Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Rumsy4]

But not only did she know Robin's name after being brought back. Which she could have known by happenstance, she also identified Roland immediately, so she'd have to have some clue as to who Marian was. Unless you know they just completely pulled the idea oUT of thin air.

 

Apparently according Adam (on twitter), Zelena downloaded Marian's memories as well when she glamored herself. I know... 

[YaddaYadda]

Apparently according Adam (on twitter), Zelena downloaded Marian's memories as well when she glamored herself. I know... 

That's because he forgot the stuff they wrote for 3x17 about Zelean's spies always circling. I mean we still don't even know how flying monkeys can cross realms from OZ/EF into the LwM. They also forgot how Zelena was all over the EF during the missing year. 

 

That whole she glamored herself was such a ridiculous answer, when he could've gone with a more obvious answer that actually makes sense. 

 

Is there anyone on staff keeping track of any of this and of a timeline?

 

You don't have to answer that.

[Camera One]

Apparently according Adam (on twitter), Zelena downloaded Marian's memories as well when she glamored herself. I know... 

 

Responding in Continuity and Unanswered Questions.  

[Curio]

Zelena's goal was not to destroy Regina, rather, her stated goal in I forget which episode was to take over Regina's life, including her boyfriend, so she could watch Regina suffer on a continuing basis as she enjoyed everything she had taken from Regina. It would have been a very stupid mistake to tell Robin how awful Regina was and what bad things she did. Going to someone and badmouthing the person he is madly in love with always backfires. One will not be believed and will in almost all cases be seen as a jealous shit-stirrer.

 

But wouldn't it have been more rewarding for Zelena to rub it into Regina's face that she's living Regina's life in front of Regina every single day in Storybrooke? By forcing Robin to move to New York, Zelena lessened the blow of forcing Regina to watch Marian and Robin live happily ever after. Zelena can't "watch Regina suffer on a continuing basis" if she's not even in the same city as her.

 

This is where the show tries to tell us that Zelena had to move them to New York because Robin would have chosen Regina no matter what in Storybrooke, but that's why I would have liked to have seen Zelena plotting a little more to get Robin to turn on Regina in Storybrooke before she had to turn to Plan NYC. Maybe it would have backfired on Zarian if she told Robin how Regina was awful to her a day ago, but this wasn't just petty girl drama, this was Regina murdering Marian—the mother of his son. That should have at least caused some drama and tension between Robin and Regina. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, but if Robin has any kind of decency, he shouldn't poo-poo Marian's stories about Regina parading her around with a bag on her head and how she planned on executing her, and that should have been enough for Robin to break up with Regina. Not the fact that he has to be "loyal" and feels "obligated" to stay with Marian.

[YaddaYadda]

Robin slept with Regina while his wife was a popsicle. What he do with "Marian" walking around, healthy and all, plus Robin told Regina that he chose her right before Marian started turning into a popsicle again.

[Mari]

Plus, Zelena wouldn't have to be outright bashing Regina around Robin. She could "wake up" screaming something vaguely Regina related, and then not tell Robin the details. She could start seeing Archie, and keep a therapy diary that she "accidentally" leaves open where he could find it. She could put on a brave face in front of him, but have a sobbing confessional to one off the Merries when he's likely to hear. She could be cold but civil when anyone else is around, but go absolutely villainous when she and Regina are alone, then start crying when Regina giant rage reflex kicks in and people are close enough to pay attention. She could fill little Roland's head with true and horrible stories about Refina and the evils she's done to children, so that Roland is terrified of her and angry at Robin for spending time with her. She could magically do damage to herself after seeing Regina, and then tell people or let slip that Regina did it.

Even if her plan was "Take Robin and watch Regina suffer," there are hundreds of ways she could have done that without leaving Storybrooke. What's the point of a plan with a part B of "watch Regina suffer" if you're not around to watch? Especially when you are in a completely foreign world where your powers don't work?

And it's not because she actually wanted Robin. She might've wanted the Regina Boyfriend, but that had nothing to do with Robin, and she would likely find him tedious and a burden before long--especially without Regina around to keep him attractive to her.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

Even if her plan was "Take Robin and watch Regina suffer," there are hundreds of ways she could have done that without leaving Storybrooke. What's the point of a plan with a part B of "watch Regina suffer" if you're not around to watch? Especially when you are in a completely foreign world where your powers don't work?

That's why this makes no sense and stinks of retcon. Leaving town with a man you don't particularly want to live in poverty in an unfamiliar world where you have no power and not even being around to see the other person suffer while the other person lives in wealth and comfort but without her boyfriend of maybe two weeks has to be the worst revenge plot ever -- maybe second only to murdering your father so you can cast a curse that makes your enemies live vaguely unsatisfying lives without even knowing that they're suffering.

 

If what Zelena wanted was to take over Regina's life and get all the things she felt Regina got that she didn't get because Cora abandoned her, then leaving town wasn't the way to do it. She'd have worked to undermine Regina within the town -- make everyone doubt her by reminding them of her evil, turn Robin against her, have a recall election to get her out of the mayor's office for good, maybe a lawsuit for pain and suffering and get other people in town who've suffered under Regina to join in so Regina loses her money, be nice to Henry and try to turn him against Regina. The brave and valiant Marian who suffered so horribly under Regina for her loyalty to Snow White could get a lot of traction in that town, and using magic against her would only make Regina look bad and prove Marian's point of what a monster she is. Of course, Marian herself would make a great mayoral candidate, and then she'd need a home that went along with that, and she'd have the family, with Roland as her son and maybe even getting pregnant then just to rub it in. Systematically taking away Regina's boyfriend, family, home and position and being there to watch it makes a lot more sense than letting Regina think she'd won for five seconds and then leaving town with her boyfriend where Regina had no idea how things were going.

[Mari]

Is it bad that I feel like he wasn't far off with the Rumple/Cora soulmate thing? They kind of were in my opinion (and soulmate doesn't always have to mean in a romantic sense in my opinion). They were more soulmate-like than I consider Rumple and Belle.

I guess I don't see why they couldn't both be.

 

From things Belle has said in-cannon, she wouldn't have been interested in original Rumple.  He was a homebody, completely unadventurous, and afraid of much of the world.  That's not someone that would interest I-want-adventure-and-to-be-a-hero Belle.  At the same time, however, she doesn't seem to be in love with the Dark One.    Belle seems to be in love with powerful, but damaged and darkened Rumple.  She seems to want the human, but she wants him to have just enough of an edge to satisfy her need for adventure.  

 

Cora, on the other hand, was probably more in-tune Rumple's Dark One power-hungry side.  They had similar ideas, and similar wants.  They both wanted power, and status, and didn't mind occasionally stomping on other people to get it--in fact, if it was the right person, they'd enjoy the stomping.

