Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

Just now, Rumsy4 said:

They held hands last episode. ;-)

A&E know we don't want 42 minutes of hugging. ;)

[Hookian]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

They held hands last episode. ;-)

For two seconds getting ready to jump into a portal. So did Emma and her mother when they did it in S2. Also friends hold hands all the time, big deal.

Are we forgetting that Regina saw Robin and turned into a mindless zombie? She ignored everything including Emma saying they needed to go. 

Are we also forgetting that the EQ whom is clearly the more sexual of the two sides of Regina, was solely attracted to men and hit on them. Aladdin and Rumple, she wanted the D from them. Never did she hit on any of the females.

SQ is never going to happen, no ambiguous ending unless you're referring to CS getting married by the series finale as ambiguous and grandma Regina there to see her grandaughter get married.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hookian

[Rumsy4]

IDK--I could see something between Mal and Regina in that S4B episode.

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

IDK--I could see something between Mal and Regina in that S4B episode.

Yes. I'll ship it. Dragon Queen forever.

Edited December 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

Yes. I'll ship it. Dragon Queen forever.

Let's hope it had a better end than Hyde Queen @KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

53 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's also because SQ, not the romantic aspect, but the friendship, aligns with A&E's interests.  They think it's such a big bold step to write Regina being friends with Emma or Snow.  Eddy has said how great it is that Regina and Snow are friends, and they feel the same about Regina and Emma.  There's actual pride.  

And they phrase it like it's a big deal that she "allowed herself to be their friend" or whatever, with all the heavy lifting in making the friendship happen coming from them rather than from her.

[InsertWordHere]

15 minutes ago, Hookian said:

And I don't think CS endgame is gonna be ambigous, I think it'll be crystal clear.

I didn't say CS endgame is going to be ambiguous. I said it's "possible we'd get some sort of 'have your cake and eat it too' endgame." You seem to be looking at this from an either/or perspective whereas I am looking at this from a both could happen perspective. I have no doubt that CS will be happy and in love in the series finale. 

11 minutes ago, Hookian said:

no ambiguous ending unless you're referring to CS getting married by the series finale as ambiguous and grandma Regina there to see her grandaughter get married.

Just like it wasn't ambiguous at all when Hook almost died, Emma and Hook made out, and then Emma left him in the hallway so she could go and have a drink with Regina (who has never been referred to in canon as Emma's "grandma") and promised to get her her happy ending. Or when Hook actually did die and came back to life and Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina. Or when Hook helped Emma light the Flame after Regina had tried to use the dagger on her and Emma later thanked Regina for it. Or when Emma told Hook she loves him as she was sacrificing herself for Regina.

I am not saying Emma and Hook won't be together and probably married in the finale. I am saying they will be kissing and happy like they have been for most of the recent finales but Emma and Regina will also be together as friends with the hint of something more just like they have been for most of the recent finales. Only this time that hint will be a little more obvious.  

[Hookian]

11 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I didn't say CS endgame is going to be ambiguous. I said it's "possible we'd get some sort of 'have your cake and eat it too' endgame." You seem to be looking at this from an either/or perspective whereas I am looking at this from a both could happen perspective. I have no doubt that CS will be happy and in love in the series finale. 

Just like it wasn't ambiguous at all when Hook almost died, Emma and Hook made out, and then Emma left him in the hallway so she could go and have a drink with Regina (who has never been referred to in canon as Emma's "grandma") and promised to get her her happy ending. Or when Hook actually did die and came back to life and Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina. Or when Hook helped Emma light the Flame after Regina had tried to use the dagger on her and Emma later thanked Regina for it. Or when Emma told Hook she loves him as she was sacrificing herself for Regina.

I am not saying Emma and Hook won't be together and probably married in the finale. I am saying they will be kissing and happy like they have been for most of the recent finales but Emma and Regina will also be together as friends with the hint of something more just like they have been for most of the recent finales. Only this time that hint will be a little more obvious.  

I guess that's on you because I don't see these hints and yes the show has essentially referred to her as Emma's grandma. Charming has referred to her as technically his mother in law. That means by default Emma is her grandaughter.

I'm good with focusing on actual context and dialogue rather then interpreting meaningless subtext that does not amount to anything in the long run but feed into rapid delusions.

1. After she lost Robin Hood.

2. Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina cause of Henry running away to stop magic.

3. So what if Emma thanked Regina, how is that a hint? It's just more of the writers trying to whitewash Regina's crimes.

4. She sacrificed herself for everyone, that has been a long stated statement by the writers. She sacrificed herself for her family.

Are we forgetting that she went to hell and back for Hook. She didn't care if she became the DO as long as he was alive.

I guess I'm lucky that I don't see these things and there's a reason why these people are called delusional by the mass. Cause they'd rather dig into the subtext of something that isn't even there then pay attention to what is actually happening in the show, the dialogue, etc. Subtext much like chemistry is subjective. If you try to place your argument on subtext, you're going to lose.

