Relationships: Speed Dating

[lilithred]

Also - I have to put in the optics here: a show casting it's first black woman to play the lead role and the love interest of an iconic character - that's a big deal. It's never ever been done. It would be really bad optics to run over that.

 

If they don't realize how much shit they'd get for this, they're idiots. This is one of the few reasons I am almost certain that Westallen is the real deal. Selling a black woman as the female lead and superhero's main love interest for the first time ever and then being like... "just kidding, we're going to hook him up with this white woman instead"...they'd get skewered. 

[driedfruit]

This is one of the few reasons I am almost certain that Westallen is the real deal. Selling a black woman as the female lead and superhero's main love interest for the first time ever and then being like... "just kidding, we're going to hook him up with this white woman instead"...they'd get skewered.

 

 

This. Perhaps if the ratings were poor and the main couple were extremely unpopular they would risk it, but when it's working? No way. 

[Sakura12]

Well the Arrow writers had the first openly bi-sexual hero, then they tossed at her a garbage dumpster and actually stuck her in a refrigerator. So I wouldn't put anything past them. 

 

Sleepy Hollow also has a black female lead that is hero and has been pushed aside for the white male hero and his white female wife can take center stage. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by Sakura12

[Carrie Ann]

Also, the writers can do the same thing they're doing on Arrow, which is to say "Never say never!" to keep stringing people along on both sides. The story's not over until it's over! So they can put Barry with all sorts of other love interests, in between periods with Iris. And no, I don't think any of these EPs is concerned enough with the optics of their diversity and marginalization issues, so I wouldn't count on that as a factor for them.

 

I don't feel connected enough to any of these characters to ship anyone--for me, GG has better chemistry with Stephen Amell than with any of his actual love interests so far, but I just think I need more time to get invested. But I do personally prefer CP as an actress, and I think there's a lot of potential for the growth of the B/I relationship. For now, I'm most invested in the Joe/Barry relationship, and hopeful that we'll get that level of emotional resonance with other characters down the line.

[Trini]

 

... So they can put Barry with all sorts of other love interests, in between periods with Iris...

 

Eh. I expect this and I'm not phased by it, because it happens on every other TV show.

[TwistedandBored]

I really love Iris and Barry. I also like what I see so far in regards to Caitlin and Ronnie. So, WestAllen and SnowStorm for me. 

 

 

However, my favorite relationship on the show is also the one I have a problem with and it is the Barry and Joe West relationship. As much as I love Barry and Joe, I want to see more of Joe and Iris. I feel like Iris and Joe's relationship is being sacrificed for more Barry and Joe moments which totally sucks. 

[TwistedandBored]

Well the Arrow writers had the first openly bi-sexual hero, then they tossed at her a garbage dumpster and actually stuck her in a refrigerator. So I wouldn't put anything past them. 

 

Sleepy Hollow also has a black female lead that is hero and has been pushed aside for the white male hero and his white female wife can take center stage. 

 

 

Between these two examples, it is Sleepy Hollow that is paying for their mistake. The rating for second of Sleepy Hollow is horrible and the show has been skewered because of it. 

[Trini]

 

SnowStorm

 

Ha! I think I prefer Fire & Ice, though.

[Pacodakat]

However, my favorite relationship on the show is also the one I have a problem with and it is the Barry and Joe West relationship. As much as I love Barry and Joe, I want to see more of Joe and Iris. I feel like Iris and Joe's relationship is being sacrificed for more Barry and Joe moments which totally sucks.

 

I am also conflicted about their relationship. I ship it the most because who wouldn't want Jessie L Martin as your tv dad? I do think they need to flesh out Iris's relationship with Joe and they can do this without it taking away time from Barry, the main character. Good writers know how to create moments with three or four simple lines.

But Joe and Barry have become my OTPP. (platonic)

[phoenics]

Well the Arrow writers had the first openly bi-sexual hero, then they tossed at her a garbage dumpster and actually stuck her in a refrigerator. So I wouldn't put anything past them. 

 

Sleepy Hollow also has a black female lead that is hero and has been pushed aside for the white male hero and his white female wife can take center stage.

You're misconstruing what I said.

What I said was that this was the FIRST time that we'd ever had an iconic superhero's love interest/endgame interest cast as a black woman. That has never been done. Scandal, Sleepy Hollow, etc... not the same.

Also - for the poster who mentioned Arrow - Sara was not in a lead role - she was recurring and not a full time cast member. IF she'd been cast as Laurel and they'd had Laurel as bi, then maybe I could see what you meant w.r.t. what I wrote...

But that wasn't my point.

