Spoilers With Speculation

Demented Daisy · July 14, 2015

How about Kevin...he was a prophet, after all?

You know, I wondered about that, too. But it feels like the show has completely forgotten about Kevin and Mrs. Tran.

Aeryn13 · July 14, 2015

I mean if Sam is going to be blamed for the Darkness (because Dean is as usual is not at fault), he might as well have a way to fix it. Thought right now I'm getting tired of Sam the screwup. But still if he is always Chosen to screw up, then it's only right he's Chosen to fix it.

The writers blamed them completely equally during the interviews so that doesn`t track for me. This "God/the powers of ultimate light and good choose Sam and only Sam because he is so saintly and wonderful" is exactly the kind of bullshit that made the character unbearable for me over the course of the show. Guess since Charlie is dead, he reclaimed his reigning Sue-title.

ETA For Aeryn, I believe we're getting mostly normal Sam and Dean. Carver's "ish" I suspect is Sam having the GodTV and Dean getting DarknessTV.

Again, I`m not seeing that Dean gets Darkness!TV at all. And I watched that interview. He was questioned about Dean having possibly a personal connection to the Darkness and he hemmed and hawed but said in the end, he hadn`t seen anything in the first four episodes. If he was getting Darkness!visions, I think he would have answered in the affirmative. And yes, he mentioned premonitions. But not that Dean would have them,

All spoilers indicate Sam will get visions/dreams/premonitions again. IMO that was what Jensen was refering to, SAM`s storyline. Not his own. Because he doesn`t have one he could be refering to. That has been true for all the Comic Cons where there was nothing for Dean., Jensen talked either about the brothers which was specifically about Sam, directing or his family life/other random things. The same happened here. Whenever Dean had a storyline, Jensen talked about it at the press junkets. For me, two plus two equals four here.

DittyDotDot · July 14, 2015

You know, I wondered about that, too. But it feels like the show has completely forgotten about Kevin and Mrs. Tran.

I still haven't seen any of the Comic Con videos, so I'm not sure exactly what this Sam-gets-visions is supposed to be, but I think an interesting episode could be Sam getting these visions with Kevin and thinking they were real because Kevin was a prophet and all. So, they go to check up on Kevin and his mom only to find that Kevin had moved on to Heaven when Heaven got back to normal last season. It would be nice to wrap up that storyline and give closure on the mess they made of the souls not being able to get into Heaven in S9.

shang yiet · July 14, 2015

Clearly, there are many Dean fans who don't blame Dean for the Darkness. It was Sam's fault because he ignored wise Dean's advice to leave the Book alone and anyway, Dean had it all under control and what was Sam and Cas so worried about? So Mary Sue Dean is right once more which I find unbearable.

As for the rest, I disagree with you about Sam. He IS wonderful, thank you very much, but in no way saintly. I do not find him unbearable in any way, shape or form.

After having Sam drinking demon blood, sleeping with a demon, releasing Lucifer and almost starting an apocalypse and now releasing the Darkness, if the powers of light and goodness want to have something to do with Sam, well, I am all for it.

Edited July 14, 2015 by shang yiet

Demented Daisy · July 14, 2015

Clearly, there are many Dean fans who don't blame Dean for the Darkness. It was Sam's fault because he ignored wise Dean's advice to leave the Book alone and anyway, Dean had it all under control and what was Sam and Cas so worried about? So Mary Sue Dean is right once more which I find unbearable.

Well, duh. And the Sam fans aren't going to blame Sam. That's generally the way fandom goes when it divides itself like that.

However, plenty of us who are "bi-bro" blame them equally. I blame Dean for taking on the Mark recklessly. I blame Sam for removing the Mark recklessly. They're both to blame for the exact same reason, IMO -- they acted without thought of possible consequence.

Hell, I blame Cas for not doing more to stop Sam. I blame Rowena for performing the spell! I blame Crowley for conning Dean into getting the mark!

In other words, plenty of blame to be spread around, IMO. What the show does with it, we're yet to see.

Aeryn13 · July 14, 2015

So Mary Sue Dean is right once more which I find unbearable.

Not in the show. Which is what counts.

After having Sam drinking demon blood, sleeping with a demon, releasing Lucifer and almost starting an apocalypse and now releasing the Darkness, if the powers of light and goodness want to have something to do with Sam, well, I am all for it.

And I simply want the same for Dean. Last year when he had the mytharc, they went out of their way to say and write how it was not epic and personal stories and bla bla. Now they preen on how epic it all suddenly is and while they would have the chance to do a joint storyline with equal focus, they run towards Sam alone. Dean is likely back to cooking and drawing baths which is oh-so-exciting if you happen to like his character.

Last year at Comic Con, they still had stuff to say about Sam, plenty of it. They didn`t bother with Dean this year. Not a peep. I simply don`t see a reason why you have to be punished that much for the grave sin of not worshipping at the feet of one character but instead prefering another. As if that never happens elsewhere..

Edited July 14, 2015 by Aeryn13

Wynterwolf · July 14, 2015

My S11 uber-predictions:

- Cas cured by EP3, and the immediate crisis of The Darkness is put into a steady-state mode

- It's affecting people and the world, however, and they just can't ignore it. The natural balance is definitely OFF.

I am hoping this means they'll be able to get back to some good ol' saving people, hunting... I am feeling nostalgic for when they used to be able to make real connections to the people they were helping.

SueB · July 14, 2015

Again, I`m not seeing that Dean gets Darkness!TV at all. And I watched that interview. He was questioned about Dean having possibly a personal connection to the Darkness and he hemmed and hawed but said in the end, he hadn`t seen anything in the first four episodes. If he was getting Darkness!visions, I think he would have answered in the affirmative. And yes, he mentioned premonitions. But not that Dean would have them,

All spoilers indicate Sam will get visions/dreams/premonitions again. IMO that was what Jensen was refering to, SAM`s storyline. Not his own.

