Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

Extended promo (thanks to Winchester Bros for the tip).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDfHEVDd5r4

 

Forget everything else -- Dean is wearing a hoodie.  I watch for the plot. 

[Demented Daisy]

By the way, Rowena's a witch (you know, like Voldemort).  I would not be surprised if she's the one who comes up with this idea.  Or maybe Crowley, if he's been running a long con this whole time as a way to permanently rid himself of the Winchesters....  Knowing that they have a scary tendency to sacrifice themselves....  Plus, it had the added benefit of ridding himself of Abbadon.

 

If so, why did they have to make him so damn boring in the interim?  Maybe that's why they brought Rowena in, to distract us from what Crowley has actually been doing.

 

Regardless, Crowley needs to die.  ;-)

 

ETA  A cursed book?  That's another (possible) Harry Potter reference.  Arthur Weasley, head of the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office, once found a book that you could never stop reading.  Literally -- you couldn't put it down.  Everything you did had to be done without looking away from the book.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention before -- Harry sacrificed himself to save the entire wizarding community.  It's how the horcrux inside him was destroyed.  If Dean sacrificed himself for the love of his brother(s), would that be enough to destroy the curse of the Mark?

 

Long story short, someone is getting sacrificed at the end of the season.  Or a whole bunch of people.  Maybe the 3 of them get in the Impala and drive off a cliff....  ;-)

Edited April 2, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Um can we talk about the fact that Dean is throttling Sam in that clip?

[SueB]

 

Maybe the 3 of them get in the Impala and drive off a cliff....  ;-)

Yes, but do they all kiss like Thelma and Louise?

 

Um can we talk about the fact that Dean is throttling Sam in that clip?

Someone on Tumblr posted a close-up.  Not Sam, it's the guest star.  I was so glad they posted that.  That shit's important to me.

[catrox14]

Yes, but do they all kiss like Thelma and Louise?

 

Someone on Tumblr posted a close-up.  Not Sam, it's the guest star.  I was so glad they posted that.  That shit's important to me.

 

Huh? Did you mean to say the guest star is throttling Sam instead of Dean throttling Sam? The hand at Sam's throat is attached to an arm with a black sleeve. Then Sam's hand is covering the other hand. That sure looks an awful lot like the back of Dean's head.

 

Can you post the Tumblr pic?

Edited April 2, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

Yes guest star throttling Sam.

 

Jensen posted a pic with Baby last night. On Facebook he said:

 

Just writing a little note on the hood of baby...per request of the props department. Keep a look out for it in the final episode. ‪#‎supernaturalFinale‬

Per the request of the props department.  I swear...if he's GIVING SAM BABY it's all over.  Just me, random speculating. But it would be an appropriate parallel with "Sammy Let Me Go" plus ...okay, I'm traumatized.  

[Demented Daisy]

It's also S3 finale parallel....

[SueB]

It's also S3 finale parallel....

Stop please. It's 11:12am on a Thursday. If I start drinking now, people will start to whisper.

[Demented Daisy]

Stop please. It's 11:12am on a Thursday. If I start drinking now, people will start to whisper.

 

If you start drinking now, you'll be comatose by the season finale.  Stay strong!

[SueB]

If you start drinking now, you'll be comatose by the season finale.  Stay strong!

working on it.  Found a bit of hope in the response he gave to a journalist/blogger:

 

 

Carina MacKenzie ‏@cadlymack  8h8 hours ago

@JensenAckles oh god stop dying

@cadlymack not dying babe...just working.  Don't lose faith.

Don't lose faith.  Hmmm....not dying. Not sure I believe him, exactly. Too many options on Supernatural.  And yes, he called her babe.  She's done interviews with him before and always gets the good stuff. 

[catrox14]

Yes guest star throttling Sam.

 

Jensen posted a pic with Baby last night. On Facebook he said:

Per the request of the props department.  I swear...if he's GIVING SAM BABY it's all over.  Just me, random speculating. But it would be an appropriate parallel with "Sammy Let Me Go" plus ...okay, I'm traumatized.  

 

Yeah I posted that pic above.  Jensen is such a brilliant troll. I think he will be leaving Baby to Sam and taking off to wander the earth alone....or he's going back to through Purgatory into Hell to find Lucifer. 

 

 

I took cadlymack's tweet to be "Oh gods Jensen....stop it. You are too hot. I'm dying from your hotness". 

Edited April 2, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

 I think he will be leaving Baby to Sam and taking off to wander the earth alone....

 

You mean like... Caine?  Yes, spelling is intentional.

[catrox14]

 

You mean like... Caine?  Yes, spelling is intentional.

 

Heh, that's funny.  KungFu has been mentioned a lot this season! KungFu!Dean would be awesome.  And OOOOHHH maybe that's my SPN/Arrow crossover.  demon!Dean joins the League of Assassins.