In this case, they cast CP as the lead - they cast her as Iris. That's tantamount to casting a black woman as Lois Lane. It's THAT big of a deal.

The other examples just don't stack up. I've been as disturbed as anyone about what happened on SH - but it's not exactly the same, as Abbie is not an iconic character in the same way that The Flash, Iris or Lois Lane are.

Also, the writers can do the same thing they're doing on Arrow, which is to say "Never say never!" to keep stringing people along on both sides. The story's not over until it's over! So they can put Barry with all sorts of other love interests, in between periods with Iris. And no, I don't think any of these EPs is concerned enough with the optics of their diversity and marginalization issues, so I wouldn't count on that as a factor for them.

Not exactly counting on it - but as the EPs warned CP to stay away from social media after she was cast and to just not pay attention to it - I think they knew exactly what would happen when she was cast - which means they take the "criticism" of Iris with heaps of salt - because they know a portion of it comes from racism. The rest, they seem to be attempting to counter in the writing. Grant Gustin literally looks like he's captain of the WestAllen and Iris defense squad - he's very active on twitter - especially when someone comes for Iris/Candice in an ugly way.

So - I think they are VERY concerned with the optics and with going all the way with such a historic move to cast a black woman as Iris and everything that comes with that.

I don't feel connected enough to any of these characters to ship anyone--for me, GG has better chemistry with Stephen Amell than with any of his actual love interests so far, but I just think I need more time to get invested. But I do personally prefer CP as an actress, and I think there's a lot of potential for the growth of the B/I relationship. For now, I'm most invested in the Joe/Barry relationship, and hopeful that we'll get that level of emotional resonance with other characters down the line.

I hope so.

Eh. I expect this and I'm not phased by it, because it happens on every other TV show.

Yeah - I expect this as well. That doesn't really impact the whole endgame part for me.

I'm actually looking forward to Linda Park's arc - because I think that will end up propelling Iris toward Barry.

[TwistedandBored]

Ha! I think I prefer Fire & Ice, though.

 

Fire and Ice is more Game of Thrones kinda of a thing. It is literally the shows whole theme. Anytime some says Fire and Ice, I think of Dragons and White Walkers. LOL

 

 

SnowStorm is more The Flash show kinda of a thing which is why I like it.

I am also conflicted about their relationship. I ship it the most because who wouldn't want Jessie L Martin as your tv dad? I do think they need to flesh out Iris's relationship with Joe and they can do this without it taking away time from Barry, the main character. Good writers know how to create moments with three or four simple lines.

But Joe and Barry have become my OTPP. (platonic)

 

I agree. A good writer knows to nurture both relationships at the same time. I just hope we get more Joe and Iris moments in the show. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by TwistedandBored

[bettername2come]

SnowStorm is more The Flash show kinda of a thing which is why I like it.

 

I love when canon ships have cool names, and this one is so much cooler than say, Westallen (not knocking the couple, just the name). 

 

I continue to love the friendship moments on this show, like Barry and Cisco being pissed off when Rathaway said the wedding invitation quip to Caitlin, Barry high fiving Cisco and Joe, Rathaway telling Cisco he knows where Ronnie is, just because it proves he isn't just important to Caitlin, Joe and Eddie working to investigate Wells, and Eddie being wise enough to know that maybe Joe doesn't want to go down that path for Barry's sake.

[phoenics]

I love when canon ships have cool names, and this one is so much cooler than say, Westallen (not knocking the couple, just the name).

I little Flash history for you... but Barry/Iris in the comics fandom was called "NewsFlash" because of Iris' prowess as a reporter... I'm not sure how the CW fandom settled on WestAllen, but oh well, lol. I liked how "NewsFlash" sounded, but I'm okay with "WestAllen".

[TwistedandBored]

I little Flash history for you... but Barry/Iris in the comics fandom was called "NewsFlash" because of Iris' prowess as a reporter... I'm not sure how the CW fandom settled on WestAllen, but oh well, lol. I liked how "NewsFlash" sounded, but I'm okay with "WestAllen".

 

Well in the show, Iris is not this badass reporter yet. So, I guess that is why fans just latched onto WestAllen. I too love the NewsFlash ship name. 

[quarks]

I'm disagreeing with your premise that the decision to have Lana as the love interest first and then Lois second was due to the tv show changing things up, when what Smallville did was in line with the comics.

 

 

I never said that the show tried to change things up, or went against canon. I even said, more than once, that Smallville followed comics canon. All I said was that Smallville started out with one love interest (Lana) and ended with another love interest (Lois) and that both were canon love interests.  

