Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well... considering her own history, why would Regina care about rape-victims? She always plays the victim. Sooo messed up!

Regina telling Zelena to "stop playing victim" is even worse.

 

 

I don't think Robin even works with the guys.  I didn't feel much chemistry between he and Neal, nor between he and Charming.  Robin and Will and Robin and Hook were slightly better, but not by much.

Robin doesn't gel well with anyone, i agree. I just think that he works better with the guys than with Regina. 

 

 

Regina just dominates them as a couple because he's just there to hold her hand.

Regina pretty much dominates everything. It's not even really a relationship. It's more Robin just so happening to be in the line-up of cheerleaders. You know what I'd like to see? Them breaking up just because it's not working. But that'll never happen. Oddly enough, I believe Regina, Slaughterer of Children and Entire Villages, deserves better.

Edited November 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Oh I agree that Regina deserves better. I'm still hoping that Robin dies or something and it spurs Regina's story into a different direction. Perhaps she goes off the rails and meets someone new, someone who isn't associated in any way with the actions of the Evil Queen, who helps her move on into a lovely new relationship that is not pixie dust related. That would be a relationship I could get invested in. This new character would also need to actually have a personality, not be afraid to give as good as he got and have a life outside of Regina and her issues.

[Camera One]

Too bad the writers couldn't see their way out of the paper bag which is Regina/Robin.  They could have given Robin a happy ending with Marian and we would all have been cheering as they left Storybrooke and lived out their happy ending in Sherwood Forest.

[LizaD]

I don't think Robin is the problem. Woegina is. He's not allowed to have a personality because he's just there for propping her. Anyone they stick in her breathing space is going to have the same problem and end up as a block of wood. They are literally incapable of writing any character in her circle organically. Changing the character isn't going to solve anything.

It's the same problem with Rumbelle and Snowing where Rump and Snow are their main concern and Charming and Belle are relegated to love interest hell. It's the way these writers write and think "romance." The Robin situation is just exacerbated by a million because they just love Mary Sue Victim that much more.

Hook and Emma are the only ones approaching anywhere near an attempt at balance. And that's probably solely due to the fact that their interest in Emma isn't all that huge and they have more interest in Hook than the rest of the bench players. Yes their story is mainly driven by Emma's issues but Hook gets his say so on every single one of her moments, excluding when she has to go prop Woegina. He's never excluded from anything Emma does or feels and we always know how he thinks or feels in response to Emma from day 1.

The other 3 might as well be a blank slate in their other SO's life. There's only room for how Woegina, Rump or Snow feels about something. Belle and Robin are excluded from a huge portion of their SO's life. Charming fares slightly better here as Snow and him are attached at the hips.

But to be honest I don't really care for any of the romantic relationships so the bad writing doesn't really bother me that much, The non-romantic ones were always more interesting but the sucky writing does them in every time. I'm more disapponted in the way Snowing and their kid, Rump and Bae, the whole Pan clan, Ingrid/Elsa/Emma, Snow and Ruby, Mal and everyone etc., went down. I want to see more Merlin and Arthur, and Arthur and Lancelot but not going to get that either. Also Snow and Ingrid never sharing a scene kills me too.

[KingOfHearts]

Well, they could at least pick someone whose wife wasn't murdered by Regina, or someone whose entire moral complex isn't against everything Regina represents. I agree that whoever they choose is going to be a prop to her. Everyone on the show is a prop to Regina and that's just a fact of life. But Outlaw Queen isn't just boring - it's gross. There's crypt sex, the Love Triangle of Doom, and now this Zelena baby being thrown into the mix. You might be able to blame that on Regina's writing, but my wish is to get someone who wasn't a victim of the Evil Queen back in EF.

 

 

It's the same problem with Rumbelle and Snowing where Rump and Snow are their main concern and Charming and Belle are relegated to love interest hell.

Eh, the writers have put more effort into Charming and Belle than they ever have with Robin. Granted he's the newest comer to the group, but he's only gotten one centric and it was mostly just to re-introduce Zelena. At least Charming and Belle have gotten one-offs and have fought for their loves in some manner. What has Robin done? Saved Regina's butt from a self-destructing doorknob? A&E have constantly thrown in distractions like Marian and Zelena because they don't want to write for Robin. The real couple here is Regina and exterior obstacles.

