Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[stealinghome]

And b), they like or dislike Hook and Emma equally and therefore the story isn't framed in a way that emphasizes one character over another.

I think this is the key, really. The writers are equally as (dis)interested in Hook as Emma--in fact, I think they're probably more interested in Hook than Emma on the whole. This is a striking contrast to Rumbelle (Belle only exists for Rumpel) and Outlaw Queen (Robin is an extension of Regina). Even Charming isn't immune; it's taken him two seasons and Ginnifer Goodwin's pregnancy to be allowed outside the Snow sphere.

[Shanna Marie]

According to imdb, Hook appeared in 22 episodes before he and Emma even kissed in Neverland. That's an entire full season's worth (or I guess two half seasons now...) of character development before the writers decided to get him with Emma. And still, that Neverland kiss was just a kiss, they haven't even started dating yet and it's already Season 4.

That's actually probably a big reason the relationship seems to be working better. They took their time developing it, and they still don't seem to be where Regina and Robin supposedly were before Marian showed up.

 

They didn't even bother developing either side of the Regina and Robin relationship. They just stopped at "pixie dust said they're soulmates" and declared them to be together. They haven't bothered showing what it is about them that makes them soulmates. You'd think the idea of soulmates would be that these two people are perfectly compatible and would connect easily, but we've seen nothing of the sort. It's not even like Hook taking one look at Emma and being able to figure her out because he's coming from a similar emotional place. You'd think soulmates would be eerily in sync, finishing each other's sentences, showing up at the same place, liking the same things, agreeing on things. I've had friendships like that, where you just click with someone instantly and realize you've read all the same books, love the same movies and watch the same TV shows, and after one conversation you feel like you've known them your whole life. That's what I expect of soulmates, and that's not what they showed us at all. She seems to only like him because she saw the tattoo (and didn't like him until then) and he just seems to like the way her ass looks in a tight skirt. If they were going to do an insta-love relationship instead of developing it over time, we needed that eerie sense of "click" where they just connected the moment they met. Seeing the tattoo should have been an "oh, that explains it" moment after maybe being flustered by finding someone so unlikely to be so oddly in sync with her, not the "well, I guess I'll give it a shot since apparently it's guaranteed to work out" moment for Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Regina sees the tattoo and right away goes and gives Robin her heart to keep.  I know it was supposed to be romantic, but for me it was a WTF moment especially with Zelena running around and wanting that heart.

[Rumsy4]

If they were going to do an insta-love relationship instead of developing it over time, we needed that eerie sense of "click" where they just connected the moment they met. Seeing the tattoo should have been an "oh, that explains it" moment after maybe being flustered by finding someone so unlikely to be so oddly in sync with her, not the "well, I guess I'll give it a shot since apparently it's guaranteed to work out" moment for Regina.

This is where showing them connecting in the missing year would have been helpful. They could have had Regina being conflicted over Henry's loss, and the strange connection she feels towards Robin. Heck--a scene where Robin came upon Regina playing with Roland, and them connecting over parenthood would have been nice. Then it would not have felt out of the blue when Regina sees his tattoo in Storybrooke and decides to literally give Robin her heart, and start an insta relationship.

[Shanna Marie]

I think this is the key, really. The writers are equally as (dis)interested in Hook as Emma--in fact, I think they're probably more interested in Hook than Emma on the whole. This is a striking contrast to Rumbelle (Belle only exists for Rumpel) and Outlaw Queen (Robin is an extension of Regina).

It's possibly a combination. They do seem to like writing for Hook (or for Colin) in a way that makes them want to give him a big emotional journey, which is different from the way they love Regina as though she's an actual person and want only the best for her. They're a lot more objective with Hook and willing to let Emma call him out on his behavior and his past instead of sweeping it under the rug. His dark days are part of him and part of his journey, and Emma getting to see him turn himself around is a big part of their relationship. Since they tend to avoid dealing with Regina's evil, Robin's view of her seems inaccurate and incomplete, which makes their relationship seem shallow. I think it also helps that Emma and Hook is a relationship they seem to have come up with themselves, as opposed to the Rumple/Belle thing which apparently wasn't planned to be a big, ongoing plot and which ended up being developed due to fan outcry. And they gave themselves a chance to test the waters with Hook and Emma before they started seriously going there to see how the characters worked together. They got a lot of chemistry testing before they really moved into those waters, and they'd more or less kept their options open until they killed Neal. Regina and Robin were ordained soulmates before the characters and actors had ever so much as shared a scene, so they were stuck with the pairing even if it didn't click and they had no idea how to write them together, then I think they also relied too heavily on that pixie-dust crutch -- they're meant to be, so they don't have to bother doing any development.

[KAOS Agent]

I have a question about Rumbelle and True Love. On this show, one of the biggest things about having True Love is that that person makes you the best person you can be. I'm curious as to how this applies to Belle. How does Rumpel make her a better person? To be clear, this is not meant to be taken as an attack on that relationship. I'm seriously asking how loving Rumpel has made Belle into the best version of herself.

[KingOfHearts]

 

How does Rumpel make her a better person?

 

Very good question. From what I've been told through the dialog and seen on screen, Rumple gives Belle a goal. She wanted to be a hero, and because of him she gets to be one. To her, she's making a sacrifice for everyone else by "curing" or "pacifying" the beast. This causes her to be on her best behavior. It's not good enough for me, but that seems to be what the show is going with.

[Rumsy4]

 

How does Rumpel make her a better person?

 

 

From what I've been told through the dialog and seen on screen, Rumple gives Belle a goal. She wanted to be a hero, and because of him she gets to be one....It's not good enough for me, but that seems to be what the show is going with.

 

I think that is what the Show is going for too. I wonder why I'm supposed to think they still have True Love, though. Rumpel blocked her curse-breaking kiss back in the Enchanted Forest, and he was willing to let her die along with everyone when he thought Neal was killed by Tamara. He still lies to her and is in control of their relationship. Belle is so blindly naive when it comes to him. Didn't Rumpel say True Love was a delicate flame that needed to be nurtured? Rumbelle doesn't fit that bill, IMO. But clearly Adam and Eddy still want us to think they love each other truly. 

