Relationships: Speed Dating

[ursula]

26 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I would have enjoyed that but I think it would have damaged Iris and Barry's relationship. 

Depending on how it's done, it could have strengthened it. And it woukd have prolonged the would they?/won't they? while serving up Westallen UST moments.

[SimoneS]

Iris getting romantically involved with "The Flash" while dating Eddie would have been skeevy, especially in the hands of these writers. They wouldn't even let her break up with Eddie even after she admitted having feelings for Barry. It would also have made her look even more of a fool for not recognizing Barry. 

[ursula]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Iris getting romantically involved with "The Flash" while dating Eddie would have been skeevy, especially in the hands of these writers. They wouldn't even let her break up with Eddie even after she admitted having feelings for Barry. It would also have made her look even more of a fool for not recognizing Barry. 

I think we can all agree that everything to do with Westallen will always be to some degree tainted by these writers. 

When I think of season1-Iris/TheFlash, I'm thinking that first, it would be in the hands of an entirely different set of writers and show-runners and people who value Iris as a the lead actress. Then in terms of story, I don't think romantic involvement necessarily means Iris and the Flash would be dating. I'm thinking more of tension, romantic and sexual, popping up between them as they work together on cases together. Iris giving the Flash intel about a relevant case to him, and vice versa. Iris asking him to look into something important for her, which is even something that they kinda-sorta did with her murdered mentor, only it went nowhere. There was no resolution to that storyline at all. More Iris/The Flash working together basically and sparking off each other. 

I don’t know about her looking a fool — I think the show is actually ridiculous about the cavalier way they handle his secret identity, which makes the treatment of Iris in season  look even worse and worse in retrospect. But it would probably have made Barry look a bit of a jerk for coming between her and Eddie, in a way. I’d like that to blow up spectacularly in his face when she finally figures out the truth. Because that adds another level to his deception, and he’ll eventually admit that he was getting off a little on the fact that she had a crush on him as The Flash. That would lead to a period of estrangement and they’ll have to get back together again.

I probably won’t have Eddie killed off. Considering how many times Thawne has appeared since then, his death became meaningless. He would just leave between seasons, after first trying to get Iris back, then admitting that “there’s always been 3 people in this relationship: you, me and Barry.”

[adora721]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

I think we can all agree that everything to do with Westallen will always be to some degree tainted by these writers. 

I think the "taint" was deliberate to undermine them as a couple. It would serve as a weakness in their romantic armor

Spoiler

so that a certain someone could eventually come between them if AJK had his way.

Thankfully, that never came to fruition.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

I probably won’t have Eddie killed off. Considering how many times Thawne has appeared since then, his death became meaningless. He would just leave between seasons, after first trying to get Iris back, then admitting that “there’s always been 3 people in this relationship: you, me and Barry.”

Still don't like Iris working with and flirting with the Flash, but I agree about not killing off Eddie. They should have never had him reunite with Iris instead he should have decided to leave town maybe even head over to Starling City. I liked Rick Cosnett as an actor, but he was pretty much done once Iris acknowledged her feelings for Barry.

[Katsullivan]

13 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I think the "taint" was deliberate to undermine them as a couple. It would serve as a weakness in their romantic armor

  Reveal spoiler

so that a certain someone could eventually come between them if AJK had his way.

Thankfully, that never came to fruition.

LOL that you marked it as a spoiler. And crying too because for all we know that could still happen. Yes, I am just that bitter and cynical.

I 100% agree that the taint was deliberate. From the "confusion" over their relationship to a first kiss that was erased and Iris never remembers*... They did everything they could to cut the legs off this ship.

*In any other show/story, Iris would have either remembered this herself or been told about it. Think of The Vampire Diaries

Spoiler

season 6 where Elena erases her memories of Damon, falls back in love with him without her memories, then gets them back later. There's no driving narrative reason for her to remember him at that point. She's already in love with him. But it was a foregone conclusion that the memories will come back. 

It's just funny sad how the standard romantic never seem to apply to black women LIs. 

[adora721]

8 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

LOL that you marked it as a spoiler. And crying too because for all we know that could still happen. Yes, I am just that bitter and cynical.

I 100% agree that the taint was deliberate. From the "confusion" over their relationship to a first kiss that was erased and Iris never remembers*... They did everything they could to cut the legs off this ship.

Agree. I'm still waiting for the reveal that Caitlin's middle name is "Fiona"😁.

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Agree. I'm still waiting for the reveal that Caitlin's middle name is "Fiona"😁.

Sorry, I don't get it this. lol. The only Fiona I know is Mrs Shrek.

[adora721]

4 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Sorry, I don't get it this. lol. The only Fiona I know is Mrs Shrek.

I'm referring to

Spoiler

Fiona Webb, the woman Barry almost married after he believed Iris had died in the comics.

Giving Caity that middle name would be a nod to that character and carrot to the SB fans.

[Katsullivan]

7 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I'm referring to

  Hide contents

Fiona Webb, the woman Barry almost married after he believed Iris had died in the comics.

