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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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oliverwendell

oliverwendell

I agree with you, SueB.  I didn't see anything in that scene that was a condemnation of Dean Winchester, Human Guy.  I saw that Sam and Cas were shocked and appalled at what the influence of the Mark made him do, and terrified of what their next move might have to be.  If there's no way to get rid of the Mark, then they're going to have to get rid of Dean, at Dean's own insistence.  I also agree that implicit in every word and gesture in that scene was the baseline assumption that Dean, without the Mark, would never have committed such a mass slaughter.  It's so fundamentally true that it doesn't need to be said.  Just my opinion, of course.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

About A Boy info.

 

http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-s10e12-about-a-boy-30631

 

It looks like Dean is getting turned into a 14 year old in an early February episode of Supernatural.

 

In “About a Boy”, Sam wants to get Dean out of the Men of Letters bunker and finds a case for the two of them to investigate that involves people who disappear into thin air with only their clothes left behind. What’s behind the mysterious disappearances? According to the network, “Sam and Dean suspect fairies or angels, but the truth turns out to be much more shocking – Hansel (guest star Mark Acheson), from Hansel and Gretel lore, is kidnapping people and turning them into their younger selves to placate the evil witch (guest star Lesley Nicol). Unfortunately, Dean finds this information out the hard way after he becomes Hansel’s next victim and reverts to his 14 year old self.”

 

This episode was written by Adam Glass, who also wrote the episode “Bad Boys” that dealt with a flashback to a teenage Dean’s time in a home for wayward boys. Astute fans probably noticed a quick flash of Dylan Everett, who played Dean in that episode, in the new extended preview for Supernatural‘s return.

 

Don’t miss this all new episode of Supernatural airing on February 3 at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT on The CW.

SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Since it's prior to the Cain episode, I'm guessing that regular Dean has the Mark but when transformed into his 14 year old self he does not.  But maybe he retains his memories, which would be fun.

 

Anything to do with fairies is whack-a-do, and even tho it implies it's NOT fairies, Hansel and Gretel is a fairy tale.  Plus, first born son and all.

 

I expect it to be light-hearted with the usual sucking chest wound at the end. I'm not sure John will be brought up since is IS the theorized de-aging scenario.  Someone must have the inside scoop because this is an outlandish scenario, Supernaturally speaking.  But really, we NEED a little fun. And if the Charlie episode is more serious, which it looks to be, then we need a fun episode before things get grim again with Cain.  Maybe it helps Dean to remember what it feels like without the Mark.  Maybe he makes a choice to go BACK to his older self with the Mark rather than stay 14.    

 

Of particular interest to me is that it says "14-year old self". Andrew Dabb originally had Dylan Everett playing Dean at 14 in Bad Boys. And Dean's experiences were much more 14-year old like (first kiss). So... is Dabb saying...screw you production crew, he's 14!  Or is this a misprint? Or do they change it to 16 AGAIN in Vancouver in what appears to be a artistic difference of opinion.  Kinda interested in finding out.  IF the young Dean is 14 in this upcoming episode, and yet played again by Dylan Everett, I'm going to headcanon retcon that Dean was 14 in Bad Boys because it makes 1000% more sense.  And compared to Cole? Yeesh, I can buy Dylan Everett at 14 a lot better than Cole at whatever age they are trying to pass him off as. ***

 

***Although if he's 14, then he better not be hitting on women.  And a happy Dean hits on women. So long as everyone ignores him because he's too young, I suppose that's okay. 

 

 

I think he'd find some bemusement in being made into a young man and an old man, just like so many of his favorite Star Trek characters.

I remember that episode! Wasn't it called Little Rascals or something?  It was adorable. Tween Guinen jumping on the bed was my favorite. 

Edited by SueB
rue721

rue721

I actually like that idea, it sounds pretty fun! But I've always liked Hensel and Gretel. The bleakly hilarious screwup of the kids trying to leave a trail of breadcrumbs, the kids eating a house, the trick with the bone, shoving the witch into the oven, the parents not having any reason to be particularly happy to see those kids come back again and again like they're Predator...

 

And compared to Cole? Yeesh, I can by Dylan Everett at 14 a lot better than Cole at whatever age they are trying to pass him off as.

 

This is what cracks me up about the whole brouhaha over whether Dylan Everett, as an older teenager, can believably play a younger teenager -- and the producers or whoever deciding NOPE THE SCRIPT MUST BE CHANGED! But then like five episodes later, there's 40-something man playing a 23-year-old, and it's essential to the story that the 40-something was a child when Dean was in his mid-twenties?! OK guys. That's so sloppy that I actually find it kind of charming, though. I mean, my mind is kind of boggled as to how that even happened.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I remember that episode! Wasn't it called Little Rascals or something?  It was adorable. Tween Guinen jumping on the bed was my favorite. 

