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SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

I'm tired of them killing off the characters, because it is now predictable and I'm not seeing as really adding to the story telling.  Plus once the character is killed you can't keep bringing them back because it makes the death stupid.  They have killed too many characters off. 

 

Kevin's death didn't even register as any level of pain, because I just said another one.  I didn't care and not even Jensen's performance could pull me back in.  At some point you stop investing in a show if they keep killing off the characters you like and that is the beginning of letting a show go. 

 

I'm excited for this season but at the same time, I'm very aware of how the show has burned me in the past since season 4...so Jodi Mills death's would make it easier for me to stop watching all together.  Hopefully the writers aren't that stupid and have a handle on how tired the long time viewers are about the death's of loved characters. 

 

And no this isn't a cry to bring Bobby back, I just haven't seen a way that works in doing that.

Edited by 7kstar
SueB

SueB

  • Author

Kevin's death didn't even register as any level of pain, because I just said another one. I didn't care and not even Jensen's performance could pull me back in. At some point you stop investing in a show if they keep killing off the characters you like and that is the beginning of letting a show go.

While I 100% agree that the show has overplayed the character death card, I actually thought Kevin's death had.a greater impact from a long term plot perspective. Dean's fate was sealed the moment he took on the Mark. And IMO he took on the Mark because he felt his actions killed Kevin. Sam setting boundaries occurred after.

I also think Kevin's story is not complete from a natural story telling perspective. They put a question mark on him returning but personally I'll feel cheated if we don't get to see him get to Heaven. And I hope they devote at least a couple episodes to solving the Gates of Heaven being closed.

I don't expect either of the two sheriffs to die. J think that'll be a legit comedy episode.

7kstar

7kstar

 

@Sue B

While I 100% agree that the show has overplayed the character death card, I actually thought Kevin's death had.a greater impact from a long term plot perspective. Dean's fate was sealed the moment he took on the Mark. And IMO he took on the Mark because he felt his actions killed Kevin. Sam setting boundaries occurred after.

My problem is it built up such a strong dislike, that it took several eps for me to start getting over it and it pulled me out of the story.  I had to work to get back in.  This is not a good thing, IMO.

 

I agree it shifted when Kevin came back as a ghost but I was ready for him to be killed again for no reason.  Once the damage has been done, undoing it is difficult. 

 

I hope your right that it is a comedy and a light ep with the two sheriffs. 

 

One difference for me, if I no longer enjoy any of it, I leave.  I don't keep complaining, I just stop watching.  I'm hoping to fall in love once again, but I am also cautious if that makes any sense. 

 

I believe the writers have the right to create however they want, but I also have the right to stop watching if it isn't entertaining anymore.  So far I'm enjoying and looking forward to this season, and I am hoping that how Dean gets rescued from being a Demon is satisfying. 

 

I'm also trying to have no expectations for the first ep, so I can enjoy it.  Anytime I get to excited I usually am very disappointed.  But I'm taking the cue from both the boys that they are enjoying this season...not sure how I feel about Cole, but I will wait before I react.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Sigh.. I know it's too early to judge but I'm left a bit annoyed.

 

I am annoyed that they seem to be out of the gate, diminishing Dean's being a demon and what it means for him to examine what it means for Sam. Just like s4.  Dean goes to Hell, but it's really all about what that did to Sam. And sorry Carver, you might want me to think Sam is a bad guy for torturing demons to find Dean but you could not be more wrong. My reaction was far more "Hell yeah! It's about godsdamn time, Sam!" I'm not gonna look at him sideways for it.  I'd be really annoyed if he didn't go to extremes.  And having a demon try to guilt trip Sam and question his soul is just plain stupid. 

 

I also find it really annoying that we can't just let Dean have his demon side without making Sam dark too. Sam had his soulless side, when Dean was not dark. Blergh.

 

Sorry for being negative but I'm pretty disappointed.

Edited by catrox14
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Since they went with the depiction of Dean as a demon that they did - just one long party - there isn`t much longevity to be had in that. The potential interesting thing would be the Mark needing to be fed but that can still be played out afterwards.