 

However, at now at least I think I get why you keep hammering at this point - you think that I think that Smallville changed comics canon.  (Wow, what a sentence.)  So, to be clear, no, I don't think that Smallville changed canon, or that having the show end with Lois was to try to change things up, and yes, I know and agree that Smallville stuck with comics canon for first Lana and Clark, and then Lois and Clark, and brought in Lois to stick with canon, even though it also ended up breaking with comics canon for one of its supporting characters, Oliver Queen. 

 

So hopefully we're good now?

 

Not the other way around, as you appear to be suggesting (especially since based on timelines it just isn't true). The ONLY time media might have had an influence on the comics is Lois and Clark marrying - but even then they wrote it into the comics first.

 

 

 

Not suggesting - summarizing something that's been detailed in several studies of Superman, extensively footnoted and documented, and discussed by several comics creators. The most accessible recent book on this is Superman: The High Flying History of America's Most Enduring Hero, by Larry Tye, but several other books, doctoral dissertations and scholarly articles detail how several elements now considered Superman canon were initially introduced in the Superman radio show and the George Reeves TV show, and the later decision to focus on Lois Lane because of the Superman movies, the legal battles with the Superman films and Margot Kidder and how DC ordered the Superman comics writers to change direction.

 

You're correct: the decision to marry Lois and Clark off in the comics wasn't influenced by television or the films - that was a DC/John Byrne decision, and the Lois and Clark  show was heavily influenced by that decision. On the other side, Harley Quinn, Chloe Sullivan, John Diggle and a version of Felicity Smoak more closely based on the Arrow version than her original character came to the comics through television.

 

Regarding comics royalty - for what it's worth, probably not much, Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor started up in 1941 and shared plenty of happy bondage moments together.  Then things got less kinky but they more or less stayed paired in the comics until the mid 80s, although they didn't last on the 1970s TV show. That's a longer history than any of the other couples discussed here except Lois and Clark.  

 

Also - I have to put in the optics here: a show casting it's first black woman to play the lead role and the love interest of an iconic character - that's a big deal. It's never ever been done. It would be really bad optics to run over that.

 

 

Here, we mostly agree. Just "mostly" because yes on the iconic character part, but as others have mentioned, no on the lead role part. I'm hoping that the show realizes this and keeps realizing this and does Iris justice, because you're right: this is a big deal.  And because of that, it's very possible that the show will stick with Iris/Barry as endgame - while doing the usual TV crap of teasing both of them with other people before finally hooking them up. 

 

Unfortunately, though, I also have to agree with Sakura12 on this. This is the same group that just decided to represent Flash's heroes and villains with a bunch of white men at the Television Critics Awards.  The one black guy and one woman on their panel were from Arrow, not Flash. This really does not bode well for their sense of optics, especially since that easily could have been fixed by inviting Candace Patton along, especially especially since as the other lead on the show, she really ought to have been there. She even had an unquestioned heroic moment earlier this season. GRR.

 

Yeah - I expect this as well. That doesn't really impact the whole endgame part for me.

 

 

It doesn't for me either in a slightly different way - if Barry/Iris end up as endgame, I expect them to date others.  The same is true for Barry/Caitlin and any other pairing on the show. I do expect the show to play with and tease various relationships, though.

[Actionmage]

Fire and Ice is more Game of Thrones kinda of a thing.

 

 

I think of the fun run of the Justice League in the80s/90s. Fire and Ice being two women, Beatriz da Costa, who could manipulate green flame and heat, and Tora Olafsdotter, a young woman who uses ice magic. Like Captain Cold and Heat Wave, only female and Good. *g*  Good times.

[driedfruit]

And no, I don't think any of these EPs is concerned enough with the optics of their diversity and marginalization issues, so I wouldn't count on that as a factor for them.

 

Except we know they are, since they specifically chose to cast a black actress for Iris. And AK has been vocal about supporting this choice.

 

Also, the writers can do the same thing they're doing on Arrow, which is to say "Never say never!" to keep stringing people along on both sides. The story's not over until it's over! So they can put Barry with all sorts of other love interests, in between periods with Iris.

 

While I expect Iris and Barry to spend periods apart due to plot purposes (say if the show adapted Flashpoint), I doubt there is going to be much mystery regarding their endgame status. It'd be kind of hard to if they want to include the time travel aspects and popular characters like Bart Allen.

 

Sleepy Hollow also has a black female lead that is hero and has been pushed aside for the white male hero and his white female wife can take center stage.

 

Sleepy Hollow is a cautionary tale at this point. But honestly, watching the show, the white dude's main love interest was always his wife, even in season one. If he and Abby were ever going to be a romantic thing, it was clearly going to be the ultimate of slowburns, where they'd never get there until the final season. I don't think the plans have changed much. I don't keep up with that show, but I'll be shocked if the wife doesn't die by season three. Giving her more prominence is season two actually reminds me a lot of Sara from Arrow.