[Amerilla]

How does Rumpel make her a better person?

 

Complicated question, actually.

 

Look at the show's other fully-certified "True Love" pairing. Is Snow a "better" person for being with Charming? Is Charming a "better" person for being with Snow? Or is it not about the individual at all - i.e., are Snow and Charming simply stronger together than they would be if they were apart?

 

In terms of Belle in particular, there isn't much space for before-and-after comparison. We know almost nothing of her life before she met Rumpel, and we haven't really seen all that much of her since. Have she and Rumpel actually spent enough time together for betterment to take place? (They didn't see each other for 30 years after "Skin Deep" and they've spent far more time apart than together post-Curse-break.)

 

Then there's the problem of defining what it means to be "a better person."  For Belle, the most important thing seems to be choosing her own path in life - even more than being a "hero."  It seems to me that in S3, she became more certain that Rumpel was the right path (much more so than in S2, where she did have periodic doubts, before getting sidetracked with a half-season's worth of amnesia.) Her growth - or her betterment, if you prefer - rests in how she tackles the obstacles that are coming now that they are fully together in a committed, long-term situation.

[stealinghome]

For Belle, the most important thing seems to be choosing her own path in life - even more than being a "hero."

I agree that the show hasn't executed it well (shockingly), but I do think that this is what the show wants us to take away, at least, from how Rumbelle benefits Belle. Mostly I look to 'The Outsider' for this, but imo what the show was trying to say was that her time with Rumpel has given/gives Belle the courage to step out into the real world and do the things she's dreamed about doing/read about and be assertive. It seems like they want us to think pre-Rumpel Belle was a dreamer but too scared/shy to go out into the world (and perhaps not given the opportunity to as well), but now she has the confidence and self-possession to step forward and do that.

 

That's what I usually take away from how Rumbelle is supposed to make Belle better, anyway. Whether it's executed well--and how it jives with the other problematic aspects of Rumbelle--is a different question.

 

ETA: Also, it's interesting--I think it's pretty clear how Charming makes Snow into her best self: he stops her from sinking into suicidal depression at the slightest provocation and gives her the confidence to do things like rule a kingdom or fight Regina when she has doubts or just wants to run away. He's totally the optimist in that relationship. (He also, sometimes, can act as a brake on her worst moments of dumbassery.) I do have a harder time pinpointing how Snow makes Charming better, however, but I think maybe it's a version of Belle's insofar as, like, I don't think Charming had many aspirations or much ambition (in the good sense of the term?) when he was a shepherd? He would've been totally content to live on his farm for the rest of his life, even though he obviously had much more to offer to the world; basically until he ran away with Snow, he was still actively avoiding the full measure of his princely life. So maybe part of what Snow has done for him is helped him grow into a leader and helped him dream bigger? Given him bigger goals that ask/allow/force him to develop the good qualities that otherwise would've lain dormant?

Edited September 11, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

But in "The Outsider" Belle had already left Rumpel and was being this courageous person without him or even ever expecting to be with him again. So it's like living with him gave her the courage to stand up for herself, gain some self confidence and go out and kick some ass using her brains rather than brawn, but it doesn't seem like them being together as a couple is what makes her this way. Not if she remains that way or even grows stronger after the relationship is supposed to be over. They could break up tomorrow and I don't think she'd revert to who she was before whereas other True Love couples do seem to revert to a lesser version when broken up. 

 

It's funny because it's often said that Belle is Rumpel's leash and that's what makes him better, but Rumpel is still a villain while with Belle, he just does his misdeeds behind her back. However, outside of his heinous acts, being with her does seem to ground him. Look at how he calmed down from Crazy!Rumpel when they went to see him in his castle while caged by Zelena. Being with Belle helps him in ways that are not necessarily tied to his morality. I just don't see that with Belle because they have portrayed her as acting in this better version with or without him.

[Mari]

Brought over from the Regina thread:

We do not know Regina killed Marian. So if the assumption was that Regina did kill her, in a public execution. Then it would also be reasonable that someone in town could tell Robin a woman matching his wife's description died in the public square. Killed by the Evil Queen.

To assume Regina killed Marian and Robin did not know means... he had no idea, how she died, where she died or who killed her. How would he even know she was dead?

 

If Marian was not killed by Regina that night--she escaped--only to be reunited with Robin, that makes Robin one of the show's truly worst people.

 

A Marian that was released, to be reunited with Robin, only to die later?  That would mean that Robin knew exactly who Regina was, and everything that she'd done to Marian.  It would mean that the one of the earliest conversations  he had with Regina--the woman he knew had abused his wife--was him making a pass at her for doing things like abusing his wife.  (Yet again, the bold and audacious comment haunts us.)

 

So, we're left with:

a)  Regina killed Marian in the original timeline.  Robin/Regina . . um, yuck.

b)  Regina was going to kill Marian in the original timeline, but Marian escaped to be reunited with Robin.  Robin/Regina . . . extra yuck.

 

Is there a feasible way to write Robin/Regina out of this corner?  One that doesn't leave the relationship seeming rather distatsteful?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Mari

[Crimson Belle]

Even if Marian escaped and somehow died of a hangnail or something before she could reunite, then it's also just as yucky if Robin finds out and still even considers Regina because intent matters, and Regina intended to kill Marian. And that would make Robin evil.

[Curio]

Is there a feasible way to write Robin/Regina out of this corner?

Sure. Have them act like actual mature adults who recognize the situation they're in, agree it's for the best that they never speak of their one week relationship again, and part ways amicably. Robin owes it to his son and to himself to try and re-start his family with his wife, and if Regina actually wants to redeem herself, then she'll copy Hook's line and say "for the sake of the boy, I'm going to let his parents have a fair shot."

[kili]

A Marian that was released, to be reunited with Robin, only to die later? That would mean that Robin knew exactly who Regina was, and everything that she'd done to Marian.