Aeryn, I presume the other sentences were more opinion that fact so I just want to clarify that I think this reading of Jensen's answer is incorrect. Specifically, that he was referring to Sam's storyline. I went back and transcribed the RAMBLING answer he gave in complete detail. I'll put it in quotes as it's a 100% transcriptions...umms, repeated words, and all. Please note, punctuation is an interpretive dance in a verbal interview and the first words of the interviewer were lost. When he appears to starts a new tact, I start a new line. Best I could do:

Interviewer: ...that Dean could have like a particular connection to the Darkness because he was the one who carried the Mark or is he just as much connected to it as everybody else.

Jensen: Great question. Great question and where is the Mark? Is the question too. Ahh.. Yeah.

So, there's certainly um some questions, some big questions that need to be answered as far as how, why, what, when, where or you know what's going to happen. Ummmm.

Whether or not it it's because a...some sort of of an inner connection because Dean did wear the Mark and now the Mark is essentially the key to whatever this was....ummm there might be a connection.

What, I don't know. I haven't seen it, I haven't seen it in the first four episodes but there have been some flashes of things that Dean.... some premonitions so to speak, ummmm

You know I ....I don't think and I hope it doesn't become ... I'm kinda done playing the guilt that Dean feels. Uhhhh

I think he's over the guilt.

Like, I made my bed. I'm going to lie in it.

Like we've ..we've got the Darkness, the Mark is gone... You're not, you don't have demon blood, I don't have the Mark. Like we're back to normal, we're in the car, we're fighting a common, a common target uhhhh let's just deal with it like we've always. Deal with it and keep pushing forward.

So....I'm excited about, you know, what that scenario and what that gives us as a story.

Ummm... what we're going to be dealing with, I'm not quite sure.

To me there are some key indicators he was talking about Dean's story. First, the question is Dean "particular". Second, while he acknowledges he hasn't seen a connection ("connection" being the "it" in the sentence if I understand correctly), in the first four episodes he says:

"but there have been some flashes of things that Dean.... some premonitions so to speak, ummmm"

That's Dean in that sentence.

Everything up to this point has been about Darkness and the Mark and Dean. Nothing yet about Sam.

Other observations:

- He did NOT want to answer this question straight out! He wiggle-butts for 31 seconds before he finally starts to actually address it. Now he's a good guy and he doesn't blow off her question (which MANY would do) so I have to give him mad props for that. But he down plays as much as possible any supernatural connection between Dean and what's going on.

- Multiple times in the panel and the interviews, he's made it clear that what Jensen wants is "normal" Sam and Dean, on the same page, hunting monsters. Hilariously enough, when Jeremy Carver says "is" to Jensen's statement, Jensen comes back with a plea to flood Carver's non-existent twitter account to get rid of that "ish".

- Jared LOVES the supernatural elements of the characters. He wants the brothers on the same page but he always empahsizes the Chosen One bits.

So... I think it's fair to say that if you've gotten a non-supernatural vibe to Dean's story line, that's exactly what Jensen WANTS. I think it's also fair to say Jensen is not likely to GET what he wants and he grudgingly acknowledged it with this very pointed question.

Bottom line: I think the flashes, premonitions are different than SamVision. SamVision seems to be specific dialog, "flashes" implies those kinda seizure cuts we've seen before with Dean. Not full on scenes. And I think theses flashes are for Dean, not Sam.

An Oh By The Way....

And BTW: These guys were pretty coached on what to say or not say. When they get a question they know they can answer, the response is strong. When it's one they don't like or can't answer, they wiggle butt. Jensen was wiggle-butting a LOT in this question. You can tell when he steers the question back to stuff he KNOWS he can say for sure (or stuff that he knows he can say and WANTS to say). And Jensen is good at avoiding anything he doesn't want to talk about when he gets pitched more generic questions. The reason he couldn't get out of this particular question is because the interviewer worded it in such a way he'd have to ignore it or lie. So.. Jared likes to talk about the supernatural bits (as do the writers)... and they put that into their answers for generic questions. Not so much Jensen.

I know, Aeryn, you are fully expecting a shitty Dean year. I'm not trying to talk you out of that. But I don't think it's fair to make statements like "Because he doesn`t have one he could be refering to." because I don't think you have any facts that support that as unambiguously true.

Edited July 14, 2015 by SueB

Aeryn13 · July 14, 2015

I watched the video of the interview and I stand completely by my reading of it. It is simply too similar to every other interview (Comic Con or otherwise) ever where, in lieu of anything concrete to say, he did this. And I know they get talking points on what they can or can`t say. That didn`t mean Jared couldn`t spoil Sam`s new supernatural storyline. Dabb did as well. So, even if Jensen wasn`t allowed to give out specifics, if there had been something basic to tease, he would have gotten the greenlight for it. That is what Comic Con and the spoilery press junkets are for, for at least the simple "well, something exciting is coming up..."

Jared LOVES the supernatural elements of the characters. He wants the brothers on the same page but he always empahsizes the Chosen One bits.

I know he loves Other!Sam and Special!Sam. And he has, baring last Season, always gotten such a storyline to talk about.

But watch Jensen interviews when Dean had a storyline too. Or at least it looked like he did. It`s not at all like he is downtrodden and dejected about having a supernatural connection for Dean. Pre-Season-4 he was buzzing with excitement. Purgatory (when he probably still thought it would go anywhere), the same. Ditto for Demon!Dean.

If he hated it so much if Dean wasn`t Joe Schmoe on the sidelines, I can`t see his demeanor being like that. But if he doesn`t have anything and he is still trotted out for PR regardless, what is he supposed to do and say? He needs to put some spin on it and needs to sell it as best as possible. Which is what I saw happening here. What I think he is happy about is his hope for less melodrama between the brothers and possibly a Dean who is less dark and shows more levity. I realize he likes that. Well, that and when Dean is being badass.

That doesn`t for a second lead me to believe that Jensen would sit there cursing his life if Dean got a good supernatural storyline. As I said, he had time to show such a reaction in the past and didn`t.

I think that's fair. But I don't think it's fair to make statements like "Because he doesn`t have one he could be refering to." because I don't think you have any facts that support that as unambiguously true.