[SueB]

Raise your hand if you started mentally humming the KungFu opening title song.

[Demented Daisy]

Or heard John Travolta say, "Watchu mean, walk da earth?"

[catrox14]

Both? Wouldn't that be a kick? Cas depletes his grace to buy more time for Dean, and Sam makes some kind of deal with Lucifer?

 

The title for the finale is Brother's Keeper, so...maybe the younger brother decides to take on the older brother's burden? Neat little twist on the Cain/Abel tale...

 

 

If you mean taking on the Mark, I was bitterly speculating on this a while back myself but  others pointed out, rightfully so,  that even if Sam wanted to do that it couldn't happen because the Mark is something that has to be passed on voluntarily and there is no way Dean would let Sam take that burden.  If they come up with some bullshit magic to make that happen I will be fucking bitter forever and I will just give up on Dean ever having a mytharc that will only be his. I will be so pissed off.

[SueB]

http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-photos-s10e18-book-of-the-damned-35454

 

Additional promo pics

 

 

And WHY is Sam taking the most dangerous spell book in the world to a conversation with ROWENA!!!!  Because Dean didn't tell him that Rowena tried to kill him and that she's Crowley's mom. And that because of Dean, Crowley kicked Rowena out on her ass.

Which means NOTHING GOOD.  *sigh*

But I'd pay money to have a scene of the two of them standing next to each other without her on a box. (Ruth is clearly sitting on a box here)

Edited April 2, 2015 by SueB

[Altered Reality]

But I'd pay money to have a scene of the two of them standing next to each other without her on a box.

It'd have to be a long distance shot or it'd never work.  It'd be funny though, especially if she was trying to intimidate/threaten him. Something like a Yorkie standing off with a Newfie  :D

[Demented Daisy]

What if....

 

The answer to the Mark has been in the Lair of Letters this whole time, but Sam has been looking in the wrong place?

 

*snip*

 

Well, Rowena has heard the stories.  She now knows that the Men of Letters have stolen all of the Grand Coven's knowledge -- including the way to defeat the Mark of Cain.  Maybe.  ;-)

 

Could this (among other things) be what Sam and Rowena are discussing in the above photo?  

 

Probably not.  :-)

 

I forgot to mention yesterday -- AwesomO, I don't think it will be a knock against Sam if he hasn't been looking in the right place.  Logically, he should look in the "Biblical" section.  Why would he even consider looking in the "Grand Coven" section?

 

ETA  I find it adorable that Rowena is drinking a beer.  A lager, from the looks of it.  I would expect Rowena to drink something a bit more regal.  ;-)

Edited April 2, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Sam......what are you doing???  I need to understand why he's doing this.  He cannot be this stupid. He just cannot. 

 

My fanwank specs are

 

--Rowena casts a spell on him that compels him to do this. 

--Rowena is trying to broker a deal that if Sam gives her the book then she will kill Crowley, which we all know is the thing Sam has wanted forever.

--Rowena has him convinced that she can remove the Mark because magic

--Crowley tells Sam that Rowena can remove the Mark but that makes Crowley and Sam both idiots and NO JUST NO. I reject that any of the boys including Crowley is that stupid

--It's plot contrivance dumbing down all the boys so that Rowena can be the most awesome witch in the history of ever which will piss me off more than anything else. But it could lead to demon!Dean coming back out to kill her ass.

[NoWillToResist]

If you mean taking on the Mark, I was bitterly speculating on this a while back myself but  others pointed out, rightfully so,  that even if Sam wanted to do that it couldn't happen because the Mark is something that has to be passed on voluntarily and there is no way Dean would let Sam take that burden.  If they come up with some bullshit magic to make that happen I will be fucking bitter forever and I will just give up on Dean ever having a mytharc that will only be his. I will be so pissed off.

 

No, I meant something more along the lines of Sam making some kind of deal with Lucifer, which frees Dean of the Mark somehow. Sam pays a price (but not the Mark).

 

When I said take on Dean's burden, I meant Dean's pathological need keep Sam alive, no matter the cost. Sam may have indicated that he wouldn't have let an angel possess Dean to save Dean's life, but it doesn't mean that he won't let an angel possess HIM to save Dean's life, or make some other literal deal with the devil.

 

I like the competing theories about what the "source" of the Mark is, since it's supposed to be the "cure". Is it love? Lucifer? God? Something yet to be suggested?

 

I will laugh if angel grace has anything to do with it because TPTB seem so sure, much like last year, that this finale will be a stunner. People called Dean becoming a demon before the mid-season break, if I recall correctly. And people have been theorizing that angel grace is involved in the demon cure due to the S10 title card.