 

Imagine watching the "You know, I've heard many stories about the great and terrible Evil Queen, but from this angle the Evil moniker seems like somewhat of an overstatement. Bold and audacious, perhaps, but not evil" (i.e "you have a nice a$$, you want to shag?") scene if Marian did escape Regina and return to Robin. How big of a scuzzball would he be then? "Sure, you put a bag over my wife's head, dragged her from village to village to terrorize her and them, mocked her pleading for help, sentenced her to death and locked her in your dungeon, but that was just 'bold and audacious, not evil' ". A$$hole.

 

Maybe Robin is secretly the evil one. Run Marian, run (and take that adorable moppet, Roland, with you).

 

It's better for Robin's character that Marian never returned to him after being captured by Regina.

Edited September 11, 2014 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

I'm pretty sure they wrote themselves into a corner when they decided to bring Marian in the fray.  And I just cannot wait too see what contrived way they will use to write themselves out of it.  I still don't get their choices as far as the missing year goes (not writing them as falling in love) and Regina deciding to pursue this because of the tattoo.  There's nothing organic about this.

[Amerilla]

Didn't Rumpel say True Love was a delicate flame that needed to be nurtured?

 

Notexactlyy. In "Skin Deep," while he still thinks Belle has been killed by her father, Gold tells David Nolan that love is like a delicate flame and once it's gone, it's gone forever. Then he goes to beat the snot out of Mo.

 

Mostly I look to 'The Outsider' for this, but imo what the show was trying to say was that her time with Rumpel has given/gives Belle the courage to step out into the real world and do the things she's dreamed about doing/read about and be assertive. It seems like they want us to think pre-Rumpel Belle was a dreamer but too scared/shy to go out into the world (and perhaps not given the opportunity to as well), but now she has the confidence and self-possession to step forward and do that....

 

...I do have a harder time pinpointing how Snow makes Charming better, however, but I think maybe it's a version of Belle's insofar as, like, I don't think Charming had many aspirations or much ambition (in the good sense of the term?) when he was a shepherd? He would've been totally content to live on his farm for the rest of his life, even though he obviously had much more to offer to the world; basically until he ran away with Snow, he was still actively avoiding the full measure of his princely life. So maybe part of what Snow has done for him is helped him grow into a leader and helped him dream bigger? Given him bigger goals that ask/allow/force him to develop the good qualities that otherwise would've lain dormant?

 

I think with both David and Belle, the show has played it both ways. Part of it is, as you say, hinting that having this other person in their lives has given them a big nudge towards their potential, but I think they've also shown the origin of their rise to potential was situational. Both characters are intriniscally heroic and seize the day when the opportunity is presented to them - David in killing the dragon when it was George's men who were supposed to do it for him, Belle in going with "the Beast" to save her people over everyone's objections - and those choices led them to their significant other.

 

(Come to think of it, Rumpel was the catalysts for both situations, wasn't he?)

 

I think it's pretty clear how Charming makes Snow into her best self: he stops her from sinking into suicidal depression at the slightest provocation and gives her the confidence to do things like rule a kingdom or fight Regina when she has doubts or just wants to run away. He's totally the optimist in that relationship. (He also, sometimes, can act as a brake on her worst moments of dumbassery.)

 

And that's the same fuction Belle generally has in the Rumpel relationship - made infinitely harder in this case by the fact that Rumpel in his non-cursed form was already more damaged and insecure than Snow on her absolute worst day, and in his cursed form has to work to latch on to normal human emotion.

[RadioGirl27]

I think they just wanted a boyfriend for Regina. Snow has Charming, Emma has Hook, even Belle has Rumple, of course they beloved Regina deserved a boyfriend and an "epic" love story. But that was it. They didn't have a plan other than that, so they have come up with this absurdity.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is there a feasible way to write Robin/Regina out of this corner?  One that doesn't leave the relationship seeming rather distatsteful?

 

What comes to my mind is a contrived reason Robin didn't know Regina killed Marian. Perhaps Marian got arrested in Sherwood Forest, then Snow rescued her brought her to Regina's kingdom? Could Marian be the person from the other forest that taught her how to use a bow? These are weak possibilities I know, but I can guarantee the writers are going to go for something just as funky.

 

I really don't buy that Robin didn't know about Regina being her captor from what we've been given thus far. I have a feeling there are some missing puzzle pieces that hopefully S4 will fill in.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Perhaps Marian got arrested in Sherwood Forest, then Snow rescued her brought her to Regina's kingdom? Could Marian be the person from the other forest that taught her how to use a bow?

But Snow didn't seem to know her at all and they didn't reunite like friends (the way Snow and Ruby did) after Snow was debugged following the burning at the stake. It seemed more like Marian was a loyal subject who believed in Snow's innocence but who hadn't actually met her.

 

Robin just believed Marian to be dead, and he thought she died in something related to a job. It didn't sound like he'd ever seen a body, just that she'd never come home, so he presumed she was lost. A reasonable guess would be that she got caught by the guards while doing something job-related (though perhaps not arrested for something job-related) and got in big trouble when she refused to deny Snow's innocence. Since Robin didn't know what happened, it was a reasonable assumption that she got caught for the job thing and therefore it was his fault. Meanwhile, she was hiding her identity to protect her family, so no one knew who the executed/imprisoned woman really was. They wouldn't bother distributing woodcuts of the executions of random peasants, so how would anyone have known what happened to her?

 

Robin owes it to his son and to himself to try and re-start his family with his wife, and if Regina actually wants to redeem herself, then she'll copy Hook's line and say "for the sake of the boy, I'm going to let his parents have a fair shot."

