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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

Carver was also mentioning that there are two people who know lots about the Mark, one of them being Cain -- but he didn't name the second person, as far as I can see? I'm still wondering if they're going to bring up Lucifer, at least in discussion if not on screen.

 

 

In one of the interviews he was talking about Marvatron and Cain.  From the TVLine interview:

 

TVLINE | Cain and Metatron both return. What can we expect from them?

 

They’re going to definitely each play a role that is framed around looking for a way to get rid of the Mark [and] also looking for a way to live with the Mark. These are two folks who each have a particular insight into the Mark of Cain – Cain, obviously, being a little more educated to it. They are two of the more logical people to go and question and try to enlist. What they have to say is going to both help and hurt the boys.

 

Edited by Demented Daisy
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

If anything, I think the MoC is driving him to *want* to kill himself in order for him to become a demon again, since as a demon, the MoC was able to sort of "come into its own." But I guess I see the MoC sort of like a virus, and so it's going to drive its host to do what's best for it -- not necessarily what's best for its host. Isn't there a virus that ants can catch but that does best in larger hosts, so the virus will compel its host ant to do very dangerous things (like go out in the open so it's more vulnerable to predators) with the "aim" that the ant will get eaten and the virus will therefore find itself inside a new/better/bigger host?

 

Yes. Actually there are a few parasitic critters that affect their first host this way to increase the odds that it will be eaten by the second host.

 

But yeah, I'm guessing just "death" isn't going to do it. Though actually there is sort of an "easy" answer perhaps, and I'm surprised that Dean hasn't thought of it - though I'm thinking Sam would object to it also. I'm surprised Dean hasn't considered going to purgatory. He could kill as many things as he wanted. If his body "died" for a moment, he might become a demon, but if he stayed there - no real problem. He could heal himself and just keep on killing monsters.

 

Heh - maybe Dean and Sam could go to purgatory for "killing vacations." Okay if Dean got accidentally demonized they couldn't do that, because Dean wouldn't have a body if Sam brought him through the portal in his arm, but maybe they could find a way to make sure Dean stays human... Go visit Benny for a while, kill some stuff, make Dean's mark happy, and then go home via portal - maybe bring Benny topside every once in a while... Dean can kill Benny again when Benny wants to go home to purgatory - win-win for both of them.

 

Okay obviously I've thought about this way too much.

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rue721

rue721

(edited)

It's Robbie Thompson writing Charlie again, and imo he's too protective of her to destroy her. IIrc every Charlie episode in the last couple years has been about deepening her relationship with Dean, too, so I doubt that relationship will suffer too much.

 

The promo didn't do much for me. I'm not particularly het up about seeing a man beat a woman on screen, considering the likely ~supernatural~ circumstances and how much it happens on this show anyway, but I also don't particularly *like* seeing it or look forward to seeing more of it.

 

RT is one of the strongest writers on the staff by this point, though, so his episodes are often highlights of a season imo. So personally, I'll probably like There's No Place Like Home in the end. *shrug*

Edited by rue721
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

Thompson is way too enamored with Charlie and should therefore not write any more episodes with her. I just knew she would come back from Oz with the super-fighting-moves. Just like she was a super-hacker so awesome Leviathans marvelled at her. Then she was the Queen of all geeks and the dream of all the guys and girls in the role playing world. And she is a crack shot just from playing video games. And so on and so forth. 

 

All that clip needed was her doing backflips onto the scene while doing the Xena war-cry and kicking the asses of 50 men at once. It`s ludicrous. And I`m sure Thompson just thinks it makes her that MORE awesome. Because everyone just loves people who can apparently do everything. Uh-uh.

 

For that stupid clip alone, and I`m sure she is possessed or has aquired an evil shadow self or whatnot - look for the low-flying anvils with the Mark of Cain then - I want to see Dean kick her ass thoughroughly. Simply like I wanted Bela to not win all the time. But because she is Charlie and Thompson writes his own wish fulfillments into the show via this character, she will of course win any fight. With wrestle-mania bullshit.

