S10.E11: There's No Place Like Home

[DittyDotDot]

Julia, on 28 Jan 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Carson Beckett! Who was also the guy who was arrested for murdering his friend with James Dean's car in the Paris Hilton episode.

 

Yep! The actor's name is Paul McGillion. Loved him as Beckett, though too!

 

Pete Martell, on 28 Jan 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

The guy who played Odin in "Hammer of the Gods" was also in this.

 

And yep! But I don't recall that actor's name.

 

Plus, the guy who killed Charlie's parents was the professor in Tall Tales. Don't know that actor's name either. There were probably others too. It's a fun game! ;)

Edited January 28, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[placate]

I didn't like this episode, but I guess I'm not the only one. I'm kinda confused about the ending though.  Charlie is a Woman of Letters.  She's sworn to help Dean in his cause.  She is all beat up, yet she's just going to prance off into the world and not stay in one of the empty rooms in the bunker?  Maybe she could help out with hitting the books?  Hack something that might have information?  Do some other thing that makes sense?

[Pete Martell]

Duncan Fraser.

 

Does anyone know who played the "good" and "bad" wizard in this episode?

[Wynne88]

He can't put away the weaponry? Sure he can, its a choice, just like everything else. He could choose to not actively hunt right now, but still be a hunter's helper. Or he could decide to leave the weapons behind and lean on Sam more to pick up the slack.

 

To be fair, the damage he did was with his fists; not with weapons.  I guess he could choose to lock himself in the bunker where he would only be in contact with Sam, but I think that would probably drive him crazy eventually.

 

I thought it was interesting the way he watched his hand shake early in the episode.  I thought the shakes were due to going cold turkey from whiskey, especially given the longing looks he was giving the bottles and the contents of his glass at the bar.  But at the end, when he's looking at his hand again, it's very steady so I guess the shakes were actually due to the MoC wanting to be fed.  I'm not sure what that long, deliberate look upwards meant afterwards, though.  Normally I would think someone was praying for help, but that doesn't seem likely with Dean.

[Pete Martell]

I didn't like this episode, but I guess I'm not the only one. I'm kinda confused about the ending though.  Charlie is a Woman of Letters.  She's sworn to help Dean in his cause.  She is all beat up, yet she's just going to prance off into the world and not stay in one of the empty rooms in the bunker?  Maybe she could help out with hitting the books?  Hack something that might have information?  Do some other thing that makes sense?

 

She was going to look for other stuff that could help them; maybe she thought if she stayed it would just bring up bad memories for Dean (that and she has a lot of her own head problems).

[catrox14]

I know this is hard to remember in stand-your-ground America, but self-defense ends when the other person is down. You do not then have license to punch their face in while they are lying there helpless.

 

The progression of  the fight was very clearly:

1) Dean holding back, trying not to hurt Charlie, doesn't trust himself, losing

2) Dean gets more aggressive, breaks Charlie's arm, wins the fight

3) Dean loses control, starts to beat Charlie to death

 

The Mark of Cain thing has never been about Dean isn't allowed to defend himself, it is about losing control. The fight progressed in a way that is exactly consistent with that, and IMHO, illustrated it well.

 

I guess it needed more anvil for some people to get that.

That's all well and good except that he would have been stupid to stop because dark! Charlie could have been playing possum and could have killed Dean even with a broken arm because she was Supernaturally enhanced and was giving as good as she was getting.

If this show cared about real life law Sam and Dean would have been prison for life several times. So for me yes Dean was defending himself against a pretty equal opponent.

[SueB]

And while I expected the anvils, I did not expect Dean being dumbed down SOOOO much to accomodate her. Thompson is embarassing himself with the Charlie character and coming out on top every single time, especially at the expense of the main characters.

 

As Iguana points out:

And it would have been better if Dean trying to give bad Charlie the benefit of the doubt didn't come across as Duh Dean quite as much.

 

Despite all the complaints of anvils, I think this is a case where they could have been a little more clear.

 

Thompson didn't dumb down Dean. Dean was feeding his "denial" up until the point where she killed the dude.  Then he stopped arguing with her. Step by step:

1. Dean's first reaction is to call Charlie and flat out deny this is the "real her" every time Sam brings up evidence (video, case file).

2. Even after finding out there are two "hers", he still not giving up on Dark!Charlie.  I loved his comment about how she practically "sparkles" because he does adore her. And he just can't accept that Charlie could be THAT Dark.

3. He wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt with the asshat because he WANTED her to defeat the darkness.  Yes...he's projecting all over her.  But this is not the first time that it took a BIG thing to completely shake his faith in someone he loves.  So he took away the weapon and presumed that he had neutralized the threat.  He gave her space (like Sam gives him space).  It was a huge mistake.  She was far more capable than he realized.  He should have known that.  I don't think he was dumb, I think he was clouded by judgement.

4. He's pretty pissed off and feeling hopeless (because Dark!Charlie IS that Dark)  when she shows at the bar (hence his mental battle with the alcohol).  But he deliberately told her enough to send her in a different direction.  It wasn't a slip.

5. He missed she was following him.  THAT is a dumb Dean move and a plot contrivance.  I'll give you that one.

6. In the fight, as Lateverian Diplomat so effectively pointed out, his response builds in stages. At the start, I believe he remembers he has to protect Good!Charlie. But when she whacks him into the railing and he get this litter smash in the nose, I think the high tone starts a bit.  He moves to put her down.  Now...WHY?  To keep her from getting to Good Charlie but also, I think, because his Mark if flaring.  And again, he then completely loses it when he starts pounding her face after she's down.

 

There was NEVER IMO any doubt Dean could take Charlie.  He was always holding back.  What apparently was not as evident and needed clarification was that he was trying desperately to have Dark!Charlie show self control.  And he kept giving her opportunities.  What some consider "dumb" was intentional on Dean's part and clouded by his own issues.  IMO only missing her tailing him was Dumb!Dean writing.

 

The Abstinence Diet:

- He's making a rookie mistake. Period.  Dean Winchester has had to go without food but he's never chosen to deny himself specific food or alcohol.

   

CASTIEL Well, slowly but surely, everyone in this town is falling prey to Famine, but so far, you seem unaffected.

    DEAN Hey, when I want to drink, I drink. When I want sex, I go get it. Same goes for a sandwich or a fight.

    CASTIEL So...you're saying you're just well-adjusted?

    DEAN God, no. I'm just well-fed.

 

- So he's going for the no stimulant, health-aware, "clean" diet. No processed foods, no treats, no alcohol. He's out of his mind. And he's punishing himself.  This is penance.

- Anyone who's ever been on a diet can see he's completely unrealistic that he can make that work.

- It's a metaphor for no-violence with the Mark but also shows how desperate he is.

- Charlie herself gave the thesis of the episode: balance

- So while it was played for laughs to see Dean LITERALLY go for the self-healing yoga-ish crap, it's him trying to do the right thing but making some serious rookie mistakes.  Abstinence on alcohol is a good move.  The rest requires moderation.  I'm hoping he figures this out between episodes.

BTW -- that was Robert Singer's voice on the cassette tape.  Personally, given Singer's personality, I kept thinking they must have laughed a lot while recording that tape and filming that scene. 

 

Bottom line:

- I don't think Dean was dumb -- he was in denial that Charlie could be THAT Dark. They even had Charlie call it (denial) his signature move.

- He's wearing a hair shit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hair%20shirt  ) in the form of an Abstinence Diet. It's over the top and doomed to failure.  A combination of rookie mistake and his SECOND signature move - guilt.