 

And Sara was never the lead. Being gay/bi or a PoC never gets in the way of side characters getting killed off. For the same reason I won't argue that Pied Piper or Cap Singh are destined to make it.

 

As phoenics mentioned neither Sara or Abby are anywhere near as groundbreaking as Candice's Iris, for the same reason that most would find it wild if anyone other than a white actress played the parts of Mary Jane or Lois Lane.

Edited January 28, 2015 by driedfruit

[Oscirus]

Considering that CW just had a heroes panel with  16 of their 18 panelists being white males ( 15 technically but captain cold appears to be a Caucasian on the show) and flash has yet to have had  villain of color  I would say they don't give a damn about how these things look. As for groundbreaking, Lucy Liu is currently playing Dr. Watson.  Even if they did screw up Iris/Barry, as long as Barry/Joe maintained their relationship, things would be copasetic.

 

That being said, I still think that Iris/ Barry is endgame, just not this season. Both have a lot of growing to do.

[driedfruit]

They didn't rub a magic lamp and land Candice as their Iris... I could accept the argument that they don't care enough about diversity, and that they should care more. But consider how hard CW has been backing the beautiful Gina Rodriguez on a show that has terrible ratings, I simply don't buy that they are completely deaf and blind to the issue.

[Trini]

Considering that CW just had a heroes panel with  16 of their 18 panelists being white males ( 15 technically but captain cold appears to be a Caucasian on the show) and flash has yet to have had  villain of color  I would say they don't give a damn about how these things look. As for groundbreaking, Lucy Liu is currently playing Dr. Watson.  Even if they did screw up Iris/Barry, as long as Barry/Joe maintained their relationship, things would be copasetic.

OT/ I'm waiting until his next appearance, but I totally have things to say about THAT.  And the guy who played Blackout wasn't white. Pretty sure. /OT

 

The only other other "iconic" character that I can think of that got cast with woman of color was Maid Marian on Merlin. But I didn't watch that show.

(ETA: It's Guinevere NOT Marian)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Trini

[driedfruit]

The only other other "iconic" character that i can think of that got cast with woman of color was Maid Marian on Merlin. But I didn't watch that show.

 

 

I think you mean Guinevere. That was hell of a cheesy show but I adored her character. The actress brought this lovely warmth and genuineness to her that I haven't seen in other interpretations. But of course the actress and the character received a ton of baseless hate from the fandom, much of it sexist/racist. But the producers fully supported her casting and expanded her role by season 2. And by the end of season 1 they had completely dropped Morgana/Arthur and didn't give Arthur another love interest for the rest of the series. 

 

I used to see the endgame/canon argument from Morgana/Arthur fans who were convinced the show would forgo it--also the same refusal about Morgana growing villainous as I see against Caitlin becoming Killer Frost. I guess fandom never stops hoping tv shows aren't as predictable as they truly are. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

Merlin had...a lot of issues that had nothing to do with race. The odder thing was making Gwen go from servant to queen but that is another show.

And don't even get me started on sleepy hollow, but I don't find the races of the actresses is the problem so much as the writing for me and the acting (Abby is miles better than the Katrina actress). Give me a show that is well written and well cast, whoever the actors are, and I will follow you anywhere!

At present, I don't have a problem with the actress iris but I don't see her interested in Barry romantically at all right now. Is it coming? Will it work when it does? No idea, but I hope they write it well. I did think it was sort of odd his episode that they basically reset iris and Barry as bffs without showing us what iris thinks about his declaration. They just skipped her emotional reaction entirely. That doesn't bode well for me.

Also is Caitlin supposed to be a villain? I kind of hate that and don't see it. I'm "resistant" to it because there has been nothing like that on the show. Some of us don't read comics.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Shanna

[Xander]

I don't think Caitlin will be a villain this season but she could be a villain more in the line of Plastique who can't help hurting others. 

[Sakura12]

Caitlin doesn't become a villain until her accident. In the comics she does have a power similar to the electricity guy from earlier, they are almost like vampires. She craves warmth and feeds off the heat energy of others. The difference for showCaitlin is she has friends that would do anything to help her and I can see them going that route. They may lose her for awhile, then get her back on their side because Cisco built something that she can wear that gives her the heat she needs. 

 

I'd consider white male Watson from Sherlock a bigger iconic character then a comic book character. On Elementary Watson is being played by Asian female. They changed the race and the gender of a huge iconic character. 

