purely physical and about her power over him. That's what made it so rapey. Not only was he unable to give consent, but it all started as a way of her punishing him and demonstrating that she controlled him. She ordered him to her bedchamber after he failed to kill Snow. In that respect, I guess it's indirectly about him being a decent man, in that she was punishing him for that, but I don't think there's any indication that she ever cared anything about him as a person or that she liked anything about him other than his body.

So that leaves Daniel, and there again, we don't know what she liked about him. Her revenge quest was about her life being ruined by losing him, not really about avenging him or getting justice for him. She was willing to destroy her last relics of him in order to get revenge. When you think about it, she was kind of in a position of power over him. He seems to have been interested in her and was consenting to the relationship, but he was also a servant of her family. Based on the way she acted after his death, I've found myself wondering how much she actually cared for him as a person and how much her feelings for him were about seeing him as a symbol of freedom, a possible escape route from her mother and the life her mother wanted for her. That would explain the "you ruined my life" routine, if it really was about the life he represented that she lost when he died rather than about losing someone she loved. Not that she didn't love him, or at least believed she did, but you do have to wonder how that relationship would have gone if they had run off together without Cora interfering.

[KingOfHearts]

I totally forgot Regina was also attracted to David. In Storybrooke, it was purely manipulation. But in EF, she made a remark that she "saw the allure". It was probably just physical lust, but there does seem to be a pattern. David was also one of the quaint, goodhearted commonfolk.

Especially with Robin and Daniel, I feel like the writers were trying to make Regina someone who, deep inside, wanted a wholesome life. But it really didn't make sense after she had embraced her queenliness. She was a royal snob with high tastes. She wasn't this Jasmine-type the writers wanted her to be half the time. (While being the regal Evil Queen the other half.)

Edited September 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[TheGreenKnight]

17 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Golden Hearts worked so much better than Zades, even though they both shared the villain couple concept. Rumple's relationship with Cora was very honestly twisted and did nothing to convince the audience that it was pure or worth rooting for. We didn't see Rumple pout after it was over or some random TL kiss. The audience could take it as it was without being pressured into coming to a certain conclusion. It fit organically in the story, while Zades never had to exist. Even though what Rumple and Cora had was twisted and hateful, I still enjoyed it greatly above that. 

I liked them both, personally, but I think the real difference is that whatever relationship Cora and Rumpel had felt extremely cold and based in lust. It never felt like "love," in any sense, just mutual attraction to one another's power. I don't understand how Zades was not organic to the story considering 5B was entirely centered around it.

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So that leaves Daniel, and there again, we don't know what she liked about him. Her revenge quest was about her life being ruined by losing him, not really about avenging him or getting justice for him.

I don't think that's true. The episode where Daniel dies and Snow is in jail ends with Regina saying, "We got her." It's about getting revenge for his death, her unhappiness of being alone, the tragedy of what could have been, all of it. Ultimately, we know little about why she liked him because he died almost immediately and they weren't going to expend the effort on a DOA character. That said, you could be onto something as far as maybe he was unconsciously an escape attempt to get away from Cora. I could picture the romance not lasting forever once they got away from her.

As far as Ruby Slippers, no one could ever convince me the reason the episode wasn't about Mulan Rouge didn't have something to do with Disney quashing the idea of Mulan being an open lesbian. That said, I'll have to go against the grain and say Dorothy and Ruby had more chemistry than Ruby and Mulan. I wish it was more developed, but I thought they did the best they could have with one episode... But I don't find Ruby Slippers very different from the norm. Nearly every relationship on this show utterly relies on the chemistry between the actors to work at all. If you don't feel the chemistry, you probably won't like the relationship. I mean, Snow and Charming's meet-cute never struck me either. They always felt like characters who were together because the story required it. And the main reason Captain Swan happened over Emma/Neal is because the latter two had no chemistry...

Edited September 16, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Camera One]

Quote

 

That said, I'll have to go against the grain and say Dorothy and Ruby had more chemistry than Ruby and Mulan.

I didn't think Dorothy and Ruby had any chemistry (they actually had negative chemistry, if that exists), but I agree that Ruby and Mulan didn't have chemistry either.  The latter was also developed over a single episode, so it wouldn't have been much better.  I think Mulan and Belle actually had more chemistry, or even Mulan and Merida.  

Edited September 16, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 I think Mulan and Belle actually had more chemistry, or even Mulan and Merida.  

Red Beauty forever.

[KAOS Agent]

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Ultimately, we know little about why she liked him because he died almost immediately and they weren't going to expend the effort on a DOA character. That said, you could be onto something as far as maybe he was unconsciously an escape attempt to get away from Cora. I could picture the romance not lasting forever once they got away from her.