Giving Caity that middle name would be a nod to that character and carrot to the SB fans.

Ugh. 

UGH!

[SimoneS]

While the writers have not always done well by WestAllen, they have never written Barry as having any romantic feelings for Caitlin and never hinted at Barry/Caitlin romantic pairing. 

[BeautifulFlower]

I saw this on a tumblr post about Nora's relationship with the other characters in the future.

Quote

The way she talked about Jenna indicated that she knew her, so she probably knows Joe and Cecile as well.

The first thing that came to my mind, does this person realize Joe, Jenna, and Cecile are literal relatives of Nora? Nora knowing of Cisco, Ralph, and etc rather than actually KNOWING them I can buy.

It got me thinking. What if Joe, cecile, and Jenna aren't in Nora's life? I would really be hype for an episode based entirely in the future. Because I would be really curious as to why Iris wouldn't have them in Nora's life. I would love to what their relationships are like. Iris not being in contact with her father or baby sister. That would actually be interesting.

But that won't happen. No matter what, Iris would never prevent any of Nora's relatives from seeing her.

[BeautifulFlower]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

While the writers have not always done well by WestAllen, they have never written Barry as having any romantic feelings for Caitlin and never hinted at Barry/Caitlin romantic pairing. 

You can't tell some SBs that. They still use 1x12 as a baiting episode even though Barry literally was getting another girl's number. They use the Hannibal kiss which is assault. None of the writing for season 1 ever gave the impression they were setting up Barry/Caitlin. Barry was literally pining over Iris. He was jealous over Eddie/Iris.

When he tried to get over Iris, he dated Linda. He dated Patty in season 2.

It also doesn't help that Danielle said in an interview, Caitlin had a crush on Barry. I never saw the point of why she said that. Season 1 was over. The writing and directing didn't support her statement either.

[SimoneS]

The writers aren't responsible for what a deluded group of fans think. They haven't always covered themselves with glory with their writing for Barry and Iris, but there is no evidence in the writing that they led on Barry/Caitlin (I refuse to use that stupid smash name) fans. 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Giving Caity that middle name would be a nod to that character and carrot to the SB fans.

I highly doubt that DC would ever approve this and the writers have never given any hope to Barry/Caitlin fans so they aren't likely to start doing so now.

Edited February 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

51 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I saw this on a tumblr post about Nora's relationship with the other characters in the future.

The first thing that came to my mind, does this person realize Joe, Jenna, and Cecile are literal relatives of Nora? Nora knowing of Cisco, Ralph, and etc rather than actually KNOWING them I can buy.

It got me thinking. What if Joe, cecile, and Jenna aren't in Nora's life? I would really be hype for an episode based entirely in the future. Because I would be really curious as to why Iris wouldn't have them in Nora's life. I would love to what their relationships are like. Iris not being in contact with her father or baby sister. That would actually be interesting.

But that won't happen. No matter what, Iris would never prevent any of Nora's relatives from seeing her.

I think that the show has been deliberately vague about who Nora knows in the future. We haven't see either Barry or Iris asking her about her relationships with other family members or friends and Nora has lied so much that it difficult to know when she is telling the truth.  I am hopeful that Barry will talk to future Iris at some point so we can find out the truth about Nora's upbringing.

Edited February 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

49 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

What if Joe, cecile, and Jenna aren't in Nora's life?

Well, that's not likely because 5x1 had Nora very adoraby calling Joe, "Papa Joe", Cecile "Mama Cecile ", and Jenna "Auntie Jenna". 

I found it interesting that Nora didn't call Ralph or Cisco "uncle" or Caitlin "auntie". I say this because, in a lot of cultures, close adult family friends are thought of as pseudo aunts and uncles to little children. I suspect Nora knows of them instead of actually knowing them. I'd be curious why that is; so, an episode set in the future would be great. Perhaps the team disbanded once Barry went missing, and Iris was too busy raising and protecting her very young child to remain as leader of the team.

Edited February 27, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

I've enjoyed the West-Allen family scenes, but I hope we can get more Barry & Iris by themselves in the end third of the season. Also Joe/Cecile and poor, forgotten Jenna. Joe/Nora would be nice too.

[Trini]

Joe!

[SimoneS]

On 3/5/2019 at 2:23 AM, Trini said:

I've enjoyed the West-Allen family scenes, but I hope we can get more Barry & Iris by themselves in the end third of the season. Also Joe/Cecile and poor, forgotten Jenna. Joe/Nora would be nice too.

I have to think that Barry and Iris will be having many tense conversations about Nora from 5.18 onward. I expect that Joe and Iris will try to be the voices of reason, but I really hope that Joe takes a hard line with Nora. He has been one of the few people who gets to be tough on Barry and hope it is the same with Nora. After all, her actions have put their family in terrible jeopardy. 

I am not interested in Cecile and Jenna having any airtime. As much as I like Cecile, I don't think that the character is needed. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by SimoneS

[GHScorpiosRule]

46 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I am not interested in Cecile and Jenna having any airtime. As much as I like Cecile, I don't think that the character is needed. 

THIS. With the qualifier that I don't like Cecile. She was better as a sporadic guest star, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm clearly going to hell because I don't give any figs about Jenna.

[SimoneS]

I was skeptical about Nora from the start and have not been pleased with how this story has played out. I really hope it improves in these final episodes. The show has invested so much screen time in a character that is likely to be gone sooner than later. I mean, there is no way she can stay in the past indefinitely, especially since Iris must get pregnant soon.

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Brinny said:

I loved that Joe and Iris got an episode/plot for themselves too (and one where Iris got to be emotionally vulnerable, without undermining how strong she is), but I'm also missing Barry and Iris solo scenes. I honestly think the last real one we got with them interacting on a level that was more than just the two of them being alone in a room together, might have been the crossover when they were on the balcony? And Barry wasn't even Barry then. I mean. Technically, yes. But not really. 

(I have more feelings about this, but if need to elaborate I'll mosey on over the Speed Dating thread.) 

I'd say that 5.12 ("Memorabilia") was a good one for Barry & Iris as a couple. But other than that, 2019 has been pretty dry.

[Brinny]

Very true @Trini. 

My kingdom to have ANY sort of romantic love scene. Although, I guess that might be a little senseless at this point in Barry and Iris's relationship. Like, if they weren't going to give us one when they were dating or newlyweds, why now?

[ruby24]

3 hours ago, Brinny said:

Very true @Trini. 

My kingdom to have ANY sort of romantic love scene. Although, I guess that might be a little senseless at this point in Barry and Iris's relationship. Like, if they weren't going to give us one when they were dating or newlyweds, why now?

This is true. It's especially pointless to ask for it now, I suppose. They didn't want to do it when it should have been an easy, natural call, so why would they do it now? 

It tells me though that the people behind this show have NEVER been truly interested in showing this relationship. At some point they reached an obligation to do it and they proceeded with the maximum amount of caution and some very bad dialogue (even Iris's "I guess it might as well be you" speech to him in Season 2 was hardly romantic- wtf was that? I remember being totally flummoxed. No one could think of anything better for her to say to him?)

They could barely come up with any romance to write for them when they started dating. They did ONE obligatory makeout scene on the couch was was never again repeated, ever. They completely skipped over their first time (a still shocking omission, considering they filmed a first-time scene for Barry with Patty of all people). They did not show a honeymoon or a post-coital scene after reuniting, getting married, getting out of prison, it just goes on and on and on. No physical passion between them.

Now they don't kiss. They don't touch. They no longer have scenes together, just the two of them.

This is the worst treated relationship I have ever watched on TV. I've completely wasted my time.

[Starry]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

I'd say that 5.12 ("Memorabilia") was a good one for Barry & Iris as a couple. But other than that, 2019 has been pretty dry.

Memorabilia was good but aside from that one the last good WestAllen episode was 5x05.

It's also interesting, and with that I mean suspicious, that Barry and Iris didn't kiss in Elseworlds but they made sure to include a random Barricity kiss that was the result of a stylistic choice. I get why, from a story perspective, there was no WA kiss in that moment but the crossover plot deserved a resolution. What happened to Iris being afraid Barry would give in to the dark side? All stupidly dropped.

It's not that 2019 has been dry, we got next to nothing after 5x05. There were episodes where Barry and Iris weren't even in the same frame. They were preparing us in 2018.

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Even Iris's "I guess it might as well be you" speech to him in Season 2 was hardly romantic- wtf was that? I remember being totally flummoxed. No one could think of anything better for her to say to him?

I am pretty sure that isn't a real quote but I agree with the general sentiment you expressed in your post. I don't expect the show to be about romance* but this is 2A level of starvation. A season about WestAllen daughter with barely any WA and/or WA family scenes. Nora has yet to have emotional moments with both parents together.

*Even though Barry and Iris are arguably the heart of the show..

I didn't watch the latest episode but from what I have heard Barry and Iris didn't even know what the other was up to!

[SimoneS]

We talked about the lack of romantic WestAllen on previous page. They film romantic scenes, cut them, and then release them for some odd reason. As noted above, the same thing was done with Barry and Patty. Oddly, enough I think that Iris has flourished during Helbing's era, she has definitely gotten more prominent screen time than when Kreisberg was calling the shots. But as @DearEvette pointed out on the previous page, Helbing simply has no interest writing or portraying a romantic relationship between Barry and Iris. It is an afterthought with him so until the story dictates that they have a romantic moment, it simply is not going to happen. 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

It's also interesting, and with that I mean suspicious, that Barry and Iris didn't kiss in Elseworlds but they made sure to include a random Barricity kiss that was the result of a stylistic choice. I get why, from a story perspective, there was no WA kiss in that moment but the crossover plot deserved a resolution. What happened to Iris being afraid Barry would give in to the dark side? All stupidly dropped.

I agree with you; but the crossovers are always their own ball of ridiculousness, with several other showrunners making decisions with their own goals. After the wedding fiasco, there's only so high I can set my expectations. The shows typically ignore crossover stuff outside of the crossovers, but yes, there should have been a resolution in Elseworlds for that subplot. But that would have meant letting Iris cross over - something that is hard to do, apparently. ::eyeroll::

4 hours ago, Starry said:

It's not that 2019 has been dry, we got next to nothing after 5x05. There were episodes where Barry and Iris weren't even in the same frame. They were preparing us in 2018.

I wouldn't say "next to nothing" but I'm not going to quibble about it. It's much better when Barry & Iris have scenes together, but I don't need them together all the time. I thought the last episode was pretty good for showing that Iris has relationships and a life outside of Barry and STAR Labs (a good thing for the "just a love interest" crowd).
 

4 hours ago, Starry said:

A season about WestAllen daughter with barely any WA and/or WA family scenes. Nora has yet to have emotional moments with both parents together.

Most recently, I think 5.11 and 5.12 were good for West-Allen family scenes. And the next (5.16) seems to be a good one for that too. They could definitely be doing more since they insist on keeping Nora present and involved for the whole season. I know JLM was absent, but it's still dumb that they haven't used Joe and Cecile more to pass on parenting advice/skills/etc. to Barry & Iris. They only touched on it in two episodes? I mean, that's just basic.

ETA:

Edited March 7, 2019 by Trini

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I wouldn't say "next to nothing" but I'm not going to quibble about it. It's much better when Barry & Iris have scenes together, but I don't need them together all the time. I thought the last episode was pretty good for showing that Iris has relationships and a life outside of Barry and STAR Labs (a good thing for the "just a love interest" crowd).

Let me preface that I don't care about the show sticking it to the "just a love interest" crowd. The majority of those people will be disappointed with Iris' story as long as Barry is with her precisely because they are mad she's the love interest.

I am all for Iris getting her own plots outside of the STAR Labs dungeon and interactions with non-Barry characters. My point is, if Barry and Iris are supposed to be in this great partnership then there's no way he doesn't know what is going on with his wife after her encounter with Cicada.

It's not about wanting Barry and Iris to be together all the time. It's about the show separating them even when it doesn't make sense.

Iris was sidelined in a milestone episode like the 100th. She and Barry didn't get a resolution to the crossover plot. She was supposed to bring him back from his rage-fest in 5x11 but her role was split between Cecile and Nora ( TH said one thing, but one other thing aired ). That episode in general spent more time on KF and the metas than on Barry and Iris reacting to Nora's injury. There's nothing wrong about Barry and Iris not sharing screen time in an episode about Icicle or King Shark. My problem is that it has become an accumulation of things. The fact that this is happening in a season that was supposed to be about their legacy, Nora, is even more jarring.

Since Nora is such a prominent character they should do way more with her and Barry and Iris as a family.

I am also not that satisfied with Iris' journalism because it is not consistent. I think 5x13 was great but the first time she talked about founding her paper was 5x12, which was an episode that was also good for WA and Iris/Nora. Before that episode she was apparently content with blogging and giving the team directions through the comms. It's better than s4 but that's not saying much.

The least I say about Barry the better. He barely feels like he's the main character anymore. He has no story.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The least I say about Barry the better. He barely feels like he's the main character anymore. He has no story.

Barry's story is to play Luke Skywalker to Nora's Kylo Ren. It is not a well done or convincing story. It is difficult to buy Barry or Iris as parents to a twenty something year old who acts like a teenager. The show has given Nora and her drama way too much airtime at the expense of her parents.

[Brinny]

From Barry's thread, re: his relationship with Nora;

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

I forgot to mention that it is also disappointing because Barry has a history with two father figures (or even 3 if you count Eobard), so there's lots of stuff to draw from.

Right? I'm not sure why they haven't been able to figure this out. Like you said, they've done it in the past. It is possible to show Barry and Iris being parents to Nora without having them constantly parent her as if she's a child. 

[Trini]

On 3/7/2019 at 3:22 PM, Starry said:

Iris was sidelined in a milestone episode like the 100th. She and Barry didn't get a resolution to the crossover plot. She was supposed to bring him back from his rage-fest in 5x11 but her role was split between Cecile and Nora ( TH said one thing, but one other thing aired ). That episode in general spent more time on KF and the metas than on Barry and Iris reacting to Nora's injury. There's nothing wrong about Barry and Iris not sharing screen time in an episode about Icicle or King Shark. My problem is that it has become an accumulation of things. The fact that this is happening in a season that was supposed to be about their legacy, Nora, is even more jarring.

It seems like Helbing has been making a bunch of promises he can't keep this season. And, as noted elsewhere, there's also been a problem with consistency with any multi-episode arcs. I don't know what needs to change in the writers room, but they need to get it together.

[SimoneS]

In addition to the inconsistency that annoys the hell of me, I think the show's problem is that there are simply too many characters, some of whom replicate the roles of other characters, which puts a strain on the writers to give them all airtime. 

Barry and Iris: They haven't had much romance, but I am okay with them as a whole this season. Iris, especially, has gotten solid airtime and stories with both Nora and Cicada. As I have said before, I think that Barry and Iris parenting an adult hasn't really worked, but I have enjoyed their family moments.

Nora: Her drama sucks up an inordinate amount of airtime even though she is likely to be gone by either the end of the season or the crisis next season. 

Ralph: I now think that he is there to replace Cisco, but his detective skills adds nothing to the team because Joe, Barry, and Sherloque are all detectives. Not surprised that they haven't used him in all the episodes. At lot of the time, he is just standing around offering up a couple lines of dialogue.

Cisco: If Carlos is indeed leaving, they have given Cisco a poor send off. He has been ignored and aimless for the whole season.

Caitlin: They need to give Killer Frost a rest. They have turned it into a mess. I rather they focus on Caitlin. It has been awhile since she has had a romance.

Sherloque: They have clearly run out of ideas for Tom Cavanagh, but I don't understand why they made him a detective when Ralph or Joe could have easily been the ones investigating Nora. Having him play matchmaker for King Shark and his doppelganger's widow was a low point for Cavanagh.

Cecile: I like her, but I don't understand why they made her a regular when they have absolutely nothing for her to do.

Edited March 11, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

When I see this it makes me think: Mr. and Mrs. STAR Labs, and Kid Star Labs 😄 :

Poor Cisco!

[Trini]

I really liked the Joe/Cecile scenes in the last episode, but it still irks me that they have them acting every way a married couple - but not putting in the effort to actually marry them.

(Weekly shout out to poor, invisible Jenna.)

It was also really nice to get a Joe/Barry talk after such a long time. JLM and Grant are good together.

Iris (and Barry) wanting to check off her list of things to do with Nora was a nice little plot, even if predictable. But again I wish this had been shown a more throughout the season.

And Barry helping out Iris with her story, and then everyone being annoyed at them because of their hyper daughter was cute too!

[BeautifulFlower]

In the beginning, they said this season would be about legacy and family. 

We barely get any West-Allen family moments. In the first few episodes, Nora scenes were mostly with Barry; while her scenes with Iris were angst. Starting with 5x06, Iris and Nora scenes don't get a lot of screentime. It's not the case with Barry/Nora.

Every time it's just the three of them, the scenes be less than 3 min.

[SimoneS]

In the interview I read, Helbing said that season would be about Barry's relationship with Nora and his legacy and let's face whenever they talk about the season's themes, they are always talking it from Barry's perspective. They did start off giving Iris a more prominent role in that story before reverting to sidelining her in the relationship with Nora. at least, she is still being included in the family moments with Barry and Nora. Overall, I think that this season has been a much stronger for Iris as an individual character than previous seasons.

[Trini]

Putting aside for a second that it was silly for Ralph to be pushing Cisco to introduce Kamilla to the superhero side of his life because they only just started dating - I did like that Cisco got to voice his feelings about his relationship with Kamilla, and a tiny scene of them on a date.

I will forever miss Cynthia, but it's nice that this new pairing has a different dynamic. I guessing that Kamilla will learn about Cisco by the end of the season. Somehow. What I'm really interested in is whether she'll be around next season. The last time they gave Cisco a serious girlfriend, they didn't lock down the actress. If this is going to be a long-term relationship, I hope TPTB don't make that mistake again.

One thing I don't like is the idea that he has to choose between a 'normal' life and his superhero life, and the two can't mix. But at least it's a story for him?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Trini

[SimoneS]

I wish we had actually gotten to see Cisco on a regular date with Kamilla before learning that they are officially in a relationship. We could have seen them cuddling on a sofa at Jitters if the show didn't want to spend money on rebuilding Cisco's apartment. It would have made me care more about them as a couple, but maybe we aren't supposed to care.

[Trini]

On 3/22/2019 at 9:15 AM, SimoneS said:

I wish we had actually gotten to see Cisco on a regular date with Kamilla before learning that they are officially in a relationship

I wish we had too; but it's typical for this show when part of the couple is a guest star.

However, looking back at the episodes between this and their first date, I'm not sure if a scene with them would have really fit with the other subplots. Maybe Cisco could have made a comment about Kamilla even if we didn't get to see her.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

On 3/22/2019 at 9:15 AM, SimoneS said:

I wish we had actually gotten to see Cisco on a regular date with Kamilla before learning that they are officially in a relationship. We could have seen them cuddling on a sofa at Jitters if the show didn't want to spend money on rebuilding Cisco's apartment. It would have made me care more about them as a couple, but maybe we aren't supposed to care.

Actually... it's weird that they're official but we haven't seen them kiss yet. Maybe TPTB aren't that serious about/invested in them.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

People wanting Barry to yell and angry at Caitlin for once forget that there's going to have to be a scene later where he apologizes. He'll say sorry, that he was wrong, tell her how great she is and they hug and SnowBarry shippers get a nice new gif.  I think we all can live without that.

This. Plus, the opposite of love isn't anger or hate, it is apathy. Barry is written as generally caring, but he is mostly apathetic towards Caitlin. Barry gets angry and lashes out at the people he actually cares about. Unlike Iris, Nora, Joe, Cisco, Wally, even Ralph, Barry simply doesn't care enough about Caitlin to get angry at her in any meaningful way. These last couple of seasons, they rarely have a conversation or scene alone together any more. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by SimoneS

[Starry]

The problem is that while there are no SB scenes where they hug it out Barry is already taking responsibilities for Caitlin's wrong doings and telling her how great she is. After Caitlin kept a piece of the Philiosopher's Stone and tried to justify her actions by telling Barry that she acted out of fear he replied that it was his fault.  Caitlin came back to the team in the season 4 premiere, never apologized to Barry for what she/Frost did to Iris and he told her how glad he was to have her back. When Caitlin tried to defend Ralph to Barry by making a comparison with herself he claimed that unlike Ralph, she was a good person. Even with Joe, Caitlin apologized for what she did to him and Cecile conveniently leaving Iris out of her apology and Joe gave her a hug. All of this to say that Caitlin is being already coddled and praised by Barry, Joe and even Iris during the bachelorette party episode without having heated arguments with them.

Do I think Barry is mostly indifferent to Caitlin? Absolutely. But the writers still throw SB shippers a bone by having him react the way he reacted in the examples I listed.

Also, while Killer Frost's origins may have been sympathetic there comes a time when the characters and the fandom should hold her accountable for her actions. Always using Barry's Flashpoint and her father's experiments to let her off the hook means infantilizing the character. The same argument applies to Nora and fans using Iris' parenting decisions to justify her working with Thawne. Cisco was hold accountable for his actions in the Invasion crossover despite the fact that he was also suffering as a result of Barry's mistakes. Wally was hold accountable in the narrative for keeping his Savitar hallucinations a secret. If it wasn't for Flashpoint Wally wouldn't even be a speedster. Barry is constantly being bashed for Flashpoint and its consequences with fans overlooking the fact that he had just lost his father and evil speedsters had taken both his parents away from him. The mistakes of all these characters have sympathetic origins so I don't get why Caitlin deserves special treatment. Not to mention that some of those bad things were done by Caitlin with no influence from the evil persona Barry and/or her father created ( keeping a piece of the stone, entering a slave trafficking ring ).

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Do I think Barry is mostly indifferent to Caitlin? Absolutely. But the writers still throw SB shippers a bone by having him react the way he reacted in the examples I listed.

I am just going to say this and then I am done with this conversation which is just wack to me.  

The show doesn't throw fans of Barry and Caitlin as a romantic couple any bones, absolutely none whatsoever. Iris is the center of Barry's world, always has been even when he was with Patty. Barry treats Caitlin like a good friend that he cares about in the abstract. I have no idea why a minority of West Allen fans think that Barry actively hating or attacking Caitlin would be a good thing somehow. Barry is a good person. He would never treat Caitlin or anyone that way. Also that elevates her to a level that she simply does not exist in his life and would require they have tons more scenes together which will just make you all even more upset. I view this harping on a character that has no absolutely significance in Barry's romantic life as snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. As dire as this season has been, it has been all about Barry, Iris, and Nora as a family. If there was some competition, West Allen has won. End of.

Edited April 20, 2019 by SimoneS

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The problem is that while there are no SB scenes where they hug it out Barry is already taking responsibilities for Caitlin's wrong doings and telling her how great she is. After Caitlin kept a piece of the Philiosopher's Stone and tried to justify her actions by telling Barry that she acted out of fear he replied that it was his fault.  Caitlin came back to the team in the season 4 premiere, never apologized to Barry for what she/Frost did to Iris and he told her how glad he was to have her back. When Caitlin tried to defend Ralph to Barry by making a comparison with herself he claimed that unlike Ralph, she was a good person. Even with Joe, Caitlin apologized for what she did to him and Cecile conveniently leaving Iris out of her apology and Joe gave her a hug. All of this to say that Caitlin is being already coddled and praised by Barry, Joe and even Iris during the bachelorette party episode without having heated arguments with them.

Do I think Barry is mostly indifferent to Caitlin? Absolutely. But the writers still throw SB shippers a bone by having him react the way he reacted in the examples I listed.

Also, while Killer Frost's origins may have been sympathetic there comes a time when the characters and the fandom should hold her accountable for her actions. Always using Barry's Flashpoint and her father's experiments to let her off the hook means infantilizing the character. The same argument applies to Nora and fans using Iris' parenting decisions to justify her working with Thawne. Cisco was hold accountable for his actions in the Invasion crossover despite the fact that he was also suffering as a result of Barry's mistakes. Wally was hold accountable in the narrative for keeping his Savitar hallucinations a secret. If it wasn't for Flashpoint Wally wouldn't even be a speedster. Barry is constantly being bashed for Flashpoint and its consequences with fans overlooking the fact that he had just lost his father and evil speedsters had taken both his parents away from him. The mistakes of all these characters have sympathetic origins so I don't get why Caitlin deserves special treatment. Not to mention that some of those bad things were done by Caitlin with no influence from the evil persona Barry and/or her father created ( keeping a piece of the stone, entering a slave trafficking ring ).

This exactly.

It's honestly not that we want Caitlin to be screamed at and yelled at by Barry or others - we just want the same rules to apply to everyone.  Maybe everyone could be shown the benefit of the doubt or empathy in times like these - rather than one particular character whilst the rest are left to pay for what they've done (and in some cases, pay for what they didn't even do).

It's like - nobody wants everyone who is unarmed to be shot by cops just because one group is disproportionately treated that way.  We just want the group shot disproportionately to not be shot, lol.

I think the writers made a mistake trying to keep Caitlin clean and pure by absolving her of everything bad she's done.  They've given her scapegoat after scapegoat to escape any responsibility for her actions.  But some of them cannot help but to insert little moments for DP to play out weird moments of antagonism toward Barry ("But what do you care - you get to be with Iris") and Iris (smug looks out of context with how Caitlin is supposed to view Iris given what's aired).

At this point - hell - make Caitlin a true villain.  Let her come out screaming about her hatred for Iris because she has Barry and Cait has no one - just do it show.  Let Iris defend herself against the crazy and don't make Barry flip flop in anyway (no crack ship bait).  Just go ahead and go there - honestly I think the writers want to.

At least it would shake things up.

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I am just going to say this and then I am done with this conversation which is just wack to me.  

The show doesn't throw fans of Barry and Caitlin as a romantic couple any bones, absolutely none whatsoever. Iris is the center of Barry's world, always has been even when he was with Patty. Barry treats Caitlin like a good friend that he cares about in the abstract. I have no idea why a minority of West Allen fans think that Barry actively hating or attacking Caitlin would be a good thing somehow. Barry is a good person. He would never treat Caitlin or anyone that way. Also that elevates her to a level that she simply does not exist in his life and would require they have tons more scenes together which will just make you all even more upset. It is like some West Allen fans are determined to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory by harping on a character that has no absolutely significance in Barry's romantic life. End of.

No one is saying that we want Barry to hate or be angry at Caitlin - you're arguing a strawman none of us are.

Besides - it's not just Barry - it's every character.  Every character has to give Caitlin that teflon coating and it's gross.  How gross is it to ask a character to forgive and beg the character who tried to kill her and never apologized to her for it to be her bestie - her maid of honor?  

That's really awful - it sacrifices the integrity of one character and that character's authentic pov to prop up another one.

So - maybe you think that's "wack" but I think it's worth discussing because that just feels like abusive writing.  

At least they let Cecile be afraid of KF - it's a wonder Iris never was even after all she did.  I mean - the last thing Iris remembers before seeing HR die was KF blasting HER so hard she knocked her out.  It's unrealistic for Iris to never feel afraid or wary of KF and honestly by extension of Caitlin.  

And I disagree about the bones - the show just moved away from showing Caitlin/Barry bones really - now it's all about KF/Barry/Flash shipper bait (the flirting from the pipeline "hey cutie", the ice kiss, etc).  Believe me, I've seen the fan videos and those fans don't separate Cait/KF - so they're getting SB bones in that.

Edited April 20, 2019 by phoenics

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I have no idea why a minority of West Allen fans think that Barry actively hating or attacking Caitlin would be a good thing somehow. Barry is a good person. He would never treat Caitlin or anyone that way.

He treats other people that way is the point. Cisco. Wally. Even Joe once. His daughter and now - after she's being treated by like this by everyone else and taking it silently - he is treating Iris this way.

Pointing out that the writing for the black female lead is racist, isn't a "shipping" thing. 

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

He treats other people that way is the point. Cisco. Wally. Even Joe once. His daughter and now - after she's being treated by like this by everyone else and taking it silently - he is treating Iris this way.

Pointing out that the writing for the black female lead is racist, isn't a "shipping" thing. 

As I said this the whole KF thing happened at the time we all thought it was caused by Barry messing with the timeline and for Barry to get mad at Caitlin would be seen as really shitty on his part. Ditto, Joe and Iris if they still held it against her when it was shown as a different personality. There are people who think they made Tony look horrible in Captain America Civil War for trying to kill Bucky for shit that happened when he was brainwashed(even though me personally thought it was an understandable reaction given the context). If Iris wasn't all "bygones be bygones" especially when Caitlin felt guilt over her actions she'd look petty and mean by viewers. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what would happen. Look at how Buffy fans feel about Xander hating Angel for things Angelus did.

I do wish we had a scene like this scene from Hangover Part II with Killer Frost and Team Flash because it would've been hilarious:

If Caitlin in continued to do shitty things but in her normal personality and didn't get called out for it by Barry and the rest of Team Flash, then I'd concede she gets special treatment and coddled.

Edited April 20, 2019 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

If Iris wasn't all "bygones be bygones" especially when Caitlin felt guilt over her actions she'd look petty and mean by viewers. I'm not saying it's right, but it is what would happen. Look at how Buffy fans feel about Xander hating Angel for things Angelus did.

Only the difference was the Angelus didn't hang around and become part of the team. No one expected Xander to forgive Angelus. 

Iris has been forced to make peace with Killer Frost who actually killed a member of their team. Meanwhile there were actions that Caitlin herself was directly responsible for. 

And yes the viewers would regard Iris as petty and mean for not being "bygones" over the white woman's tears and non-apology: Caitlin or Killer Frost or whatever combination hybrid persona she goes by.... never apologizes to Iris for the role she played. That's the point: Iris isn't allowed to stand up for herself.

[VCRTracking]

I'm just thinking if the roles were reversed we wouldn't consider it Caitlin "standing up for herself".

[Starry]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The show doesn't throw fans of Barry and Caitlin as a romantic couple any bones, absolutely none whatsoever.

I never mentioned anything about romantic couple bones. Barry being nice and kind to Caitlin, never holding her accountable after the crap she pulled is the writers throwing the SB fandom a bone. Never said anything about romance. Whenever I write SB I don't necessarily mean romantic SB. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from? Because I'll be the first to claim that this show has never shown Barry as romantically interested in Caitlin. Not even his evil time remnant was attracted to her evil alter ego.

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Also that elevates her to a level that she simply does not exist in his life and would require they have tons more scenes together which will just make you all even more upset.

Barry holding her accountable does not mean they need to have tons of scenes together. As I said, Barry is already telling Caitlin that she's a good person, that her problematic actions are his fault, etc. If I have to watch Barry prop up Caitlin, I'd rather watch such scenes after he holds her accountable and she apologizes. It would make for better storytelling and characterization.

Since Caitlin Snow is still a Flash main character, make her actions amount to something OR write her out. What is even the point of a character if their actions don't have consequences? It's a waste of screen time that could have gone to something else.

Also, it's not a guarantee that angsty scenes pave the way to a resolution with lots of hugs and tears. I mean, that's what should happen. Hopefully they give us something good with Barry and Iris after next week since angst is what they are writing for them.

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

As dire as this season has been, it has been all about Barry, Iris, and Nora as a family.

This season has been all about Nora with enough Barry&Nora, a bit of Iris&Nora and very, very, very little WestAllen and WestAllen family.

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Besides - it's not just Barry - it's every character.  Every character has to give Caitlin that teflon coating and it's gross.  How gross is it to ask a character to forgive and beg the character who tried to kill her and never apologized to her for it to be her bestie - her maid of honor?  

That's really awful - it sacrifices the integrity of one character and that character's authentic pov to prop up another one.

That episode was absolutely disgusting. The writing was very manipulative in the sense that not only absolved Caitlin of any wrong doing with no apology whatsoever, they also made Iris feel guilty for letting poor little Caitlin feel so isolated to the point that she couldn't confide in her. The writing punished Iris more for being just a work friend to Caitlin than they did Caitlin for being so callous about Iris' life in season 3 and helping Amunet traffick humans. Gross.

Also, Iris invalidating Cecile's feelings in order to prop up Killer Frost is something she should actually be criticized for but fandom doesn't care. They'd rather call her abusive, arrogant and a leech for telling Barry that they are a team ( We Are The Flash ).

4 hours ago, ursula said:

He treats other people that way is the point. Cisco. Wally. Even Joe once. His daughter and now - after she's being treated by like this by everyone else and taking it silently - he is treating Iris this way.

Pointing out that the writing for the black female lead is racist, isn't a "shipping" thing. 

Exactly. Barry can't get angry at Caitlin because he's a nice, kind guy but he can be so cold to his daughter that he banishes her to the future like that? Barry absolving Caitlin of any responsibility, especially when Caitlin's actions put his wife's life at risk but being capable of treating Nora so coldly says something about his character. It says something bad. It says something bad about all the characters that get mad at anyone but Caitlin.

It's season 5, I had made peace with what happened in season 3 and season 4 with Caitlin but then I saw Barry yell at Iris and treat Nora like that and of course it all came flooding back.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Starry

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

Exactly. Barry can't get angry at Caitlin because he's a nice, kind guy but he can be so cold to his daughter that he banishes her to the future like that? Barry absolving Caitlin of any responsibility, especially when Caitlin's actions put his wife's life at risk but being capable of treating Nora so coldly says something about his character. It says something bad. It says something bad about all the characters that get mad at anyone but Caitlin.

It's season 5, I had made peace with what happened in season 3 and season 4 with Caitlin but then I saw Barry yell at Iris and treat Nora like that and of course it all came flooding back.

THIS exactly.  I had - well kinda - made peace with Season 3 and 4, but seeing this happen after the dirth of any kind of scenes between Iris and Barry where they are shown as a loving family - or even interacting - it's been like 3-4 episodes before we finally see them together and it's not even alone and it's Barry yelling at Iris and banishing Nora.

WTAF, lol.

It was triggering for me and that accounts for a lot of my very angry response to it here and in the Godspeed thread.