 

Yes.

 

The last scenes with Ro Laren in that episode are some of my favorite of any Star Trek.

This is what cracks me up about the whole brouhaha over whether Dylan Everett, as an older teenager, can believably play a younger teenager -- and the producers or whoever deciding NOPE THE SCRIPT MUST BE CHANGED! But then like five episodes later, there's 40-something man playing a 23-year-old, and it's essential to the story that the 40-something was a child when Dean was in his mid-twenties?! OK guys. That's so sloppy that I actually find it kind of charming, though. I mean, my mind is kind of boggled as to how that even happened.

 

It tends to be a given in TV that it's fine to cast actors who are far too old for certain roles (or in some cases, just look too old, like that "teenage" Dean in season 4). Maybe in this case they were more concerned because of the subject matter in the episode (the boys home, being abandoned by his father, etc.). I never have understood the need to change to 16 either.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Maybe it wouldn't affect him if he was de-aged?

 

Since it's prior to the Cain episode, I'm guessing that regular Dean has the Mark but when transformed into his 14 year old self he does not.  But maybe he retains his memories, which would be fun.

 

Or maybe Marvatron is somehow able to suppress the power of the Mark without completely removing it?  A Band-aid until they can find Cain?

 

Of course, I don't even want to know what they would offer up for such a "favor".  They really need to stop working with their enemies.  Rarely does anything good come of it.  But they're desperate, they don't know what else to do, blah blah blah.

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Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

The writers have been reading a lot of fan fiction... De-aging huh. This could be great or it could be fairly disastrous lol. I just have one request, and that is pleaaaase no more heavy handed sibling parallels. But there probably WILL be a lot, otherwise why pick the Hansel/Gretel siblings as MOTW. I'm gonna end up throwing my TV out the window. 

Edited by Mcolleague
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Dean gives himself no quarter here. He doesn`t stumble onto the scene of Cas and Sam discussing him and condemning him with an "how could you" look of accusation. Instead he declares himself the monster they just did moments ago as well. I get that neither Sam nor Cas have the instinct to be the caretaker here but giving off a general air of "well, we kinda would rather YOU be dead instead of the rape crew and preserve our moral sense of integrity"? If you love a person, that reaction wouldn`t even figure in IMO. 

 

I credit a lot of that due to the twisted views and general bad writing of the nepotism duo but it`s still not so one-time and out-of-character that I can handwave it completely. The duo might be gleefully think they are bashing Dean to the high heavens but he is not coming out looking the worst in this clip. 

 

I'm not sure that this is what it is going to look like to me - I've not seen the clip yet - but even if it looks like Sam and Cas are considering that they might have to kill Dean, it wouldn't be the first time that there has been a similar reaction from one of the characters. * We know Dean loves Sam, but when Sam was hopped up on demon blood and locked in the panic room, Bobby talked about letting him out to be used as a possible weapon - with the implication that doing such might kill Sam - and Dean made it clear that he would rather Sam die as a human than become a monster. So Sam and Castiel wondering if they would have to kill Dean if they couldn't find another way would hardly be something new in this verse, and to me wouldn't mean at all that they didn't love Dean. Dean wasn't even willing to get Sam some demon blood to stop his withdrawals even if it meant that he'd die, but that didn't mean to me that he didn't love Sam or that Dean didn't think he was doing what he thought was best for Sam.

 

* I highly doubt that Sam or Castiel would rather have Dean dead than the would-be rapists. In the past Sam has considered killing innocent people in order to save Dean, so I highly doubt he'd rather have Dean be dead than the bad guys there.

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rue721

rue721

I'm not sure that this is what it is going to look like to me - I've not seen the clip yet - but even if it looks like Sam and Cas are considering that they might have to kill Dean, it wouldn't be the first time that there has been a similar reaction from one of the characters. * We know Dean loves Sam, but when Sam was hopped up on demon blood and locked in the panic room, Bobby talked about letting him out to be used as a possible weapon - with the implication that doing such might kill Sam - and Dean made it clear that he would rather Sam die as a human than become a monster. So Sam and Castiel wondering if they would have to kill Dean if they couldn't find another way would hardly be something new in this verse, and to me wouldn't mean at all that they didn't love Dean. Dean wasn't even willing to get Sam some demon blood to stop his withdrawals even if it meant that he'd die, but that didn't mean to me that he didn't love Sam or that Dean didn't think he was doing what he thought was best for Sam.

