Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

What I found less convincing was Neal's suddenly resurgent feelings of love for Emma. Like what? He's totally cool with her pretending she couldn't catch him, didn't bother to go to Storybrooke once the curse broke, "needs" his fiancee and seems totally into Tamara and then two minutes after she tries to kill him, he's all in love with Emma. Please.

 

Well, the Tamara obstacle was the most contrived aspect of the entire plot.  Just because Tamara bumped into him and coffee was spilled doesn't mean she could so easily get him to fall in love with her.  It would have been more believable if after Neal got the postcard, he was torn between going to Storybrooke but also being deathly afraid to.  For him as well, there was no closure with what happened to Emma.  He would have felt guilty which he would have avoided thinking about, by desperately justifying it, saying to himself that it was better for Emma not to have him in her life.  He might have used meeting Tamara as an excuse that this was meant to be.  And so his feelings for Emma would also have been suppressed and pushed deep down, and should have come rushing back when he saw Emma again for the first time.  Which made it even more weird that they never had him question his engagement to Tamara. Though I do think that with the exception of the situation with Emma and how that was mixed up with his father, Neal was a pretty loyal person.  Maybe that explains his attachment to Tamara.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Mari]

Since Tamara seems to have known who Neal was the whole time, (did we ever find out how?), the whole relationship--Neal's love on/love-off reaction, for example--could be explained by a love potion that expired when she did.  

 

I just figure that's yet another thing that happened in Offscreenville.  

[Camera One]

Since Tamara seems to have known who Neal was the whole time, (did we ever find out how?)

 

I'm assuming she was just stalking August after meeting him in Hong Kong.  I think we fanwanked before that Tamara would know all about Neal's likes and dislikes from "Home Office", so she could play him like a pied piper.

[didia]

I don't think Neal was in love with Emma. ( I'm talking about the present time, in the past he may have loved her, but his feelings weren't as strong as his fear of his father). That is my unpopular opinion. I believe he wanted a family. It is understandable, after everything that happened with his parents. He wanted a traditional family with Henry, and Emma was part of that. I always felt he didn't want her for the person she was, but what she represented. You don't treat someone you love the way he treated Emma when they met each other again. They didn't show us how Neal fell in love with Tamara, but he sounded genuine. The fact that he didn't give a damn that she died, and never mentioned her betrayal was something that made me dislike his caracter even more.

 

The truth is: I never liked the theory that Bae and Neal were the same character. When it happened on the show, I had even more reasons to dislike it. Bae's main relationship should have been with Rumple, he was his "holy grail" after all. He would have to interact with Hook and Belle, they could tie him with the Charming family by making him Henry's step dad, via Regina.  It would have been amusing to see Bae and Regina falling in love, when Rumple was still her enemy, and Bae hated magic, and evil people in general. Neal could have been whatever character they wanted, and when they decided they were tired of him, they could kill him without so much drama.

 

I didn't hate Neal, but he was a LOT more sympathetic in his relationship with Rumple than with Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

We have two extremes here -- there's Emma, who is still hung up on Neal after more than a decade apart, in spite of him betraying her back then and being a jerk to her now. And then there's Neal, who doesn't even take a moment to reel after finding out his fiancee was playing him and never even reacts to her death before he immediately starts going after Emma. Presumably, he loved her enough to want to marry her, but he doesn't even mourn the relationship that he thought he had with her. Even if he's seriously pissed at Tamara, wouldn't he feel bad for a moment that the life he'd been planning to have has fallen apart? He's even worse than Robin in the "welp, there went that relationship, time to move on" game.

 

When he was trying to get to Neverland, it seemed like he was mostly focused on getting to Henry. He only really started to show interest in Emma after he heard her "I wish you were dead" confession and learned that Hook was interested in her. It makes it sound like he couldn't be bothered when he thought she might be into him still -- like he could keep her on a string while he was with Tamara -- but he wanted to pursue her when he was afraid she wasn't interested and when he realized he had competition. And you've got to wonder about a guy whose response to "I wish you were dead so I could move on" was, "So, wanna get together?"

[Camera One]

You've gotta wonder how the writing for a character could be that all over the place.

[Shanna Marie]

Relationships are one area where this show doesn't work as well in marathon viewing because what we actually see on the screen doesn't necessarily match what they tell us, and if you remember what happened clearly (because of having just watched it), what they tell us doesn't really work. For instance, the reaction to Neal's death. That has the whole town reeling and grieving. There's a huge crowd graveside at his funeral, then a big crowd at the post-funeral wake at Granny's. Everyone's acting like they're grieving deeply, that they've lost someone who matters a lot to them.