 

Ironically, Thompson can only do this because she is an occasional guest star. If he tried to center a show around her and still keep up his writing for the character exactly as is, viewers would scream for blood. For sure, I don`t like leads of shows losing all the time (unless possibly I hate them) but one winning at everything ever? Gets annoying within two episodes, tops.  

Edited by Aeryn13
catrox14

catrox14

As long as Dean and Charlie are still besties at the end of the episode I'm cool with it.  But it just seems really heartless to give Dean a good relationship with a sister-like character only to have it deconstructed.  I was really hoping that when Charlie came back, her love for Dean would help him overcome the Mark.  But I guess not. :(

rue721

rue721

This is just speculation, not a spoiler. I'm not sure which thread it belongs in? Seems weird to wall off random speculation in the spoiler-free zone. In any case, this is from the The Hunter Games thread:

 

The good: Sam bringing up Cain, actually that whole scene. Metatron and Dean. I really hope something comes out of "the river ends at the source"

 

"The source" has to be Lucifer, right? He's the literal source of the Mark and it's power, I think. If they killed Lucifer than I don't think the Mark would have any power/meaning, since the source of its power would have been "shut off."

 

Maybe there's an actual river, too, like the River Styx? It would be kind of fun if Dean had to follow the River Styx through Hell, to Lucifer's Cage, and then kill Lucifer with the First Blade. The Blade can kill anything, right?

 

OK this is pretty ridiculous, but what if Lucifer were to possess Sam again, and then Dean could chop up Sam with the First Blade. That could kill Lucifer and send Sam to Heaven at the same time, I think? (And the show always likes to have the Winchesters separated between seasons).

 

Too bad Styx (the band) didn't have any especially good songs that would make sense in this show, do they? All I can think of is Renegade, but I don't think that would be any good.

catrox14

catrox14

I don't believe they would have Sam be possessed AGAIN. That would just be too much. 

 

I speculated some time back that Dean could go after Lucifer since he's the creator of the Mark.  So if we tie it to the Cain episode maybe Dean and Cain go after Lucifer. I still suspect that Sam is going to have to kill Dean at some point to parallel the Cain and Abel story.

rue721

rue721

Wouldn't the parallel be for Sam to be the one killed? I mean since it's Sam whose ear Lucifer had been whispering into (like Abel's, though less nicely I guess), and since it's Dean with Cain's Mark.

 

Not that they have to follow that so strictly. They could do something wilder, like Dean could draw Lucifer into himself via the Mark and than kill himself to kill Lucifer. He'd be free of the Mark and I guess he'd send himself to heaven? It's not really a suicide, it's more like that thing of when Yellow Eyes possessed John and John wanted Sam to shoot him to kill YED, I think. Though maybe it would still keep him out of heaven, the angels seem like sticklers.

 

Or I guess they could do a total re-do of the S1 finale and have Lucifer possess Dean (a la YED possessing John) and have Sam have to kill Dean to kill Lucifer (would he be able to do it this time, do you think, unlike in S1 when he couldn't pull the trigger?). That scenario doesn't quite make sense to me because doesn't it have to be Dean who wields the First Blade, since he has the Mark?

 

Oh, wait, I guess that Dean could give Sam the Mark -- they could both have the Mark -- and that way Sam could also wield the First Blade, if he ends up needing to kill Dean with it. That seems a little silly and convoluted, but I guess it could come off OK if they executed it well?

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind if Sam were possessed*** again, because I feel like it's a different scenario now that he was stuck with Lucifer for so long. It's not like Sam and Lucifer's relationship hasn't changed. Also, I think that would be a HUGE sacrifice on his part, so it would be interesting to see how he'd handle it, and how Dean would handle it. Mostly, I guess it would be ~poetic~ for Dean to have been the one to keep him alive against his wishes by having him possessed by an angel, and then be the one to kill him because he's possessed by an "angel." But maybe people would feel like, "been there, done that." *shrug*

 

It seems like the climax of the season has to be some kind of team effort in any case, right? So I think they're both going to need to have some kind of role to play.

