S10.E10: The Hunter Games

[cassandle]

Thanks for this, my memory is spotty at best, I'd not have found that quote.  Sorry about the boss thing, hope it didn't cause to many problems.

Nope, I got Netflix closed down in time and she probably just figured I was listening to music on my headphones and typing something totally work-related.  Next time I'll pay better attention to footsteps in the hallway :)

[catrox14]

Dean didn't flinch in ki

 

If I remember right, Dean said that when he used the Colt on the demon that was beating the hell out of Sam when they went to rescue John in the first season.  He didn't care that there was a human in the meat suit, his only focus was on saving his family.

 

ETA:  Yeah, from Salvation:

 

Dean: You know that guy I shot?  There was a person in there.
Sam:  You didn’t have a choice, Dean,
Dean:  Yeah, I know, that’s not what bothers me,
Sam: Then what does?
Dean:  Killin’ that guy, killin’ Meg...I didn’t hesitate.   I didn’t even flinch.  For you or dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill…it’s just…uh….  It scares me sometimes.

 

(There's nothing like watching and transcribing an episode of Supernatural at work and having your boss come back early from a meeting and nearly catching you. Yikes.)

 

And I never understood why they ever had Dean go there with that line.  So he didn't flinch at protecting his family! So what? I guess that seems as manufacture as this business with Dean defending himself being turned into a massacre which ugh I LOATHE that characterization.  And really if Dean had used a gun and put one bullet in each of their hearts or heads IMO it would not have been perceived as so heinous.  It was bloody and gory but really he only sliced each of them like what twice? He didn't lop off anyone's head. IMO he was much worse when he killed Abaddon in his brutality but then she was a Knight of Hell so meh. Dean calling himself a stone cold killer IMO is exactly how Sam views Dean. I really do.

 

I think he loves Dean still and doesn't want to feel that way. It reminds me of when Dean saw Sam's full powers for the first time in the Halloween episode when Sam killed Samhain. Dean had known that Sam was exorcising demons with his mind in Metamorphosis and he was worried about Sam becoming a monster and that other hunters would want to kill him. But it wasn't until he saw him do it that he truly became frightened of and for Sam IMO

 

I think in Blade Runners,when Sam saw how the Blade affected Dean it was kind of like when Dean realized Sam was using his mind. But it was in King of the Damned that Sam saw the brutality of it like when Dean saw Sam kill Samhain. Also, Sam immediately jumped to the conclusion that Dean had killed Tessa so he was already thinking Dean was in a bad place but that got back burnered for the angel war and Sam just sideyed Dean a lot and the momentum was lost with stupid Bloodlines...sigh.

 

We are seeing what Dean is going through now and we can feel his torment and that is due to Jensen's work but IMO it's really Sam's POV in s10 of what Dean is going through.  IMO it's a similar concern laced with judgment and fear that Dean had in s4 about Sam's mind tricks.  I am starting to think that Sam is worried he might have to kill Dean himself if Dean can't manage this.

Edited January 23, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

So, that happened. I just wish I knew what that was. I really don't understand why none of them have considered finding Cain? Maybe they have and they just didn't show it, but I'd think I'd try that before I took Maravatron on a field trip. That was just plain stupid, IMO. Which I realize can happen from time to time with this show, so whatever. I have to say, the amount of things I've had to actively try and forget in the last couple of years is making my brain really fragmented...do any of you folks know of a good defragmentation tool so I can get my brain sorted out?

 

I don't even know what was going on with Clair in the end. She hooks up with these people that I don't even know what they were doing or why they were doing it (I get they were probably just whack-a-dos, but still). So, they make a plan to kill Dean (whatever) and Claire changes her mind because...? I just don't get what the point was in the end? I mean I do--Cass feels bad and is trying to atone, and Dean controlled himself in the end. Got it...it seems like there are a lot more interesting and less contrived ways to have shown this. It's probably just me though, right?

 

 

I liked Rowena in previous episodes. This one, she started to grate on me. I'm firmly in the 'can't imagine Crowley's falling for that' camp - I mean, I can see he might have unresolved mommy issues, but if she left him when he was 8, it'd be abandonment issues, not immediately believing every word she says because she mentally tortured him for a lifetime issues.  He'd better have some sort of long game going on here, because if he's just really that easily manipulated by super OTT acting - lame.  I like my Crowley smart.

 

I've been annoyed by Rowena from the beginning. I realized when watching this one, I don't think its the character herself, but the what they're giving her to do just doesn't interest me at all. The King of Hell should not have mommy issues. I realize they're trying to push Crowley as being only part demon now; still doesn't make me like it, though.

 

Did I forget a scene where it was explained that someone found a way to difuse an angel’s power? I don’t understand why Metatron is powerless in a devil’s trap in the bunker.

 

I guess the MoL handcuffs bind anything and everything under the sun, who knew? I have no idea how the MoL knew how to bound an angel since there hadn't been angels on Earth for something like 2000 years. Whatever, right?

 

That doesn't explain every other time Cas ignored Dean or Sam's suffering and need in s6. 

 

Cass ignored Dean in S6 because Cass was doing stuff he knew Dean wouldn't approve of and didn't want Dean to interfere. It wasn't that Cass didn't know that Dean was suffering or didn't hear his prayers, but he chose to ignore them at the time. Similar with S8, except Naomi was fucking with Cass's brain in S8 instead of him working a foolish game of his own. With Claire, he was actually looking for her and wanted to talk with her, but he could've ignored her just as well if he has so wanted to. I don't think that's exactly a retcon in this case. Actually, it kinda makes sense how Cass can always seem to find the boys even when they haven't prayed for him since they usually have warded themselves with hexbags and such. I wonder if they still have those angel sigils Cass carved into their ribs back in S5? Wait, did the Horrible Duo pull a retcon that actually makes sense to me? Will wonders ever cease?

 

Overall, mostly boring and nonsensical.

 

Hey, that's what I was going to say...are you me in an elaborate and much more eloquent disguise, supposedly? ;)

 

 

Dean and Metatron reminded me of that scene in season one of their exorcising Meg.

 

Funny, this episode had me thinking of The Devil You Know. Whereas Dean and Sam work with Crowley to find Braidy and Sam gets to have his showdown and exact some revenge. I do love my Bizzaro Supernatural tendencies! ;)

 

Scary Dean is not hot.  He makes me sad.  He reminded me of Dean from On the Head of a Pin, which is an episode I loathe.  Give me Goofy Dean or Smart Dean any day, not this Alpha Male moron threatening anyone and everyone in his vicinity.

 

I don't know why the writers of this show keep going back to torture, because it never works.  (Unless, of course, you literally put a pin in an angel's brain.  Maybe they should have called Crowley and used his torture with Samandriel on Marvatron.)