 

I guess, since Regina had both Daniel (who Parilla and A&E have indicated was Regina's true love) and Robin Hood--you can have more than one, and each would be someone you'd connect with differently.  Why couldn't Rumple have both Belle the true love, who connects with the man under the Dark One curse, and Cora, who connects with the Dark One cursing the man?

[HoodlumSheep]

I suppose you could have more than one soul mate, but I don't know. I tolerate the Rumbelle relationship but I've never seen them as soulmates. True Love? We've been shown that they're supposed to be I've just never seen them as soulmates though. I guess it probably just comes down to what I consider to be soulmate-ish.

I just don't consider it to be a foot-in-mouth moment for Eddy though (as mentioned in the fandom thread). Is it supposed to be because it made all the Rumbellers angry? A&E say a lot of stupid stuff, but I actually thought Eddy was correct in saying that Rumple and Cora were soulmates.

All this Cora talk makes me miss her. She's still probably my favorite villain. *sighs*

[Mari]

I suppose you could have more than one soul mate, but I don't know. I tolerate the Rumbelle relationship but I've never seen them as soulmates. True Love? We've been shown that they're supposed to be I've just never seen them as soulmates though. I guess it probably just comes down to what I consider to be soulmate-ish.*

Personally, not a huge fan of the Rumple/Belle relationship, either.

My current theory is that Rumple is self-loathing enough to want and need someone who will continually reassure him. He needs a cheerleader, who will let him feel like the powerful one in the relationship. Between Milah and Cora, he probably needs someone he feels will let him be in charge.

Belle is both desperate to be a hero, and from what I've seen, slightly sadistic by proxy. Being with Rumple gives her ego hero credentials--after all, she's in this dangerous situation, making sure the Dark One isn't hurting too many people too badly. She's what stands between him and the rest of the world, protecting them. At the same time, she seems to not overly care if he's damaging people. Even when she kicked him out of town, it seemed to be less about how much damage he was doing to those around him, and more about how she'd been tricked into thinking he'd given up something for her; kicking him out wasn't an act of self-sacrificial protection for the town, it was revenge for destroying her delusions.

I find the relationship creepy and disturbing, but sort of think they deserve each other. There is a kind of true love and soulmate factor in finding someone who matches your damaged spots, I guess.

Edited because desrveach is not actually a word. Though I feel like it should be.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

The relationship is creepy. And no offense to any Belle fans (I have my moments when I like her), as much as Rumple is addicted to power, Belle seems to be addicted to him. I find that a show that prides itself in its kickass women, they should try and do better by Belle when it comes to that relationship.

[Shanna Marie]

Personally, not a huge fan of the Rumple/Belle relationship, either.

Yeah, I've been mulling on that while doing my rewatch, and it seems mostly like they're together because she's Belle and they've made him the "Beast," and Belle and the Beast are supposed to be together because of the story. If you remove all associations with the fairy tale or the Disney movie and just look at them as independent characters, the relationship makes little sense. Her character is defined by a longing for adventure and getting to be a hero. He's a coward who only steps out of his four walls because of the Dark One power. He lost his first wife because he refused to leave the village where he was a pariah, and he had the exact same argument with his son after he became the Dark One. He had nearly infinite power, and he was living in the same hovel in the same village. The only times Belle has had any kind of adventures since getting together with him were when they were split up -- she had her adventure with Mulan after she left him, and then it looks like she got to do stuff during the Missing Year when he was dead/Zelena's captive. When she's with him, he prefers to keep her with him, hiding her even from her family, or knocks her out so she can't protest him essentially locking her up. When he dragged himself out of his comfort zone to go to Neverland, he made her stay at home. It kind of looks like their relationship only really works because they haven't actually spent all that much time together in the time they've been "together." It's hard to imagine how things would go with them if they were ever actually together for more than a few weeks, especially if they were in a place where they could go beyond their immediate surroundings. If the hat cleavage spell had worked and he'd succeeded in taking her away from Storybrooke, how would that have gone? She'd have had a whole new world to explore and he wouldn't have wanted to leave the house.

 

I can see why he'd love her -- she loves him and she manages to magnify the microscopic speck of good in him to the point she can see it and can make him believe it's there. But what does she get out of it?

 

Being with Rumple gives her ego hero credentials--after all, she's in this dangerous situation, making sure the Dark One isn't hurting too many people too badly.

 

I'm afraid that's it, and it doesn't reflect well on her. I would add that she gets to look like a saint for loving someone who's essentially unlovable. She alone is able to see that alleged good heart of his (which reminds me of my brother's first marriage -- he married a raging bitch whose own family could barely tolerate her, mostly because he got off on the fact that he was considered a saint for being able to put up with her and he got so much sympathy for having to put up with her. The marriage lasted less than three years).

 

But then you have to wonder at what she considers a good heart and where she's even getting that idea that she keeps clinging to. Yeah, he let Robin go and gave him the wand to cure Marian, but wouldn't someone who actually had a good heart have offered to help from the start, without the torture? What else has she seen him do that would qualify as proof of a good heart? The only thing I can think of is sacrificing himself to kill Pan, but she was already convinced of his goodness before that. Otherwise, he's killed, tortured, tried to kill, lied to her, deceived her, and resisted doing anything to help in any situation that didn't directly affect him. That looks more like delusion than unconditional love, and when she still weepily declares her love for him after all the 4A and 4B events, she looks like she's got a bad case of battered wife syndrome, where she can't make herself leave the man she insists she loves, no matter how much he hurts her or others. She's not too far from "No, he's really a good man, he's only like this because of the drinking," and never mind that he's always drunk.

[Mari]

From what I've seen, she thinks he's got a good heart because of how he treats her. She has only minor concerns about how he behaves otherwise, it's all about whether or not he's good to her.

[Curio]

it seems mostly like they're together because she's Belle and they've made him the "Beast," and Belle and the Beast are supposed to be together because of the story. If you remove all associations with the fairy tale or the Disney movie and just look at them as independent characters, the relationship makes little sense.

 

This is how I look at it, too. If Belle was just a random girl named Jenny, I doubt there would be such a strong following for the pairing. (Belle might as well be called a different name on this show anyways because she's so unlike her Disney cartoon counterpart.) I think a lot of the passion behind shipping Rumbelle also comes from the Rumple fans who still see him as a big woobie who just needs some love from the always understanding and supportive girlfriend Belle. 

 

But if all Rumple needed was Belle's love, then they should have worked out by now. Blame his evilness on the Dark Curse all you want, but at the end of the day, Rumple will always choose power over Belle. Maybe I'll have to eat crow when we see what Rumple's truly like without the Dark Curse in him during Season 5, but I have a feeling he'll still do something to screw up his relationship with Belle and take her for granted. Belle is better off going to Atlantis and hooking up with fellow nerd Milo. At least he's also booksmart and goes on adventures.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

But if all Rumple needed was Belle's love, then they should have worked out by now.

