S05.E09: Live And Learn

[copacabana]

There is nothing to suggest that Max is or ever was rotten.  And all of the scenarios pointing to other situations involve ... privacy!  I'd love to see Lisa dropped into an extended episode of Beavis and Butthead or Aqua Teen and made to live there for a spell.  Adult children of Reality TV Gentry get a special pass when it comes to delayed development.  I gather old Max was, what?, perhaps 17 when all of the myth making commenced. 

 

Who knows whether my kid will turn out to be okay or not ... Life is either long or short.  I don't know and neither does he -- But one thing is for sure -- respect is a two way street and parents have a responsibility towards their children, their privacy, and their well being that will supersede whatever is coming in the opposite direction for a significant period of time. Epic Vander Fail. 

[LotusFlower]

I reiterate, HE made the choice to show up on camera again.  Why should it be a secret?  She's not the first mother to have to deal with it.  He's not the first kid to have to learn that lesson.  People fail, you get back up and figure it out.   Failing is not taboo.  Shit happens.  He will live...even if he has to deal with a little humiliation.

Keeping something secret and keeping something private are two different things.

[zoeysmom]

Lisa's parenting has not changed from Season 1. She has always made mention of Max being adopted and his shortcomings as to schooling. Lisa and Ken  seemed to go out of their way to find the perfect place for him to go to school and it just seems it did not work out for him.   I have always gotten the impression Lisa's children went to boarding school.  She speaks in terms of children returning home, with her British humor, as an undesirable thing.  It is contrasted with Kyle telling her children they are always welcome back and conceding that family will probably not be able to enjoy mutual vacations much longer.  Lisa even went so far as to throw a little jab Kyle's way in her blog about her reaction to children leaving for school. I am sure it was all in good fun.

 

Personally, I think if Max's is struggling maybe Lisa and Ken should have move back home where his basic necessities are met until he can learn how to budget for living on his own.  They have missed out the last eight or so years not having him at home and maybe a more concentrated presence would be beneficial to all of them.  When a kid is in boarding school each visit home is like a command performance.  As wonderful as the education is it is sometimes difficult to beat the day to day family life of living at home and attending a neighborhood school. 

 

Something both Lisa V and Yolanda have done is talk about how their daughters (Pandora and Gigi) are exactly like them and how desirable they are because they are perfectionists as well.  I could do without that. . . I would much rather comments like Mauricio's that it is not about whether the child will thrive and survive it is about missing having their presence in the home.  Again a big contrast with these families.

Edited January 16, 2015 by zoeysmom

[jaync]

It's really odd to me that a mother would put her young son's business out there like this, with this kind of back story driving the narrative.

I'd say Max's narrative is pretty pansy compared to those of some of the other Ho'children across the franchise. And, what is being presented on camera is obviously okay with Max, as he's made the decision to have it filmed.

 

I hate to say this but if Max was extremely good looking, did well in school, went on to college and was a real go getter (for lack of a better term),  Lisa would never bring up that he was 'adopted'.

Half of the times that Lisa has mentioned Max being adopted have been in relation to her discussing her charity work with foster care. So, as long as Lisa wants that work/organization to be continually recognized (and correlating events filmed), then I imagine that she would still make mention of Max's adoption, despite what some viewers might think of his face.

[Aunt Kiki]

When Lisa first told us that Max was adopted it was in the beginning of the show years ago, she was talking about their family, not just Max. I got the impression that they were very open with him about being adopted, that it was public knowledge and to hide or omit that on the show would have brought out the sleuth bloggers and ROL printing it and calling them out on it for all to see. They either had to be completely honest or hide it, they chose honesty because they are not embarrassed about how he came to be their son.

I agree and I never got the feeling she was singling Max out, I got the feeling that she was telling her story of the Vanderpump Todd family.  That said, between the Season 1 scene of her visiting him at school and her voice over relating his struggles and then the mention of him being adopted just hit me the wrong way. 

[LotusFlower]

I'd say Max's narrative is pretty pansy compared to those of some of the other Ho'children across the franchise. And, what is being presented on camera is obviously okay with Max, as he's made the decision to have it filmed.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I'm guessing the producers set up a scene where he was told his parents wanted to talk to him about his future, and it's possible that he didn't know how it would go down, and maybe he's hurt or embarrassed by how the scene played out. Lisa and Ken see their son as lazy and directionless, as do (most) viewers, but I can't imagine his thought process was: hey, I'm a loser, let me show that on TV.

[Aunt Kiki]

Lisa's parenting has not changed from Season 1. She has always made mention of Max being adopted and his shortcomings as to schooling. Lisa and Ken  seemed to go out of their way to find the perfect place for him to go to school and it just seems it did not work out for him.   I have always gotten the impression Lisa's children went to boarding school.  She speaks in terms of children returning home, with her British humor, as an undesirable thing.  It is contrasted with Kyle telling her children they are always welcome back and conceding that family will probably not be able to enjoy mutual vacations much longer.  Lisa even went so far as to throw a little jab Kyle's way in her blog about her reaction to children leaving for school. I am sure it was all in good fun.

 

Personally, I think if Max's is struggling maybe Lisa and Ken should have move back home where his basic necessities are met until he can learn how to budget for living on his own.  They have missed out the last eight or so years not having him at home and maybe a more concentrated presence would be beneficial to all of them.  When a kid is in boarding school each visit home is like a command performance.  As wonderful as the education is it is sometimes difficult to beat the day to day family life of living at home and attending a neighborhood school. 

 

Something both Lisa V and Yolanda have done is talk about how their daughters (Pandora and Gigi) are exactly like them and how desirable they are because they are perfectionists as well.  I could do without that. . . I would much rather comments like Mauricio's that it is not about whether the child will thrive and survive it is about missing having their presence in the home.  Again a big contrast with these families.

 You nailed it on the contrast - Somehow I don't think Ken or Lisa would be prepared to have Max back at home.  I think that ship sailed a long time ago.   Ken is crotchety and Lisa bemoans never having a free minute because of all the businesses (not to mention the legal problems they've had).  They've downsized to their own perfect empty nester paradise and have outfitted it with swans and dogs amongst the immaculate surroundings.  But I agree that Max needs basic structure but I just don't think that the Vanderpump Todds are up to the challenge.  Not unlike many wealthy parents of unfocused young adults.