I didn't realize this mid-season finale would raise so many insecurities of CS fans but I guess I was fooled to think we were secure in our couple. They really should have aired the 2 episodes back to back, I think this would all be a completely different atmosphere in the fandom, truly I do.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hookian

[Souris]

The show writes to give SQers things they can hang onto. They know how they think and what they'll squee over, just like they know what CSers will squee over. It is a very deliberate thing on their part to give something to both sides. Adam always gives SQ something after CS has gotten something. It's also why they've avoided giving CS a TLK. That would be too concrete for SQ. Instead CS got a test SQ could explain away. That wasn't an accident. I don't think the show will cross that "event horizon" wth CS until the very end of the show, if then, in order to let SQ keep their plausible deniability. At some point last year, the show seemed to make a conscious decision to treat SQ as equal to CS in terms of who they write for, and this season they're writing more for SQ. They now bait CS the same in interviews and online exactly the same as SQ. The show will not slam the door on an SQ possibility that fans can believe in until the last possible moment -- if then. Adam bends over backward not to offend or upset SQ. CSers he doesn't seem to care about offending or upsetting. I think he's deathly afraid of SQers calling him homophobic or misogynistic. 

I'm also not sure why one would think 6x11 would be magically different or better for CS. It's still written by A&E. That's a pretty giant limiter.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Souris

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, Hookian said:

I guess I'm lucky that I don't see these things and there's a reason why these people are called delusional by the mass. Cause they'd rather dig into the subtext of something that isn't even there then pay attention to what is actually happening in the show, the dialogue, etc. Subtext much like chemistry is subjective. If you try to place your argument on subtext, you're going to lose.

I'm really not into calling people delusional for their shipping preferences or the arguments they use for them, but YMMV. ITA that subtext and chemistry is subjective. I subjectively think that CS is the best couple on this show, but I recognize that others have valid reasons for finding other pairings to be more compelling, including seeing the ambiguity in certain SQ scenes.

I am not sure what argument you think I am "losing" here by simply admitting to the possibility of an open to interpretation finale. I said it would be ambiguous. It could also be subjective. It could also be subtextual. Doesn't make it any less of an attempt to please both fanbases. It also doesn't mean I'm "insecure" about CS. If you don't see the ambiguity of the SQ scenes then you can keep on not seeing it, and those who do can keep on seeing it. There's nothing wrong with that. 

[Hookian]

2 hours ago, Souris said:

. 

I'm also not sure why one would think 6x11 would be magically different or better for CS. It's still written by A&E. That's a pretty giant limiter.

Because of the spoilers for that episode.

And I'm not sure how a marriage between Killian and Emma would not be concret but okay.

Quote

I am not sure what argument you think I am "losing" here by simply admitting to the possibility of an open to interpretation finale. I said it would be ambiguous. It could also be subjective. It could also be subtextual. Doesn't make it any less of an attempt to please both fanbases. It also doesn't mean I'm "insecure" about CS. If you don't see the ambiguity of the SQ scenes then you can keep on not seeing it, and those who do can keep on seeing it. There's nothing wrong with that. 

I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. You yourself think Emma and Killian are gettign married by the series finale, that is not an ambiguous or open ended finale by any means necessary. 

Thankfully I don't think that will be the last scene of the show, I think the last scene will be Henry reading the book at Emma's birthday to the children of all the characters and that includes a CS child as well.

Would that be open ending as well? To you? Honestly don't get where you're coming from here. 

I think the attitude would be different if we saw the second part as well.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hookian

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

Because of the spoilers for that episode.

I must have missed those. 

A&E wrote the premiere so it is going to be a queerbaiting mess, just like the finale was. It's pretty obvious they care more for SQ shippers than for anyone else. 

[Curio]

Switching focus here to something that has bothered me all season...

Where's the Rumple/Hook feud? Hook still doesn't know Rumple pushed Milah into the water. Hook roomed with Belle on his ship for a few episodes. Shouldn't that have pissed Rumple off?

[Hookian]

14 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

I must have missed those. 

A&E wrote the premiere so it is going to be a queerbaiting mess, just like the finale was. It's pretty obvious they care more for SQ shippers than for anyone else. 

Spoiler

You are aware that SQ clearly get split up right? Emma is with August with no Regina around and Regina is with Robin with no Emma around. Sure they reunite along w/ Robin and then all leave but there's barely any SQ in the second half. Which is why I think they should have showed these two as they were supposed to be. CS have also beautiful moments when Emma returns and there are pictures of this. Including a heartwarming Swan Jones Family hug.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hookian

[Hookian]

And furthermore I don't understand this honestly. SQ have barely interacted this season. Aside from two episodes. This one and episode eight.

CS had interactions in 6x01(make out session on couch, then the angst that followed)- 3 scenes total

6x03 was CS/SJF centric

6x06 had CC/CS centric

6x07 had the Storybook scene which was beautiful.

6x09 had all the supporting stuff and the talks and the final shot of them with the sword.

I know it didn't look like much but CS got plenty this half. Would I have wanted more, ABSOLUTELY. Especially since we were promised domestic CS but only got one moment which is BS. I hope we get more in 6B. We got to hear all the time though about their domestic moments. Sleeping in the same bed, having a nice night in with the storm outside. Would have preferred seeing it though.

I think S6B will make up for the lack I felt, they've already promised us much more CS and Hook and I think that's cause Emma is back to being the main plot of the season. 

[asabovesobelow]

6 hours ago, Hookian said:

I guess that's on you because I don't see these hints and yes the show has essentially referred to her as Emma's grandma. Charming has referred to her as technically his mother in law. That means by default Emma is her grandaughter.

I'm good with focusing on actual context and dialogue rather then interpreting meaningless subtext that does not amount to anything in the long run but feed into rapid delusions.