That's the problem with trying to do this kind of story with an ongoing series and with them not actually wanting to change him. If she can change him with her love, then he has to change, but they want to keep him a villain, so she can't change him with her love, and that means she has to go on indefinitely believing she can change him with her love without seeing any evidence. If anything, he's become more evil since falling in love with her. After falling in love with her, he did the final manipulation to get the curse cast, he was the landlord from hell in Storybrooke, he nearly murdered Belle's father, he tried to murder Regina (which resulted in Snow and Emma being sent through a portal), he nearly beat a couple more people to death with her watching. Since their marriage, he tried to get the whole town killed, tried to destroy all the fairies and Emma, nearly killed Hook, brought three villains to town, tortured Pinocchio, lied to and deceived Belle. That should probably be a pretty good sign that, no, Belle can't change him with her love and she's not bringing out the good in him. If she still believes in his goodness after all that, then she no longer looks like merely a good, optimistic person who has hope and is able to see the best in all people. She just looks deluded.

[DigitalCount]

In fairness, he did sacrifice himself for her/everybody, it just didn't take. This is why Going Home is the real series finale.

I can't really look at any version of Rumbelle as settled unless he has the opportunity to reject power in favor of Belle. Until then, it just feels like waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Shanna Marie]

I think the relationship between Rumple and Belle suffers from that same problem seen elsewhere in the show of just waving their magic wand and pretending that giant, glaring problems don't exist and rushing the conclusion -- and then not being able to make it a conclusion because this is an ongoing series and they don't want to change some of the characters too much. If they'd stuck with Belle's "I can see you have the potential for good, but you're too afraid of going there, call me when you're not evil" stance from the end of "Skin Deep," I think things would have worked a lot better for her character. She might still have ended up with him after season 3 because she saw the sacrifice and then he was doing a good job of pretending to be reformed, but she wouldn't have been standing by him while he kept doing even worse than the things she originally left him for.

 

I can buy her briefly ending up with him early in season 2 because Jefferson directed her to him when he freed her, and coming out of years of imprisonment in a strange world, she'd be drawn to the familiar, but it would have worked better if her leaving him early in that season had stuck for more than five minutes, if she'd had the "oh, still evil, I see, then catch you when you get over it" reaction and had stuck with it until season 3. Or if she'd had that reaction when she first saw with her own eyes him doing something evil in beating Hook almost to death right after she learned that Rumple was the one who killed his wife. That would also have been a good place to show that all her "I can see what's in people's hearts and I can see good in you" stuff wasn't just delusion relating to Rumple. We'd already seen Hook pause in the middle of a fight to rescue and return Aurora's heart, so we'd had hints that he wasn't all bad, and it seems like they were already planning a redemption arc for him, so that confrontation on the Jolly Roger might have been a time for her to look at him in pity and say something like, "You may sound angry and hateful, but I can see you've got a good heart and you're in pain." As it was, when not too long afterward Hook turned himself around and has been trying to be good, while Rumple keeps doing evil, it makes Belle's "Rumple has a good heart, unlike your ugly black one" routine look silly and undermines any truth we might be expected to see in her repeated insistence of Rumple's inner good.

 

Because the big problem there is that although he's talked once or twice about being better, he never carries through, and he seems to have given up even trying. He says the right things to Belle, then goes and does all kinds of evil behind her back (and sometimes even in front of her or to her), which makes her insistence about his good heart look like she's just blinded by love. I may have issues with Regina's attitude and how the show treats her, but I have to admit that she's at least trying to be a better person. She's not running around doing evil while pretending to be good. She's mostly trying to do the right thing (though that does sometimes get skewed by her selfishness). She's not actively trying to hurt people. Rumple may say the right things, but he just keeps on doing evil, and Belle giving him the "Oh, you scamp! Didn't you realize that you didn't have to destroy multiple people to get power and kill everyone in town for me to love you?" speech makes her look like an idiot and kind of evil in her own right since she keeps forgiving the wrongs he does to others.

[FierceAfroChick]

So finally finished watching S4 and not sure if this has been discussed.  I’ve been thinking about Emma’s sacrificing herself to take on the Dark One curse and I’m kind of hoping (although I know it won’t be a popular opinion) that Hook gets to be just a bit angry at his woman.  If anyone deserves a happy ending, it’s this poor Lost Girl and just when she and Hook are finally on the road to Iloveyous and maybe a more physical show of that love (pweese!), she decides to jeopardize her relationship because apparently Regina deserves a happy ending over everyone else. 

 

I know Hook is proud of the woman Emma is, but the fact that she put them on hold yet again for Regina should be this little niggling thing in the back of his mind that makes him want to lash out at Emma for not valuing her own happiness over that of the woman who tried to kill her when she was a baby and kill her parents on a few occasions.  Hook’s been letting Emma take the lead on what happens with their relationship…I would think this latest obstacle (again created by Emma) would finally shred his patience with her.

[Curio]

I’ve been thinking about Emma’s sacrificing herself to take on the Dark One curse and I’m kind of hoping (although I know it won’t be a popular opinion) that Hook gets to be just a bit angry at his woman. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it’s this poor Lost Girl and just when she and Hook are finally on the road to Iloveyous and maybe a more physical show of that love (pweese!), she decides to jeopardize her relationship because apparently Regina deserves a happy ending over everyone else.

 

I think that dagger scene might be one of the most ambiguous and oddly written scenes on the entire show. A lot of viewers have differing opinions on what happened, reporters have to keep asking prodding questions about the meaning of the scene, the executive producers have to go on social media to clarify that the darkness cloud would have killed everyone in town (because that wasn't very clear from The Apprentice's quick explanation), and the show runners even differ from Morrison's opinion about Emma's main motivation in the scene. It's kind of a mess.

 

The way the writers wrote the scene, they kept emphasizing how Emma wanted to take on the darkness because Regina "worked too hard" for her happy ending, but what's actually going on in the scene is that Emma is just saving someone from dying. That's it. Emma's the only person in that entire group who can take on the darkness and not die because of her special Savior/Lightness status, so if she didn't stab the darkness when it was surrounding Regina, Regina would have died and the darkness cloud would have moved onto the next victim and killed them too. Emma would have sacrificed herself for anyone the cloud was surrounding in that moment.

 

But the scene is structured so that it comes off as Emma sacrificing her loving relationships with her parents and Hook in favor of giving Regina a happy ending. So if you interpret the scene that way, then yes, Hook should be a little upset. 

 

I know Hook is proud of the woman Emma is, but the fact that she put them on hold yet again for Regina should be this little niggling thing in the back of his mind that makes him want to lash out at Emma for not valuing her own happiness over that of the woman who tried to kill her when she was a baby and kill her parents on a few occasions.