 

But at that time, they didn't remember the missing year. Neal was in town for only a few days before getting sent through the portal, and he didn't really interact with anyone other than Emma and Henry. Belle was still Lacey when he went through the portal. She didn't meet him as herself until he returned from Neverland, and then there was one day before the curse was reversed and everyone was sent back. And yet she's sobbing her heart out and all heartbroken. Yeah, she's probably sad that Rumple has lost his son, but considering she's not even around Rumple to be empathetic, it just seems weird that she's that grief-stricken about a guy she might have spent a few hours with, at most. I can't think of any interaction Neal had with Snow and David. They didn't really interact with him in Storybrooke, and then when they ran into him in Neverland, he was always off with Emma and/or Hook. Maybe they chatted during the voyage back? #ItHappenedOffscreen. And yet there's Snow, looking crushed at the funeral, and David doing the manly "I will not cry" face. The only people in town who actually knew Neal, aside from Rumple, were Hook, who probably knew him best and was closest to him; Emma, who spent a few months with him more than ten years ago; Tink, who seemed to have known him in Neverland; and then any of the rescued Lost Boys who knew him in Neverland. Henry at that time was mourning the idea of him, the father he never met. The funeral scene actually gets kind of weirdly funny if you've just watched the Neverland arc, so you know that all these people standing by the grave and looking like their hearts are breaking didn't even know the guy. Then at the wake afterward, the two people who really knew him are off to the side, being ignored by everyone else. At least Hook was trying to comfort Emma, but she didn't even seem to notice the fact that he had tears in his eyes and mentioned when offering to talk to Henry that he needed to talk about Neal. But everyone else seemed to be wallowing in their own grief for a guy they hadn't even met.

[kili]

Then at the wake afterward, the two people who really knew him are off to the side, being ignored by everyone else. At least Hook was trying to comfort Emma, but she didn't even seem to notice the fact that he had tears in his eyes and mentioned when offering to talk to Henry that he needed to talk about Neal. But everyone else seemed to be wallowing in their own grief for a guy they hadn't even met.

 

I kind of assumed it was like those funerals on TV where somebody dies in a newsworthy way and suddenly, 1000 people show up at the funeral with many people claiming to be their best friend. 

 

I think some people internalize deaths and this is a case where Neal's death came to mean different things to many people. The last thing these people knew, they were being threatened with lives as Pan's puppets and had to flea to another realm via a curse to escape it. Suddenly, they are back not knowing what has happened in the last year and people are mysteriously disappearing. Finally, one of them who seemed perfectly healthy, dies due to something that happened during the missing year. It could be any one of them or anybody they know or care about. If they don't die, they could become a flying monkey. Neal's death could have been a symbol to all of them -  a funeral for those other friends who were missing and could be dead, a wake for those who are now monkeys and may never return to their original form and a nod to the fact that they may soon meet the same fates themselves.

 

Or they all just wanted attention (I kind of side-eye the number of best friends kids who commit suicide due to bullying seem to have after their deaths...).

[Shanna Marie]

Or they all just wanted attention

Or the writers wanted to wring every last ounce of emotion out of the situation and make the audience feel sad, because how often do you get a chance to kill off a title credits character, and milk it for all it was worth by showing the extreme depths of grief, but they kind of forgot that most of these characters had never met Neal, and all the main characters, aside from Emma, Hook, and Rumple, had only spent a few hours with him, ever.

 

It's like David's big speech upon naming the baby, talking about how they all loved Neal, when they barely knew him. I don't think there was ever even a non-group scene between David and Neal, and I'm not sure I can recall them even speaking directly to each other.

[Amerilla]

I would agree that some of it was just mugging for the story, which needed to send a series regular off with some degree of emotion.

 

Within that, though, it's not that hard to come up plausibilities. Emma, Henry and Hook are self-explanatory, as was noted. Because of the Missing Year gap, Belle had just lost Rumpel, and she knew what Neal meant to him, so it could be seen as continuous mourning. Snow and David may not have spent much time with him, but most of what they had seen was in a positive light - they knew he was important to Emma and that he was Henry's father (and had embraced that wholeheartedly), they seen that he joined the fight against Cora, they saw how he helped in Neverland, they were standing there getting all misty-eyed as a family when he and Rumpel reconciled. Just the fact that he had demanded Rumpel promise to give David the cure for his conveniently curable incurable poisoning (for free!) had to win him at least couple of teardrops. You could argue that he was someone who people would have liked, who was on the path of being a part of the rapidly expanding family....ergo they were mourning the person they were never going to get to know better.

[Mari]

You could argue that he was someone who people would have liked, who was on the path of being a part of the rapidly expanding family....ergo they were mourning the person they were never going to get to know better.

That's a kind way of looking at it.  Going with that interpretation . . . 

 

Many people tend to grieve "what could have been" harder than "what actually was."  It's easier to deal with the grief of losing a parent, for example, if your relationship was good than if there was trouble or coldness between you.  With one, you grieve the parent.  With the other, you grieve the parent and the relationship that you will never, ever be able to experience, now.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

I can see Snow, Charming, etc. grieving for Neal because they're the kind of soft-hearted people who would cry when they hear of misfortunes encountered by others.  Yet the writers also wrote all these characters acting like they couldn't care less when Blue "died" with nary a raised eyebrow when they found out she was alive again.  Or they write Charming and Emma shooting-to-kill with Flying Monkeys who could be their friends.  The problem is for the most part, the writers pay zero care to actual human feelings and emotions between people who are friends.  

Edited September 19, 2015 by Camera One

[Free]

The problem is for the most part, the writers pay zero care to actual human feelings and emotions between people who are friends.