 

I also don't ship characters. So Abbie and Ichabod from SH have nothing do with shipping for me. They have a black female lead and replaced her with a white female. On Arrow they had a bi-sexual super hero and tossed her in the garbage for the straight female. My point had nothing to do with their importance or whether or not they are iconic character. The writers will do whatever they want and rarely think about the consequences. They go with whatever they think is cool. I'm not saying that Barry/Iris is not the endgame. I'm just saying that is not something that is absolutely 100% certain to happen, just because Iris is a black female lead. 

 

Also for me Iris should be more than part of ship in the end. I'd be fine with Iris standing on her own in the series finale being a fully realized character alongside Barry. Since they are barely putting that much focus onto her story, I kind of hope they go with Iris West's comic story. That would make her a ton more interesting. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[driedfruit]

The writers will do whatever they want and rarely think about the consequences.

 

That's not totally true. For one writers have their networks to answer to and CW in particular is known for being controlling. Choosing to replace a lead is always controversial, even aside from the iconic aspects. It really doesn't happen very often, and usually not unless there are bigger issues at hand. And Iris has a big and growing fanbase, in which case it would make even less sense. Nothing is 100%, obviously. Grant might actually get struck by lightning and they could replace him with Wally for all we know... ;)

 

Considering SH is on its second season, isn't it jumping the gun to assume Abby has been permanently replaced by the other girl? Maybe the writers have pushed the other girl up front as a way to make her final death more impactful (kind of like Sara being forefront in season two of Arrow then getting killed in three). 

Edited January 28, 2015 by driedfruit

[TwistedandBored]

At this point Twisted and Sleepy Hollow are cautionary tales for those who promise one thing with their show regarding POC and change up in their second seasons. So, I would think other network are at least aware of that. 

However, if CW and the writers see that they can get away with sidelining Iris or making her second lead to Caitlin or any other woman. I feel like they would take that chance. At the end of the day, it is all about Benjamin's for these people. If the show is making money and is getting good rating then they won't care. 

[Shanna]

I see iris and Caitlin as equal, lead wise. Barry is the only true lead - the rest are supporting characters. This is not a show that was set up like Lois and Clark (or sleepy hollow for that matter) with two obvious co leads.

I don't see iris being sidelined, regardless. The family is important here (joe Barry and iris).

[driedfruit]

I see iris and Caitlin as equal, lead wise.

 

 

They're not. Being a lead is contractual, not a matter of opinion.

 

However, if CW and the writers see that they can get away with sidelining Iris or making her second lead to Caitlin or any other woman.

 

 

CW is very savvy about fan-popularity and actors with star quality. I can't see them going for this change based on Candice/Iris' popularity and because Danielle isn't really fit to carry the show as a lead actress. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by driedfruit

[quarks]

Choosing to replace a lead is always controversial, even aside from the iconic aspects. It really doesn't happen very often, and usually not unless there are bigger issues at hand.

 

 

Take a bow, Doctor Who!

 

Also:

 

X-Files. Law and Order. NYPD Blue. The original Beverly Hills 90210. Cheers. ER. The Office. Two and Half Men (this, granted, is the classic example of the "bigger issues at hand."). Spin City (ditto). Stargate: Atlantis. The first BBC Robin Hood. And, oh yes, Smallville. Slightly more arguably, since these characters weren't necessarily leads: Buffy (Angel was introduced as supporting, not a lead). Angel (Cordelia was technically supporting). News Radio (Phil Hartman was technically supporting). Parks and Recreation.  Charlie's Angels. Charmed. West Wing. Downton Abbey. M.A.S.H. The second BBC Robin Hood. The last season of Scrubs.

 

In some cases, the show collapsed after replacing a lead/major character (News Radio, the second BBC Robin Hood, Scrubs.) In other cases the show did just fine (Cheers, NYPD Blue, Downton Abbey) or continued to hang on there (Two and a Half Men, down from its Charlie Sheen days, though still whomping Flash in the ratings.) 

 

Some long running shows do keep their leads/main cast intact throughout the run (Friends). Some don't. Sometimes fans accept the changes, sometimes they don't. Nature of television.  

 

ETA: I included Stargate: Atlantis and somehow left out Stargate: SG1 which also changed leads. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by quarks

[Trini]

For what it's worth, I do think that the producers/writers have learned some lessons from Arrow, and the relationships here have gotten off to a better start. They don't want to make the same mistakes, so I'm giving them some benefit of the doubt. We'll see how things shake out by the end of the season.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Trini

[phoenics]

I think what some of us are reacting to in hearing that "they could switch things up at any time and replace Iris as lead!" is that it's fairly obvious that some fans already WANT that to happen and are latching onto Arrow as "proof" that it could happen if they ship or complain hard enough.