 

This. I do not find it at all hot when Dean tortures, it makes me sad to think how Dean used to use his instincts and intelligence to get what he needed. I'm not opposed to physical violence on my screen, per se, but what makes Dean such a badass and totally hot in my eyes is that even though I know he can always pummel someone to a pulp if he so desired, I also know he's smarter than this, and doesn't always need to.

 

What irritates me most about torture and this show is, I wish someone would acknowledge that torture is not a reliable way to get information--especially when it's only physical pain that's being doled out--since many people give lies and half-truths just to get the torture to stop. If they want to keep using torture on the show, they should have Dean really exhibit what he learned from Alistair on what effective torture is, not this pummeling, cutting and stabbing bullshit that just reduces the whole idea to nothingness. However, as always, I'm weird, so...

[catrox14]

Oh I suspect they will have Metadouche put one over on Dean and that whatever he tells them will be to Fuck them over. The show needs to remember that Cain went into hiding again and that HE will call when he wants Dean to kill him with the First Blade. And if the show had bothered to remember that then that would be the reason for Dean to get the blade from Crowley not because Metadouche told him too.

Sigh.

[ItsABear]

 

What irritates me most about torture and this show is, I wish someone would acknowledge that torture is not a reliable way to get information--especially when it's only physical pain that's being doled out--since many people give lies and half-truths just to get the torture to stop. If they want to keep using torture on the show, they should have Dean really exhibit what he learned from Alistair on what effective torture is, not this pummeling, cutting and stabbing bullshit that just reduces the whole idea to nothingness. However, as always, I'm weird, so...

 

That is so true.  If we know anything, physical torture produces false information.  

 

Do we even know for sure that Dean will need the first blade to remove the mark?  Can we trust anything Metatron said?

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I'm sure Marvatron is probably lying about the First Blade--most likely he's trying to get Dean to go nuclear again--but that information was given before the torture. Marvatron broke down and told them it ends with the source during the torture an I'm willing to bet that's the information that will prove to be useful. That's why it sticks in my craw a bit.

[cassandle]

I'm confused why they think anything about the MOC would be written on the demon tablet.  Has that nugget of information been brought up before and I missed it?  That's why they kidnapped Metatron in the first place, right?  Because he wrote the tablet?  I guess it sort of makes sense that a First Night would be mentioned on the tablet I just don't remember that coming into play before now and don't really understand why they need Metatron in the first place.  And what happened to the demon tablet?  Did it get destroyed?

 

Last season wasn't my favorite so I barely remember anything about it.

Edited January 23, 2015 by cassandle

[catrox14]

I think the writers are in love with Metatron and Armstrong and they will find any excuse to bring him back even though it makes no sense story wise to do so.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm confused why they think anything about the MOC would be written on the demon tablet.  Has that nugget of information been brought up before and I missed it?  That's why they kidnapped Metatron in the first place, right?  Because he wrote the tablet?  I guess it sort of makes sense that a First Night would be mentioned on the tablet I just don't remember that coming into play before now and don't really understand why they need Metatron in the first place.  And what happened to the demon tablet?  Did it get destroyed?

 

Last season wasn't my favorite so I barely remember anything about it.

 

I was wondering what happened to the demon tablet too...last I remembered they used it to trap Crowley at the end of S8. I can't recall it being mentioned since then. Why has it gone missing? I'm not sure why anything would be on the demon tablet about the MoC either, and I'm not sure why Marvatron would know a damn thing about it anyway. It was made by Lucifer and Marvatron is the scribe of God not Lucifer. I guess Marvatron might have some useful nuggets of information stored away in his head, but why would they think they could get him to spill the beans? This is exactly why I don't understand why haven't considered finding Cain--you know the guy that gave it to Dean and has been walking around with the damn thing for centuries. Sigh.

[catrox14]

I think its because Cain disappeared and he said he would come looking for Dean when he was ready and just assumed that they would not be able to find him.

[Pete Martell]

I think the writers are in love with Metatron and Armstrong and they will find any excuse to bring him back even though it makes no sense story wise to do so.

 

I think most of Metatron's appearances have been fairly logical by this show's standards. I didn't believe he would have fooled Cas so easily in season 8, but otherwise, he's mostly only appeared a few times a season, and has always been written as a desperately insecure lunatic who gets away with a lot of things because of being underestimated. Now he doesn't have any real power, but his role of pure malevolence on a show drowning in ambiguity still provides good drama. 

 

I didn't have a big problem with them going to him before looking for Cain either. They have no idea where Cain is. They knew where Metatron was. 

I was wondering what happened to the demon tablet too...last I remembered they used it to trap Crowley at the end of S8. I can't recall it being mentioned since then. Why has it gone missing?

 

I couldn't remember if Gadreel took it when he killed Kevin.

I guess I wasn't understanding your post, then? Because in this case, all three of them did pretty much go all relativistic and decided that it wasn't their place to judge, so it's clearly something they do, and yeah, it did muddy the issue quite a bit, JMO, but I don't get why Claire gets the benefit of the doubt and Dean doesn't.

 

Well, except that Sam is involved.

 

I guess I don't really see them as not giving Dean the benefit of the doubt. Cas was somewhat judgmental, yes, but they were mostly concerned about his actions rather than going, "Bad Dean, bad." Claire's in a very different situation than Dean (Cas doesn't have a strong relationship with her, she's willful, etc.) and at some point I guess Cas realized he just had to finally trust her to make her own decisions after she backtracked on her plan to kill Dean. 

I don't even know what was going on with Clair in the end. She hooks up with these people that I don't even know what they were doing or why they were doing it (I get they were probably just whack-a-dos, but still). So, they make a plan to kill Dean (whatever) and Claire changes her mind because...? I just don't get what the point was in the end? I mean I do--Cass feels bad and is trying to atone, and Dean controlled himself in the end. Got it...it seems like there are a lot more interesting and less contrived ways to have shown this. It's probably just me though, right?

 

The fantasy of revenge against Dean (which she mostly came up with because she was in pain and confused and was being egged on) was different from the reality. 

 

It was clumsy writing, but I think the whole purpose of it was to show that as Claire can take back her dark choices and still be salvaged, so can Dean.

What irritates me most about torture and this show is, I wish someone would acknowledge that torture is not a reliable way to get information--especially when it's only physical pain that's being doled out--since many people give lies and half-truths just to get the torture to stop. If they want to keep using torture on the show, they should have Dean really exhibit what he learned from Alistair on what effective torture is, not this pummeling, cutting and stabbing bullshit that just reduces the whole idea to nothingness. However, as always, I'm weird, so...