At this point, I`ve not been proven wrong in ten years with such predictions so I admit I feel pretty sure in making them. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "well, they probably can`t spoil it because it`s too important" and that turned out to be a bust, I`d be rich. And I had bet against that every single time, I would have an untarnished winning streak.

I mean, it`s like I can`t say with 100 % accuracy that the sun won`t explode tomorrow but I`m so sure it doesn`t that I feel comfortable expressing it as a fact. Right now, after this Comic Con, I put the odds of our sun randomely exploding tomorrow higher than I do Dean having any kind of story this year.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Aeryn13

SueB · July 14, 2015

I`ve not been proven wrong in ten years with such predictions

I'll agree to disagree on this with you. Although, if your point is that you've expected for 10 years for it to be a bad story and you feel that it's been a bad story for 10 years ... well, that's a self-licking ice cream cone. Predicting you won't like a thing and then not liking a thing is not evidence of good prognostication.

As for not having a story, I'm believe you are wrong on that. This statement:

"That has been true for all the Comic Cons where there was nothing for Dean."

Is surely inaccurate for S10. You may not have liked the way they truncated Demon!Dean or the Mark of Cain storyline. But it was THE storyline of last year and it was all over Comic Con.

Look, I'm just saying "absolutes" are not really absolute. And it's more uncertain than the potential for solar annihilation.

I had the pleasure of having an 1+ hour conversation with Adam Glass, and 10+ mins with Robbie Thompson and Bobo Berens last week. Glass said it best: we always have a major story plan for the entire year, where we want to go...but sometimes halfway thru we find something working BETTER and pursue that.

As an example I'll give you Rowena. They planned for 3-4 episodes. And she was in like 12 or 13. Because they found it a rich story to plumb. I think they made the right choice.

So, they have a plan for Dean. At a minimum it's fix the Darkness mess. EVERYONE says that. It may not be the plan YOU want, but they have a plan. But they'll also change it if something comes up that they feel works better.

ETA: IF the ONLY story plan that matters to you is that they have a Supernatural Chosen One story plan for Dean -- well....that's NOT the same thing as not having a plan. That's not having a plan you WANT. That really is a different thing.

Edited July 14, 2015 by SueB

rue721 · July 14, 2015

Bottom line: I think the flashes, premonitions are different than SamVision. SamVision seems to be specific dialog, "flashes" implies those kinda seizure cuts we've seen before with Dean. Not full on scenes. And I think theses flashes are for Dean, not Sam.

How I read Jensen saying that Dean has "premonitions, so to speak," is that Dean *feels* he has a connection to The Darkness, not that he has literal premonitions (or even flashes or seizure cuts). Based on Jensen saying he's sick of playing Dean as as guilt-ridden/brooding/angsty, imo Jensen is probably playing the connection that Dean feels as more intellectual/cerebral (i.e., as though Dean has good intuition about The Darkness) rather than emotional (i.e., as though Dean feels responsible for The Darkness).

FWIW, I'm 100% behind Jensen regarding what he wants for Dean. Honestly, based on the direction he went with Demon!Dean, I trust that he's got good ideas about where to take the character, better than anyone else behind the scenes, and I'd be happy just being along for the ride. I hope that Carver or Singer or whoever gives him enough of a free rein to play Dean basically how he wants.

WRT Carver getting put on the spot and everyone laughing in settling in for him to get ripped apart -- is Carver unpopular with the cast, too? And maybe the other writers?

I had the pleasure of having an 1+ hour conversation with Adam Glass, and 10+ mins with Robbie Thompson and Bobo Berens last week. Glass said it best: we always have a major story plan for the entire year, where we want to go...but sometimes halfway thru we find something working BETTER and pursue that.

WUT!

Edited July 14, 2015 by rue721

catrox14 · July 14, 2015

WRT Carver getting put on the spot and everyone laughing in settling in for him to get ripped apart -- is Carver unpopular with the cast, too? And maybe the other writers?

I don't get impression. I think they fundamentally disagree with him about Charlie's demise. He participated in the mockumentary with good spirit so I doubt he would have even been involved if there wasn't some affection for Carver. Because he could have just said "Nope. You can't do it' or I'm not going to be involved. "

I think there reaction was not at all staged and just a spur of the moment reaction to the question. They may have anticipated the question but I don't think the turning the backs on him was a planned thing. JMHO

SueB · July 14, 2015

I don't get impression. I think they fundamentally disagree with him about Charlie's demise. He participated in the mockumentary with good spirit so I doubt he would have even been involved if there wasn't some affection for Carver. Because he could have just said "Nope. You can't do it' or I'm not going to be involved. "

I think there reaction was not at all staged and just a spur of the moment reaction to the question. They may have anticipated the question but I don't think the turning the backs on him was a planned thing. JMHO

Honestly, I was a little surprised she got the question out. There's a person who stands about four feet from the speaker who has her foot on a pedal that literally SHUTS THE MICROPHONE off. You have to show your question in advance and if it's considered insulting, you don't get to ask it. So, her question made it thru screening but if you notice, the microphone got shut off for part 2. Which was fine IMO, because Carver's complete inability to handle part 1 was priceless.

As for the boys reaction, I think they took their cue from the audience. The audience CHEERS loudly as the girl is speaking. And you can tell the moment in the video when the boys see the writing on the wall. Mark just flat out laughes with DELIGHT (I swear, I've never seen him laugh so much as he did Sunday) I really don't think any of them planned the reaction at all. The others smile knowingly but the backing away was pure spur-of-the-moment IMO. And when the audience boo'd over his poopy answer? They started ducking under the table. GOOD CALL. These guys have been doing conventions for years now -- they read the audience correctly and got to express a little of their own unhappiness in a "funny" way. As I mentioned elsewhere, these guys are much more professional "convention guests" than most. They put on an improv show up there versus just a moderator/panel. The only planned schtick was the hamster and the boys didn't know that was coming. Plus Jared's Dad joke about "LOSE-chesters".