 

I'll admit I'm curious..

Edited April 2, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[AwesomO4000]

Sam......what are you doing???  I need to understand why he's doing this.  He cannot be this stupid. He just cannot. 

 

My fanwank specs are

 

--Rowena casts a spell on him that compels him to do this. 

--Rowena is trying to broker a deal that if Sam gives her the book then she will kill Crowley, which we all know is the thing Sam has wanted forever.

--Rowena has him convinced that she can remove the Mark because magic

--Crowley tells Sam that Rowena can remove the Mark but that makes Crowley and Sam both idiots and NO JUST NO. I reject that any of the boys including Crowley is that stupid

--It's plot contrivance dumbing down all the boys so that Rowena can be the most awesome witch in the history of ever which will piss me off more than anything else. But it could lead to demon!Dean coming back out to kill her ass.

 

Sadly I think they are just going to have Sam be this stupid. They've already set up the big Bobby warning that Sam is likely going to ignore and Dean asking him to just let it go, and the last time Sam ignored those kinds of warnings, he raised Lucifer, but they aren't going to let Sam remember the lessons he learned from that apparently, because there he is, talking to a witch who he knows is dangerous, with a dangerous spell book right within her reach. (Season 7 Sam just keeps looking better and better to me as the years go on. Season 7 Sam understood the importance of communication.)

 

And I can't imagine that Sam would put his desire to kill Crowley above helping Dean or at the expense of allowing a dangerous witch to have that book. That would be an awfully selfish thing for him to do.

 

I guess it's supposed to be somehow all angsty that Sam is just  this desperate, so it's just tragic that he'll make this reckless, stupid mistake, and they don't really care what an idiot it will make him look like. *Sigh* I guess I'm just tired of the huge perennial screw-up / failure they seem to be turning Sam into. Remember way back in the good old days when Sam was allowed to do something somewhat smart and / or to actually save Dean from something? I miss those days.

 

I forgot to mention yesterday -- AwesomO, I don't think it will be a knock against Sam if he hasn't been looking in the right place.  Logically, he should look in the "Biblical" section.  Why would he even consider looking in the "Grand Coven" section?

 

Thanks, Demented Daisy. It's a nice thought, but apparently they'll have other ways of making Sam look like an idiot - see the screencap above, for example.

 

No, I meant something more along the lines of Sam making some kind of deal with Lucifer, which frees Dean of the Mark somehow. Sam pays a price (but not the Mark).

 

I would like that, NoWillToResist, but it would likely be wishful thinking on my part. More likely Sam will do something stupid... and it will also fail spectacularly as well. Bonus points if Dean has to save him or pay the price for it somehow, meaning Dean was right all along and Sam should've just left it alone and not tried to save / help him. But it's "okay" because Sam meant well. (Why yes, I'm becoming bitter.)

[Demented Daisy]

You know why I don't want Dean to become a demon again?  (Other than, of course, I hate Demon Dean.)

 

At the end of this season, if he's a demon again, and he still has the Mark, then what was the point?  If they're in the exact same position they were in at the end of S9, then S10 will feel like a complete waste to me.  Why did I waste my time watching if they weren't going to actually do anything?  How do they write a season-long arc and then not resolve it?

 

I guess it's supposed to be somehow all angsty that Sam is just  this desperate, so it's just tragic that he'll make this reckless, stupid mistake, and they don't really care what an idiot it will make him look like. *Sigh* I guess I'm just tired of the huge perennial screw-up / failure they seem to be turning Sam into. Remember way back in the good old days when Sam was allowed to do something somewhat smart and / or to actually save Dean from something? I miss those days.

 

S9 Dean/Gadreel parallel!  I'm sure that just fills you with joy.  ;-)

[Aeryn13]

 

No, I meant something more along the lines of Sam making some kind of deal with Lucifer, which frees Dean of the Mark somehow. Sam pays a price (but not the Mark).

 

I would still hate this because then again, what would have been the point of giving Dean a mytharc in the first place if the only resolution is "he gets saved"? Sam pretty much single-handedly saved the world at the end of his first big mytharc. Even with Cas, they are trying some kind of angelic leadership arc. I really want Dean`s to be more than an inconsistently written passing of time that just ends with no big cap-off for the character himself. And I`m talking in the Season Finale, not during so neither neither Abaddon nor Cain count as such. 

 

And I realize I`m like a dog with a bone with this but I want my fucking moment for the character like this and not have it snatched away yet again at the 11th hour. 

[oliverwendell]

Well, I think Dean is going to kill Sam in the finale, but not because he's all juiced up on the Mark.  He's going to kill him to save him from Lucifer.  Just like Cain saved Abel from Lucifer by killing him.  