And that kind of "switch it like Olicity" seemed to begin in earnest the moment CP was cast.

Not all of it is that - but a significant portion is.

Yes, things could change. But I think there are usually some major extenuating circumstances that need to be in place for things like that to change.

[Iamsweetdee]

I think what some of us are reacting to in hearing that "they could switch things up at any time and replace Iris as lead!" is that it's fairly obvious that some fans already WANT that to happen and are latching onto Arrow as "proof" that it could happen if they ship or complain hard enough.

And that kind of "switch it like Olicity" seemed to begin in earnest the moment CP was cast.

Not all of it is that - but a significant portion is.

Yes, things could change. But I think there are usually some major extenuating circumstances that need to be in place for things like that to change.

 

What is up with that anyway (I can only guess...)? Also, I wish folks would quit trying to hold up that Felicity character as if she is the holy grail of characters. Not every one likes her. I, for one, am tired of seeing comparisons and I don't want to see her on this show again (yeah, I guess I'll just continue to skip those episodes). 

[Shanna]

Dried fruit- I neither know nor care what is anyone's contract, i am judging by what is on screen and I think iris and Caitlin are pretty on par, screen time wise. Caitlin is part of the work group, and iris is part of the family and friends group. And sometimes they merge.

Phoenics, I think you should take people at face value on this site on what they enjoy, shipping wise. The show hasn't really built a romantic relationship yet for Barry aside from his pining, so aside from "because comics" reasons it's up for grabs. I personally am enjoying both actresses so far and will evaluate the show based on what happens onscreen.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Shanna

[Carrie Ann]

I found the amount of pre-shipping that went on with Snowbarry in The Flash fandom very off-putting. Olicity was a factor, as I think many fans saw Caitlin as the Felicity analog--the sciency girl team member, so they just projected stuff onto Barry/Caitlin before the season even premiered. But there's also, you know, something else going on there.

 

But I agree with Shanna:

 

Phoenics, I think you should take people at face value on this site on what they enjoy, shipping wise.

 

Because implying that people who disagree that Westallen is written in stone have ulterior or subconscious motivations is unfair. So far in this thread, I see a lot of moderate disagreement ONLY with the assertion that Westallen will absolutely be endgame, or that they've already established a great basis for a romantic relationship. And both of those are up for debate. And not that anyone should have to establish "cred" as far as this goes, but I have zero interest in Snowbarry personally, and am tentative about Westallen because I just haven't seen enough to get excited about. I'm slow to ship. I like Iris, and I hope to get invested in Barry/Iris because I would prefer to watch that.

[driedfruit]

Take a bow, Doctor Who!

 

Right, because that's comparable? If the show lasts 20 seasons (or forever, like DW) then, sure everyone is getting replace.

 

My point was that if we're going the usual CW 6 plus change, replacing the lead with a side character is very unusual. It sort of happened with Arrow (but not really since Katie still gets paid like a lead I think). But this isn't the network that replaces its popular leads, and often not even the unpopular ones.

 

Dried fruit- I neither know nor care what is anyone's contract, i am judging by what is on screen and I think iris and Caitlin are pretty on par, screen time wise. Caitlin is part of the work group, and iris is part of the family and friends group. And sometimes they merge.

 

Fair enough. I don't particularly see Caitlin as being that prominent though, since she isn't likely going to get as much individual focus, unlike Iris.

[Shanna]

I found the amount of pre-shipping that went on with Snowbarry in The Flash fandom very off-putting. Olicity was a factor, as I think many fans saw Caitlin as the Felicity analog--the sciency girl team member, so they just projected stuff onto Barry/Caitlin before the season even premiered. But there's also, you know, something else going on there.

But I agree with Shanna:

Because implying that people who disagree that Westallen is written in stone have ulterior or subconscious motivations is unfair. So far in this thread, I see a lot of moderate disagreement ONLY with the assertion that Westallen will absolutely be endgame, or that they've already established a great basis for a romantic relationship. And both of those are up for debate. And not that anyone should have to establish "cred" as far as this goes, but I have zero interest in Snowbarry personally, and am tentative about Westallen because I just haven't seen enough to get excited about. I'm slow to ship. I like Iris, and I hope to get invested in Barry/Iris because I would prefer to watch that.

I wasn't really paying attention to anything pre show unless it was on arrow, but thinking about it, we did at least meet Cisco and Caitlin on arrow lat season right? So in addition to Barry, we already kind of got a head start on their characters too. Unlike iris. So if people really did start shipping them early, than maybe at least some of that was a result of people already having a little but of a feel for Caitlin going into the show?