 

* I highly doubt that Sam or Castiel would rather have Dean dead than the would-be rapists. In the past Sam has considered killing innocent people in order to save Dean, so I highly doubt he'd rather have Dean be dead than the bad guys there.

 

When Dean said that thing about how he'd rather want Sam dead than a monster, though, I was seriously shocked. FOR REAL? I guess it's easier to bring someone back from the dead than to cure them after they've become a monster, generally speaking, so maybe it was practical...? But I was really taken aback. I was like, DUDE, PICK HIM BEING A MONSTER! Monster is better! But meh I don't really understand the whole monsters v. humans thing in the first place, so of course I'd say that.

 

Anyway, yeah, I completely agree that Sam and Cas are *really* unlikely to just shrug and murder Dean, figuring then they'll be on the safe side. They rescued him when he was a demon, ffs, and that was like, a month ago in the show's timeline? If they were going to rescue him when he had the MoC *and* was a demon, I don't think they're going to quit now when they've already got one demonic-plague-on-Dean's-soul down and just have one to go. Also, that thing of Sam being willing to sacrifice an innocent reminds me of the whole Lester-deal-with-the-Crossroads-demon thing. Is anything ever going to come of that, you think? Anyway, ever since Sam refused to close the gates of Hell so he could stick by Dean (I guess?), I've basically assumed he had no compunction about putting his brother before all else. (Not in a good way. That season did such a number on Sam's characterization).

 

Oh shit, what if Sam's the one to "put down" the Claire brigade? There were so many scenes of people tied up in chairs in that promo, and iIrc, not one of those people was Sam! Maybe he's taking his revenge (finally!) and tying his enemies up in chairs. I want to hear him yell the battle cry:  THIS IS FOR ALL THE TIMES I'VE BEEN SAM-NAPPED YOU BASTARDS!

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I remember that episode! Wasn't it called Little Rascals or something?  It was adorable. Tween Guinen jumping on the bed was my favorite. 

 

This was the first thing that jumped into my head when we first started talking about a de-aged-Dean episode and why I was saying that a lot of it will hinge on Dylan's portrayal of Dean. It's one thing to play a younger version of Dean, before he becomes the man he is, but completely another to play adult Dean stuck in a boy's body.  That episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation worked because the kids they cast pulled this off fairly well--young Picard and Guinen were absolutely wonderful, as I recall--but the actual driving plot (the Enterprise being hijacked by...was it Ferengi?) was very meh.  Haven did an episode like this a while back and I'd say the actor they cast to play young Duke didn't really pull it off for me in the end, but the case of the week was still fairly interesting, so I ignored it. Judging by me thinking they haven't really been writing very tight scripts or very interesting cases of the weeks lately, I think what's going to make it work is the performances. I'm not worried about it, just one of those thinky thoughts of mine.

 

Anyway, as to the Mark...I don't know if it needs to be removed before he's de-aged, exactly. Maybe he learns to get it under control somehow before this episode? I'm just not sure why they would remove it before the Cain episode? Right, I'm laughing too, forgot what show I was commenting about there for a bit...

catrox14

catrox14

I have wondered if Cas' weirdness /distance/reserved manner with Dean is simply because Dean did become a demon. I remember back when demons and angels were mortal enemies and it was almost like the hatred was in the DNA. It might be just something Cas can't entirely control. Yes he worked with Crowley but he loathes him. He kissed Meg during his year of living dangerously but again Meg had become an ally for a bit. But those two are both possessing other meatsuits. What I wonder is if this might be different because Dean is the demon in this own meatsuit and it his best friend and someone he loves, emotionally he might not be able to handle it so he has distanced himself.

 

I am really hoping that Sam finds some real empathy and compassion by recollecting in no uncertain terms that he knows this wasn't really the Dean he knows and loves. That he understands better than anyone how this was something Dean never intended nor expected to become even if it was Deans choice to take on the Mark, just like when Sam made the choice to drink demon blood, and that Dean is not a monster.  I mean I need to see and hear Sam say those things to Dean on screen. Not vague hints but actually say it. The problem I fear is that Jared whilst doing so many things so well and convincingly, angsty compassion has never been one of those things IMO, and I worry it will come across as more judgment. 
 

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

but even if it looks like Sam and Cas are considering that they might have to kill Dean, it wouldn't be the first time that there has been a similar reaction from one of the characters.

 

I wouldn`t mind if it came across that that was their problem but the acting is IMO nothing but moral pearl clutching and judgment. Of course the writing acknowledges NOTHING about the context of hey, those people attacked Dean and were not as pure as the driven snow. No, everyone acts instead as if Dean went into an orphanage and slaughtered innocent five-year-olds crying for their lifes. 