Yeah, that's about the only way out for Regina if she's supposed to be "good," and for Robin, about the best he can do is say, "I can tell you're trying to do better, so keep at it, but bye. I can't be with you." I don't care how redeemed she is, the person who imprisoned your wife and who is probably the main reason she was out of the picture for years is on the "do not go there" list. There's no way Robin can continue any relationship with Regina now that he knows what happened to Marian without being a major creep, and there's no way Regina can continue to pursue a relationship with Robin without being a total psycho. A good person in her position would be horrified and freaked-out by what she did and feel like she dodged a bullet when the timeline was altered so she didn't actually get to pull off the execution, and probably would be sickened by the idea of being with Robin after her role in what happened. But this is Regina, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

As for the "making each other better" thing, with both Belle and David, their respective relationships have worked to drag them out of their comfort zones. Both of them had unrealized potential that might not have ever been realized if they'd stayed where they were. With Belle, I'm not entirely sure that's a totally good thing, considering the relationship she's in -- she just needed a nudge out of her life and didn't need the relationship, which may end up bringing her down. But we know David wanted true love, even before he met Snow. He wasn't going to be happy with the relationships that were available to him or marrying someone just to merge two farms into one that might be a little more prosperous. He might have been content as a farmer, but his courage and leadership ability might have been wasted. I don't think he'd have ever stepped into the "prince" role without Snow. It was something he wore very uncomfortably before they got together, and then it seemed a lot more natural.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But Snow didn't seem to know her at all and they didn't reunite like friends (the way Snow and Ruby did) after Snow was debugged following the burning at the stake. It seemed more like Marian was a loyal subject who believed in Snow's innocence but who hadn't actually met her.

 

That doesn't explain why Marian was in Regina's kingdom though, and not Sherwood's.

 

 

Robin just believed Marian to be dead, and he thought she died in something related to a job. It didn't sound like he'd ever seen a body, just that she'd never come home, so he presumed she was lost.

 

From the direct dialog, I think Robin was there when Marian got captured. He said he, "Put her in harm's way during a job". The keyword there is "during".

 

 

They wouldn't bother distributing woodcuts of the executions of random peasants, so how would anyone have known what happened to her?

 

Regina made sure the peasants knew exactly what was happening - she toured villages to make sure everyone knew what happened to people who worked for Snow White. I'm pretty sure the peasants knew who she was since her husband was their poster boy.

 

The connection missing with the Robin stuff is how could he not know Regina was connected to Marian's death if she was arrested by Regina or her men? The job would have had to been in Regina's kingdom instead of Sherwood Forest, but then Robin would have known.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

That doesn't explain why Marian was in Regina's kingdom though, and not Sherwood's.

Are they separate, though? Robin and Snow were side-by-side on Wanted posters, and it was a quick ride from Regina's castle to Sherwood Forest when David went to get the plant that would help him overcome his fears (which Robin told him grew in Sherwood Forest). Sherwood Forest may just be a forest in Regina's kingdom, though it really is hard to tell what, exactly, the political divisions are in that world. They had King Midas, who you'd think would have been lord of his own kingdom, acting all deferential to Regina. Then there's all the walking back and forth between castles in a single day. I'm suspecting they haven't drawn a map, and the political divisions will end up being what the story requires.

 

Regina made sure the peasants knew exactly what was happening - she toured villages to make sure everyone knew what happened to people who worked for Snow White.

But that doesn't mean the general public would have any idea what happened to any particular person. They might have had the heralds read a proclamation about executing traitors, and Regina might have paraded Marian through a few villages, but in a world without mass communication, her fate could have remained entirely unknown outside those villages, especially without a name to go with her.

 

So it's entirely possible for her to have been executed for supporting Snow White when she was caught while on a job without Robin ever knowing what really happened to her, and the fact that she never came home from the job made Robin believe that she died on the job. And that doesn't change the fact that Robin's an idiot for dating a woman who had him on Wanted posters and who was known as the Evil Queen or the fact that it would be even dumber and more creepy if he learns from Marian what really happened to her and he is even the slightest bit torn about which woman he should go with. (Hint: not the woman who imprisoned his wife.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

Are they separate, though? Robin and Snow were side-by-side on Wanted posters, and it was a quick ride from Regina's castle to Sherwood Forest when David went to get the plant that would help him overcome his fears (which Robin told him grew in Sherwood Forest).

 

Neighboring kingdoms perhaps? I just think it's weird that Robin never connected the dots that Regina was involved with her death. If Robin lived near Regina, then he would have not only heard tales about her, but he would've seen her evil firsthand. Tyrants like her are his enemy, you'd think she'd be easy to see on his radar.

 

 

 

And that doesn't change the fact that Robin's an idiot for dating a woman who had him on Wanted posters

I agree. Outlaw Queen is like Robin dating Prince John. It's just not believable. Calling Regina "bold and audacious" is a big slap in the face to all her victims, really. It's watering down all the oppression she put them under.

 

 

Then there's all the walking back and forth between castles in a single day. I'm suspecting they haven't drawn a map, and the political divisions will end up being what the story requires.

 

That is why I question things like Robin's knowledge of what Regina has done. The writers leave stuff like this blank, and I have to fill it in or it drives my brain crazy. I feel like I have to make assumptions for a lot of stuff to remotely make sense!

 

Not trying to nick-pick your posts by the way, Shanna Marie. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around Outlaw Queen and the Triangle of Doom. :)

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

From the direct dialog, I think Robin was there when Marian got captured. He said he, "Put her in harm's way during a job". The keyword there is "during".

I don't think the fact that Robin "put her in harm's way during a job" automatically means he was there when she was captured. The plan for that particular job might well have called for her to go off as a decoy, for example, and meet them at a rendezvous point later, only she never showed and he therefore assumed she'd been killed. (It also might mean that she, I don't know, was holding a shield protecting both of them and got shot through the shoulder and fell off a castle wall and he assumed she died but she didn't. We just don't know.)

 

In fact, I find his wording oddly circuitous and always have.

[KingOfHearts]

 

We just don't know.

I agree, my big point is - I don't buy for a split second that Robin is as naive about Regina's past as his "bold and audacious" comment suggests. If he lived in Regina's kingdom, or close to it, then I doubt he'd be dating her. But since he is, and probably does live near Regina, he's a genuine creep. I hope not only Regina finds someone better, but Marian too.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I agree, my big point is - I don't buy for a split second that Robin is as naive about Regina's past as his "bold and audacious" comment suggests. If he lived in Regina's kingdom, or close to it, then I doubt he'd be dating her.