1. After she lost Robin Hood.

2. Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina cause of Henry running away to stop magic.

3. So what if Emma thanked Regina, how is that a hint? It's just more of the writers trying to whitewash Regina's crimes.

4. She sacrificed herself for everyone, that has been a long stated statement by the writers. She sacrificed herself for her family.

Are we forgetting that she went to hell and back for Hook. She didn't care if she became the DO as long as he was alive.

I guess I'm lucky that I don't see these things and there's a reason why these people are called delusional by the mass. Cause they'd rather dig into the subtext of something that isn't even there then pay attention to what is actually happening in the show, the dialogue, etc. Subtext much like chemistry is subjective. If you try to place your argument on subtext, you're going to lose.

I didn't realize this mid-season finale would raise so many insecurities of CS fans but I guess I was fooled to think we were secure in our couple. They really should have aired the 2 episodes back to back, I think this would all be a completely different atmosphere in the fandom, truly I do.

In all honesty, if anyone is acting insecure about CS, it's you. I'm pretty sure no one is seriously forecasting a Swan Queen wedding in the finale.

Clearly, you are vehemently against SQ. But...why? Because you don't see it? I do see it, and I love it. But how does that affect you? I don't like Hook and Emma together. I'm not going to list a thousand reasons why, because it doesn't matter. Who cares if a certain group of people are attracted to something that you don't like?

I find the subtext and subtleties of Swan Queen to be the best part of the show. You won't change my mind, I won't change yours, and that's fine. I don't understand why you are calling people idiots and delusional.

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Just like it wasn't ambiguous at all when Hook almost died, Emma and Hook made out, and then Emma left him in the hallway so she could go and have a drink with Regina (who has never been referred to in canon as Emma's "grandma") and promised to get her her happy ending. Or when Hook actually did die and came back to life and Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina. Or when Hook helped Emma light the Flame after Regina had tried to use the dagger on her and Emma later thanked Regina for it. Or when Emma told Hook she loves him as she was sacrificing herself for Regina.

Or when Hook actually asked Emma if she was still feeling guilty that he was alive (because Robin had died). They've written Emma to have some kind of [unhealthy] obsession with Regina's happiness, which can be perceived as something more by SQers, without being delusional. 

The writers do the same for SF. Emma never truly gave Bagel the boot before he died. It's sort of clear from context, but Emma let David persuade her to meet Bagel for the date. They also threw in a bone for SF when Emma talked about how he played her some romantic song in the Henry/Violet episode in 5A, or when she told Bagel that she would've gone to the UW for him too.

All this doesn't make CS any less canon, but it does still make me feel that Killian is much more devoted to Emma than she is to him. For goodness sake, we haven't even seen Killian kiss or say "I love you" to anyone other than Emma, and he wasn't even allowed to meet Milah in the UW. 

Quote

I am not saying Emma and Hook won't be together and probably married in the finale. I am saying they will be kissing and happy like they have been for most of the recent finales but Emma and Regina will also be together as friends with the hint of something more just like they have been for most of the recent finales. Only this time that hint will be a little more obvious.  

I've never seriously considered that possibility until this season. But this season has me wondering that this might happen. They already gave SQ a LoK-like hand holding before portal scene. Anything is possible. 

That's what comes of being the main lead, IMO. It's like Elizabeth kissing three different men in the PoTC movies, and yet marrying Will and staying faithful to him for 10 years off-screen. So, the writers throw a bone for different shipping factions when it comes to Emma as well. 

[Curio]

28 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

For goodness sake, we haven't even seen Killian kiss or say "I love you" to anyone other than Emma

 

How have I not realized this until now? Wow. His character was hand-crafted to be the perfect fairy tale love interest for Emma.

[Kktjones]

35 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I've never seriously considered that possibility until this season. But this season has me wondering that this might happen.

I feel the exact same way. I'm all about ship and let ship and as asabovesobelow said above, it doesn't bother me if people interpret things differently or enjoy different aspects of the show. However, I always thought the people who "saw" SQ were stretching things and reading into things that weren't there. Things started to change with the finale last season and after 6x08 and 6x10 I do think the writers are including a lot of things in the actual text (vs. subtext). They have completely scaled back their focus on CaptainSwan and are doubling down on the Emma/Regina relationship. I don't know if I'd go so far as saying they are queer baiting as I'm not an expert on that, but I definitely feel a shift. As someone who loves the Emma/Hook relationship and loathes the Emma/Regina friendship it's very off-putting to me. However, I would not be surprised at all if they leave things open to interpretation at the end of the series.

[Curio]

51 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

Clearly, you are vehemently against SQ. But...why?

 

Just speaking for myself, but I can sum it up in one word: Graham. He was one of my favorite characters in Season 1, and until the show properly addresses that elephant in the room, I'll never buy an SQ friendship. I don't care if people in fandom ship them for fun, but strictly from a writing perspective, it boggles my mind that this has been unaddressed for six years now.

1 minute ago, Kktjones said:

However, I would not be surprised at all if they leave things open to interpretation at the end of the series.

 

They won't leave anything open to interpretation, but they will probably give the final "touching moment" of the series to a Regina/Emma scene. They'll probably look at Henry and smile as he goes off to high school and say something about how they're so glad they got to raise such a brave and wonderful son and blah blah blah.