 

I don't really think we were supposed to think of Dean as a brilliant strategic mind in that scene. I think he was just supposed to be seething and the mark was taking over, and Metatron was a deserving target.

 

The show always gives out mixed signals about torture, depending on who is doing it, but generally I don't think they say torture is sexy or the right way to go.

 

I also don't know how many people are saying, "It's so hot to see Dean carving somebody open." I think people are talking about Jensen's charisma and strength in the scenes, body language, etc. not all that with Metatron being cut open and yowling.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Iguana]

The show always gives out mixed signals about torture, depending on who is doing it, but generally I don't think they say torture is sexy or the right way to go.

 

I also don't know how many people are saying, "It's so hot to see Dean carving somebody open." I think people are talking about Jensen's charisma and strength in the scenes, body language, etc. not all that with Metatron being cut open and yowling.

Yeah, as the founder of the YKYWH association, but speaking only for myself, what Pete Martell said.

 

I don 't enjoy watching Dean torture someone, but I do find it attractive when he shows power and strength, much of which is only shown through Jensen's acting talent.  I'm not advocating that it's a good idea, or saying I'm happy about it, and it's restricted to a fictional situation and character, but there it is.  In my defense, I also find goofy, silly, intense, sad, happy, etc. Dean attractive, so....

[DittyDotDot]

I couldn't remember if Gadreel took it when he killed Kevin.

 

Ahh, right. I had forgotten. That episode is up next on my re-watch, so I'll have to pay more attention to that.

 

I don't really think we were supposed to think of Dean as a brilliant strategic mind in that scene. I think he was just supposed to be seething and the mark was taking over, and Metatron was a deserving target.

 

Oh, I'm aware that he wasn't being a brilliant strategist in that scene, I'm just saying I would've actually appreciated it if he was. They've already done this scene to death, IMO, and I wouldn't mind them trying something new.

 

I don 't enjoy watching Dean torture someone, but I do find it attractive when he shows power and strength, much of which is only shown through Jensen's acting talent.  I'm not advocating that it's a good idea, or saying I'm happy about it, and it's restricted to a fictional situation and character, but there it is.  In my defense, I also find goofy, silly, intense, sad, happy, etc. Dean attractive, so....

 

Sorry I can't join you in the zeal here. Watching Dean lose control and wail on and growl at someone doesn't appear strong to me; I can only see it as weak and pathetic. But, like I said, I'm weird. I realize Dean losing control that was the point of the scene, but understanding what they were doing with it doesn't make me roll my eyes and/or yawn any less. Sorry.

[catrox14]

Yeah, as the founder of the YKYWH association, but speaking only for myself, what Pete Martell said.

 

I don 't enjoy watching Dean torture someone, but I do find it attractive when he shows power and strength, much of which is only shown through Jensen's acting talent.  I'm not advocating that it's a good idea, or saying I'm happy about it, and it's restricted to a fictional situation and character, but there it is.  In my defense, I also find goofy, silly, intense, sad, happy, etc. Dean attractive, so....

 

 

This is exactly it for me.  I HATED when they had Dean torture Alistair. I didn't  find Dean particularly hot during that episode because he was doing something he never wanted to do. And it was breaking him all along the way to do it. He got some payback but in the end he tortured for Castiel, not himself. 

 

ry I can't joinyou in the zeal here. Watching Dean lose control and wail on and growl at someone doesn't appear strong to me; I can only see it as weak and pathetic. But, like I said, I'm weird. I realize Dean losing control that was the point of the scene, but understanding what they were doing with it doesn't make me roll my eyes and/or yawn any less. Sorry.

 

 

But with Metadouche,  he's showing his own power and control as much as he can. Sure the Mark fuels it but Dean himself had every reason to torment Metadouche for things he did before Dean ever took on the MoC.

 

So I think that was really all Dean's choice. And that is what I found hot about that scene. There was no hesitation. Dean knew what he wanted to  do to Metatron and he would have if Sam hadn't interfered. I don't think Dean was losing control at all there. Was it smart? Not necessarily but IMO it was what Dean wanted to do to that POS

 

And Metatron is not weak or pathetic. He was the MOST powerful being in heaven and hell who plotted, schemed and destroyed Heaven. He stole Cas' grace after torturing Cas. He killed Naomi. He tried to get Cas to kill Dean, and then actually he  killed Dean himself.  Oh sure he was trussed up like a turkey but that turkey was a POS that deserves every terrible thing that Dean could do to him.

Edited January 23, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I don't think the show is in love with Metatron, I think Curtis Armstrong is probably good to work with and they can count on him to come back on the show when they want him to. So when they're in a pinch plot-wise or don't know where the mytharc story is going to go, they trot out Metatron again. That's been going on for something like 2 years now and I'm sick to death of it, personally. My issues with Metatron are not at all related to CA's performance, he seems to bring his all and I don't think anyone could be better in the part. It's just that Metatron as a character is shallow and useless, so I don't care anything about him and wish that the writers would use their imaginations a little more rather than dragging out the same old threadbare tricks again and again. 

 

The big problem with this episode, imo, is that humans don't work the way that the writers were trying to tell us they work. Nobody meets a teenage girl in a bar and pledge themselves to kill for her by the next day. Nobody who has finally "made it" only to find their long-lost parent reappear is all that confused about why their parent has shown up now. Nobody who has long established that someone is a liar and a killer is going to go to that person for trustworthy information, nor are they going to jump to complete Step 1 of that person's supposed plan before even hearing the rest of it or double checking its veracity.

 

If characters are behaving in ways that defy logic, then there needs to be some sort of explanation for that. What's strange about this episode is that there wasn't even an attempt to give explanations. There wasn't even an attempt to justify Claire's acquaintances deciding to go after Dean with a baseball bat and an ax, for example. I don't know if they didn't realize explanations were necessary, or if they just were too lazy to come up with them?

 

Speaking of incomprehensible, I'm honestly not sure how we were even supposed to react to Claire walking along the side of the road as Cas drove away. It seemed framed like a happy thing, with Claire joking about Cas needing to wear a tie? But a guileless, lonely and completely destitute kid being abandoned on the side of the road doesn't seem like a happy ending to me at all.

 

This. I do not find it at all hot when Dean tortures, it makes me sad to think how Dean used to use his instincts and intelligence to get what he needed. I'm not opposed to physical violence on my screen, per se, but what makes Dean such a badass and totally hot in my eyes is that even though I know he can always pummel someone to a pulp if he so desired, I also know he's smarter than this, and doesn't always need to.

 

Yes, I completely agree. Strength isn't strapping someone down and hurting them.