KingOfHearts, would you mind clarifying?

 

Do you think Robin completely knows about Regina's past--but lived far enough away it didn't personally affect him, (until Marian's capture and death sentence?), so he didn't care?

 

Or did you mean something else?

 

Edited to add:

Thanks very much for the answer.  And, yes, if that's the case definite creep.

 

Does that make him a better match for Regina?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

Do you think Robin completely knows about Regina's past--but lived far enough away it didn't personally affect him, (until Marian's capture and death sentence?), so he didn't care?

 

If Robin lived near or in Regina's kingdom, he would know firsthand about her tyranny. He wouldn't have any excuse for dating a psychopath. If he had just heard tales about Regina, as he says, then he could be thinking they're just hyperbole or embellished. Which, from the farmhouse scene, seems to be the case. But since Sherwood seems to be in the same area as Regina, it doesn't make sense to me because his cause was to oppose dictators like Regina and stand up for the poor.

 

Sorry, I should have have been more clear. :)

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Well, I think the big problem is just that Robin's actions don't make a lick of sense no matter which way you cut them. Because he's not a character; he's a cardboard cutout that the writers maneuver around the plot chessboard to achieve whatever desired plot effect they want.

[kili]

That doesn't explain why Marian was in Regina's kingdom though, and not Sherwood's.

 

Perhaps it was Regina and/her guards that were outside of her kingdom. We've seen Regina march in uninvited to an engagement party in another kingdom (MIdas's) when both of the couples were from distinctly different kingdom (we know George's kingdom was separate from Regina because one of the deals that Regina made with Rumple was to stop trade between her kingdom and his to put him at a financial disadvantage). At that party, her guards seemed to have free reign to go where they liked and shoot arrows at people. They fought a battle with one of the "guests" and arrested another one. Midas didn't say "Boo".

 

I suspect this was not a unique occurance. I also think that the Regina's Knights were outside the kingdom when they chased Snow to the cliffside (I think they may have even mentioned it).

 

My head cannon is that Marian had been in the middle of some "job" with Robin.. The Black Knights were on Snow's trail, Marian saw them chasing her and Marian did something to thwart them. That's enough to get you arrested especially when the guards have the extra motivation that failure gets you killed by your boss. They dragged (perhaps over kingdom lines) back to Regin and the rest is what we saw.

 

Robin either knew what Regina did to Marian back then or he does now. For the sake of the woman he once loved and his son, he needs to put his dating life on hold and give his marriage a shot. It's not like they separated because they did not get along.

[stealinghome]

For me, it's not even about Robin giving his marriage another shot. I could understand it if he didn't. But I just think, if his interest in Regina doesn't immediately die/he ever looks in her direction again, then he's an absolutely disgusting, repellent human being. Out of respect for basic human decency, he should never look twice in Regina's direction again. Not when she's the one who, in the alternate timeline, murdered his wife (or was going to murder her) and left his son motherless.

Edited September 11, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

But I just think, if his interest in Regina doesn't immediately die/he ever looks in her direction again, then he's an absolutely disgusting, repellent human being.

 

Sadly, I believe Robin will be going back and forth between women for the sake of drama. If he had any morals at all, he'd ditch Regina in an instant and go straight for his wife. But seeing how this is Once Upon a Time, that's not happening. Imagine the moment when he finds out Regina did kill Marian, then still finds his new girlfriend hard to get away from. The whole thing is sick is what it is. Bringing Marian into the picture was a really bad move, because it's going to stink no matter what the outcome is. No one truly wins - not even Regina.

 

This is a very Once thing to do - give a big "twist" that cuts off something earlier than you'd expect, and then they deal with the aftermath very poorly. Cora's death gave us Snow's black heart. Going Home gave us the underwhelming Missing Year. This Marian twist was to put Outlaw Queen shippers on the edges of their seats for S4. You can bet there will be a trite love triangle situation going on to follow it.

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The really crazy thing about that godawful "bold and audacious" scene is that because of the memory curse, his last knowledge of Regina should have been as the person who cast the spell that left his land a devastated wasteland ravaged by ogres. He wasn't around to see her doing anything even remotely good. She's just wearing different clothes. His reaction should have been along the lines of Marian's -- shock, and treating her like a dangerous villain. He knew absolutely nothing about her at that time. That's where it would have been more interesting if they'd actually developed a relationship in the Enchanted Forest during the missing year -- if they'd had that soulmates clicking thing happen after he got to know her well enough to know she wasn't all-out evil anymore (though still unrepentant, grrrr) -- and then reset when the curse hit and had to do it all over again, so there would have been some irony factor in knowing that when he was all "Get away from my son, you bitch!" in Storybrooke, they had been lovers in the missing year.

 

And I just realized something: Roland is older than Emma is! Well, he was born first, since he had to have been born before Snow and Charming met.

[KingOfHearts]

 

if they'd had that soulmates clicking thing happen after he got to know her well enough to know she wasn't all-out evil anymore (though still unrepentant, grrrr)

 

If Robin had worked out the Evil Queen stuff with Regina, then the Marian stuff wouldn't as sickening. If he knew Regina was redeemed (which she isn't, but whatever) with all certainty, then OQ would have a fighting chance. But since he doesn't care about all that, we're stuck with ew.

 

Robin: "You could be a psycho maniac who kills children, but you're a great kisser! Even without your heart!"

Edited September 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Crimson Belle]

For me, it's not even about Robin giving his marriage another shot. I could understand it if he didn't. But I just think, if his interest in Regina doesn't immediately die/he ever looks in her direction again, then he's an absolutely disgusting, repellent human being. Out of respect for basic human decency, he should never look twice in Regina's direction again. Not when she's the one who, in the alternate timeline, murdered his wife (or was going to murder her) and left his son motherless.

Excellent point.  I'll add that if Robin does stay with Regina, I will truly believe for the first time that they are soulmates.