[Rumsy4]

I hope Graham never gets brought up. Emma will probably thank Regina for killing him, because she needed that "pain" to be the savior and break the Dark Curse. Ugh...

[maryle]

I know nothing about fandom before one year ago but SQ are definitely not idiot.

They could be big player in the game of thrones!! They play to win.

CS will be end game. Probably, engage at the end of the season and had some kind of adventure. 

But, the test for me is will the CS adventure be before another SQ mosly final.  If CS are separate again for the final it will be so telling.

 I want to know if Next will be promoting as Emma turn it will be Telling too.

Edited December 6, 2016 by maryle
Spelling

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

All this doesn't make CS any less canon, but it does still make me feel that Killian is much more devoted to Emma than she is to him.

Yeah, I've been having this feeling for some time now. For a short time last season, they were equals in the relationship, but we are back to Killian being clearly more in love and more committed to the relationship than Emma.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I've never seriously considered that possibility until this season. But this season has me wondering that this might happen. They already gave SQ a LoK-like hand holding before portal scene. Anything is possible. 

At this point, I'm kind of execting a SQ ending for the show. If they keep writting the show like they are writting it now, SQers would be the only ones left watching it by that point.

5 hours ago, Hookian said:

I know it didn't look like much but CS got plenty this half.

But they didn't. Quantity (and I wouldn't call quantity to 6 or 7 scenes) doesn't equal quality. Only two of those moments were somehow meaningful. but the biggest problem for me and why I would never consider this season good for CS is that they never talked about Emma keeping her vision secret from him. We got a long reaction scene from Regina but nothing from Emma's (supposed) TL.

[Mari]

41 minutes ago, Arnella said:

Chemistry-less Robin and Regina together again - why?  I guess they like seeing Regina snogging but finally realized they were grossing viewers out with Gold lip-locking so scurried to bring back a bit more acceptable snog partner.

I honestly think Robin and Regina could work, provided A&E were willing to actually make it plausible.  The actors seemed friendly, and chemistry can be built in some cases.  

For me, what killed Robin/Regina was not the performers, but the writing.  

Robin should have been conflicted about being with Regina;  she was the exact thing he'd been fighting against in the fairybacks, she killed his wife, and he was a single father who was getting involved with a woman most famous for the fall out from her last relationship with a single father.   There was plenty of potential for angst and conflict as the relationship was formed, and, well, the show firmly embraced it's unspoken motto:  Let all potential be wasted.

Then, after becoming a couple, the show never took advantage of the natural conflict that would exist.  She was rich, pampered, and modern.  He liked the forest, was poor, and new to the LWM.  Instead of dealing with all that, and any potential ensuing comedy and drama, we got crypt sex, Zelarian, and Pistachio.  None of those were particularly convincing or compelling.

Bogey and Bacall couldn't have made that work.

If they actually use some of the natural storyline potential, RobinRedo could work.  Of course, TS;TW, so it won't . . . but it could have.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mari
Forgot something.

[Hookian]

Yeah Im just gonna avoid this thread till the spring premiere, the insecurity of some CS shippers is astonishing truly and tragic. That you would let a crack ship get you this worked up and paranoid.  

[Rumsy4]

I'm neither insecure nor paranoid. I think perhaps, you are unwilling to recognize and acknowledge nuances.

[FormerMod-a1]

Alright, now.  I've been letting things slide a little, but you're still at it.  Remember to be civil here.  Don't "call out" other posters.  Don't tell them they're crazy.  Don't "challenge" them.  If you see something that crosses the line, report it then ignore it.

[Souris]

Basically CaptainSwan has become Snowing. It's now a background relationship. Emma's relationship with Regina and as part of the Swan Mills Family dynamic, romantic or not, is the only one that gets the focus now and will continue to get the focus. The scripts that A&E write are the ones that highlight the themes that are most important to them and by extension the show. All they write anymore are SQ episodes. That is the reality that the show is in now.

If one can't see the major shift that occurred this season in terms of relationship focus, I don't know what to say. The sidelining of CS is crystal clear IMO. The setup BEGGED for a CS domestic scene or two and for Hook and Emma to talk about her vision of death. Neither happened. If the show at all wanted to focus on CS development or deliver on its promise to CS fans, those scenes would have happened. That they did not happen is proof of how egregiously CS has been sidelined. Most CS fans are hung up on what happened in the past with CS focus and that's what they still see, but that's not what's actually happening on the show these days. Fans often have a tendency to see what they want to see, in whatever direction.

The way A&E and the show used to bait SQ, they now bait CS. They blatantly promise things they don't deliver. They hint but never actually show. Adam posts Hook script teases that aren't actually in the show. They know they can put in a shot of an engagement ring and CSers will squee and flail and assume it's for CS with zero basis for it, just like CSers assumed there would be some awesome CaptainDuckling scene in the AU. CSers assume a LOT. There are SQers who used to talk about having "dumb positivity." I think that has extended to some CSers as well. That is of course the right of anybody to see things how they want to see them but it seems to be the core of the CS fandom zeitgeist.

A&E have ruined every romantic relationship on the show in one way or another. CS is just a more subtle form of ruination. It's ruination by neglect rather than ruination by plot, like OQ or RB.

And if we're talking spoilers,

 

there is very little CS spoiled for 6x11 or 6x12 and only one solo scene with a quick kiss for 6x12, which is all CS gets anymore if it even makes it to air; Jennifer was out of town for several days during 6x12 shooting and hasn't been in Vancouver for pretty much all of 6x13 shooting; and 6x14 is an OQ ep. The earliest CS could possibly get any focus at all is 6x15, and that's by no means guaranteed.