 

***Speaking of possession, can Cas be possessed now? Since that's his own body, not Jimmy's? I feel like they've mentioned it, but I don't remember now what the answer was.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)
rue721, on 21 Jan 2015 - 9:31 PM, said:

"The source" has to be Lucifer, right? He's the literal source of the Mark and it's power, I think. If they killed Lucifer than I don't think the Mark would have any power/meaning, since the source of its power would have been "shut off."

 

Could be Lucifer, but I think for Dean the source will be Cain since that's where he got it from. I mean, I get they're trying to be metaphorical and "the source" will actually be inside Dean, but I'm betting they think the source to be Cain and that's what leads us to Cain's episode.

 

ETA: So, I was wrong that Halt And Catch Fire would be a Cass centric episode...alrighty then. ;)

Edited by DittyDotDot
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catrox14

catrox14

I really hope it's that Cain is the river but the river has to have a source and that source is Lucifer and that together Cain and Dean have to go after Lucifer.  But as Rue mentioned if it is Lucifer and Sam has been Lucifer's vessel they might just do a stupid possession thing to get Sam into the mix. Or maybe Dean has to pass the Mark onto Sam for him to get rid of it by killing Lucifer himself...because really an entire season of Sam supporting Dean hasn't been done since the Mystery Spot days and well....I just don't think they'll be able to help themselves. Unless Jared is all I want to spend more time with my family. Don't give me any of the action stuff.  I can show up, be supportive and go home.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

It`s the current writers of lol!canon and "oops". They might remember Lucifer was once on the show (or they might not) but overall they can barel remember canon from last week, let alone last year and the years before are hopeless. They say "the source" and I would bet anything that they think no further but Cain. To them, he will be the source of the Mark, not Lucifer.

 

It will not be complex or surprising or anything but when "hints" are dropped in the dialogue, IMO no need to decipher them. It will be the most obvious and simplistic answer that anyone already guessed. 

 

So, it was always clear that Cain had the Mark first, therefore he knows the most about it and I always knew the episode Tim O. was back for would be the end of it. Maybe they think "oh, Metatron being cagey, noone will ever guess that the source is Cain" and rub their hands in anticipation.

 

TV writers are smarter than that? In Season 4 of Vampire Diaries when it became clear that one vamp would become human, the writers had Damon in mind because they thought noone but noone would see it coming. Then, at the start of the storyline the entire internet immediately saw it coming so they changed it to another character later on. And the showrunner flat-out admitted that in an interview. Which is actually a bit charming if you at least have the guts to say it. 

 

The SPN crew don`t really admit stuff like that but that doesn`t mean they are too smart or creative for it IMO.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

(edited)

It`s the current writers of lol!canon and "oops". They might remember Lucifer was once on the show (or they might not) but overall they can barel remember canon from last week, let alone last year and the years before are hopeless. They say "the source" and I would bet anything that they think no further but Cain. To them, he will be the source of the Mark, not Lucifer.

 

I'm not sure how "current" lol!canon is. I haven't seen any strong canon on the show since season 5 (when they clumsily rewrote everything about the angels and then about Michael's vessel), if not sooner. I think the show generally manages one long-term storyline (Dean) and the rest is a mess. Gamble and season 5 Kripke struggled at stories for anyone, so I'll just take it as a slight improvement.

 

I'm not really sure if it not being Lucifer would be lol!canon. When I heard "source" I thought of Cain, not Lucifer, just because Cain is where Dean got it from. I don't think it's just some type of ignorance of canon or laziness that makes Cain the better choice - it's just the more logical plot rather than getting back someone (Mark Pellegrino) who is often very busy, hasn't been on the show in years, and whose last stint was supposedly curtailed because he didn't have as much time to film as expected.