Edited November 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[october]

Did they waste an opportunity? Instead of Regina being the queen she is at the ball she was parented by Snow and Charming because suddenly she didn't know how to dress or dance. Never mind that Charming didn't dance with his own daughter at their first ball together.

 

That's kinda what I meant: Get rid of the scene of Regina being coached by Snow and Charming (it raised far too many questions and was pretty distasteful considering the characters' histories with one another) and replace it with a scene of Regina teaching Robin to dance (before the ball, not during). Follow that up with an entirely separate scene where Snowing are helping Emma get ready for the first ball they'll share as a family unit.

Edited November 6, 2015 by october

[LizaD]

 

But Outlaw Queen isn't just boring - it's gross. There's crypt sex, the Love Triangle of Doom, and now this Zelena baby being thrown into the mix.

 

Yeah well which one of Woegina's "relationships" aren't gross? Snow and Woegina are gross, Graham and Woegina are gross, Emma and Woegina are gross, Henry and Woegina are gross, Jefferson and Woegina, Belle and Woegina etc. There's a common denominator here and it isn't Robin Hood. All those plot points above are for one purpose and that's to showcase Woegina's pain and suffering. They flat out said it. It's not like Robin had all this history on the show and then they shoved him to Woegina. They consciously made an effort to write him for Woegina and those are the ways they chose to do it. The reason why they chose it are very clear and they all have to do with Woegina's pain, not Robin. They could've done anything with him and written anything for a nothing character with no history besides a guest starring stint with Rumbelle. They wrote what they wrote not because of who Robin is but because of who Woegina is.

 

 

You might be able to blame that on Regina's writing, but my wish is to get someone who wasn't a victim of the Evil Queen

But that is THE problem. They don't see any of these people as Woegina's victim so yeah they're giving you a non-victim of the EQ in Robin Hood. Just like Snow, Graham, Greg/Owen, Percival, the slaughtered village weren't Woegina's victims. Instead all these people contributed to her pain and suffering. Only she's allowed to be the victim. I mean these are the same writers, (plus the actress herself) that described Graham and Woegina as cute, fun and flirty! That says it all doesn't it?

 

 

Eh, the writers have put more effort into Charming and Belle than they ever have with Robin.

Yes they sure did and I said it with this:

 

 

The Robin situation is just exacerbated by a million because they just love Mary Sue Victim that much more.

 

It's still the same problem. The varying degrees of the problem doesn't change the root cause. Robin's centric was repurposed for Zelena sure but most of Charming and Belle's centrics were to give background info about guest stars too. Hell Emma can barely buy a centric herself. The first full flashback of her childhood after 4 seasons was to "re-introduce" Woegina's pain.

Edited November 6, 2015 by LizaD

[KingOfHearts]

I can't pin this all on Regina. Her relationships were not always disgusting to watch. She melded well with Emma for 3 seasons, for example. I don't mind if her relationship is twisted. Rumple/Cora was gross but I still enjoyed it. But don't pick an icon like Robin Hood to tear down. She needs someone who isn't disturbed by immorality by nature. Robin can't shut up about his "honor", making it very nonsensical that he would date the murderer of his wife.

Changing her love interest won't solve her problems. My point is that if we're going to lobotomized a fairy tale character to prop Regina up, there are more entertaining options out there. YMMV. I don't expect the writers to give Regina a good love interest plot. They can't write her well to save their lives. But if they could, I'd have a few ideas how. It's really not the character... it's the masters pulling the strings.

Edited November 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I think Regina is past the point of needing an understanding prop boyfriend. She needs someone to tell her the truth and who feels okay doing it. If Robin feels like he can't express some happiness about the baby, how much else does he not feel comfortable expressing? It's just not healthy for either of them. 

[YaddaYadda]

If Regina makes him feel like he was wrong with this whole baby thing, and what happened with Zelena, then there's no point in them being in a relationship in the 1st place.

[KingOfHearts]

I think Regina is past the point of needing an understanding prop boyfriend. She needs someone to tell her the truth and who feels okay doing it. If Robin feels like he can't express some happiness about the baby, how much else does he not feel comfortable expressing? It's just not healthy for either of them.

Totally agree. It all hinges on what the writers want to accomplish with a love interest. If they want one to further propel her redemption arc, a voice of conviction would do her good. Robin, surprisingly because of his concept, is not that. If the goal was just someone fun to watch who could even accompany the Evil Queen, then Frollo all the way.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Regina is past the point of needing an understanding prop boyfriend. She needs someone to tell her the truth and who feels okay doing it.