I'm going to take the rest to the spoiler thread.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Souris

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Souris said:

If one can't see the major shift that occurred this season in terms of relationship focus, I don't know what to say. The sidelining of CS is crystal clear IMO. The setup BEGGED for a CS domestic scene or two and for Hook and Emma to talk about her vision of death. Neither happened. If the show at all wanted to focus on CS development or deliver on its promise to CS fans, those scenes would have happened. That they did not happen is proof of how egregiously CS has been sidelined. Most CS fans are hung up on what happened in the past with CS focus and that's what they still see, but that's not what's actually happening on the show these days. Fans often have a tendency to see what they want to see, in whatever direction.

I think it only seems like there's been a shift because CS was the focus of almost the entire fifth season. Regina and Zelena had heavy airtime in 5B, but the crux of the plot still centered around Emma going to the Underworld to bring back Hook. The only real difference between this season and the past 3 is that the Regina arc was in the first half where it was usually in the second half; likely Emma will be the focus of 6B, what with her death vision finally coming into play.

[Souris]

2 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think it only seems like there's been a shift because CS was the focus of almost the entire fifth season. Regina and Zelena had heavy airtime in 5B, but the crux of the plot still centered around Emma going to the Underworld to bring back Hook. The only real difference between this season and the past 3 is that the Regina arc was in the first half where it was usually in the second half; likely Emma will be the focus of 6B, what with her death vision finally coming into play.

I don't think CS WAS the focus of almost the entire fifth season. The first half, sure. The second half, nope. I fully reject that premise. They actually got very little focus apart from one ep with the TL test. Heck, half their sorely-awaited reunion scene in the UW was cut! And their big payoff was Emma saying ILY for the 137th time. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Sorry if you disagree, but the entire plot of 5B ends and begins with CS. *shrug* It's clear some shippers are just never satisfied.

[Hookian]

40 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think it only seems like there's been a shift because CS was the focus of almost the entire fifth season. Regina and Zelena had heavy airtime in 5B, but the crux of the plot still centered around Emma going to the Underworld to bring back Hook. The only real difference between this season and the past 3 is that the Regina arc was in the first half where it was usually in the second half; likely Emma will be the focus of 6B, what with her death vision finally coming into play.

I agree with this as well. Regina got the A arc so Emma/CS will likely get the B arc of the season. 

However 5B the focus was a lot on Regina and Zelena especially the later half. 5A was CS, 5B was more balanced w/ more emphasis on Regina/Zelena  as well as CS.

6A however has been an unbalanced mess of almost 3 hrs of Regina screentime and that is too much. I truly hope after Robin leaves, Regina is benched.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hookian

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Sorry if you disagree, but the entire plot of 5B ends and begins with CS. *shrug* It's clear some shippers are just never satisfied.

The plot of the Underworld arc does, yes.  It begins with Hook's death in 5x11 and ends in his resurrection and reunion with Emma in 5x21.  But between then?  Next to nothing aside from a scene or two in 5x14 and 5x15, and all of 5x20. I think Rumbelle had more screentime and development.

Quote

The way A&E and the show used to bait SQ, they now bait CS. They blatantly promise things they don't deliver. They hint but never actually show. Adam posts Hook script teases that aren't actually in the show. They know they can put in a shot of an engagement ring and CSers will squee and flail and assume it's for CS with zero basis for it, just like CSers assumed there would be some awesome CaptainDuckling scene in the AU. CSers assume a LOT. There are SQers who used to talk about having "dumb positivity." I think that has extended to some CSers as well. That is of course the right of anybody to see things how they want to see them but it seems to be the core of the CS fandom zeitgeist.

It's weird since early into S6, they seemed to be shooting SQ down by denying Emma and Regina as much scenes together as possible and talking about how Regina is closer to Snow than she is to Emma.  Did the backlash that created cause they to change direction?  Are they that cowardly?

EDIT: Well, it couldn't have affected 6x08, since that was being produced well before that backlash.  But the backlash that happened, especially in the immediate aftermath of 6x02 and spoilers for 6x03, certainly could have affected how they wrote 6x10.  Not that I think much about it changed, since A&E don't need an excuse for Regina to go be the hero and save Emma, plus they were already planning it for the Robin Hood return, but the more overt SQ pandering may have been a result of the relentless Twitter outrage over Emma being doubtful of Regina and then moving in with Hook.

I know A&E claim they don't write in response to fan input, but Adam's behavior on Twitter suggests that he takes things said there quite personally, and I have grown to be automatically distrustful of anything A&E claim about their writing anyway, so my conspiracy theory remains a possibility. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Mathius said:

the more overt SQ pandering may have been a result of the relentless Twitter outrage over Emma being doubtful of Regina and then moving in with Hook.

I tend not to put much stock into fandom conspiracy theories, but it is interesting that so many of the script teases that have ended up being cut have involved Hook. That implies that there were scenes with him (and with him and Emma) that were written and probably filmed, but that were cut from the finished episode late in the game. But I would think that it would be very unwise to base your writing on what you see on Twitter, especially as ratings are sinking. That's not a good representation of the audience, and so many of those more vocal fans aren't even in the US audience. Though it is possible that he's responding emotionally to criticism rather than thinking through it rationally. He just wants everyone to like him, and so he's going to pander to the people he hears more from. Maybe the Captain Swan folks need to start throwing their hash tag into all responses to everything he says about anything and criticizing anything that isn't what they want. His head will explode from trying to please everyone.