 

And sadly they tend to gloss it over so the show can move on to the next plot point when it would've been far more interesting.

[mjgchick]

Seriously could you imagine how good seeing Regina and Snow go from enemies to actual friends instead of this insta bullshit they've created because they want her to be a hero so fast. How do they not see how much this is ruining their writing? Their is so much these actors can do even with all the chemistry they all have. If the writing sucks everything will suck.

[Free]

Seriously could you imagine how good seeing Regina and Snow go from enemies to actual friends instead of this insta bullshit they've created because they want her to be a hero so fast.

 

That would've been interesting instead of sidelining Snow's character entirely nowadays.

[Shanna Marie]

You could argue that he was someone who people would have liked, who was on the path of being a part of the rapidly expanding family....ergo they were mourning the person they were never going to get to know better.

I can see that, to some extent. I sing at a lot of funerals, and I almost never actually knew the deceased. At most, I might have known one of their family members (I'm in the choir at the big church in town that's willing to host funeral services even for non-members, anyone in the community who wants a service there, and I have flexible daytime hours -- it's not like this is a weird hobby). And yet I always end up crying, in part because I'm generally pretty empathetic, and if I see someone else cry, I'll start crying, and in part because when they talk about the deceased at funerals, I find myself feeling a loss for not having known the person. But the dynamic/vibe of that is very different from what they showed with this funeral. For one thing, most of those people didn't know Neal enough to have attended his funeral other than to provide support to the people who did know them, and yet they didn't do anything that even looked like providing support. They acted like they were actually mourning in their own right, and were so caught up in that mourning that they were ignoring the people who really were mourning. That's why it came across more like the writers making a big funeral scene than like what really would have happened.

 

Seriously could you imagine how good seeing Regina and Snow go from enemies to actual friends instead of this insta bullshit they've created because they want her to be a hero so fast.

That and Regina's insta friendship with Emma are more instances of the timeline not working. Snow and Emma came back from the Enchanted Forest after the curse (and right after Regina had framed Snow for murder and then tried to murder Emma and nearly killed Henry in the process) and had just barely long enough for the lasagna incident with Emma inviting Regina to the party before Cora showed up and Regina flipped sides again. Then Regina was the enemy, working with Cora, then destroyed the magic beans and got out the failsafe. She somewhat redeemed herself from that by working to stop the failsafe, but it wasn't as though there was a lot of bonding going on. Then they spent less than a week in Neverland (there was at one point barely before they left a captain mentioning five days), and for part of that time Regina struck out on her own. There wasn't a lot of bonding there. Most of the time they were snarking at each other and at odds. Then the next day after they got back, the curse was reversed. I can imagine that Snow and Regina might have mended a lot of fences and developed some kind of rapport during the Missing Year, but we didn't get to see it other than the usual Regina snark and acting like she was the only one who ever experienced pain. But at least we know they spent the better part of a year working toward the same goal. Then Emma was back in town for maybe a week with the Zelena stuff before 4A began. So Regina and Emma had spent maybe two weeks together without Regina trying to kill Emma before all that "it's my job to get you a happy ending, I want to be your friend" stuff. They barely had time to start being civil to each other.

[Amerilla]

But the dynamic/vibe of that is very different from what they showed with this funeral. For one thing, most of those people didn't know Neal enough to have attended his funeral other than to provide support to the people who did know them, and yet they didn't do anything that even looked like providing support. They acted like they were actually mourning in their own right, and were so caught up in that mourning that they were ignoring the people who really were mourning. That's why it came across more like the writers making a big funeral scene than like what really would have happened.

 

As much as it's kind of a throw-away scene in many ways, it's got the kernel of some interesting themes. It's hard to frame it as the behavior of real people in a real situation, but since they aren't real people in a real situation, I feel like there's plenty of room for symbolism.

 

- As a study in the contrast of good and evil. Not for nothing does the graveside scene cut away to Zelena shoving a devastated Rumpel back in his cage. It's an easy way to juxtapose her inhumanity with their humanity, their togetherness with her isolation. 

 

- As I said initially, it could seen as a manifestation of the family/relationship they could have had.

 

- As a reflection of other losses. Most of the familiar faces at the funeral were people who had lost loved ones and never had the chance to properly mourn them, or had mourned alone without family or friends to prop them up in their grief. There's also just the release of being able to show tears or fears or hurt or pain in the stressful situation they were all under at that moment.

 

- As a in-story nod to the importance of Neal to their lives, whether they know it or not. For better or worse, they are are there because hundreds of years before, this young boy wanted to save his father's soul. If that hadn't gone tits-up, Rumpel wouldn't have manipulated events to bring them to this world, and Charming is still a sheep farmer, Snow is executed by Regina, Emma and Henry are never born...choose your own set of what-ifs. In the simplest sense, Our Heroes' stories begin the moment Bae falls through the portal.

 

Finally, I think the scene is as much about the two faces we don't see as the ones we do. It's still a tragedy of Rumpel and Baelfire. This was a father and son who loved each other deeply, despite time and separation and Neal's understandable anger at Rumpel's betrayal. And the Neal never stopped being that person and idea that Rumpel clung too, firing that tiny speck of humanity that managed to fend off total darkeness for centuries.