 

In terms of what it means for Dean to be a demon, that, too, I think will come afterwards.

 

Which doesn`t mean this sneak peek particularly impressed me. The content was so-so - I hope the truly dark shit Sam did were the "rumours" she heard because torturing demons is so 5 to 6 years ago as a moral event horizon - and the acting did not help. But the worst of it by far was the directing. There is a time and a place for fish-lense shots (I guess) but this was not it.

 

What I do hope this does for Sam is knock him out of the "I`m so much better than Dean and this" mindset. If I never hear another Purge speech (or the like under a "truth" spell) again, it will be too soon..   

 

Not sure if they might release another sneak peek , maybe this time about Demon!Dean or if they shot all their promo material at both Comic Con and in the previous trailers (personally, I`d love to see Demon!Dean fight a supernatural creature, possibly this guy from the alley).     

Mcolleague

Mcolleague

I'm actually kinda glad there's finally a role reversal. Now Sam is in Dean's shoes. Losing a family member is literally one of the worst possible things that can happen to someone, and people in the throes of grief and desperation make bad decisions, especially when they have absolutely no support system at all. I frankly think the way it's been dealt with in the past (i.e. in Dean's case) has been quite lacking in compassion. Hopefully this is going to be remedied, since they are going this route with Sam? I am not going to get my hopes up too much, but at least it would be difficult for Sam to continue with the self-righteousness after all this shady business himself. They are BOTH messed up people, and I hate all the moral high horse crap last season, since yeah, neither of them has that by this point. 

 

Was the woman Sam tied up a demon or a human though? I had assumed it was a demon, but he doesn't appear to be using the demon knife... but he was asking her to make a call so maybe she is a demon? *confused* Can't believe the new season is almost here. 

7kstar

7kstar

Sigh.. I know it's too early to judge but I'm left a bit annoyed.

 

I am annoyed that they seem to be out of the gate, diminishing Dean's being a demon and what it means for him to examine what it means for Sam. Just like s4.  Dean goes to Hell, but it's really all about what that did to Sam. And sorry Carver, you might want me to think Sam is a bad guy for torturing demons to find Dean but you could not be more wrong. My reaction was far more "Hell yeah! It's about godsdamn time, Sam!" I'm not gonna look at him sideways for it.  I'd be really annoyed if he didn't go to extremes.  And having a demon try to guilt trip Sam and question his soul is just plain stupid. 

 

I also find it really annoying that we can't just let Dean have his demon side without making Sam dark too. Sam had his soulless side, when Dean was not dark. Blergh.

 

Sorry for being negative but I'm pretty disappointed.

1st, the positive, Loved the fan made trailer it really pulls you in.

 

I'm so tired of them dropping Dean's arch to really focus on Sam's issues.  I am still hopeful that they do this right.  So far I haven't seen anything to get upset with Sam about.    I'm also fine with Demon Dean twisting the knife to escape as that is very logical for a Demon. 

 

Now if Crowley and Sam somehow team up to get Dean Human because neither can deal with him as a Demon I could live with that.  Right now I'm still excited but my hopes are not too high. 

 

Also I would really hope that for once the fandom could unite and show both brothers some love...It's way past time and if this story kicks it in gear well I'm all for that.  :)  Yes, I still believe in happy endings, why do you ask...laugh...

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Rivka

Rivka

Anyone else see this?
 
http://www.eonline.com/news/583654/spoiler-chat-how-to-get-away-with-murder-the-walking-dead-bones-grey-s-vampire-diaries-more

 

 

Rachel: What's the word on any female characters on Supernatural this season?
While females generally don't have the longest life span on this CW fan-favorite series, the show is currently casting the role of Claire Novak, a 17-year-old tough, angry teenager described as "punk-rock-pretty." Claire is sarcastic, smart and defiant because of her rough past: she has bounced from foster home to foster home since the death of her father and the disappearance of her mother (we're guessing from supernatural forces?). Even though Claire is always in trouble, underneath it all she has a big heart. Let's hope that heart makes her a survivor!

