Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[mjgchick]

I think the point is Hook and Emma will do the opposite? I mean Merlin was so sure Emma was going to kill him because he didn't have any faith that she'd be able to handle the darkness but Emma said fuck off. Clearly she still loses because it wouldn't be this show.

They've actually paralleled CS with 3 couples if you count Lancelot and Guin.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the point is Hook and Emma will do the opposite? I mean Merlin was so sure Emma was going to kill him because he didn't have any faith that she'd be able to handle the darkness but Emma said fuck off. Clearly she still loses because it wouldn't be this show.

They've actually paralleled CS with 3 couples if you count Lancelot and Guin.

 

Oh yeah, that's why I called them anti-parallels, because I don't know what else to call them.

 

I don't count Lancelot and Gwen, because I just...no thanks! (I can't get over my loathing of the characters in the legends).

 

I wonder if Arthur won't be turning Merlin evil by controlling him with the sword. I mean if there's a relationship that has turned completely sour, that one is it.

[HoodlumSheep]

I like the Merlin/Arthur relationship. I want them to delve into it more (like, give us more details). It's a pretty intriguing relationship. Arthur's finally cracked (I find it decently understandable), and we still don't really know what Merlin had planned for him.

[mjgchick]

I'm assuming Arthur would be a father figure to both Arthur and Mickey but only Mickey got to grow up with him. Arthur's a douche but I do feel bad for the guy. Not enough to root for him because he's fucked up so many of his relationships because he wasn't patient.

[Curio]

I really enjoyed the Merlin and Emma interactions in the last episode and could see them developing a strong friendship based on respect for each other. I hope the show keeps Merlin around long-term because Emma could use a magical friend who doesn't: a) Leave right away to Arendelle, b) scream at Emma for ruining their life, c) put too much pressure on Emma to find another person's happy ending, d) steals Emma's thunder as Savior, or e) makes light of Emma's darkness situation by forcing her to do things outside of her own free will.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Curio

[mjgchick]

I hate that stupid Arthur ordered Merlin to come to him when Emma was just opening up to him about Henry getting bigger. She sounded like a mom. lol How dare they tease us normalcy on this show for it to be snatched from us quicker than it takes Donald Trump to say something racist.

Edited November 9, 2015 by mjgchick

[LizaD]

I liked Merlin and Emma too. It was a bit weird though how he kept saying "you're the only one that can kill me" over and over. Like show we got it the first freaking time. But it was funny how at first Emma didn't get it and then she was like "ohhh yeah that's me." It was nice that she told him Nimue still loved him. I wonder how much that's true and how much that's her projecting. Dark Nimue is pretty ruthless.

 

I do think unDark Nimue wanted power and it wasn't solely about revenge. Even when Merlin told her about the Holy Grail her first thought was to make her immortal, not the other way around. But she could've killed him right, instead of turning him into a tree. For half an episode "development" they made out alright.

 

I also liked Arthur and Merlin and even though EK is obviously a lot younger I could buy a fatherly vibe between them. Arthur's the trouble making no good kid and Emma is the fave over-achieving kid. I'm sure hearing Merlin saying Emma passed the test didn't help any. I'm glad Arthur got to say his piece to Merlin. There's a lot to mine there but then again there's stuff to be mined from Emma and Snowing too.

 

Surprisingly I also liked Nimue and Emma and Nimue/DS. I think they have more chemistry than Emma and the black hole. And Dark Nimue is pretty bad ass. I wished we could've gotten her as the head voice from the beginning instead of Rump. Then they could've spent more time developing blank heart Gold.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm glad Arthur got to say his piece to Merlin.

 

I thought Arthur's "half a sword for half a man" speech...he's a dick, but I can't even hate him. He genuinely feels Merlin played him, laughed at his failures. 

 

The actors, and the what they're doing with what they're given has been really good. 

[Shanna Marie]

I kind of want to start shipping Arthur and Regina. They have a lot in common -- blaming other people for their own bad decisions. Regina had Rumple egging her on toward revenge and showing her power, but it was her decision to actually seek revenge and do all the crazy stuff she's done. She turned herself into a villain. Likewise, Arthur may have had Merlin giving him prophecies, but he was the one who chose to get all weird and obsessive and focus more on finding the dagger to complete the sword than on actually being a good king. See, they're made for each other!

 

But just imagine the fights, with neither of them capable of taking responsibility.