That's assuming that the writers think Regina needs to improve at all or have any truths told to her. I got the impression that they actually thought Robin was somewhat in the wrong for being happy about the baby, or at least that he was right for feeling bad about feeling happy.

 

The big mistake with that relationship was the pixie dust. When a couple are designated as soulmates, there's no development to work through. They just are, apparently. What's weird is that they haven't bothered showing us how soulmatey they are. You'd think that magically ordained soulmates would show constant evidence of clicking and meshing -- like finishing each other's sentences, independently coming up with the same idea, knowing what was going on with each other just by sense. Like, Regina, Robin's soulmate, should be getting a sense about him being happy about the baby. But they've made no effort to show how perfect for each other they are or to show how their relationship works.

 

On the Belle and Rumple front, I had actually been wondering if Elsa had paid a visit to hell and we'd get Hook advocating for Rumple to Belle -- since he defended pre-Dark One Rumple to Emma as "a good man trying to keep his family together," would he have defended non-Dark One Rumple to Belle as being a good man if she was freaked out by how different he was as the Dark One? But I guess it's a moot point because he's a hero now.

[KAOS Agent]

That's assuming that the writers think Regina needs to improve at all or have any truths told to her. I got the impression that they actually thought Robin was somewhat in the wrong for being happy about the baby, or at least that he was right for feeling bad about feeling happy.

 

I suppose it's possible that they think Regina is the perfect one in that relationship, but it seems to me like Robin is allowed to have feelings and he is not in the wrong to express them. If nothing else, he's allowed to be confused about it and he should be talking to his partner about it to help him work through it all. They are planning to bring that baby home to live with them, so it's not like this can just be ignored until it goes away.

 

I do think the designated soul mates thing harms the interest in their relationship. There's no will they won't they, no doubts or internal struggle about whether this is the right person for them. It just is. I felt a little bit the same way about the Snowing romance in Season 1 because love at first sight isn't something I'm big on, but since that one was already a done deal, it wasn't as big of an issue. Plus, they were struggling with a new and more complex romance in the present. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Yeah, I remember being disappointed that Snowing ended up being just love at first sight.  I really thought they would show Snow and Charming slowly falling in love but they quickly burst the bubble on that, and fell back on the usual one external obstacle after another from betrothed-to-someone-else, to drink-a-no-love-potion, to separation-by-imprisonment, etc, etc, etc.  Frankly, they demonstrated they had no interest in building a proper romance even back then.  They lucked out majorly that Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas had amazing chemistry in that first waking up scene.  If not for that, this show could very well have fallen flat on its face.  Which makes the Emma/Hook romance sort of surprising coming from these writers, but maybe it just indicates they love Hook more than everyone except Regina, or even Regina, in this case, since her love interest development has been the worst written despite her being their favorite character.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

since her love interest development has been the worst written despite her being their favorite character.

 

Their love for adding one more person to the list of Regina-worshippers probably trumped any inclination to write a proper romance for her.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I agree.  It's rooted in the writers' belief that Regina deep down deserves a happy ending.  She deserves to be respected and looked up to, she deserves to have friends, she deserves to have sympathy, she deserves to find love again.  Just like they don't have the character work for or earn any of these by making her insta-respected (eg. Grumpy earlier this season) and an insta-hero (in 3B with insta-white magic and insta-new-Curse-Breaker breakthrough), giving her insta-sympathetic-friends in Snow and Emma without ever truly apologizing to them, insta-repair in her relationship with Henry, and finally to giving her an insta-pixie-dust-fated-true-love.  It's all the same problem wrapped in sheep's clothing.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

Is Tinkerbell Regina's best relationship? Yeah she's the reason why OQ is happening but she's not one of Regina's victims compared to everyone else. To bad Tink's a Zombie now.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't think they're interested in writing a romance for Regina at all, which is why Robin is just a cardboard cut out they use to drive her actions. They even admitted in an interview going into S4 that Outlaw Queen was all about Regina. They couldn't care less about Robin or Marian. Lana said that she asked for Regina to get a love interest and while it's fine to ask, if the writers aren't really into writing it or don't have a story they want to tell about it, you're going to end up with something that's not all that great. I think that's how we ended up with Outlaw Queen. 