 

Hook is an extremely patient man, and based on what we've seen on screen (Emma holding back from Hook during the 4A premiere because she felt bad about ruining Regina's romance, Emma holding back from Hook a couple episodes later because she still thinks about Graham's death—which was at the hands of Regina, Emma going off and having shots with Regina immediately after Hook nearly died, Emma joining Operation Dumbass even though her boyfriend was a walking example of changing from villain to hero by yourself, and the 4B finale dagger scene), Emma's weird guilt complex about Regina's happy ending should bother him a little bit. I don't think Hook would be angry at Emma though, he'd be more angry at Regina for not being appreciative enough of what Emma has done over the past season. But the writers 100% don't see it this way so it won't be an issue in Season 5.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

and the show runners even differ from Morrison's opinion about Emma's main motivation in the scene.

 

I think the worst part of this is that they actually wrote the season finale, so it shouldn't even be open to the interpretation. Emma is told the darkness will destroy everything and Regina so happened to be the one being attacked by it. Emma promised in 4x01 she'd get Regina her happy ending and they had to have that line in 4x22 at the worst possible time. 

 

Emma's weird guilt complex about Regina's happy ending should bother him a little bit.

 

Hook doesn't really give much a fig about Regina, but I always sort of wondered why no one came to Emma's defense and that includes Hook. Emma saved someone's life, she was doing the right thing. Hook was against saving Marian's life because it might temper with the timeline which fine, completely understand. But once they brought her to the present, it should have been okay and there should have been a scene with her parents or with Hook where they should have told her that she did the right thing regardless of the consequences to Regina's life. But Emma never got anything from anyone about that except for grief from Regina. I don't expect Robin to thank her because he seems to be controlled more by his libido than his "code" anyway.

 

Emma saves someone's life, she gets yelled at.

 

Emma takes sacrifices herself to the darkness, she's called stupid and probably evil at some point.

 

Emma should stop doing people favors and just GTFO of town. Go lead a quiet and happy life somewhere else, girlfriend.

[FierceAfroChick]

I think that dagger scene might be one of the most ambiguous and oddly written scenes on the entire show. A lot of viewers have differing opinions on what happened, reporters have to keep asking prodding questions about the meaning of the scene, the executive producers have to go on social media to clarify that the darkness cloud would have killed everyone in town (because that wasn't very clear from The Apprentice's quick explanation), and the show runners even differ from Morrison's opinion about Emma's main motivation in the scene. It's kind of a mess.

 

The way the writers wrote the scene, they kept emphasizing how Emma wanted to take on the darkness because Regina "worked too hard" for her happy ending, but what's actually going on in the scene is that Emma is just saving someone from dying. That's it.

 

Okay...so because Regina didn't stab Rumple or the dark goo, she would've been killed instead of becoming the DO...got it.  I still think Emma shouldn't have cared, but that's just me I suppose.  Save Regina's life or give up my boyfriend, my family and possibly my own life...hmm...I choose me and mine.  I guess I'm viewing this through the lens of someone who thinks none of the Charmings should ever forgive Regina for the shit she's done to them. 

Hook is an extremely patient man, and based on what we've seen on screen (Emma holding back from Hook during the 4A premiere because she felt bad about ruining Regina's romance, Emma holding back form Hook a couple episodes later because she still thinks about Graham's death—which was at the hands of Regina, Emma going off and having shots with Regina immediately after Hook nearly died, Emma joining Operation Dumbass even though her boyfriend was a walking example of changing from villain to hero by yourself, and the 4B finale dagger scene), Emma's weird guilt complex about Regina's happy ending should bother him a little bit. I don't think Hook would be angry at Emma though, he'd be more angry at Regina for not being appreciative enough of what Emma has done over the past season. But the writers 100% don't see it this way so it won't be an issue in Season 5.

 

 

Yep, there's plenty of room there for Hook to be angry at Regina, but I feel like he doesn't really get a say in what goes on in his own relationship.  Maybe he feels he's not worthy and therefore lets Emma make all the decisions on how fast or slow things progress and if so, that's kind of unfair.  I know it won't happen, I'd just like to see him angry at her for not thinking of herself (and their relationship) first.  After all she's been through, I think there are times she should be selfish when it comes to her own happiness.  And I absolutely don't think anyone should crap on Emma for doing the right thing (or what's perceived to be the right thing because again...a dead Regina is a good thing IMO) but Hook is human and I think he should totally be thinking, "Okay, she's saved a life, but what about us?"

Edited September 11, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Rumsy4]

Okay, she's saved a life, but what about us?"

I completely agree. That's why the CS relationship still seems imbalanced, despite the progress Emma has made over the last season. Emma holds all the cards in their relationship, and that has partly to do with Hook's low self-esteem, and partly due to those infamous walls of Emma.

I hope Emma realizes that before she wakes up one day and sees that she's been focusing her time and energy on the wrong people because she was too afraid to take a chance and live her own damn life. The Black Swan arc may be the wake up call she needs.

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe he feels he's not worthy and therefore lets Emma make all the decisions on how fast or slow things progress and if so, that's kind of unfair.

I think that's a lot of what's going on with him. He feels so unworthy that he thinks he's fortunate that someone as awesome as Emma is willing to give him the time of day, so he's not yet to the point of complaining that she doesn't give him enough time. So there's a chance that this arc might be good for him in some respects by separating him from Emma enough to give him a chance to do things on his own and realize that maybe he has some worth.

 

Though in this case, I'm not sure that he'd view Emma as making a sacrifice for Regina, but rather sacrificing for them all, which is a very Emma thing to do and part of why he loves her. She may have said the line about Regina having worked too hard, but Hook was there when the Apprentice explained it, and he saw what happened to the Apprentice, so he knew that they were all at risk if Emma hadn't acted. He hated that she did it, but things would have been worse if she hadn't. And then he'll be too focused on saving her to worry about casting blame.

 

I hope Emma realizes that before she wakes up one day and sees that she's been focusing her time and energy on the wrong people because she was too afraid to take a chance and live her own damn life. The Black Swan arc may be the wake up call she needs.

I wouldn't hold my breath because the writers think that she's focused on exactly the right people (person). Regina is the center of the universe. All hail Regina.

[mjgchick]

I think we're forgetting the part where Emma had enough confidence that her parents and Hook would be able to get her out of the situation. Was it risky of course but to her she realizes she has all these people she can trust that would be able to save her from whatever is going to suck her. Last finale she said "The only person who saves me is me." This finale she's looking at her parents and then tells Hook she loves him because in her head she knows they'll be able to get through to her without killing Regina and everyone else in that town. She (at least to me. I don't know what the writers think at this point.) didn't put Regina's happy ending above hers or whatever. I just think she has enough faith that they will all save her.

Or I could be completely wrong but this makes me feel better about the situation. I do hope Hook has a word with her about that. He tells her he's her happy ending, she tells him she loves him then shoves him so he doesn't say it back and then just leaves. That was rude.