I think there's a large chance that the relationship wouldn't have lasted long term. There were a lot of factors that make it more of a fantasy romance for a young woman than a lasting true love that can endure the realities the couple would have faced had they run away. Even the illicit aspect of it probably added to the allure for Regina. It doesn't mean that she didn't love him, but there was more going on there than just two people in love.

Once the practical realities hit and the fantasy was wiped away, it would have gotten hard really fast. Even the most steadfast relationship would be strained by the hardships they would face. Love is great, but it doesn't fill your stomach or give you a roof over your head. Daniel would have had no job or references to get a new one once they fled. He seemed like a nice understanding guy, but how would he deal with a wife with no practical skills? Would she even have the basic skills to keep house? I'd bet she wouldn't have a clue how to cook or clean. She certainly never hauled water or did her own laundry. How would she deal with suddenly having to do a bunch of backbreaking work? How well would she handle the reduced circumstances of living in a tiny hut? Dirt floors, one dress, mice and bugs in the little bit of bland food they had. No fine horses to ride. Just the endless monotony of trying to survive.

I work at a historical site where we try to keep things as accurate as possible, and just starting and keeping the damn fire going is a pain in the ass. I hate splitting wood. Cooking over the fire is fun for a day and then it sucks. The outhouse isn't terrible, but then again, it's chemically maintained and cleaned out by professionals. It's no fun constantly fighting the bugs, spiders, rodents and snakes that get into the buildings. Not to mention the ever leaking roof, the drafts that come through the holes in the chinking, the endless cold that no fire can dispel. I can't even imagine dealing with living in those circumstances 24/7 with no break - especially if food was scarce as well.  I get paid to deal with just a taste of that but then I go home to a nice hot shower and warm soft bed. When my dress gets dirty (which is constantly), I throw it in the washer. If it gets ruined, I just get another one. Regina wouldn't be able to do that and a fledgling relationship would have a very hard time surviving the struggle of adjustment to a new life like that.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 If it gets ruined, I just get another one. Regina wouldn't be able to do that and a fledgling relationship would have a very hard time surviving the struggle of adjustment to a new life like that.

Regina's plan to run off with Daniel was very unrealistic. It felt like a teen romance. (And it probably was one.) All she cared about was being with him and getting away from Cora, which was understandable. Daniel represented freedom and acceptance, something she never had before. 

All of Regina's relationships came with ulterior motives, whether good or bad. With Robin, it was so she could have her happy ending. We never really got to see what she saw in him. Even when she's not trying, she's still selfish.

[Rumsy4]

40 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think there's a large chance that the relationship wouldn't have lasted long term. There were a lot of factors that make it more of a fantasy romance for a young woman than a lasting true love that can endure the realities the couple would have faced had they run away. Even the illicit aspect of it probably added to the allure for Regina. It doesn't mean that she didn't love him, but there was more going on there than just two people in love.

I agree. Regina would have had a really hard time adjusting to a simple life. If Cora had somehow spared Daniel at first, she would probably have been able to persuade Regina to leave him and come back in a couple of years, or Rumple might have been able to jump in and manipulate Regina with the promise of a better life. Or Cora might have been able to persuade Regina to bring Daniel and come back. Daniel may have felt obligated to agree to make Regina happy, and shenanigans would ensue.

It is interesting that when it came to Robin, the latter simply spent time with Regina in her house (or vault). There was no question of Regina camping out in the woods with the Merry Men. And apparently since Robin didn't feel at home anywhere but in the woods, he was compromising for Regina's sake. After all, why should Regina want to give-up a life of luxury to live in a tent for Robin's sake?  

Edited September 17, 2016 by Rumsy4

[orza]

Well, Regina was a teenager at that time. There's nothing wrong with a teenager acting like a teenager with unrealistic teenage notions about romance.

It doesn't matter how things were in the real world. This is a fantasy show, not an historically accurate depiction of feudal life as it was in our world. Snow was also a pampered princess who never had to lift a finger and she adapted amazingly well to a harsh life on the run and keeping house for the dwarfs. Belle also went from being a pampered young noble woman to a passable housekeeper with minimal fuss once Rumple provided her with suitable clothing. There's no reason Regina could not also adapt in their fairytale world.

Edited September 17, 2016 by orza

[TheGreenKnight]

I doubt Regina would have much trouble adjusting over time considering we've seen throughout the show the lengths Regina'd go to make things work. And no doubt she would be determined to stay far away from Cora and happy for it. My real thing about Daniel is they likely never had enough time to get to know each other that well because they only had brief moments out of sight of Cora, and that's what would probably cause conflict long-term.

Edited September 17, 2016 by TheGreenKnight
EDIT: Oops, I didn't even see the post on this page. Somebody already said the first half I wrote.

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

If Cora had somehow spared Daniel at first, she would probably have been able to persuade Regina to leave him and come back in a couple of years, or Rumple might have been able to jump in and manipulate Regina with the promise of a better life.