 

What I find confusing about Dean in particular this season is how he actually seemed like he took a harder line on certain things when he was a demon. How he got on Lester's case for having double standards? How he apparently liked to "degrade" women by making them act like they wanted him (or his money), and then used that to goad men into getting mouthy toward him so he could justify beating or killing those men? As his regular self, he never seemed to give double standards much thought (he's apparently fine calling women bitches or whores), and didn't seem ambivalent about talking about the random women he could get into bed or charm as conquests (he was even constantly trying to get Sam to get laid, too).

 

Regardless that Jensen Ackles is gorgeous, I can't say that I find Dean attractive, and I haven't for a long time. I'm just not sure if Dean is a good person. That he's willing to torture people, even though he *knows* it's wrong because *demons in Hell* taught him to do it, is a big part of that.

[catrox14]

 

s his regular self, he never seemed to give double standards much thought (he's apparently fine calling women bitches or whores), and didn't seem ambivalent about talking about the random women he could get into bed or charm as conquests (he was even constantly trying to get Sam to get laid, too).

I can't recall one time that human!Dean ever called a human woman a bitch, whore, what have you.  He has directed those insults to demons be they male or female. demon!Dean in a round about way said Ann Marie was a skank but he was also taking himself down with that line too.  He called a male vampire a bitch when he lopped off it's head.

 

Dean is a flirt. He's always been a flirt. He has women throw themselves at him all the time. But he does not judge them harshly at all.  He loves women IMO he loves sex and he doesn't judge those that are promiscuous.  He hooked up with the girl from the dating app that turned out to be trolling for souls but again, IMO he didn't disrespect her he just said no cash for ass.

 

He was disrespectful as a demon to women but not as regular!Dean.

 

As to strapping down Metatron or other demons to torture them, I don't see the problem considering what demons have done to Dean's family and what Metatron did Dean and Cas. I guess I don't mind the eye for an eye here at all.

[ItsABear]

 

The big problem with this episode, imo, is that humans don't work the way that the writers were trying to tell us they work. Nobody meets a teenage girl in a bar and pledge themselves to kill for her by the next day.

 

When I was watching this, I thought there was originally more in this story that had to be cut either for time or some other reason.  It seemed that the way the guy and woman were exchanging looks seemed like they had a plan in mind, but in the end, whatever it was, got dropped.  I was just incredulous that Claire was talking about people killing her first dad, then killing her second dad, and neither of them were the least bit shocked about these murders. 

[Julia]

I can't recall one time that human!Dean ever called a human woman a bitch, whore, what have you.  He has directed those insults to demons be they male or female. demon!Dean in a round about way said Ann Marie was a skank but he was also taking himself down with that line too.  He called a male vampire a bitch when he lopped off it's head.

 

I think that by choosing gendered terms to insult men Dean is saying something about his opinion of women. FWIW. 

[Pete Martell]

Sorry I can't join you in the zeal here. Watching Dean lose control and wail on and growl at someone doesn't appear strong to me; I can only see it as weak and pathetic. But, like I said, I'm weird. I realize Dean losing control that was the point of the scene, but understanding what they were doing with it doesn't make me roll my eyes and/or yawn any less. Sorry.

 

I think Dean is both weak and strong, which is what makes him so interesting to me. The shot of Dean walking into the dungeon - the way the lighting framed his face, the sense of foreboding and menace...I thought that shot was gorgeous, and Jensen looked gorgeous. When it came down to it and he lost control, I wasn't thinking, "That's so hot," but the overall demeanor and body language leading up to that is what stood out for me.

Nobody who has long established that someone is a liar and a killer is going to go to that person for trustworthy information, nor are they going to jump to complete Step 1 of that person's supposed plan before even hearing the rest of it or double checking its veracity.

 

That's how this show has worked for a long time. Dean and Sam operate in a world mostly full of liars and killers. They often go along with that to suit their own goal. Starting in season 5, Dean and Sam repeatedly trusted Crowley even when they knew he was a liar, a murderer, and extremely dangerous, because they needed anything they could get. If you mean trusting Metatron, they're in the same boat - they don't trust him, but they don't have anything else to go on.

Speaking of incomprehensible, I'm honestly not sure how we were even supposed to react to Claire walking along the side of the road as Cas drove away. It seemed framed like a happy thing, with Claire joking about Cas needing to wear a tie? But a guileless, lonely and completely destitute kid being abandoned on the side of the road doesn't seem like a happy ending to me at all.

 

Within the show's framework, it's happy, because she regained control of herself and got out alive, and can now, ideally, have some semblance of a life. Within the real world, it really isn't all that happy. 

[catrox14]

I think that by choosing gendered terms to insult men Dean is saying something about his opinion of women. FWIW. 

 

Sam uses the same insults too.  Women in the show call each other bitches.To me, that doesn't say anything at all about Dean's view of women as much as it does about the limitiations of the writers in their go to insults.

 

I look at how Dean treats the human women in his life for what he thinks about women. I look at his relationships with Ellen, Jo, young Mary, Cassie, Jaime, Lisa, Charlie even Anna for what Dean thinks about women. And I think he thinks very well of women not as play things or objects but as human beings. Dean is not perfect by any means but just because he defaults to son of a bitch or bitch when he fights a demon doesn't mean he has a poor view of human women in general at all.  YMMV

[Pete Martell]

What I find confusing about Dean in particular this season is how he actually seemed like he took a harder line on certain things when he was a demon. How he got on Lester's case for having double standards? How he apparently liked to "degrade" women by making them act like they wanted him (or his money), and then used that to goad men into getting mouthy toward him so he could justify beating or killing those men? As his regular self, he never seemed to give double standards much thought (he's apparently fine calling women bitches or whores), and didn't seem ambivalent about talking about the random women he could get into bed or charm as conquests (he was even constantly trying to get Sam to get laid, too).

 

I don't remember him needing an excuse or justification to beat on the bouncer at the strip club.

 

Demon Dean was mostly about clinging to hedonism to ignore that he felt dead inside. Not that different from regular Dean, who for years used alcohol or sex or his relationship with Sam to do the same, and then took on the mark in part to avoid facing this part of himself.

 

I don't think wanting to have sex with women is a double standard for Dean. He sometimes treated women with disrespect but never enough to where wanting to be with them would somehow be hypocritical.

[catrox14]

I don't remember him needing an excuse or justification to beat on the bouncer at the strip club.

 

Demon Dean was mostly about clinging to hedonism to ignore that he felt dead inside. Not that different from regular Dean, who for years used alcohol or sex or his relationship with Sam to do the same, and then took on the mark in part to avoid facing this part of himself.

 

I don't think wanting to have sex with women is a double standard for Dean. He sometimes treated women with disrespect but never enough to where wanting to be with them would somehow be hypocritical.