[Curio]

Hook doesn't really give much a fig about Regina, but I always sort of wondered why no one came to Emma's defense and that includes Hook. [...] But once they brought her to the present, it should have been okay and there should have been a scene with her parents or with Hook where they should have told her that she did the right thing regardless of the consequences to Regina's life. But Emma never got anything from anyone about that except for grief from Regina.

 

I thought there was a scene of someone telling Emma she shouldn't feel bad about saving an innocent person's life? Or maybe I just imagined it because that was the logical conclusion for that entire stupid plot line.

 

But even in the scene where Emma tells Hook to be patient, you can tell by the tone in Hook's voice that he calls bullshit on Emma feeling bad about saving someone. He's like, "Really? Regina?? WTF that's what you feel bad about? Why? That makes no sense." So I guess Hook kind of told Emma she shouldn't feel bad about it, but it was just communicated nonverbally because a) the writers couldn't actually point out that Emma wasn't in the wrong with Marian because then they couldn't write the masterpiece 4x05 verbal abuse episode, and b) it would ruin their entire Season 4 message, which was: give Regina a happy ending at all costs. The moment someone spoke up and said Emma shouldn't feel bad about saving Marian and that it was probably karma biting Regina in the ass for everything she pulled with trying to separate Snow and Charming and later killing Graham and Emma's chances of being together would have ruined the show's entire concept for Season 4.

[mjgchick]

The only person who I remember saying EMMA shouldn't feel bad about saving Marian was Emma herself.

What I'd like to know is why did no one go off on Regina for ignoring her son you know the one who share claimed was her happy ending? I would've gotten tired of her teenage angst act by the end of the premiere by that door ascending I were Emma.

[regularlyleaded]

From what I remember of 4A (and I'm admittedly fuzzy on the details), I don't recall anyone in show saying Emma was holding back with Hook because she felt bad about saving Marian. Emma was actually the only one that defended herself to Regina when Regina started sniping at Emma at some early point and Emma told Regina that "I think you're just bitter and taking it out on the wrong person." (I thought it would have been better if others have spoken in Emma's defense, but TS;TW;All Hail Regina).

 

I know in interviews during 4A there was talk going about how Emma's reticence to move forward with Hook was in part because she felt bad about Regina's situation, but I don't remember it being actually said on screen as a reason. In show, from what I recall, the reason Emma was freaked out by moving forward with Hook is because she had really strong feelings for him and that in the past all the men in her life that she had strong feelings for had left her or died, and that's why she was hesitant with Hook. She said almost exactly that to Hook himself when he pushed her on it. But after that things have progressed nicely between them. 

 

Honestly, I would have to do a rewatch (and that's not happening any time soon), but I think there may be some conflating of what was said in interviews with what actually said on screen in the show. Again, I could very well be wrong, and those that have rewatched 4A recently could better say.  

 

Though I must say, as for Emma taking shots with Regina at the end of 3A,  I can't help but point out that we never saw how or why Hook and Emma parted after she put his heart back. There was no explanation given as to how/why they parted, and so as far as we in the audience know Hook could have left Emma to have a well deserved lie down and she let him be. The insistence that Emma left Hook hanging when we know nothing of what happened is unfair to the character, IMO.

 

As for Hook being angry at Emma for saving someone's life (yes, even if it's someone so deeply unworthy like Woegina), I don't think that's Hook's style. Hook went into this relationship with Emma eyes open. He knows that Emma's The Savior and that her desire to do the right thing and save those that need it is simply part of who she is. In fact, Hook went to NYC to find Emma because she's The Savior and he knew she would want to help her family and friends. It's who Emma is and that's partly why Hook fell in love with her. It was Emma's desire to reach out and try and help, and that reminder that he was capable of the same that sent Hook coming back with the magic bean at the end of 2A.  So I don't think Hook would be angry and lash out at Emma for simply being who she is. In some ways the relationship calls to mind people who are married or involved with firefighters or military personnel, or others who put their life on the line for others as part of their everyday. It's part of who they are, and you accept it and love them for it even. I think Hook can be angry at the situation and at those responsible for bringing that situation to a head (Rumpel, Regina, The Apprentice, The Author, etc), but I don't think he should be or will be angry at Emma for being who she is. It's also (IMO) self-centered to be angry at her for saving a life. I hate to say it, but for Hook to be angry at Emma for saving someone's life (and the town), well, that would be very Regina of him, seeing as Regina was raging at Emma for saving Marian, and in Regina's mind, therefore ruining her happiness. I don't think that should ever be something Hook rages at Emma for and fortunately, I don't think he ever would. 

 

Personally, what I like about Hook in terms of his relationship with Emma is that he loves Emma for who she is, every part of her and he doesn't fixate on her being The Savior (unlike her family who sees her as mostly just that).

 

ETA: Honestly, if anyone is going to be (and has been) angry at having to be The Savior it's Emma herself. Emma helps save people and puts her life on the line for them because it's who she is, but a part of her hates that about her life (and herself) and she's said as much on screen.

That's probably why in interviews Jennifer Morrison has said that The Dark Swan is in a way freeing for Emma because she gets to give a big middle finger to being The Savior. Meanwhile, her family are going to be trying to drag her back to an aspect of her life that she partly doesn't really love -- back to being The Savior.

Edited September 11, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[YaddaYadda]

I know in interviews during 4A there was talk going about how Emma's reticence to move forward with Hook was in part because she felt bad about Regina's situation, but I don't remember it being actually said on screen as a reason. In show, from what I recall, the reason Emma was freaked out by moving forward with Hook is because she had really strong feelings for him and that in the past all the men in her life that she had strong feelings for had left her or died, and that's why she was hesitant with Hook. She said almost exactly that to Hook himself when he pushed her on it. But after that things have progressed nicely between them.

 

Basically what happened was Emma confirmed to Hook that she was avoiding him when he called her out on it in 4x01. She said she felt too guilty and he assumed it was because of Regina and then called her out once more by saying that there was more that she wasn't telling him, then she asked him to be patient.

 

Then she had her near death experience in the ice cave where she became a bit more "open", I guess.

 

Then he had his near death experience at Ingrid's hand which pissed Emma off because she wanted him out of the way and out of danger. When he again called her out, she finally spilled that she didn't want to lose him.

 

Personally, what I like about Hook in terms of his relationship with Emma is that he loves Emma for who she is, every part of her and he doesn't fixate on her being The Savior (unlike her family who sees her as mostly just that).

 

That's because he's always seen the magic as being part of her and not who she is. Suddenly her parents were talking about her during the missing year because of her magic and Henry slapped that Savior label on her hard plus that whole you're responsible for everyone's happy ending which you know, huge part of the finale because Regina's happy ending is part of it too.

 

And Emma should give the middle finger to anyone and everyone whose ever looked at her as just the Savior, because she's more than that. 