[phoenics]

I wasn't really paying attention to anything pre show unless it was on arrow, but thinking about it, we did at least meet Cisco and Caitlin on arrow lat season right? So in addition to Barry, we already kind of got a head start on their characters too. Unlike iris. So if people really did start shipping them early, than maybe at least some of that was a result of people already having a little but of a feel for Caitlin going into the show?

Oh I'm sure a lot of it is exactly as you've stated. Also I think a lot of folks just don't ship the "canon" or "clearly the producers want to push this" couple... different strokes and all that.

But there is still a significant portion - not necessarily here - that isn't. It's just an ugly truth.

About Candice Patton's lead status and screen time - if you take the screen time that Iris gets alone with Barry or alone by herself vs with other characters, it's more than Caitlin's. Caitlin has roughly the same amount of screen time as Cisco.

Edited January 29, 2015 by phoenics

[driedfruit]

Because implying that people who disagree that Westallen is written in stone have ulterior or subconscious motivations is unfair.

 

While I agree about shipping preferences, fandom is cesspool of misogyny and other unsavory things, because people's opinions aren't formed in a vacuum. Often times female characters are hated for next no reason, for things that never even gets mentioned for male characters. And to me when criticism dismisses a good chunk of a character's canon existence, that's a red flag. And if shipping involves baseless hating of one character then I do wonder.

 

An example that sort of applies to Iris is the disproportionate amount of fan hate that gets directed at female characters who are desired by a male protagonist but who aren't sexually/romantically interested in him. Some of these characters are well written, some aren't... But then, in my experience, how well they are written rarely seems to matter when it comes to how much hate women get in fandom.

Edited January 29, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

I haven't seen any hate here directed at iris, though. I have seen more dislike directed at Caitlin's actress actually. I quite like them both, although neither matches ebr or Willa holland for me yet.

A bit of an interest in a non "canon" (and lord I am getting to hate that term!) couple does not equal hatred for iris or Candice. I think a lot of times writers are able to write other characters better than the supposed main love interests. I don't know if they try too hard or there is too much pressure or expect things to just fall into place and be accepted or what. There are tons of tv couples who are set up and work beautifully but others...that's where I think it is good for a show to be flexible.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Shanna

[phoenics]

I haven't seen any hate here directed at iris, though. I have seen more dislike directed at Caitlin's actress actually. I quite like them both, although neither matches ebr or Willa holland for me yet.

As you've stated, criticism for an actress (I find DB wooden and a poor actress) does not translate to dislike of the actress. DP seems like a really sweet girl - I just don't think she's a great actress.

If you wanna get to me disliking an actress - bring up Katherine Heigl (hate her - ever since she ruined Roswell with her whiny demands).

A bit of an interest in a non "canon" (and lord I am getting to hate that term!) couple does not equal hatred for iris or Candice.

We know. This isn't what we said.

[driedfruit]

I haven't seen any hate here directed at iris, though.

 

ETA: I can't read apparently, but yeah, not here. But she definitely gets hated on in a general sense.

 

But eh, I find the hate Laurel gets way over the top, so I don't necessarily think p-tv is exempt from uglier aspects of fandom.

Edited January 29, 2015 by driedfruit

[phoenics]

Out of curiosity - does anyone ship ParkBarry? LinAllen?

Not sure what to call them.

My thoughts about this pairing is that it's a way for Barry to be confident and to break out of the situation of pining after Iris. It completely turns the tables on the show. Now, I think it's going to be Iris pining over Barry (or at least confused about her feelings), while Barry/Linda carry on in a similar way to Iris/Eddie.

Come to think of it - have Iris/Eddie had any "close" huggy or kissy moments on the show (sans awkwardness - like the christmas scene where Iris moves her arm from around Eddie) since Barry's confession?

They used to kiss in front of Barry all the time - was trying to remember - has that happened since Barry's confession?

[bluebonnet]

I'm struggling to understand what ParkBarry or LinAllen refer to, but I'm going to take a guess that it refers to what we will see next week.

 

I couldn't get a good read based on the preview.  There was certainly a lot of chemistry but then there is Cisco questioning if it's going too fast.  Though he also later high fives Barry and calls him a ladies man or something, not sure if it's related to Barry's date.  The date looked pretty peeved that Barry was running out on her.  Based on the 5 seconds of material we have, I'm going to lean towards no, not shipping them.  Opinion might radically change after seeing the episode.  