Edited July 14, 2015 by SueB

DittyDotDot · July 14, 2015

I can't believe Carver didn't have an answer, like, at all...he's had two months to come up with one, for Chuck's sake! But, I don't think the cast dislikes Carver. I think it was more that none of them was going to go near that question at all. They've been to a couple cons since Charlie was killed, they know how people feel about the issue. They're no dummies. Carver made a mess, Carver can answer the question and deal with the shouty people.

I'm slightly optimistic right now. All I've wanted for the last couple years is Sam and Dean to be fighting the good fight together rather than bickering with each other. Now, whether what they say and what materializes come together, that remains to be seen. But for now, I'm feeling optimistic for some unknown reason.

Wait, SueB, did you spike my Kool Aid again? ;)

SueB · July 14, 2015

Wait, SueB, did you spike my Kool Aid again? ;)

Mwhahahahaha

Actually, it was the Minions I picked up at ComicCon. These guys are really useful.

Edited July 14, 2015 by SueB

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

I'm with you DittyDotDot, despite myself I'm feeling "slightly optimistic" too!! I'm so ready for Dean to be able to get back to being Dean.

One thing Jensen said got me wondering about the Mark. When he said:

Great question. Great question and where is the Mark? Is the question too.

Then with how they're talking about Crowley being "different", is it possible that the Mark went to him? It would be a bit of poetic justice, I think, but I admit I haven't watched the last few eps of last season, so I don't know if something happened that would negate that possibility.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Wynterwolf

catrox14 · July 15, 2015

I'm with you DittyDotDot, despite myself I'm feeling "slightly optimistic" too!! I'm so ready for Dean to be able to get back to being Dean.

One thing Jensen said got me wondering about the Mark. When he said:

Then with how they're talking about Crowley being "different", is it possible that the Mark went to him? It would be a bit of poetic justice, I think, but I admit I haven't watched the last few eps of last season, so I don't know if something happened that would negate that possibility.

Oh gods. Crowley with the Mark? That would be horrible. That's not poetic justice. That's making him the most powerful demon EVER. No no no nono no no.

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

That's making him the most powerful demon EVER.

Do we know that the Mark would react the same on a demon as it does on a human? Because Cain was human when he originally took the Mark on, right? Was there any other exposition on it that I might have missed? I could actually envision this being a bad thing for Crowley, or at least a double edged sword. With great power, there's always a hefty price. Maybe the price for Crowley wouldn't be one he'd be willing to pay, and I think it would be rather delicious if he eventually had to ask Team Free Will for help. But it's just one idea. What are the other options of where the Mark could have gone?

ETA: Ooooh, could it maybe have gone back to Cain and resurrected him???

Edited July 15, 2015 by Wynterwolf

SueB · July 15, 2015

You know, it just occurred to me.... based on one of the Carver comments about strange bedfellows ... to defeat the powers of The Darkness, maybe it's going to take an alliance between Heaven, Hell and Earth. Maybe they'll figure out a way to peacefully co-exist afterwords. Re-establish some natural law rules again so as to put things back in balance.

Edited July 15, 2015 by SueB

7kstar · July 15, 2015

Andrew Dabb, one of the writers for Supernatural, stated that there will be serious repercussions for Dean in the next season for having killed Death.

This sounds like there will be something for Dean's character, what exactly, they may not have gotten it down yet.

Personally, I liked season 1 Dean. I don't think he can be that character totally again, he's gone through too much. However, I was pro brothers 1-mid season 4. I didn't see Dean's storyline as being given away till 5. I still saw moments that were Dean moments though, so there will be something for Dean.

One of the spoilers posted in the last few pages talked about Sam having an imaginary friend. I just think it is easier for the writers to come up with stuff for the younger brother that he either needed protection from or suffered from.

As long as they don't do the Dean's hit rock bottom and dying from guilt, I can deal. IA with Jensen, I'm so done with that.

I liked that Jeremy had to suffer with his decision with the fans in the con panel. Serves him right thinking he could get a way with not having an answer. Although Jensen did save him at the end. He pointed out that Charlie was only supposed to be a one ep character. But I loved how they let him suffer before anyone tried to help him out, he deserves that.

I just hope that we are finally moving into a new direction. Both brother's share the blame in the mess of the darkness. Sam for helping to remove the mark and Dean for killing Death. That has to be addressed. I am a Dean girl, but I can't speak for all fans, but I do blame both brother's for this mess. How they go about trying to fix it matters. So I see a little light in the dark tunnel, so I will see what happens before I blast what they do. An open mind makes it more enjoyable for me. JMV

DittyDotDot · July 15, 2015

Then with how they're talking about Crowley being "different", is it possible that the Mark went to him? It would be a bit of poetic justice, I think, but I admit I haven't watched the last few eps of last season, so I don't know if something happened that would negate that possibility.

I'm sure they could figure a way around this if they tried, but I think the Mark no longer exists otherwise the Darkness wouldn't have been set free. That's what Death said anyway. The Mark was the lock and key and as long as someone bore the Mark, the Darkness would stay locked away. So, if it was transferred to Crowley, or anyone, the Darkness wouldn't have been released.

Demented Daisy · July 15, 2015

http://tvline.com/2015/07/14/supernatural-season-11-spoilers-impala-episode-flashbacks/-- TVLine's fall preview

More flashbacks? Yuck.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Demented Daisy

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

I'm sure they could figure a way around this if they tried, but I think the Mark no longer exists otherwise the Darkness wouldn't have been set free. That's what Death said anyway. The Mark was the lock and key and as long as someone bore the Mark, the Darkness would stay locked away. So, if it was transferred to Crowley, or anyone, the Darkness wouldn't have been released.

Ah, okay... but as you say, they could easily create a loophole where the locking mechanism works if a human is wearing it and doesn't if it shows up on a being that isn't human.

SueB, the idea of a multi-realm alliance was my pet theory, back in S8-halfway through S9 (particularly after Dean did all the realm-hopping, and with backdoors to Purgatory, etc). If they got back to that, I would be ecstatic.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Wynterwolf

DittyDotDot · July 15, 2015

Ah, okay... but as you say, they could easily create a loophole where the locking mechanism works if a human is wearing it and doesn't if it shows up on a being that isn't human.