 

I think this was actually better written than I think people are giving it credit for.

Edited January 28, 2015 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

To be fair, the damage he did was with his fists; not with weapons.  I guess he could choose to lock himself in the bunker where he would only be in contact with Sam, but I think that would probably drive him crazy eventually.

 

Oh, I know the damage wasn't done with knives, but fists, but Dean's fists are weapons and he probably should stow them too. I think my entire point here is being lost. Dean isn't putting away anything that will actually give him control over the Mark. If he wants to stop drinking, more power to him, but the drinking doesn't do anything for the Mark, IMO. In fact, I bet the drinking would probably help take the edge off Dean and dull some of the effects of the Mark. Same with the junk food.

 

Anyhoo, I think Dean needs to put away his anger if he wants to get some control over the Mark, but until he can do that, he needs to realize he can't keep putting himself in positions to lose control. So yeah, I think he needs to stow the weapons (fists too) and hang back in the bunker for the time being--that would be the responsible thing to do, IMO. What's funny about the anvils in this episode is they didn't really ever capitalize on how Charlie's parents were killed by someone who was being irresponsible--kinda like Dean is currently being, IMO.

[Aeryn13]

 

 

I know this is hard to remember in stand-your-ground America, but self-defense ends when the other person is down. You do not then have license to punch their face in while they are lying there helpless.

The progression of  the fight was very clearly:

1) Dean holding back, trying not to hurt Charlie, doesn't trust himself, losing

2) Dean gets more aggressive, breaks Charlie's arm, wins the fight

3) Dean loses control, starts to beat Charlie to death

The Mark of Cain thing has never been about Dean isn't allowed to defend himself, it is about losing control. The fight progressed in a way that is exactly consistent with that, and IMHO, illustrated it well.

I guess it needed more anvil for some people to get that.

 

I`m European actually so my problem with the current message is not an American viewpoint. As it isn`t the show needing to be more anvillicious. Please god no, if any more anvils had fallen, no viewer would have survived it. 

 

IMO the general handling of the MOC and this episode in particular was as simplistic as they come. Charlie is literally split into good and evil Kirk-style (and that Star Trek episode actually had a valid point on that matter IMO) and look how her evil self currently mirrors Dean and tells him all about being evil, how good it feels, how much in denial he is. He started the last episode wanting his arm cut off or something because he basically developed a "killer instinct" in his mind so he is hardly in denial. We also already covered the "it feels good" ground last episode.

 

If Dean wasn`t currently supposed to be "evil", he could show excessive force in a fight or hypervigilance and the narrative would judge it completely differently. Instead we get the "look at how dark he is" highlighting without any nuance or anything. I can`t even remember when I thought for the last time the show illustrated something evil. Must have been years ago. Performance and direction can do wonders sometimes but if the writing isn`t there, it isn`t there.

 

As for Dean laying down the weapons or not wanting to hunt anymore, this is again probably something the writers would dismiss out of hand because then they would have to think creatively on how to use the character`s screentime. The show is still presumably about hunting monsters, not angsting around in the bunker. And I personally wouldn`t be interested in a "Sam hunts by his lonesome" episode either with random cuts to Dean doing nothing exciting. That is how the Cas-plots have been boring for years now.

 

Of course, it would be relatively easy to follow the Buffy-formula of "if something terrible were to happen, history suggests it will happen to one of us" and have Dean dutifully stay at the bunker, only for that to suddenly come under attack and bye, bye peaceful time-out.

 

 

I think this was actually better written than I think people are giving it credit for.

 

Definitely a big mileage varies thing because Thompson can show no moderation with his Charlie crush and this episode suffered more than any other for it. I think Thompson approaches those scripts like Charlie was the main character with all that entails so in "and then Charlie does this and is badass there etc", he fills in the blanks with "because so-and-so does this". That this makes so-and-so look like they had their brain removed is of no concern. Because that would entail thinking of them as he thinks about Charlie.

 

If some other writers gave Charlie the idiot stick, Thompson would notice immediately and recoil in horror. But since he is writing all her episodes, that will never happen.

 

After the 200th episode, this was the second dud he delivered this Season for me. Too bad because his episode, incidentally the 11th as well, last year, was the only one I considered truly good out of all Season 9.     

Edited January 28, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

LOL. Actually, that is a massive plot hole. They should have just chloroformed Good!Charlie and Dark!Charlie would sleep.

Right?? RIGHT?? I mean they have ALL the lore and spell books in the LoL but they didn't think to just sedate both Charlies until they could find a way to fix it? Of course not because then they couldn't have Dean beating the shit out of his little sister to remind us how he can't control the darkness. I think the only way I'm going to really believe that Dean is totally out of control is when he actually kills Sam or Cas.

Edited January 28, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

- He's wearing a hair shit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hair%20shirt  ) in the form of an Abstinence Diet. 

 

*giggle snort*  At first, I was like, "He's wearing a WHAT?!?!"  Then I read your link.

 

I agree with Ditty -- logically, Dean should have gone with Good Charlie to do research while Sam trailed Dark Charlie.  The way they did it was an obvious set-up for Dark Charlie to put temptation in Dean's path.  And Sam barely objected.  

 

It's rare that I say this, but Sam needs to take a firmer hand with Dean.  Some tough love, I think.  He can't keep letting Dean do what Dean says he can do and/or handle.  Because Dean obviously does not have a handle on things.

[Pete Martell]

Right?? RIGHT?? I mean they have ALL the lore and spell books in the LoL but they didn't think to just sedate both Charlies until they could find a way to fix it? Of course not because then they couldn't have Dean beating the shit out of his little sister to remind us how his so fighting all the darkness.

 

It's much easier to say someone could be chloroformed than to actually do it. Most of the times Dean was with the bad Charlie was when she was in control of the situation or he was making her think she was. If he'd tried anything, she would have gotten away.

If Dean wasn`t currently supposed to be "evil", he could show excessive force in a fight or hypervigilance and the narrative would judge it completely differently. Instead we get the "look at how dark he is" highlighting without any nuance or anything. I can`t even remember when I thought for the last time the show illustrated something evil. Must have been years ago. Performance and direction can do wonders sometimes but if the writing isn`t there, it isn`t there.

 

If the show was trying to say Dean was evil, I don't think they'd keep showing him trying to control what he's doing, or show people trying to help him. I think it's about him struggling to maintain who he is, not about him being bad or wrong.

[cassandle]

But Good Charlie could sedate herself and it would take out Dark Charlie without being anywhere near her.

[DittyDotDot]

It's much easier to say someone could be chloroformed than to actually do it. Most of the times Dean was with the bad Charlie was when she was in control of the situation or he was making her think she was. If he'd tried anything, she would have gotten away.

 

I think catrox and others were suggesting they chloroform GoodCharlie--since they were connected and whatever happens to one happens to the other--it would've also knocked out BadCharlie. Problem solved.

 

As I've said many times before...no vilianous plot can not be out-thought with a little logic and rational thought, but logic and rational thought having no place here, I guess we'll have to keep our plot holes, then. ;)

[catrox14]

It's much easier to say someone could be chloroformed than to actually do it. Most of the times Dean was with the bad Charlie was when she was in control of the situation or he was making her think she was. If he'd tried anything, she would have gotten away.