On another note, I've been thinking about the way relationships on this show tend to be written, and I think they suffer from the conjunction of impatience and contrivance. The relationships are often rushed, so they're together without any development or groundwork, and so they have to resort to contrivance to move them apart again. The really frustrating thing for me as a writer watching this writing is how ridiculously easy it would have been to fix most of these things while still ending up in the same place. Take Rumple and Belle. Belle looks like an idiot for being blind to just how bad Rumple was and comes out horribly with all the back-and-forth flip-flopping, and then there's each season's contrivance to break them up again. But all you really have to do is go back to season 2 and not get them together so soon. Have her stick to her guns from "Skin Deep" so that when she sees that the first thing he does after the curse breaks is bring back magic, and the second thing he does is send the wraith after Regina, she realizes he's not ready for her yet. The whole memory loss/Lacey thing ended up being pointless, since it hasn't been so much as mentioned since then, didn't change her view of him, didn't change her view of herself. It was pure contrivance to break them apart. Meanwhile, they totally ignored the organic reason for them to be torn apart that was already there: she learned that he murdered his previous wife, and he lied to her about it, and then she watched him try to kill the man whose hand he'd already cut off for "stealing" the wife he ended up murdering. Talk about red flags! You get the same effect as the memory/Lacey stuff if Belle sees all that and bails on him (plus, without Hook shooting her, it's less weird that he later becomes essentially her best friend). She can warm to him some with the deathbed phone call and then with him having gone to Neverland to save Henry, and be convinced that he's changed when he sacrifices himself to take out Pan, so she can then be ready to accept him when he gives her the (fake) dagger -- and that increases the betrayal when she learns it's fake. We have more contrivance in 4B with Will used to make Rumple jealous while they ignore the organic conflict already there, with her hanging out with Hook, the man his first wife ran away with and his son ended up being friends with. I'm still not sure what they were doing with having her leave at the end of 5A when he had a pure heart and had proven himself to be a hero. She didn't need to be absent at all, given that no one noticed Rumple siphoning off the power. She could have been right there without it making a difference.

It's similar with Emma and her parents. They went straight to everything being okay, then had to come up with stuff like the eggbaby to create conflict rather than taking their time and working through the conflict that was there, based on the contrast between what they all wanted and what they got.

The same thing goes on with Regina, though it's a bit harder to fix without massive ripple effects in the story. They rushed to her redemption in a way that ignored all the potential conflict, though I guess they haven't contrived conflict, since they don't really allow her to have much of a clash with everyone else. They're all friends -- family -- and everything is perfect. They rushed her relationship with Robin, acting like the pixie dust covered everything, then contrived Marian's return to split them up and give them angst, and then Marian's frozen heart spell, and then the existence of Pistachio, and then I guess they finally got bored and killed him, then now it seems like they changed their minds (for the time being) and he's back until the next contrivance hits, and they still haven't really developed how that relationship works or what they see in each other. As many times as they've been split apart, there's no sense of them having any drive to fight for each other.

They've been more patient with Hook and Emma, letting that relationship develop more slowly, but they still have a tendency to rush to milestones, then throw in some monkey wrench to back off from the milestones and keep them apart. It's like the only way they know how to write relationship drama is to separate the couples somehow. They can't find the drama in coming together.

[Lies]

16 HOURS AGO, INSERTWORDHERE SAID:

Quote

I didn't say CS endgame is going to be ambiguous. I said it's "possible we'd get some sort of 'have your cake and eat it too' endgame." You seem to be looking at this from an either/or perspective whereas I am looking at this from a both could happen perspective. I have no doubt that CS will be happy and in love in the series finale. 

Just like it wasn't ambiguous at all when Hook almost died, Emma and Hook made out, and then Emma left him in the hallway so she could go and have a drink with Regina (who has never been referred to in canon as Emma's "grandma") and promised to get her her happy ending. Or when Hook actually did die and came back to life and Emma went on a roadtrip with Regina. Or when Hook helped Emma light the Flame after Regina had tried to use the dagger on her and Emma later thanked Regina for it. Or when Emma told Hook she loves him as she was sacrificing herself for Regina.

I am not saying Emma and Hook won't be together and probably married in the finale. I am saying they will be kissing and happy like they have been for most of the recent finales but Emma and Regina will also be together as friends with the hint of something more just like they have been for most of the recent finales. Only this time that hint will be a little more obvious.  

I honestly don't see anything romantic between Emma and Regina, not even in those examples you gave. I think the thing with Emma being so concerned about Regina's happiness is that she is a very selfless, compassionate person. She's the Saviour - it's in her jobdescription to make sure everyone has their happy ending - even if it's at a personal cost to herself. And she does cares about Regina but as a friend, nothing more.  I think A&E are invested in the Regina/Emma friendship, not in any romance between the two (they've shot that down on at least a couple of occasions). They've specifically introduced Hook to be her love interest. Sure CS is getting a little bit less focus (while Regina/Emma is getting more) right now but I'm sure that will balance each other out later in the season or next season. Maybe they don't know what to do with CS and  probably want to drag out milestones like engagement, marriage and children as much as possible (especially if they want to go on for several more seasons). I do agree that the CS scenes we've had this season weren't all that meaningful, but then A&E are just not good writers (least of all relationships). 