[Camera One]

They're both too in love with themselves for it to work.  This Arthur is spiraling more and more into caricature and at this point would be more likely to call himself bold and audacious.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

They both like creating false worlds where they're on top looking down at the little peasants. They both have used magic to control people and remove their free will. Are we sure Arthur doesn't have a lion tattoo? Maybe he made up some potion since apparently he's so great at magic, and impersonated Robin Hood in the tavern that night.

[scenicbyway]

Am I the only one who did not see the epic love story between Nimue and Merlin? I mean I know what Elliot Knight said about it sort of falling in line with Snowing/Captain Swan, but nope.  

 

He couldn't get a read on her, could not see her future. 

He failed to see how much pain she was in over her losses.

 

Merlin is clueless. I guess it comes with very old age, but still. Did not see it. I think that maybe this is the one thing that remains true to the Arthurian legend, that Merlin loved Nimue, but it was sort of wishy washy. When push came to shove, Nimue did what Rumple has done countless times. She chose power over everything else that he was giving her.

 

I think the point of Merlin not being able to see the future with Nimue was 1.  Love is blind  and 2.  There was no future with her to see.  Those should've been red flags but my impression was that this was the first time in all of those years that Merlin was in love.  He led a very lonely existence up to that point because he kept outliving everyone.  I did think it was strange that they guy running away from him turned to dust when Nimue was able to drink from the cup despite the revenge in her heart.  Why didn't she turn to dust?

 

As for Regina and Robin, I do wonder if this was done in response to calm shippers (in a roundabout way) who ship Emma and Regina.  If Emma has a love interest, Regina has to have one too otherwise it gives hope to that pairing.  I realize that there are those who are only willing to believe in Emma and Regina, but perhaps this was the writers way of addressing that issue.  I don't think they had originally intended for Robin to be her love interest because they had to recast the role in order to make it happen.

 

I think the Hook and Emma relationship is balanced because this is Emma's story.  Everyone else are just supporting characters.  We've seen the progression from season 1.  Henry was Emma's immediate priority in Season 1.  Emma realizes her parents are Snow and Charming in Season 2 and Emma and Snow have a mother-daughter adventure, where they meet Emma's eventual love interest.  Season 3, Henry is kidnapped and everyone bands together to "save Henry," in 3b we see the depth of Hook's devotion by this point (eventhough it was evident in Neverland) and Emma's eventual decision to accept Storybrooke as her home as well as Hook.  Season 4, I think was just a placeholder season.  I think it's possible that this season was meant for Season 4 but "Frozen" delayed that.  The season basically about Emma accepting her magic only to become the Dark One.  This season they finally seem to be pushing Captain Swan forward.  I think they've realized how popular Hook is but also they've basically been stuck with daytime dates for a season.  The passion had gone out a bit and we needed to see Emma wanting Hook just as much as he wants her, especially after she took on the darkness when he pleaded with her not to.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the point of Merlin not being able to see the future with Nimue was 1.  Love is blind  and 2.  There was no future with her to see.  Those should've been red flags but my impression was that this was the first time in all of those years that Merlin was in love.  He led a very lonely existence up to that point because he kept outliving everyone.  I did think it was strange that they guy running away from him turned to dust when Nimue was able to drink from the cup despite the revenge in her heart.  Why didn't she turn to dust?

 

 

I think once the cup/sword has been taken from the stone, it can't really turn anyone else to dust. Rumple took the sword out of the stone, and Emma was able to pick it up. I think the stone protects the object.

[Curio]

As for Regina and Robin, I do wonder if this was done in response to calm shippers (in a roundabout way) who ship Emma and Regina. If Emma has a love interest, Regina has to have one too otherwise it gives hope to that pairing. I realize that there are those who are only willing to believe in Emma and Regina, but perhaps this was the writers way of addressing that issue.

 

I highly doubt any fandom influenced the Robin/Regina pairing. That's all on the writers and them wanting to give Regina a happy ending.

 

But there's no placating the fandom, so the writers are better off just ignoring them completely. Robin could propose to Regina, Regina could excitedly accept, and there would still be fans who say, "Oh, she only said yes because she feels obligated to because of Roland." Emma could propose to Hook and they could share a True Love's Kiss and some fans would still say, "Oh, she's just in denial and feels pressure from the patriarchal society she lives in to get married. And that True Love's Kiss was fake! Emma has magic and faked that kiss because she feels bad about Hook thinking they aren't True Loves. I bet you anything CS breaks up right before the wedding and Emma goes running to Regina." A promo could come out that shows Hook and Emma getting married and some fans would still say, "That's a red herring! There's no way they would spoil a huge event like that in the promo! Regina is totally going to crash their wedding like she did with Snow and Charming and profess her love to Emma. Parallels!" And then the series could end with Emma and Hook happily married with a new kid on the way and Regina and Robin could be raising Roland and the final title card "The End" could show up on screen and some fans will still say, "Of course they couldn't show Regina and Emma together on screen, ABC wouldn't let them! Divorce is a thing that happens you know."