[Camera One]

It's all about the drama with these writers, and relationships are no different.  It's one person hiding something from the other person, love triangles or some over-the-top change in one or the other (eg. 3A with the triangle, 3B with Hook and the cursed lips secret from Emma, 4A with Rumple's blackmail secret from Emma, 4A with Rumple lying to Belle, 4B with the Will/Rumple/Belle, 4A with Marion showing up out of the blue and then frozen to interrupt the happy Outlaw Queen, 4B with the Zelena pregnancy reveal and now 5A Hook dealing with Dark Swan instead of actual Emma).  The only couple that hasn't had these conflicts as much are Snow and Charming, since they are treated as a single character (you can't even say Snow dominates over Charming anymore since they pretty much have interchangeable dialogue), so they get to keep secrets from Emma instead of with each other.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Camera One

[Serena]

Is Tinkerbell Regina's best relationship? Yeah she's the reason why OQ is happening but she's not one of Regina's victims compared to everyone else. To bad Tink's a Zombie now.

Yes, I think so. I also thought Rose was the one with whom she had the best chemistry (I wasn't impressed by "DragonQueen").

[Lieutenant]

I think Regina is past the point of needing an understanding prop boyfriend. She needs someone to tell her the truth and who feels okay doing it. If Robin feels like he can't express some happiness about the baby, how much else does he not feel comfortable expressing? It's just not healthy for either of them. 

 

ITA.  This just makes CS scenes stand out in suck stark contrast.  "Swan. Stop talking to the demon in your head and get on the horse."  Even back in 3b with Emma being deliberately hurtful to him and wanting to leave Storybrooke, he pinned her down right away.  Was she doing this because it's "better" for Henry, or for her?  Did Emma like it?  Hell no.  But their relationship is so much more organic and believable because of situations like this.  And there was never any doubt that Hook was doing it out of love for her, to make her better and help her grow.  The fact that Robin feels like he can't be honest with Regina (over whatever issue) is really sad, and kinda pathetic?  Makes one wonder why he sticks around, since there doesn't appear to be much benefit for him in it.

 

I don't know how CS has become such a wonderful love story in this show, but I pray to the TV gods that it remains that way.  

[OnceUponAJen]

I also loved the way that Emma called out Hook lying to her about Ursula. And then they agreed to see the best in each other. That was such a great scene between them, despite being rudely interrupted by Snowing.

[Shanna Marie]

I wouldn't say that Snow and Charming were entirely love at first sight because they had that bit of antagonism at first, then they had their little adventure together, and then they had that bolt of lightning moment. So there was at least some foundation to them falling in love because they had a shared experience (and a lot of adrenaline). With Robin and Regina, he went straight to calling her bold and audacious, pouring drinks, and staring at her ass when they met, and she went instantly gaga and gave him her heart (literally) when she saw the tattoo. Never mind that their interaction was totally different when they really first met in the missing year.

 

Snow and Charming then had to fight for each other before they could be together. They had to overcome all kinds of obstacles and make sacrifices for each other. I don't think Zelena-as-Marian quite compares, especially since it wasn't going to be an obstacle if she hadn't come up with the frozen heart because they'd decided to be together and he was planning to leave "Marian" for her. Then the obstacle was entirely removed due to outside forces (the revelation of Zelena), not by anything they did to fight for their relationship.

 

As for which character the writers love and how that affects the relationship writing, I think the writers love Regina like she's a person. They want to give her all the good things, including a relationship, and they can't bear for her to suffer for long. So the Marian angst didn't last too long before Robin chose her, and then when he was stuck with Marian, it turned out to be Zelena, after all, so he was free and clear for Regina, and now they're just together, with no real issues at all. They haven't had to work through any personal stuff in becoming a couple. We haven't seen them discussing their respective pasts. Unless they actually do something with his mixed feelings about the baby and fear of talking to Regina about it (I'm not holding my breath), they jumped straight to Happily Ever After.

 

On the other hand, I get the impression that the writers love Hook as a character to write for, and they seem to love Colin as an actor, so they give him challenges. They write all kinds of difficult stuff for Hook to go through, and they've made his relationship something he's constantly having to fight for, mostly within himself. They aren't afraid to really hurt Hook and make him suffer or to give him internal issues to wrestle with. So he gets all that guilt and remorse, he has to deal with the pain of possibly losing Emma. It's a constant struggle -- the kind of thing that's fun to write for a character, and I can imagine it would be fun to watch someone act stuff you've written like that. And because they know Hook isn't a real person, they aren't too worried about whether or not he's happy or getting what he wants as long as he's entertaining.