Cain was a demon and the only one to hold the Mark for centuries. I was thinking they could do a workaround by saying the spell Rowena cast removed the Mark and then the Darkness was released...and then Rowena cast another spell to curse Crowley with it. But, I'm not sure what the point would be. Cain and Dean were both demons with the Mark, so I'm not sure what more they could mine from that.

I kinda hope the Mark is gone and Death really is dead and there's no replacements for those things. The world is broken and there's no easy solution. I too am thinking it's going to have to be Heaven, Hell, Monsters and Humans uniting to find a new order to things. So, I'm kinda hoping none of the old-world solutions work anymore.

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

I kinda hope the Mark is gone and Death really is dead and there's no replacements for those things. The world is broken and there's no easy solution. I too am thinking it's going to have to be Heaven, Hell, Monsters and Humans uniting to find a new order to things. So, I'm kinda hoping none of the old-world solutions work anymore.

Yeah, that would definitely be the best option in my mind too. And I would love for the Mark to just be gone, but from Jensen's comment, I don't think it is so frankly it's the one thing that has me the most... concerned? Which is why I'm trying to figure a way it could be incorporated in. But I thought Cain wasn't a demon until after he took the Mark on? As with Dean, Dean didn't switch until he died while wearing the Mark, right?

Aeryn13 · July 15, 2015

I'll agree to disagree on this with you. Although, if your point is that you've expected for 10 years for it to be a bad story and you feel that it's been a bad story for 10 years ... well, that's a self-licking ice cream cone. Predicting you won't like a thing and then not liking a thing is not evidence of good prognostication.
As for not having a story, I'm believe you are wrong on that. This statement:

"That has been true for all the Comic Cons where there was nothing for Dean."

Is surely inaccurate for S10. You may not have liked the way they truncated Demon!Dean or the Mark of Cain storyline. But it was THE storyline of last year and it was all over Comic Con.

You misunderstood me. I was specifically comparing the times (at Comic Con or otherwise) when he HAD something to say because Dean obviously had a story, like before Season 4 or 10 with times when he DIDN`T have something to say, like now. And that those times, the second category, the reason was never that it was just too big and exciting to spoil. And suddenly this arc appeared out of nowhere. When there was something to spoil, they mentioned it. It was never about big secret-keeping.

Also, at those times when it appeared he did have a story, I was also hopeful. Heck, for Season 4 I was freaking ecstatic. That`s why Suck Song is such a sour thing to me, it retroactively destroyed everything that was good in the previous two Seasons. Then I was hopeful when he went to Purgatory, then when he got the Mark and then when he became a demon. Which shows what a gullible idiot I am to be fooled like twenty times.

But at least those were attempts at stories. Now they don`t even bother pretending at that. Yeah, like I believe, they say nothing at Comic Con, not even the writers who know far more in advance than 4 episodes but suddenly, miraculously the super-secret Dean-arc that was always in the works materializes. I am not that much of a gullible idiot.

I also do believe the writers consider genre plots the most important or the only worthy storylines which is why they`ve given them to the character they consider most important for 9 years out of 10, now appearently 10 years out of 11. Meanwhile Dean gets the sidekick tropes more often than not. Oh, and that godforsaken "point of view". On the hero. Which is also a sidekick trope, we look through the sidekick`s eyes upon the hero, that`s not that uncommon in fiction.

This Comic Con, they just didn`t bother with either. I guess I could be happy that they didn`t spoil another "what the character will be feeling will be his storyline" to which I can only say "fuck you, not it isn`t, it`s happening in or about a story, not in lieu of one" but this is actually the first time they had nothing to say. Not even a standalone spoiler or anything. For all that was said about Dean, he could be Sam`s shirt. Side by side with Sam when Sam fights the darkness, has visions from God and of deceased characters sits on the throne of a Chosen One, has an imaginery friend and so on.

So, they have a plan for Dean. At a minimum it's fix the Darkness mess. EVERYONE says that. It may not be the plan YOU want, but they have a plan. But they'll also change it if something comes up that they feel works better.
ETA: IF the ONLY story plan that matters to you is that they have a Supernatural Chosen One story plan for Dean -- well....that's NOT the same thing as not having a plan. That's not having a plan you WANT. That really is a different thing.

Fix the darkness is also the plan for Sam and lo and behold, they still manage to give him a storyline on top of that. Something that is just about Sam. If only "fixing the darkness" is not good enough for Sam, why should it be for Dean?

If you and another person were equally hungry and a third party gave the other person a steak and you something edible out of a garbage can, they technically gave you both food but would you honestly be alright with that? Seems like a tall order to me.

Both brother's share the blame in the mess of the darkness. Sam for helping to remove the mark and Dean for killing Death

How had Dean killing Death anything to do with releasing the Darkness? The spell happened completely separetely from that. If Dean hadn`t killed Death, the Mark would have been zapped off his arm just the same. I believe the spell would have found it anywhere.

I can only envision the scenario, Dean actually does kill Sam (and that would have been stupid, too, because Death`s entire logic was profoundly stupid), Death has maybe time to put him away (in the episode there wasn`t a lot between Death-goes-kaput and MOC-goes-kaput) and bam, the spell happens because it was already started and noone stopped it. So, we have the Darkness released, Sam dead, Dean on Planet Time-out and Death still in the bar and at least the last two feeling stupid as hell.

What Dean can be blamed for is taking on the Mark recklessly. And killing Death stupidly. So if there are consequences for killing Death, those would fall on him. But for me, those are two separate issues.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

Demented Daisy · July 15, 2015

Could Death have taken on the Mark?

DittyDotDot · July 15, 2015

I also do believe the writers consider genre plots the most important or the only worthy storylines which is why they`ve given them to the character they consider most important for 9 years out of 10, now appearently 10 years out of 11. Meanwhile Dean gets the sidekick tropes more often than not. Oh, and that godforsaken "point of view". On the hero. Which is also a sidekick trope, we look through the sidekick`s eyes upon the hero, that`s not that uncommon in fiction.

