Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Serena]

If they want to go full-soap opera, they could have done ILY in the loft, and "Promise me you will find someone new and fall in love with them!" at the end.

But that wouldn't have worked with "Please find a way to save me from the darknes, as heroes" that she said to Charming and Snow just before.

[mjgchick]

Either way those last scenes with Emma and those around her showed character growth on her part. I think the ILU, trusting her parents and sacrificing for someone she once hate is what this whole thing was about. Granted I'll never buy Emma and Regina's friendship but hell we're stuck with it I guess.

[Shanna Marie]

The crushed heart is the real problem, where the writers really failed us. Writers don't always have to write things the way I think they ought to, but I really do think it's inexcusable that we got no emotional fallout from that at all. Even if no words were spoken about it, Morrison and O'Donoghue are perfectly capable of laying it out without words, if they'd been given the opportunity. Again, I don't even mind if she didn't say it there, because it's Emma, and she wasn't ready. But she should have be allowed to look it.

There's a really, really easy fix for this that wouldn't have taken any extra time and wouldn't have changed much other than making a lot more sense: have Emma be the one to dive in for the kiss after restoring his heart. It didn't make a lot of sense for him to be the one to do it, other than him having been numb and getting his full feelings back, since he's been kissing her all along while having the heart missing. But if he's clearly rattled but trying to play it cool with the "I'm a survivor" routine and she dives in for the kiss, then she's showing the emotion, and she can then be a bit wigged out by it, unable to say the words, and that gives her a reason to run off and do shots with Regina. The way it played out, he nearly died and she barely cared. But if she's the one to kiss him, then we can see that she does care and that scares her. That can be one of the "almost, but not quite" moments that she comes to regret when she sees him really die.

 

But that wouldn't have worked with "Please find a way to save me from the darknes, as heroes" that she said to Charming and Snow just before.

Yeah, the "I love you" was in no way a farewell. It was a "I trust you to save me." I still think she could have said it in the loft and then repeated it as a reminder to make sure he knew she wasn't leaving him because she wanted to.

[Shanna Marie]

There was some discussion in the fandom thread about an article claiming that Regina and Emma have such a good, healthy friendship that if they got together romantically it would be a wonderful relationship.

 

Not even getting into some of the issues surrounding a romantic relationship, I found myself analyzing the friendship. Is it really that healthy?

 

I suppose we have to disregard the multiple times Regina has tried to kill Emma (at birth, with the apple tart, the failsafe) since Emma knows about all of them and has apparently moved past them. I don't know how healthy it is that this doesn't bother her. I guess since Regina recognized where she went wrong, apologized, and said she was through with it all -- oh, wait. But I suppose her recent behavior sort of shows that she is no longer actively seeking Emma's death, and Emma seems to recognize that current Regina isn't the same as she was a little more than a year ago when she was plotting to destroy the whole town and kill everyone in it.

 

Then there's all the abuse, belittling and insults, which Emma seems to recognize as just Regina's personality and the way she deals with people. It's mature of Emma to be able to see past the surface, but I'm not sure it's healthy for Regina to handle all her relationships this way. At some point, an adult needs to be able to say what she thinks and feels instead of relying on others to read between the lines of things she says that are the exact opposite of her feelings. It's good for friends to hold each other accountable, so she doesn't have to stop criticizing Emma entirely, but she also has to be able to take criticism without flying off the handle or acting like she's been insulted.

 

While it's good for a friend to be supportive and to want the friend to find happiness, I think it's extremely unhealthy for both parties for one friend to pledge herself to finding a happy ending for the other friend, especially when the other friend has a history of making bad choices that have caused much of her unhappiness and when the friend refuses to take responsibility for these bad choices. No one can make another person happy. It's not anyone's job to make anyone else happy. This is where I feel like they sacrificed Emma's character and common sense in trying to force the Operation Dumbass plot. Emma's job as Savior to bring happy endings was never about going out and doing it for them. What she always did was provide the pep talk or kick in the pants and then clear away the injustice that might be getting in the way. It was still up to the person to take advantage of this and find their own happiness. In a healthy relationship, Regina's friend might have gone drinking with her, watched Meg Ryan movies with her, listened to her vent, then dragged her out to do things where she might meet people, played wingman when they went out, or set her up with her boyfriend's friend (Smee+Regina=True Love?). Guaranteeing a happy ending by rewriting the rules of the universe is right out. The way they did it didn't feel authentic to Emma's character. In a meta sense, that's a writing problem, but within the show, since it actually happened that way, I have to call it an unhealthy guilt complex on Emma's part.