 

Why do I think this?  Well, all the Dean/Cain, Sam/Abel parallels they've been highlighting all season, that's why.  Also, they're ten years in.  Sam and Dean have died a half dozen times each by now.  This is the only thing they haven't done:  have one brother kill the other.  

 

Also, it would be kind of ironic -- nay, poetic -- that Dean, who is programmed to save Sam at all costs even when Sam doesn't want to live, and who can't live without Sam, actually has to lose him in order to save him.  

 

I'll go a little farther into Crazy Town:  I think, in the finale, Dean is also going to kill Crowley and Cas, just as Cain predicted.  

 

Of course, they'll find some incredibly contrived way to resurrect Sam, at least, by Season 11.  But that's my spec, and I'm sticking to it!

[AwesomO4000]

S9 Dean/Gadreel parallel!  I'm sure that just fills you with joy.  ;-)

 

Actually I could live with that and feel damn lucky, believe it or not, because in order for it to be a season 9 Dean / Gadreel parallel, somehow something good would have to happen... because despite Kevin, Dean was right. Gadreel did turn out to be a "good" guy and he was important in the effort to defeat Metatron. And Dean did also save Sam.

 

I'm more concerned that it's just all going to be bad when Sam makes his stupid decision, and that not only will he not save Dean, but something even worse will happen and even worse still if Dean has to either 1) save him and / or 2) pay some sort of price for Sam's screw up.

 

And I realize I`m like a dog with a bone with this but I want my fucking moment for the character like this and not have it snatched away yet again at the 11th hour.

 

Even though I think Dean already did have this kind of moment - killing Dick Roman and killing Azazel or at least adding the two together would count for me - I can still sympathize, because as you can see from my above, I'm like a dog with a bone wanting Sam to be able to give something to save Dean for once like the so many times Dean's gotten to do it for Sam (selling his soul, getting Sam's soul out of hell, the end of season 8, the Gadreel incident) - and actually have it work. (The season 6 finale doesn't really count, because Sam's sacrifice there didn't really do anything helpful for Dean in the end and Dean didn't even know about it). I just don't want Sam to have to be the screw up who fails and who get's "I told you so'd" - again, some more. And the not looking for Dean in season 8 just makes it all worse. For me Sam is way overdue for something concerning Dean other than screwing up or not doing anything, and I'll take just about anything at all, even scraps. I don't think I'm asking for much, really, and yet I still think I'm not going to get it.

 

I would still hate this because then again, what would have been the point of giving Dean a mytharc in the first place if the only resolution is "he gets saved"?

 

I see what you are saying here, but as you mentioned - it took Sam 5 seasons to get to that end point. Along the way there was also a two year "he gets saved" detour where Sam didn't help kill the bad guy *, and then another 2 year detour where Sam screwed up monumentally after a bad choice Sam purposely made. ** For me, it's not as cut and dried as "Sam had a heroic moment," because his character was badly damaged along the way to that point... and it was pretty much the only major win his character had so far in 9 1/2 seasons of the show.

 

* So the resolution of the first two years of that mytharc was: Sam gets killed, Dean saves him and kills the bad guy.

** The resolution of the second two years of the arc was: Sam fails to save Dean and Sam screws up and starts the apocalypse.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is - neither one of us is probably going to get what we want. My only hope is that Sam isn't made to be a complete idiot and/or damsel in distress on top of that.

 

Edited to add: Crap, fourteenwords, that makes a bunch of sense. And also fulfills all of my fears of once again Dean has to sacrifice to save Sam and Sam is the screw up who needs saving. I'll be so pissed.

 

My only hope for this scenario is if Sam kills himself to save Dean from having to do it, but I doubt they'll give me even that tiny crumb.

Edited April 2, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't think I'm asking for much, really, and yet I still think I'm not going to get it.

 

I know how you feel. Pretty much every major hope I had, the show managed to undercut and disappoint sooner or later. And since I  believe Season 11 will probably be the last, if things don`t happen by then, they never will. And if they aren`t being set-up at some point, they really never will.  

[SueB]

Well I wish I had a plate of barbeque ribs so everyone could chew on the bones. 

 

I'll topic weigh in versus cut/paste thingy--- too complicated.

 

Point of Dean S10 arc: I think we already HAVE a payoff.  Last night we saw him reject the MoC influence.  He was about to stab that asshole who was trying to kill him and stopped.  The Mark is going to get desperate I'm sure, but Dean has been wining his battle against the Mark's influence in the back half of S10.  To me, that shows a helluva lot of character.  And this is from a guy who generally enjoys the purity of killing bad guys.  The physical effects of the Mark may be slowly dragging him back to demondom but he's NOT the same guy he was a year ago.  Not by a longshot IMO.