Ayern, have you ever considered that it's you who considers the supernatural story to be the only important and worthy storyline? I'm pretty sure the current crop of Supernatural writers think the emotional stories are more important. Why else would the show have turned into a soap opera over the last couple years? Personally, I believe they tend to give more emotional stories to Dean because they know Jensen will land them. Not that he doesn't land action ones too, but I think they give Dean plenty of that to do too.

Also, you might want to consider that it's your interpretation of whether Jensen is excited or not. Personally, I found Jensen to be just as engaged and excited as I did last year at Comic Con and the year before that and the year before that. Perhaps you are projecting your own dissatisfaction?

Yeah, that would definitely be the best option in my mind too. And I would love for the Mark to just be gone, but from Jensen's comment, I don't think it is so frankly it's the one thing that has me the most... concerned? Which is why I'm trying to figure a way it could be incorporated in. But I thought Cain wasn't a demon until after he took the Mark on? As with Dean, Dean didn't switch until he died while wearing the Mark, right?

Yes, Cain was human when he took on the Mark. I just meant that he also had the Mark when he was a demon, as did Dean, and it seemed like the only effect the Mark had on them while they were demons was it made them more powerful. Since it appears the Mark turns it's bearer into a demon, I'm not sure it would make a difference if the bearer was already a demon, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. Cain said he could transfer the Mark to someone worthy, I wonder if it can even be transferred to a demon or if one has to be human when they receive it? Also, does it have to be transferred by someone wearing the Mark? Could Crowley even get the Mark by "accident"? Hmmm?

I wonder if Jensen wondering about where the Mark is will turn out to be anything more than Jensen thinking out loud? It delights me greatly when we fans start picking at something that turns out to be nothing.

Could Death have taken on the Mark?

Another interesting question. And if we rephrase it...Would Death have taken on the Mark?

Demented Daisy · July 15, 2015

Another interesting question. And if we rephrase it...Would Death have taken on the Mark?

A shame we'll never know. I could have been really excited for that storyline. Probably because I love Death, and am going to seriously miss the character, but anyway....

Aeryn13 · July 15, 2015

Ayern, have you ever considered that it's you who considers the supernatural story to be the only important and worthy storyline? I'm pretty sure the current crop of Supernatural writers think the emotional stories are more important. Why else would the show have turned into a soap opera over the last couple years?

I`ve never made a secret of my absolute preference for genre storylines. It`s why I watch genre shows in the first place. If I wanted mundane stuff, there are plenty of other shows that would give me that. However, it is equally conjecture to say the writers must prefer emo. As for why they turned the show into a soap opera. For me the reason is very simple: they just aren`t good and they especially do not work as a writing team nor are they conherently directed to work as a unit. Every writer follows their fancy. And for me, they mishandle both the supernatural and the emo storylines.

Also, you might want to consider that it's your interpretation of whether Jensen is excited or not. Personally, I found Jensen to be just as engaged and excited as I did last year at Comic Con and the year before that and the year before that. Perhaps you are projecting your own dissatisfaction?

I didn`t say I found him looking particularly dissatisfied. I said he was hemming and hawing in terms of describing a storyline again and what that means on the show. If I wanted to see him buzzing with excitement, I watch old Season 4 Comic Con stuff, if I want to watch him keel over from boredom, I watch interviews where Jared describes his wet dream of a Gadreel storyline. This was neither extreme. Like I said, I readily believe he is happy at the thought of less melodrama - which, ha, really, dude? - and more levity. He has said often enough that he likes that.

Ben Edlund was the one who coined the phrase "chauffeur of destiny" for Dean pre-Season 4 and Jensen himself the one who described Season 8 Dean as a "guilty cheerleader". So it`s hardly all in my head.

As for projecting in general, you finding him engaged is no more or less of a valid reading of me occasionally not finding him that. Reading body language and facial expressions can be hard, more so with someone who is in the profession of acting. Short of looking into his head, noone can know. In the end, I don`t really care how satisfied the actors are. Sometimes actors pick godawful episodes as their favourites because the shooting was so much fun or an old friend of theirs was on as a guest star. I care how satisfied I, as a viewer, am.

So who I really wanted to hear something from re: Dean at this Comic Con was freaking Carver and Dabb. Something tangible. Like they had to say for Sam. Jared always pimps his stories in his interviews so I put less stock in that. But the writers? They are a good indicator on where their interest lies. Or where it doesn`t.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

SueB · July 15, 2015

http://tvline.com/2015/07/14/supernatural-season-11-spoilers-impala-episode-flashbacks/-- TVLine's fall preview

More flashbacks? Yuck.

Oh I like flashbacks because it fills in the story for me and we get to see perhaps some characters that we wouldn't get to see again otherwise.

I particularly liked this bit:

That means a return to, ‘We’re not going to ignore things. We need to go back to the very, very basics. It’s not just hunting things. It’s saving people.'”
“There were things they did in the old days that, somewhere along the way, they cut corners with,” Carver continued. “You’re going to see them trying very hard not to do that. And frankly, that’s a lot harder said than done, so it’s going to cause a lot more complications.”

I think one of the complaints over the past three years is that they've become a little too grey. So the "it's saving people" matters a lot to me. I really liked Dean's speech in the cantina where he was talking about their own actions and whether or not they were good or evil. I'm hoping that they vote for "good", no matter the cost. Because that's what made them heroes.

In fact, I think Carver said something about that recently. That what made Dean a hero is that he always chose to do good. I presume he means without the Mark's influence. But even at the end, when he saw he had too much blood on his hands (metaphorically and literally), he called in Death to take him out. As Sam said, that was the actions of a good man. So...I think we'll go back there a bit. To a cleaner morality, even if it's more complicated to pull off.

For me the reason is very simple: they just aren`t good and they especially do not work as a writing team nor are they conherently directed to work as a unit. Every writer follows their fancy. And for me, they mishandle both the supernatural and the emo storylines.

I think the majority of the writers are good, and you personally don't like the stories. Of course, I LIKE the show so I have that bias. I agree there are many clunky moments in some episodes and some of the writers are just not telling the story as I like it. But Berens, Thompson, Dabb, previously Glass, and mostly Carver do very well IMO. B-L, S-N, and Klein are not my favorites but even they put together some stories or elements of stories I really like.