 

Personally, if I never have to hear about Lucifer or see him making sad panda faces again, I won't be all that upset.

Edited by Pete Martell
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

IMO, if they tried to bring back Lucifer, it would open up a whole Pandora's Box of questions, like, if they can get Lucifer out of the cage, why not Michael?  Or Adam?  And however they do it, why didn't Azazel and Lilith and Meg use the same means years ago?  And how do they get him back in the cage?

 

Personally, that well is dry and I hope they don't go back to it.

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oliverwendell

oliverwendell

(edited)

 

I'm not really sure if it not being Lucifer would be lol!canon.

 

I agree.  In fact, I'm not really sure the Mark of Cain has anything to do with Lucifer at all.  I know Cain made a deal with Lucifer to save his brother by killing him, in exchange for his own soul, and that Cain then became kinda the Original Demon.  But did Lucifer give him the Mark?  I don't think that was ever explicitly stated.  So if turns out not to have anything to do with Lucifer, that would actually be a Surprise Twist, not lol!canon.  In fact, Castiel's comment about the Mark going all the way back to the beginning, to a time even before the "lore," and thus, presumably, before Lucifer's fall, may suggest that that's exactly what the writers have in mind.

 

And I really hope that's the case, because one of the things that interests me about the Mark of Cain storyline is the possibility that the Mark is more ancient than anything we've seen, including Lucifer, Lillith, the Cage, and all that stuff.  That would mean it could be the basis for an entirely new mythology.  Not that I have particularly high hopes about it developing into something really cool, but I think the sandbox is open if the writers want to play in it. 

Edited by fourteenwords
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catrox14

catrox14

I don't think that's actually Charlie.  There is something about her mannerisms etc that seem not to be Charlie at all. demon!Dean was still Dean and you could see it throughout .I don't think Felicia Day is a great actor but I don't think she would play Charlie, even a dark!Charlie as a completely different person and she seems completely different to me. Even Pac Man Fever Charlie was dark and brooding and sad but this....eh.  I'm calling that it's not even Charlie. Maybe it's Meg or Crowley possessing Charlie. Someone saying 'give in to the dark side' and then lying to Dean would have to be someone that has known about Dean's darkness and I don't think Charlie ever did.  I think Dean got played by possibly!not!Charlie and hurt someone because whatever lie she told.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I doubt they'll try to equate that. If they keep it to character, Sam shouldn't be very good at it. He's better at relating to "strange" type teenagers - like bug kid in "Bugs" - and Dean will be more of a regular "teen" since he'll be regular Dean confident (therefore not really "strange" or awkward).

 

And I doubt the comedy will be mostly due to surly Dean. Just as likely the comedy will come from Dean in a teen body likely having to save big, grown but clueless Sam from some situation or another. Since apparently Sam hasn't saved himself from much this season.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I don't think there's enough time for something like that. We have a bunch of other arcs that need to have screen time to finish - like Crowley and his mum and Castiel and his I'm betting soon to be failing again grace. I don't see much of an active arc happening for Sam this season, myself (He was once again a Samsel in distress this episode, *sigh*). I think they already considered an arc like that for Sam at the end of season 3 and ended up scrapping it * for lack of time, so I'd be surprised if they resurrected it now, when presumably they'll have even less time.

 

Maybe Jared was just referring to the Lester thing from earlier in the season?

 

I'll be happy just as long as they don't have Dean and Crowley or Dean and Cain off Lucifer or confront Lucifer. For me, I'd like any Lucifer arc to include Sam in some way.

 

* (and somehow making it worse... at least in terms of Sam, anyway, since they made a mess of his characterization, imo, instead in season 4.)

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I think it was hinted at by Chuck that Sam did. Chuck said that Sam's eyes went black when he killed Lilith. But then he was magically detoxed and "fixed" by God, so that didn't amount to anything. In that case it would seem lots of demon blood + big kill = demon Sam. Sort of similar I guess to mark of Cain + big kill = activated mark of Cain.

rue721

rue721

(edited)

No, Jared specifically said he thought there was still some demon in Sam, which I never really thought there was to begin with just because he drank demon blood I never thought he became a full on demon like Dean.  It was...odd.