I disagree, it didn't matter which Charlie was sedated because it was going to affect the other one. Dean could have slipped dark Charlie a mickey in the bar. Dean could have used some kind powder thing that Henry used on that woman in his episode that took just her inhaling the stuff to work. He just had to blow it in her face once to knock her out. IMO this was just more dumbing down of both Sam and Dean for plot reasons. Why would he really let Dean go with dark Charlie knowing he's on edge? Did it take Dean beating on their *little sister* for him to finally do something? Sigh...

Edited January 28, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

There was no obvious solution of knocking out Good!Charlie because it would have ended the story at the 20 min mark.  I see no other rationale.

[catrox14]

There was no obvious solution of knocking out Good!Charlie because it would have ended the story at the 20 min mark. I see no other rationale.

The rationale was plot contrivance to manuever Dean into the situation that he beat the shit out Charlie to remind us of his troubles. But they couldn't let Dean beat on regular Charlie because that would be something they probably couldn't pull Dean back from.

IMO they were much more successful with showing how dangerous Dean could be when he came out of Purgatory and was attacking the guy in jail. I found that more worrisome than this because they keep pulling their punches with who Dean is hurting and why.

Edited January 28, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I think catrox and others were suggesting they chloroform GoodCharlie--since they were connected and whatever happens to one happens to the other--it would've also knocked out BadCharlie. Problem solved.

 

Sorry. I misread it. 

 

I guess it could have worked, but they also needed Charlie around for some of what was going on (like talking to the guy from Oz). 

[catrox14]

 

Anyhoo, I think Dean needs to put away his anger if he wants to get some control over the Mark, but until he can do that, he needs to realize he can't keep putting himself in positions to lose control. So yeah, I think he needs to stow the weapons (fists too) and hang back in the bunker for the time being--that would be the responsible thing to do, IMO. What's funny about the anvils in this episode is they didn't really ever capitalize on how Charlie's parents were killed by someone who was being irresponsible--kinda like Dean is currently being, IMO.

 

I don't understand this. If Dean is carrying around anger over his life how is him repressing it going to help?  Isn't that just more of Dean not being able to actually be angry if he has reasons to be angry? Isn't that kind of the same thing as the "suck it up boo hoo Princess speeches " that have kind of gotten him to this place if it is indeed the his own  lack of self-worth engaging the Mark vs the Mark setting off his anger?

[DittyDotDot]

I don't understand this. If Dean is carrying around anger over his life how is him repressing it going to help?  Isn't that just more of Dean not being able to actually be angry if he has reasons to be angry? Isn't that kind of the same thing as the "suck it up boo hoo Princess speeches " that have kind of gotten him to this place if it is indeed the his own  lack of self-worth engaging the Mark vs the Mark setting off his anger?

 

I'm not suggesting Dean suppress his anger, I'm suggesting that Dean needs to learn how to handle it without violence, if he's going to have any control over the Mark. I also think it's a process and not going to happen overnight. So, until he does have control over it, he needs to stay away from the things that trigger him. It's like addicts going to rehab to remove them from their patterns and triggers until they detox and can get some control over their addiction.

[catrox14]

I'm not suggesting Dean suppress his anger, I'm suggesting that Dean needs to learn how to handle it without violence, if he's going to have any control over the Mark. I also think it's a process and not going to happen overnight. So, until he does have control over it, he needs to stay away from the things that trigger him. It's like addicts going to rehab to remove them from their patterns and triggers until they detox and can get some control over their addiction.

 

I guess to me it's a vicious circle. Dean didn't slaughter the rapey guys because he was angry. It was because they attacked him. He was on his way out when he was attacked from behind. Sure he was probably filled with rage because of what they did but he didn't strike the first blows with them or here with Charlie either.

 

i think it's reasonable to say that anger is going to be a by-product of one's life being threatened but I don't think it's Dean being violent is because he's always angry, if that makes sense. To me, it's like saying Dean is never allowed to be angry about anything EVER for fear he'll become extremely violent? I don't think I can get on board that train.

[rue721]

I think "bad" Charlie was trying to corrupt "good" Charlie and wanted her to agree to let "bad" Charlie be dominant, the way that the "bad" version of the Wizard was (I thought the guy who played the "good" version did a good job - not sure who the actor was).

 

That's why I was thinking the only threat would have been if bad!Charlie were the "real" Charlie and good!Charlie would have just been swallowed up within her if they had re-combined. But that's not what happened, it was bad!Charlie who was basically swallowed up. So I didn't understand why bad!Charlie would have been trying to seduce good!Charlie into being "together" again in the first place, or why good!Charlie wouldn't go for that.

 

I think a better way of handling that would have been for good!Charlie and bad!Charlie have been working as a team. They wouldn't have wanted to combine because they liked being able to "delegate" their work and to be part of a team together instead of just one lonely, vulnerable, confused person. Meh, not the conflict they were going for in this episode though, I guess?

 

My main issue is that I don't even really know what the conflict was -- didn't bad!Charlie, good!Charlie, Sam and Dean *all* want both Charlies to be put back together again?

 

Of course, a more important part of Cain's lifestyle was isolation in a serene, pastoral environment, but clearly, Dean finds that even less appealing than kale. 

 

Of course he's going to hate kale if he eats it raw on a sandwich like that. Bleh. I actually would have found it funnier, if not much more interesting, if Dean had actually gotten on the bandwagon of some healthy fads. You know, like got really into making Green Monsters and maybe cooking "slow food," going to the Vitamin Shoppe and spending way too much on fancy fish oil from the refrigerator section, stuff like that. Idk, he's kind of a joiner, and I always like when the guys try to hook into fads. Like when Dean was trying to get on Tinder with his dorky Impala67 profile. But the weirdest thing about the health kick he was on is that it was like nobody at the show actually is keyed into any health fads. I mean, he couldn't even talk about "complete proteins" or something? Well anyway.

 

I feel like this script was just sort of farted out and they didn't spend any time punching it up *at all.* Because of the blah jokes and basic plot holes, I mean. And though I usually have the opposite problem, I actually felt like they could have thrown at least one more side plot in there to break things up a bit more because the pacing felt glacial.

 

Something else that occurred to me last night...did Dean quit drinking cold turkey?  For someone who's been drinking pretty regularly for at least 10 years now shouldn't he have the shakes or something?  They showed him shaking when he had the knife in his hand but nothing that pointed towards alcohol withdrawal.

 

FWIW, I personally didn't expect him to have really serious withdrawal symptoms like the shakes or hallucinations or anything, he's not *that* heavy a drinker. Judging on how he acts usually I mean, not on the quantities they show him drinking (which I often find absurd and just ignore at this point). Plus, it would just be so immensely disturbing and imo would have taken over the whole episode for them to have a subplot of Dean going into serious alcohol withdrawal. I mean, you can die from that.

 

What I *did* expect was for him to switch to beer or some other "light alcohol" drink instead of going cold turkey entirely. Maybe even switch to just clear liquor? Basically, I expected him to do a "but drinking this doesn't *really* count as drinking, though!" kind of thing. And also for Sam to notice if Dean didn't drink for a *week.* That was the part that was actually distractingly hard for me to believe, tbh, that Sam didn't notice and also that Dean just put that out there and straight up acknowledged that him staying away from drinking for a week was a big deal. This is very minor, but I would have preferred if they have been talking about how Dean is on a health kick, and Sam had been the one to say that he's noticed Dean hasn't taken a drink all week.

 

Oh, I know the damage wasn't done with knives, but fists, but Dean's fists are weapons and he probably should stow them too. I think my entire point here is being lost. Dean isn't putting away anything that will actually give him control over the Mark. If he wants to stop drinking, more power to him, but the drinking doesn't do anything for the Mark, IMO. In fact, I bet the drinking would probably help take the edge off Dean and dull some of the effects of the Mark. Same with the junk food.