 

And that brings me to the biggest issue, the elephant in the room in this situation: Graham. All this time, Regina was hurling insults and accusations at Emma for ruining her relationship with Robin by rescuing Marian (and Emma did rescue Marian. She just didn't know that Zelena replaced her afterward) and was accusing her of having done it on purpose, and there doesn't seem to have been the slightest scrap of self awareness in Regina that she did the same thing to Emma -- and worse, because she actually murdered the guy Emma was just starting to get involved with, out of spite. She let Emma apologize and grovel and devote a lot of time and energy to finding her happy ending, all while knowing what she did to Graham. How can this be a friendship when there's this huge secret in the middle of it? Maybe if Emma knew and knew that Regina had come a long way since then it might be something they could move past, but Emma doesn't know and Regina lets her go on feeling guilty about ruining a relationship by saving a life without coming clean about what she did to Emma. She doesn't even seem to be making the connection at all.

 

Basically, it's a one-sided relationship in which one person is doing 98 percent of the giving, and even much of that giving isn't good for the other person because it's enabling rather than helping her be a better person. Emma is letting Regina go on being the person she is rather than expecting more of her, and that's not good for Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Most of this is sort of a moot point.

 

Whatever Regina did to Graham will never be brought up again.

Regina wanting to kill Emma 2 minutes after she was born will not be brought up.

Regina teaming up with Cora will not be brought up, but then she also tried to redeem herself with the whole trigger business.

 

My opinion on the matter is whatever progress the Regina/Emma friendship made in season 3 was damaged by episode 4x05 and the whole you saved Marian, how dare you!  And they keep taking the relationship from 0 to 100.  I have whiplash with the writing for them.

[october]

Like romantic, sexual or familial relationships, friendships can be abusive too. I would definitely put Regina and Emma's friendship in that bracket. I don't think a healthy relationship can exist when one person has the legitimate fear that the other person will lash out and hurt them, their family or innocent people if she's displeased. When Regina marched off after Marian came back the fear that she'd 'turn evil again' was brought up by Charming and Henry. Then we had Regina locking Henry out of his own home, which hurt him terribly. I do think Emma genuinely cares about Regina's feelings for their own sake, but the cost of Regina not getting what she wants is very high so their relationship always looks, to me, like a grown up trying to soothe a toddler whose tantrums could level a city block.

[Shanna Marie]

At this point, for me this issue with the Graham situation isn't so much anymore what Regina did to Graham -- they're treating it like she was a different person at that point, and she has changed -- but the fact that she's not coming clean about it in spite of being in a parallel situation. Emma might be able to move past it if she knew, the way she's moved past the times Regina tried to kill her. But Regina let Emma grovel to her and let her spend a fair amount of time making it up to her and trying to get a happy ending for her -- with what were very nearly permanently fatal consequences -- all while knowing that Regina had done far worse to Emma. That's the part that I, as a viewer, can't deal with and a reason I can't accept this as a real friendship. I know how horribly betrayed I would feel if I'd been feeling bad about something I unintentionally did to a friend that caused pain, and if that friend had made sure I knew how bad she felt because of what I did, and then I learned that this friend was actually responsible for something that caused me a great deal of pain, and she'd done it on purpose out of spite, and she'd never owned up to it. I would be outraged if someone played the victim when I hurt her without confessing that she'd done worse to me. It means the friendship is based on a false foundation.

 

It would have been very different if, say, Regina had an epiphany when she lost Robin about how this was what she'd done to others, and if when Emma tried to apologize she admitted what she'd done to Graham.

 

But no, I don't expect Emma to find out, or if she does she won't feel betrayed even though she's continuing to feel pain about Graham and even mentioned that as a reason she was afraid to get involved with Hook. But this is why I don't consider this to be a positive friendship, and it would be even worse if it ever went romantic. That would definitely be a dealbreaker for me with the series.

