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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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SueB

SueB

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I would love a zombie apocalypse-type year, too.

 

I agree that theorizing about an au makes sense in the context of the "give it until the end of episode 2" comment. I guess I just don't like that idea because I'm not fond of the "it was all a dream" types of deus ex machina. I'd rather that things be dire and them find legitimate solutions.

Me too.  I think it's definitely a set-up for "what the whole world will experience if they don't fix it". Otherwise, if the Darkness just showed up as Amara, the hot snarky chick... meh.  There has to be something at stake to propel the S11 story.  So, I think somehow EP 1 & 2 give us that but the entire world is either not affected or it's a premonition. 

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Considering we have this uber threat called the Darkness that predates God not to mention a fully powered up angel who was bested by a frakking witch spell (see also WTF) who also zapped the Mark right off Dean's arm and possibly God (for those that think Chuck is God) ..I'd have to say the deus ex machina card is already on the table. Just a matter of when it gets played.

 

I'm a sucker for post Apocalyptic stuff. I just want it to be specific to the SPNverse like we had with the Croatoan virus. I don't want to read and hear "Oh look, Supernatural is so old and stale it's stealing from The Walking Dead" crap ...never minding that Supernatural had their own ZA-ish premise/threat with the Croatoan virus as far back as s2 and then again in THE END before the Walking Dead was aired. Yes I know the comics existed long before the show but people that didn't read the comics do watch the show (/raises hand) .

 

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the stuff we see in the first two episodes are visions of what might come, like in "THE END".  Nor would I be surprised to find out that Sam is having visions of Lucifer telling him one thing about how to fix it and maybe Dean's connection to the Darkness is communicating something different to Dean. Thus we have the source of conflict between Sam and Dean that we must always have because you know that's how the show rolls.

 

I don't think that premise necessarily constitutes a deus ex machina. It's just different outcomes if they don't do certain things to fix the problem.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

All I can think is that this is the First Evil all over again.   If Potential Hunters start showing up I am out! 

 

LOL. And myself and others have mentioned Illyria as part of the Old Ones....

 

You know what's scary...is this actually makes sense for a spinoff setup if the boys don't want to go past s11, which who knows at this point.  Theoretically all the hunters should be involved if this thing is so big.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

Me too.  I think it's definitely a set-up for "what the whole world will experience if they don't fix it". Otherwise, if the Darkness just showed up as Amara, the hot snarky chick... meh.  There has to be something at stake to propel the S11 story.  So, I think somehow EP 1 & 2 give us that but the entire world is either not affected or it's a premonition. 

 

Huh, I wonder if it's a case of "we can't kill it, but we can contain it", and the boys somehow put the Darkness in human form and that's how we get Amara. I agree with the "meh" about her, too. But it wouldn't be the first time this series disappointed me with its "monsters" (see: Dragons)

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catrox14

catrox14

Here's what I don't understand

 

If the boys know that someone having the Mark is what will contain the Darkness, shouldn't they just offer themselves up to do that?  Maybe that will be the big quest is to find the Mark and then have Dean be the Mark bearer again and Sam offer himself to sacrifice. 

 

Of course that makes me very nervous that the show will decide that Sam should bear the Mark to make up for letting the Darkness out...oh man....They wouldn't ? Would they?

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

Or maybe they both take it - share the burden? Would that make it easier to bear?

 

I'm thinking though that the mark got pffft... or maybe it went back to Lucifer, so Sam must go to the cage to get it, and he gives it back to Dean and/or they share it. (At least then Lucifer being in the cage and not having locked the gates to hell can be some nice continuity and they'll be serving a purpose (i.e. good thing he's still around and that we didn't lock the gates to hell kind of thing.))

 

But they've already done the "lock the evil back in the cage" thing with Lucifer... which I'm just realizing now that this is even more of a season 4 repeat than I thought. Not only did Sam start the apocalypse again, he let something out of a "cage" again to do it - geesh really Caver...

 

Aaanyway, hopefully we won't have a repeat of stuffing it back in / locking it back up*... I think they can just destroy the Darkness, because unlike arguably the dichotomy with God/good and Lucifer/evil, I don't think the Darkness is needed for anything really. So let's let the guys actually get rid of it this time.

 

* Unless they are going to revisit the not closing the gates, in which case I will embrace the continuity and forgive the locking it back up redo, because if something "makes sense" of the not completing the trials, it would be worth it for me.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I'll be massively surprised if Rowena survives the season.

 

http://tvline.com/2015/09/30/greys-anatomy-250th-episode-spoilers-arizona-season-12/

 

Question: Could we please get scoop on Dean and his storyline on Supernatural, please? I’ll buy you cookies. —Dean

 

Ausiello: ZOMG, you’re such a huge Supernatural fan that you changed your name to Dean? That’s not the least bit crazy. Regarding your question, Dean (and Sam) will have more than just The Darkness to contend with in Season 11. According to EP Jeremy Carver, witchy Rowena will remain “very much a problem” for the Winchesters. Now that she’s got some major magical mojo, “We’ll be seeing her in the early parts of the season deciding what she wants to do with this newfound power, and you’ll see what kind of success she has with that,” he adds. “What makes her an enjoyable character is for all of her power, she’s still ruled by a certain amount of hubris.”

 

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Question: Could we please get scoop on Dean and his storyline on Supernatural, please? I’ll buy you cookies. —Dean

Ausiello: ZOMG, you’re such a huge Supernatural fan that you changed your name to Dean? That’s not the least bit crazy. Regarding your question, Dean (and Sam) will have more than just The Darkness to contend with in Season 11. According to EP Jeremy Carver, witchy Rowena will remain “very much a problem” for the Winchesters. Now that she’s got some major magical mojo, “We’ll be seeing her in the early parts of the season deciding what she wants to do with this newfound power, and you’ll see what kind of success she has with that,” he adds. “What makes her an enjoyable character is for all of her power, she’s still ruled by a certain amount of hubris.”

 

Isn't that every villainous character who has been on this show? I think what makes Rowena enjoyable as a character is her not having two shits to give about much of anything and she will not apologize for it.

 

Anyhoo, yeah, she's toast. 

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catrox14

catrox14

Nice of the brave soul to actually ask a question about Dean. Too bad, noone answered it. Even Rowena can get spoilers.

Ha. This was my reaction. I thought, wait so the question was about Dean, but it's answered with Rowena's arc.. Mmmkay.

I'm hanging on to the tiny hope that these lack of spoilers about Dean is because they have something major planned for Dean and they don't want that leaked at all. Leave me to my denial.

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catrox14

catrox14

Okay so that pic of Amara assuming that's her, is in the same background tone whatever as the shot of Dean looking all confused and freaked out in the trailer we got.

I'm guessing that is who Dean sees in his vision/premonition and if they are flipping the script of s4/s5 then I wouldn't be surprised for her to be the Ruby figure messing with Dean. I would be greatly annoyed and disappointed but not surprised. I so hope I'm wrong.

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

 

According to EP Jeremy Carver, witchy Rowena will remain “very much a problem” for the Winchesters. Now that she’s got some major magical mojo, “We’ll be seeing her in the early parts of the season deciding what she wants to do with this newfound power, and you’ll see what kind of success she has with that,”

Now that she has some major magical mojo, hmm, does he mean the power she has from the book that makes no sense whatsoever that made her powerful enough to remove a mark/lock/key/curse created by God? Seriously the mark/darkness nonsense predates everything but hey, here's a book about it, a book, not even a tablet. Bah, I want to poke Carver with a stick whenever he speaks.

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

You know now that I think about it I'm surprised Carver didn't go with Sam being able to google a solution. Maybe they'll be able to defeat the darkness with info from Wikipedia. Hell, why not!

 

Okay so what I've gathered from the spoilers so far is that Dean and Sam are in episodes and the smog monster/Amara and Rowena are doing stuff, eveel stuff. Did I miss anything?

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catrox14

catrox14

Now that she has some major magical mojo, hmm, does he mean the power she has from the book that makes no sense whatsoever that made her powerful enough to remove a mark/lock/key/curse created by God? Seriously the mark/darkness nonsense predates everything but hey, here's a book about it, a book, not even a tablet. Bah, I want to poke Carver with a stick whenever he speaks.

 

Seriously.

 

I still roll my eyes that she could put the attack dog hex on a friggin r-powered with HIS OWN grace Castiel.  How does that even work??

 

That makes me wonder and ties back to my 'Rowena did it' theory, could Metatron and Rowena been in cahoots in some way before Sam locked her up? It seems to me Metatron would have known about the Darkness (the river and source thing) 

 

Maybe he gave her some of Cas' grace to use against Cas in some way for the hex? Otherwise I can't figure out how that hex would work on Cas like at all.

You know now that I think about it I'm surprised Carver didn't go with Sam being able to google a solution. Maybe they'll be able to defeat the darkness with info from Wikipedia. Hell, why not!

 

Okay so what I've gathered from the spoilers so far is that Dean and Sam are in episodes and the smog monster/Amara and Rowena are doing stuff, eveel stuff. Did I miss anything?

 

LOL.

 

Also, Sam gets an imaginary friend, Baby gets an episode (which still terrifies me that she'll meet a bad fate before the end of the season since she got her own episode) and Dean is going to be washing a car in short shorts.

 

yay?

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

Seriously.

 

I still roll my eyes that she could put the attack dog hex on a friggin r-powered with HIS OWN grace Castiel.  How does that even work??

 

That makes me wonder and ties back to my 'Rowena did it' theory, could Metatron and Rowena been in cahoots in some way before Sam locked her up? It seems to me Metatron would have known about the Darkness (the river and source thing) 

 

Maybe he gave her some of Cas' grace to use against Cas in some way for the hex? Otherwise I can't figure out how that hex would work on Cas like at all.

That would actually make sense, so it won't happen. Now I'm just disappointed that you don't run the show.

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catrox14

catrox14

HOLY SHIT!  Andrew Dabb just tweeted this..

 

 

Okay this is pretty freaky

 


OMG OMG OMG.  They showed the reverse 180 that Jensen did.

 

I'm dead.

 

Help

 

Okay I'm having a lot better feeling about the premiere. 

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

Here's what I don't understand

 

If the boys know that someone having the Mark is what will contain the Darkness, shouldn't they just offer themselves up to do that?  Maybe that will be the big quest is to find the Mark and then have Dean be the Mark bearer again and Sam offer himself to sacrifice. 

 

Of course that makes me very nervous that the show will decide that Sam should bear the Mark to make up for letting the Darkness out...oh man....They wouldn't ? Would they?

 

That's what I don't understand. When Jenson was questioned about anything related to him and the mark, he would say "another good question is where is the mark". I thought it was destroyed; hence the Darkness getting released. Why would it "be" anywhere? Am I misunderstanding? Sorry, the finale was very confusing to me.

 

Unless maybe the mark could still exist even though it had no host to bear it. Like maybe it's just sitting in some astral lost & found box.

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catrox14

catrox14

That video is AWESOME.  And yes, I'm more than a little freaked.

 

 Dabb's tweet 'And so it begins".  The beginning of the end? The end of the beginning?  The beginning of the beginning? The end is near?

 

I will say, I'm not particularly thrilled with Rowena's line of "What has Dean Winchester unleashed on the world this time".

 

NOPE NOPE NOPE. Obviously out of context but at first blush that really pisses me off  because Dean isn't the one that removed the Mark. Rowena, you and Sam did that.  If the Mark isn't removed the Darkness doesn't escape. 

 

Dean killed Death.  Different things resulting in different problems. Grrr.

 

But still that trailer is awesome and I'm just gonna watch that driving  stunt on loop til the end of time.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

That makes me wonder and ties back to my 'Rowena did it' theory, could Metatron and Rowena been in cahoots in some way before Sam locked her up? It seems to me Metatron would have known about the Darkness (the river and source thing)

 

Oh yeah, Metatron! I wonder why they aren't talking about him? I mean they made a point to leave him alive, so I assume that they have a purpose for him. But they are talking about villians in an "overall" sense, but they aren't bringing up Metatron. Personally I love your Roweena & Metatron in cahoots theory and would enjoy seeing that play out.

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

 Dabb's tweet 'And so it begins".  The beginning of the end? The end of the beginning?  The beginning of the beginning? The end is near?

 

I will say, I'm not particularly thrilled with Rowena's line of "What has Dean Winchester unleashed on the world this time".

 

NOPE NOPE NOPE. Obviously out of context but at first blush that really pisses me off  because Dean isn't the one that removed the Mark. Rowena, you and Sam did that.  If the Mark isn't removed the Darkness doesn't escape. 

 

Dean killed Death.  Different things resulting in different problems. Grrr.

 

But still that trailer is awesome and I'm just gonna watch that driving  stunt on loop til the end of time.

Oh yeah, that line from Rowena pissed me off too, but I kinda overlooked it for a second. Begin rant/ why do Dean and Sam get blamed for things that they are manipulated and or forced into doing? Dean had absolutely no part in removing the mark and unleashing the darkness/End rant.

 

My theory is that Dean killing Death is what Rowena was referring to and Carver's comment about her hubris is referring to her blaming Dean instead of seeing her own culpability. Wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

I will say, I'm not particularly thrilled with Rowena's line of "What has Dean Winchester unleashed on the world this time".

 

NOPE NOPE NOPE. Obviously out of context but at first blush that really pisses me off  because Dean isn't the one that removed the Mark. Rowena, you and Sam did that.  If the Mark isn't removed the Darkness doesn't escape.

 

Agreed 100%. Should have been "what in the hell have WE released into this world?"

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

So, I wonder if they used "Oh Death" because they forgot they used it before?  Or if it has some significance we are not yet aware of....

 

I don't think they forgot. I can't imagine Jensen, Jared, Singer, Sgriccia, or the music guys forgetting that iconic cue and arguably the 2nd best character introduction.

 

I think they chose it carefully and to remind us of Death's apparent death and that this is a big deal. I'm happy they used it.

Edited by catrox14
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

It wouldn't be the first time "iconic" music has been reused on the show.  ("Bad Moon Rising", anyone?)

 

ETA  Also, same song, different vocalist.  If it is significant in some way, why not use the same artist?

Edited by Demented Daisy
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catrox14

catrox14

It wouldn't be the first time "iconic" music has been reused on the show.  ("Bad Moon Rising", anyone?)

 

I'm saying I think they purposefully chose that particular iconic cue for the trailer  to remind of us of that character and what his death is going to mean for the upcoming s11. I don't think it's because someone forgot they used it before.

 

M

y theory is that Dean killing Death is what Rowena was referring to and Carver's comment about her hubris is referring to her blaming Dean instead of seeing her own culpability. Wishful thinking on my part I'm sure.

 

 

That's probably the case but it still pisses me off because even with Dean killing Death the Mark being removed was a separate action, that Rowena was responsible for.  And yes totally agree she won't accept that responsibility.

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catrox14

catrox14

On 4th viewing I can't decide which I find creepier, the rabbit, the clown or priest Crowley.

 

I think Priest Crowley....followed by that fucking clown.  The rabbit reminded me of the suicidal teddy bear.

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

It wouldn't be the first time "iconic" music has been reused on the show.  ("Bad Moon Rising", anyone?)

 

ETA  Also, same song, different vocalist.  If it is significant in some way, why not use the same artist?

I thought it was the same vocalist, but I'm kinda tone deaf, are you sure?

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

ETA  Also, same song, different vocalist.  If it is significant in some way, why not use the same artist?

Edited by Demented Daisy, 12 minutes ago.

 

No idea. Maybe they couldn't license that version for the  trailer.  Maybe they could afford a cover version?

 

I don't think the version of the song they are using diminishes the significance of the song for the trailer or what the song meant for the introduction of Death in the show.

 

Maybe they chose the different arrangement to remind us that the original Death is dead.  Sounds like a great question for someone on the show though!

Edited by catrox14
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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

I think Priest Crowley....followed by that fucking clown.  The rabbit reminded me of the suicidal teddy bear.

The rabbit had shifty eyes IMO. Yeah, I just typed/said that in a sentence, why, show, why?

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

From one of Jim's tweets, it sounds like this is something the production staff did on their own (not really "official"), so they probably didn't have the budget for the original music.  

 

Maybe that's why Jensen called it a "super secret promo teaser" on Facebook.  ;-)

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catrox14

catrox14

Just saw this on Twitter from Jim Michaels confirming that the version of O Death here is sung by Lisa Berry who is the woman in the trailer who says "I know you're dying. I can feel it".  I don't see her listed on IMDB for the episode yet.

 

It is kind of interesting because it sounds like that's not an official CW trailer.  I guess that's why it's so much better!

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

From one of Jim's tweets, it sounds like this is something the production staff did on their own (not really "official"), so they probably didn't have the budget for the original music.  

 

Ah, that's why it felt like one of the nine hundred, fifty-two thousand and one videos floating around on YouTube rather than an actual promo. 

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catrox14

catrox14

I have watched that shot of Jensen whipping Baby around way too many times and I'm not sorry and I'm going to watch it again.

 

So badass that Jensen did that. I swear if he doesn't get that car when the show is over there is no justice in the world. (other than his daughter that is).

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Omegamom

Omegamom

Wow. That was amazing! The focus, due to the song, seems to be the killing Death issue.

I think the clown is creepiest.

Maybe the baby is the new Death? Maybe they didn't kill Death, just regressed him?

And who is dying, who is that woman talking to?

Ahhh. Questions.

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catrox14

catrox14

Wow. That was amazing! The focus, due to the song, seems to be the killing Death issue.

I think the clown is creepiest.

Maybe the baby is the new Death? Maybe they didn't kill Death, just regressed him?

And who is dying, who is that woman talking to?

Ahhh. Questions.

 

Oh wow. I never thought of Death as ever having been an infant. Or having been born at all. I always thought he and the other horseman just WERE.  But that is a really interesting idea.

 

Maybe Dean is on a Save Death quest to set things right again?

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