 

Anyhoo, I think Dean needs to put away his anger if he wants to get some control over the Mark, but until he can do that, he needs to realize he can't keep putting himself in positions to lose control. So yeah, I think he needs to stow the weapons (fists too) and hang back in the bunker for the time being--that would be the responsible thing to do, IMO. What's funny about the anvils in this episode is they didn't really ever capitalize on how Charlie's parents were killed by someone who was being irresponsible--kinda like Dean is currently being, IMO.

 

IA that Dean needs to stay away from fighting and that it seemed really kind of absurd to me that he was making such an effort not to have a beer or red meat or whatever but grabbed that knife back at the bunker with *maybe* just a worried look. They definitely should have made more of an effort to keep him out of the fray in this episode if they wanted to do a little arc about him trying to be abstinent from the stuff that sets him off.

 

The idea of Dean uncomfortably relating to or seeing himself in the *drunk driver* rather than bad!Charlie (especially since Dean thought she wasn't really that bad) would have been really interesting imo. I wish they'd gone in that direction. They could have had him defending the drunk driver more viciverously against bad!Charlie and made the showdown be between the two of them. Then they could have had Sam and Dean swap partners so that good!Charlie and Dean are back at the bunker, and good!Charlie is in danger from him and we also get a taste of bad!Charlie and Sam interacting.

 

Anyway, I don't think that Dean's major issue with controlling the Mark is anger. If anything imo it's fear -- though not necessarily fear for himself. When he was trying to get the Blade from that collector in the first place, he got it to fly into his hand when he saw Sam being attacked. I think that's pretty par for the course for him. That's the main difference between Dean as a demon and Dean as himself, maybe -- I think that as a demon, he *did* just get pissed off and lash out, but as himself, it's still more about danger/fear than about intimidation/rage imo.

 

There was no obvious solution of knocking out Good!Charlie because it would have ended the story at the 20 min mark.  I see no other rationale.

 

They've done a very similar plot in The Vampire Diaries, but the (imo clever) way they sewed up the plotholes without ruining story in that episode was that (TVD S2 spoiler I think?)

Katherine (the "bad" doppleganger) linked herself to Elena (the "good" doppleganger) so that anything done to Katherine was done to Elena, but not vice versa. Also, Katherine was superhuman (a vampire) while Elena was just a regular human being, so anything strong enough to really hurt Katherine or knock her out would have killed Elena. It was actually a pretty cool and effective subplot for that episode, imo.

[DittyDotDot]

I guess to me it's a vicious circle. Dean didn't slaughter the rapey guys because he was angry. It was because they attacked him. He was on his way out when he was attacked from behind. Sure he was probably filled with rage because of what they did but he didn't strike the first blows with them or here with Charlie either.

 

i think it's reasonable to say that anger is going to be a by-product of one's life being threatened but I don't think it's Dean being violent is because he's always angry, if that makes sense. To me, it's like saying Dean is never allowed to be angry about anything EVER for fear he'll become extremely violent? I don't think I can get on board that train.

 

Right, it was self defense...to a point. That was kinda the point with BadCharlie. Once she was down, he should've tied her up or something so they could blend her back with GoodCharlie, but he let his anger overtake him and kept wailing on her instead which only lead to him hurting GoodCharlie too. That's not self defense anymore, that's wailing on someone and was counterproductive to the mission--which was capture her so they could meld the two Charlies back together.

 

My entire point is, Dean's gonna need to find other ways to channel his anger to get control of the Mark or they will remove the Mark altogether, but in the meantime, he needs to stay away from things that set him off. He can't just go slaughtering everyone that challenges him or pisses him off. Granted the rapey guys were rapey guys and I don't care about them and I don't care that they are dead. I care about Dean and what this is doing to Dean. If the Mark wasn't pushing Dean, he never would've massacred them. He would've subdued them, but probably left them alive if he could since they were human and humans aren't their job.

 

I'm not suggesting that Dean has to do this for the rest of his life, only till he figures out how to control the Mark. Its completely irresponsible to keep putting himself in the same situation, knowing he doesn't have any control over the Mark for now. And, Sam needs to take a stronger hand on Dean too and remind him that he's not at his best right now.

Edited January 28, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Latverian Diplomat]

Random stray thought engendered by the writeup:

 

the steady diet of road burgers and beer his character Hoovers down. Mark of Cain or not, you know Dean really would be 350 pounds and gulping down high blood pressure meds and antacids if he were a real person.

 

 

It occurs to me that Dean's diet might be the most unrealistic portrayal of living on junk food since Jared Padalecki's previous partner in crime, Rory Gilmore.

 

That amuses me, perhaps more than it should.

[catrox14]

Random stray thought engendered by the writeup:

 

 

It occurs to me that Dean's diet might be the most unrealistic portrayal of living on junk food since Jared Padalecki's previous partner in crime, Rory Gilmore.

 

That amuses me, perhaps more than it should.

 

You know for an ordinary person with a sedentary lifestyle i would agree that's true. But Dean is a fit guy, he's always out and about. I really actually can believe that he's able to eat shit food and drink and still be thin.

[SueB]

 

To me, it's like saying Dean is never allowed to be angry about anything EVER for fear he'll become extremely violent?

Dean will get angry. Anger is an emotion and is not optional.  It's the reaction to anger that is what he needs to work on.  Dean's repress with a side order of "occasional bouts of alcoholism and violence" is no longer a viable coping mechanism.  It was ALWAYS unhealthy but now he can't really cope and meet his own personal moral code (as well as the laws of most states when humans are involved). 

 

So.. he needs to develop new coping strategies given the MoC ability to dump a massive roid-rage like effect into his system when triggered.  He needs to learn his triggers and avoid them.  For example: when someone literally smashes Dean's head with a boot, that appeared to trigger his out-of-control response.  He lives a violent life.  Either he gets out of the violent life, gets more backup from Sammy, or learns a method to slow down his act/react cycle.  That's some serious mental control the average bear would not have IMO. Now Dean is NOT the average bear.  He's been thru enough mindf*cks with Hell, Angel jerking around (i.e. The End and It's a Terrible Life), and Purgatory.  He's actually got a better handle on how to differentiate reality and threats than most.  I think he will not successfully learn via any "self-healing yoga crap" (his words, not mine...I think there's something to that stuff). He'll have to find a method that is either a meditation-based kind of approach (without calling it that) or some supernatural-driven spell that allows him to recognize the adrenaline rush of a serious fight and make a choice on how to respond rather than simply react.

 

Just being content with who he is and happy with his place in the world will never be able (IMO) to overcome the natural process of Fight or Flight when suddenly threatened.  Dean's experienced enough to hand many situations already, but some (like a blow to the head) may not ever be controllable. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

 

Either he gets out of the violent life, gets more backup from Sammy, or learns a method to slow down his act/react cycle.

 

I don`t think that will work because a trained fighter will be down to the point where in a real fighting situation instinct and muscle memory take over and there is no conscious reaction time. That is how you are getting good, to get that "need to think about it" time down to nothing. And he has gotten good. The reverse process would be kinda "unlearn how to swim". Um...nope.

 

Now obviously, normally, that doesn`t mean you get kill crazy because you can come back to yourself when the thick-of-things part of the fight is over. For Dean, I think the Mark removes his ability to power down but, if suitably provoked, it should be impossible to him not to power up in the first place. He can`t, by will-power, stop the adrenaline from flowing. And once it does, it combines with the Mark in the deadly way.