 

Over on that new show, the 100, they had two lead characters stumbling upon a third in the process of massacring unarmed people, women, even children. Well, he was finishing up as they stumbled onto the tableau but they saw enough and THERE their completely shocked, uncomprehending faces made sense. They literally couldn`t believe their eyes. As a viewer, I gaped, too, so this made sense to me.

 

But it is like this same reaction got transported onto SPN and as a viewer, I have more of a "are you fucking kidding me?" reaction. And then disbelief turns to anger and annoyance that apparently, no, they are not and are in fact serious about it.

 

And I agree that the writers, especially this particular duo of nepotism, pretty much has a certain outlook on Dean. If it were Sam or Cas, the educated/"enlightened" ones, it would be different but Dean has apparently been born halfway evil and now the Mark brings out the genetic killer in him. The only ones showing not one shred of enlightenment are these writers.

 

But from the acting I get nothing BUT judgment. Not horror for Dean, not horror at what they might have to do but judgment directed at him. It was the same at the end of the Fall Finale with Cas` look and Sam`s "justify yourself to me right this instant" spiel. The dialogue was bad already but acting-wise both have failed for me then and both are failing for me now. It destroys an already badly-written scene. If I want something from a scene that is badly written, it is for the actor to somehow either soften the blow for me or make it work regardless. What I do not want is to play it straight and therefore make it worse.

 

Regarding the summary for the de-aging ep, I now wonder if the MOC is gone. Because getting Dean out of the bunker by finding them a case where you might have to potentially kill and ramp up the bloodlust again sounds like a horrible idea. Even if they threw a band-aid on the Mark, why the hell tempt fate like that? 

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

From that synopsis a couple of things:

I have to say, that I can't understand the placement of Deans de-aging episode at this point of the season without it being related to Dean's mytharc with the MoC. And I have some thinky thoughts and crack theories:

-- Dean loses the Mark in the next episode which seems weird before we see Cain again. Cain shows up but Dean can't kill him now? Pointless for Cain and Deans arc.

--the de-aging process causes Dean to lose the mark and it would be the worst solution to the problem yet. It would just flat out suck on principle alone.

--that young Dean has the Mark but it hasn't yet affected him because he is still innocent - ish.. Leading to how does it get restored when he ages again. Also it's bullshit to have a Jensen - less episode in the middle of his mytharc (unless Jensen asked for that time off for some personal reasons)

--if young Dean has the mark then that changes errything.

-- in order for Dean to become his current age again he has to keep the mark.

--if the mark isn't on young Dean at all then Dean has to change his whole life and not become a hunter so he never takes on the mark which NO THANK YOU

--Dean would have to make a choice between staying 14 and MoC free or accepts the mark again and nothing changes.

--If young Dean still has the mark then Sam is presented with the choice of taking on the mark to free Dean from it or he has to kill Dean.

Edited by catrox14
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I'm starting to think that young Dean might have the Mark and be a bit of a BAMF.  And not in a good way.  Not because I think it would make for a good story, but it would fall in line with the general trend since late S7 -- adding younger characters to appeal to the younger demographic.

 

A teenage, swoon-worthy, kick ass Dean might just break tumblr and/or Twitter.

catrox14

catrox14

I'm starting to think that young Dean might have the Mark and be a bit of a BAMF. And not in a good way. Not because I think it would make for a good story, but it would fall in line with the general trend since late S7 -- adding younger characters to appeal to the younger demographic.

A teenage, swoon-worthy, kick ass Dean might just break tumblr and/or Twitter.

And it would go along with the ongoing character assassinations.

rue721

rue721

(edited)

You mean badass in the way that Krissy was badass in her intro episode? That's possible. Glass wrote the Krissy episodes, too, iIrc. I would actually *hope* that's the case, to an extent, because I would think that as a teenager, Dean would already be able to handle himself fairly well in regards to supernatural stuff or in practical terms. I don't think that means he'd have to be written as especially mature or douche-y, either?

 

An aspect of Bad Boys that didn't bother me at all, actually, was that kid!Dean was into playing sports for a school team, falling for a girl, going to a dance, etc. That seems like totally normal stuff for a 16-year-old to be into and not too "immature" imo. YMMV, but I was into that kind of thing at 16, and I left home at 17 and was counting the days until I could go (literally, I had a piece of paper with tally marks for that last year) -- I wasn't especially sheltered or "young" for my age. Well anyway, my point is that I didn't find him unreasonably emotionally immature in that episode. Hopefully they won't be trying to "harden him up" in that sense in this episode, either.