 

trxr4kids

trxr4kids

Honestly I have no words, oh wait, yeah I can think of a few, stupid, uninteresting and pointless. Maybe Claire's part of Krissy's whole gang and one of them is dating Ben Braeden and I don't care, if I wanted to watch a show about angsty teens I could, I choose not to, so stop it show. If they wanted to bring back characters I care about that aren't dead, the list is fairly short, Diana Ballard and Kathleen the cop from The Benders.

catrox14

catrox14

Oh JFC. Seriously? Why didn't they just bring back the actress that played Claire in the first place? I'll bet you dollars to donuts, Cas seeks out Claire to make some kind of amends. I just will not give a shit. I'm sorry, I love Cas but I want him to be involved with the boys life, not off on his own things again.  Or maybe Claire tries to kill Cas for the demise of Jimmy. Ugh. I REALLY loathe this idea.  Jimmy Novak is dead. Why are they opening that can of worms again?

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7kstar

7kstar

Well it is cute and I did enjoy the eye candy.  Although I would have preferred if they hadn't used Sam & Dean's line from season 1.    But I did smile with the pants line.

 

Not seeing a big way that Dean is being that different with women though.  Seems like the line he uses would have been a normal line as regular Dean.  We know he had a healthy love life in the early years and didn't commit to anyone but I don't see how he is doing something awful at this point.  If the relationship is short and sweet it might be okay but I don't see it being a long term thing.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

For some reason I thought she was supposed to be in a couple of episodes.  But then again, Lisa was only in one episode....and well.....just sayin'.

 

Yeah, I'm really not seeing how Dean saying 'hey no strings attached is that different than regular!Dean although I don't think regular!Dean would say "Don't get your hopes up". If anything, I think regular!Dean makes it clear before the fact that it's just for fun. So I thought that was kind of dickish thing as though he assumes she wants more.  Meh.

Edited by catrox14
SueB

SueB

  • Author

Real life eating my lunch.

 

1) Video- nice eye candy, I don't think Dean normally makes the girl feel shitty.  It might be his attitude but he says it much nicer. I find myself somewhat surprised Crowley averts his eyes.  I would have expected a "tease" comment.

2) I think Ann Marie is a one-ep character.

3) Why is Claire in a foster system?  I thought her Mom lived???

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

If anything, I think regular!Dean makes it clear before the fact that it's just for fun. So I thought that was kind of dickish thing as though he assumes she wants more.  Meh.

 

Sorry I saw nothing dickish whatsoever in this. They`ve clearly been seeing each other and this was not the first time and Dean reiterated something that I felt they discussed before. He wasn`t being mean about it and she reacted no different than "yup, that`s always been clear to me".

 

For a demon, he is downright cuddly and fluffy here with her. 

SueB

SueB

  • Author

Sorry I saw nothing dickish whatsoever in this. They`ve clearly been seeing each other and this was not the first time and Dean reiterated something that I felt they discussed before. He wasn`t being mean about it and she reacted no different than "yup, that`s always been clear to me".

I think she was clear before hand but I also think hshe was correct in saying there was a hundred better ways to say it. I compare that to Dean's goodbye to Jamie in Monster Movie. He was fun and playful but goodbye. With the chastity counselor he wasn't playful but he didn't feel like he had to say something.

Demon!Dean was pretty full of himself, presuming he had to say something simply because she concurred the sex was great. Dean IS confident in his abilities but I don't think he feels the need to tell someone to not 'get their hopes up'. Yes he's handsome but clearly this is not his first rodeo. What makes him think SHE wants more? I just found it rude.

Anyway, I'm not expecting to convince you and happy to agree to disagree. I think it was a dick move and I think we were supposed to see it that way based on her comeback. found it rude.

 

catrox14

catrox14

I love Dean. I love his sexual shenanigans. I love his healthy outlook with casual sex. I love that he doesn't lead women to believe things are going to be more than they are. We never needed to hear Dean tell a woman that this was a one time thing because I believe it was always assumed to be that.