I never thought about the Rumpel aspect of it all. He was involved at that time as well. If Regina had escaped Cora's clutches, he would have jumped right in promising all kinds of easy fixes to her struggles which would ultimately result in Daniel being dead and Regina bent on casting the curse for some reason because that's how Rumpel rolls and he's very, very good at it. I don't care who you are, moving to any living situation with a new partner is a struggle. Add homelessness, lack of money, unemployment, limited life skills and starvation on top of that and that relationship is going to suffer massively. It's a miserable, hardscrabble life. And it's not just Regina who is involved in this relationship, Daniel is there as well. He'd be just as likely to have significant issues as Regina. He'd be just as susceptible to Rumpel's machinations to give Regina a better life. Maybe even more if he felt Regina was suffering too much because she chose to be with him.

Note that Regina herself used this manipulation on Jefferson. He lived in a hovel in the woods with his daughter, couldn't afford to buy her a simple toy and she set him up to feel awful about his poverty and how love wasn't enough. He loved his daughter and wanted the best for her. In comes Regina and says, "So, now you’re foraging for fungus. What kind of future does your daughter have here with you? Do this one last favor for me, and you can give her the life she deserves." She obviously recognized the dissatisfaction and unhappiness that poverty brings and the yearning and desperation to give those you love a better life. This tactic would have worked very well on either a struggling Regina or guilt-ridden Daniel. So even if you think their love would transcend all the practical realities that would cause many relationships to fail, that very love would be the lever used to bring them down.

Edited September 17, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

11 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I doubt Regina would have much trouble adjusting over time considering we've seen throughout the show the lengths Regina'd go to make things work. 

That's the thing--we have seen Regina go to extreme lengths to get what she wants (or what she thinks she wants). What we haven't seen is her making the best of things as they are. Sooner or later, she was bound to be tempted to better herself like Cora herself was.

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I never thought about the Rumpel aspect of it all. He was involved at that time as well. If Regina had escaped Cora's clutches, he would have jumped right in promising all kinds of easy fixes to her struggles which would ultimately result in Daniel being dead and Regina bent on casting the curse for some reason because that's how Rumpel rolls and he's very, very good at it. ... And it's not just Regina who is involved in this relationship, Daniel is there as well. He'd be just as likely to have significant issues as Regina. He'd be just as susceptible to Rumpel's machinations to give Regina a better life. Maybe even more if he felt Regina was suffering too much because she chose to be with him.

At the end of the day, either Cora or Rumple would have managed to insert themselves into the situation and manipulate their lives. The question is whether or not they would have been able to implicate Snow for "ruining" Regina's life. Probably by some convoluted means or the other. They were both relentless--Cora in the pursuit of her revenge against Eva, and Rumple is pursuit of a curse caster (which apparently he foresaw to be Cora's daughter).  And good point about Jefferson. He fell from better circumstances into poverty, and was tempted to get back his old status. Regina would've been in a similar spot. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Mari]

13 hours ago, orza said:

Snow was also a pampered princess who never had to lift a finger and she adapted amazingly well to a harsh life on the run and keeping house for the dwarfs. Belle also went from being a pampered young noble woman to a passable housekeeper with minimal fuss once Rumple provided her with suitable clothing. There's no reason Regina could not also adapt in their fairytale world.

But, that's not taking into account the personalities involved.

Belle adapted, but she seems to gain self-value from being a "hero," and she saw going with Rumple to save her people as heroic.  It gave her sufficient motivation to learn to adapt, and before she was there long enough to truly regret and/or resent the decision, she'd become emotionally attached to Rumple.

Snow already had a few of the skills she needed--archery, riding--and had a target she could blame for what happened.  In some of the flashbacks, it's clear that she might have developed the skills, but she wasn't singing merrily through the forest.  She was angry, resentful, and looking for escape.  Plus, it was adapt or die a horrible death.

It's a lot tougher to not only change your lifestyle completely--which Regina would need to do--but maintain a relationship while submitting to a life of drudgery you never expected or understood before you left home.  Plus, things like that can easily fester in a relationship;  particularly when you see the relationship as the reason your entire life has changed and you don't have enough to eat or money to get a new dress or see the healer.  Especially when you are a very emotionally immature and troubled young woman, like Regina was.

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's the thing--we have seen Regina go to extreme lengths to get what she wants (or what she thinks she wants). What we haven't seen is her making the best of things as they are. Sooner or later, she was bound to be tempted to better herself like Cora herself was.

I don't really buy that. The need for status is more a characteristic of Cora (or Anastasia) than Regina. Regina would have been satisfied with Daniel. I can see Rumpel interfering and giving an offer for her to have it all and Daniel, too, only for her to end up with nothing, but then how would he have been able to convince her to cast the Curse if she hated him?