 

demon!Dean did what he wanted when he wanted.  Defending Ann Marie's honor was the excuse to beat the crap out of someone because he wanted too. If the bouncer had just looked at Dean cross-eyed for any reason he would have punched him.  Dean was beating the crap out of people because he wanted to really. 

 

I'm trying to think of when human!Dean was disrespectful to his sex partners or potential parnters. Seriously. Is flirting with women disrespectful? I don't think it is because once they don't reciprocate he's all okay and he moves on. I'm trying to understand what woman he was disrespectful to in this episode who wasn't actively trying to kill him...I'm kind of confused.

Edited January 23, 2015 by catrox14

[Altered Reality]

What irritates me most about torture and this show is, I wish someone would acknowledge that torture is not a reliable way to get information--especially when it's only physical pain that's being doled out--since many people give lies and half-truths just to get the torture to stop. If they want to keep using torture on the show, they should have Dean really exhibit what he learned from Alistair on what effective torture is, not this pummeling, cutting and stabbing bullshit that just reduces the whole idea to nothingness. However, as always, I'm weird, so...

 

I don't think you're weird, I wish they'd acknowledge this too.  It bugs that they don't.

[Pete Martell]

I was talking about the bouncer in episode 2 (Reichenbach).

 

I think Dean sometimes is dismissive toward women - I wasn't all that thrilled with how he was with Suzy in that awful "Rock And A Hard Place," but I think sometimes it's just the show's general attitude. For instance, Cas and Dean talking about how "hot" April was (the woman in the awful "I'm No Angel"), even though she'd been possessed and was raped and murdered.

[catrox14]

I was talking about the bouncer in episode 2 (Reichenbach).

 

I think Dean sometimes is dismissive toward women - I wasn't all that thrilled with how he was with Suzy in that awful "Rock And A Hard Place," but I think sometimes it's just the show's general attitude. For instance, Cas and Dean talking about how "hot" April was (the woman in the awful "I'm No Angel"), even though she'd been possessed and was raped and murdered.

 

I knew you meant the bouncer in Riechenbach. I was trying to figure how Dean's  treatment of women related to this episode.  I think we just digressed.

 

I don't think Dean is particularly  dismissive towards women. Nor did I think he treated Suzy poorly either. He was kind of skeevy but once he realized she was not going to be someone he could be with he put his attempts at seduction on the back burner. Once he realized who she was and he made it clear he knew of her she came onto him. 

 

 

April raped and murdered Castiel. I hated how they handled Cas being raped like it was all good that April was hot. I never understood that whole thing.  Eep.

Edited January 24, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Regardless that Jensen Ackles is gorgeous, I can't say that I find Dean attractive, and I haven't for a long time. I'm just not sure if Dean is a good person. That he's willing to torture people, even though he *knows* it's wrong because *demons in Hell* taught him to do it, is a big part of that.

 

I don't know, I still think Dean's a good man. For the most part he's trying to help people and do good. He doesn't always get it right, but I still think he's a good man. 

[Pete Martell]

April raped and murdered Castiel. I hated how they handled Cas being raped like it was all good that April was hot. I never understood that whole thing.  Eep.

 

The thing that possessed her did. She herself was a victim. But I guess that's off-topic, aside from being written by the same people who did this.

[catrox14]

Ahh..what is up with the Nepotism Duo? They write some of the worst episodes. 

[Pete Martell]

They seem to have moved up from horrific to dull with occasional bad spots. 

 

I do think they write a certain type of female character well (Naomi in "Taxi Driver," Abaddon in "King of the Damned," and I thought the writing for Rowena in this episode was actually good, even if the execution was a little iffy). 

 

That's about it.

[Aeryn13]

 

I can't say that I find Dean attractive, and I haven't for a long time. I'm just not sure if Dean is a good person. That he's willing to torture people, even though he *knows* it's wrong because *demons in Hell* taught him to do it, is a big part of that.

 

I pretty much disagree with every word. Dean is having a dark arc right now but he has done nothing whatsoever that makes me think he isn`t a good person. The torture is a show trope now and while Dean often does it, the other characters, namely Sam and Cas, either partake, ask him to do it or stand by and watch in silence in the majority of the cases. Sometimes, they do it, too. Maybe the writers think that keeps their little hands pure and clean but it does anything but. I admire Dean more for getting his hands dirty and not ask the others or stand in the corner or whatnot.

 

Of course, I also don`t think they are always wrong to torture. If they have a captured enemy and need quick intel, what else are they supposed to do? Trickery and subterfuge is a good way but you can`t pull it off all the time and the show has long since entered the big leagues in terms of threats. When they were hunting ghosts and wendigos, there was no need for that but now we`re constantly dealing with the King of Hell that and droves of angels this. Even lots more inventive writers would have a hard time keeping the guys hands clean.

 

And from what we learned so far, in hell you are tortured to turn you into a demon and basically for fun, angels apparently torture out of "righteousness" aka why did Gadreel and that Abner guy after being thrown in captivity had to be tortured for day in and day out? What purpose did it serve? It didn`t solve any threats or anything.

 

When Dean tortures or the Winchesters in general do, it is because they want intel. Sometimes, payback creeps in or a certain rage Mark might take over but they have never taken a demon or angel captive and just tortured them for kicks for a long time. With the bunker now, they could.     

[catrox14]

Sam, Cas and Dean have all been tortured.  And really to some degree, exorcising demons from their meatsuits, is torturing the meatsuit and the demon.   So for me, torture IRL no thank you but in this show meh.

 

 

 

Do we even know for sure that Dean will need the first blade to remove the mark?

 

I think its fair to think yes. Metatron also said it was one of many steps.  So I'm sure they'll drag this out until the finale.

Edited January 24, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I don't know, I still think Dean's a good man. For the most part he's trying to help people and do good. He doesn't always get it right, but I still think he's a good man. 

 

I'm trying to understand what woman he was disrespectful to in this episode who wasn't actively trying to kill him...I'm kind of confused.

 

Taking this to All Episodes Talk.

[DittyDotDot]

When Dean tortures or the Winchesters in general do, it is because they want intel. Sometimes, payback creeps in or a certain rage Mark might take over but they have never taken a demon or angel captive and just tortured them for kicks for a long time. With the bunker now, they could.     

 

But in the case of this episode, Dean was not torturing for the mission. The mission was to not torture, but to try and work Marvatron in order to get useful information. Dean only started carving into Marvatron because he could and he wanted to get a little payback. I don't think he even cared if Marvatron had just spewed all the information they needed, he was going to carve on him anyway, IMO. Yes, the Mark was pushing Dean, but I think Dean was pushing Dean quite a bit too.