[pezgirl7]

Shanna Marie, I feel like a lot of the negative things you mentioned about their relationship is similar to the things that anti-Hook people say about Captain Swan, with the roles reversed. I think the Captain Swan relationship has changed quite a bit, but at some point, many said that Hook was only focused on Emma's happy ending. He let Emma push him away and let her say hurtful things to him (although it was only a few times). And when they did finally get together, Emma was able to forgive his past misdeeds and see the best in him, just like Emma seems to be able to do with Regina. So then I have to ask why does Emma's friendship with Regina bother me when her relationship with Hook doesn't? I think a lot of has to do with Regina's past misdeeds, and her lack of remorse. Also, the crap she spews at Emma isn't anywhere near the level of what Emma has ever said to Hook. And I don't remember Emma ever blaming Hook for anything in her life. Also, while Emma and Hook seem to bring out the best in each other as well as wanting the best for each other, I just don't see those reciprocal feelings in Regina when it comes to Emma.

Edited July 21, 2015 by pezgirl7

[YaddaYadda]

He let Emma push him away and let her say hurtful things to him (although it was only a few times).

 

I've always looked at this as sort of an extenuating circumstances thing (not that it excuses Emma taking her frustrations out on him).  He was the one who pulled her out of her good life in NYC and when she drank that potion, she was faced with the thing she had done and regretted, chief among them was giving Henry up for adoption.  The fake memories that Regina gave Emma showed her that she might have been able to keep her son and even give him a good life (even if it wasn't in that super expensive loft she lived in).  During the missing year, Henry was her son and her son alone and bringing him to Storybrooke and meant that this would be gone and that she would have to share him.  Hook brought her back, I think she would have done the same thing with anyone who took her out of that life.

[october]

In light of the discussion I thought I'd post these videos (not made by me):

 

 

 

 

Also, the crap she spews at Emma isn't anywhere near the level of what Emma has ever said to Hook.

 

Another thing I'd add is that Hook was allowed to be frustrated with Emma and give as good as he got. More importantly those sorts of exchanges stopped after they became a bonafide couple. We as viewers are being asked to accept Regina and Emma as friends while still having Regina talk to her like she's something stuck to the bottom of her shoe.

Edited July 21, 2015 by october

[YaddaYadda]

Another thing I'd add is that Hook was allowed to be frustrated with Emma and give as good as he got. More importantly those sorts of exchanges stopped after they became a bonafide couple. We as viewers are being asked to accept Regina and Emma as friends while still having Regina talk to her like she's something stuck to the bottom of her shoe.

 

But that's because the writers mistake bitchiness with sass.

[Shanna Marie]

Another thing I'd add is that Hook was allowed to be frustrated with Emma and give as good as he got. More importantly those sorts of exchanges stopped after they became a bonafide couple. We as viewers are being asked to accept Regina and Emma as friends while still having Regina talk to her like she's something stuck to the bottom of her shoe.

I think that's the key. Hook was allowed to defend himself gently but firmly when Emma's accusations of him were untrue and unfair without him being made to look like the villain and her like a victim, and without her flying off the handle. Now that they're in a relationship, she may gently tease him, but there's no venom to it at all. They may hold each other accountable and call each other out when they're in the wrong, but it doesn't come across as blaming and is said in love rather than spite. In fact, they've even talked about choosing to see the best in each other.

 

I think another factor is that while both of them have bad things in their past that they probably haven't yet shared with each other, none of it directly involves the other person. They aren't keeping secret the thing they did in the past that hurt the other person while still holding the other person's "wrongs" over their head. Emma knows Hook has had a long lifetime on the wrong side of the good/evil divide, but I can't think of anything he's done that affected her that he hasn't come clean about.

[october]

But that's because the writers mistake bitchiness with sass.

 

Wait. Are you telling me you wouldn't find it hillarious and endearing if your friend made fun of the way you eat and fired a fat joke towards your heavily pregnant mother? Shocking :D

[Curio]

At this point, for me this issue with the Graham situation isn't so much anymore what Regina did to Graham -- they're treating it like she was a different person at that point, and she has changed -- but the fact that she's not coming clean about it in spite of being in a parallel situation.

 

Exactly. During 4A, Regina should have realized she put Emma through a very similar situation, and the Graham situation was even worse because he was murdered. But she never made that connection, allowed Emma to grovel at her feet, and Regina berated her over and over. And then during 4B, when Snow and Charming's retconned egg baby secret came out of no where and Hook's secret about Ursula was revealed, it was another missed opportunity for Regina to have that moment of realization. Emma even mentioned to Regina that she could tell people were lying to her and it upset her, and Regina doesn't even make the connection to come clean about murdering Emma's friend.