 

Meanwhile, the rest of us can enjoy the actual writing, characters, and relationships that have developed in canon on screen and tune out the others because I literally just summed up the exact trajectory of their complaints for the next 2+ years. You're welcome.

[Faemonic]

I highly doubt any fandom influenced the Robin/Regina pairing. That's all on the writers and them wanting to give Regina a happy ending.

I agree. The reaction I saw when Regina's backup soulmate was revealed wasn't, "Yay Regina and Emma are even" or not even "boo, heteronormativity"; it was: "Will it be revealed that Regina's middle name is Marian or something? Otherwise, I'm confused." And then the other stuff happened and I'm guessing fans of the Merry Men Mythos before Once were ultimately of the attitude that, "this show ruins everything." (I'm more into Arthuriana, by the by, which is why I finally decided to sit out this season and rely on fellow fandom members to spoil me.)

 

I literally just summed up the exact trajectory of their complaints for the next 2+ years. You're welcome.

 

All of that would be totally fine, because it would keep the canon-divergent viewers to their individual relationships with the show. If I don't have that same relationship with the show, that should be fine. What you might have tragically missed is the trajectory of the complaints that spill over to canon-divergent-divergent viewers. As I keep saying, if it's just more representation they want, then 1.) rallying for more Sleeping Warrior, or 2.) sitting down to Stjepan Šejić's Sunstone followed by

might be healthier than imposing their view on the showrunners and other fans.

[HoodlumSheep]

Is it bad that I sort of ship Arthur and Zelena now that they've teamed up? Or at least want them to stay partners in crime, even though we'll probably never see Arthur again after 5a is done? King Wicked? Wicked King? Wicked Camelot?

[mjgchick]

I think she deserves better. He'd choose his sword over her. Doesn't she want to keep the baby so it can love her because no one wants her?

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe they'll bond over all the evilness they've been accomplishing? I can dream.

[Curio]

From another thread:

I don't like how 5A is framing Captain Swan as an epic romance. What I liked about CS was that it was a more casual, down-to-earth relationship compared to the surrounding Disney OTPs. They could date, take their time, watch Netflix, etc. It was much more organic and not pre-ordained by magical shenanigans.

 

Emma and Hook have always been presented as an epic romance; the writers have just been good with balancing the epic fairy tale moments with a very slow, realistic, and normal development along the way. Even from the way beginning, the relationship wasn't entirely casual or down-to-earth. Emma met Hook in an enchanted fairy tale land, they climbed a magical bean stalk together, they had a sword fight at a magical lake, they bonded on his ship made of magical wood and sailed to a new magical land, they had a Big Damn Kiss™ in Neverland that was presented as an epic turning point in their romance, Hook traded his legendary ship to help Emma, and then they went time traveling together and had an epic adventure in the Enchanted Forest. Maybe it's just me, but that seems to lean more towards the "epic romance" side than "casual relationship" side. It wasn't until Season 4 where they started doing more normal relationship-y things, and even then, they finished off the season with Hook and Emma battling a dragon on a ship and fighting off an evil king and queen.

 

That's what I like about those two together: they can fight monsters one moment and then watch Netflix the next. I like the two extremes working together. This show is called Once Upon a Time... I didn't sign up for normal, boring relationships I can find on any other drama show; I signed up for epic romances with a twist. I think at the moment in 5A, it's hard for the writers to balance any fun and normal moments because of Emma being the Dark One, but once she's free from that title, I'd imagine she and Hook will go back to being the casually fun pair who occasionally have to pause Master of None to go on an epic adventure and fend off monsters.

 

I don't like how they are giving practically every heartfelt Emma scene to Hook instead of her parents. All Emma is to the writers are Dark Swan plot fodder and CS squee material.  CS actually gets good material, and I just wish they would provide a bit of balance to fans who might want a little more for Emma.