 

It reminds me of that line from Zelena in season 3 when she cursed Hook's lips and told him to take away everything that made Emma Swan special, which was her magic. That line sucked on so many levels because that's how most people probably look at her.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think Hook will complain about Emma caring what happens to Regina or trying to help her, unless there's ever a situation that's an outright sacrifice just for Regina that has no greater good implications and that's all Regina's fault in the first place, because he puts himself in the same class as Regina. Emma being willing to help, stand up for, and protect Regina means she'll do the same for him. If she ever felt Regina was beneath her notice, then she might think he didn't deserve her attention (at least, that's the way he seems to see it). That's part of why the whole Operation Dumbass plot had so many implications I don't think the writers ever considered. If Emma thought that Regina truly had to find the Author and rewrite the universe to get a happy ending, did that mean that she thought the same thing about Hook? And if she thought that, then why were all her efforts for Regina, with no suggestion that she was also doing it so Hook could have a happy ending?

 

Of course, it all worked out that Regina didn't have to rewrite the universe, that she wrote her own happy ending. But Emma acted through that whole arc as though she believed it and never suggested that maybe it was up to Regina herself, so did that mean she ever believed that Hook also couldn't have a happy ending without Operation Mongoose? Or does Emma put Hook in a different category than Regina, even if he doesn't?

 

That actually might have made the storyline more interesting, if Emma was fighting for her own happy ending, as well -- if her happy ending was with Hook and he's a former villain so he can't have a happy ending without changing the universe, then that means she can't have a happy ending without changing the universe (a big flaw in that plot -- clashing universal rules if heroes get happy endings and villains can't, what happens when a hero and a villain want the same thing?), and then maybe there's some fear in there from her disastrous romantic past that makes her desperate to do something to change her pattern and keep him alive and with her.

[Curio]

unless there's ever a situation that's an outright sacrifice just for Regina that has no greater good implications and that's all Regina's fault in the first place

 

Wasn't that Operation Mongoose in a nutshell? Emma sacrificed her time and efforts just for Regina and no one else for that plan, there were no greater good implications because it was all completely pointless in the end, and it was all Regina's fault in the first place because she's the one who came up with the dumbass plan to blame an inanimate object and rewrite her ending.

[Shanna Marie]

Wasn't that Operation Mongoose in a nutshell? Emma sacrificed her time and efforts just for Regina and no one else for that plan, there were no greater good implications because it was all completely pointless in the end, and it was all Regina's fault in the first place because she's the one who came up with the dumbass plan to blame an inanimate object and rewrite her ending.

I was thinking of a more drastic sacrifice, like taking a bullet (or the equivalent) for Regina, say, when the loved one of someone whose heart Regina ripped out came looking for revenge. I was going to say that no real harm came directly from Operation Mongoose, but there was lots of indirect harm -- letting the Queens of Darkness in town because Regina was suddenly on a "let all the villains find their happy endings!" kick was what led to the eggnapping plot being revealed, and then Rumple hijacking Operation Mongoose for his own ends led to Pinocchio being kidnapped, turned back into an adult, and tortured, and then he was weak and sick from having been jacked around magically so much. And then there are all the memories they apparently all still have from the AU, which means Emma has memories of being chained up in a tower for years and Hook remembers being killed, and David remembers killing him (and actually seems to feel bad about it), and Emma remembers watching him die. So they all came out of it with some trauma, and I think that does count as direct harm, since it came directly from freeing the Author and giving him ink, which was the goal of Operation Idiocy. But none of that is Regina's fault!

 

If you ignore the meta that the writers probably didn't think through all the implications of this plot and only deal with what was on the screen, you have to wonder what Hook thought about Operation Mongoose. There was the hint at the end of "Poor Unfortunate Soul" that he was worried about his potential outcome, based on the villains don't get happy endings thing, so in watching Emma spend all her time on Operation Mongoose for Regina, did he wonder if that meant Emma thought he, too, couldn't get a happy ending? When he brought it up, she brushed off the concern, but why did she believe Regina needed Operation Mongoose but Hook didn't?

 

On an entirely (well, mostly) unrelated note, I have to say that another relationship that baffles me in my rewatch is Neal and Emma 2.0, specifically the "I love you" at the portal and her later tearful confession to Snow that she never stopped loving him. When you look at what happened with them, that seems odd and rather overwrought. They were together for a matter of months, and then she didn't see him for more than a decade after he did something horrible to her. How many people really would carry a torch for that long? I'm not even sure I could hold on to serious hate for that long. I could see maybe needing closure or having old memories stirred up by seeing him again in such crazy circumstances, but then after actually being around him, the way he was acting would have killed all feelings that were stirred up. He told her he jacked with her life "for her own good," admitted that he wouldn't have gone near her if he'd known who she was, threw her under the bus with Henry instead of admitting that he'd treated her horribly (and was even a big part of the reason she felt she had to give him up), flaunted his fiancee to her, and refused to listen to her (accurate) misgivings about his fiancee. Emma's a much better person than I am because I'm afraid I'd have been more "Have fun in hell, bastard!" than "I love you!" when he went through the portal. Of course, from a meta perspective, it was all about generating drama. They needed the Big!Dramatic!Moment! in the season finale, and then her "I never stopped loving him" was mostly about setting up Hook's dilemma, so we'd fear that if he did the right thing and told Emma Neal was still alive, it looked like he had something to lose because Emma still loved Neal.

 

Though that still being in love after years apart and after the guy was a jerk thing is a common trope in fiction, so maybe I just detach more easily than most people.

[Camera One]

that seems odd and rather overwrought. They were together for a matter of months, and then she didn't see him for more than a decade after he did something horrible to her. How many people really would carry a torch for that long?

 

This is Emma we're talking about.  We've also seen Emma thinking back to how she wished she hadn't pushed away Lily, a random person who she knew for a few days max, someone she hadn't seen for even longer than Neal.  Months would be a lot longer, in relative terms, for someone who had very limited numbers of people who she connected with and cared for her.  

[didia]

Don't forget that August, apparently, is one of her best friends!

 

 

Seriously, it didn't make any sense! She didn't act like she was jealous of Tamara or something. Neal treated her badly after all this time, and she is supposed to be a strong woman. I literally yelled at my TV when she said she loved him.

Edited September 12, 2015 by didia

[mjgchick]

Then after one kiss from Hook she wished he (Neal) was dead. What the fuck is wrong with these writers?

Edited September 12, 2015 by mjgchick

[Serena]

Then after one kiss from Hook she wished he (Neal) was dead. What the fuck is wrong with these writers?

The kiss with Hook and her wishing Neal was dead didn't have anything to do with each other, though. It wasn't like "Ugh, now that I have the hots for Hook, Neal coming back is totally gonna inconvenience my sexy times." It was because Neal treated her like shit 10 years ago, and treated her like shit when he came back, and basically her whole relationship with Neal was painful for her and him being back meant it was gonna continue to be.