[Rumsy4]

I think both Lana and A&E have lost perspective when it comes to Regina.

I think it's natural for Regina to have mixed feelings, even resentment, about Robin's baby through Zelena. But so far, we haven't seen her talk it out with Robin. She makes all the decisions about the baby. Does Robin even know Zelena is being force fed raw organic vegetables? Is he okay with Regina raising the baby when she is clearly not happy about the situation? I guess all this will play out in 5B.

[LizaD]

 

Yeah, I remember being disappointed that Snowing ended up being just love at first sight.

 

I loved the Snowing romance back in S1, the fairy tale portion of it anyway. It was quintessential fairy tale and let's face it people, and by people I mean the general audience, watch this show to watch a fairy tale. When it stopped being a "fairy tale" is when people went away in droves. It was the same with Rumbelle in Skin Deep. Contained in that lone episode, it had the classic fairy tale feel to it. It was only when they tried to make it a drama and a soap opera that it all went to hell. Like the Storybrooke version of MM and David. It was so trite it almost ruined any enjoyment from the flashbacks.

 

 

Frankly, they demonstrated they had no interest in building a proper romance even back then

Which makes sense if you think about it. Their original plan for the show didn't include present David. They killed him off in the EF. It was network execs who said no with that one. And people might claim that A&E love Hook now, but it was also network execs who told A&E to make him a regular before he aired.

[Serena]

I think both Lana and A&E have lost perspective when it comes to Regina.

I think it's natural for Regina to have mixed feelings, even resentment, about Robin's baby through Zelena. But so far, we haven't seen her talk it out with Robin. She makes all the decisions about the baby. Does Robin even know Zelena is being force fed raw organic vegetables? Is he okay with Regina raising the baby when she is clearly not happy about the situation? I guess all this will play out in 5B.

I know this isn't nice to say, but I think Lana's love for Regina has really hurt the character in the long run. I get the impression Lana loves Regina like she's a real person, for whom she wants all good things to happen, and not like she's a fictional character, for whom she wants good writing to happen.

 

Which makes sense if you think about it. Their original plan for the show didn't include present David. They killed him off in the EF. It was network execs who said no with that one. And people might claim that A&E love Hook now, but it was also network execs who told A&E to make him a regular before he aired.

Are you just assuming that? Because it wasn't confirmed anywhere that it was network execs who told them to make him a regular. The closest thing to someone telling A&E what to do re: Colin's employment was Eddy's wife telling him he better hire him after watching his audition tape.

[LizaD]

 

Are you just assuming that? Because it wasn't confirmed anywhere that it was network execs who told them to make him a regular.

 

No I'm not. It was in a magazine interview they did, not an online one. I'd have to dig it up but I believe it was the same one that they told the story of killing off Charming in the pilot. I think the connection was what the network execs made us do. It might've also been where they told the story that the execs made them change Emma's name from Anna cause one of them had a connection to the name Emma or something. I just remember it being a big Once edition with a bunch of little tidbits like that.

[maryle]

Colin himself claimed this summer he knew when he got the parthe will be a loved interest eventually he was just unsure with whom at the time. So without real proof to contrary I will believe what the actor said and the writer of the show multiple times ( wanted Hook since season 1, always knew Hook will love Emma...) about the debate over Colin first arrived on the show.

[mjgchick]

It was pretty clear who he was going to be make cute with by the time Tallahassee aired. Comparing CS to SF where Emma trusted one and he screwed her over so she made sure not to let that happen again with this time she being the screwie.

Emma with Hook on that bean stock just felt different from how she was with others.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't know how CS has become such a wonderful love story in this show, but I pray to the TV gods that it remains that way.

 

I think their relationship works the best because the writers see both people in the relationship as actual fully drawn characters. All of the other main relationships on the show have a character and then their prop. Let's examine how the eggnapping situation would have gone down between all four of the mains.

 

Snowing - David argues it's stupid, but like always, caves to whatever Snow wants. Baby is lost.

 

Outlaw Queen - Regina just goes off and does it and Robin is never informed about it.

 

Rumbelle - Rumpel puts Belle to sleep, then steals the egg.

 

Captain Swan - Emma thinks it might be a good idea. Hook says hell no and points out all the reasons it's stupid and a bad idea. A discussion ensues and they decide that their baby is perfect no matter what, so no egg stealing occurs.

 

One of these things is not like the other because one of them actually involves both parties having an opinion and then discussing it to ultimately come up with the best way to handle things. Belle & Robin don't get opinions. David sometimes has one, but it never matters because Snow always gets her way. That's the way it works on this show. 

[KingOfHearts]

I loved the Snowing romance back in S1, the fairy tale portion of it anyway. It was quintessential fairy tale and let's face it people, and by people I mean the general audience, watch this show to watch a fairy tale. When it stopped being a "fairy tale" is when people went away in droves.

Amen. Snow and Charming work for me because their traditional romance brought a sense of familiarity to the show's early stages. While the fairy tale stories could get twisted into knots, Snowing's relationship brought things back to what we all know. It's more about what happened after they fell in love then before, anyway. I give them a pass on it.

 

 

David argues it's stupid, but like always, caves to whatever Snow wants. Baby is lost.

Why is Charming always the wrong one? He suggested burning the page... can't ruin Regina's happiness! He suggested trusting Arthur... Lancelot is totes legit! He wanted to teach Henry how to drive... Snow's hesitation was validated! Is it me, or has it never been the other way around?

Edited November 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

I know this isn't nice to say, but I think Lana's love for Regina has really hurt the character in the long run. I get the impression Lana loves Regina like she's a real person, for whom she wants all good things to happen, and not like she's a fictional character, for whom she wants good writing to happen.

Unless she's thrown a diva fit about a plot development and cowed the writers (hearsay parallel: an aborted love triangle arc between Paige Matthews, Phoebe Halliwell, and Cole-Balthazar because Alyssa Milano was a producer) that might not be on her at all. Actors' jobs are to say the lines they're given. If she happens to enjoy the Mary Sue treatment of Regina and the fawning fans, I can't blame her.

 

Their original plan for the show didn't include present David. They killed him off in the EF. It was network execs who said no with that one. And people might claim that A&E love Hook now, but it was also network execs who told A&E to make him a regular before he aired.

Are you just assuming that? Because it wasn't confirmed anywhere that it was network execs who told them to make him a regular. The closest thing to someone telling A&E what to do re: Colin's employment was Eddy's wife telling him he better hire him after watching his audition tape.

 

No I'm not. It was in a magazine interview they did, not an online one. I'd have to dig it up but I believe it was the same one that they told the story of killing off Charming in the pilot. I think the connection was what the network execs made us do. It might've also been where they told the story that the execs made them change Emma's name from Anna cause one of them had a connection to the name Emma or something. I just remember it being a big Once edition with a bunch of little tidbits like that.

 

I think it was in the first season Secrets of Storybrooke special? Prince Charming was supposed to die in the pilot, and as Adam tells it to the camera, the executives were like, "So...Snow White doesn't have  chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No." And Adam finished, "On that one point they were right." And then the featurette showed Josh going, "We spend a lot of time together and it bleeds over..." and Ginny's like, "I bet we annoy everyone on set!"

[Rumsy4]

I know this isn't nice to say, but I think Lana's love for Regina has really hurt the character in the long run. I get the impression Lana loves Regina like she's a real person, for whom she wants all good things to happen, and not like she's a fictional character, for whom she wants good writing to happen.

 

I agree. There is a huge shift between S1 and S2, and particularly, S2 and S3. Lana specifically said that she "fought" for her and Henry's relationship, and she framed it as fighting against the "biological" mother stealing the kid away from the adopted mother. Regina is the Evil freaking Queen. The only reason Emma decided to stay was because she didn't think Regina loved Henry with the whole lie-detector thing, and because Regina was gaslighting her son. Emma didn't even believe herself capable of being Henry's mother at first.

 

I really think JMo's agents failed her there, because the narrative distinctly shifted in favor of Regina past S1. S2 made Emma and Snowing look evil for excluding poor Regina from their group. S3 took everything Emma had and gave it to Regina with less than 1% of the effort. S4 is even worse in the Emma/Regina/Henry dynamic because it made Emma join Henry and Snow in worshipping Regina.

 

A&E bought into the whole adopted vs biological mother business when it was never about that in the beginning. Why work on Regina and Henry's broken relationship, when you can insta fix it with grand gestures and heart-less True Love kisses? Have Henry not only confess he was wrong about Regina not loving him, but also regret bringing Emma to Storybrooke. Have Henry spend all his time and energy to bring Regina a "romantic" Happy Ending. What even? How is any of this a natural relationship development? 