 

Neal wanted nothing more than love and family, but had it stripped away again and again - but it didn't turn him bitter or hopeless. In fact, it was such a strong need that he let that desire to get back to Henry and Emma and try to be that family override the survival instincts that had kept him alive over centuries. In his very final moments, he gets the comfort of dying in the arms of the two people he'd loved the most in his life, and he's laid to rest by caring people, but dead is dead.  Rumpel moved the heavens to find him, reconciled with him ever so briefly, watches him die, and in the end is denied the simple opportunity to stand with other mourners or receive comfort from the woman who loves him. Maybe it's deserved punishment for all the terrrible things he did in the name of his own desires - hell, depending how you frame Neal's betrayal of Emma, maybe Neal got what he deserved too - but that doesn't mean is isn't sad.

 

ETA: You could also look at it as a manifestation of the show's screwy approach to time + proximity = relationship. For example, there's no reason Emma should be wearing Graham's shoelace as a bracelet years after he died - she knew him a couple weeks, they barely had a relationship. As much as people complain about Regina's seemingly overblown reaction to losing her "boyfriend of a week," Emma and Hook's romantic relationship was at best  embryonic at the end of 3A/start of 3B and people spent a lot of the hiatus fanning themselves because Hook's (apparent) dedication to finding Emma was The Most Romantic Thing Ever. To an extent, the reaction to Neal's death is based in the show's internal logic of "I barely knew him, but that doesn't mean I don't deeply love him."

Edited September 21, 2015 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

Moving a discussion over from the All Seasons thread:
 

A scene where Killian struggles to do something with his hook around Emma and he feels embarrassed by it. Without the context of that #ItHappenedOffscreen scene, the onscreen part where he goes and asks Rumple for his hand back comes out of the blue because we've always been shown a Hook who's very confident with his appendage. I can't think of many times where we've seen him self-conscious about it before, so this new change in attitude should have been explored because it introduced us to a new fear for his character.

That really should have been something that built over multiple episodes rather than it being like someone flipped a switch and he suddenly wanted something he'd never shown signs of wanting before. Maybe that could have played into his insecurities when she was still keeping him at a distance. She's certainly made enough remarks about him only having one hand. Might he have wondered if that had something to do with her reluctance to get closer? Or he can't take off his jacket to put it around her very easily with the hook. Or he can't hold a coffee and hold her hand at the same time. Or he accidentally pokes her with the hook when he hugs her and he worries he'll hurt her. Not just "maybe I should spiff myself up before my big date, so I guess I'll get my hand back."

 

A scene where Hook is researching how to properly court in the modern world. This is where he reads up on the terminology of dating (like calling it 'dating' and not 'courting')

Him using the word "date" pre-dates the date episode, though. He was casually tossing the term around when they were at the ice wall and he referred to that as being their second date, mentioning they should have champagne chilled to mark the occasion. That's the reference that really took me out of the story because it seemed so out of character for Hook. Not only was it odd that he'd use that term, but you'd think that fighting a snow monster and confronting a giant ice wall would be his idea of a good time, as long as he's with the person he loves and fighting side-by-side with her. While he is a romantic at heart, I don't see him being so big on conventional romance, whatever the world or era, and especially with him coming from a world where restaurant dates with chilled champagne wouldn't be the norm. I'd imagine that his idea of a romantic evening with Milah would have involved raiding a pleasure yacht or castle and then bringing the champagne and chocolate back to their cabin on the Jolly Roger.  Maybe crashing a royal ball in disguise and then lifting jewels and silver. I could see him making a stab at giving Emma the kind of night out he thought she'd expect, based on what he saw of her evening out with Walsh, but I can't imagine him whining to her about not having gone out to dinner together yet because they've been too busy fighting monsters together.

 

Hilarity ensues when Hook asks all of the dwarves for dating advice and they all give totally different answers.

I feel robbed that we didn't see this. Really, any scene of him asking anyone for advice would have been nice because it would have broadened his interactions with other characters. He did get a look at what Walsh planned, so that might have helped. I could imagine him confidently telling her that he'll plan the evening and then panicking when he didn't know for sure what to do. He wouldn't have that many options other than the dwarfs for advice, considering that I doubt he'd go to David for advice on dating his daughter and Henry's too young. I suppose an alternative to the dwarfs might have been him being surrounded by women at Granny's -- Belle, Granny, Ruby (if she existed then), maybe for fun throw in Aurora, who has no clue about dating, either. And they're all giving him conflicting advice about what they'd want him to do if they were in Emma's shoes.

 

A scene where Emma awkwardly explains to Elsa and Snow what she expected this date to be like, and we actually could have heard some of Emma's point of view on why she asked Hook out in the first place. Continuity shout out to Hook trading his ship to her and how she actually feels about that. Snow could have talked about what courting rituals were like in the Enchanted Forest and Emma could sigh in relief that she dodged that bullet.