 

I don't think we can lay all the blame on Hook here. Maybe in 5A this is partially true, but this exact same complaint can be traced back through a lot of the half season arcs with different characters. Let's look at 4B: There was barely any Hook in that arc, so we can't blame him. Do we blame Regina then? Why was it Regina who got to go on a road trip with Emma and talk her down from shooting Lily? Why were Snow and Charming given the godawful egg baby plot while Regina and Emma got to battle Chernabogs and have heartfelt conversations in the Alternate Universe? Why couldn't Emma save Snow or David from the Darkness Goop? Let's go back further: 4A. Why did Elsa get to have the heartfelt moment of saving Emma from opening the door? Why was Snow walking slowly down the road discussing Regina's relationship? Why did we spend so much time on Emma feeling bad about Marian and watch an entire episode about Regina yelling at Emma? Let's back up to 3B: Here, we actually have some decent interaction between Charming and Emma, but Snow was often given the shaft with Zelena and the baby plot. Let's go back to 3A: At least there was an attempt by the writers to kind of work on the Charmings' relationship with Emma, and a heartfelt line about Emma was even taken away from Hook and given to Snow during "Lost Girl."

 

So this isn't an individual character issue that's preventing the writers from developing Emma and her parents better, it's that the writers straight-up do not care about developing them anymore.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

I don't "blame" Hook per se, no more than I "blame" Regina for taking up half the screentime.  It's just frustrating when there is such imbalance and then the writers assuming everyone just loves it because there is good material for CS, or Regina or whoever.  I keep myself open to enjoying those scenes too but it's a disappointment nonetheless when the limited amount of time devoted to Emma scenes are given to certain characters over others almost every time.  At least with Elsa, they were developing a new side of Emma... having a friendship.

 

 

 

So this isn't an individual character issue that's preventing the writers from developing Emma and her parents better, it's that the writers straight-up do not care about developing them anymore.

 

I wonder if the writers recognize that and do it anyway, or if it's subconcious.  Because A&E&J seems to claim they still do. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

When they aren't spending time with the new characters they give Emma special moments to Hook and I get that. I get into but I'm kind of bitter that they don't seem to realize what they have done with Emma and her parents. I can't even blame Regina on this because other than that ball episode Regina has not really done much. Other than that cute moment between Snow and Emma the show has just ignored them.

I don't mind that they've made Emma and Hooks relationship grand. But I can't wait for them to get back to normal. I'm kind of exhausted and all I do is feel sorry for Emma in this arc. lol

[Curio]

I wonder if the writers recognize that and do it anyway, or if it's subconscious.  Because A&E&J seems to claim they still do. 

 

It has to be subconscious at this point. The writers probably thought giving Charming one moment where he kicks a chair in frustration over Emma's situation was good enough, but they don't realize that moment doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot if he hasn't been able to interact alone with Emma at all during Season 5. They're making it seem like Charming and Snow have tried to connect with Emma and failed, but we didn't even get to see that. We could have gotten a scene where Snow and Charming call out Emma's name three times to force her to appear, only for Emma to show up and argue that she doesn't want to see them right now. At least if we had a scene like that, I could understand why the Charmings seem so passive about their daughter at the moment, but without that context, they seem to have rolled over way too easily.

 

We also could have gotten some juicy plot in Camelot where a sanded-up Snow and Charming do something bad to Emma under Arthur's command and they have some big emotional moments. But instead, that sand plot point was resolved in a minute with no exploration and we follow it up with a random Belle and Merida adventure that took up an entire hour. The writers clearly have their priorities this half season, and developing Snow and Charming's relationship with Emma isn't one of them. Maybe it will in 5B, but for now, I think we just have to accept that they're more focused on other pairings temporarily.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Curio

[mjgchick]

If they had Emma blame them for something in Camelot that turned out she was just keeping her distance well that's just stupid. Nd even so how do they not have Snow who is usually annoying when it comes to giving people their space not seek out Emma? These writers ain't shit.

That two parter with the side characters could've gone to a Snowing centric episode where they are trying to get their daughter to talk to them you know.

[FierceAfroChick]

I wouldn’t mind at all if the next arc focuses on the Regina/Robin/Zelena mess if I could get Captain Swan/Snowing just hanging out with each other, trying to cope with all that’s happened and struggling (in a good way) to gel as a family.  Like, they’re all at the loft scarfing down Mary Margaret’s clam chowder and Outlaw Queen bursts in wanting to team up on the latest crisis and CaptainCharming clan is like, “Eh…we’re just gonna sit this one out, but the dwarves might be available.”