Edited November 8, 2015 by Rumsy4

[kili]

"So...Snow White doesn't have  chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No." And Adam finished, "On that one point they were right."

Rarely have I wanted the network execs to interfere more...this show is the exception.

[KingOfHearts]

 

"So...Snow White doesn't have  chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No." And Adam finished, "On that one point they were right."

Replying in Writers thread.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Have Henry spend all his time and energy to bring Regina a "romantic" Happy Ending.

 

That's really, really sick if you apply the general slang meaning for happy ending.

 

 

Why is Charming always the wrong one? He suggested burning the page... can't ruin Regina's happiness! He suggested trusting Arthur... Lancelot is totes legit! He wanted to teach Henry how to drive... Snow's hesitation was validated! Is it me, or has it never been the other way around?

 

I think David was allowed to chew Snow out that time she tried suicide by Regina, but other than that, David is always seen as going along with whatever his wife wants no matter his personal opinion on it. Why he can't once just say he won't be party to her stupid schemes, I don't know. I was really hoping the Snowing fight they were touting for S5 would actually involve David taking a stand, but sadly it was just more of David in the wrong. Of course, that doesn't matter because whenever David is in the right in the argument, they always do the opposite anyway.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it was in the first season Secrets of Storybrooke special? Prince Charming was supposed to die in the pilot, and as Adam tells it to the camera, the executives were like, "So...Snow White doesn't have  chance at a happy ever after anymore?" and he and Eddie were like, "Yeah!!! Isn't that awesome?!?" And the executives were like, "No."

 

Considering that the show's premise started out with "Can the Evil Queen have her happy ending", it shows how A&E's minds work.

 

Regina gets her happy ending / Snow white, her victim, well the man she loves is dead, so there goes that!

[OnceUponAJen]

Yes, the eggnapping plot was clearly where Snow really went off the rails. I was hoping that Charming would get to talk some sense into her on that subject and put his foot down. It seemed too out of character for Charming to just go along with it. The whole thing felt wrong, but it was all to serve the narrative that heroes can do evil things too.

[Dianthus]

For me, it never fails to confound and dismay that, even with a character they love as much as Regina, they've sacrificed so much storytelling potential - mostly on the alter of plot, Plot, PLOT!

I was unaware of their plan to kill off Charmz so early on. I suppose that explains why they treat his character as they do. They're stuck with him.

It really is Bizzaro World!

[Serena]

Unless she's thrown a diva fit about a plot development and cowed the writers (hearsay parallel: an aborted love triangle arc between Paige Matthews, Phoebe Halliwell, and Cole-Balthazar because Alyssa Milano was a producer) that might not be on her at all. Actors' jobs are to say the lines they're given. If she happens to enjoy the Mary Sue treatment of Regina and the fawning fans, I can't blame her.

I'm not saying she "threw a diva fit". But she DID say, publicly (there's video of it) that she went to the writers and asked for the Henry/Regina relationship to be changed. And they did change it. And she also asked for Regina to have a love interest (when S3 should have been wholly dedicated to fixing her relationship with Henry).

Now clearly, they are the bosses and the blame is ultimately on them for the shitty writing they did. They could have said no. I'm just saying, I think Lana's instincts for her character have not been for the better. Contrast to Robert, who doesn't really give a shit if Rumple gets an "happy ending", because he realizes Rumple being happy and domesticated makes for a boring character.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Serena

[mjgchick]

It's a good thing ABC stepped in because in S1 I don't really know anyone personally who was rooting for Regina. People I talked to were so disgusted by her especially after we found out why she hated Snow White. Regina's hate for Snow is so freaking petty. Maybe the writers resent Snow and Charming because they couldn't let Snow be miserable? It's the only way I can think of why they've fucked up Emma's relationship with her parents especially when she and Mary Margaret were such good friends in S1.

 

On the other hand I still maintain their favorite twosome to write for is Emma and Hook. I don't know if it's because they ship it themselves, if it's because they enjoy watching the two actors or if it's because someone else is writing for them. lol

[Faemonic]

Lana specifically said that she "fought" for her and Henry's relationship, and she framed it as fighting against the "biological" mother stealing the kid away from the adopted mother.