 

I think the show usually trots out the torture simply to show how far gone Dean is, and we're supposed to get all worried about him because he's resorting to torture.  But, it's hard for me to get all concerned about Dean if there's no moral reason not to torture (Marvatron is an ass and apparently diserves it) and/or the torture is actually effective (Marvatron broke and gave useful information after Dean lost control).  Win, win; Dean should do this all the time, right? Oh wait, that's not the message they wanted to send...Hmmm?

 

I guess, I just found it rather contradictory and pointless, in the end. Add on top that Dean appeared more like a bully picking on the weakest kid on the playground, just because he could, and I'm basically rolling my eyes the whole time.

[Aeryn13]

 

Add on top that Dean appeared more like a bully picking on the weakest kid on the playground

 

Just because Marvatron looks tiny and unassuming doesn`t make me forget he is an angel. Which means technically stronger than a human. Though I guess since MOC!Dean can beat him without breaking his hand a la when Dean punched Cas that one time, he did a get physical upgrade.

 

But it`s the same for me when Dean or any other hunter is fighting a female demon or supernatural creature. I don`t see "man beating up woman" there because I never forget the supernatural aspect of it.

 

Last year Metratron was on top and whatever his plan was (making the world love him?) and because he had hubris coming out of his hiney, he is a prisoner now. He wasn`t going to tell them anything simply to help, he shows no contrition or wish to better himself at all. He turned everything back on Dean as if, oh, he didn`t give the order to kill Kevin or killed Dean. So I can not feel the least bit bad Dean resorted to more drastic measures with him.

 

But yes, Dean lost control during the torture due to the MOC. Cain killed probably thousands of people when he lost control with the Mark and the Blade. It`s therefore not easy to control it and the level Dean has managed so far is pretty impressive. My point was more, they could have imprisoned Metatron in the bunker and just tortured him for fun every day since the Season 9 Finale. That is apparently something angels are big on, torturing their prisoners. It is also something demons obviously do. Dean however has not done this in ever.          

[DittyDotDot]

Just because Marvatron looks tiny and unassuming doesn`t make me forget he is an angel. Which means technically stronger than a human. Though I guess since MOC!Dean can beat him without breaking his hand a la when Dean punched Cas that one time, he did a get physical upgrade.       

 

I wasn't referring to Marvatron's physical stature and I never forgot Marvatron is an angel, but Dean had him tied up and bound with cuffs which had him utterly powerless at the time. If they want me to see Dean as being strong in that scene, they need to show that Dean was on a more equal footing with Marvatron.   

 

I realize your point was they could've been doing it for kicks every day. My point was, Dean stooped to the angels level and doing it only once doesn't make me see it as any less of a stooping in my eyes.

[Aeryn13]

 

If they want me to see Dean as being strong in that scene, they need to show that Dean was on a more equal footing with Marvatron.

 

I don`t think that`s possible within the scenario. If you have a foe physically more powerful than you, they should be bound and powerless. And if you need info from them they are not willing to give, then force can be the only way to take.`Now the key is that the torturer should always keep the level head or not get emotionally involved so in this instance, it shouldn`t have been Dean doing the torturing. Because gosh golly, how much is he supposed to control himself? With his current supernatural condition, he shouldn`t be put in certain situations. That would be like throwing DemonBloodSam at the height of his addiction into a giant barrel filled with demon blood. Noone would have been surprised at negative results then either.

 

But that is also why I think the migitating circumstances do matter a great deal. Dean is not completely Dean right now and can`t be judged as completely Dean. I don`t buy that the Mark brings out some hidden evolness inside him. Does he have dark instincts as just Dean? Sure, he has a warrior personality so that it is part and parcel of that. So the Mark has something juicy to grab on there.

 

What I see as impressive strength with Dean is how much he manages to hold it together still. He lost it with a couple of guys who attacked him and he lost it with the creepy wanker who killed him but he didn`t lose it for a majority of the time. The Mark does not make him kill-crazy 24/7 and I think that is a testament to Dean.

 

The torture itself was "TV-hot" to me. The lighting, the looks, the charisma of the actor, I find that appealing. It`s a badass moment in terms of "woohoo, look" for me compared to say when Dean killed Eve, the mother of all monsters. She held him down and bit into him and physically completely subdued him so it didn`t "look" badass but it was because he defeated her through ingenuity anyway. Not sure if I`m explaining it well but I can enjoy both displays of bad-assitude.

 

A character can also be completely in charge while being imprisoned/tortured (Alistair emotionally always held the cards even while experiencing physical pain, soulless!Angel played his friends like a fiddle over on Angel when they captured him, Vampire Diaires Damon is probably tortured more than he does torturing and he looks more badass in the former scenarios) and Dean certainly is one to go for bravado and quips when he is at another`s mercy. But everyone now and then I like to see my characters coming onto the scene and wreck shit up. And if it`s someone like Metatron who annoys me so greately, I will cheer at the moment someone takes a blade to him and slices and dices.   

 

I think the torture king of TV used to be Jack Bauer over on 24. It became almost amusing to me but I never minded those scenes because ironically the concept of "must solve this in 24 hours or else" meant you needed someone like him who was ruthless to the ninth degree. Thinking about it, there is lots of torture and violence in shows I watch, moreso than in Supernatural in some, and some is hot, some is just there, some is boring but nothing really bothers me. Oh, except the Theon torture in Game of Thrones one Season back. That was like the world`s most repetitive and off-putting snuff porn ever. Compared to that everytime Dean ever tortured was "marry me" material.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Happytobehere]

Dear show,

Curtis Armstrong even in the smallest of doses is unbearable.

Do you have a point with Rowena because all those scenes with her alone plotting were boring.

Claire as a character in multiple episode, just why? The actress just doesn't work. Kill her, write her off, whatever, but don't ever subject us to the character/actress again.

What if anything plan is there for Castiel? It just seems like he is just aimlessly there at this point and I have loved Cas from the moment the character was introduced.

JA's performance as Dean continues to be the only glue that holds this show together.

[DittyDotDot]

I don`t think that`s possible within the scenario. If you have a foe physically more powerful than you, they should be bound and powerless. And if you need info from them they are not willing to give, then force can be the only way to take.

 

While I do agree with you on some level, for me, the difference is, I didn't get the impression Dean's motivations were mission-only, nor did I think it was the only course of action left for him. From the moment he walked in that room and locked the door so no one could interrupt him, I knew he was going to be torturing Marvatron whether he needed to or not.  I think Dean wanted payback so he took it, getting information didn't seem all that high on the priority list to me. I also think he would've still tortured Marvatron even if Marvatron had coughed up the info he wanted and he obviously had no intention of stopping.