 

Sammy talking to Rowena: Well it looks hellabad.  And AwesomeO is right that they've set Sam up.  But Jensen is EXCITED about the finale.  I just don't think he would be that excited if Sam looks like a schmuck.  I swear that guy is as protective of Sam as he is Dean.  And he's even more protective of Jared.  If Jared was being given a crappy storyline that undermined Sam, I just don't think Jensen would be excited.  So, I'm going to hold out hope that it's going to be better for Sam than "Sam does something stupid." They've been leading us down this primrose path all season.  Sam may surprise us yet.  Look at what happen with Metatron.  I never saw that coming but it was Sam's plan and it was VERY SMART.  So...it looks bad and may look bad until the 11th hour, but I'm not giving up hope.

 

Plot options: Perhaps he's also reasoned out that the curse is a curse that can be removed with the right combination.  I'm not sure in the extended clip exactly who says what, but I think Dean is saying the Book wants him to do something bad AS WELL AS how to remove the curse.  So I can see Sam talking about what the Book says regarding how to remove the curse with Rowena. She is the biggest bad witch around.  Now WHY he thinks she would meet with him and not pull something underhanded IDK.  But Sam can be crafty, even when desperate.  So maybe the Book has some protection to prevent her from a grab and go. IDK. Or maybe he tore out half the pages or something. I just think he truly DOES understand leverage and he's not going to go in blindly.   

[Aeryn13]

 

Point of Dean S10 arc: I think we already HAVE a payoff.  Last night we saw him reject the MoC influence.  He was about to stab that asshole who was trying to kill him and stopped.

 

I`d count that as little points along the way but the ultimate purpose of a mytharc should be big and epic IMO. Otherwise, it`s just a little character side story that has no buisness being a main storyline. If Dean became immortal, got possessed by an angel, got transformed into some kind of new being, that would be a pay-off for me. 

And despite what Dean thinks of himself, I never saw him as a bloodthirsty killer. The writers, according to interviews, disagree and probably think this storyline is supposed to play on that but they can suck it for all I care.    

[SueB]

Right now Dean IS immortal IMO. Kill him and he resurrects as a demon.  He just survived a world-class spell that was supposed to shred him.   According to Jensen, if he was immortal he wouldn't be "Dean", but I'm going to disagree.  There is no other "demon" riding his meatsuit, so I think it is Dean -- demon or not.

Edited April 2, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Point of Dean S10 arc: I think we already HAVE a payoff.  Last night we saw him reject the MoC influence.  He was about to stab that asshole who was trying to kill him and stopped.  The Mark is going to get desperate I'm sure, but Dean has been wining his battle against the Mark's influence in the back half of S10.  To me, that shows a helluva lot of character.  And this is from a guy who generally enjoys the purity of killing bad guys.  The physical effects of the Mark may be slowly dragging him back to demondom but he's NOT the same guy he was a year ago.  Not by a longshot IMO.

 

And that's great, don't get me wrong.  But the focus of the season has been to find a cure for the Mark, otherwise Dean dies and becomes a demon again.  While that may be fun to watch, is it really a satisfactory ending for Dean Winchester?  Does anyone want Dean to be a demon for the rest of eternity?  

 

So they have to find a cure for the Mark.  I just want them to do that at the end of this season, not after one more turn on the merry-go-round.

[SueB]

Well the Kim Manners' rule was give them what they want but not in the way they expect.  So, it isn't over yet.  I think we'll eventually get there.  Not by the finale.  Supernatural finales don't actually end until the next season (somewhere between EP1-3).

[rue721]

So I can see Sam talking about what the Book says regarding how to remove the curse with Rowena. She is the biggest bad witch around.  Now WHY he thinks she would meet with him and not pull something underhanded IDK.  But Sam can be crafty, even when desperate.  So maybe the Book has some protection to prevent her from a grab and go. IDK. Or maybe he tore out half the pages or something. I just think he truly DOES understand leverage and he's not going to go in blindly.   

 

I agree that Sam is crafty, and this episode proved that he does understand leverage (Metatron *literally* said so). Rowena and Sam both want the Mark off of Dean -- Rowena because she wants to kill Crowley's pet, and Sam because he loves his brother -- so their interests are aligned here and I don't think he would be idiotic to try and use that, especially seeing as they don't really have any other options. There will probably be some shitty consequences to working with her, but there are always at least some shitty consequences to EVERYTHING, plus, there are MONUMENTALLY shitty consequences looming if they do nothing, so...I see trying to work with Rowena in order to do something that both she and Sam genuinely want to do as an attempt to take the best of a bad lot (of options for getting rid of the Mark).

 

Honestly, I could GAF about Sam "disobeying" Bobby, because what does Bobby know? Who cares if Sam decides not to take his advice (or to take it)? It's not stupid or bad for Sam to think about what Bobby says and then make his OWN decisions. This is what I don't get about how the show treats Bobby. Bobby is this now-dead rando, and I don't see why his opinion on this situation -- which he knows basically nothing about -- should matter all that much. But anyway. I guess other people have an attachment to Bobby that I don't understand and give his opinions more weight or think that Sam should give them more weight or something?

 

Point of Dean S10 arc: I think we already HAVE a payoff.  Last night we saw him reject the MoC influence.  He was about to stab that asshole who was trying to kill him and stopped.  The Mark is going to get desperate I'm sure, but Dean has been wining his battle against the Mark's influence in the back half of S10.  To me, that shows a helluva lot of character.  And this is from a guy who generally enjoys the purity of killing bad guys.  The physical effects of the Mark may be slowly dragging him back to demondom but he's NOT the same guy he was a year ago.  Not by a longshot IMO.

 

I'm not really understanding Dean's "evolution" in terms of his control over the Mark, though. How much control does he actually have, and how does he have that control, and what are the consequences that he's paying for that control, and what's the time limit on having that control (he seems to be having more and more -- does that mean that things are less and less dire? But the characters are meanwhile acting as though there's a ticking clock...)? How did he become a demon before, and is he a demon now at all (since he still has the Mark), and will he become a demon again once he dies?

 

I'm not understanding this storyline on a really basic, logistical level. And since I'm not especially stupid, that makes me think that how the show has explained/portrayed all this has been really unclear. Are other people feeling like this all makes sense and they have a sense of where Dean's head is at w/r/t the Mark? I haven't really understood what Dean has been thinking in this whole back half. That conversation in the car with Sam, when he said he was going to stop looking for answers (I guess this was in the Deadly Wi Fi!!!1! episode?) was the turning point for me. His plan to not do anything just didn't make any sense to me, because that seems like then he'll become a demon pretty soon? But nobody within the show has brought up that possibility and everyone is acting like it's reasonable and not incredibly dangerous and selfish for him to not do anything and let himself become a demon again if it comes to that. And how is Dean OK with that idea, either? He was categorically NOT OK with it earlier?

 

Well not to blather on about the same old stuff. But not understanding what Dean is thinking or even what he's struggling with w/r/t the Mark and being a demon and all that is keeping this storyline from being at all satisfying to me, even though I originally *liked* it and thought it was fresh and interesting. This whole second half of the season has been so confusing w/r/t the mytharc. I liked this most recent episode, because we got to see Dean acting like Dean! That was fun! But then it turned out that he was bringing out the demon by doing that (and went a little black eyes)? Idk, it's just not making sense to me on a really basic level and now that it's gone on for literally years (since like 2013?!), I'm starting to get frustrated rather than intrigued by it. YMMV.

[Demented Daisy]

Taking to All Episodes (no spoilers, no spec).

[SueB]

Taking to All Episodes (no spoilers, no spec).

I followed for the bulk of my comments.

 

One thing I'll leave here:

I think Dean may have a plan (like Purgatory) and he hasn't pulled the trigger yet.  I could see him dragging his feet while he feels he still has a choice.  He's going to be screwed for forever.  And the next episode apparently starts with Charlie calling him with the Book. I could see him holding off leaving until after he see if there's anything there (plus see her).  And I think he'd find a way to see Cas.  I don't really know WHAT Dean is planning but I think they are intentionally not revealing it.  It's frustrating but I'm okay with it.

[catrox14]

I think they had a different plan for demon!Dean to last through most of the season until they were reminded of the 200th episode and decided to make it a happy episode and it couldn't be happy with Dean still being a demon.

 

And I think they also underestimated how much fans wanted demon!Dean to stick around. I think they may be trying to bring it back since IMO they truncated it far too early. 

[SueB]

The Werther Project summary:

 

SUPERNATURAL

“The Werther Project” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

CAN DEAN SAVE SAM? — Sam (Jared Padalecki) learns that former Men of Letters, Magnus, once built a magical box and Sam sets out to find it in the hopes it can cure Dean (Jensen Ackles) of the Mark of Cain.  However, what he’s not prepared for is the deadly alarm system Magnus set up on the box.  When Sam opens the box, he puts both his and Dean’s life in danger.  Stefan Pleszczynski directed this episode written by Robert Berens (#1019).

courtesy of Winchester Brothers http://www.winchesterbros.com/site/index.php/episodes/100-season-ten-episodes/10736-the-werther-project

 

Sorry AwesomeO...this is just what you didn't want.

[catrox14]

Sam, Sam , Sam. Did you learn nothing from Seven?

 

"What's in the booooooooooox??!!"

[kimrey]

That sounds really good. I can't wait for April 22nd!

[SueB]

 

Stefan Pleszczynski directed this episode written by Robert Berens

Rowena's in this.  I wonder how she fits in.

 

I loved the Magnus episode, I kinda hope he shows up in some magical holographic form --- such a smarmy bastard.

[AwesomO4000]

Sorry AwesomeO...this is just what you didn't want.

 

And the stupid Sam who needs to be saved by Dean begins.

 

It's pretty much what I expected, SueB. For some reason only Dean's allowed to save Sam, hardly ever the other way around - not since season 1 or so anyway.

[rue721]

Wow, so Sam hunts down Pandora's Box? That does sound like a cool story!

Way better than anything involving Werther's Originals after all. I'm guessing. Though they are the best of the hard candies, to be fair.

[oliverwendell]

 

Right now Dean IS immortal IMO. Kill him and he resurrects as a demon.  He just survived a world-class spell that was supposed to shred him.   According to Jensen, if he was immortal he wouldn't be "Dean", but I'm going to disagree.  There is no other "demon" riding his meatsuit, so I think it is Dean -- demon or not.

 

I think this is probably right, but I don't think the characters (especially Dean) know this.  The last time Dean died with the Mark, he was dead-dead.  Not a demon.  Until Crowley put the blade in his hand.  I can't remember if I said this in this thread or another one, but I think Dean's mindset right now is he's going to resist the Mark until it kills him, and then just be dead-dead.  But I wonder if he's beginning to think he's headed down the demon road even without the blade, based on the black-eye thing in the last episode.  That might light a fire under him to find a cure.  He certainly seems more proactive in the next episode, based on the promo.

 

But I agree, they do need to make Dean's thinking more clear on what he thinks will happen to him.  

[Aeryn13]

 

And the stupid Sam who needs to be saved by Dean begins.

 

I think this is just one episode, though. No idea why the promo monkeys highlighted it as such - I`ve hated more than once what they put out for Dean`s character but then the episode wasn`t quite like it - but I think it will just be an honest mistake.

 

What I hope for  is some Indiana Jones-esque sequence where they have to work their way through an alarm system solving riddles and stuff. Like the end of Last Crusade. You can make both characters competent in a scenario like this and Robert Berens is a writer I would at least say that isn`t a completely moot possibility. 

 

So, we can already take from that the Book of the Damned won`t work either. Well, the writers sure are throwing everything against the wall. Witchcraft, ancient books, now crazy MOL stuff.

 

Ironically, we did see something they did already work. Which was incidentally witchcraft. I know Dean voluntarily turned back from a teenager and it is a less than ideal situation but why is noone discussing even the possibility of replicating the youth spell as an option? It worked and the prize was, lets say, at least acceptable. No major casualties and world doom.    

 

I get why in-show it can`t and won`t happen but at least discount the possibility in dialogue. Say, a person can only be turned once and then never again. Jeeze. 

[Demented Daisy]

TVLine's May Sweeps Scorecard:

 

http://tvline.com/2015/04/02/may-sweeps-scorecard-2015-spoilers/

 

This is something he does every year and SPN usually shows up, sometimes in multiple categories.  These are, to me, the most intriguing and the most likely to include SPN:

 

Number of fatalities: 10  (One show can have multiple entries in a category -- I suspect this might be the case with SPN this season.)

 

Number of possible fatalities*: 6  (* applies to characters’ whose fate is left up in the air at the end of the season finale -- always a possibility w/SPN)

 

Number of resurrections and/or big returns: 3  (All 3 could be SPN.  I can easily think of 3 characters.)

 

Number of time warps: 1

 

Number of out-of-this-world cliffhangers: 1  (Unlikely, but that may not necessarily mean in space.  Could be Heaven or Hell.)

[Demented Daisy]

I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that Dean will become a demon again, as much as it pains me to say so.  It's possible TPTB feel they didn't get to properly explore the storyline because of the 200th episode.  I just don't know where they can go with the story.

 

They can't make Dean truly evil.  He can only do so much and be redeemed.  It's one thing to have bad guys that we love to hate, or even characters who "go dark side" temporarily, but I have doubts that they would do so with one of the leads.  I won't say it's impossible -- maybe Sam's mistake at the end of the season makes him finally "go dark side" himself.  He becomes a he-witch or something, I don't know.  They could save monsters and hunt people -- the new family business.  I can't imagine TPTB going in that direction, though.  

 

In addition, I can't imagine Sam agreeing to hunt alongside Demon Dean without trying to cure him.  Do they expect Dean to be able to hide it from Sam?  Because they're not going to keep the boys separate for more than a couple of episodes.  Why would Demon Dean even want to hunt with Sam?

 

I suppose they could redo Crowley's "lock him in the dungeon until we figure out what to do with him" story.  But they would still be separate and completely negate "exploring" Demon Dean.  He can't do much down in the dungeon.  Just like Crowley couldn't.

 

What am I missing?  What can they do with a future Demon Dean storyline?

 

Oh, I just thought of something completely unrelated.  Season finale -- what if they do their own version of Harry meeting Voldemort, surrounded by the spirits of his dead loved ones?  That could be cool; a mirror of the scene in What Is and What Should Never Be.

[SueB]

 

Oh, I just thought of something completely unrelated.  Season finale -- what if they do their own version of Harry meeting Voldemort, surrounded by the spirits of his dead loved ones?  That could be cool; a mirror of the scene in What Is and What Should Never Be.

 

Yeah. Nope. I'm pretty sure I'd be a ball in the corner, keening back-n-forth if they bring out all the dead like that. It was bad enough in Harry Potter.

 

I really wish there was a convention so people could ask if Dean was being demonic with the college players (being an ass) or just blowing off some steam because they were kinda punks.  I can't say I didn't enjoy the story (the fluffed up hair, the pretend drunk, etc...).

 

I don't see anyone letting Dean just hang out with the black eyes.  So, either he runs off on a spree or he gets cured...again.

[Demented Daisy]

I don't see anyone letting Dean just hang out with the black eyes.  So, either he runs off on a spree or he gets cured...again.

 

Which is one of the reasons I've been so resistant of them revisiting Demon Dean.  I mean, yeah, I hate it, but besides that, what can they really do that would be fresh or new?

 

(That scene was bad, especially Lupin, but it doesn't hold a candle to Dobby for me.  8 years since the book was published and I still cry when I think about it.)

[SueB]

Yeah Dobby. Me *GROSS SOBBING* on a 5 hr flight to LA. Good times.

An idea just occurred to me after reading the Werther Project description and twigging of frustration expressed in All Seasons regarding the lying. What if Sam and Dean 'have it out' over the events of this episode. Maybe Dean uses some demonic like power to get them out of the mess. Then Dean would have caught Sam going to extremes and Sam would catch Dean being kinda non-human.

[catrox14]

re demon!Dean. 

 

Y'all know I was bereft, destroyed and inconsolable when they killed Dean and made him a demon. I have never thought we would see Dean 1.0 ever again. To me he died May 20, 2014.  And I really don't think we have seen Dean 1.0 this season. I thought Jensen has been playing Dean just a little bit differently but not the same as Dean 1.0 or demon!Dean or MoC!Dean. At times, it seems like it could be Dean 1.0 but there is something there that was either too much or too little or just off. And I don't think it's because Jensen has lost the thread of Dean 1.0 because Jensen is too damn good to ever let that happen. I think he's making conscious choices to be ambiguous!Dean (no, not ambiguously gay Dean :P) .  So because IMO there has been enough ambiguity to Dean this year, I think they could give him more as demon!Dean and it would not be out of place or out of left field and IMO it would work.

 

I was thinking about Cain's prophecy to Dean and how it could be fulfilled by series end.  Maybe Crowley and Cas are killed as a result of Dean's choices but maybe Dean isn't the one that does the actual killing.  Maybe they do a flip around of Swan Song and have Dean go far away from the other boys thinking he's protecting them from himself but his absence actually results in their deaths. 

 

Or maybe Dean kills Crowley because he's been promising to do that for quite some time, Crowley's death creates a power vacuum and All Hell Breaks Loose in Hell and demons start trying to possess humans all over the place again, which gives them a reason to revisit closing the gates of Hell.

 

Cas' death is likely to be accidental if it's with Dean's hands or because Cas sacrifices himself. I think no matter what Dean's world will start to crumble if Cas dies. It will send him into a spiral of depression and then he'll make some terribly bad decisions that end up with him dead and being re-demonated (tm fourteenwords) which puts him on the path to killing Sam. demon!Dean might just go so far off the rails now that Cas isn't around to smite him into the sun that he does become the most powerful creature on Earth and only Lucifer and/or Michael or God can stop him from becoming the King of Hell.

 

I think demon!Dean might still choose to be away from Sam, so he leaves Baby to Sam (hence the note) and disappears again.   But because he's disappeared he's not there to help Sam when the demons start crawling out of Hell again.  And Cas isn't there to help Sam because Cas is dead. Crowley isn't there to get things in order because Crowley is really most sincerely dead.  As a result Sam becomes so desperate to save Dean and humanity that he makes a deal with Metatron to get to Lucifier so he can get Lucifer to free Dean of the Mark and restore Dean to human status.  The final scene of s10 could be Lucifer telling Sam the only way he'll do that is if Sam finally says Yes for real this time but Sam is too late because Dean has already chosen to be the King of Hell.