 

I'm not saying she "threw a diva fit". But she DID say, publicly (there's video of it) that she went to the writers and asked for the Henry/Regina relationship to be changed. And they did change it. And she also asked for Regina to have a love interest (when S3 should have been wholly dedicated to fixing her relationship with Henry).

Now clearly, they are the bosses and the blame is ultimately on them for the shitty writing they did. They could have said no. I'm just saying, I think Lana's instincts for her character have not been for the better.

 

Nope, no, I agree...that sounds to me as something waaay out of an actor's wainscoting, but if that's how well they work behind the camera then that's just it.

 

As for whether making Captain Hook a regular in the show was A&E's long-term plan from the show's conception, or just improvised because Colin killed the audition (whether going along with that was the call of showrunners/writers or executives)...it would be an interesting bit of trivia if we could be sure either way, but I'm not sure why it matters beyond that?

 

(These conversations about how the relationships are handled because of executive meddling or other behind-the-scenes stuff seem to come up mostly because the onscreen, in-show relationships aren't robust enough or organic enough to discuss as though they were people rather than characters.)

[Rumsy4]

Yet another episode where Snowing and Dark Swan don't talk in Storybrooke (or Camelot for that matter). 

[mjgchick]

We'll have to hope Dark Emma and her parents bump into each other by accident at this point. Holycrap the writers hate this relationship.

[Camera One]

They chose to have a nice Emma/Hook goodbye scene instead.  They probably figured another one with Snowing would be redundant.  I doubt they even considered it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Serena]

So at the beginning of the season we were saying, "Oh yeah, Emma probably *thinks* they failed her, but they didn't really!" - but holy crap, they DID. The Nevengers were absolute morons. While Emma managed to defeat the incredible power and tempation of the Dark One, they could even steal a sword from douche!Arthur. Seriously? Not to mention, leaving only *Snow* to guard Zelena? Robin should have been there too, what could he do that Regina, Charming and Hook couldn't do alone? Absolutely nothing. And why wouldn't Regina put some kind of spell on Zelena to keep her in chains until they returned?

[YaddaYadda]

Am I the only one who did not see the epic love story between Nimue and Merlin? I mean I know what Elliot Knight said about it sort of falling in line with Snowing/Captain Swan, but nope.  

 

He couldn't get a read on her, could not see her future. 

He failed to see how much pain she was in over her losses.

 

Merlin is clueless. I guess it comes with very old age, but still. Did not see it. I think that maybe this is the one thing that remains true to the Arthurian legend, that Merlin loved Nimue, but it was sort of wishy washy. When push came to shove, Nimue did what Rumple has done countless times. She chose power over everything else that he was giving her.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ i wish Nimlin had a few more scenes together before she turned evil. It would have made it a little bit better. The actors had enough chemistry to pull off what the scenes they were given though, so kudos to them.

[Curio]

Yet another episode where Snowing and Dark Swan don't talk in Storybrooke (or Camelot for that matter). 

 

We're more than halfway through the season and we haven't had a single Snow/Charming/Emma or Charming/Emma scene alone. I just...how? How does that even happen? We've had Regina/Henry/Emma and even Belle/Merida/Gold/Emma this season. Did Ginny and Josh do something to piss off the writers or what? Or is it a case of 4B Hook where they get too overwhelmed with the giant cast and choose one of the regulars to set aside for half an arc?

 

Am I the only one who did not see the epic love story between Nimue and Merlin? I mean I know what Elliot Knight said about it sort of falling in line with Snowing/Captain Swan, but nope. 

 

I think we were supposed to see some red flags right away and get the vibe that Merlin was more into Nimue than she was into him. Or maybe that's just the vibe I got from the actors. I felt like something was "off" with them, even though Merlin was doing some very romantic gestures like showing off his flower growing abilities and turning a stem engagement ring into gold. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think we were supposed to see some red flags right away and get the vibe that Merlin was more into Nimue than she was into him. Or maybe that's just the vibe I got from the actors. I felt like something was "off" with them, even though Merlin was doing some very romantic gestures like showing off his flower growing abilities and turning a stem engagement ring into gold. 

It seemed to me like she might've settled because she had no where to go, no family left. She stayed because he wanted her to stay. She loved him enough, but it wasn't the kind of love that made her heart beat hard enough.

 

Plus who hides stuff like immortality from their significant other? It was like oh no biggie! Immortal, been at this for about 500 years now. He was willing to give up more than she was.

 

This is the second couple they draw "anti-parallels" with when it comes to Captain Swan.