 

What bothered me was more how impractical they made him as a kid. That seemed unrealistic to me because, come on, this is someone who should at least have (albeit maybe not optimal in the POV of an adult) ways of taking care of himself, he'd have to be at least fairly practiced at it by then. Since this de-aging episode is written by Glass, too, I wonder if that's going to be an issue again. I mean, the "issue" of having de-aged!Dean just seem too unworldly for a kid that age who's been taught/made to be relatively capable, independent, resourceful, etc.

 

Or maybe he's going to be an adult in a child's body and this is all moot. Though again, I think that would be completely weird and not really practicable considering that Dylan Everett *is* an adult.

 

Anyway, I doubt they're going to go really far with de-aged!Dean being a badass, though, because it's not like they're going to want to give the impression that Dean has "gone soft" as an adult, esp in the context of him having the Mark and everyone flipping their shit over the brutal/scary behavior that it has compelled him to do.

Edited by rue721
SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

-if the mark isn't on young Dean at all then Dean has to change his whole life and not become a hunter so he never takes on the mark which NO THANK YOU

There's no temporal displacement so Dean is Dean if he's returned back to his correct age. I see no reason, narrative wise, to restore his age without restoring his memories (if they were lost).

 

Dean would have to make a choice between staying 14 and MoC free or accepts the mark again and nothing changes.

This IMO is the most probable outcome.  At the beginning of the season they said that this was the year they accepted who they are.  So Dean deciding to take back on the Mark would be the most consistent dramatic choice with given this story.  IF you accept that as a pre-set goal (Dean to have to choose to go back to who he was before being transformed), then Dean has to know the consequences and thus is most likely to have his own memories while a teen. Further, he's not likely to be experiencing the Mark because then there's no conundrum (stay or go).  So Dean de-ages, loses the Mark (and tattoo BTW) AND he has complete knowledge of who he was before. Of course this means he's rehymanated! (Per Dean Winchester Biology 101...oh I hope they make that joke). 

 

But seriously, what would make him choose to retake the Mark?  Of all the possible ways of getting rid of the Mark, this is not all that bad (presuming they kill the witch who probably want to eat him ala Hansel and Gretel).  It's better than being thrown into the sun.  So... there has to be an in-story reason for why Dean chooses to re-age and take on the Mark.  My bet is that there is a negative consequence to an innocent or to the world if he doesn't.  I'm going to bet the first not the latter.  Like maybe the only way to stop the witch from eating kids is to defeat her and his teenage self can't do it (and there are other kids with him).

 

Regardless of the motivation, I think Dean will have to take back on the Mark because it's the right thing under the circumstances.  And thus he'll sacrifice his potential freedom from the Mark for the sake of others.

 

It would not surprise me if the key to this whole Mark of Cain story requires Dean to accept himself completely.  Maybe with the Mark. 

rue721

rue721

So... there has to be an in-story reason for why Dean chooses to re-age and take on the Mark.  My bet is that there is a negative consequence to an innocent or to the world if he doesn't.  I'm going to bet the first not the latter.  Like maybe the only way to stop the witch from eating kids is to defeat her and his teenage self can't do it (and there are other kids with him).

 

Yes, I think that's what's the most likely -- kid!Dean is too innocent/weak to do what needs to be done (defeat the witch, whatever), so he chooses to re-age and take the Mark again in order to complete the job.

 

That's basically why he got the Mark in the first place (to be strong enough to take Abaddon), so that would even make sense for the character.

 

I picture kid!Dean saying yes to that deal, and Sam trying to race to him while screaming, "NOOOOOOO." You know, classic horror movie shit.

 

I actually find that incredibly depressing as far as a theme goes -- that Dean is who he is, so he'll make the same choices for the same reasons all over again. Talk about doom. Is this show just a long re-telling of Sisyphus?

 

Though I don't know if the show would cast that as depressing or not. Imo they'd be trying for "heroic" with it.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

And it would go along with the ongoing character assassinations.

 

How would a young Dean being a BAMF with the mark be character assassination? 

 

I don't think the show is going to go that route. I think it's going to be comedy and angst, especially at the thought of returning to his normal self if he doesn't have the mark as a young Dean.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

You mean badass in the way that Krissy was badass in her intro episode? That's possible. 

 

Krissy was the reason they almost got killed, IIRC.

Because it would reinforce that Dean has always been a born killer.

 

If Dean went on a killing spree without the mark, I would agree. If he has the mark, it's not him - it's what was implanted inside him.

I wouldn`t mind if it came across that that was their problem but the acting is IMO nothing but moral pearl clutching and judgment. Of course the writing acknowledges NOTHING about the context of hey, those people attacked Dean and were not as pure as the driven snow. No, everyone acts instead as if Dean went into an orphanage and slaughtered innocent five-year-olds crying for their lifes. 

 

The only time I see any sympathy for the corpses is Cas with Randy, and Sam only agrees with that somewhat half-heartedly. I don't think we're supposed to see these people as innocent or deserving of another chance. I think we're supposed to be concerned about Dean's actions, not the people who were killed from them.

And I agree that the writers, especially this particular duo of nepotism, pretty much has a certain outlook on Dean. If it were Sam or Cas, the educated/"enlightened" ones, it would be different but Dean has apparently been born halfway evil and now the Mark brings out the genetic killer in him. The only ones showing not one shred of enlightenment are these writers.

 

This is the writing team that had Cas raped and murdered and then reduced the whole thing to a haha moment because he didn't know what a condom was. 

 

They're just crude writers. I don't think they have any particular like or dislike for any character. They had Sam perving over a dog. 

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I'm also thinking of the interviews with the nepotism duo wherein they do reference Dean's DNA as being a killer.  So with that and what they did to Sam in s8, I feel like what the writers might think of as new mythology to keep the show going is really much more akin to character assassination.

 

I'm struggling to see that Cas and Sam are worried for Dean. I mean I personally am always worried for Dean but I'm not getting a big vibe from either Sam or Cas that they are really worried for Dean and what's happening to him but more worried that he's no longer a good man.  I'm sure the show wants me to  believe they are worried and care, but between the looks at the end of 10.9 and the clip from 10.10, it seems like judgment

Edited by catrox14
rue721

rue721

Krissy was the reason they almost got killed, IIRC.

 

Wait, when? In Adventures in Babysitting, when Sam and Dean tried to help her find her missing father, she was the one who was most on her game out of all the hunters and was MVP in the final confrontation imo. I don't remember Freaks and Geeks that well, though. Were there even any dangerous fights in that one?

 

Regardless, I think she's well into teenage BAMF territory. I'd prefer if de-aged!Dean were at least at that level in terms of hunting (though I don't think Krissy and Dean are anything alike as characters otherwise). I'm more worried that he's not going to be *enough* of a BAMF to be believable, because I feel like Glass tends to have this simplistic, sentimental, after school special tone to his episodes. And don't his episodes always feel about three hours long?

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Her needing to save the day in her first episode is what led the woman to grab her - before that Dean had it taken care of, I think. Dean was also the only reason she stopped being manipulated by Victor in "Freaks & Geeks."

 

She had the bravado down but I never felt like she was presented as emotionally mature enough (which Dean recognized).

 

I'm not what I'd want them to do with a young Dean. He should have far less experience than Sam, and the world of hunting has changed significantly since Dean's teenage years, so I'd think he'd struggle, but I don't know.

 

I have mixed feelings about Glass. Some of his episodes have awful pacing and are a real drag. Last season he wrote two of my favorite episodes of the season, and of many recent seasons (Bad Boys, and Mother's Little Helper). I think he's a bit of a hackneyed writer but when his material has heart instead of just seeming by-the-numbers, it really works for me.

rue721

rue721

 

I love that they spend the intro paragraph talking about how the show's celebrated its 200th episode, dealt with every kind of monster/fairytale/etc under the sun, been on forever basically -- and that it's just been renewed yet again -- and then immediately following that intro, they have a picture of Dean with his head in his hands that has the caption "Jensen Ackles in Supernatural." Cracks me up because it's like Jensen Ackles is just despairing over how long the show's been on and that it's been renewed *again*!

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

Personally I'm thrilled about the potential that Dean may have to learn to live with the Mark.  That maybe what Cain meant about being worthy was that Dean could eventually learn to handle it.  It reminds me a bit like Bilbo Baggins.  Bilbo never wanted power and so the Ring didn't corrupt him.  Yes, he was negatively affected, but in the end, he gave it up.  Maybe because Dean doesn't want the power of the Mark, he will be able to overcome it's corruption.

 

ETA: While re-watching the last episode, the "Dad" theme struck me.  Cas needed to be a Dad with Claire, not a friend. And I think Dean needs a Dad.... but he doesn't have one.  Now add in the sneek peak, where Cas and Sam are chewing over what to do. Dean is the one who makes it clear: the Mark has to go.  Dean is almost back in Dad mode.  Because Sam is not driving the ship completely.  Sam is going to need to step up I think.  He's going to have to provide actual guidance on this, not just posit an argument. 

Edited by SueB
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Oh, it's Harry and the horcrux again.  Despite everyone telling him how vitally important it was for him to learn Legilimency, Harry kept using his connection to Voldemort to his advantage.  Anyone else would have been driven to madness or evil or death from having a piece of Voldemort inside him (shut up), but Harry's capacity for love saved him.

 

So will it be the same for Dean?  Will his love for Sam and Cas be his chance to "tame" the Mark, so to speak?  (Like Dumbledore "tamed" the Elder Wand, I suppose.)

 

Sorry, I know that was practically a foreign language to some of you.  ;-)

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I've been hoping that Dean learns to control the Mark as well SueB. And it would fit in with who Dean is, in My Bloody Valentine, Dean was the only one not affected by Famine. The key for this to work is that Dean needs to overcome some of the baggage he's put on himself over the last few years--wait, this it Supernatural...probably never gonna happen, right?

 

I agree that Dean kinda needs a Dad, another reason I've been wondering if we'll get a Jeffery Dean Morgan appearance this season?

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

But it took him centuries to do it.

 

I have mixed feelings about Dean learning to control the mark. In some ways that would seem too simple. And I'm not sure what that would mean character-wise, because I don't know if I want a simple "Dean's just so awesome, the rules just don't apply to him" fix. Whenever any other character on this show got unnatural power, things went badly. * I don't know how I'd feel about a complete 180 from that usual show position. I know it's selfish of me, but I relate to Dean better when he has human fallibilities, and starting in season 9, I was finally starting to relate to him again for only the second time since about season 4. I also related to Dean in season 7 when he was understandably depressed, but I understand that that was also somewhat depressing to see. While purgatory Dean was badass and awesome, I didn't see him as relatable anymore... especially since despite everything, Dean at the same time had major self-esteem issues that made me roll my eyes. That kind of contradiction just generally doesn't mesh with me characterization-wise and takes me out of the story a bit.

 

I don't think I want to see a Dean who can somehow control the mark of Cain, but at the same time has the hugest self-esteem issues ever. Just no. Miles obviously vary.

 

* The only exception I can think of was Jesse..

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I don't think I want to see a Dean who can somehow control the mark of Cain, but at the same time has the hugest self-esteem issues ever. Just no. Miles obviously vary.

 

That's why I said it would all hinge on whether Dean could let go of his baggage. But, I also didn't mean that I wanted it to be an easy fix, but something he will continue to struggle with. I just would rather Dean learn to control it somehow rather than it just get removed because one is more character based and other is plot based. I'll take a good character driven story over a plot driven one any day. But as I've said many times before, I'm weird.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

That's why I said it would all hinge on whether Dean could let go of his baggage. But, I also didn't mean that I wanted it to be an easy fix, but something he will continue to struggle with. I just would rather Dean learn to control it somehow rather than it just get removed because one is more character based and other is plot based. I'll take a good character driven story over a plot driven one any day. But as I've said many times before, I'm weird.

 

No, I agree. I'm all about characterization also, but as I said... I'm kinda selfish. I like Dean best when he's human. When he becomes super-human - like surviving 40 years of hell memories with only some nightmares and a sort-of drinking problem - I don't find him as relatable, and it takes me out of his story. When Sam got his visions, he couldn't control them and they didn't always help. He definitely couldn't control the demon blood power. And his hell memories made him crazy and almost killed him. Castiel couldn't control his god powers and succumbed to his hubris as well. For me, that's more relatable, because it's human (even though Castiel was an angel - and even he couldn't control the power). So while I'd like to see Dean finally let go of some of his baggage, I'm not sure I want to see him become a super-hero to do it. I generally find the humble superhero to be a fairly boring characterization.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I can't fathom that Dean will have to learn to live with the Mark and manage it. I think he would rather die. It's just not interesting to me for Dean to become the new Cain living alone and isolated because he can't be around humans for fear of killing. Will he never leave the lair? Will he never hunt again because of the fear that the Mark will trigger the bloodlust again? I would rather have him use the power of the Mark to wipe out demons and die a hero. I would like to see him use a superpower at least once since we never saw it happen when was an actual demon and Jedi the blade to his hand. If they go that route I want Dean to be powerful and choose what he uses the Mark for.

Edited by catrox14
DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I agree AwesomO, I don't want him to become superpowered either, but I don't think he has to. It could still have some serious consequences that he has to grabble with and still not be totally under control. The Mark doesn't actually do anything positive for them unless they also have the Blade and even then it only helps them if its big game. I don't really see it as a super power like say Superman could fly and run fast and such, so I'm not sure it actually makes Dean superpowered anyway. Maybe it does, I don't know, I'll have to think on this a bit more.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I prefer Dean human, too, which is why I've pretty much hated this entire storyline.  

 

The difference between Dean and Cain is that it took hundreds of years for Cain to find someone to love.  Dean has had it since the beginning.  If it was love that gave Cain the power to tame it, why wouldn't it do the same for Dean?

 

I'm not saying it's a good storyline, or even one I want to see (reminds me of the years of Haven debates), but a possible storyline.