[KAOS Agent]

 

The really crazy thing about that godawful "bold and audacious" scene is that because of the memory curse, his last knowledge of Regina should have been as the person who cast the spell that left his land a devastated wasteland ravaged by ogres. He wasn't around to see her doing anything even remotely good. She's just wearing different clothes.

 

I think the point of that comment was meant to show us that Robin didn't see the Evil Queen when he looked at Regina. It's big wish fulfillment for Regina that someone do so and it was supposed to be quite romantic. That this was followed by Regina denying her evilness and playing it all off as the name serving her well by reputation not real action made it really quite gross. Denial of mass murder is not generally what I consider as something romantic or flirtatious.

 

Prior to the Marian reveal, the thing I disliked most about Robin/Regina was that it completely ignored all of her past actions. It's great that she's turned a corner and is working to be a better person, but having a partner who understands your past, accepts that you've changed (or at least are trying) and helps on the path to betterment is the way the relationship needed to go. To have Robin act like he either didn't know jack about her past or just completely ignore it makes him look like a total idiot. And it's not particularly healthy for Regina either. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think the point of that comment was meant to show us that Robin didn't see the Evil Queen when he looked at Regina. It's big wish fulfillment for Regina that someone do so and it was supposed to be quite romantic.

 

If that's something they want for Regina, they should have picked someone other than Robin Hood. They need someone who's had no connection to her whatsoever, preferably from a realm that happens to not be the Enchanted Forest. I can totally imagine a dark grey character finding out about her past and deciding to stay with her anyhow.

 

I think she can find someone more available than the person whose wife she killed.

Edited September 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

If Robin lived near or in Regina's kingdom, he would know firsthand about her tyranny. He wouldn't have any excuse for dating a psychopath. If he had just heard tales about Regina, as he says, then he could be thinking they're just hyperbole or embellished. Which, from the farmhouse scene, seems to be the case. But since Sherwood seems to be in the same area as Regina, it doesn't make sense to me because his cause was to oppose dictators like Regina and stand up for the poor.

 

The problem is related to world-building, or lackthereof, since everywhere seems really close together, and it's very unclear the actual distance and the political relations among the various kingdoms.  I'll post on this in All-Seasons I guess.

 

 

 

If that's something they want for Regina, they should have picked someone other than Robin Hood. They need someone who's had no connection to her whatsoever, preferably from a realm that happens to not be the Enchanted Forest. I can totally imagine a dark grey character finding out about her past and deciding to stay with her anyhow.

 

They can remedy it with their usual not-so-subtle retcon.

 

A&E's Memo for Writers of Robin Hood/Marion Flashback Episode:

 

Hello dear writer.  You have been selected to write the very special Robin Hood/Marion origin episode.  The episode can be whatever, as long as you include the following elements:

 

1. This episode will explore a time period that we haven't really spent enough time on, the time period where Regina (oops, I mean The Evil Queen) is hunting Snow White.  I'll have to whip myself for that slip later.

 

2. Early in the episode, have someone mention The Evil Queen to Robin Hood.  Show that Robin has NO idea who she is, since he has been deep deep deep underground on a job with Thumper the Rabbit and thus knows NOTHING about ANYTHING.  

 

3. Have Robin Hood meet Tinkerbelle pre-tavern.  Robin notices a Snow White poster on a tree and Tink warns him not to believe everything he sees, since The Evil Queen is really really really misunderstood and miserable, and Snow White destroyed her life.  Robin should come away seeing Regina as an underdog, just like him.  All the interesting characters on this show are underdogs, Regina, Rumple, Hook, ummm who else is on this show again?  No one important.  Oh whatever, let's move on.

 

4. Have Marion join Robin Hood in a job, and this is important - the job goes awry because of that destroyer of lives, the revealer of secrets - Snow White.  Have Snow find Marion injured, maybe about to bleed to death.  She moves Marion to her tree house, causing Robin Hood to think Marion had died, essentially destroying a family unit.  Snow's actions separated a mother from her child, which makes her more similar to Regina.  Marion wakes up and tells Snow not to get a doctor.  But Snow BETRAYS her and tells the doctor.  The doctor is an evil plant and tells Regina so basically, Marion getting put on death row is all Snow's fault.  She destroys lives and she's a murderer.  Did I say that already?   Oh wait a minute, did we forget to have Snow recognize Marion in the Season 3 finale?  If so, do something about that. Maybe Marion could have been wearing a Zorro costume.

 

5. The storyline in Storybrooke isn't important.  Maybe have the characters tracking someone.  That always kills time.  And they find nothing.  I guess that's pretty much a given, LOL.  Maybe create a situation where Regina has hypothermia (because Storybrooke is FROZEN... over) and Robin needs to strip down to give her body warmth and then Marion walks in.  I think I saw that once in an art film.  Or was it "Days of Our Lives".  Anyway, you can run with this.

 

Thanks, writer.  Can't wait to see the script for this!  

Edited September 12, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I think it's going to turn out that Robin did some mass murders in his past, and that's why he's okay with being with female Prince John. I can see no other reason for his inane blindness to Regina's evil activities. Is this Robin Hood so shallow that a nice ass makes him overlook mass murder, terrorization, and oppression? I just can't even with this pairing.

[patchwork]

You know the show could make recasting the actor work for them. The guy we see now isn't Robin Hood, it's Prince John trying to make up for the bad things he's done by stepping into the life of his one time nemesis with the help of a bit of magic. 

 

Squicky as all get out on the Robin/Marian front but it makes Outlaw Queen a lot better. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by patchwork

[Shanna Marie]

The guy we see now isn't Robin Hood, it's Prince John trying to make up for the bad things he's done by stepping into the life of his one time nemesis with the help of a bit of magic.

Funny, I caught the end of the Russell Crowe Robin Hood last night and found myself wondering if they'd stolen that plot of the imposter who became Robin Hood -- Robin Hood 1 was the "real" Robin and Roland's father. Then something happened to him and some guy who'd been out of the country for a while stepped into his role because it was critical that there be a Robin Hood. He and Marian were falling in love when she disappeared. So, he didn't experience all of Regina's Reign of Terror, maybe only arriving after the war when she'd been exiled, and while he loved Marian, it wasn't a total husband/wife bond yet. Marian was eager to get back to her son more than she was eager to get back to Robin.