 

The big issue here is that the writers expect the audience to forget that pesky murder because it happened all the way back in Season 1 and they need the audience to accept that Regina is "good" now, so by not bringing it up now, they're essentially erasing their own past. But when you look at the show's timeline, Graham's death happened fairly recently, so it's something that should still be an issue if these characters were allowed to react realistically to things.

 

I think the Captain Swan relationship has changed quite a bit, but at some point, many said that Hook was only focused on Emma's happy ending. He let Emma push him away and let her say hurtful things to him (although it was only a few times). And when they did finally get together, Emma was able to forgive his past misdeeds and see the best in him, just like Emma seems to be able to do with Regina.

 

The difference here is looking at who is the victim and who is the villain. When Hook met Emma, he was a villain. He was untrustworthy because he didn't play "sides" and he only wanted what was best for himself. He partnered with Cora and had a sword fight with Emma. He didn't deserve to be coddled and had to work hard to gain Emma's trust. Emma didn't owe him anything, and a few sarcastic and harsh comments here and there were probably deserved in the grand scheme of things because of the bad things he did in his past. So Hook, as the villain looking to change for the better, knew it was his responsibility to reach out and try to gain Emma's friendship because he was the villain. It would have been unhealthy if it had been reversed and Emma was begging for his friendship.

 

Which is exactly what we have with Regina and Emma. Regina is the villain; Emma is the victim. Yet, Emma feels some guilty obligation to seek out her friendship and take her occasional verbal abuse. Regina should have been the one seeking Emma's friendship, not the other way around. And instead of slowly re-building their friendship after the 4x05 debacle,  we go from 0 to 100 during the break between 4A and 4B. During the 4A finale, Regina still didn't want anything to do with Emma and Emma forced her way into having shots with her, and then by 4B they're suddenly BFFs. There's just so many things that feel wrong with the friendship that I doubt I'll ever buy into it.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Wait. Are you telling me you wouldn't find it hillarious and endearing if your friend made fun of the way you eat and fired a fat joke towards your heavily pregnant mother? Shocking :D

I know right?  And that Hagen Daaz joke was horrible and mean spirited.  And since I'm someone who usually cuts people out of her life for a lot less than that, I just cannot with the whole Emma/Regina friendship.  I've accepted that it's part of the show, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or praise it.  Because I won't.

[Shanna Marie]

So Hook, as the villain looking to change for the better, knew it was his responsibility to reach out and try to gain Emma's friendship because he was the villain. It would have been unhealthy if it had been reversed and Emma was begging for his friendship.

Yeah, if Emma and Hook played out like Regina and Emma, then she'd have been chasing after him, trying to be his friend even as he was snarky and rude to her. She'd grovel to apologize for leaving him at the top of the beanstalk, and he'd let her, conveniently ignoring the fact that he left her in a cell without any way out that he knew of. He'd get all huffy if anyone mentioned any of his past bad deeds. She would praise him for every little good thing he did, and he'd criticize and insult her constantly.

 

She had some leeway to be skeptical and critical of him at first because he until rather recently was a bad person, and he had to earn her good opinion and prove that he'd changed for good, that it wasn't just an act and he wasn't going to seesaw. And he had the self awareness to know that he had it coming, so he took it, only defending himself when she was truly out of line.

 

The big issue here is that the writers expect the audience to forget that pesky murder because it happened all the way back in Season 1 and they need the audience to accept that Regina is "good" now, so by not bringing it up now, they're essentially erasing their own past. But when you look at the show's timeline, Graham's death happened fairly recently, so it's something that should still be an issue if these characters were allowed to react realistically to things.

Even if you regard the murder as something that "old" Regina did, and she's changed so it's time to move past it, my issue with it is Regina not making the connection between that and her situation with Robin and her criticizing Emma for doing something that's nowhere near as bad as what she did without acknowledging what she did. Regina holds Marian's return against Emma and blames her for ruining her relationship with Robin even while knowing that she murdered Emma's last almost relationship on purpose. She lets Emma apologize and seems to expect Emma's help on finding her happy ending, like Emma owes it to her. That's incredibly dishonest, hypocritical, and entirely lacking in self awareness, and that's happened in the very recent past. It was happening while Emma was desperately trying to be friends with Regina. So even if you believe the murder shouldn't matter to their relationship because it was so long ago, the hypocrisy and dishonesty are current. It also suggests that Regina hasn't changed that much if she hasn't gained the empathy to make the connection between the pain she's feeling and the pain she caused. She's shown no signs of remorse for killing Graham, which means that she hasn't changed and that's not something that can be blamed on "old" Regina.