 

Idk if he became an actual demon, but he had demonic powers from drinking the blood. So maybe he'll have some demonic powers again?

 

I think he probably will go at least somewhat dark side. Otherwise, what would have been the point to all that "WHERE IS MY BROTHER?!!1!" and setting-up-Lester business? Maybe Sam and Crowley will team up somehow. I gues that would convince me of Sam being truly desperate, since it was Sam who got all up in Dean's face last season about hanging with Crowley too much, and talking about how Cas (and Gadreel) are Dean's real friends. Plus, Crowley's got the Blade and is apparently good at finding things generally.

 

My spec:  Crowley's going to get bested by Rowena, he's going to go to the Winchesters for help, Dean is going to be too much of a loose canon (and probably in possession of the Blade by that time), Cas is meanwhile going to ascend to Heaven a la Hannah or some shit and therefore be unavailable/MIA, and Crowley and Sam will end up working together to rein in Dean. Ultimately, I think that Crowley, Sam, and Dean are going to descend into Hell -- maybe to get to Lucifer, since he was the one who gave Cain the Mark. But it wouldn't surprise me if John got woven in somehow, too. I guess in a way, he could be the "river's source," in that they came from him, he's their father. Ordinarily, I would just think the "river's source" thing was just Metatron bullshitting and not really give it a second thought, but this show is so adverse to faking out the audience that I think that that "riddle" is going to end up meaning something.

Edited by rue721
Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I think that is gonna make the episode more boring and stale, though. What is the point now, lots of comedy filler about surly teenage!Dean? And if they even try equate Sam having to deal with it for maybe a day or two with Dean pseudo-raising a little brother, it will be insulting.  

 

I'd be surprised if Glass wrote this as comedy time, considering the last young Dean episode he wrote had tons and tons of angst.

 

I think the promo is showing us the comedy but most of it will be serious. 

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

No, Jared specifically said he thought there was still some demon in Sam, which I never really thought there was to begin with just because he drank demon blood I never thought he became a full on demon like Dean.  It was...odd.

 

Are you sure he wasn't being metaphorical? Even though Sam was tainted with demon blood, it was his own choices, anger and hubris that got him into trouble in S4. Possibly Jared was just saying that Sam still has some darkness lurking inside him, as do we all. I haven't seen the con vids yet--I usually wait some time once we get this far in the season because I try to have no expectations for what's coming down the pike--so maybe I'm way off base here. I'm not sure how they'd pull off Sam becoming a demon at this point--not that I wouldn't put it past them to try it anyway. However, I'm thinking he'll have a more active role coming up, but probably more like him going a little off the reservation at some point to help Dean. Not necessarily becoming a demon, though.

 

Personally, I'm not too concerned what Sam's arc is this season, I've just been enjoying Sam being more Sam-like than he's been in a couple of seasons.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

From the No Place Like Home thread...

 

Biblical Cain was cursed and marked by God after he killed Abel so people would see the mark and know not to kill him for Abel's murder, then he "had relations" with his wife and bore children.  Whether he had children before that isn't mentioned.  Supernatural Cain could have had children before he sold his soul and they could have been the ancestors of Dean and Sam but I'm not sure how he could have children once he was a demon.  Can demons procreate if they're full-on demon and not just wearing a meat suit?  At any rate I'm guessing they just forgot the vessel storyline when they came up with this one.

 

This discussion got me to thinking, what if the finish line with the Mark Of Cain story is reversing Cain's curse in some manner and also taking away the Winchester "curse" with it? What if this is their way to wipe the slate clean in the end. I'm not sure if the show can pull this off, but thought it had some interesting possibilities they could work with here. I have to think some more.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I didn't mean it would wipe away S1-S5, I was more thinking that what if Cain's original "sin" cursed his entire bloodline to live crappy, lonely lives. What if removing Cain's curse means Sam and Dean wouldn't be cursed in the same manner. Sam and Dean could still be vessels and all, just maybe fixing Cain is a way to fix themselves too. I don't think I'm making sense, so I'll stop now.