 

Dean is confident but not arrogant IMO. To me, Dean saying "Don't get your hopes up" was kind of arrogant and dicky.  He was smarmy IMO.  I do not like smarmy!Dean.  

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

If the worst Dean does is be a little rude and smarmy to a woman as a demon, I'm going to have a hard time believing he's all that uncaring and/or powerful. Either he's a bad ass demon or he's not. You know what would have said demon to me...he didn't give a shit if the woman enjoyed the sex or not. Took his pleasure and kicked her out. Having post coital chats don't really say demon and/or not giving a shit to me. If this is a preview of what's to come, I say they cure him (or whatever they are going to do) sooner rather than later. They should commit and do it or not do it at all, IMO.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

I think it was a dick move and I think we were supposed to see it that way based on her comeback. found it rude.

 

If I`m supposed to be seeing that dickish, I`d just once more consider it a manipulative - and equally incompetent - move by the writers. Last thing I want is someone to tell ME what I should find dickish based on THEIR values and outlook. Ironically, people attempting to do that is actually what I find super-dickish. Same as their Sam-pimping has the opposite effects on me, their "see Dean as dirt" spiels does as well.    

 

Personally, I thought it was actually nice of Dean and it surprised me for that reason. I did not expect him to be so curteous as a demon. He seems to have it pretty well under control.

 

I guess the more nasty and violent impulses come in when the Mark needs to be fed more and more as Crowley apparently notices by episode 2.   

Edited by Aeryn13
Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

Personally, I thought it was actually nice of Dean and it surprised me for that reason. I did not expect him to be so curteous as a demon. He seems to have it pretty well under control.

 

I agree. It had the opposite effect for me. Dean is a freakin demon, why did he even bother to let her down easy at all, or care if she had her hopes up? It's ruder than normal Dean, sure, but hardly says demon to me. I kinda think this teaser was played for laughs and gratuitous shirtless Dean for PR purposes. Maybe even to reassure the general audience that it will be a *fun* season, since there were so many complaints about all the grim, angsty ugliness last season? A couple of episodes in, Dean is literally stalking Sam around the bunker with an axe, so I think the dark stuff will come later for demon!Dean, and they are not going to release all of it now. But there's no way they can convince me that the Anne-Marie stuff was anything too significant. Nothing about this says demonic to me. This level of dickishness is probably still better than the typical fratboy. 

Edited by Mcolleague
SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

Dean is a freakin demon, why did he even bother to let her down easy at all, or care if she had her hopes up?

Because he's not leaving town immediately so he's setting himself up for seconds? He's not an idiot, nor is she. There's a least some level of niceties to be observed unless he's planning on never seeing her again after that moment. I got the impression Dean and Crowley were in town for a couple of days at least. Why piss her off if the sex was good? So if this was him trying to be nice, it wasn't a good job. Sort of how Soulless Sam was always off when he was faking it in early S6.

I'd be surprised if Ann Marie shows up again after this episode. Jensen didn't even know the character name at the TCAs. and they were about to film the ep.

Edited by SueB
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

Because he's not leaving town immediately so he's setting himself up for seconds?

 

I definitely got the impression that they`ve already had seconds. And thirds. And fourths. Etc. Apparently, Dean and Crowley have been staying there a while and Dean and Ann Marie had an ongoing thing. And they would continue to do so as long as Dean stayed around so he not needed to say anything at all.

 

He seemed to get the impression that things might go into a more intimate direction so he said something about it Actually, if that offended her, he would have just made sure to NOT have seconds. Whereas, had he remained mum, no problem. What he did here was totally counter-productive if his goal was just self-satisfying.   

7kstar

7kstar

Really looking forward to that show, it does look fun.

 

Something that Jensen said in an interview and it stuck for me to and I stole it and I'm telling my students.  He got this from the late Kim Manners.  "Do the unexpected, give the audience what they don't see coming."  He said that he took that to heart and thought about what would Demon Dean be and how could he really be scarey, someone who just didn't care. 

 

Now whenever they put clips together, it always sets up a show that doesn't happen.  They put the moments together designed to pull an audience to watch and sometimes the preview is very different than the actual show.  So there has to be something we aren't seeing that hopefully will make this work. 