 

The only answer would be to remove himself completely from any possibility of provocation which, for reasons that the show can`t allow it, will obviously not happen. For all accounts and purposes, removing himself from temptation seems to be the thing he is trying next but 

Sam will be the one to advocate going on a hunt as per the synopsis.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

Right, it was self defense...to a point. That was kinda the point with BadCharlie. Once she was down, he should've tied her up or something so they could blend her back with GoodCharlie, but he let his anger overtake him and kept wailing on her instead which only lead to him hurting GoodCharlie too. That's not self defense anymore, that's wailing on someone and was counterproductive to the mission--which was capture her so they could meld the two Charlies back together.

 

 

The more I think about this episode the more annoyed I am. 

 

IMO, what is being lost with all this business about Dean not drinking or eating healthy or that Dean's rage or anger either compels him to go further in his killing is that it's ignoring that Dean's addiction is to the bloodlust that he feels. It's the need, and compulsion and desire to kill. Dean said it himself in 9.23. That he really really needed to kill and if he didn't he just got more sick.

 

The Mark was pushing him to kill. It was never about what he ate or drank. IIRC he drank MORE in Mother's Little Helper to try and control the desire and need to kill that was rising up in him. I  never thought the bloodlust was born of any particular emotion nor that any particular emotion makes it worse. IMO bloodlust is it's own thing. It exists for it's own sake as far as I can tell.

 

Dean never had that desire to kill for killing's sake UNTIL he got the Mark.  So for me this entire thing of good!Charlie vs bad!Charlie or id vs ego or whatever doesn't mesh with what Dean is experiencing because the Mark was only about bloodlust and Dean's need to kill which was still there when he was demon!Dean.   At this point I have no idea what they are trying to tell me about the Mark and Dean and his problems. And I really kind of resent them tying bloodlust to Dean's other likely addiction of alcohol or to make his giving in to the bloodlust about any other vice or negative emotion he has in his life. It's also bothering me that Sam and Cas seem to not be remembering and even Dean is not remembering that it was bloodlust and not any kind of moral failing on Dean's part that he slaughtered 5 men in self-defense. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Thank you SueB, you articulated far better what I've been trying to say all day.

[rue721]

Is he that angry, though? Considering the circumstances (or really not even considering the circumstances), he doesn't seem like an especially angry person to me. He seems to me more like he's really tense.

 

He did seem angry when he was a demon, though. It seemed to me like he was just going around looking for things to set him off or looking to get under other people's skin (like when he was taunting that dancer with his $20 bill). It seemed like he was angry and trying to make up excuses to unleash that on somebody, anybody. But as a regular person, he doesn't seem like he's looking to take offense or looking to insult anyone else and set them off, either. Even when he *has* been looking to hurt people it's been in a really cold blooded way that's pretty unlike him. I mean like when he was threatening Metatron last episode. (And I think that was also the Mark pushing him at least somewhat, because it's unlike Dean to be cold blooded and sadistic like that, I think. YMMV). And he had good reason to be actually just straight up pissed off at Metatron, considering Metatron literally stabbed him in the heart.

 

ETA:  I'm trying to say, when it comes to Metatron, he actually would have had good reason to get all hotheaded and angry, and to have trouble containing that anger -- but that's not what happened imo. He seemed in perfect control over himself and not especially angry at all, just delighted at the idea of getting to peel Metatron apart. Which is why I found it sadistic and unlike Dean's usual self. YMMV.

 

Imo he actually has a fairly long fuse even now, *except* that when he does start getting violent he doesn't seem to be able to stop. It's very all-or-nothing with him and getting violent imo. He's been sort of like that for years -- I mean, thinking back to when he'd just come back from Purgatory and he tried to interrogate that guy but quickly escalated it to weird torture threats, etc. But I think the Mark has been making violence more tempting (not necessarily making him angrier per se, though?) and has been making it easier for him to totally lose himself in violence.

 

That he really really needed to kill. That the Mark was pushing him to kill. It was never about what he ate or drank. IIRC he drank MORE in Mother's Little Helper to try and control the desire and need to kill that was rising up in him. I  never thought the bloodlust was born of any particular emotion nor that any particular emotion makes it worse. IMO bloodlust is it's own thing. It exists for it's own sake as far as I can tell.

 

Yeah, I agree with that, that his issue with the Mark has been that it's given him a lot of bloodlust.

 

I found the dieting and teetotaling in this episode confusing, not so much because I didn't understand why Dean himself would do that (person feeling out of control overcompensates by acting like a control freak -- totally normal imo) but because I didn't understand what the show itself was trying to say (thematically, I guess). I mean, outside Dean's head, drinking and eating don't really have anything to do with the Mark, I don't think?

Edited January 28, 2015 by rue721

[Latverian Diplomat]

You know for an ordinary person with a sedentary lifestyle i would agree that's true. But Dean is a fit guy, he's always out and about. I really actually can believe that he's able to eat shit food and drink and still be thin.

I would argue that while a very active person can eat more cheeseburgers than average and still be OK, that would be on top of a healthy diet, not in place of it.  And while one would think that Sam and Dean spend a lot of time working out, what we see on the show is actually very sedentary, lots of long car trips and long hours in the library or hotel rooms doing research.

 

Of course, that's just what we see. It's not my goal to turn this into an appeal for a substantial increase in shirtless, sweaty Winchester workout footage in the show, but if others want to take up that cause, I won't stand in their way. :-)

[rue721]

Of course, that's just what we see. It's not my goal to turn this into an appeal for a substantial increase in shirtless, sweaty Winchester workout footage in the show, but if others want to take up that cause, I won't stand in their way. :-)

 

OMG can they please do this. Please please please (and it's almost my birthday. Just saying).

 

What's ridiculous is that while obviously the hotness would be phenomenal, I'd also for real be interested in the workout itself. I'm picturing some kind of convict conditioning + cardio thing.

[catrox14]

Dean and Sam run all the time though! They are chasing down monsters and demons. They may ride around in the car, but they run through forests etc. Heck Dean spent an entire year drying out from alcohol and running for his life in Purgatory.   They may not weight train specifically but they did spend that weekend at the spa with Peruvian fat suckers and Sam poses as a yoga instructor.  I don't think Dean ONLY eats burgers and drinks beer.  He eats steak and fish and drinks whiskey too.  See it's a well rounded diet.  

[Latverian Diplomat]

OMG can they please do this. Please please please (and it's almost my birthday. Just saying).

 

What's ridiculous is that while obviously the hotness would be phenomenal, I'd also for real be interested in the workout itself. I'm picturing some kind of convict conditioning + cardio thing.

It would be interesting to do a "what the Winchesters do when they're not on a case" episode. In addition to workouts, there are probably some interesting hobby possibilities. Unfortunately, to be accurate, it would probably have to feature Dean's porn stash more than is in good taste, even by CW standards. :-)

[catrox14]

I'm not saying I would watch Dean watch porn...

[SueB]

 

a trained fighter will be down to the point where in a real fighting situation instinct and muscle memory take over and there is no conscious reaction time

I'll have to quibble with you on that one.  A trained fighting is always aware of what his opponents are doing and calculating three steps ahead.  If your point was the efficiency of a trained fighter, I absolutely agree. And yes, the specific moves are muscle memory. But the choice of how/who/where/when is pretty complex and requires mental dexterity and superior situational awareness.