[Dianthus]

Spuffy could be deeply dysfunctional at times, but it was being presented as such and it made sense in context. The SwanQueen "friendship" can be deeply dysfunctional at times, but it's being presented as a good thing, and it makes no effing sense whatsoever!

I find the very idea of a romantic relationship between them gross and obscene.

I hate that so many SQ 'shippers lash out at Hook, dismiss his efforts on Emma's behalf and feel the need to diminish any/all of his achievements. It's like this Captain Rapist BS that came up recently. As near as I can tell, that's based primarily on comments Hook made to Rumple in the distant past, bears no relation to what we've seen on screen and seems (IMO) a way of rationalizing hatred for this character.

In addition, I have little patience with the accusations of homophobia coming from that quarter. I didn't mind Willow and Tara in the least.

[october]

Another thing that makes Emma and Hooks relationship different is that Hook's approach to making Emma happy is entirely down to earth and in proportion to what Emma is actually going through. He wants to make her smile after a hard day at work? He brings her grilled cheese. He sees her looking pensive or sad? He asks her about her past experiences or tells her that he understands. She falls out with her parents and he stays with her and talks to her about it when she's had time to cool down. He's not rushing out to open Pandora's box because Emma has a papercut. But Regina breaks up with her new boyfriend and suddenly everyone's yelling 'battle stations!' and playing with metaphorical fire.

[Mari]

Another thing that makes Emma and Hooks relationship different is that Hook's approach to making Emma happy is entirely down to earth and in proportion to what Emma is actually going through. . . But Regina breaks up with her new boyfriend and suddenly everyone's yelling 'battle stations!' and playing with metaphorical fire.

Considering how Regina often has reacted to something being even mildly unpleasant, battles stations would probably be the correct amount of reaction.

[kingshearte]

The big issue here is that the writers expect the audience to forget that pesky murder because it happened all the way back in Season 1 and they need the audience to accept that Regina is "good" now, so by not bringing it up now, they're essentially erasing their own past. But when you look at the show's timeline, Graham's death happened fairly recently, so it's something that should still be an issue if these characters were allowed to react realistically to things.

I feel like another element of that is that the writers are treating this one almost like that groom they showed us recently — some random guy that, yeah, OK, she killed, but who really cares? They don't see him as someone who actually did have a relationship, albeit a brief, not-yet-fully-developed one, with Emma. Therefore, Regina doesn't have to admit to or apologize for killing him, because he's just one of the many "irrelevant" people she's killed "in the past" when she was that "different person."

[Souris]

I can't even get excited about a TLK just because it's the answer to everything now.  I want them to get creative and go down a different way for CS.  They're my ship, I want more for them than a TLK.  

 

I want a CS TLK, dammit, and I want it to be glorious! They can add something even better, too, but I want a TLK b/c there will always be naysayers who say they aren't really TL without it. I want it 100% clear and confirmed they're TL.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

Series finale, final scene - Emma goes to wake up Hook from a sleeping curse just like her parents did in the very first scene of the Pilot.

[Curio]

I'd actually be 100% cool with that. Even if I have to wait 5 more years for it. (God help us if the show lasts that long...)

Edited July 24, 2015 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

I wanted the final scene to be Hook and Emma's wedding, but if they're doing 7 seasons, I don't know if I can wait 3 years for them to get married! I know people don't need to get married or have children to be happy, but my little shipper heart just wants that for them.

[Panopticon]

I love Captain Swan, but I'm set on the final scene being Emma celebrating her birthday surrounded by her parents and son. No more one candle on a cupcake by herself in a dark room after making cracks about being a friendless orphan to a stranger who disgusts her.

Of course Hook can and should be there too, and hopefully they will have TLKed each other along the line, but the relationship(s) I most want hammered home as having come full circle is Emma and her family.

[mjgchick]

Yeah the last scene of OUAT should be Emma celebrating her 30 something birthday with her friends and family. When this show started Emma was a year older than me now I've managed to age a year older than her. Ha.