 

So, I can forgive Dean losing control to the Mark because once he started down a road I understand he couldn't stop, but I can't forgive him walking into that room in the first place when he knew, full well, he should just stay away. Dean is smarter than this, IMO.

[catrox14]

IMO, the Angels weren't going to mete out any jusice on Dean's behalf. Dean was literally killed by Metatron. It wasn't an accident it was murder.  You think an angel that was backing Metatron wouldn't have gone after Dean if Dean had killed Metatron?  I think they would have and would have tortured Dean to boot. 

 

I just don't care at all that Dean tortured Metatron. Metatron tortured Castiel and slit his throat and stole his grace. That right there is enough motivation for Dean to go to town on Metatron.   I just have zero problem with what Dean did.

[Aeryn13]

 

but I can't forgive him walking into that room in the first place when he knew, full well, he should just stay away. Dean is smarter than this, IMO.

 

It was impulsive and unwise but it`s not something that bothers me unduly. And I think the Mark`s influence meant he could not stop himself from going there in the first place. In the end, I feel it`s nothing I think the character needs to be forgiven for because while strategically it might have been a mistake, ultimately I see it as "big whoop".

 

Also when Dean was in caretaker mode, I do believe he was more involved than Sam and Cas have been so far. A lot more. First they leave Dean alone in that house with the thugs and here they gifted him with the opportunity to go in and work Metatron over. He is the one with the supernatural influence now, at least TRY to be a bit more vigilant about it. Maybe they or Sam found Dean`s way to be smothering and bully-ish but this la-di-da, followed by "OMG, Dean" followed by "can`t you just, I don`t, ignore your supernatural problem?" doesn`t seem very effective either. No wonder Dean thinks he is supposed to do everything on his own because well, that seems to be the expectation.  

Edited January 25, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Julia]

Curtis Armstrong even in the smallest of doses is unbearable.

I give him a lot of credit for being willing to go there playing a character who's a godawful annoying whiny psycho asshole.

 

On the other hand, this is not my first time on the go'round with Curtis Armstrong, who played a remarkably similar character in his breakthrough role almost thirty years ago. And with all due respect to the raft of thirtysomething producers flailing for a way to justify their fear of canon ships, they could learn a lot more from the tidal wave of fail which drowned Moonlighting when the writers tried to make Herbert Viola happen. Talk about your curse...

 

I'm sorry he's typecast. I'm sure he's a lovely person. I experience him like trying to chew tinfoil.

[Pete Martell]

It was impulsive and unwise but it`s not something that bothers me unduly. And I think the Mark`s influence meant he could not stop himself from going there in the first place. In the end, I feel it`s nothing I think the character needs to be forgiven for because while strategically it might have been a mistake, ultimately I see it as "big whoop".

 

Also when Dean was in caretaker mode, I do believe he was more involved than Sam and Cas have been so far. A lot more. First they leave Dean alone in that house with the thugs and here they gifted him with the opportunity to go in and work Metatron over. He is the one with the supernatural influence now, at least TRY to be a bit more vigilant about it. Maybe they or Sam found Dean`s way to be smothering and bully-ish but this la-di-da, followed by "OMG, Dean" followed by "can`t you just, I don`t, ignore your supernatural problem?" doesn`t seem very effective either. No wonder Dean thinks he is supposed to do everything on his own because well, that seems to be the expectation.  

 

I think it's a mixed bag, because I feel like if Sam and Cas did get more involved, he'd probably chafe (as Sam chafed at Dean's involvement), but I'm not sure which way would be best. 

 

I don't really think bringing Metatron in was the worst idea - I think Dean needed to face Metatron. The real mistake was leaving Dean alone with him. 

 

I think Sam telling Dean he can control if he tries was a decent idea, because it showed Dean that Sam has faith in him. And ultimately he did manage to control it, for now at least.

[DittyDotDot]

Aeryn13, on 24 Jan 2015 - 5:58 PM, said:Aeryn13, on 24 Jan 2015 - 5:58 PM, said:

It was impulsive and unwise but it`s not something that bothers me unduly. And I think the Mark`s influence meant he could not stop himself from going there in the first place. In the end, I feel it`s nothing I think the character needs to be forgiven for because while strategically it might have been a mistake, ultimately I see it as "big whoop".

 

Also when Dean was in caretaker mode, I do believe he was more involved than Sam and Cas have been so far. A lot more. First they leave Dean alone in that house with the thugs and here they gifted him with the opportunity to go in and work Metatron over. He is the one with the supernatural influence now, at least TRY to be a bit more vigilant about it. Maybe they or Sam found Dean`s way to be smothering and bully-ish but this la-di-da, followed by "OMG, Dean" followed by "can`t you just, I don`t, ignore your supernatural problem?" doesn`t seem very effective either. No wonder Dean thinks he is supposed to do everything on his own because well, that seems to be the expectation.  

 

I wasn't trying to imply this is all on Dean and/or that it's totally unforgivable. Yes, I realize Dean's under the thumb of the Mark of Cain, but he's also aware he's under the thumb of the Mark Of Cain and he doesn't seem to be taking any precautions to minimize his triggers either. A lot of Dean being able to control the Mark is going to mostly be on Dean, IMO. He's going to have to learn to recognize the triggers and learn to avoid them. Short of locking Dean up in the dungeon--which didn't work out so well before--there's little Sam's going to be able to do to help Dean on that front. I'm assuming a big part of how Cain learned to control the Mark was he retired and stayed away from anything that triggered that need and want for the kill.

 

I agree Sam isn't taking any precautions, though, and that annoys me greatly. At the very least someone should've been standing watch over Marvatron--not just for Dean reasons, but also because Marvatron could've escaped (actually, I was almost sure he would. So kudos, show, in surpassing my expectations on that one.) How many times have they thought they had something/someone locked up and, surprise, surprise escaped? That was just totally foolish, IMO. 

 

But to bring this back to my actual point, Sam does need to be a more proactive, IMO, with regards to Dean. He also needs to start seeing what Dean's triggers are and helping him avoid them. I don't think Sam realized until now just how not in-control Dean was of the Mark. So, I'm hoping this will be the turning point for Sam and he'll start being a better helper to Dean. Not holding my breath though, we still got quite a few episodes until the finale and I know how the show loves to drag out it's melodrama.

Edited January 25, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[RileyMay]

I agree Sam isn't taking any precautions, though, and that annoys me greatly. At the very least someone should've been standing watch over Marvatron--not just for Dean reasons, but also because Marvatron could've escaped (actually, I was almost sure he would. So kudos, show, in surpassing my expectations on that one.) How many times have they thought they had something/someone locked up and, surprise, surprise escaped? That was just totally foolish, IMO. 