 

Or at least she thought so. Because actually, that scene in 306 was the last time Emma seemed to have an actual emotional reaction to Neal's existence or give a shit, except when he died. Even when he asked her out post-Neverland she was like... "Ugh, but DADDY, DO I HAVE TO?!"

[Mari]

I've wondered if the flip from "I love you." to "I wish you were dead." had its roots in a summer change of heart for the writers.

[Curio]

I've wondered if the flip from "I love you." to "I wish you were dead." had its roots in a summer change of heart for the writers.

 

I always had the impression there was a lot of course-correction from Season 2 to Season 3, especially when you look at how quickly they killed off Greg and Tamara and that's also when they began to do their split-season structure. I remember going into Season 3 thinking they'd still somehow put Neal and Emma together, but was pleasantly surprised when they actually went with Hook instead.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I've wondered if the flip from "I love you." to "I wish you were dead." had its roots in a summer change of heart for the writers.

I don't think the "I wish you were dead" was meant as "Burn in hell, asshole, and good riddance," though. It seemed to be saying just how much she did love him, that she couldn't bear to lose him yet again. If he were dead, she could move on, once and for all, but as long as he was still alive, she would never be completely over him, and yet every time she found him, she kept losing him and she couldn't go through that again. It wasn't too long before the "I wish you were dead" speech that she was weepily declaring to Snow that she never stopped loving him, and she was upset because she realized that just as she lost him. It wasn't too far from her speech to alt!Regina about losing Hook before she told him she loved him. So I don't think we were meant to believe she really hated him. She loved him too much to get over him, but she also couldn't let herself be with him because she was scared. It would be easier for her if he were dead and she didn't have to make any choices about him.

 

These people really do need to take a look at the relationships they're writing and their relative intensity. Would a foster kid who'd been bounced among homes really attach that strongly to one friend of a few hours? Surely she'd made at least one friend among foster siblings before then. Though with Lily I guess it was meant to show their mystic bond, that it wasn't just a case of a friend she never forgot. There was destiny that kept that link active so she couldn't move past it. If it had been some random chick, she might not have thought twice about Lily.

[mjgchick]

 

The kiss with Hook and her wishing Neal was dead didn't have anything to do with each other, though. It wasn't like "Ugh, now that I have the hots for Hook, Neal coming back is totally gonna inconvenience my sexy times."

I just meant why have her say "I love you." to him then have her admit she wish he were dead? But after Nerverland she really did act like she was over him. I still wonder what type of storyline Hook would've had in S2 had Colin didn't break his leg. Would we see silly triangle drama from Neverland or would we have Hook try to manipulate Bae into hating Rumple?

[Mari]

I guess I didn't think the "I want you dead," was literal, either--I just meant it as an example of  a fairly extreme flip in what seemed to be the planned story.

 

I think they included hints to a Neal/Emma reunion in season 2.  I don't think they were convincing, because I was right there with didia in yelling at my TV when Emma said it, but looking back, they included bits like the "You're jealous." thing from Neal.  

 

It seems like they were going for a much different Neal/Emma/Hook dynamic than we ended up with, and the big switch really happened when they did the season 2-3 course corrections.  There was some lip service to Emma and Neal as a viable couple, but they didn't really push it much in season 3.

 

 Would we see silly triangle drama from Neverland or would we have Hook try to manipulate Bae into hating Rumple?

 

That's a very good question.  That would've been interesting, and might not have taken much manipulation.  Did we ever find out if Neal knew what really happened to his mother?  And they've included teeny hints that Neal and Hook ended up reconciling some, so if he'd been more available in season 2, we might have had different developments there, too.

 

The other direction they could've gone is even more ridiculous triangle drama.  If that was their original plan, I'm glad that was scuttled, although I wish it hadn't taken actual physical damage to put an end to that.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

Did we ever find out if Neal knew what really happened to his mother?

We saw Hook tell him, and he didn't try to deny it or not believe it. He was just angry at his mother for having left him, and angry at Hook for being the one who took her away. So he knew all along. We just never saw him address that with his father. He was angry and bitter with his father for a lot of things, but what happened to his mother never came up.

 

I think there were enough hints in Neverland to suggest that Bae and Hook did end up having more of a relationship than the bit we saw in that one flashback. Hook knew how to find Bae's cave and how to get inside, and he mentioned teaching to navigate by the stars, when all we saw before was port and starboard. I also noticed that when they were searching Bae's cave, David was flipping through a book he found there, and I can't think of where else Bae would have obtained a book in Neverland other than from Hook and the Jolly Roger. Then there was Hook's degree of grief at both the first believed death and the second real death.

 

I can't imagine what they'd have done if Hook had been around for the Neal in Storybrooke arc. The moment when Bae is pulled on board a ship and we then see it's Hook welcoming him aboard is one of my favorite moments in the series, one of those times when the connection between two characters worked, and I'd have hated to lose that by already knowing what their relationship was. They'd hinted at it with Neal recognizing Hook and then knowing how to sail a pirate ship, but if we'd seen them actually interacting it might have taken away from that moment where we didn't know what was likely to come. I just wish we'd have more interaction between the two guys after that, both in flashback and in the present. And it would have been interesting seeing Rumple's reaction to their friendship.

 

I wouldn't have wanted a conventional triangle where Emma bounced back and forth between the two guys who were competing over her, but I think it would have been interesting to have Neal around a bit longer to see how all those interrelationships were going to work -- what would have happened if Hook's decision to back off and give Neal a chance for Henry's sake hadn't been upended by the forced separation? Would he have been able to stick with it? What would Emma have said about it if she knew? Would Emma have been interested in giving Neal another shot, or would the two of them have figured out -- as they eventually did -- that it was already over? And would Neal and Hook have managed to revive their friendship through it all? Though I'm sure Henry would have been horribly annoying about the whole thing, so maybe it's best that they just cut things off abruptly the way they did.

[mjgchick]

Oh how about how would Neal and Regina deal with sharing Henry. Regina called him a "Person" for gods sakes. I've never laughed so hard in my life but I don't think I was suppose to.

[Curio]

Oh how about how would Neal and Regina deal with sharing Henry. Regina called him a "Person" for gods sakes.

 

If Neal and Emma hadn't worked out and were just cordial co-parents, I would've loved to have seen the crazy dynamics of Henry trying to remember which house he was supposed to be at each day. "Is it a Regina/Robin day? An Emma/Hook day? A Neal day? A Rumple/Pawn Shop day? Am I babysitting Snowflake at Snow and Charming's place?"

Edited September 12, 2015 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

 

I just meant why have her say "I love you." to him then have her admit she wish he were dead?