 

However, if the idiots haven't watched their own show, like season 1-3  we may be just wondering what on earth????  I still believe Jensen is a strong enough actor to help us with this mess.  It's why some things backfired last season.  They thought the audience would do what they told us, and well some of us do have a brain and can make up our own minds.

 

I also blame all the stupid shows the young people have grown up with that don't require any imagination or thought to understand.  There has always been a mix of thoughtful and stupid shows but it is like they don't understand that people can still think on their own.  JMV  :)

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

He's lucky the sex is good.

 

He is hot like burning. I highly doubt he`d have to go without even if he blew it with Ann Marie.

 

In the end, I simply don`t think they will cross the line too much with Demon!Dean. They never took even BeigeSam anywhere and that was with oodles of whitewash afterwards. For Dean, they never gave any supernatural whitewash and already were more willing to dirty up the character more. Which I think only works because it is a stronger character (narratively speaking) in the end.

 

But as they plan to bring him back and apparently not spend a lot of time on a redemption arc - Dean is said to be lighter afterwards which seems like the antithesis of Dean who feels guilty for everything, unless this time he finally burned out and ironically got better - they can`t take him too deep and too far.

 

The show doesn`t appear interested in doing anything with the arc so they can`t also use the measly two episodes to bash the character into oblivion and then simply move on. So I assume he is gonna be more or less PG. Which, I can believe Dean would not be all about world domination or opening the gates of hell or something. Why would he? He has never been power hungry like that. He doesn`t wanna sit on a throne and I think the last thing he wants is more responsibility in running things. Even hell. He wants freedom.

 

This show simply isn`t like Vampire Diaries where the correct response to "one of us really wants something" is "genocide ahoy, to make that happen". On a show like this Demon!Dean could literally kill, maim and rape his way through the first ten episodes and beyond a slight slap on the wrist, noone would think much of it afterwards.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

TV Line spoilers

 

Relevant bit:

 

Who will be the Big Bad of Supernatural Season 10? –Tom
Would you believe it’s… Sam and Dean? As the Winchesters battle their inner demons — literal and figurative — the show “be introducing, over the course of the season, characters that are very, very, very personal to our main characters,” executive producer Jeremy Carver previews, “and that’s all going to start to snowball into, ‘You are who you are,’ and having to deal with all this and drawing some lines. Of course, there’ll be Bigger Bads that emerge, but the central focus of the season is really on these personal arcs.” BONUS SCOOP: Carver reveals, “You will most definitely see Charlie’s (played by Felicia Day) return from Oz.”

 

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Does Dean not care about anything now? Or does he not care about anything in his past? To me that might be important as to what motivates Dean after his party phase. Is it a lack of empathy or is it just ultimate selfishness that makes him a demon? To me there has to be something far more devious or deadly beyond a lack of empathy which is just Soulless!Sam 2.0. 

 

My hope is that Dean will use whatever power he has to take out any one he deems an enemy be they human or demon or even angel(except Cas of course)but a battle between Cas and Dean would be intriguing. I think it would be cool for Dean to make a trip back to Hell as a demon and find that maybe Alastair is actually still alive and takes vengeance on him. Or becomes the King of Hell himself but only because it serves Dean's purposes for whatever reasons that suit Dean.

 

ETA: Godsdammit. It sounds just like what I feared from Carver. How on earth are both Sam and Dean the villains? There is literally nothing the show can do that will ever make me see them as villains. At ALL.  The history is too rich and too complex to make them the big bads now. It's stupid.  They have too much cache built up as heroes for me to see them as villains. It's nuts.  

 

Unless...alternate timeline (Yes I will keep pounding that nugget into the ground until it's addressed in the show).  Is this going to be Sam and Dean saved the world but fucked up everyone's life in the process? 

 

Of course, Carver saying that seems to be in direct contradiction to Singer saying in the sneak peek that Dean learns to be a hero again, as if I ever thought he wasn't. Hell, even after the MoC he was still trying to take out Metatron which is still heroic.