I feel robbed for missing this, too. We don't even know if Snow knows he traded his ship. And Emma's reactions to the fairy tale queens (darn it, Snow is rightfully a queen) describing how courting goes in their world would have been fun -- stuff like ambassadors bringing foreign princes to meet at royal balls, if that goes well a walk through the gardens, maybe a picnic. And then Snow could have mentioned that she and David didn't court that way. They "dated" by rescuing each other from dungeons and curses. Which makes a nice dinner sound pretty good.

 

And it's a shame that the date itself seemed to be only an excuse to set Will and Hook at odds and make Hook paranoid about the evil hand. It wasn't really about their date.

[Free]

Because actually, that scene in 306 was the last time Emma seemed to have an actual emotional reaction to Neal's existence or give a shit, except when he died.

 

Shame, Emma is never allowed to properly deal with these issues (her parents, Neal, August, Regina, etc), she's just pushed along to the next plot point.

[Shanna Marie]

For example, there's no reason Emma should be wearing Graham's shoelace as a bracelet years after he died - she knew him a couple weeks, they barely had a relationship.

I think it was a bit longer than a couple of weeks, since season one took place in more or less real time (it was Valentine's Day around Valentine's Day, for instance) and weeks might pass between episodes, so it was maybe a month or more. Yes, even with that it would be overwrought for Emma to still be mourning Graham like her life was totally ruined by his death, but that's not what happened. We wouldn't even know that Emma's bracelet is Graham's shoelace if Jennifer Morrison hadn't said something about it in interviews. Emma hasn't said a word, so we don't know exactly why she's still wearing it. It could be that she's mourning lost possibilities. She might be wearing it since she took over his job and wants to honor that. She might have related to the fact that he didn't seem to have any friends or family and it seems like he's been forgotten, something she might have feared about herself at that time, so she makes it a point of remembering him so that he hasn't been forgotten. She may even have just decided she likes the bracelet and wearing it no longer has anything to do with the reason she started wearing it. I don't get any sense that if Emma learned what really happened to Graham she'd scream at Regina about ruining her life. She would be angry on Graham's behalf and angry about Regina having had the nerve to complain to her about Emma causing Robin to break up with her when she'd done something like that to Emma. It wouldn't be about losing the love of her life (that she barely knew). (But then I still have the number of a friend who died ten years ago after I'd only known her a couple of years and only saw her in person a few times in my cell phone contacts, two phones later, because I can't bear to delete it, so I guess I can relate to what Emma's doing here.)

 

As much as people complain about Regina's seemingly overblown reaction to losing her "boyfriend of a week," Emma and Hook's romantic relationship was at best  embryonic at the end of 3A/start of 3B and people spent a lot of the hiatus fanning themselves because Hook's (apparent) dedication to finding Emma was The Most Romantic Thing Ever.

I don't really see how that tracks. Yes, some fans may have been overexcited, but I think the show did depict Hook and Emma's romantic relationship as embryonic. He had a serious crush that he clung to during the missing year that seemed to be more about the idea of her and the influence she had on him. With him, it was absence makes the heart grow fonder, while with her it was out of sight, out of mind, so they were very out of sync when they were reunited and she got her memories back. He had to dial it way back because she wasn't in the same place he was. Their relationship didn't really become romantic until the end of 3B. He made the gooey eyes at her and confessed his love for her to Zariel, but they weren't acting romantic before that. And even in 4A, they were very much like a new dating relationship. It didn't start to look like a solid, established relationship where his loss really upset her until 4B, when they'd been together a couple of months. Hook's dedication to reaching Emma only says anything about where he was when he'd had a lot of time to think about her and to dwell on what he'd like to have with her. I don't think it was meant to show that this relationship already existed at that time.

[Scovies]

I don't really see how that tracks. Yes, some fans may have been overexcited, but I think the show did depict Hook and Emma's romantic relationship as embryonic. He had a serious crush that he clung to during the missing year that seemed to be more about the idea of her and the influence she had on him. With him, it was absence makes the heart grow fonder, while with her it was out of sight, out of mind, so they were very out of sync when they were reunited and she got her memories back. He had to dial it way back because she wasn't in the same place he was. Their relationship didn't really become romantic until the end of 3B. He made the gooey eyes at her and confessed his love for her to Zariel, but they weren't acting romantic before that. And even in 4A, they were very much like a new dating relationship. It didn't start to look like a solid, established relationship where his loss really upset her until 4B, when they'd been together a couple of months. Hook's dedication to reaching Emma only says anything about where he was when he'd had a lot of time to think about her and to dwell on what he'd like to have with her. I don't think it was meant to show that this relationship already existed at that time.

 

This is a good point, and something I wish the show would address (and who knows, they might! I doubt it, but it's possible). Hook had an entire year to think about his feelings for Emma, while from her perspective, she'd only known him for several weeks. They had some time to catch up during the six weeks between 4A and 4B, but what really put them on equal footing, feelings-wise, was the Author's AU. She had (from her POV) years locked up in that tower to think about how she felt about Hook, and we saw that in her tearful confession to Regina. At the end of the S4 finale, they were both finally on a level playing field, emotionally.

 

A confession of love from Emma would honestly have been really premature and out-of-character for her if she hadn't had that time locked up in the tower. Killian was great at breaking down her walls, but without the Author's AU, she only would have known him for a few months, and a lot of that time was spent with them as adversaries or her dealing with Henry being kidnapped by Pan.

