S05.E04: Episode Four

[helenamonster]

He also 'found' Isis when the dog went missing. Granted he was the one who hid her in the first place but Robert didn't know that and was very appreciative.

 

Actually, a village child found the dog in the shed. Donk only rewarded Thomas for what he perceived was his dedication to finding her. Technically, he was dedicated, but not out of some sense of altruism. If Isis had ended up hurt, dead, or lost forever, and he'd been found out, you know Donk would have killed him where he stood. Or asked Bates to kill him where he stood, more realistically.

[Andorra]

Just curious, Andorra, did they show the scene of Daisy telling him off in this episode, too, as they did here in the US?

 

Yes, I think that was in the episode.

[PRgal]

Not demeaning in the slightest, although it sometimes seems so to the recipients.  I am a Yankee born and bred who nowadays chooses to live in the South in my later years.  It was absolutely drilled into me as a child, this thing called manners, that anyone my 'superior', be it either by age or position, should be addressed as sir or mam.  A habit I could never break, nor would I want to do so.  Over the years I have had many a supervisor or boss who was my junior in years perhaps but nonetheless they always, always got a sir or mam from me.  Some of them were uncomfortable with it and would jokingly tell me to not answer them so.  I always explained to them that it was simply a matter of etiquette and manners, no matter their age next to mine they were, in fact, my supervisor and as such deserved my respect.  And I could no more NOT offer them this courtesy than rise and fly.  Proper manners is not a question of the times people...it is just mannerly.  I will correct a child in a heartbeat who presumes to call me by my first name, as pleasantly as possible but clearly.  I am an adult, you are a child, my name is Mrs. whatever.  Children these days are not taught such things.  Simple civility requires it.  JMO of course.

 

Completely agree.  My husband's friends from high school and university are really casual and they always asked their children to "say hello to PRguy and PRgal," not "Mr. and Mrs. Lastname."  I've attempted to correct them, but since I have not known them as long as he has, I'm not sure if it's my place.  My friends' kids tend to call me Auntie PRgal (if they're of Chinese descent) as it's the custom to do so.  My non-Chinese friends' kids tend to call me Mrs. Lastname or Ms. Maidenname.

 

Back on topic now.

[talula]

I'm not understanding how you all are seeing a Mary-Tom "ship". That is so not going to happen. They are close as in brother-sister / close work colleagues. I think she is very happy that Tom has supported her growth into a business woman, helping her take control of the fate of the Downton estate and legacy, and for supporting her increasing competency with Robert. A mentor, if you like. They have both grown together into competent business people and they share the role of parents of Downton's next generation. I don't see the relationship as any more than that.

I swear, in reading much of the supposition in these threads, that I'm watching a very different program. Maybe that's because I've grown up and lived in multiple cultures (with a very heavy foundation in "British" sensibilities)

ITA there's no way hot to trot Mary is going to be romantically interested in a guy that's like her brother. So far she has shown she likes the thrill of a conquest. There would be no conquest with Tom.

Then there's Tom always talking about getting away from the aristocracy...he's getting out of Downton since Sarah Bunting fired him up. Oh well that's the way I envision it.

Edited January 31, 2015 by RealityTVSmack1

[SusanSunflower]

I think the Mary/Tom stuff is based on the fact that they are now "sharing" intimacies which is something we have not seen either do much of with anyone ever. 

 

With various reasons to try to manufacture a tie-up-the-loose-ends in season 6 and/or 7, if the presumed end of series involves "happily ever after" for both Tom and Mary separately ... given the glacial progress of courtship in Downton-land and given the disappointing prospect of Tony, Blake, Ms. Bunting  (and that's not even to mention Edith's future happiness) ... matching Tom up with SOMEONE KNOWN saves a lot of character development machinations, matching Mary up with SOMEONE KNOWN ditto, and also Edith .. etc. -- the apparent alternative being introducing 2-3 new characters and rushing the courtship ...  Perhaps Mary and/or Edith can get knocked up and rushed to the altar - if need be.  Tom can stay single, as far as I care, so can Edith.  As the Keeper of the Downton Flame, having a husband really would be of benefit for Mary. 