 

But to bring this back to my actual point, Sam does need to be a more proactive, IMO, with regards to Dean. He also needs to start seeing what Dean's triggers are and helping him avoid them. I don't think Sam realized until now just how not in-control Dean was of the Mark. So, I'm hoping this will be the turning point for Sam and he'll start being a better helper to Dean. Not holding my breath though, we still got quite a few episodes until the finale and I know how the show loves to drag out it's melodrama.

 

This is what annoyed me most. Sam's just seen Dean lose it with Metatron and instead of watching Dean he lets him go off on his own to meet Claire. Why?? He could have at least gone with him and stayed in the car.

 

If Sam and Cas don't want to watch over Dean then go get Kevin (Can't remember - is Heaven still closed?) He can be Dean's Jiminy Crickett

[SueB]

I've been thinking about random skeezey murder couple and trying to figure out their game.  I've had to head canon it cause I think they did a piss poor job of drawing those characters.  My head canon: They were clearly grifters and I think Claire looked like a good stringer.  And she would owe them if they killed this guy she was pissed about. Plus they could control her (i.e. blackmail) with Dean's death.  So, I think they were adding to their fold.  Having a younger "sister" in their scams would be useful I suspect. 

[rue721]

But Claire could blackmail them right back *for that murder she saw them commit.* Or if they're grifters, why didn't they just use Claire to get money out of Cas (and Dean, etc), why bring murder into it?

 

The whole thing was absurd. Even if everything else were to stay the same, I honestly don't even know why the writers didn't just have Claire attack Dean directly, why these random people had to do it. The "ax murder attempt by proxy" idea is both overcomplicated and stupid as hell.

 

Rant Warning:  These writers get under my skin with the utter laziness of their scripts. Soul Survivor was the same way imo. I find it disrespectful to everyone else who works on the show and to the audience that these particular writers put in such a minimum of effort. I also find it mind-boggling that they apparently have so little professional pride as to turn in scripts that are as incoherent as this one is. If they don't want to work on this show or don't want to write for television anymore, then they should quit. If they aren't going to quit, then they need to actually do their work. This shit is embarrassing.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I think the problem with Soul Survivor was how quickly demon!Dean was resolved and they should have  left the Cas plot out of that important episode altogether. They could have cured Dean in ep4 but nope.They had to revisit the stupid werewolf that I just DO NOT CARE ABOUT. I will say that I was surprised that the dialogue in Soul Survivor was as good as it was during the de-demoning thing. And whatever else was good about Soul Survivor was the cat and mouse between Dean and Sam but that was really Jensen's direction that made all that work IMO.

 

But here, the entire Claire thing was too distracting and stupid for words. And Cas doesn't even seem like Cas anymore. And I am 100% over Crowley and his mommy issues.  DO NOT CARE

[Pete Martell]

The whole thing was absurd. Even if everything else were to stay the same, I honestly don't even know why the writers didn't just have Claire attack Dean directly, why these random people had to do it. The "ax murder attempt by proxy" idea is both overcomplicated and stupid as hell.

 

I don't think they wanted to have Dean fighting a teenage girl, even if it had just amounted to him disarming her. 

 

I've read a number of theories about about the murder couple (my favorite is probably that they were supposed to be Dean or Dean and Sam in an amoral world), but I just decided they were characters cut from an AHS episode. They were poorly written enough...

[rue721]

But here, the entire Claire thing was too distracting and stupid for words. And Cas doesn't even seem like Cas anymore. And I am 100% over Crowley and his mommy issues.  DO NOT CARE

 

So if Crowley's got these epic mommy issues from 300+ years ago when he got dumped by his parent and left to live as an orphan, than what are we supposed to think about Claire being dumped/left by all of her multitude of fathers and father figures and left to live as an orphan by the end of this episode? Is the supposed to be a parallel between Cas and Rowena? Is Crowley just Clarie plus a few centuries (and becoming a demon blah blah blah)?

 

LOL I kind of wish that were what's going on, though I doubt that's what they're aiming for.

 

I think the problem with Soul Survivor was how quickly demon!Dean was resolved and they should have  left the Cas plot out of that important episode altogether. They could have cured Dean in ep4 but nope.They had to revisit the stupid werewolf that I just DO NOT CARE ABOUT.

 

IA that Soul Survivor was an anticlimactic ending to the demon arc. I think it probably would have been better if they'd paced the seasons so that they didn't end S9 with Dean going black eyes in the first place. Between the S9 finale and the fifth ep of S10, they didn't have time to do a full demon arc and then a reset by the big 200th celebration they wanted to do. They either needed to start the demon arc a little earlier in S9 or needed to wait until after the 200th during S10 to go there, imo.

 

Also, while I think that the black eyes thing was an OK cliffhanger for last season's finale as far as "shock value" goes, I think it actually would have worked better if they'd had him go black eyes at the end of maybe the third episode from the end of S9, then shown him being a demon and leaving Sam for an episode so we'd have gotten more of a sense of what kind of threat we were even dealing with, and then had the season finale cliffhanger be some kind of showdown between Sam and Dean (they could have modeled the structure of the finale on "The End," with the brothers' roles sorta-kinda swapped).

 

But the disconcerting/confusing/too-fast-and-too-easy "undemoning" in Soul Survivor was far from the episode's only problem, so even if they'd paced the mytharc better it's not as though that would have salvaged things. Not to go toooooooo far into that episode in another episode's thread, lol.

 

I don't think they wanted to have Dean fighting a teenage girl, even if it had just amounted to him disarming her. 

 

Off the top of my head -- just by somewhat tweaking the fight scene, they could have had Claire go after Dean with the ax, but lose heart and turn and smash it into the bench instead (just like Dean did in the actual episode). She could have tried to hack the bench to bits out of anger/grief/etc, and then she could have been the one to throw the ax at his feet, give him a dirty look, and leave.

[Pete Martell]

That could have worked, although I think they also wanted to show Dean being able to choose not to kill someone. 

So if Crowley's got these epic mommy issues from 300+ years ago when he got dumped by his parent and left to live as an orphan, than what are we supposed to think about Claire being dumped/left by all of her multitude of fathers and father figures and left to live as an orphan by the end of this episode? Is the supposed to be a parallel between Cas and Rowena? Is Crowley just Clarie plus a few centuries (and becoming a demon blah blah blah)?

 

I think they were trying to say if she could move on from her father baggage (somewhat) and try to move on to a happier life and make the right choices, Dean might be able to as well.

 

Of course her having an actual conversation with Dean could have helped clarify this.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pete Martell