 

We got little hints of it in S4 (Captain Swan waiting at the diner for Snowing to join them for dinner, Captain Swan going to meet Snowing at Granny's for lunch)...but never actually got to see them sit down and interact.  I think you incorporate all four of them into family scenes, maybe with side pocket conversations between Snow and Hook or David and Emma and that would help give us shared, good moments with Emma's family while introducing different dynamics.  I am dying for some mother-in-law/son-in-law scenes between Snow and Hook.

Edited November 13, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[DigitalCount]

Is it bad that I sort of ship Arthur and Zelena now that they've teamed up? Or at least want them to stay partners in crime, even though we'll probably never see Arthur again after 5a is done? King Wicked? Wicked King? Wicked Camelot?

 

I think she deserves better. He'd choose his sword over her. Doesn't she want to keep the baby so it can love her because no one wants her?

 

Clearly, the solution is for her to change herself into Excalibur.

[KAOS Agent]

This is a quote from Ginny in a recent spoilery article where the writer mentions that fans are annoyed by the lack of Snowing/Emma interaction:

 

“I didn’t think of us as not having a lot of interaction,” Goodwin says. “The Charmings have just been trying to navigate her and figure out how to best support her. They never feel threatened by her. For them, it’s a matter of helping her get what she wants and trusting her to do that in an intelligent way, and also finding a way to save her without frankly threatening her.”

 

I know Ginny is just playing the part that's written for her, but I've seen nothing of this on the actual show. Where are the Charmings in terms of helping her specifically? How can she not recognize that they never had an actual scene with Emma alone where they talked about her Dark One-ness? This is just generic speak for well they love their daughter and are concerned about her even though we don't actually show that onscreen. I see the writers talking up Regina/Emma and Emma/Hook because they understand the Darkness (which is something that I completely disagree with as we've seen that the Dark One stuff is a malevolent weight on Emma's soul that's slowly driving her mad and not simply feelings of anger/revenge, but whatever) and how Regina & Hook will help Emma, but there is never any acknowledgement of Emma's parents in anything I've read from them. How about we take a break from the manufactured and forced Emma/Regina friendship and give us something between Emma and her mother? I do not understand why they refuse to mine the drama from this fractured family relationship. 

[Camera One]

It's tricky since she can't say something that can imply the writers aren't providing that.  Or maybe she's starting to confuse what's in her head with what is actually on the show.  In the past, she has said "I wish there was more between us and Emma"... it would be nice to hear that again.  I can't read spoilers but good on the writer for mentioning Emma/Snowing.  I wish more would do so!

[Rumsy4]

The extent to which A&E have sidelined Emma's relationship with her parents is appalling. But it fits with the overall pattern of lessening Snowing's importance to the story and tearing down their characters to prop up villains.

 

If they're talking of people understanding Darkness, didn't the writers establish that Snowing are the biggest hypocrites to ever hero with darkened hearts? Why couldn't they offer help to Emma as well? Snow would probably put her foot in her mouth several times, but at least they can messily work their way towards an understanding relationship. But no--let's have Snow be a mother to her stepmother and have Charming teach his stepmother-in-law how to dance instead. I'm still not over the fact that Charming has danced with Regina but not with Emma. TS TW.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

And in addition to sidelining the parental relationship, there's also the seemingly complete misunderstanding of how friendship works, with no interest in developing platonic relationships (except for Elsa, again, one of the only "good" examples, maybe because they had to bend over backwards NOT to assassinate the character as per Disney instructions).  

 

Past the first season, there was no interest in showing friendship between Snow and Red; Snow's "friendship" with Grumpy and Granny apparently involves them harping on her to fix the electricity a few days after she has given birth, the "friendship" with the Dwarves involves them snarking that Storybrooke is more peaceful without Snowing, "friendship" with Blue, Aurora and Philip that supposedly involves zero emotion when they find out the other is dead or in danger.  

 

In hindsight, all that hoopla about Charming and Arthur's "bromance" is quite ridiculous.  If that's bromance, who needs friends.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

And in addition to sidelining the parental relationship, there's also the seemingly complete misunderstanding of how friendship works, with no interest in developing platonic relationships (except for Elsa, again, one of the only "good" examples, maybe because they had to bend over backwards NOT to assassinate the character as per Disney instructions).  

 

IMO, even the Emma/Elsa friendship got very little development for all that True Love Friendship handshake. The writers were mostly using it as a prelude to the "epic" Emma/Regina friendship. Emma and Elsa had a couple of meaningful conversations, but were in crisis mode otherwise. Georgina Haig lamented the fact that Elsa and Emma hadn't gone clothes shopping together. Little scenes like that would have added so much to the on-screen development of their friendship. But sadly, that kind of thing falls under the umbrella of kitchen-sink conversations that A&E despise. 