 

I'll make two really oversimplified examples. It's a standard cop trope to show them in a complex training situation and shooting pretend bad guys versus good guys. Split-second timing. The concept applies to hand-to-hand in terms of target (which body, what part of the body, etc..).  Another example is an old Peyton Manning Marriott commercial where they had Peyton running thru his inner monologue in a kind of slow-mo as he assessed the defense and picked his target.  In what is about 3 seconds realtime, he had about 20 seconds of dialog.

 

So, while I agree execution of a specific move (kick/punch/throw) is muscle memory, I think there's a boat-load of split-second thinking that a trained fighter does.  I'm suggesting that self-monitoring of body reaction (and when it's starting to escalate) is something Dean may need to insert.  How to step away or ratchet down to defensive moves if the MoC is amping up. 

 

Note to DDD: *blush* didn't mean to but thanks!

Edited January 28, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I dunno. I'm going to really be bothered if Dean has to give up his being the best hunter on the planet because of the MoC. And for Dean to have to become a lesser fighter or only go to defensive moves in a fight.  That is just frought with problems for me.

 

Will it become Sam the Protector 24/7 because Dean can't risk fighting? I thought we already visited that when he was de-demoned. 

[SueB]

Try a different vision. The one where he pawns Cole while being a deamon - but not so mean.

[Pete Martell]

I found the dieting and teetotaling in this episode confusing, not so much because I didn't understand why Dean himself would do that (person feeling out of control overcompensates by acting like a control freak -- totally normal imo) but because I didn't understand what the show itself was trying to say (thematically, I guess). I mean, outside Dean's head, drinking and eating don't really have anything to do with the Mark, I don't think?

 

I think they were saying Dean was grasping at (celery) straws. Changing his eating and drinking habits didn't make a difference, but he was trying for anything to help.

 

I just read back through the thread and realized how many times I posted with the same type of comments. Sorry about that, everyone. Next week I'll try to limit it to a post or two and not clog the thread up. I didn't watch live so maybe that made it worse...

[SueB]

 

grasping at (celery) straws

A Dean-class pun!

[rue721]

I think they were saying Dean was grasping at (celery) straws. Changing his eating and drinking habits didn't make a difference, but he was trying for anything to help.

 

I just read back through the thread and realized how many times I posted with the same type of comments. Sorry about that, everyone. Next week I'll try to limit it to a post or two and not clog the thread up. I didn't watch live so maybe that made it worse...

 

IA that Dean is trying to control what he can, meaning that he's trying to control things like what he eats and drinks, because he can't control what the Mark is doing to him. Totally normal, believable reaction imo. Just ask virtually any teenage girl.

 

What was strange to me is that within the episode we were apparently supposed to be *worried* that he would fall off the wagon in terms of his eating and drinking (like in that scene where he's looking in the bar mirror and wondering if he should order a drink). But why should anyone be worried about that? It's not *actually* a bad thing to eat hamburgers or whatever. There's not *actually* a slippery slope from eating hamburgers to killing people willy nilly.

 

What really brought that to my attention was how everyone, even Dean to a certain extent, was so comparatively blasé about keeping Dean away from things that actually might be on that slippery slope. Like having him grab that gigantic hunting knife from his room, or going to guard the unrepentant asshole who destroyed Charlie's family, or even pairing him up with bad!Charlie instead of good!Charlie, etc.

 

I think the drunk driver was a real lost opportunity. If Dean had ended up going ballistic on him, on (bad!)Charlie's behalf, rather than just hanging out at the receptionist desk while bad!Charlie shut the door and stabbed the man (was that supposed to be similar to Dean shutting himself in with Metatron last week?), I think it would have made it clearer that the kind of bloodlust Dean is trying to contain right now isn't just normal human stuff, but actually something monstrous that the Mark is poisoning him with. And I think it would have made more sense to have the drunk driver mirror Dean than for bad!Charlie to be in that position, since carelessly causing ruin and then not giving a shit about it is more like what demon!Dean was doing, and therefore the kind of behavior I would think Dean would be most nervous about giving into, as well as being more in line with where the show has been going with Cole and Claire, etc.

 

Maybe an issue with Dean's arc atm is that the show might originally have been envisioning demon!Dean as being primarily a hedonist, but in the early episodes this season, imo Jensen Ackles didn't portray him that way *at all.* I think the performance was actually a stronger and more interesting version of demon!Dean and was/am happy that demon!Dean isn't just some gigantic wandering Id (especially since I can't actually believe that Dean's ~real desires~ are for things like beating people to death anyway. He's a hunter in his regular life, he gets plenty of that if that's what he wants), but maybe the writers aren't quite on the same page as the viewers (or at least this particular viewer, me! lol) right now because they're still thinking of demon!Dean in terms of who he seemed to be in the script, rather than who he ultimately seemed like on screen.

 

Anyway! As far as I'm concerned, Pete Martell, you should go ahead and post! For what it's worth, I don't think you're being repetitive or "clogging" the thread at all. Didn't even occur to me.

[7kstar]

IMO Dark Charlie was his (blatant) mirror and he kept trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.  He just wanted to see "Charlie" in Dark Charlie and couldn't accept that she would be so so dark. Because, of course, that meant HE couldn't be recovered.  Dean thinks he is Dark Dean right now and sees no GoodDean. So...Charlie (Dark and combo) busted him on a couple of his "moves" (was it denial and guilt...I can't remember), she knows him well.

 

I LOVED:

- The sense that we now have Charlie committed to the save Dean cause too.  It appears Cas is dedicated to that mission as well.  Which, when it comes right down to it, should be telling Dean something: he has people who love him and are not giving up on him.  I really like that message.

- That Charlie basically told Dean to stow his guilt shit and get over what happened.  He's not going to do that but I would have been pissed if she had been unwilling to approach Dean. 

- Dean is sooooo lost right now.  I don't think I've ever seen him struggle as much as he did tonight. I was so worried he was going to fall back into his drinking. I think he DID lose it in the end - AGAIN - with Charlie.  This is like the 4th or 5th time Sam's voice has stopped him.

 

I ENJOYED:

- Dean trying out the self-healing yoga crap.  But why the hell wasn't Sam there to kid him about it.  I think a part of Dean feels like this "cleansing" thing he's doing is worse than Hell. 

- Wrapping up the Oz story. I'd like Charlie back in the SPN universe and this seemed to put a good bow on it.

- Felicia Days performance as Combo Charlie.

- The wizard vs wizard bit.

 

 

MISSED OPPORTUNITY

- This was Star Trek The Original Series "The Enemy Within". Where the hell was the Star Trek reference?  At least NiceCharlie should have mentioned it. 

 

 The alcoholism symbolism was a bit heavy handed but I think we are looking at a Dean in "recovery".  And the physical stuff is just a tiny piece.  It's the guilt, denial, anger, and acceptance of himself that are the bigger issues.  With every recover there are relapses.  It should be hard, I think I have to watch it some more to pickup on all the bits.

 

The first place I went was the Star Trek Ep.  Kirk learned he couldn't be the captain without his dark side, I think Charlie needed to learn she was a better person whole vs. being all good.  So I guess that is why on some level it worked for me.  I think stronger directing was needed to bring out the depth of characterization and some places the writing just didn't help.

 

I think the writing really should have been more colorful than it was. Thompson is such a "cute" writer, but this was one time where he dialed it way back for some reason. I would have had "good" Charlie telling Sam and Dean that they should clean up their acts, stopping everything to help an old lady cross the street, etc. Yes it's silly and stupid, but it would have shown how the division caused her to be easily distracted and made more of a contrast. 

 

I'll be in the minority and say I actually sort of liked her work as "bad" Charlie. Not so much at first, but as it went along, I liked her detached demeanor and how she passed this off as just being truthful. I could see why Dean fell for it (the first time anyway). I thought Felicia Day and Jensen Ackles had a good rapport in these scenes. It also showed me why he and Charlie are so close - because he can connect to both sides of her. I'm glad they didn't have her as being wild and slutty, or even worse, trying to seduce Dean. I just wish they'd done more with "good" Charlie so it wouldn't have blurred together.

 

I also thought Felicia was good in her last scene when Sam was asking her about the integration of the two Charlies, and she struggled to talk about it. Probably my favorite part of the episode. 

(I can see this working and I thought the ending was the strongest part of the show.)

 

I don't think they're saying he's evil. I think they're saying he's losing control. 

 

Yes, they should do more to have people support Dean in intelligent ways (instead of the second consecutive episode where Sam lets him go off on his own for extended periods of time), but I don't think saying "we're here for you" means he's a failure and can't do it on his own. I think it's something Dean probably needs to hear, because he's spent his whole life thinking he's on his own and is just there to try to help other people.

I really liked Charlie's line, "How's that working for you?"  She's always been like the little sister to Dean and she was willing to prove that she wasn't going to stop looking.  Hunting down leads is something she can do and at the same time give her the space she needs to get over the issues when she looks at Dean.  It is one thing to get it in your head and even the heart, but she will have nightmares and that is when she won't handle it so easily being around Dean.  So I liked how they gave her time and space to deal with what happened.

 

She was going to look for other stuff that could help them; maybe she thought if she stayed it would just bring up bad memories for Dean (that and she has a lot of her own head problems).

Sam found a lead, a rare book.  so she took the info because she's good at that.  This allows Sam to focus on something else.  JMV

 

As Iguana points out:

 

Despite all the complaints of anvils, I think this is a case where they could have been a little more clear.

 

Thompson didn't dumb down Dean. Dean was feeding his "denial" up until the point where she killed the dude.  Then he stopped arguing with her. Step by step:

1. Dean's first reaction is to call Charlie and flat out deny this is the "real her" every time Sam brings up evidence (video, case file).

2. Even after finding out there are two "hers", he still not giving up on Dark!Charlie.  I loved his comment about how she practically "sparkles" because he does adore her. And he just can't accept that Charlie could be THAT Dark.

3. He wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt with the asshat because he WANTED her to defeat the darkness.  Yes...he's projecting all over her.  But this is not the first time that it took a BIG thing to completely shake his faith in someone he loves.  So he took away the weapon and presumed that he had neutralized the threat.  He gave her space (like Sam gives him space).  It was a huge mistake.  She was far more capable than he realized.  He should have known that.  I don't think he was dumb, I think he was clouded by judgement.

4. He's pretty pissed off and feeling hopeless (because Dark!Charlie IS that Dark)  when she shows at the bar (hence his mental battle with the alcohol).  But he deliberately told her enough to send her in a different direction.  It wasn't a slip.

5. He missed she was following him.  THAT is a dumb Dean move and a plot contrivance.  I'll give you that one.

6. In the fight, as Lateverian Diplomat so effectively pointed out, his response builds in stages. At the start, I believe he remembers he has to protect Good!Charlie. But when she whacks him into the railing and he get this litter smash in the nose, I think the high tone starts a bit.  He moves to put her down.  Now...WHY?  To keep her from getting to Good Charlie but also, I think, because his Mark if flaring.  And again, he then completely loses it when he starts pounding her face after she's down.

 

There was NEVER IMO any doubt Dean could take Charlie.  He was always holding back.  What apparently was not as evident and needed clarification was that he was trying desperately to have Dark!Charlie show self control.  And he kept giving her opportunities.  What some consider "dumb" was intentional on Dean's part and clouded by his own issues.  IMO only missing her tailing him was Dumb!Dean writing.

 

The Abstinence Diet:

- He's making a rookie mistake. Period.  Dean Winchester has had to go without food but he's never chosen to deny himself specific food or alcohol.

   

 

- So he's going for the no stimulant, health-aware, "clean" diet. No processed foods, no treats, no alcohol. He's out of his mind. And he's punishing himself.  This is penance.

- Anyone who's ever been on a diet can see he's completely unrealistic that he can make that work.

- It's a metaphor for no-violence with the Mark but also shows how desperate he is.

- Charlie herself gave the thesis of the episode: balance

- So while it was played for laughs to see Dean LITERALLY go for the self-healing yoga-ish crap, it's him trying to do the right thing but making some serious rookie mistakes.  Abstinence on alcohol is a good move.  The rest requires moderation.  I'm hoping he figures this out between episodes.

BTW -- that was Robert Singer's voice on the cassette tape.  Personally, given Singer's personality, I kept thinking they must have laughed a lot while recording that tape and filming that scene. 

 

Bottom line:

- I don't think Dean was dumb -- he was in denial that Charlie could be THAT Dark. They even had Charlie call it (denial) his signature move.

- He's wearing a hair shit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hair%20shirt  ) in the form of an Abstinence Diet. It's over the top and doomed to failure.  A combination of rookie mistake and his SECOND signature move - guilt.

 

I think this was actually better written than I think people are giving it credit for.

I didn't have a problem with him trying SAM's diet.  I saw it as that.  This is what Sam does to keep him calm...is it working...Nope.  It is also very absurd but I can see him thinking that is can work for Sam...maybe it could work for me?  Right?  Sometimes we think if we do what someone else is doing and they established last season that Sam teaches yoga...that it will help him stop.

 

The part with Dark Charlie, I saw him desperate to save her because of course that means he can be saved.  Also believing that she wouldn't lie to him and his brain finally caught up too late.  When you allow the heart to rule, it can mess up your judgment.  I get this, as I know someone that I tried for years to believe they would change, that they wouldn't lie to me, only to discover once again I was a chump.  It is a real life moment.

 

I agree that Dean not seeing his baby following is stupid.  But bad writing always shows up someplace in an ep, so I just went with it.

 

I'm not sure, but maybe the reason the show worked so well for me, is that I didn't watch it in order and I was really exhausted when I watched it.  So the pace worked and I didn't try to be that deep with it.  Seeing the ending first, I wanted to know how on earth Charlie got so beat up.  I started out in the bunker, so I rewound to the beginning and I found myself really liking it.  I might feel differently when I watch it later when I have more time, but for now I think it wasn't as bad as some say.  JMV!  :)

[rue721]

I didn't have a problem with him trying SAM's diet.  I saw it as that.  This is what Sam does to keep him calm...is it working...Nope.  It is also very absurd but I can see him thinking that is can work for Sam...maybe it could work for me?  Right?  Sometimes we think if we do what someone else is doing and they established last season that Sam teaches yoga...that it will help him stop.

 

Aww. OK, I can see that, that he was trying to act like Sam. That makes Dean's behavior during the episode make a lot more sense to me. That's also such a sweet idea that I'm too sappy not to hope it's true

 

So when Dean gave bad!Charlie the benefit of the doubt and let her go into the drunk driver's office while he hung back, only for her to lock him out and stab the drunk driver to death while Dean tried to break into the office to pull her back -- it was supposed to be like when Sam gave Dean the benefit of the doubt and let him go into the dungeon with Metatron while he hung back, but then Dean locked himself in with Metatron and threatened to stab him to death while Sam tried to break into the dungeon to pull Dean back?

 

The parallel wasn't supposed to be Dean:bad!Charlie, it was supposed to be Sam:Dean :: Dean:Bad!Charlie? And YOU ARE WELCOME for turning a goofy genre show's storyline into an SAT question.

[7kstar]

Aww. OK, I can see that, that he was trying to act like Sam. That makes Dean's behavior during the episode make a lot more sense to me. That's also such a sweet idea that I'm too sappy not to hope it's true

 

So when Dean gave bad!Charlie the benefit of the doubt and let her go into the drunk driver's office while he hung back, only for her to lock him out and stab the drunk driver to death while Dean tried to break into the office to pull her back -- it was supposed to be -- snip

 

The parallel wasn't supposed to be Dean:bad!Charlie, it was supposed to be Sam:Dean :: Dean:Bad!Charlie? And YOU ARE WELCOME for turning a goofy genre show's storyline into an SAT question.

Dean kept asking Sam questions as he was the expert, so yes it is how I think the show meant it and that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  :)

 

But isn't this what we do?  We take a fun show and twist, and squeeze every drop of possibility from it until it makes our heads hurt.  So I think they like giving us questions to see if we can turn it into a SAT question.  I mean what would be the fun in just enjoying the moment and not looking at all the issues we would fix, if we could be in control.  :)

[Altered Reality]

I've seen this episode twice now and while I want to like it (I like Charlie and have enjoyed her previous appearances) it's just not landing for me.

 

I think my biggest beef with it is the war in Oz and how "bad"Charlie (who seemed more "badass" than actually bad) won it single handed!  Really show? Really?  Oz is populated by all sorts of interesting, powerful and/or clever folk and you are saying none of them contributed?  Bah!

 

I have other issues, but I think they've been well covered in the discussion so far, so I won't bore you all blithering on.

 

On the good side?  This has me determined to track down the Oz books so I can re-read them.  I originally read them when I was about 7 or 8, so my memory of them is pretty spotty.  I'm afraid I remember the movie more.

 

Oh and I'd sign up to watch the boys work out.  For research purposes of course ;D

[DittyDotDot]

I've seen this episode twice now and while I want to like it (I like Charlie and have enjoyed her previous appearances) it's just not landing for me.

 

I think my biggest beef with it is the war in Oz and how "bad"Charlie (who seemed more "badass" than actually bad) won it single handed!  Really show? Really?  Oz is populated by all sorts of interesting, powerful and/or clever folk and you are saying none of them contributed?  Bah!

 

And the Wizard is a "Dark" Man of Letters who actually has magical powers. Bah, indeed! 

 

I too generally like Charlie in small doses, but I think it might be time to let someone else write for her--same with Garth and Adam Glass--I think she would benefit from being rounded out by another writer. I just don't think there's currently enough to her character for her to fill an episode where she takes up so much space, like she did in this one.

 

So when Dean gave bad!Charlie the benefit of the doubt and let her go into the drunk driver's office while he hung back, only for her to lock him out and stab the drunk driver to death while Dean tried to break into the office to pull her back -- it was supposed to be like when Sam gave Dean the benefit of the doubt and let him go into the dungeon with Metatron while he hung back, but then Dean locked himself in with Metatron and threatened to stab him to death while Sam tried to break into the dungeon to pull Dean back?

 

Point of clarification: Sam didn't let Dean go in with Metatron, He didn't even know Dean was in there until it was far too late. Sam only realized it when he couldn't find Dean.

[Julia]

Yep! The actor's name is Paul McGillion. Loved him as Beckett, though too!

 

He's a nice looking man. I don't understand why they keep doing strange things to his hair. 

 

This isn't the first time Charlie's been portrayed as girl-Dean, though. I thought the whole point of the Ren Faire episode was for Dean and Charlie to bond over horndogging the ladies.

[catrox14]

He's a nice looking man. I don't understand why they keep doing strange things to his hair. 

 

This isn't the first time Charlie's been portrayed as girl-Dean, though. I thought the whole point of the Ren Faire episode was for Dean and Charlie to bond over horndogging the ladies.

 

I never got that impression from LARP and the Real Girl at all. Dean didn't even look at any of the women there, Sam was hit on not Dean. Dean was all about saving Charlie, which he was doing here too.  The problem for me with how Dean is written here is that it's not really acknowledged or treated as Dean trying to save Charlie but was too focused on how it was showing us the parallel darkness in Dean.

 

I was hoping upon rewatch this episode would improve but for me it became worse. Because this time I paid much closer attention to the dialogue.

 

I'm rather irritated with what Charlie said about her soul. She was saying that the Wizard found the darkness in her soul which is how he split off Bad!Charlie from good!Charlie. I thought it was kind of canon that the human soul is "good" until it's corrupted by years and years of torture and torment in Hell making it a demon.  But are they now saying that everyone has a dark soul already?  I'm pretty flummoxed by that.

 

. It kind of really bothered me that Bad!Charlie was saying that Sam was good. That his good guy code was always his downfall. And I thought, wait, what???  Sam and Dean IMO are both good men trying to do good things, but Sam certainly did not operate on the good guy code when he set up Lester and tortured a demon. Not that I cared at all that Sam did those things, but it's like the show is whitewashing what Sam did in the episode. The pairing of Good!Charlie with Sam seems to be sending a pretty clear message, IF one didn't remember what Sam was doing to find Dean.  Of course it could just be foreshadowing Sam's possible downfall by the end of the season. 

 

Was the show trying to tell me that Dean is dark!Charlie and Sam is good!Charlie? 

[Julia]

I think that they're conflating soul with mind. So, the "bad" soul is the id, and the "good" soul is the superego, the same way it was in ST:TOS. Which leaves the ego out completely, weirdly, and I'm not sure how those two things are supposed to be functioning without a self to be integrated into, but hey, it's TV.

[Aeryn13]

I think the dialogue was really clumsy. Dark!Charlie could have put a qualifier on the statement, something like "these days, you are all good guy code" which would have acknowledged that the character wasn`t always purer than the driven snow. Come on.

 

Equally with her remark to Dean on how Sam held him back, presumably from being evil. The way it was phrased made it sound like Sam doesn`t have a dark side and never did a dark thing and Dean is naturally inclined to be evil, only Sam holds him back.

 

Now, even I don`t think that was the message Thompson tried to convey wholesale but that`s how the dialogue came across. If you want to parallel Charlie being split in two with Dean`s MOC storyline right now, then make it clear that the parallel is RIGHT NOW. And not for the entirety of the show. 

 

I did like the last scene between real!Charlie and Dean but her "I forgive you" was also a bit strange. Sure, she has a broken arm now but it`s not like an actual part of her didn`t have a part in that. How about an "I`m sorry, too"? The message of "forgive yourself" is all well and good but it has been two days. It`s not like Charlie taking responsibility for Dark!Charlie`s actions and apologizing would be terribly unhealthy.     

 

Same as the overly dramatic camera pans to "look at guilty!Dean, isn`t i horrible that he can`t let it go" were somewhat eyeroll-worthy. It is generally something the character struggles with, yes, but feeling guilty for two measly days is not out of order in the context. That is basic human decency. 

 

All that IMO waters down the point. What Dean needs is moderation not obliteration. If he still felt a crushing guilt after breaking Charlie`s arm - in a fight Charlie started, no less, and gave as good as she got - after two years, that would obviously be a "let it go already" scenario but the way they played it here seems like you should forgive yourself immediately and move on. Skip the accepting responsibility and apologizing to the people you hurt altogether. Like, really?