 

It explains everything! (And if they're ripping off that movie, they have bigger problems than we realized.)

[Jean]

Does anybody really think that A&E see a problem with Robin marrying his baby momma's murderer? Seriously? A&E of the Snow has a dark heart and is a brat and therefore is to blame for everything and Regina and Graham is like a rom-com, those guys?

 

I just wish they would stop trying to make a "triangle" happen like it's the new fetch. Do they have some leftover issues from Lost? It's like they want the drama of a triangle but not real drama. They go around stamping "endgame" all over but then they want to throw in a fake 3rd wheel. The one character that theoretically they could've done a real triangle with, is closed up tighter than a clam that there's no way in hell she'd be opening up to 2 people at the same time. The only character left to do a triangle with is Henry. Imagine that. Shudders.

[myril]

The only character left to do a triangle with is Henry. Imagine that. Shudders.

Henry already has a sort of triangle though not of the romantic kind: two mothers he loves and who love him.

Edited September 12, 2014 by katusch

[Shanna Marie]

On the familial relationships front, someone made a comment about this show in another show's forum that had me thinking. This person gave up on Once Upon a Time because of the treatment of adoptive vs. biological families -- not just the issue of the adoptive mother being the Evil Queen, but the overall attitude that blood relationships are everything, other relationships are lesser, the "system" is automatically evil and worse than a biological family, and that the only "real" family unit is a mother, father and children. The example cited was the Hansel and Gretel episode, in which a stranger is essentially forced into taking in the biological children he's never even met because that's better for them than the "system."

 

I actually kind of give them a pass on the Hansel and Gretel story because they were showing us in the flashbacks that the father did love and want his kids, so we knew that the deadbeat dad in Storybrooke was a curse creation, continuing what Regina had done in the Enchanted Forest in separating him from his kids. We also knew that Regina actually had no plans to put the kids in the foster system. That was just an excuse to get them out of town, which would likely have killed them, and it was all about making Emma fail and look bad to Henry. And Emma is likely biased against the system because of her personal experiences, plus these kids weren't just going into foster care. They were being put in separate group homes in another state, and it was being separated that they wanted to avoid.

 

But otherwise, there is a bit of a point there. I'm sure foster care sucks in general because kids don't get put into the system under good circumstances, but I have friends who are foster parents, and they're very loving and committed. I've seen first-hand how kids can start to thrive once they're in a place where they feel safe and loved. Yes, there are bad foster homes, but not all of them, and in most cases, the foster homes are better than the homes the children were taken from. It may be different for kids who are truly orphaned or abandoned and never knew a family and who weren't taken from an abusive situation, but it's really not fair to paint the whole system as terrible. They seem to have tried to address the adoption community's concerns with the show by retconning Regina into a mother who always loved her son and by ignoring the emotional abuse from the first season, but they still keep showing that "blood is best" attitude.

 

There was Rumple being raised by the spinsters, who seemed to care for him and love him far more than his father ever did. They looked after him and encouraged him, and yet when he talked to Zelena about his upbringing, he made it sound like such a hell that the only good thing he could remember was meat pies. Actually, it seemed he was better off with them than he would have been with his father, but they seem to have downgraded that experience because it wasn't his "real" family. And there was Zelena, where it seemed like the mother who took her in loved her, but then they only showed the nasty adoptive father -- and of course, someone had to be nasty. I guess we couldn't have a loving family who really was better for her than Cora would have been. Her growing up in poverty and without the magical training Regina was getting still would have been enough to make her jealous, given her genetics. They also play the "but he's family!" card with Rumple, where they have to help Rumple, no matter how evil he's been and no matter how little a role he's played in the lives of his son and grandson, because he's a blood relation to Henry.

 

On the other hand, Regina gets a similar free pass on the basis of being Snow's stepmother and Henry's adoptive mother, so at least they aren't entirely going by blood. We had Ruby who was brought up by her grandmother, who's still a blood relative, but it's a non-conventional household that's not the standard mom/dad/kids. There have been plenty of truly awful biological parents on this show. I guess this is one reason I like my idea that the Jones family adopted young Killian after his father abandoned him because that would give us a positive adoptive family (since he and his brother were obviously close) that was clearly better than his biological family -- though on this show we'd get an arc in which his biological father showed up after being trapped in some spell, and that would be considered better than any adoptive family.

 

We never did find out what became of those Lost Boys they brought back after Emma promised to find them homes. Did people in Storybrooke adopt them, and where did they end up during the curse reversal? We saw at least one back in Storybrooke in curse 2, but we don't know what his living situation was.

[Jean]

I don't buy that at all Shanna. We've seen some "adoptive" families that were presented as happy and positive. Grace and her cursed parents, King George adored James, the Darlings loved Neal. Hell Wendy and her brothers sacrificed their lives for Neal and vice versa. It's probably the most selfless story presented on the show.

Can we count 3 biological families on this show that are without issues as those mentioned above? They've portrayed "blood" families a million times crappier than any adoptive ones. I don't think they've ever said blood is best or even implied it. What they stake a claim on is families but that's not defined by blood. Ruby and Snow consider each other as families or they did before Snow got a lobotomy.

As for "addressing the adoption community's concerns" that's all fine and good but when are they going to address the concerns of victims of violence? Or rape victims' concerns? Or child abuse victims' concerns? I side-eye their treatment of minority characters too.

[Shanna Marie]

Was Grace in Storybrooke actually adopted, or was her cursed identity born into that family? That would have been an interesting situation to follow up on -- a kid who'd spent the whole curse in one family and then what happened when the curse broke and she remembered her original family. Would she be torn between the two? Would they work out a shared custody arrangement?

 

With the Kathryn/David/Mary Margaret situation, Kathryn and David's whole marriage was fake memories, and she had someone of her own she preferred to be with. But what would have happened if a couple really had lived as a couple during the entire curse, but one of them was really married to someone else? Did any new relationships form during the curse, and if so, did they still feel "real" after the curse broke -- maybe more real than the relationship that existed 28 years ago? It's a pity that they never really dealt with the curse aftermath.