[FurryFury]

Not sure how can anyone really ship a couple that hasn't interacted on-screen yet (and yes, this applies to pre-show SnowBarry as well). One thing I hate about CW shows is how they sometimes make crack pairings between characters that have never interacted canon because a few fans are vocal enough. It happened on The vampire Diaries with Klaus/Caroline (completely ruining one of my favorite characters in the process), and then on Nikita with Alex/Owen (thankfully I've already stopped watching by that point). Maybe for some people shipping is different than for me - more of a sport than emotional investment.

Actually, this is my biggest problem with Iris and Barry - I just can't get invested in this romance. I don't see the dynamic between them as particularly interesting or moving. Maybe this will change, I hope so, actually, but so far, seems like comic canon is the biggest argument for them, and I really don't care about it.

[Oscirus]

Since the only purpose of linbarry is to apparently get Iris jealous, I'll ignore it until they actually get serious pairing him with somebody.

 

It appears that Flash has started a trend since Supergir;'s love interest will be played by a POC.

 

I think that the Caitlin-Barry ship is so strong because I'd imagine that Panabaker has name recognition.

 

Also of interest, Candice apparently ships Candice-Eddie.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Oscirus

[phoenics]

Also of interest, Candice apparently ships Candice-Eddie.

That's not what Candice said. In a recent interview (I think it was MTV), she gave reasons to like both Eddie/Iris and Barry/Iris - she never settled on one. She did what most do, which is laud both and give her thoughts on both. She clearly said in her interview that she wanted Barry/Iris to happen at some point - but even I wouldn't say she ships Westallen over Eddie/Iris because she had good things to say about that too...

So - I cannot get onboard with the "Candice ships Eddie/Iris" - since that's not at all what she said.

Edited January 29, 2015 by phoenics

[Xander]

I personally prefer bickering couples or angsty couples but I'm okay with Barry/Iris. Barry loves her so much and if she realizes that she loves him too, why not? I just needed them to place less emphasis on his pining which they have.

 

I'm most looking forward to Caitlin/Firestorm because if done well, it would be right up my alley. 

 

Perhaps I would care for Iris/Eddie if their every scene wasn't accompanied by a shot of Barry looking upset. It exists solely to rile him up so I can't take it seriously .

 

The same is expected of Linda/Barry with Iris but given that they can't be bothered to give her a POV, I can't trust that's what we'll really be getting. Regardless, I'm looking forward to Barry having some sort of love life. 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Xander

[Sakura12]

I'm shipping ParkWest or WestPark either one works for me! lol

 

I tend to not ship on shows anymore. I find the show much more enjoyable when I'm not worried about whether or not the characters are get together. Except of course when the show starts becoming mostly about the ship or the fans of that ship start taking over the internet with their pleas to make it happen. People can ship who they like, but some of us are interested in the characters has individuals. I think the only couple I ship this tv season is Jamie/Claire from Outlander, everyone else I can take or leave.

 

I'd take Iris having thoughts of her own and storylines where we get to know her over who she's going to end up with. I do like Iris and want more of her then to just be Barry's love interest. 

[FurryFury]

Oh, I understand you, sometimes shipping is a hurdle I have to overcome to truly enjoy the show. I also don't ship anyone on TV right now (I don't watch the Outlander, heard the books are full of rape, that's just not for me), but I do have an OTP in anime (which will never get together), and holy shit, it hurts so much when I think about that.

 

I personally prefer bickering couples or angsty couples but I'm okay with Barry/Iris.

 

Oh, I'm sure they'll become angsty at some point. But probably not too much, the writers have probably learned at least one lesson from Arrow, which set up its main couple with the guy cheating on the girl with her sister. Many viewers just never got over that (lack of chemistry also helped). Still, I doubt the show will avoid the standard will-they-or-won't-they, so be prepared for a parade of never-ending love epiphanies, (almost) hook-ups, misunderstandings, lies and break-ups. I hope I'm wrong, though - this is definitely something I don't enjoy watching. There are quite a few couples ruined or almost ruined by this crap.

Edited January 29, 2015 by FurryFury

[Trini]

 

Still, I doubt the show will avoid the standard will-they-or-won't-they, so be prepared for a parade of never-ending love epiphanies, (almost) hook-ups, misunderstandings, lies and break-ups. I hope I'm wrong, though - this is definitely something I don't enjoy watching. There are quite a few couples ruined or almost ruined by this crap.

 

The thing is for me, is that when shows do that crap it's annoying because it's just obstacles for drama when there isn't a strong reason for the main couple NOT to be together. At least here, Iris is already taken (by a nice guy, too), and Barry was way too late in telling her how he felt. So I'm all for another love interest for Barry -- even though they're probably going to use her to squeeze the maximum amount of angst out of Barry/Iris. (sigh...CW...)