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catrox14

catrox14

So far since Cain was introduced as a real person in s9 they haven't even acknowledged that Sam and Dean are his descendents, which BTW would have been a much more reasonable answer to why Dean could take on the Mark vs just being a killer. I could even accept that as why they were calling Dean a born killer in the stupid promos. Since they haven't in any way, shape or form yet, and with anvils this show cranks on our heads, IMO this is either a total continuity fail or they are deliberately ignoring that relationship for plot reasons.

Michael didn't wipe Deans memory about that conversation and Cas reminded us again so that we would accept Adam as Michaels chosen vessel 2.0 instead of it being Dean. To me,if they have Cain explain to Dean he is related to the boys and they are like WOW we had no idea then Sam and Dean are going to look like the stupidest people on the planet for not remembering why Dean didn't end up having to fight Samifer. Then again Carver has dicked around with Canon so much already I wouldn't be surprised if he did decide to fix Dean that way.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

So... in a couple of days we'll have new data that blows my speculation out of the water because that's how it always works.  But for now I'll run off wildly into the land of speculation, pulling together what I see. 

Thesis: 'Sam and Dean' will spend a lot of time trying to solve the Mark of Cain by throwing spaghetti on the wall and see what works.' ~ What Jeremy Carver said in an interview.

 

What we've seen thus far:

- EP 4-9: Plan: Just be cautious and it'll be okay.  Result: rapist massacre.  Assessment: no go.

- EP 10: Plan: call on a Supernatural douchebag to get the spell to remove the Mark (suddenly I'm singing "Into the Woods"). Result: Amped up the Mark, lost control but got a wee bit of data. Assessment: Take what we got but don't go there again.

- EP 11: Plan: Abstinence diet. Try to prove there's good in Dark!Charlie (in Dean's mind). Result: He nearly slipped with the alcohol, Dark!Charlie was a dick and Good!Charlie took a beating. Result: I THINK Dean's holding out his hand at the end and it NOT shaking indicates that Combo!Charlie's declaration of forgiveness and support gave him a sense of renewed purpose.  What I don't know: if he's figured out that hard abstinence is almost always a diet failure.  Alcholism is hard abstinence but he may been to ease on out of this "wear a hairshirt" mode because he won't be able to keep it up.

 

So...based on how they are throwing spaghetti at the wall, here's my expectations for EP12 (based on spoilers and pattern):

- I think the girl is Gretal.  I think Hansel has been feeding the witch (parallel with feeding the Mark) to keep Gretal safe.  I think it's gonna be a shitty life for Gretal and both Sam and Dean will see that.  So, the spaghetti thrown on this wall maybe "letting the Mark rule the rest of your life where you do unnatural things is not going to work". A lesson for Sam on how far not to go (maybe). A lesson for Dean on living just for the sake of living is stupid if it's a shitty life.  That's not a suicidal statement but more of a "I can't hide from the world" statement. 

- As I said before, I think Dean will have to take back ON the Mark and not hide himself away (which is where I think he's heading). 

 

EP-13 ... not sure the mytharc tie but they'll be something

EP-14 It's back to knowledge from a Supernatural force. But I don't think this'll solve the problem.  I could be wrong, but I think it'll be another piece of spaghetti where they get something out of it.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

 

I'd be surprised if Glass wrote this as comedy time, considering the last young Dean episode he wrote had tons and tons of angst.

I think the promo is showing us the comedy but most of it will be serious.

 

That was a flashback, though, This is just normal!Dean in a teenager`s body, the situation lends itself far more to comedy. Maybe Glass is gonna throw in another bit from his own childhood. Granted, there will likely be some angst here and there but I don`t expect: touching, poignant or good really,

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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