 

I wouldn't mind a TLK between CS but I hope it's Hook who is the damsel unless none of Emma's family members are around. All they have to do is have Henry or her parents kiss her and poof she's alive.

[pezgirl7]

That would be a good bookend to the first episode. I'm sure Regina, Robin and Roland would have to be there, too. And don't forget baby Neal, who'll be a toddler by then! And Belle and Rumple, if he's still alive. And maybe Zelena, or at least her child. Plus the 20 other new characters that they'll introduce between now and then! LOL As much as I'd like the show to end on a shot of just Emma's immediate family, it would probably be unfair to the fans of the other characters. And I think the writers might consider the entire town to now be Emma's "family". I suppose they could do little vignettes of each group or person, like they did in the final episode of Northern Exposure.

[Panopticon]

I'm legitimately torn about whether I would want Emma or Hook as the damsel in a TLK.

 

On the one hand, Emma is the savior, and the one following in her parent's true loving footsteps, so she should get to do the kissing. There's also the fact that there are three other options if she needs kissing, and it would be really nice for Charming or especially Snow to get to do it after the baby do-over and magic egg fiascoes. 

 

On the other hand, Hook has tried and failed to TLK Emma before and it would add a little something extra to see him succeed. He also spends so much time getting his life saved by assorted princesses (Belle and Ariel as well as Emma) that it's almost a joke. Maybe it would help if he needed the TLK because he'd just done something self-sacrificing to save the whole team...

[Panopticon]

That would be a good bookend to the first episode. I'm sure Regina, Robin and Roland would have to be there, too. And don't forget baby Neal, who'll be a toddler by then! And Belle and Rumple, if he's still alive. And maybe Zelena, or at least her child. Plus the 20 other new characters that they'll introduce between now and then! LOL As much as I'd like the show to end on a shot of just Emma's immediate family, it would probably be unfair to the fans of the other characters. And I think the writers might consider the entire town to now be Emma's "family". I suppose they could do little vignettes of each group or person, like they did in the final episode of Northern Exposure.

 

The whole town/extended family can be at Granny's or the EF central gathering place if they end up back there. Regina can be blissed out with Robin and his kids; Belle can be beaming happily at everyone in love. But then the last shot narrows to show just Emma and her inner circle cuddled up in a booth (or EF equivalent). I think that would be doable to say goodbye to all of the characters and make a last tribute to all of TeamFairytale.

 

The bigger problem is that it's contingent on seeing Emma and her journey as central to the story, and if it's the last episode they may want to go Regina-centric.

[YaddaYadda]

If there's a TLK, I want it to be because Emma is breaking her own curse.  TLKs are just overplayed.

[Souris]

There were 3 TLKs in S1 (plus a debatable/aborted one), 2 TLKs in S2, 1 in S3 and none in S4.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Souris

[pezgirl7]

There were 3 TLKs in S1 (plus a debatable/aborted one), 2 TLKs in S2, 1 in S3 and none in S4.

 

Demonstrating my role as the board member with the worst memory, can you remind me what they were? I remember Snow/Charming, Emma/Henry, Rumple/Belle (but Rumple stopped it) and Regina/Henry. Was one Aurora/Phillip? Who am I missing?

Edited July 24, 2015 by pezgirl7

[daxx]

Snowing after the return from the EF.

[mjgchick]

Yes Snowing had two of the series. They saved each other.

[Camera One]

Every TLK gives you one full season of really bad storylines.  

[Souris]

Demonstrating my role as the board member with the worst memory, can you remind me what they were? I remember Snow/Charming, Emma/Henry, Rumple/Belle (but Rumple stopped it) and Regina/Henry. Was one Aurora/Phillip? Who am I missing?

 

S1: Snowing sleeping curse, Snowing breaking Snow's memory spell (some debate this one), Emma & Henry. Then the aborted Rumbelle TLK. (Some people count Emma/Graham as a TLK. I 100% do not.)

S2: Philip/Aurora, Snowing after Snow's return from the EF when David was under the sleeping curse

S3: Henry/Regina minus her heart

Edited July 24, 2015 by Souris

[HoodlumSheep]

I'd prefer a TLK between CS without either one being a damsel in distress. How about one where they're both conscious?

[RadioGirl27]

Hook and Emma are not going to have a TLK, not this season, not ever. The writers know that the shippers are waiting for it, so they would drag it as long as possible, to keep the fans talking and hoping. And, lets be real, A&E have lost interest in them as a couple now that they are "together" and in Hook as a character, as everything that happened in season 4 shows.

[OnceUponAJen]

I don't agree. Emma will get her happy ending last, so they have to drag out elements of the relationship to the last season. Emma being the Dark One is another convenient way to put things on hold. I'm not saying that's the purpose of the plot line, but that is one of its effects.

[mjgchick]

Hook and Emma are not going to have a TLK, not this season, not ever. The writers know that the shippers are waiting for it, so they would drag it as long as possible, to keep the fans talking and hoping. And, lets be real, A&E have lost interest in them as a couple now that they are "together" and in Hook as a character, as everything that happened in season 4 shows.

You negative Nelly. lol

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know how much their relationship is on hold though.  She's the Dark One, but I'm assuming they're still in a relationship and him not giving up on her (alone with her family) given that he was put through the ringer by the the entity that is the Dark One only means they come out stronger on the other side of this.

 

So about this darkness, does it fill the person's heart or the person's body?  We saw the darkness contained in Rumple's heart, but that was after centuries of evil deeds.  I have a bit of a crack theory, but I don't know...

[pezgirl7]

Thanks everyone for reminding me of the second TLK between Snow and Charming. I think I forgot about it because it was so nonchalant. I feel like when you know a TLK will work, it's a bit boring. The one with Emma and Henry was cool because it was unexpected. Even the one with Rumple and Belle was unexpected, at least for the characters.

Maybe a TLK between Emma and Hook could help free her from being the Dark One, and they can both be awake!

Edited July 24, 2015 by pezgirl7

[Panopticon]

Maybe a TLK between Emma and Hook could help free her from being the Dark One, and they can both be awake!

 

And it would even have an element of her continuing to save herself, since she'd have to let it happen (despite the fact that she'd be enjoying the freedom/power by that point) rather than aborting it midway through the way Rumple did.

 

I would feel bad for hardcore Rumbelle fans if that happened though, since that's a payoff they never got.

[RadioGirl27]

Henry going to AU Hook and saying he had a good teacher tells me they do have a relationship. We're just not seeing it because the writers would rather watch Regina bully her way through an episode I guess.

Maybe Hook and Henry have a great off screen relationship where they go sailing and all that. But the truth is that, on the show, and except for a few group scenes, they haven't shared a single scene where one of them wasn't cursed, and the only info we have about that relationship are a few lines of dialogue that are contradictory. Not only that, even in the finale their interaction were contradictory. First Henry says that Hook is a great teacher with some affection, but later, after Hook sacrificed himself to save him, Henry didn't show any concern for him both in the AU and in Storybrooke. That's why I said in other thread that the relationship doesn't exist, because I don't see it. I only see a lot of contradiction in the way their interactions are depicted.

Edited July 25, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

First Henry says that Hook is a great teacher with some affection, but later, after Hook sacrificed himself to save him, Henry didn't show any concern for him both in the AU and in Storybrooke.

 

I kind of disagree with that.  Henry actually has a reaction to Hook's death in the AU, he is shocked when Hook is stabbed to death.  Which actually brings me to something else regarding Henry and what Emma said in Rocky Road about losing everyone.  Henry has actually gone through the same thing Emma has gone through.  Graham whom he like died.  Walsh who was part of Henry's life for 8 months turned out to not be who he was and I mean we know that he and Walsh spent some time together as per dialogue.  And then Neal died.  So that's like 3 people who were important in Henry's life who left.  

 

When everyone was brought back from the AU, it seemed to me that Henry already knew that Hook was alive because when Emma hugs him and then runs off to check up on Hook, Henry looks like he's about to say something but she just takes off.

[Dianthus]

YaddaYadda, on 25 Jul 2015 - 3:25 PM, said:

I kind of disagree with that.  Henry actually has a reaction to Hook's death in the AU, he is shocked when Hook is stabbed to death.  Which actually brings me to something else regarding Henry and what Emma said in Rocky Road about losing everyone.  Henry has actually gone through the same thing Emma has gone through.  Graham whom he like died.  Walsh who was part of Henry's life for 8 months turned out to not be who he was and I mean we know that he and Walsh spent some time together as per dialogue.  And then Neal died.  So that's like 3 people who were important in Henry's life who left.  

 

When everyone was brought back from the AU, it seemed to me that Henry already knew that Hook was alive because when Emma hugs him and then runs off to check up on Hook, Henry looks like he's about to say something but she just takes off.

Seconding this. We don't actually get to see Henry's reaction to Hook being alive back in SB. While we get a lot of contradictory stuff on screen (with all the characters), I prefer to think that Henry has some positive feelings for Hook. We do know that Hook was concerned about Henry, per dialogue. I hate to think it's all one-sided.

[Shanna Marie]

Henry has actually gone through the same thing Emma has gone through.  Graham whom he like died.  Walsh who was part of Henry's life for 8 months turned out to not be who he was and I mean we know that he and Walsh spent some time together as per dialogue.  And then Neal died.  So that's like 3 people who were important in Henry's life who left.

That's why I wish they would do more with Hook and Henry. Hook is Henry's best connection to his father, the person who can tell him about his father when he was close to the age Henry is now. Yeah, there's Rumple, but he doesn't seem to have bothered bonding with Henry over Bae, and Hook has. Before his memories were restored, Henry mentioned liking spending that time with Hook to learn about his father, even though it made him feel both closer and further away. Henry has been so desperate for family, you'd think he'd glom on to that connection. And maybe that's been happening offscreen, since they have been spending days sailing. It just would have been nice to get maybe one scene of them sailing so we'd have a sense of what that was like. But this is probably where we need to paste that quote about needing time to focus on Regina's story.

[Dianthus]

I would desperately like to see something like this:

 

Snowing and Hook go up to Regina about some Saviorish thing - she snaps at them, saying, "I'm not Emma."

Charming mutters: "You can say that again."

Regina looks offended, opens her whiny yap.

Hook (in a dangerously silky tone of voice) interrupts with "Go on, Highness, tell us how hard this is for you."

Regina glares at him "I'm not afraid of you."

Hook smiles a wolfish grin.

"Well then, I suppose that makes us even."

 

Sadly, this will never happen.

[KingOfHearts]

It's safe to say that Once fails at pulling off well-written romances in many respects. There are a few bright spots, such as Captain Swan, some of Snowing, the blossoming love in Skin Deep and then Rumple/Cora. Those were all done in the smooth fairy tale fashion. Problems arise when they attempt to replicate their successes (like Outlaw Queen) or begin pandering ships from the fandom.

 

It's been discussed in depth already, but sex is a glaring issue. Rape is completely white-washed, costuming deems sex appeal as evil, and when sex is shown it's almost always rape or adultery. There's been only one instance of a more healthy portrayal, and that was Snowing in S2. But even though, it was mostly just played for laughs. They didn't do it to reaffirm their marriage or connect them deeper as a couple. It was more about making tacos. I'm not saying I want to start seeing a bunch of bed scenes, just that when something is sexual in nature it shouldn't always be shown in a negative light.

 

The other elephant in the room is equality between two partners of a relationship. One is almost always more dominate than the other, to the extent that it's disturbing in some cases. Some characters are written strictly as love interests and nothing else. Because of this, they become doting servants who can't think for themselves. Robin, Belle and dare I say even Charming all seem to be tacked on to their respective lover. Their centrics are often given little thought and they seem to always make decisions based on what their partner is feeling. They act more like possessions than real characters with real emotions.

 

I wish one of the couples would either experience a death or break up permanently. For every single couple to have a happy ending even in alarmingly unhealthy relationships gives no risk. No matter how many times they experience angst, they always get back together again... particularly with Outlaw Queen and Rumpbelle. Marian comes and needs Robin to move away with her? Nope! It was Zelena all along! Rumple sacrificing himself to save the town? Belle kicking him out for good? Nope! He's back in the next couple of episodes! Water under the bridge! Maybe some of the romance would feel earned if there were any reason to believe a split-up was possible.

 

The abuse of the True Love concept makes the angst pointless. You get a happy ending, and you get a happy ending! Everybody gets a happy ending!

Edited July 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

I wish one of the couples would either experience a death or break up permanently.

Out of the four main couples, I think both Rumbelle and Captain Swan could go this route, especially the first one. Rumbelle is terribly dysfunctional, and I don't think Rumple deserves a happy ending. About CS, it's just my negativity talking, and the fact that my favourites tend to suffer a lot.

Edited July 26, 2015 by RadioGirl27