 

It is a shame the writers never developed the friendship between Red and not just Snow, but also with Emma and Charming. The writers started focussing too much on just the main characters interacting with each other (in certain strict combinations) or with guest stars of the arc. I don't see what the point of Storybrooke is anymore. Other than having different costumes, the characters could be in any realm because all they do is deal with crises as a team and fight with villains. There's nothing unique the Storybrooke setting brings to developing the inter-personal relationships in the show.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

If Elsa/Emma was meant for Regina/Emma's friendship development then I'm not sure that was the way to go. I don't really think Elsa/Emma had anything to do with Regina/Emma because Elsa and Emma actually seemed to respect each other. Emma and Lily on the other hand...

[Mathius]

Even Lily ended up acknowledging that she was messed up and didn't deserve any kindness from Emma.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't see what the point of Storybrooke is anymore. Other than having different costumes, the characters could be in any realm because all they do is deal with crises as a team and fight with villains.

 

I think the biggest problem is that they've eliminated the conflict between the members of Team Storybrooke which makes for some very boring interpersonal dynamics. It doesn't help that they ignore the issues that should create tension among the Storybrookers. It's less fun to watch the mains vs the villain of the arc when there's no internal conflict. Even with the Dark Swan arc, they've refused to actually deal with the relationships by having Emma effectively isolate herself. Notice that Snowing, Regina, Robin & Hook are all working together with no disagreement in Storybrooke. It just makes things become a big plot/exposition scene rather than layering it with entertaining relationship dynamics.

[Dianthus]

It's weird, too, because they said they've got all these "headstrong" people trying to help Emma, implying that said people would be butting heads (hey, look, drama!), but we haven't really gotten much conflict out of it. OTOH, when we did (Hook going off on Merlin), the antis just used it as an excuse for bashing their favorite pirate piñata.

[YaddaYadda]

All the Arthur/David "bromance" taught me is that David is a poor judge of character, which I already knew, but still.

 

I was really hoping this arc would explore the conflict between Emma and her parents, but I should know better by now. As happy as I am with the Captain Swan development, and where it's headed, I wish they'd give something to happen between Emma and her parents a chance as well.

[mjgchick]

They really had the perfect opportunity to do it with this arc. This only tells me that the writers don't think theirs anything wrong with Snowing and their daughter. They are just lazy when it comes to writing for the main cast unless it's Hook and Emma's relationship developing more. It's about the only thing they've managed to not screwed up with which worries me because they've gotten so mu h focus this year. lol

[YaddaYadda]

I think they're taking great care not to screw up Captain Swan. Even compared to Snowing, Captain Swan is actually leaps and bounds ahead. And I mean that in the whole "let's eggnap the dragon baby" type of way. 

 

I like that they let Hook and Emma have conversations, weigh the pros and cons of things. They've both said things that have been hurtful to the other. But in all of that, there is always a conversation, and the characters get a POV.

 

So you know they can build a viable relationship.

 

They've just chosen not to do that with Snowing and Emma. Or I should say with Emma and Snow. Because the David/Emma relationship is healthy in comparison.

[mjgchick]

Their no bullshit relationship still surprises me because on this show a lot of the relationships are so lopsided. I remember thinking as soon as those two got together we'd not have them not talk when they don't agree on something. It's good to know the show Still does that with them. Neither coddles the other.

[Serena]

I think they're taking great care not to screw up Captain Swan. Even compared to Snowing, Captain Swan is actually leaps and bounds ahead. And I mean that in the whole "let's eggnap the dragon baby" type of way. 

Stay tuned for season 7, where Emma and Hook kidnap a garden of vegetables that ends up being Blackbeard's son in disguise!

[Shanna Marie]

I'm pretty sure I've made this comparison somewhere before in talking about this show, but in their dealings with the family and extended family relationships, I can't help but think of some of Joss Whedon's shows. He has his own weaknesses as a writer, but one of his big themes is "found families," and he uses a lot of traditional family imagery to show the relationships of these people who aren't related but who come together as families by choice, and one of those is the dinner table. It showed up a lot in both Angel and Firefly, where there were a number of pivotal scenes of these groups of people sitting around a table for a meal, or where the family dinner table was also the meeting ground for strategy sessions. Those meal scenes carried a lot of information about the dynamics of the group and the tone of the situation. It was meaningful who was at the table and who wasn't. It was a big deal when someone was included in the "family" and given a place at the table, and the empty seat was meaningful when someone was absent, whether by choice, by being ousted from the "family" or due to death.

 

This show uses the word "family" a lot, and so much of it is built around that crazy family tree, and yet they seem to be utterly allergic to showing these people even going through the motions of acting like a family. I can think of one true family dinner scene -- the warm, cozy gathering at Granny's that Hook watched from the outside. Otherwise, the closest we've come are a few of those big parties at Granny's where we might have some of the Charmings sitting in the same booth. What's weird is that they've even at times written the idea of a family dinner as being pivotal. They keep patting themselves on the back about the scene in which Regina wasn't invited to the first Charming family dinner after they were all reunited, but we didn't get to see that family dinner, and we didn't get to see the first time Regina was included in the invitation. That one dinner we've seen may actually have been the first because they didn't have a chance before that, but we didn't get to see how that made a difference for Regina in being included this time around. There was a hint that Emma and Hook were meeting her parents for lunch, but we've never had a chance to see the first time Hook actually took them up on an invitation to join them. The first time to join the family for a meal is a pretty big deal for a new boyfriend, and especially one the family hasn't been entirely keen on where there's a lot of potential awkwardness, and they didn't bother to show it.

 

They even dropped in the line from David about being glad their culture didn't have Thanksgiving because the dinner would be awkward, and Henry said while he had his New York persona that he wanted a holiday with more than two plates on the table -- did that come from a real feeling when it was just him and Regina? And now that they have this whole huge family, they haven't bothered to show us what that would look like. Henry's hungry for family, so why isn't he doing more to bring his family together to act like a family?

 

Seriously, have they looked at their family tree and how crazy it is? How could they resist showing "family" type scenes? With this bunch of characters, why wouldn't you want to get in at least one family holiday meal hosted by the Evil Queen (since she's got the biggest house and a nice, big formal dining room), with Snow White, Prince Charming, their daughter, her son, Captain Hook, and Robin Hood in attendance? Maybe even throw in Rumplestiltskin and Belle, depending on how evil he's overtly being that week.

[Camera One]

I can think of one true family dinner scene -- the warm, cozy gathering at Granny's that Hook watched from the outside.

 

but we didn't get to see that family dinner, and we didn't get to see the first time Regina was included in the invitation.

 

And don't forget this year, we got "treated" to a family dinner, once again from the outside in, but this time with Dark Emma.

[mjgchick]

They showed a lot of lonely Dark Emma and even Camelot Emma where she's doing Dream Catchers (I'm shocked they had Hook mentioned that but not her parents not being worried for her.) but you think this stupid show will have Emma talk to her parents about how lonely it was to not have them there with her once this arc is over with? Nah we'll just have Emma back to Sheriff/Savior mode.

Edited November 14, 2015 by mjgchick

[YaddaYadda]

You bring up a great point. The main cast doesn't interact at all, or rarely does.

 

They are used to interact with the supporting cast mainly. Emma has interacted with Merlin. Snow has interacted with Lancelot, David went on an adventure with Arthur, Belle had more screen time with Merida than she did the regular cast in like 2 seasons, and Henry had a whole episode devoted to him going on a date with Violet.

 

The thing is, the Hook/Henry, Hook/Robin, Zelena/Emma, Emma/DO!Rumple, Regina/Snow in 5x04, and even Emma/Regina in 5x05 were good interactions. There's just so very little of that.

 

And all these relationships should matter because all these people affect each other one way or another.

Edited November 14, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

but how many times did we need to see her place the dagger next to the sword in the stone? I got the message. No need to beat it in my head.

 

Oh LOL.  That probably wins as the top "relationship" this half season.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think they're taking great care not to screw up Captain Swan. Even compared to Snowing, Captain Swan is actually leaps and bounds ahead..

Crazy conspiracy time, because why not?: The House of Mouse has kept an eye on the CS relationship, making sure at least one big relationship involving its characters doesn't get royally screwed up.

I told you it was crazy.

I do wish the characters would interact with each other more. Weekly Nevenger meetings at their home base, Granny's Diner, do not count.

Edited November 15, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[mjgchick]

Oh LOL. That probably wins as the top "relationship" this half season.

That is One True Pair potential right there. lol

[Shanna Marie]

And that family dinner was not even really shot as a family dinner. You had Snow and David at one table with Henry. Robin, Regina, and Roland at the next table over - only interaction was Roland leaning over to look at the baby. Hook was drinking at the bar with Belle.

That all worked as a way to show how fractured the family had become, but it would have been so much more effective if we'd ever seen what "normal" looks like. If we'd ever seen the family dinner with Snow and David, Henry, Emma, Regina, Hook joining the mix, maybe even them including Belle while Rumple was out of town, then we'd have had more of the sense of "wrong" when they were splintered like that. It would have had even more emotional resonance because not only was Emma on the outside looking in, but she was also seeing how splintered her family had become. If it's true that she's working a long game and not actually evil or angry at her family but trying to help them in the only way she can see, then that would have been especially painful, knowing that her actions are what's making them like this, and she can't tell them the truth. As it was, this looked fairly normal and they were left with just the one dimension of her on the outside looking in.

[Dianthus]

To expand on a previous comment: there was an episode of BtVS titled Family. It featured a showdown between Tara's bio family (who weren't very supportive of her and wanted to take her away) with Buffy's found family. The resolution of which was provided by Black Sheep Spike.

What we have seen in Once is that family is very important to Hook. The loss of Liam, his willingness to  step back so Neal could fix his relationship with Emma, his interactions with Henry, him interceding on her parents' behalf without them even knowing about it. He is arguably one of the most family-oriented characters on the show.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Dianthus

[RadioGirl27]

This is from the interview I linked in the media thread. I think it explains the writing for Snowing quite well. They are in a happy relationship, so they are boring and they are not interested in them. Kitsis doesn't even mention them here.

 

 

“No relationship is smooth sailing and if it is, it certainly doesn’t belong on TV because it’s boring,” says Kitsis with a laugh. “What we have is complicated relationships between three different couples and we’re going to see those play out.” “We know that Emma and Hook right now have some complications as he’s trying to save her. Robin and Regina are very much in love, but they have to deal with the Zelena of it all. And Rumpel is trying to become a better person, but Belle has been scorned one too many times,” Kitsis continues. “Those are on-going relationships for the series, so they are not arc dependent. We don’t try to wrap them up the way we do with ‘Frozen’ or Camelot or things like that.”

Edited November 15, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Shanna Marie]

What we have seen in Once is that family is very important to Hook. The loss of Liam, his willingness to  step back so Neal could fix his relationship with Emma, his interactions with Henry, him interceding on her parents' behalf without them even knowing about it. He is arguably one of the most family-oriented characters on the show.

That's another big case of lost potential in the relationships on this show. Aside from Emma and now maybe her family (though it's hard to tell what they actually think of him, since we haven't seen much of anything), Hook is utterly alone in the world. If he had anyone in his life still alive before he went to Neverland, they're long gone now. From the sounds of things, he never had much in the way of family other than Liam. So, what does he think about now being part of/on the periphery of this big, weird family? Is it odd to him, comforting, scary? And then there's Henry. To some extent, Henry would be the closest thing Hook has to family even if he weren't Emma's son because he's Bae's son and Milah's grandson. That seemed to be the reason he turned back with the magic bean, which led to him totally turning his life around. Add Emma into the picture, and Henry is the product of everyone outside his immediate family that Hook has loved. The writers seem to have completely forgotten this.

 

I'm not a Robin and Regina fan, either for the individual characters or for the relationship, but even so, I feel kind of ripped off, so I can imagine what their fans feel. That relationship barely even deserves the name "relationship" for all the attention it's been given. There's the slight hiccup of the baby, but we still don't know what Robin and Regina really think or feel about each other, aside from the pixie dust soulmate thing. We have no sense of their vision for their future, what they talk about, what they do together (outside the crypt). It's just a huge, undeveloped blank. I was thinking about this last night when I was reading a magical realism/southern gothic kind of book in which one of the characters had a quasi-magical gift for knowing where things and people belonged. She could often look at someone and get a sense of whether that person belonged where he/she was, sometimes even getting a glimpse of where they did belong. She saw a guy and knew he was totally out of place and that was what was making him unhappy, and then she realized that he belonged with her, which was weird because she didn't know him and didn't know anything about him. When she did get to know him, they ended up bonding in these long, intense conversations full of half sentences they didn't have to complete because they both just understood. They'd been experiencing similar issues and going through similar things, and once they connected, it was like they'd always known each other, even though their relationship made no sense to anyone else because they were from totally opposite social groups and their families were enemies, of a sort. That's the kind of thing I'd expect for pixie-dust-ordained "soulmates." But they just keep telling us that Regina and Robin are soulmates without actually showing it.