 

Personally, I just want it gone so that Dean can be human again.  Doesn't mean that would be a good storyline, either.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernatural-jeremy-carver-spoilers-interview-762747

 

Figuring out how to get rid of this Mark, and then in lieu of that, figuring out how to deal or live with this Mark, becomes something of an obsession for the brothers over the second half of the season-- something they won't always see eye to eye on.

 

 

 

Was that a slip?  Did Carver just tell us they won't be able to rid Dean of the Mark and he will have to learn to control it?

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rue721

rue721

When Sam got his visions, he couldn't control them and they didn't always help. He definitely couldn't control the demon blood power. And his hell memories made him crazy and almost killed him. Castiel couldn't control his god powers and succumbed to his hubris as well. For me, that's more relatable, because it's human (even though Castiel was an angel - and even he couldn't control the power). So while I'd like to see Dean finally let go of some of his baggage, I'm not sure I want to see him become a super-hero to do it. I generally find the humble superhero to be a fairly boring characterization.

 

Yes, I agree, I actually like seeing what happens when the characters fail more than what happens when they succeed. Dean's been trying to control the Mark for what, about a year now? And he's more or less succeeded, in that he successfully used it to kill Abaddon and has been able to live as "normal" before Metatron killed him and since Sam cured him. (Hasn't he been able to do that much because of the "power of love"?).

 

I want to see more about what happens if he fails to control it. The demon thing was interesting, but it was very short, and demon!Dean as a character was so under-explored that it didn't seem like it had a whole lot of payoff, to me.

 

Also, Dean aggravates me when he's Mr. Tough Guy, including when he's cold/violent. So I don't want the Mark to stick around indefinitely just because of that. Wait, what would "controlling" the Mark mean? Would it mean that he'd be like his old self, or would it mean that he would be like he has been, which imo is relatively cold/violent and liable to snap? I've been assuming the latter, I guess.

 

Was that a slip?  Did Carver just tell us they won't be able to rid Dean of the Mark and he will have to learn to control it?

 

Not sure if that's a slip, but I do think it's Carver saying the MoC is the mytharc at least for this season and to expect it to be around through the back half. It wouldn't shock me if it were still around for S11, too, because Carver was also saying about how, since the show's already renewed, they're going to be sure about leaving some plot threads dangling that they would have tied up if SPN's future were more up in the air.

 

Carver was also mentioning that there are two people who know lots about the Mark, one of them being Cain -- but he didn't name the second person, as far as I can see? I'm still wondering if they're going to bring up Lucifer, at least in discussion if not on screen.

 

This isn't a road the show is going to go down, I think, because the Cage stuff has been dropped since Carver took charge -- but how is Sam not freaking the hell out that it's Lucifer's power surging through his brother via the Mark? Especially since the Mark is also part of the most infamous fratricide story ever? Idk, I'm not nuts and haven't been tortured by Lucifer, but tbh in Sam's shoes I would be wondering all kinds of things, like whether Lucifer was able to spy on them through the Mark or whether he was able to act as a puppeteer to Dean specifically/directly through the Mark...It seems like Sam would have his own desperation to get the Mark off of his brother even aside from trying to help Dean.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

In another interview (IGN maybe?) Carver said that the boys were going to "throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall" as they look for solutions.  So, I think Carver is LEADING us to this discussion...and they'll try one thing and it'll look good, but NOT. Then another, no joy. Then something works for a while but maybe it needs adjusting.  In otherwords, I think we'll be lead to BELIEVE they may have a solution but that they won't have it nailed down (stay or gone) til the end of the season.  JMO

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Oh, crap. I can just imagine that the "not seeing eye to eye" thing is Dean wanting to do the noble thing and off himself and Sam insisting that Dean not die, because they'll figure something out or something like that. The problem is that I don't think there are many ways Sam will come out looking good in such a scenario, because generally the show doesn't show things from Sam's point of view.

rue721

rue721

Offing himself seems like a terrible idea, just practically speaking? The Mark is apparently immortal, seeing as Dean died with it before and even though it corrupted *him,* his body was still chugging along just fine (better than fine, with super-healing abilities).

 

If anything, I think the MoC is driving him to *want* to kill himself in order for him to become a demon again, since as a demon, the MoC was able to sort of "come into its own." But I guess I see the MoC sort of like a virus, and so it's going to drive its host to do what's best for it -- not necessarily what's best for its host. Isn't there a virus that ants can catch but that does best in larger hosts, so the virus will compel its host ant to do very dangerous things (like go out in the open so it's more vulnerable to predators) with the "aim" that the ant will get eaten and the virus will therefore find itself inside a new/better/bigger host?

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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