 

Sigh.

Edited by catrox14
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

Does Dean not care about anything now? Or does he not care about anything in his past?

 

From about 4 years old, Dean has been given responsibilities (then far beyond his age) and basically neither others nor himself have let that go. So IMO Demon!Dean now is the person who is just free of those responsibilities. That doesn`t mean he is ultimately selfish as a human person, it means his Id and JUST his Id drives the car now. Good riddance ego and super-ego.

 

 

Or becomes the King of Hell himself but only because it serves Dean's purposes for whatever reasons that suit Dean.

 

 I can`t see a single reason why that would suit Dean because again, it would be responsibilities. Which is the one thing that smothered the human Dean down so much, Demon!Dean has to run screaming from it. Demon!Dean is the healthiest approach human!Dean never tried. Too far, I`ll grant you but in the right direction.

 

If he tried to grab power, it would be right back to insanity.

 

 

ETA: Godsdammit. It sounds just like what I feared from Carver. How on earth are both Sam and Dean the villains?

I don`t think Carver means "villains" in the sense of how Azazel or Lilith, Abaddon, Eve, Lucifer or Dick Roman etc were villiains. Quite the opposite. Carver more or less admits they have no villain and no overarching plot. They seem to currently search for something to make up to that purpose but all they have is soap opera "personal stories" about "personal demons".

 

That`d be like Star Wars, if you take out the Empire, Vader, the Death Star and the Storm Troopers and just made a movie about Luke Skywalker dealing with his personal demons on a backwater sandplanet. And claim that kinda makes Luke Skywalker the villain of the movie. Yeah, no shit, like who else would it be? Sand-flees?

 

Carver might just be the first showrunner who doesn`t even pretend he has a fucking story before the Season even starts.       

 

 

SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

 

Does Dean not care about anything now? Or does he not care about anything in his past?

I agree with Aeryn, Dean is Id - driven.  He's always been a bit of a hedonist. Now he's a hedonist without any care in the world.  "Booze and Babes" per Jensen.  So.. what he actually cares about is having pleasure.  Having a good time.

 

That's why the Imaginary Lover song is actually (I think) a good indicator of WHY Dean ends up getting a direction besides "PARTY!".  I bet he's not really satisfied with that life.  It's empty and he will feel it deep down.  Not because he feels guilty but because no matter how much you enjoy something (chocolate or booze & babes for example), it ultimately doesn't satisfy. What he wants? Well hopefully it's more than bloodlust.  Hopefully he finds actual joy in something.  Once he does, I bet he latches on and won't let go.

 

Crowley has completely misunderstood Dean if he thinks he would be remotely interested in running Hell.  Speaking of Crowley...have we seen him actually torture ANYONE since he got addicted?  We saw him kill Lola but that was just a kill, no pleasure in torturing her.  And SHE was the one bringing in the bodies for the pantry.  When he went out on his own, he brought home blood bank blood.  In short -- he may not have the taste for torture and killing he used to.  He can talk a good game but he may not be able to be an enforcer in Hell like he used to.  So he NEEDS Dean to be his muscle.  Without a partner to do the dirty work he can't, Crowley is going to lose control.  Demons respond to violence and threats as well as 'a baby in every crockpot' campaign. 

 

I think he's trying to woo Dean and Dean is just un-woo-able regarding responsibility.  Why else would the King of Hell be sharing a room in a dumpy motel with Dean?  Obviously for the Sam/Dean parallel but really... he's desperate.  Soulless Sam would smell the sweat if he was in the room. 

 

Regarding Sam and Dean being the Big Bads.  We've got Cole, the Sheriff's, the 200th which will relook at their lives, Claire, Charlie.... now add in some potentials like Kevin and Abaddon.  By having so much revisiting of their past (good AND bad) maybe they'll find some peace.  For a while it was "we stopped the Apocalypse". But it's the individuals who really stick with them.  If they can come to terms with all the people they've gotten killed in balance with all the good they've done...maybe they can just let go some of the manpain and enjoy their lives. 

Edited by SueB
ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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