[WireWrap]

I agree and I never got the feeling she was singling Max out, I got the feeling that she was telling her story of the Vanderpump Todd family.  That said, between the Season 1 scene of her visiting him at school and her voice over relating his struggles and then the mention of him being adopted just hit me the wrong way. 

I don't think Lisa's intent on telling about his adoption was to take blame for his bad decisions away from her and Ken. I do think it was said because they feared/knew it would be made public no matter what. I just don't know how she should have handled it, no matter what she said/didn't say, there will always people/viewers looking to use it against her. That applies with all of the HWs, not just Lisa V though. It is a fine line that they walk, what do they reveal about their private lives and that of their families. When it comes to the younger minor kids, the less they say and the less they involve/show them on the show, the better IMO.

[Drogo]

When I take my kids to college I will definitely be mentioning that they can come home if it's not for them.

College students have jumped off bridges for fear of their parents' disappointment.

You don't like it? Come home.

[WireWrap]

Keeping something secret and keeping something private are two different things.

Max started out the conversation about his own short comings, not Lisa/Ken , so it appears he was comfortable sharing this info.

 

 

Lisa's parenting has not changed from Season 1. She has always made mention of Max being adopted and his shortcomings as to schooling. Lisa and Ken  seemed to go out of their way to find the perfect place for him to go to school and it just seems it did not work out for him.   I have always gotten the impression Lisa's children went to boarding school.  She speaks in terms of children returning home, with her British humor, as an undesirable thing.  It is contrasted with Kyle telling her children they are always welcome back and conceding that family will probably not be able to enjoy mutual vacations much longer.  Lisa even went so far as to throw a little jab Kyle's way in her blog about her reaction to children leaving for school. I am sure it was all in good fun.

 

Personally, I think if Max's is struggling maybe Lisa and Ken should have move back home where his basic necessities are met until he can learn how to budget for living on his own.  They have missed out the last eight or so years not having him at home and maybe a more concentrated presence would be beneficial to all of them.  When a kid is in boarding school each visit home is like a command performance.  As wonderful as the education is it is sometimes difficult to beat the day to day family life of living at home and attending a neighborhood school. 

 

Something both Lisa V and Yolanda have done is talk about how their daughters (Pandora and Gigi) are exactly like them and how desirable they are because they are perfectionists as well.  I could do without that. . . I would much rather comments like Mauricio's that it is not about whether the child will thrive and survive it is about missing having their presence in the home.  Again a big contrast with these families.

We have no idea if they suggested to Max that he move back home with them. It is just as possible that they did and he rejected that idea as it is that they did not want him back in the family home. I think it is a giant leap to suggest that they would not open the doors to their home if that would be best for him. I have never gotten the impression that Lisa/Ken have turned their backs on Max, ever. JMO

[LotusFlower]

Ok, I know I should reserve judgment until I see the episode, but from the clip on Bravotv, when you're with a small group on a trip, and one is an alcoholic, and an event planner or whomever says "let's now move on to a wine tasting," shouldn't you step in and say "let's not." ?

[LotusFlower]

Max started out the conversation about his own short comings, not Lisa/Ken , so it appears he was comfortable sharing this info.

 

I was referring to his life, his story, not his admission that he had no car insurance, or anything else he said in that scene. He certainly didn't disclose that he's not as ambitious or hard-working as Pandora, or that he's dating an older woman and his parents don't approve, etc... It's his mother's show - she put her spin on it, and he has no control over that.

[jaync]

They have missed out the last eight or so years not having him at home and maybe a more concentrated presence would be beneficial to all of them. 

How do you figure Max hasn't lived at home since he was a very young teen? Boarding school (and years spent there) is an assumption, and for all any of us know, Max may have been living with his parents during some/all of the previous seasons. (His absence from filming doesn't mean he was living elsewhere.)

 

I'm guessing the producers set up a scene where he was told his parents wanted to talk to him about his future, and it's possible that he didn't know how it would go down, and maybe he's hurt or embarrassed by how the scene played out.

I'm guessing they've had similar talks on other occasions, and filming it wasn't a big deal for him. He hardly appeared to be embarrassed, and I highly doubt he's somehow damaged from the experience.

Edited January 17, 2015 by jaync

[zoeysmom]

Max started out the conversation about his own short comings, not Lisa/Ken , so it appears he was comfortable sharing this info.

 

 

We have no idea if they suggested to Max that he move back home with them. It is just as possible that they did and he rejected that idea as it is that they did not want him back in the family home. I think it is a giant leap to suggest that they would not open the doors to their home if that would be best for him. I have never gotten the impression that Lisa/Ken have turned their backs on Max, ever. JMO

Nor did I say anything to the effect that Lisa and Ken have turned their backs on Max.  If Lisa is paying rent for Max then she does have the power to offer the family home over rent payments.  A very strong motivational tool-no more rent payments.  Max probably makes $300.00 a week as a busboy at SUR. 

 

The point I am trying to make is boarding schools are more of a continental commonplace.  Lisa and Ken's behavior seems very reminiscent of friends we have  who were raised attending boarding schools.  It is just a rite of passage that once they attend boarding school they rarely move back in with the folks-it is on to college and independent adult living.  Lisa and Ken's way is just different than what most Americans are use to neither better or worse.  I also think Max communicates with his folks with the same level of humor they have displayed. 

 

Another different lifestyle is that of Yolanda and Anwar-Yolanda is once again off her death bed and accompanying David during his gig on "Asia Has Talent" in Singapore.  So Anwar is either in boarding school or staying with Blanca at the Foster spread, staying with a friend or staying with his dad in Bel-Air and being driven quite a ways every day to and from school.  Again a different lifestyle.

[WireWrap]

I was referring to his life, his story, not his admission that he had no car insurance, or anything else he said in that scene. He certainly didn't disclose that he's not as ambitious or hard-working as Pandora, or that he's dating an older woman and his parents don't approve, etc... It's his mother's show - she put her spin on it, and he has no control over that.

Actually he did, he said that he was "lazy", his words, not Lisa/Ken and he was the one to share that he did not pay his electric bill for 3 months first. That he claimed to not have car insurance on camera right off the bat, even though he really did have it as he said at the end of the conversation, makes me think he loves to bait Lisa/Ken to get a reaction from them. I have known young adults that do that, they go out of their way to tick their parents off, like it is a sport to them. It is possible that Max is 1 of those young adults! I get the distinct impression that Max is a handful and always has been.  Who knows what is going on between them, Max/Lisa/Ken, but at least no one is blowing smoke up our collective butts pretending all is perfect.

 

I imagine that it is hard when you have 2 kids that are polar opposites, Lisa/Ken had to have asked what they did wrong with/to Max that he is so different from Pandora and so different from them/their lifestyle/ambitions/work ethics. How long should parents bail their kids out of the messes they get themselves into, when is it time to step away and let them sink or swim on their own? Not a decision that is easy for parents to arrive at but 1 that is necessary at times and I think Lisa/Ken are at the place and time with Max. Sharing this with us themselves is preventing the tabloids/bloggers inventing stories that could be far worse/damaging to all involved.

[LotusFlower]

I'm guessing they've had similar talks on other occasions, and filming it wasn't a big deal for him. He hardly appeared to be embarrassed, and I highly doubt he's somehow damaged from the experience.

But we're both guessing. Filming the scene, and then watching it on a produced and edited show, with your mother's critical commentary spliced in, are two different things. And this is on top of his one other appearance this season, where Lisa criticized his choice of girlfriend in her TH's (while simultaneously saying that parents of gay children should accept their children's life choices). If he watches this season and comes back for more, then I would agree that he's ok with it, or at least he decided to make a deal with the devil. But not yet.

[WireWrap]

Nor did I say anything to the effect that Lisa and Ken have turned their backs on Max.  If Lisa is paying rent for Max then she does have the power to offer the family home over rent payments.  A very strong motivational tool-no more rent payments.  Max probably makes $300.00 a week as a busboy at SUR. 

 

The point I am trying to make is boarding schools are more of a continental commonplace.  Lisa and Ken's behavior seems very reminiscent of friends we have  who were raised attending boarding schools.  It is just a rite of passage that once they attend boarding school they rarely move back in with the folks-it is on to college and independent adult living.  Lisa and Ken's way is just different than what most Americans are use to neither better or worse.  I also think Max communicates with his folks with the same level of humor they have displayed. 

 

Another different lifestyle is that of Yolanda and Anwar-Yolanda is once again off her death bed and accompanying David during his gig on "Asia Has Talent" in Singapore.  So Anwar is either in boarding school or staying with Blanca at the Foster spread, staying with a friend or staying with his dad in Bel-Air and being driven quite a ways every day to and from school.  Again a different lifestyle.

We have no idea if Max lived with his parents when he returned from Idaho/rehab, it is possible that he did. He did not want to be filmed so they, Bravo, would not have filmed him even if he lived at home with Lisa/Ken. We also do not know if Lisa/Ken asked Max to move back home with them, it is a giant leap to assume they did not.

 

Yes, boarding school is very common in England, especially among the wealthy/well too do. I am sure both Pandora and Max went to boarding school. I do not think Yolanda's children did boarding school though. In 1 episode early last season or the 1 before, all 3 kids were seen coming home from school during the week, the volleyball/lesbian comment, and all 3 talked briefly about their school day. I think they go to private school but come home daily. I think Anwar decided to not be filmed for the show and that is why we no longer see him, much like Max decided.

But we're both guessing. Filming the scene, and then watching it on a produced and edited show, with your mother's critical commentary spliced in, are two different things. And this is on top of his one other appearance this season, where Lisa criticized his choice of girlfriend in her TH's (while simultaneously saying that parents of gay children should accept their children's life choices). If he watches this season and comes back for more, then I would agree that he's ok with it, or at least he decided to make a deal with the devil. But not yet.

So then I guess we need to table this discussion until next season then. LOL I wish they would allow the older kids TH segments when they are featured in an episode but that too would be subject to editing and not all that trustworthy! LOL That is why I have so much distrust with anything we hear said in a TH segment, the producers questions are edited out, the HWs answer is edited for dramatic purposes and we can never be sure that what was said belongs with the scene we just saw before the TH. LOL

[jaync]

But we're both guessing.

Of course; it's not a matter of stating facts. As far as Lisa's comment on parents of gay children, there's a difference in not accepting one's child because of who they inherently are, and being leery of the person they're dating.

[LotusFlower]

I imagine that it is hard when you have 2 kids that are polar opposites, Lisa/Ken had to have asked what they did wrong with/to Max that he is so different from Pandora and so different from them/their lifestyle/ambitions/work ethics.

Why is it hard to have kids who are polar opposites? Secondly, Lisa asked herself the very question you posed - why are my two children so different, and threw out a theory - because one is adopted. It's a totally acceptable thing to question and talk about with your husband and close friends, but to discuss it publicly the way she did was dreadful. Lastly, are Pandora and Max so different? Is Pandora so ambitious and successful? I don't watch VR or know much about her other than what's been on the show, but it seems she works at her parent's restaurant. I'm not putting that down, but how does that show any great ambition or success?

[RedheadZombie]

When Lisa first told us that Max was adopted it was in the beginning of the show years ago, she was talking about their family, not just Max. I got the impression that they were very open with him about being adopted, that it was public knowledge and to hide or omit that on the show would have brought out the sleuth bloggers and ROL printing it and calling them out on it for all to see. They either had to be completely honest or hide it, they chose honesty because they are not embarrassed about how he came to be their son.

 

I don't know if you have to be adopted to understand why what Lisa said is insulting.  I am adopted, as well as others in my extended family.  Never - whether an only child (me) or one of several children - never have our parents differentiated us out as adopted.  It's actually quite shocking how fundamental this difference seems to be to Lisa.  I have several cousins who had no idea that their father wasn't their bio father, but actually a step-father who adopted them.  That is because they were treated as no different than their siblings. 

 

Why do Max's difficulties make it acceptable to clarify he's adopted?  What if Lisa was pointing out Max was adopted because she thought he was ugly, and Ken/Lisa/Pandora were beautiful.  "Is Max ugly because he's adopted and has different genes?  I don't know."  Is that ok?  What exactly is Lisa inferring when she mentions this anyway?  Is she implying that Max's biological parents had low IQs and passed on their stupid genes?  It's just so frustrating to me and probably Max, because if you're damning him for his genetic makeup, what the fuck is he supposed to do to change it?  It really strikes me as British snobbery and classism. 

 

 Lisa even went so far as to throw a little jab Kyle's way in her blog about her reaction to children leaving for school. I am sure it was all in good fun.

 

Lisa can make jabs at Kyle all she wants.  Until Kyle uproots her entire family (including younger children) because she can't bear to be away from her favorite, and then sends one of her other children away to be raised by a "godmother", she is winning this competition.

 

 I've seen extreme partiality in my own family, and it's often caused by something as trivial as preferring a boy over a girl, or the most attractive child over the homely one.  I've even seen families in which the fathers clearly prefer the boy and mothers prefer the girl.  Poor Max - even his father prefers Pandora.  That's got to sting.

 

As tacky as it is to quote myself, I feel the need to clarify that I'm talking about my extended family, not my parents.

[LotusFlower]

Of course; it's not a matter of stating facts. As far as Lisa's comment on parents of gay children, there's a difference in not accepting one's child because of who they inherently are, and being leery of the person they're dating.

To the first - yes, of course. But I thought you were stating that because Max agreed to film the scene with his parents and didn't seem embarrassed, then he was ok with it. You might be right, but we really don't know. As for your second point, I also agree in part, but the juxtaposition of the two scenerios on display was startling to me. I think open-mindedness should extend out and far.

[zoeysmom]

How do you figure Max hasn't lived at home since he was a very young teen? Boarding school (and years spent there) is an assumption, and for all any of us know, Max may have been living with his parents during some/all of the previous seasons. (His absence from filming doesn't mean he was living elsewhere.)

 

I'm guessing they've had similar talks on other occasions, and filming it wasn't a big deal for him. He hardly appeared to be embarrassed, and I highly doubt he's somehow damaged from the experience.

From watching the show.  Max was 16 in 2007, that is when he was sent to Idaho to get away from the bad influences in Beverly Hills-according to Lisa, when the show filmed in 2009.  We saw Max go to the music institute. We saw Max show up for his sister's wedding at the end of the second season with a hairdo that surprised Lisa and shave it off. (2011).  I am not basing my statements on the number of times Max has appeared on screen I am basing it on Lisa and Ken's statements.  Little dead giveaways such as-now that it is just the two of us we are downsizing. So that is how I arrived at my number.  Again I am not saying boarding school is any way a bad idea it is just different that what most Americans chose for their children's education.

 

I think since Max is an adult if he is going to appear on these shows he should draw wages just as other adult children from various franchises have.  Fair is fair.

[WireWrap]

I don't know if you have to be adopted to understand why what Lisa said is insulting.  I am adopted, as well as others in my extended family.  Never - whether an only child (me) or one of several children - never have our parents differentiated us out as adopted.  It's actually quite shocking how fundamental this difference seems to be to Lisa.  I have several cousins who had no idea that their father wasn't their bio father, but actually a step-father who adopted them.  That is because they were treated as no different than their siblings. 

 

Why do Max's difficulties make it acceptable to clarify he's adopted?  What if Lisa was pointing out Max was adopted because she thought he was ugly, and Ken/Lisa/Pandora were beautiful.  "Is Max ugly because he's adopted and has different genes?  I don't know."  Is that ok?  What exactly is Lisa inferring when she mentions this anyway?  Is she implying that Max's biological parents had low IQs and passed on their stupid genes?  It's just so frustrating to me and probably Max, because if you're damning him for his genetic makeup, what the fuck is he supposed to do to change it?  It really strikes me as British snobbery and classism. 

 

 

Lisa can make jabs at Kyle all she wants.  Until Kyle uproots her entire family (including younger children) because she can't bear to be away from her favorite, and then sends one of her other children away to be raised by a "godmother", she is winning this competition.

 

 

As tacky as it is to quote myself, I feel the need to clarify that I'm talking about my extended family, not my parents.

First, it is very clear, IMO, that Lisa was answering a producers question if she thought Max being adopted had a role in his current issues, she did not bring up his adoption to him or in front of him! Please re-watch that TH segment. I am not adopted but have friends that are and some knew from day 1 and others not until adulthood.

 

I have never heard Lisa or Ken blame his problems on the fact that he is adopted, in fact she said that a "mother is only as happy as her saddest child". She did not say that his current problems were because he is adopted, or that she loved him less than Pandora because he is adopted! PLEASE re-watch the episode!  She was answering a producers question in her TH segment, not volunteering that he is less their child because he is adopted!

 

She sent Max away to get him away from his friends and the drug scene he was part of. He finished HS there and went to rehab! How was that wrong? Pray tell me what she/Ken did that was so bad in sending him out of state to help protect him? SMH!!!!!!!!!!

[jaync]

Never - whether an only child (me) or one of several children - never have our parents differentiated us out as adopted.

But that's your experience, and others having a different one doesn't mean their personal family dynamic is somehow wrong. I know of a family who acknowledges and celebrates the date of their child's adoption (Gotcha Day?), and the child probably couldn't have a more healthy, happy life.

 

But I thought you were stating that because Max agreed to film the scene with his parents and didn't seem embarrassed, then he was ok with it.

Yes, that's my perception, but I never stated it as a known truth, as it isn't.

[WireWrap]

From watching the show.  Max was 16 in 2007, that is when he was sent to Idaho to get away from the bad influences in Beverly Hills-according to Lisa, when the show filmed in 2009.  We saw Max go to the music institute. We saw Max show up for his sister's wedding at the end of the second season with a hairdo that surprised Lisa and shave it off. (2011).  I am not basing my statements on the number of times Max has appeared on screen I am basing it on Lisa and Ken's statements.  Little dead giveaways such as-now that it is just the two of us we are downsizing. So that is how I arrived at my number.  Again I am not saying boarding school is any way a bad idea it is just different that what most Americans chose for their children's education.

 

I think since Max is an adult if he is going to appear on these shows he should draw wages just as other adult children from various franchises have.  Fair is fair.

He could have just had his hair cut, LOL, that in no way proves that Max did not live at home back then. They downsized when Max was about 20 years old, that is when they moved into the house they are in, not when he was 15, 16, 17, 18 but when he was a young adult. That also does not mean that they did not offer to have him move in with them at that time. Do you or anyone else have proof that he did not live with them after returning from Idaho or dropping out of Music/school/college or is this all just a guessing game?

 

It was reported that Max lived with his Godmother while attending HS and rehab, not boarding school but had he gone to boarding school, so what! Why is that so wrong, just because most average Americans do not do that, because most can not afford it, does not make it wrong.

 

Also, who is to say that he is not getting paid for appearing this season? Do you know something we don't, was it reported he was not? Maybe he is on because he needs the money to finally start paying his bills instead of having his parents do it for him. LOL

[bosawks]

I think if Max ends up as part of the Vanderpump Rules cast it does mean Lisa and Ken hate him.....

[WireWrap]

I think if Max ends up as part of the Vanderpump Rules cast it does mean Lisa and Ken hate him.....

Oh NO you didn't LOL!!!! I would not wish that show on anyone!

[EVS]

I knew someone whose teen had serious drug and behavioral issues and she sent him to a nature/wilderness rehab boarding program in Idaho, so if his issues were severe enough, maybe Lisa and Ken sent Max to a similar program. That is speculation on my part but it's the first thing I thought of when Lisa said Idaho. My friend's son was there for 2 years and it was the hardest thing she ever did but it changed his life. I don't think they were even allowed to visit him for the first 6 months.

[Aunt Kiki]

Nor did I say anything to the effect that Lisa and Ken have turned their backs on Max.  If Lisa is paying rent for Max then she does have the power to offer the family home over rent payments.  A very strong motivational tool-no more rent payments.  Max probably makes $300.00 a week as a busboy at SUR. 

 

The point I am trying to make is boarding schools are more of a continental commonplace.  Lisa and Ken's behavior seems very reminiscent of friends we have  who were raised attending boarding schools.  It is just a rite of passage that once they attend boarding school they rarely move back in with the folks-it is on to college and independent adult living.  Lisa and Ken's way is just different than what most Americans are use to neither better or worse.  I also think Max communicates with his folks with the same level of humor they have displayed. 

 

Another different lifestyle is that of Yolanda and Anwar-Yolanda is once again off her death bed and accompanying David during his gig on "Asia Has Talent" in Singapore.  So Anwar is either in boarding school or staying with Blanca at the Foster spread, staying with a friend or staying with his dad in Bel-Air and being driven quite a ways every day to and from school.  Again a different lifestyle.

Exactly.  My brother was sent to boarding school and he never really came home again, except for school vacations (and actually not many of them as time went on), then off to college and independent living.  I don't recall if Lisa and Ken were also products of boarding school.

 

One thing that stood out was Max not acknowledging his parents' anniversary - whether it was deliberate or whether he really didn't know - was sad.   Maybe, as others have pointed out, it's his way of baiting his parents for a reaction.  He sure got one from Ken, who just left the room after a while.  I would guess that Ken has a very low threshold for Max's foolishness at this point.

[copacabana]

Whatever it is, it's all definitely Masterpiece Theater!  Whoever produced and edited this last chapter needs a raise, pronto ... Total time release poison pill of let's fuck up our audience with adopted Brit kid in LA issues.  I am SO missing Brandi pants and her relatively innocent drunken shenanigans. And Kim smoking a cigarillo and getting her nutty back on. A couple of good shoves up and down a staircase and all will be well again. Please, no children!

 

And yes to the person some pages back who was like how are we not talking about Lisa telling Rocio that the shoes and crap she didn't like would soon be Rocio's closet?  Too funny.  That was Lisa being NICE to Rocio!  At least this time Rocio wasn't told that she was too privileged to get any part of anything except a couple of hours solo with Giggy. 

 

I'd love to know what part of Idaho Ken and Lisa have any real knowledge of.  I'm guessing Sun Valley. Maybe.

 

I'm weaning myself off of Atlanta, slowly but surely.  BH is going to be next.  I gave up VR some weeks ago.  I'm bound and determined to get off the junk.  Or POO.

[copacabana]

 

 

One thing that stood out was Max not acknowledging his parents' anniversary - whether it was deliberate or whether he really didn't know - was sad.   Maybe, as others have pointed out, it's his way of baiting his parents for a reaction.  He sure got one from Ken, who just left the room after a while.  I would guess that Ken has a very low threshold for Max's foolishness at this point.

 

Am having to chuckle.  I wish my husband of 20 years remembered our anniversary!  Good thing I don't much care either.  If my son recalled it, I'd be worried for his sanity.  Ken between the dog, the roses, the admirable worshiping of Lisa, and all the rest of us has pretty much neutered himself. 

[RedheadZombie]

She sent Max away to get him away from his friends and the drug scene he was part of. He finished HS there and went to rehab! How was that wrong? Pray tell me what she/Ken did that was so bad in sending him out of state to help protect him? SMH!!!!!!!!!!

 

Lisa and Ken felt it was important to move to another continent, simply to be near their (presumably) happy, healthy, non-struggling daughter.  But they couldn't temporarily re-locate to another state or city for their (presumably) troubled, drug dabbling son.  That's what I don't get.  Unless Lisa and Ken simply believed they were toxic parents, I'm not sure why they felt that Max needed to be removed from his closest relatives.  I know upper-class Brits are very quick to send their children away to be boarded, but teenagers who are already struggling need more parental love and involvement, not less.  What they did that was so bad, IMO, was pass the buck when it came to Max.  Does anyone here really think that Pandy would have been sent away for any reason?  Lisa herself acknowledged that they couldn't stand to be away from her.   If Max was doing fine in France, but struggled in California where they only moved to because of Pandora, the obvious solution was to move back to where Max thrived.  Instead, they stayed with Pandy and sent Max away.   I'm not sure how Max could have interpreted that any differently.

[Aunt Kiki]

Am having to chuckle.  I wish my husband of 20 years remembered our anniversary!  Good thing I don't much care either.  If my son recalled it, I'd be worried for his sanity.  Ken between the dog, the roses, the admirable worshiping of Lisa, and all the rest of us has pretty much neutered himself. 

In my mind only - I always envisioned that particular household celebrating occasions like that with the same importance as a birthday - not saying that it actually is the case there....

 

Too true about Ken.  He may be neutered but he sure is cranky.  I think he was done with the bullshit after last season and he's just not playin' anymore - not even for Lisa. 

[RedheadZombie]

But that's your experience, and others having a different one doesn't mean their personal family dynamic is somehow wrong. I know of a family who acknowledges and celebrates the date of their child's adoption (Gotcha Day?), and the child probably couldn't have a more healthy, happy life.

 

Yes, that's my perception, but I never stated it as a known truth, as it isn't.

 

Unless the Gotcha Day involves comparing how different the adopted child is from the rest of the family, and debating if it's due to genetics, that's not an apt comparison.

 

Acknowledging and celebrating an adoption is not at all what I was talking about, and I think I was pretty clear.  I was talking about using the fact that a child was adopted to discuss why that child is different from the rest of his family.  Especially, when it's the adopted child who is thought of as less than.  It's not like Max is a violin prodigy and Lisa and Ken are marveling that they're both tone deaf, and Max must have a genetic gift for music. 

[BluishGreen]

Funny-- the Vanderpump/Todds have two children.  One, the daughter, is purportedly the stable, capable one.    Yet, when it was time for her to attend college, the parents sold their home in France, sold their businesses, left their friends (if any) and family (Ken's older son and  Ken's grandchildren) and uprooted their younger child so they could "accompany" Pandora to college.  Guess that's why we don't get to see Lisa crying over a child going away to college-- Lisa didn't even ALLOW her daughter to get that far away!   No, she had to move along with Pandy dahling because..... just because. Yo, Kyle and Kim get lots of flak for crying when their children leave home.  At least these mothers LET their children leave. At least they didn't find it necessary to move in next door to their kid's sorority house, like Madam Lisa. 

 

I have been on both sides of the "kid going away to college" equation,  and yes, indeed, lots of tears were shed, but it never occurred to me, and I would bet my life it never occurred to my parents, that a parent should give up their home, their work, basically, their entire life, to "accompany" a child to college-- Aside from failing your child by putting your own feelings first and not letting him or her gain some independence,   you run the risk that your kid may hate the college, may fail out, whatever, and here you have rearranged your entire life around your kid's college choice....  Bizarre.

 

Then again,  Lisa and Ken have another child, who apparently HAS some real problems-- maybe he is aware, as kids always are, that he is the disfavored one, the not-as-good one, the one isn't like "us" ( i.e., his parents and sibling.)  Maybe he could use a little more help, a little more understanding, a little more love, a little more attention. Not happening.  Nope, Lisa and Ken don't accompany him to rehab, or to his godmother's home,  or to boarding school.  I'm betting Max got shipped out as soon as he started being a problem--  I remember Ken saying at the time of Pandy dahling's wedding that they only see Max "once a year."  I realize Ken was probably exaggerating, but, clearly, they seemed content to have him living away from the family and being out of their daily lives, from a very young age.

 

So, are we to conclude that Max's difficulties are now going to be Lisa's "story line?"    A new low for the VP/Ts.

RedheadZombie-- I should

have read your post first-- we had the same idea, but you said it better!

Edited January 17, 2015 by BluishGreen

[zoeysmom]

He could have just had his hair cut, LOL, that in no way proves that Max did not live at home back then. They downsized when Max was about 20 years old, that is when they moved into the house they are in, not when he was 15, 16, 17, 18 but when he was a young adult. That also does not mean that they did not offer to have him move in with them at that time. Do you or anyone else have proof that he did not live with them after returning from Idaho or dropping out of Music/school/college or is this all just a guessing game?

 

It was reported that Max lived with his Godmother while attending HS and rehab, not boarding school but had he gone to boarding school, so what! Why is that so wrong, just because most average Americans do not do that, because most can not afford it, does not make it wrong.

 

Also, who is to say that he is not getting paid for appearing this season? Do you know something we don't, was it reported he was not? Maybe he is on because he needs the money to finally start paying his bills instead of having his parents do it for him. LOL

You know my speculation is just as valid as anyone else's.  I think it is pretty clear that the kid lived in Idaho from the age 16, since Lisa said it. He then decided to attend the Music School at 18, since we saw it on the show and Lisa commenting about the bad influences in the neighborhood.  I am certain that if Max came home between Idaho and Music school there was bed for him in the house.  When Max arrived at his sister's wedding he had a huge Mohawk on top of his head which Lisa ordered shaved off and prior to that there was talk of him even showing up for the wedding. So it is safe to presume that he probably lived elsewhere since the wedding was at the house.  During the first season of Vanderpump Rules-two years ago there was yet another scene with Lisa and the conversation was such that she had not seen Max in awhile, leading one to believe her lived elsewhere.  Couple that with this week's conversation where he had been without power for three months and Lisa writing she paid his rent but no the electrical I am thinking my speculation has a pretty solid foundation that Max has not lived in the family home for several years .

 

I can't speak to any offers to Max to move home nor can anyone else at this juncture. My previous suggestion was that Max move home so he could save money, learn how to budget and they could get to enjoy each other as a family.  And for the third time I have never said there is anything wrong with boarding school I have only said it is less common in the United States.

 

I will say this about Lisa she is firm in her convictions.  She offers no apologies for her comments about adoption so my best guess is Lisa finds nothing wrong with her comments and is very comfortable in how she portrays her views on adoption.

[FozzyBear]

As much as I love LisaV, I can't say I've loved everything that's come out of her mouth about Max. But to play devil's advocate. A good friend of mine has an adopted son(whom she and her husband adore) who has struggled in life. Some addiction issues, problems in school, random immaturity (to an extreme degree) stuff. The adoption has never been a secrect(there was even a special blessing at his baptism). His parents are type A achievers and while his issues haven't been earth shattering they have been serious. He has also struggled with wondering why he can't just "do it" like his family. At a certain point, and with the guidance of a family councilor, they had to start putting it on the table in regards to his genetics. He was feeling like such a looser and it became important for him to know he was dealing with a different set of genes and his parents might have struggled too with his genetics predispositions. It actually helped him to talk about how some life stuff might just be harder for him and thier family counclor really encouraged them to all hash it out. He's doing much better now, but says those sessions really helped him realize he's not a looser, just a different person with different struggles. I think that may be what Lisa is trying to talk about.

[BluishGreen]

When I take my kids to college I will definitely be mentioning that they can come home if it's not for them.

College students have jumped off bridges for fear of their parents' disappointment.

You don't like it? Come home.

I know a family who lost a child in college in a similar way,  for this very reason-- I  agree completely with your post. 

[zoeysmom]

Lisa and Ken felt it was important to move to another continent, simply to be near their (presumably) happy, healthy, non-struggling daughter.  But they couldn't temporarily re-locate to another state or city for their (presumably) troubled, drug dabbling son.  That's what I don't get.  Unless Lisa and Ken simply believed they were toxic parents, I'm not sure why they felt that Max needed to be removed from his closest relatives.  I know upper-class Brits are very quick to send their children away to be boarded, but teenagers who are already struggling need more parental love and involvement, not less.  What they did that was so bad, IMO, was pass the buck when it came to Max.  Does anyone here really think that Pandy would have been sent away for any reason?  Lisa herself acknowledged that they couldn't stand to be away from her.   If Max was doing fine in France, but struggled in California where they only moved to because of Pandora, the obvious solution was to move back to where Max thrived.  Instead, they stayed with Pandy and sent Max away.   I'm not sure how Max could have interpreted that any differently.

I have posted this before and this article is interesting from 2002-the quote relevant to this discussion: http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/music/baywatch-babe-turns-club-queen-6308575.html

 

"She and Ken moved back to England partly because they didn't want Pandora, now 16, and Max now 10, to grow up around the "Hollywood b-s" of Los Angeles.

 

Just for the record Lisa was in one episode of "Baywatch Nights", had she been on a year later she would have been on with Eddie Cibrian.   Also Lisa claims to be living in England not France, in this article, she in fact gives two locations where they have homes, so I find so much of what she has to say fuzzy at best.

 

Of course they moved back two years later and moved to Beverly Park not Malibu where Pandora was attending school.  I have always questioned just how rough was it in the Beverly Park school district for Max to get caught up in the wrong crowd?  Was he hanging out with Charlie Sheen or something?

 

There is a certain inconsistency in the comments of Lisa and Ken about parenting but I think that makes them pretty normal.

Edited January 17, 2015 by zoeysmom

[LotusFlower]

Funny-- the Vanderpump/Todds have two children.  One, the daughter, is purportedly the stable, capable one.    Yet, when it was time for her to attend college, the parents sold their home in France, sold their businesses, left their friends (if any) and family (Ken's older son and  Ken's children) and uprooted their younger child so they could "accompany" Pandora to college.  Guess that's why we don't get to see Lisa crying over a child going away to college-- Lisa didn't even ALLOW her daughter to get that far away!   No, she had to move along with Pandy dahling because..... just because. Yo, Kyle and Kim get lots of flak for crying when their children leave home.  At least these mothers LET their children leave. At least they didn't find it necessary to move in next door to their kid's sorority house, like Madam Lisa. 

 

I have been on both sides of the "kid going away to college" equation,  and yes, indeed, lots of tears were shed, but it never occurred to me, and I would bet my life it never occurred to my parents, that a parent should give up their home, their work, basically, their entire life, to "accompany" a child to college-- Aside from failing your child by putting your own feelings first and not letting him or her gain some independence,   you run the risk that your kid may hate the college, may fail out, whatever, and here you have rearranged your entire life around your kid's college choice....  Bizarre.

 !

I said this before, but I'll repeat it here since it fits the current conversation. I don't believe Lisa's version of moving to LA simply to be near Pandora. It didn't ring true to me the minute she said it since it seemed so out of character for her. And to uproot your entire life - your home(s), businesses, family, friends, not to mention a younger child still in school - just to be near your daughter? It makes no sense. Lisa was an actress from an early age. She has a number of credits from projects from the 80's on - most in the UK, but a few in good ole Hollywood in the 90's, well before Pandora went to Pepperdine. So I think they moved to LA for Lisa to pursue acting, like so many people do, only it didn't work out. But instead of admitting this, they put a different spin on it. That makes more sense to me. Either that or the Tax Man was after them. Or maybe a combination of all three. But it definitely wasn't, imho, simply to follow their daughter to school.

[Aunt Kiki]

As much as I love LisaV, I can't say I've loved everything that's come out of her mouth about Max. But to play devil's advocate. A good friend of mine has an adopted son(whom she and her husband adore) who has struggled in life. Some addiction issues, problems in school, random immaturity (to an extreme degree) stuff. The adoption has never been a secrect(there was even a special blessing at his baptism). His parents are type A achievers and while his issues haven't been earth shattering they have been serious. He has also struggled with wondering why he can't just "do it" like his family. At a certain point, and with the guidance of a family councilor, they had to start putting it on the table in regards to his genetics. He was feeling like such a looser and it became important for him to know he was dealing with a different set of genes and his parents might have struggled too with his genetics predispositions. It actually helped him to talk about how some life stuff might just be harder for him and thier family counclor really encouraged them to all hash it out. He's doing much better now, but says those sessions really helped him realize he's not a looser, just a different person with different struggles. I think that may be what Lisa is trying to talk about.

I agree with you, and I posted my friend's experience with their son.  Like many parents in the same situation, perhaps Lisa and Ken were not prepared to deal with Max's problems when they first occurred and maybe they still don't know how to deal with his behavior now, but I do think Lisa in particular is trying.  I'm not sure about Ken, though.  I do believe that they were not prepared to have a problematic child - their life is too organized, regimented - too orchestrated because of their businesses - any problems are like flies in the ointment.  I would imagine that they have spared no expense trying to help Max.

 

I don't think anyone knows if the problems Max had began earlier than the move to California so it's difficult to pinpoint when the problems began.  And I wouldn't imagine that Lisa would add any more information on the subject at this point

[FozzyBear]

I know a family who lost a child in college in a similar way, for this very reason-- I agree completely with your post.

I agree. It's important for kids to know the first college they go to not working out or college in general not working out isn't the end of the world. College is about so much more than just classes. I picked a horrible school for myself socially and if I had been more mature I would have admitted it, come home to do 2 years at a community college and transferred into a different school. Eh bygones, I'm about to get my Master's in Library Science so it all worked out, but it was a rougher road than it needed it be. I have no problem with Kyle making sure her girls feel like they can call her and talk it through if they start to have misgivings. And as much as Kyle annoys me on a personal level, I do think she's a good mom. I just wish she could check the drama at the hotel room door and be more positive about the possibility that it all might work out great. Why put the idea in their head if they aren't expressing misgivings? I think Kyle can be a bit of a worrier and a nag and I see her put those negative outlook tendencies on her kid's futures.

Edited January 17, 2015 by FozzyBear

[LotusFlower]

Like many parents in the same situation, perhaps Lisa and Ken were not prepared to deal with Max's problems when they first occurred and maybe they still don't know how to deal with his behavior now, but I do think Lisa in particular is trying.  I'm not sure about Ken, though. 

That's another thing that bothered me about that scene - the way Ken up and left. There's another notch on his good parenting belt (not!). Yes, Max was annoying them about this and that, but at least Lisa was engaged and trying to have this talk, maybe even set some ground rules, or resolve something. Ken just gets up and walks away. Leaves it for Lisa to handle. It seems like he does that a lot, in all situations. Is it because he's older, or maybe not well? Because it seems Lisa is a workhorse and does everything.. Ken just appears to sit in his manor, drink tea, and play with his dogs.

[BluishGreen]

IMO, moving from your home in France or England to a new home 30 miles from your daughter's college in California is the equivalent of moving "next door" to the campus.

[Lemondrop 16]

I'm just going to throw out a crazy idea based on pure conjecture and boredom with this episode. Now this conjecture is based on a couple of solid facts (like all the best conjecture). we know... Lisa is smart, reality TV savvy, this topic made her look bad. We also know Lisa and Brandi talked a lot when they were friendly. Brandi has threatened to out people's secrets if they weren't good to her (she told Kyle in Ojai to behave because she knew things about her and could destroy her if she wanted, the "veiled" threats on twitter to Lisa to out her treatment of Rocio and her fur closet). What if (this is the part that has no facts to back it up whatsoever) Lisa was stratergizing that before Brandi could out her on Max' lack-luster life she would put that story-line out herself? This would be a bold and impressive move. Of course the comments on his genes and comparing him to Pandora still looks bad, but I'll leave that for others to discuss.

[Almost 3000]

I'm just going to throw out a crazy idea based on pure conjecture and boredom with this episode. Now this conjecture is based on a couple of solid facts (like all the best conjecture). we know... Lisa is smart, reality TV savvy, this topic made her look bad. We also know Lisa and Brandi talked a lot when they were friendly. Brandi has threatened to out people's secrets if they weren't good to her (she told Kyle in Ojai to behave because she knew things about her and could destroy her if she wanted, the "veiled" threats on twitter to Lisa to out her treatment of Rocio and her fur closet). What if (this is the part that has no facts to back it up whatsoever) Lisa was stratergizing that before Brandi could out her on Max' lack-luster life she would put that story-line out herself? This would be a bold and impressive move. Of course the comments on his genes and comparing him to Pandora still looks bad, but I'll leave that for others to discuss.

But I'm pretty sure this was in the can before Brandi's tweets.

[WireWrap]

I'm just going to throw out a crazy idea based on pure conjecture and boredom with this episode. Now this conjecture is based on a couple of solid facts (like all the best conjecture). we know... Lisa is smart, reality TV savvy, this topic made her look bad. We also know Lisa and Brandi talked a lot when they were friendly. Brandi has threatened to out people's secrets if they weren't good to her (she told Kyle in Ojai to behave because she knew things about her and could destroy her if she wanted, the "veiled" threats on twitter to Lisa to out her treatment of Rocio and her fur closet). What if (this is the part that has no facts to back it up whatsoever) Lisa was stratergizing that before Brandi could out her on Max' lack-luster life she would put that story-line out herself? This would be a bold and impressive move. Of course the comments on his genes and comparing him to Pandora still looks bad, but I'll leave that for others to discuss.

If not Brandi then maybe Kim, or the 2 together, after what she said about Chad at the reunion last season. Could you imagine what Brandi would say about Max if given the chance to hurt/teach Lisa a lesson? YIKES!

But I'm pretty sure this was in the can before Brandi's tweets.

Not really, Brandi has been threatening Lisa since the reunion last season! And as we all know, this is not something Brandi would think twice about doing. JS

[FozzyBear]

I agree with you, and I posted my friend's experience with their son. Like many parents in the same situation, perhaps Lisa and Ken were not prepared to deal with Max's problems when they first occurred and maybe they still don't know how to deal with his behavior now, but I do think Lisa in particular is trying. I'm not sure about Ken, though. I do believe that they were not prepared to have a problematic child - their life is too organized, regimented - too orchestrated because of their businesses - any problems are like flies in the ointment. I would imagine that they have spared no expense trying to help Max.

I don't think anyone knows if the problems Max had began earlier than the move to California so it's difficult to pinpoint when the problems began. And I wouldn't imagine that Lisa would add any more information on the subject at this point

Just because of my personal experience with adoption (the friend I mentioned, another friend, 2 cousins, me ex, one of my best friends younger siblings) the Foster Care thing has always rung a bell with me. As you can see, adoption isn't outside my world view and every case I mentioned has different circumstances, but adopting from Foster Care is a whole different ball of wax. I don't have any idea of how Foster Care works in the UK, but as soon as they mentioned moving to the USA when Pandora wanted to go to Pepperdine and Max being adopted from Foster Care, I started to wonder. There isn't any practical reason to move so Pandora can go to Pepperdine (if she had said UCLA maybe preferential admission or lower tuition), it's a private school so being out of country shouldn't hurt her chances. And as much as Lisa and Ken seem to adore both their kids and having a close family dynamic, I also don't see them as the type that would object to their kids following a great opportunity, plus Pepperdine is a great school, but hardly the best if the best of American schools ( I'm just saying it's not Harvard). I kind of wondered if one of Max's birth parents was making noise and they were scared and jumped on the chance to move him away from what they thought was a bad influence or a possible court battle. This is based on nothing, by the way.

[LotusFlower]

What if (this is the part that has no facts to back it up whatsoever) Lisa was stratergizing that before Brandi could out her on Max' lack-luster life she would put that story-line out herself.

Why would she do that? I agree that Lisa is smart enough to control the narrative, but this isn't exactly a crisis. And it's not like Max is a drug dealer or anything. What is it that they have to get out in front of? He's just a seemingly directionless kid, with little ambition. Hardly a scandal. If Brandi "outed" this tidbit, it would only make Brandi look bad, not Max or Lisa.

[Aunt Kiki]

That's another thing that bothered me about that scene - the way Ken up and left. There's another notch on his good parenting belt (not!). Yes, Max was annoying them about this and that, but at least Lisa was engaged and trying to have this talk, maybe even set some ground rules, or resolve something. Ken just gets up and walks away. Leaves it for Lisa to handle. It seems like he does that a lot, in all situations. Is it because he's older, or maybe not well? Because it seems Lisa is a workhorse and does everything.. Ken just appears to sit in his manor, drink tea, and play with his dogs.

I've found Ken to be very impatient this season - like he's over the whole reality TV shtick.   I am just speculating but I think he doesn't suffer fools gladly and he has had enough of Max's irresponsibility.  He does defer to Lisa on mostly everything but he seemed to be exasperated at Lisa for lunching with Kyle and then with Brandi - and it wouldn't be a surprise if he was past his limit with Max and was annoyed with Lisa for having him over as the conversation with him didn't seem to accomplish much.