I also disagree with the notion that Emma isn't as devoted to Hook is as he is to her. She went to Hell and back for him (here she fought for HER happy ending). She became the Dark One for him. 

As for not alienating SQ shippers,  it's A&E's story. They have every right to tell their story the way they want to.  When you have different ships for a character, it's inevitable that not everyone is going to be pleased. And I'm pretty sure SQ shippers (and other anti CSers) were pretty unhappy with the romantic CS moments, showing how in love they are and yet they're still here. 

22 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

In all honesty, if anyone is acting insecure about CS, it's you. I'm pretty sure no one is seriously forecasting a Swan Queen wedding in the finale.

Clearly, you are vehemently against SQ. But...why? Because you don't see it? I do see it, and I love it. But how does that affect you? I don't like Hook and Emma together. I'm not going to list a thousand reasons why, because it doesn't matter. Who cares if a certain group of people are attracted to something that you don't like?

I find the subtext and subtleties of Swan Queen to be the best part of the show. You won't change my mind, I won't change yours, and that's fine. I don't understand why you are calling people idiots and delusional.

I don't see it either. Two women can just be friends and love each other platonically without it being a romantic love. I'm against the idea of SQ because I don't think Regina is good for Emma. Not only has Emma suffered a great deal as a result of Regina's actions (who has never apologized or at least shown remorse), no whitewashing is going to change that, but also their friendship feels very unequal to me, with Emma often grovelling (and in the last episode was truly written as weak and out of character) to prop Regina who frequently verbally abuses/talks down to her. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Lies

[Kktjones]

In the episode thread there is a bit of discussion about why they didn't have Hook and/or Charming go with Regina (or why they didn't go in place of her so she could stay back and protect the town from the EQ). I also saw some discussion on Twitter about how out of character it is that Hook just sat around and waited for other people to find Emma. Someone brought up a tweet from Jane E. where she explained that she views all the characters within the show as one big family, but then there are "sub-groups" within that including Regina/Emma/Henry, Emma/Hook/Henry, Charming/Snow/Emma, etc. So the theory was that when they are focusing on one of these "sub-families" no one else is allowed into the group. For example, when it's a Swan-Mills family (it hurts me to even type that because I truly believe that there is no such thing) episode, Hook is not allowed to be involved or even mentioned. Thinking back on the last few Emma/Regina/Henry eps this actually does seem to be the case. In 5x05 we go from Hook helping rid Emma of Head!Rumple to him being no where in sight. In the mirror world Emma never mentions the idea of trying to find Hook through the mirrors or anything about him helping to raise Henry once she's gone. In the "wish world" she never mentioned his name once. Didn't she wonder why he didn't come? Wasn't she curious about where he was in that world? He's her true love and he wasn't part of her life - that seems strange. It looks like he isn't allowed to be involved until the next episode which is no longer a SQ-focused ep. It's an interesting thought and I was thinking about doing a little more analysis, but realized that would involve re-watching eps like Lily and the S5 finale, so no thanks.

[Souris]

Interesting thought and also points to the writers' inability to focus on more than one thing at a time.

[YaddaYadda]

That's why their episodes exist in a vacuum. 

That's why they have continuity problems, and characterization problems. Of course, filming 18 extra minutes doesn't help either. And they've chosen the relationships they'd rather focus on, like Snow/Regina instead of Emma/Snow, or how they killed off Robin and decided to keep Zelena instead and then pushed her aside and did nothing with her. 

Why is Zelena even on the show?

[AnotherCastle]

Eddy Kitsis quote from their latest TVGuide (spoiler warning for 6b) interview:

Quote

What we sometimes forget is that Gold is actually Henry’s grandpa, and they’re all weirdly tied together.

Guess that's the best explanation why Rumple and Henry kind of stopped having any sort of relationship. The mind boggles.

[Mathius]

Yeah, he's his grandpa, and he's tried to kill or orphan the kid MULTIPLE TIMES.  The blood tie should not absolve Rumple of anything.

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe if they didn't delete scenes like that one in 4A when he asked his grandpa to undo his memories we would remember that.

[InsertWordHere]

I actually like that they've "forgotten" that Rumple is Henry's grandfather. Sure, it doesn't really fit with Rumple's character and we occasionally get the odd scene where Henry inexplicably places Rumple above Dark Swan on the trustworthy scale, but on the whole, the forgotten relationship conveniently aligns with my feelings regarding Rumple. None of the characters should want to have anything to do with him. Neither Emma or Regina, especially Regina, should want him in Henry's life at all. In fact, what's been forgotten IMO is that Regina would fight tooth and nail to not have Rumple influence Henry the way he influenced her. 

[KingOfHearts]

Rumple and Belle get the "Worst Grandparents of the Year" award, passing the mantle from Pan and the Black Fairy. (Snowing were in the running, I assure you.)

Edited December 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[tri4335]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Maybe if they didn't delete scenes like that one in 4A when he asked his grandpa to undo his memories we would remember that.

Is that also the scene where he stated that Henry had the blood of the dark one in his veins or did that scene air?  Either way, I'm wondering if that was suppose to be a hint to Rumple's mommy being the Black Fairy?