 

Granted, I don't think the writers have even looked at it this way -- everything is plot, plot, plot with them. But Emma's emotional development regarding her relationship with Hook makes total sense when you look at their respective timelines.

[Shanna Marie]

but what really put them on equal footing, feelings-wise, was the Author's AU. She had (from her POV) years locked up in that tower to think about how she felt about Hook, and we saw that in her tearful confession to Regina.

Wow, I hadn't even thought about that! But it does make sense.

 

Alas, I doubt they remember that these people now have an extra couple of years worth of memories.

[FierceAfroChick]

I don't remember seeing this discussed here and don't remember if it happened on the show; has Regina ever apologized to the Charmings or Emma for what she did to them?

Edited September 24, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Curio]

I don't remember seeing this discussed here and don't remember if it happened on the show; has Regina ever apologized to the Charmings or Emma for what she did to them?

It depends on your definition of "apologize." If your definition includes the person saying the words "apologize" or "sorry" ...then no.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Curio

[FierceAfroChick]

It depends on your definition of "apologize." If your definition includes the person saying the words "apologize" or "sorry" ...then no.

 

Yeah, see this is why I have a hard time buying and dealing with Regina's "friendship" with Emma.  It's not as if they were high school classmates who stole each others boyfriends and spread mean gossip about the other.  Regina's crimes involved attempted murder.  I mean, how could you brush aside the fact that this person tried to kill you and yours and murdered her own father?  And she didn't have the excuse of having her heart filled with darkness.  Seriously, this shit is ridiculous.

 

If they were still at odds, I think I would probably like Regina more. 

[Shanna Marie]

Not only has Regina not apologized, she's never shown any indication, even in private, that she feels that she was actually wrong to do anything that she's done to Emma or Snow, and she's never even said she's through trying to destroy them. They're trying to be friends with someone who was willing to murder her own father in order to destroy Snow and who has yet to say that she's changed her mind about needing to destroy Snow. Yeah, she hasn't tried for a while, but really, who hangs out with someone who vowed to kill her and who hasn't yet said anything about changing that vow? I'd want that in writing, possibly in blood, and sworn on a stack of Bibles in front of the pope before I'd even go near that person.

 

And not only has Regina not apologized for trying to kill Snow, she's let Snow apologize repeatedly for her original wrong and for killing Cora, and Regina lets her grovel about killing Cora without ever saying anything about her own role in murdering Snow's father.

[Camera One]

This was the extent of her apology to Snow, at least.

 

Mary Margaret: I want to apologize, Regina. For Cora, for...

Regina: Murdering her?

Mary Margaret: Right. Yeah. I don't take it lightly. I think about it every day.

Regina: So do I. And when I do think about it, I remember... That she did kill your mother. So I'll admit that it's complicated.

Mary Margaret: Thank you.

 

Her "apology" was within Snow's straight-up apology.

 

I vaguely remember Regina making another half-apology in the vein of, "Maybe if..., I might not have tried to kill you", but I don't remember what episode that was.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

But of course we'll never get this conversation:

 

Regina: I want to apologize, Snow. For Leopold, for...
Snow: Murdering him?
Regina: Right. Yeah.

[Mathius]

I vaguely remember Regina making another half-apology in the vein of, "Maybe if..., I might not have tried to kill you", but I don't remember what episode that was.

It was the exact same one, "Bleeding Through". It was Regina saying that if she had know about the feud between Cora and Eva, she wouldn't have tried to kill Snow since she wouldn't have wanted to perpetuate her mother's personal war. Snow's response was the infamous "We would have found a reason to fight anyway...I mean, I was such a brat!"

[october]

This was the extent of her apology to Snow, at least.

 

Mary Margaret: I want to apologize, Regina. For Cora, for...

Regina: Murdering her?

Mary Margaret: Right. Yeah. I don't take it lightly. I think about it every day.

Regina: So do I. And when I do think about it, I remember... That she did kill your mother. So I'll admit that it's complicated.

 

This exchange is so amazing. So many layers of WTF, I could mine it for days. I also love their conversation in 4x08 where she talks about how unfair it is that heroes like Snow have their wishes granted while hers are always crushed (did it ever occur to her that since her wishes usually involved killing people that it's more likely she'd encounter resistance?)

 

One of the things I wish they'd done with the Cora storyline, instead of having Snow feel guilt about Cora's death, is having her feel remorse over making Regina the instrument of Cora's demise. I don't think killing Cora was a dark act, but manipulating her daughter into doing the deed under the guise of wanting to help- that is what gave me chills about Snow's actions in that episode. It was as if Regina's ability to manipulate and exploit people had rubbed off on her just a little bit. She had good reason to do it that way; it's unlikely she would've gotten close enough to Cora to put the heart back herself.

 

But having Snow use Regina's love for her mother (and her longing for her mother's love in return) as a weapon should've been great character fodder for Snow and her relationship with Regina. That's what interested me, not the nonsensical 'heroes don't kill' bullshit. Instead we got Snow moping and being all: 'oh noes! I killed the homicidal despot who was planning to destroy my family and an entire town of people. What kind of monster have I become??? I will lie on the ground until you can forgive me Regina!!'