 

Emma said she loved him and probably always would, but that everything about their relationship was too painful to deal with. She was hoping that he was dead because she didn't want to deal with all of that pain again. She didn't want to get back together with him. It was a way of saying that she hadn't been wishing him dead, just that his death had given her closure and she'd been okay with that and was hoping she wouldn't have to work through all of it again. They had to put the "I love you" stuff in there to make it clear that Emma wasn't thinking Yay! Neal's dead!, but conflicted about revisiting a part of her life that was incredibly painful and difficult.

[Souris]

I can only head canon Emma's "I love you" to Neal as her having no frame of reference for what love actually is, and since she was still hung up on and in pain because of what he did to her and was unable to move past it, she thought that meant she still loved him. In her mind, continued pain = love.

[Camera One]

It was a life and death situation.  I don't think it was too unbelievable that it slipped out in that moment, especially if her feelings were pretty much suppressed.

[YaddaYadda]

After she tears him a new on in 2x14 (Manhattan), and everyone goes back to Storybrooke, it doesn't help that Mary Margaret is sort of all over that trying to push Emma towards Neal and then everyone dismissing Emma's gut instinct about Tamara and chalking it up as her being jealous. Her parents never asked her what happened with Neal. Emma told MM in season 1 that Henry's father wasn't a great guy. That's what used to drive me nuts. So, he's not a great guy, she said she didn't wanna get back to him, what are you doing not asking her what happened and what are you doing trying to push her together with him or thinking she's jealous? How about asking her?

 

Let's name your new baby brother after that ex of yours instead.

[Shanna Marie]

I can only head canon Emma's "I love you" to Neal as her having no frame of reference for what love actually is, and since she was still hung up on and in pain because of what he did to her and was unable to move past it, she thought that meant she still loved him. In her mind, continued pain = love.

I'm sure it was a retcon that they didn't have in mind back in season 2, but Emma's situation with Ingrid isn't too terribly different from Neal: someone she loved who really seemed to love her and with whom she thought she'd have some degree of acceptance and stability until it all came crashing down horribly and left her more alone than ever. So, did she still love Ingrid? What would she have felt about Ingrid if she hadn't had her memory zapped within seconds of encountering her again?

 

I suppose it's possible that the gift of the car left Emma with a kind of hope that Neal still loved her and that they'd get back together again, and that would explain why she went to Tallahassee after getting out of prison. But when he didn't show up and after a decade went by, I can't imagine her still hanging on to her love for him. It seems more likely that she'd have rationalized it away as having never really loved him, that it was a crush out of desperation and loneliness. And then he was such a putz in Storybrooke that I'd think the primary reaction would have been "I don't know what I ever saw in him, whew, dodged a bullet there." As with so many of the relationship things on this show, they somehow managed to flip the roles of what would have been logical. Neal should have been the one blurting out the "I love you" before falling through the portal and the one who had to admit that he never stopped loving her.

 

One other relationship that doesn't work for me when I rewatch: I can't reconcile season one Henry with current Henry's relationship with Regina. A kid who believed that his mother was evil and knew she didn't love him and knew she was gaslighting him would probably have to go through a lot more of a process before getting to the point of devoting his life to giving his mother a happy ending that he believed she deserved. I hadn't caught before that Archie said he'd been in therapy for years before getting the fairy tale book, so it wasn't just about him having decided she was the Evil Queen from fairy tales. He already felt something was wrong with her and couldn't connect with her. From what Archie said, it sounded like she'd given him the Owen treatment -- she wanted someone who would love her without being forced to by the curse, but then she tried to force it when he actually acted upon his free will. They talked about how Henry had no friends, and he knew his mother didn't really love him. He must have felt so very much alone. She was so terrifying when she was demanding to know what happened to the pages he tore out of the book. Then there's the fact that bringing a child into that environment was cruel and selfish. Even before he started with the fairy tale stuff, I wonder if she'd started gaslighting him to cover up for the fact that he was noticing that nothing in the town was changing, that he was the only person getting older and that time didn't move. Were they trying to tell him that this was ridiculous, even as he noticed that he was the only kid moving up in school? I can see him eventually getting to the point he might have been able to build a relationship with Regina, but it would have had to start almost from square one, and I don't think it would ever have been a real mother/son relationship because they clearly didn't have that foundation from his childhood (until they caved to the adoption advocates and retconned it). She was so awful to him in the first season. Even when she was playing at being loving, she made my skin crawl because it was so obviously fake and calculated, and then she did so much to hurt him in order to win against Emma. What was best for Henry never seemed to factor into the equation for her. It was all about what she wanted and what was best for her.

[Camera One]

But when he didn't show up and after a decade went by, I can't imagine her still hanging on to her love for him. It seems more likely that she'd have rationalized it away as having never really loved him, that it was a crush out of desperation and loneliness.

 

Or that meant she had no closure, and that prolonged and prevented her healing process and resulted in her hanging onto the feelings of love.  A small part of her could have been afraid that he was in danger, which in her mind explained why he didn't show up in Tallahassee.  Seeing Neal again and finally knowing the reason why he left her would have mixed up all the feelings she had suppressed.

 

Agreed about the Regina/Henry switcheroo.  If they wanted to build a true relationship between Regina and Henry, where Henry grew to love the person Regina eventually became by the fourth season, that could actually have worked.  But as usual, there is no relationship building on this show, just epiphany hopping.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

Or that meant she had no closure, and that prolonged and prevented her healing process and resulted in her hanging onto the feelings of love. A small part of her could have been afraid that he was in danger, which in her mind explained why he didn't show up in Tallahassee.  Seeing Neal again and finally knowing the reason why he left her would have mixed up all the feelings she had suppressed.

 

I think Emma's relationship with Neal was love, but it wasn't a mature adult love. Emma was not only a teenager when she met Neal, she had spent a lifetime feeling completely unloved and worthless. She was a giant sponge for any positive feelings that came her way and she had a whole ton of love to give. This would greatly magnify those feelings that people experience with their first love. Add in the fact that Emma had the emotional maturity of a five year old and Emma's understanding of what she was feeling would be very skewed from what a normal person would feel in that situation. Once Neal left her, she shut down completely and never opened herself up to any possible relationships. She was essentially stuck in that understanding of love because she never allowed anything else to break through her walls. Perhaps if she'd experienced another relationship in the intervening years, she'd have gained a better understanding of love and been able to let go of some of her feelings for Neal. I would bet that Emma would react differently if she'd run into Neal now vs when she did. It did seem like she gained some perspective when they talked after her year in New York. Walsh was a fake, but her feelings were real and they had a mature adult relationship where both parties were on an equal level. It seemed like it had allowed her to gain some form of closure with regards to her feelings for Neal. 

 

What I found less convincing was Neal's suddenly resurgent feelings of love for Emma. Like what? He's totally cool with her pretending she couldn't catch him, didn't bother to go to Storybrooke once the curse broke, "needs" his fiancee and seems totally into Tamara and then two minutes after she tries to kill him, he's all in love with Emma. Please. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by KAOS Agent