[Camera One]

Eddy: What we sometimes forget is that Gold is actually Henry's grandpa, and they're all weirdly tied together.

Who is "we"?  The viewers certainly haven't forgotten.  

[Lies]

I just had a few more thoughts I wanted to get off my chest about how OUAT will end with regards to Emma's love life and then I'm going back to lurk-mode. I disagree with the speculation that it will have an open-ending. Some viewers and fans will see what they want to see I suppose, but I doubt the writers will consciously leave it ambiguous as to who Emma truly loves romantically. In my opinion it isn't written ambiguous in the first place. A&E have made it clear in the narrative that Emma and Hook have a profound connection and have been drawn to each other in alternate universes (e.g. the past EF; the Author AU, etc). They've been given big romantic scenes, and regardless of how the anti's  spin it (and they ignore canon/take things out of their context/grossly exaggerate things to make it into something negative or problematic/willfully misunderstand Emma too much for me to take them seriously), they are confirmed TL. They didn't get the traditional TLK (yet) but that's because they're slightly different than the other TL couples. The other pairings fell in love over the course of one episode. CS, on the other hand, their relationship has been gradually developed over several seasons: season 2-Emma’s attracted to Hook but doesn’t trust him and too scared to open herself up to him because of her past relationship with Neal; season 3-Emma let’s down her walls and gives in to her feelings for Hook; season 4- Emma's love for Hook grows and  she recognizes/accepts that; season 5- Emma is scared of losing Hook and fights for her love for him.  So I really don't think that after building these two up as this epic love story for 4+ seasons, A&E are suddenly going to hint that Emma is deep down in love with someone else. That's not how you tell a story. Either Hook is Emma's True Love or he isn't, not something in-between. They may not be the best writers but I've always thought CS was the best written relationship on the show and the writers know where they are going with them. 

Emma and Regina have an affection for each other, but that doesn't mean it's romantic love or that will develop into something more. Also, they don't have a deep bond, it's more about the true love they have for Henry that binds them. Hook loves Emma for herself, not because of other people (but he loves her family too).  I think a big part of why Neal wanted a second chance with Emma was because of Henry.

As to why Regina followed Emma, she caused this to happen in the first place (by splitting herself in two), it's only right she fixes it. I've also seen it mentioned elsewhere that Regina needed to be in the AU in order to meet Robin and that the scenario where Regina snaps Emma out of (although technically it was her love for Henry that did it) wouldn't have worked with Hook (i.e. killing her parents in front of her). Plus, it's a good thing Hook is interacting with other members of Emma's family. I hope we will get some Snow/Hook scenes at some point.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Lies

[YaddaYadda]

Regina being the one to follow Emma to the AU was all about Robin. If David, Henry or Hook had gone to the AU to get Emma back, they would have been a lot more effective, wouldn't have used murder, and would probably have been back by now or trying to figure out a way to get back.

None of these people were ever going to bring Robin back with them to Storybrooke, but Regina is another story.

Edited December 8, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

I love this dialogue from Rumple to Regina in 3x03:

Rumple: "You see, this is how it is. You think you’re the diner at the feast, tasting the offerings. A little love. A little darkness. What you don’t realize is, you are the feast. And the darkness has tasted you ... The darkness likes how you taste, dearie. It doesn’t mind the bitter. And now that it started the meal, it’s going to finish it."

I realize he was just trying to manipulate her, but he has a point about not being able to do just whatever you want. You can't be a hero over here, a murderer over there. You are who you are and you can't just be different people on a whim. Eventually, the real you inside will come out and have the last laugh. You can change with good effort, but you can't go back to the person you used to be whenever you feel like it. Regina chose darkness at that point, and she couldn't play the innocent martyr part any more.

It's funny that Rumple usually has the words of wisdom for Regina. "You can't have everything", or "There's no Author who decides my fate." Yet, he rarely follows his own advice. He wants Belle, but he wants the power too. (Much like Regina with Henry.) It's so weird that Cora was probably the wisest of the three. 

Edited December 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

I'm a big fan of found family, I've discovered. When you're related to someone by blood, the bond is usually obligatory and not really earned. With found family, you care about someone for who they are, and not just because you share DNA. In writing, a family tree connection is a cheap way to create either drama or a bridge for between two characters. For example, it would have taken more effort to show us that Rumple and Pan were simply childhood friends than to just say Pan's his dad. You would have to show what made them friends and how a betrayal would have broken that. But on Once, the writers just threw on a parental abandonment cliche and that's all they really had to do. (And they repeated it again with the Black Fairy.)

A more complex instance of blood vs. water is in Emma and Snow. It's easier to say Emma cares about Snow simply because she's her mother than to keep the lights on with the Emma/MM friendship. Sure, that parental element would always be there, the Mary Margaret personality may have helped smooth things over a bit. MM would have understood Emma's viewpoint so much better because she knew what it was like be alone in the world.

Edited December 24, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[paperplate]

I still cannot get past the lack of romantic chemistry between Regina & Robin (or Lana & Sean) and between Emma & Hook (or Jennifer & Colin). I believe Sean and Colin are miscast. And then they die but the writers just keep bringing them back. I think the writers need to resurrect their brains instead of those two, then maybe this show will die with some dignity.

I also cannot understand why everyone has to have a romantic interest.  I get that it is a significant part of the traditional fairy tale or happily ever after, but it's just too much.