Edited September 25, 2015 by october

[Souris]

God, ITA with y'all about the offensive ridiculousness of Regina never apologizing and her victims prostrating themselves to apologize to her. This show is so victim-blamey. It's gross.

 

In more pleasant relationship topics, a REALLY lovely read about CaptainSwan.

[kili]

She is the woman who shoots you and then complains that you should have known she was going to shoot and should have moved.

And she also says that you ruined her life because you selfishly got blood on her white carpet. Why can't she have nice things like the "heroes"?

[Scovies]

I've gotta say, Emma giving Regina the dagger cracked me up. "You're the only person who doesn't care about me enough to feel bad about killing me." BWAH!

[Mari]

But, Scovies, that was a deeply emotional scene that demonstrated the true depth of caring between Regina and Emma. Whatever do you mean? :)

[HoodlumSheep]

^ honestly, I didn't find that scene emotional at all. Something didn't click for me I guess (and I'm happy it didn't). The scene lasted 2-3 seconds. I was expecting something more...ship bait-y. Emma was just like, "here you go."

Regina, "me?"

Emma, "yup"

And it was over. I'm confused at how some of the journalists were raving about the scene.

Captain Swan was adorable.

Liked the Hook/Regina banter.

That bit with Grumpy and Snow/the gang was nice. It reminded me of the sweet relationship grumpy and Snow used to have in season 1 and in earlier flashbacks. More please!

Edited September 28, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

The Emma/Regina dagger seemed to be practical more than anything else. I didn't find it emotional or... *gasp* romantic as some might think.

[mjgchick]

Yeah I think they played that scene in a very harsh tone. Emma specifically said "You're the only one I know who'd have it in them to do it." I don't get this friendship at all.

Mean while more Captain Swan hand holding ans swinging it like 5 yr olds in a playground.

[HoodlumSheep]

"Harsh" is a good word to describe it! Nice one, mjgchick! It pretty much lacked all emotional resonance that was implied by the promo department and reviewer/journalists.

[maryle]

I completely agree with you all. I was afraid of this scene because of all the hype. But, it just fell flat for me and I do not think its because of some CS google. The huge emotionnal connection was just not there.

I did saw the connection between Regina and Snow and the connection between Emma and Hook in little glance, so you do not need some grandiose discourse if the emotion is genuine there bettwem the character. and maybe the actor too?

[Mari]

If this seems repetitive, I'm sorry, but its sort of nagging at me, and it probably fits better here, anyway.

 

In the Dark Swan Rises special, A or E made a comment about Emma and Hook's relationship finally being beyond him seeing her as a conquest.  It sort of spun me, because that's not at all how I had seen their relationship.

 

Hook just didn't strike me as a "conquest" kind of guy, especially when it came to Emma, at any point in the current part of the story.  He flirted with anyone and everyone, but most of the time he didn't seem to expect much beyond that.    Even in season 2, when he was the most piratey, and the most likely to see her as someone to bed and leave, that didn't seem to be what he was interested in.  He was interested in what she could do for him, at first, then as someone who understood him, and finally, during season 3, he was in love.  None of those are the classic conquest scenario, are they?

 

Is there evidence to the contrary?  Hook tends to be a character I enjoy, and there are definitely episodes I haven't watched since they aired, so I could be giving him more credit than he deserves.

 

Then, it occurred to me that they meant Emma saw him as someone who would screw and scuttle.  But, I don't know how much that tracks for me, either.

 

Emma eyerolled at him all of season 2, when he was most likely to see her as a temporary fling.  By the time the season 3 relationship stuff happened, he was already proclaiming his love--and she knew enough of his history by then, that she knew love was something he took seriously.  

 

I always had the impression during season 3 that Emma was pushing him away, not because she was afraid he would sleep with her and leave, but because she knew he was emotionally involved, and the thought of being emotionally involved back scared her.  (I was going to say "scared the pants off her," but realized it sort of was the opposite.)

 

Is there evidence I'm ignoring that Emma saw the relationship the way A & E seemed to?

[YaddaYadda]

Then, it occurred to me that they meant Emma saw him as someone who would screw and scuttle.  But, I don't know how much that tracks for me, either.

 

Remember 4x02 at the ice wall? Now that you mention the whole screw and scuttle, David was all warning about how Emma wasn't some conquest and he knew his reputation.

 

I'm having a hard time with David knowing anything about Hook's reputation because the guy was in Neverland for a billion year and came back like what? A year and a half, two years before the curse and before Snow Fall happened. Unless David was out and about doing the tavern hop, where would he have heard anything about Hook? They didn't exactly move in the same circles.

[Rumsy4]

Eddy's perspectives on the show always seems so bizarre to me. Maybe he was talking about other people's perception of Hook (Snow, Charming, etc.).

[Mari]

Remember 4x02 at the ice wall? Now that you mention the whole screw and scuttle, David was all warning about how Emma wasn't some conquest and he knew his reputation.

 

I'm having a hard time with David knowing anything about Hook's reputation because the guy was in Neverland for a billion year and came back like what? A year and a half, two years before the curse and before Snow Fall happened. Unless David was out and about doing the tavern hop, where would he have heard anything about Hook? They didn't exactly move in the same circles.

Could some of that be Snow's reaction, shared with David, to Hook's behavior when they met him in the Enchanted Forest?  During that period, Hook was very heavy-handed with the flirting and innuendo.  Personally, I always thought it was a combination of honestly finding Emma sexually attractive, mixed with a pretty serious tendency to use his appearance and behavior to manage his relationships with much more powerful women.  (For example, Cora or Regina.)

 

But, I could understand Snow seeing it less as a defense mechanism, particularly when directed towards Emma, and passing that idea on to David.

 

However, did Hook or Emma ever see their relationship that way?

[YaddaYadda]

However, did Hook or Emma ever see their relationship that way?

 

I don't think so. I don't think she's ever taken him seriously and I don't think he's ever taken himself seriously either? That stuff stopped after he was hit by the car (but he did say something to Snow while David was standing right there in "Tiny") afterwards the innuendos were done. I can't remember an instance when he went full on smarmy.

[tri4335]

Eddy's perspectives on the show always seems so bizarre to me. Maybe he was talking about other people's perception of Hook (Snow, Charming, etc.).

 

I've come to understand that Eddy (Adam too) has a very sophomoric point of view when it comes to relationships. I swear this is why they can't write a decent one and they always seem shocked by fan reaction. 

 

This is why they don't see the rape of Graham and didn't see it with Robin until fan reaction was so bad over the summer because they would love a women to be the agressor and take them to bed.

 

They don't see the hurt inflicted by Neal because they want to know that no matter how bad they screw over their girlfriend they will be forgiven.

 

Rumple killing Mila is justified because no women should leave her man. And it is okay to put Belle to sleep and lie to her because he is trying to take care of her and again their woman should forgive them.

 

Queerbaiting is okay because really the thought of two women making out is "hot" and they aren't in it to show a "real" LGBT relationship.

 

Hook is their bad boy so of course he would see Emma as conquest and she would look at him as a weekend in Vegas.

 

I think that the great relationship stuff we've been shown on the show is the influence of other writers in the room and to a major extent the actors choices when they do the scene.  And for me it is the actors who keep bringing me back because the writing is not that impressive.

Edited September 28, 2015 by tri4335

[Mari]

Eddy's perspectives on the show always seems so bizarre to me. Maybe he was talking about other people's perception of Hook (Snow, Charming, etc.).

 

 

I think that the great relationship stuff we've been shown on the show is the influence of other writers in the room and to a major extent the actors choices when they do the scene.  And for me it is the actors who keep bringing me back because the writing is not that impressive.

 

True.

 

I can't say I've seen many interviews with the showrunners where their interpretation of the relationship matched what seemed to be happening on the screen.

 

But, this does mean that there were times that's what they intended--what scenes did they think they were portraying "Hook's after a bedpost notch."?  Because while there have been Hook/Emma scenes I've liked, and Hook/Emma scenes I've very much not liked, but I don't remember what Eddy described being something that spent any particular time in my brain when watching the show.

[Curio]

I think everyone is reading too much into what Eddy said. But if he truly believes his "conquest" comment is what we've seen on screen, then maybe he just means Hook's conquest was to get Emma to like him as a person. If that's the case, then sure, I can see where he's coming from.

[Shanna Marie]

I always had the impression during season 3 that Emma was pushing him away, not because she was afraid he would sleep with her and leave, but because she knew he was emotionally involved, and the thought of being emotionally involved back scared her.

Yeah, that was always my read, that he scared her to death because she knew almost from the start that this was a guy who took commitment to the max. He was all-in, and she wasn't ready for that. And I think he was aware of that, and that was a big reason he held off on telling her about the Jolly Roger -- that was a sign of just how committed he was. He had burned all his bridges to his past life in order to be with her, and that would be terrifying to someone who's afraid of commitment.

 

Though perhaps what they meant about conquest wasn't in the sense that David said it, bedding her and then leaving once he got what he wanted, but rather what Hook himself said about "when I win your heart, and I will win it." He's never seen her as some kind of trophy to be won. It's always been about wanting her in his life because of her being the person she is, but while he was all-in from very early, she was wary of him, and it took an ongoing campaign for him to prove himself to her and win her over. I wouldn't consider that a negative, since he played fair, and he wasn't being sleazy about it. His way of winning her over was doing stuff like offering his ship to take her to Neverland to find her son, saving her father's life, giving up everything he owned to reach her so he could return her to her family, following her through a time portal so she wouldn't be alone, etc.

 

However, I only saw the last five minutes of the special, so I may be totally wrong about how they meant it.

[mjgchick]

I use to think Hook was pretty much smitten after they took down Anton. He seemed genuinely hurt when she didn't trust him. Looked like a kicked puppy when she left his ass. He was so petty when he said she was dried up or something like that.

[HoodlumSheep]

I feel like season 2-3x05 was more of the flirty banter/general attraction/"crush" stage for Killian. But then whammo! He started falling in love after that point.