 

As for "addressing the adoption community's concerns" that's all fine and good but when are they going to address the concerns of victims of violence? Or rape victims' concerns? Or child abuse victims' concerns?

The only one I've seen raised directly to the writers in a public forum and that got a response was the one about adoption. They've denied that Graham and Regina was rape. I can't think of the domestic violence thing coming up with the writers, even though that's the one that bothers me the most (it's been a hot button for me ever since I served on the jury for a domestic violence case). There was the interviewer who brought up Rumple's past and the current situation with Rumple and Belle as a possible domestic violence situation with the actors, and they acted stunned, like they hadn't thought of it that way. I'm not aware of an interview in which someone pointed out the issue of Rumple murdering his wife for leaving him or Regina murdering her lover for wanting to break up with her as reflecting (and then glossing over) a very real problem in the real world.

 

I actually think that the show depicts a weird mix of "family is everything" and "families suck," though they do seem to put a premium on blood ties, and that emphasis has grown. They seem to have pretty much forgotten the "found family" Snow built for herself after having to flee her home (mostly due to actor availability, I suspect). I can certainly think of plenty of other reasons to break up with the show other than the depiction of families. I just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up when I saw it because I hadn't really thought about it in that way.

[Camera One]

Was Grace in Storybrooke actually adopted, or was her cursed identity born into that family? That would have been an interesting situation to follow up on -- a kid who'd spent the whole curse in one family and then what happened when the curse broke and she remembered her original family. Would she be torn between the two? Would they work out a shared custody arrangement?

 

These are the interesting, everyday stories which *could* have been told in S2.  But it's probably not exciting enough for the writers since it doesn't involve someone trying to kill them all.

 

I actually think that the show depicts a weird mix of "family is everything" and "families suck,"

 

It's a weird mix because it's random, based on the writers' random brainstorming of ideas with no coherent theme.  

[KAOS Agent]

Was Grace in Storybrooke actually adopted, or was her cursed identity born into that family? That would have been an interesting situation to follow up on -- a kid who'd spent the whole curse in one family and then what happened when the curse broke and she remembered her original family. Would she be torn between the two?

 

I believe Grace's family in Storybrooke were the neighbors she went to stay with when Jefferson went to Wonderland with Regina. Judging by the number of hats he'd made Jefferson was in Wonderland a very long time, so I've wondered just how strong a relationship she had formed with them prior to Storybrooke. Having her dad back would be really great, but those people were probably there for her during a very difficult time in her life and she'd have a very strong bond with them. I think there would definitely be some interesting feelings about it all. Can't have that though. Heaven forbid this show actually explore the fall out of the curse on the random innocent peasants who ended up as collateral damage. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Jean]

But that's kind of why they have to put this really artificial wedge in, at the same time, you know? Because the show doesn't want to/can't admit and deal with the really real problems Rumbelle currently has (or ought to have).

Bringing this over from the villains thread. This is also why they had to bring in a third wheel to create an artificial problem for Woegina and Robin. This all comes down to A&E not willing to admit that these relationships are flawed because of the people in them. With Woegina they're not willing to admit that Woegina is flawed but with Rumbelle while they can readily say that Rumple is flawed, Rumbelle is pure true love.

Compare that to Hook and Emma whose obstacles are all about who they are as people and how will they fit. It's all internal and not external. In fact externally, they work well together. Even when they tried to peddle Neal with a love triangle, he was never their obstacle. Why? Because A&E will scream it from the rooftops that both Emma and Hook are flawed and can be wrong and most often times IS wrong. Now I'm not saying that this is a better situation. They're crappy writers so nothing will be well written. I find their drama tedious too. But it just goes to show how they view and like the individual characters dictate the relationships.

Snow and Charming is another case of having to rely on outside forces and when A&E ran out of that, they're stuck being happy and supporting. They can have domestic issues but we know their stance on that.

[KingOfHearts]

From the spoilers thread, no spoilers:

 

Regina has repeatedly put Emma down, even when they were working together--she insulted her vocation, her parents, etc.. Emma too only tolerared her for Henry's sake, and has called her a monster. Where did this sudden friendship come from?

 

Regina and Emma have been through a lot together, they share a child, their families have histories with each other, Emma knows Regina well, and they fight crime together, but I wouldn't call them "friends". They act more like estranged relatives, which is actually what they are. Regina is Emma's step-grandmother. They have a unique relationship to say the least, but I wouldn't call them friends. I don't see them shopping or nicknaming each other any time soon.

 

When Regina's present, it's because she's Henry's mother and she's technically family. If it weren't for those two variables, she wouldn't matter nearly as much to most of the Charmings, imo. She'd just be another Big Bad like Zelena.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Regina and Emma have been through a lot together, they share a child, their families have histories with each other, Emma knows Regina well, and they fight crime together, but I wouldn't call them "friends". They act more like estranged relatives, which is actually what they are. Regina is Emma's step-grandmother. They have a unique relationship to say the least, but I wouldn't call them friends. I don't see them shopping or nicknaming each other any time soon.

 

When Regina's present, it's because she's Henry's mother and she's technically family. If it weren't for those two variables, she wouldn't matter nearly as much to most of the Charmings, imo. She'd just be another Big Bad like Zelena.

I have to agree, and as long as Emma is not infected with Snow's Regina's Awesome Syndrome, it's not too maddening and does make some sense.

 

They share Henry.  Should they share him?  Well, since Regina is a child abusing narcissistic sociopath, I'd say "Um. . . No.  Keep him away from her."  But, in-show, Henry has been infected with Snow's Regina's Awesome Syndrome, and keeping him away from Regina would likely cause divisions not between Henry and Regina, but Henry and Emma--Emma has experience with what happens when a parent tells Henry he can't see someone.  She'd just be on the other end, this time.

 

It makes sense that Emma would try to keep Regina at least stable, simply because of Henry.