 

Does Tom have any money of his own that we know of?  I'd guess he's paid some sort of salary or percentage ... but do we know? 

[millennium]

Stop the madness!   I can't brook a Mary-Tom relationship.   That man is the most boring character ever.    The show could actually save money by replacing him with a cardboard Flat-Tom.   They dress him up, stand him there, then talk at him, tell him how he should feel, etc.    Perhaps one day he will come to his senses and show up at dinner toting an Uzi but until that day arrives, his on-screen momentum will amount to one long, protracted yawn.   

[ennui]

"My friends' kids tend to call me Auntie PRgal (if they're of Chinese descent) as it's the custom to do so."

 

My family does that, and we're not Chinese. I'd guess it's generational, not cultural. I had "aunties" that were not biological.

 

Topic -- Tom and Mary would be a very poor match. They're like brother and sister.

Edited January 31, 2015 by ennui

[lucindabelle]

Yes. I canNOT a call my best friend from high schools father Richard. Can Not Do It.

I see him at theatre openings as he's on the board of a place I often review and it's always hello mr, best friend's father.

[dustoffmom]

I hear you Lucinda!!  Same way here.  My late Mother's best friend and I reconnected a couple of years ago.  I addressed her as Mrs. G(last name) as I had always done.  She laughed and said at our ages (I'm 63, she in her 80's now) we could forgo that didn't I think.  No, just like you I can NOT do it and laughingly told her so.  :)  Those old manners/habits just will not die once installed in your childhood brain.

[PRgal]

"My friends' kids tend to call me Auntie PRgal (if they're of Chinese descent) as it's the custom to do so."

 

My family does that, and we're not Chinese. I'd guess it's generational, not cultural. I had "aunties" that were not biological.

 

Topic -- Tom and Mary would be a very poor match. They're like brother and sister.

 

It depends.  My husband's Jewish (ethnically Eastern European.  His parents were born and raised in Montreal) and my MIL said that it would be completely inappropriate to call non-relatives "Aunt(ie) and Uncle" in their culture. 

 

Topic: I agree.  Tom and Mary would be really, really weird.  I mean, George and Sybbie would be cousins AND step siblings.  Would Sybbie still call Mary, Aunt(ie) Mary and George call Tom, Uncle Tom? 

Edited February 1, 2015 by PRgal

[Llywela]

 

Topic: I agree.  Tom and Mary would be really, really weird.  I mean, George and Sybbie would be cousins AND step siblings.  Would Sybbie still call Mary, Aunt(ie) Mary and George call Tom, Uncle Tom? 

My mum lost her mother when she was a little girl, and about 15 years later her father married her aunt, her dead mother's sister, who was then a divorcee with three sons. Weird, perhaps, but not creepy or icky the way so many here seem to believe - to me, that unusual connection has always been a normal part of family life. My mum always refers to her stepmother as auntie, still, but to my siblings and myself she is our Nan, the only grandmother we've ever known. Mum's three cousins became her stepbrothers, and she does call them her brothers; we call them our uncles.

 

I can't imagine any circumstances in which Mary and Tom would marry, however - each is impossibly far removed from what the other is looking for.

[JudyObscure]

Until 1907 it was against the law in England for a man to marry his wife's sister and until 1921 it was against the law for a woman to marry her sister's husband.  So Tom and Mary could legally marry but it still might have been frowned on by some people.  There are places in the Bible where it seems to be forbidden and it's the main reason why Henry VIII had to start his own church.  (Catherine had been his deceased brother's wife and the Pope was upset with him.) 

 

It would make for an interesting situation, unless Fellowes just decided to pretend that everyone's sensibilities were circa 2015 like he did with Rose's Jazz singer.

[Andorra]

I don't think Fellows will ever go there. He has said he would be "reluctant to destroy the special friendship between Tom and Mary". Allen Leech has said recently that he's always surprised when people want "Brary", because he thinks it would be "a very different show if that happened".

 

I think, even though I wouldn't completely hate the idea of "Brary", with so many suitors for Mary we really don't need Tom joining the group of her admirers and I think Tom and Mary's friendship is one of the best relationships on the show, that should stay as it is now.

[ZoloftBlob]

Plus frankly, I don't think Fellowes ever conceived the idea that Mary would marry someone without a title. Tom is good enough to be a friend, but not a lover.

[CeeBeeGee]

Wow.  So much to tackle.

1. I know that no matter how popular a character is, the fans will inevitably turn on them - almost like a reflex.  I don't think Bates has earned a lot of the hatred he now gets - if anything, they've all but turned his character invisible.  Just having him walk into a scene to say something to Anna, have her randomly mention Greene out of the clear blue sky (world's weirdest non-sequiturs, Anna) and have him walk out again.   And as we spent the entire second season proving Bates is not a murderer, I'm going to be bitterly disappointed if it turns out he is.  I think it'd be a lot more fun if it turned out that Anna actually killed Greene, and all her babbling all this time about being worried Bates will hang for it is just subterfuge.  Not likely, but I can dream.

...

5.  I want to punch Farmer Brown in the face.  Tell your goddamn wife the truth, you idiot!  And if Edith doesn't stop sniveling and turn back into the somewhat likable character she was in the first couple seasons, I may scream.  You're gangsta, Edith!  You narced out your own sister, you had a baby out of wedlock and you write columns about real issues.  Stop pouting and grab your life by the pubes, already.

 

1.  I adore Bates.  He won my heart in the first season and I loved how loyal he was last season, with the forged letter and all.  I am PRAYING he is not the murderer, can we PLEASE not go to that well again?  Anna would be the perfect culprit--it was be a genuine surprise and it would give her back some agency in her rape arc.

 

5.  YES, I want Gangsta Edith!  I adore my Edith.

 

Until 1907 it was against the law in England for a man to marry his wife's sister and until 1921 it was against the law for a woman to marry her sister's husband.  So Tom and Mary could legally marry but it still might have been frowned on by some people.  There are places in the Bible where it seems to be forbidden and it's the main reason why Henry VIII had to start his own church.  (Catherine had been his deceased brother's wife and the Pope was upset with him.) 

 

Renaissance history geek here.  Slight nitpick here.  Henry marrying his SIL wasn't the reason he had to form his own church--it was Henry's excuse.  Henry had gotten papal dispensation for the marriage, he was in the clear.  But after 15+ years with no living son, Henry was desperate for a way out, and he seized upon the old testament verse that seemed to condemn his marriage to Catherine.  The Pope actually resisted it as he obviously did not want to lose his "Defender of the Faith."

[JudyObscure]

Right, he had received papal dispensation earlier. The pope wasn't going to dissolve the marriage with Catherine so he could marry Anne, though, so he didn't want to keep Henry that much. Whether it was Henry's reason or excuse is up for debate, he may have sincerely believed that the reason he and Catherine weren't having lots of healthy children was God's punishment for an unlawful union.

[Wordsworth]

 

Fellowes isn't subtle,

 

 

No and he's not complicated either.  His stories are rarely surprising and generally play out the way we're being told. This is why Vera Bates inexplicably poisoned herself instead of being offed by Miss O'Brien to keep her from tarnishing Her Ladyship's family or anything else more likely than a grown woman eating a pie full of rat poison on purpose.  The show tells us what's going on until it's decided a specific storyline is over with.  Then it's done.  

 

So Bates didn't kill his wife.  He also didn't kill Green.  Neither did Anna.  Neither did Mrs. Hughes.  They're just not going to be the killers.  That's not how this show works.

 

Tony Gillingham was a great guy until the plot required him not to be.  I'd be on board with him killing Green.  If only because it can't be anyone else we know.  

 

Now, moving on.

 

Rude Miss Bunting.  The aristocracy knew how to treat rude guests.  Robert is just feeling powerless as his world changes around him.  He was raised to be a gentleman and run Downton for the benefit of the community.  Now, everything he knows is ending.

Mr. Carson is of the same overall generation and mindset.  So, he will act the same way.  Of course, he should totally understand why Mr. Molesley is upset about issues of precedent.  But, it's Molesley, after all.