Edited July 15, 2015 by SueB

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

That means a return to, ‘We’re not going to ignore things. We need to go back to the very, very basics. It’s not just hunting things. It’s saving people.'”

PRAISE CHUCK!! **happy Snoopy dance**

7kstar · July 15, 2015

What I'm hearing is the brother's story so I suspect a secret will show up with maybe both brother's hiding something again.

It sure sounds like this is the season to try to redo season 7. Jensen gets the emo because he can handle it. He is pointedly saying he doesn't want to do the angst story-lines, so he is pounding out what does bother him as a person. In that way he is asking for a storyline he can enjoy.

Carver is also more tight lipped than other show runners. He got burned when he killed Charlie, yet stands by it. If Carver doesn't deal with Dean killing Death, if it doesn't create a storyline for him...then he has failed as a writer. This is a storyline that needs to be addressed. To ignore it would be a waste of good story telling.

IA that it appears under Carver that the writers are doing more their own thing than being united together. But the focus seems to be both brothers and if they don't deliver I will not be happy.

I'm hoping that Jensen has something but if he opens up it will reveal to much...and I'm basing that on his interview about what he directed. This last one he directed, he really was tight lipped. Usually he gives something away, but he was really careful, so I think there is some surprises that will only work if we don't know it's coming. I mean it could be the most boring ep ever, but somehow I doubt that.

catrox14 · July 15, 2015

OHHHHKAY...I need some help. Because I was rewatching Brother's Keeper...and for some reason it didn't really register with me what Death was saying about the Mark. Someone help me here.

DEATH: Well, I never thought I'd see the day. (Death sits down) My goodness. Dean Winchester has tipped over his king.

But I won't kill you, Dean.

(Death takes a sip of a red drink through a straw)

DEAN: You're death.

DEATH: And that Mark on your arm is the First Curse.

Nothing can kill you.

then later

Lucifer passed the Mark to Cain, who passed the Mark to you, the proverbial finger in the dike.
(As he’s talking Death walks closer to Dean so that he is right I his face as he says that last line)
DEAN: Well, that is just fan-friggin-tastic, isn't it?
(Dean sits down)
DEATH: So I could remove the Mark, but only if you will share it with another…(Death leans down so the he is eye to eye with Dean)
…to ensure that the lock remains unbroken and the Darkness remains banned.

Soo many questions.

Okay so if NOTHING can kill Dean, who had the Mark...that means not even the First Blade could have killed him, right?

Cain didn't pass the Mark onto Dean, he shared it with Dean, which leads to did Cain know it was the Lock and Key?

The Mark was active when Cain was fighting Dean in The Executioner's Song. Dean only chopped off his hand..he didn't chop off the entire arm with the Mark. And even if he HAD chopped off his arm, that wouldn't have made any difference because NOTHING CAN KILL the bearer of the Mark so that means Cain has to be alive right?

RIGHT??!

Edited July 15, 2015 by catrox14

Aeryn13 · July 15, 2015

I think Death meant it in terms of "that can`t happen or the Darkness is released". He then offered to do as Dean asked, if only Dean agreed to share the Mark before that. Which is exactly what Cain did. So I believe he is dead.

and I'm basing that on his interview about what he directed. This last one he directed, he really was tight lipped.

I thought he was subtly throwing some shade on it. I mean "it`s an expositionary episode"? Oy, that burns. Even if you can`t give anything away, you could still phrase it differently than that. Like "It`s really cool because stuff gets picked up that I can`t get into now bla bla". Jensen is usually very eloquent. There are writers on other shows who work hard to make expositionary scenes not boring (because it is considered that they usually are, if a necessary info-dump. But if an entire episode gets described as expositionary, it doesn`t sound praise-worthy to me.

Which, to be fair, that doesn`t even rankle me. It`s a Nepotism duo episode, those tend to be godawful. And unlike Klein who is a worse writer, they ruin arc episodes. Only Carver is worse than that for he does unspeakable terrible things to the Opener and Enders. Currently, Berens is the best they got IMO.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Aeryn13

catrox14 · July 15, 2015

I think Death meant it in terms of "that can`t happen or the Darkness is released". He then offered to do as Dean asked, if only Dean agreed to share the Mark before that. Which is exactly what Cain did. So I believe he is dead.

There was no stipulation in Death's speech that the power of the Mark to keep the bearer immortal went away by sharing it. So to me if nothing could kill Dean, then nothing should have been able to kill Cain.

Demented Daisy · July 15, 2015

At that moment, nothing could kill Dean because no one else was capable of wielding the Blade. No one else had the Mark.

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

There was no stipulation in Death's speech that the power of the Mark to keep the bearer immortal went away by sharing it. So to me if nothing could kill Dean, then nothing should have been able to kill Cain.

Although, wasn't one of Cain's conditions when he gave Dean the Mark that Dean come back and kill him?

catrox14 · July 15, 2015

I'm sure they could figure a way around this if they tried, but I think the Mark no longer exists otherwise the Darkness wouldn't have been set free. That's what Death said anyway. The Mark was the lock and key and as long as someone bore the Mark, the Darkness would stay locked away. So, if it was transferred to Crowley, or anyone, the Darkness wouldn't have been released.

Didn't the bearer of the Mark have to be worthy of the Mark per Cain back in First Born meaning a killer? Or something that wasn't entirely clear? I don't think the Mark could just be put upon a person without their consent or them being worthy.

OHHH maybe Crowley WANTED to bear the Mark but wasn't worthy and if he doesn't know anything about the Darkness, (not really). So he pushed Dean into thinking he could control him.

The Mark is becoming a very confusing entity. First it was supposedly evil and kept the bearer alive or would make them a demon. But now it's a lock and a key.. so if it's both then the key aspect must be coming round the bend.

I had thought the flash of light or lightning bolts that zapped it off Dean were zapping it back to Earth to open the holes for the not!SmokeMonsters.