 

But Miss Bunting's got to go.  In 1924, she might have felt the war was a waste, but there was no way for her to know how pointless it had been.  The English believed they'd help save Europe from German aggression. For the moment, they'd succeeded.  She wouldn't know for 15 more years how little they accomplished.  The last person to make Branson question his place was Edna Braithwhite.  Bunting's cut from a slightly more educated no less annoying cloth.  Those poor Drewe children.  I'm hoping she isn't the reason the Drewe boy got the Geography Ribbon.

 

Edith, Edith, Edith.  Was anything more clunky than that terrible scene in the last episode where Drewe pretends poor Marigold is a burden on the household and tries to get Edith to usurp Margie's sister as godmother?  Clearly, he and Edith hadn't planned this out much ahead of time.  Edith could've come there and said, "Look, I'm sorry I've been such a pain, but, I've been unlucky in love and, as a result, have had to focus on other things.  Among them, I've become quite interested in the welfare of women.  I'd like to help your family so that you can give your girls an even shake in the world"  Or something!

 

As it is, Drewe is just going to have to tell Margie, "I should've told you sooner.  Lady Edith came to me with some story about a friend who died and asked me to take in the baby because her parents didn't like the friend.  I thought there was something fishy about it, but didn't say anything at the time.  I didn't think it was a big enough deal, so made up a story about a friend of mine dying instead.  I shouldn't have done that.  I didn't realize she was going to be a nuisance.  She's clearly feeling guilty about not being able to raise the baby herself."  Or something!

 

And I'll take Mr. Bricker if Cora won't.  What a charming man!

 

As for Anna & Bates.  The shows keeps implying that Baxter knows something. She doesn't.  This is what Baxter knows:

 

* She knows that Cora overheard part of a conversation at the dreadful hotel restaurant between Anna & Bates regarding Anna having been hurt and Bates feeling guilty for not being able to protect her.  She was sworn to silence about that conversation.  She has no idea how Anna was hurt or that it was by Green.  She has no way of knowing that Bates or Anna had any cause to want harm to come to Green.

 

(Digression:  The only people who we know of who know Anna was raped are Anna, Mrs. Hughes, Mr. Bates and Mary.  We don't know what story Anna told Mrs. Hughes the night of the concert, but Mrs. Hughes clearly figured out Green was the attacker as early as the next morning.  Mr. Bates immediately accused Green of the crime when he found out what happened, but both Mrs. Hughes and Anna denied that it was him.  We've seen nothing to indicate that either of them admitted the truth to him.  Mary appears to be the only person who was told by Anna that it was Green.)

 

* Baxter saw Mrs. Hughes pull the train ticket out of Bates' overcoat.  She may or may not have seen what it was, but could not have understood the significance.  Because, after all, what I noted above: she does not know what happened between Green & Anna & Bates.  Who cares that Mrs. Hughes pulled a piece of paper out of Bates' overcoat?  

 

* She knows Mrs. Hughes told Anna that she found nothing of significance in Bates' pockets.  She knows Mrs. Hughes found something, but, for all she knows, it was just trash.  Miss Baxter has nothing to tell anyone about the death of Green because she doesn't understand what she knows.

 

So I'm not getting why the show seems to be indicating that she knows more than she does.  All she knows is that Anna was hurt, Bates feels guilty and Mrs. Hughes found a small paper something in Bates' coat.  The end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[helenamonster]

I don't know if it's the show so much implying that Baxter knows something as Baxter acting like she knows something. I agree that she really doesn't; I think she suspected/suspects something fishy between Anna/Bates/Green because of the weird looks they were all giving each other, but there's absolutely no way she could jump to the rape conclusion. She's admitted she doesn't know anything, and she's right, she doesn't. Nothing of substance, anyway. But she acts like she does. She's made comments, she gives Anna and Bates weird looks. She knows there's something not quite right there, but that's about the end of it. However, her demeanor and actions make it seem like she knows a lot more about everything. I think she just jumped to a lot of conclusions that might end up being correct, but she has no way of knowing any of them for sure.