Now Cain being resurrected by the Mark makes sense or if Cain never really died. I mean we never saw the body or see him turn into a pile of goo or whatever. Did he just go into oblivion?

I still think Metatron has a lot to do with all of this because he got his hands on the demon tablet.

A

Although, wasn't one of Cain's conditions when he gave Dean the Mark that Dean come back and kill him?

Yes, which is why when Death told Dean "nothing could kill him" which I take to mean literally nothing....I was like then how could Cain be dead.

I feel like I'm not explaining myself well. There is a big ole plot hole here IMO

Wynterwolf · July 15, 2015

The Mark is becoming a very confusing entity.

LOL, yes... yes it is. I think... at least with what I'm remembering/know at this time, that the First Blade could kill the bearer of the Mark, so only someone who had been passed the Mark could kill someone who had the Mark. So Cain was able to kill all his Knights of Hell that he created. But he created Dean so that Dean could come back and kill him. But with Cain (presumably) dead, there is no one left who has the Mark, and if Dean wouldn't pass it on, there would be no one who could wield the Blade and kill him... I think.

ETA: Or what Demented Daisy said much more succinctly.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Wynterwolf

DittyDotDot · July 15, 2015

Yes, which is why when Death told Dean "nothing could kill him" which I take to mean literally nothing....I was like then how could Cain be dead.

Points to the Demented one's post above:

At that moment, nothing could kill Dean because no one else was capable of wielding the Blade. No one else had the Mark.

catrox14 · July 15, 2015

Sigh, I guess that's what they were going for but it still doesn't sit right with me.

We all know the First Blade is out there and Cas knows where it is. So how hard could it have been to just put some dialogue in there addressing this directly.

Death :"Dean, nothing can kill you now since you killed Cain"

Dean: "Why? Cas has the First Blade. I don't want him to have to kill me but why can't he give it to you? Can't you do it with the First Blade? I mean, come on, man, YOU'RE DEATH! "

Death: "Once more, the annoying protozoa doesn't get it. The Mark is keeping out something more powerful than me...or God"

Dean: "What the hell?"

Death: "No, it's the Darkness. It's amoral primordial ooze that crossed the universe. It's older than actual dirt"

Dean: "Okay so what does that have to do with getting this THING OFF MY ARM?"

Death: "It's both Lock and Key...blah blah blah"

At least that's how it is in my head.

Sigh.

MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND · July 15, 2015

Sigh, I guess that's what they were going for but it still doesn't sit right with me.

We all know the First Blade is out there and Cas knows where it is. So how hard could it have been to just put some dialogue in there addressing this directly.

Death :"Dean, nothing can kill you now since you killed Cain"

Dean: "Why? Cas has the First Blade. I don't want him to have to kill me but why can't he give it to you? Can't you do it with the First Blade? I mean, come on, man, YOU'RE DEATH! "

Death: "Once more, the annoying protozoa doesn't get it. The Mark is keeping out something more powerful than me...or God"

Dean: "What the hell?"

Death: "No, it's the Darkness. It's amoral primordial ooze that crossed the universe. It's older than actual dirt"

Dean: "Okay so what does that have to do with getting this THING OFF MY ARM?"

Death: "It's both Lock and Key...blah blah blah"

At least that's how it is in my head.

Sigh.

I understood it like this as well.

SueB · July 15, 2015

I think Crowley, Cas and Metatron all said that it was God-level magic. Crowley mentioned it was like Dean was protected from "on high", which says to me that the protection is to protect the lock and key (i.e. the Mark). I think there was not more than ONE lock and key (i.e. it was transferred from Cain). Cain still had his demonic powers (which were above Crowley's) plus he probably had the ability to take BACK the lock and key, so I could see how he was still very powerful. But I think that once the lock and key passed to Dean, Cain could be killed -- by the First Blade and the bearer of the Mark. Dean would have needed to transfer it for Death to kill him.

I'm still stunned that Death is Dead. It appears humanity (aka Dean Freaking' Winchester -- again), was his weakness.

ETA: I don't know if Crowley will be back to his snark-tastic self, but oh how I wish we could have something along the following lines:

Cas: You killed Death?

Dean: Uh, yeah. Looks like.

Cas: Why?
Crowley: Because it was bloody-freaking Wednesday and Samatha was in trouble! Because he could! Because that's WHAT THEY DO!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm sure we won't get anything like this, but Mark Sheppard and Misha Collins could rock the hell out of a scene like that..

Edited July 15, 2015 by SueB

catrox14 · July 16, 2015

Eh....that's a lot of gap filling that bugs me.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate the head!Canon but I'm not understanding how or why Cain who was apparently protected the same way as Dean for thousands of years, suddenly becomes less protected just because he shared the Mark. I mean wouldn't they want MORE Mark bearers, like an army of Mark bearers to ensure. So why make the Mark bearer killable at all?

I'm so confused.

I mean they never said "There can only be one"...which they should have just done that and I would have been ...okay...I guess. But this is really bugging me. LOL

catrox14 · July 16, 2015

...And another thing....

What exactly makes a demon a Knight of Hell? Like Cain said he trained them all but were they all created via the Mark?

Wynterwolf · July 16, 2015

Details, details... heh, to be honest I think they left as much as they could as vague as possible so they could create "lore" as they needed it for "story purposes".

catrox14 · July 16, 2015

Welp the CW is off the table for the crossover event blind . Spoilers ahead

It's going to be Bones and Sleepy Hollow. Like how in the hell is that supposed to work. Sigh that's a terrible idea. I'm already pissed off at Sleepy Hollow as it is.

catrox14 · July 17, 2015

Wait a minute.....did Ruth just spoil Rowena's exit from the show or just the episode..

Ruth Connell ♕ ‏@RuthieConnell 20h20 hours ago

Beautiful view from my balcony #cheers #ItsAWrapOnRuthie #Supernatural #JensensEpisode #luckyLady night night Rxxxxxx

Diane · July 17, 2015

I think since she said jensens episode, that it might just be that episode, but who knows.

Sign In

Spoilers With Speculation

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

PeterKahlke

devlin

gonzosgirrl

Posted Images

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment